I want DPS

[Ossor]

<DIV>Hello, i played a rogue in EQ1 and i want to play the dps scout in EQ2 too. I have lvled a paladin to lvl 21 but i miss too much the dps and i was wondering whicn class would be better for dps among the scouts. I have read a lot of posts and i'm doubting between brigand and assassin but i haven't found yet who of them has the main role to do damage.<BR><BR>WHich of them is the "rogue of EQ1"? <BR>I have seen that the brigand hgas a lot of skills to weaken the mob like stuns, debuffs etc, so i'm assuming that they will lose a bit of DPS for that, maybe i'm mistaken so i ask to make sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Thanks in advance.<BR><BR></DIV>

[Benoz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ossor wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hello, i played a rogue in EQ1 and i want to play the dps scout in EQ2 too. I have lvled a paladin to lvl 21 but i miss too much the dps and i was wondering whicn class would be better for dps among the scouts. I have read a lot of posts and i'm doubting between brigand and assassin but i haven't found yet who of them has the main role to do damage.<BR><BR>WHich of them is the "rogue of EQ1"? <BR>I have seen that the brigand hgas a lot of skills to weaken the mob like stuns, debuffs etc, so i'm assuming that they will lose a bit of DPS for that, maybe i'm mistaken so i ask to make sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Thanks in advance.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Just take a look at the Highest Melee hits on any board, should answer your question easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Benodari</DIV> <DIV>21 Assassin Ratonga</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Etillchou]

I disagree with you there.Yes assasins have the highest solo attack. No doubt there but if you fight for one minute with a mob. Who has the highest average dps then?Okay for fights from like 10 seconds it's the assasin. for sure.But personally i cant answer the question who has the highest dps over one minute in a solo combat.With that i didn't play eq2 so i dont know how the roque from eq1 was.If you played a paladin up to level 21 then i think you have some friends in geynos. Knowing that assasin is only evil you might want to consider ranged or indeed brigand.<p>Message Edited by Etillchou on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span>

[Silae]

<DIV>As I already said in another threads we dont have enough experience with high lvl scout subclass to really answer to this question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All we can say for now is that Brigand and Assassin are DPS classes, the Brigand are more about average damage and Assassin more about suddent high damage and they both have skills to debuff enemies, evac party , etc... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I guess that whatever is the class you'll pickup both will be fine in DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just look on the backside skill and choose the classe you'll prefer to play. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage is not all in EQ2, fun is more important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Silaena - Teir'dall Assassin 20 - Errare Humanum Est Officier (Storm)</DIV>

[Mjk_cz]

I fought with lvl 21 brigard alot, me being lvl 21 assassin, it was slightly more for me i think, but it depends alittle on luck if i trigger really high damage on shadowblade, cutthroat etc, so I agree, Brigard is like average dps, assassin potentionaly best, but can do bad if you roll low damage <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Btw i fought with berserker and that one was dealing lot od damage also<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh!

[Ossor]

<DIV>Ok, thanks for the answers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Now i just need to know if brigand quest is done in Freeport or Qeynos, my scout is atm lvl 9 dark elf and if i finally make brigand and it can only be started at Qeynos i'll do the betrayal quest. Thanks.</DIV>

[gaarder]

Had been a lv 65 rogue in EQ1 3 years ago and I chose to play Assassin in EQ2 because of the cool name <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Indeed I feel myself playing exactly like my good o' retired rogue with sneak attack and stuff. Looking in the mass of combat message and searching for the highest shadow strike gave me the same thrill when I was trying to do the maximum double backstab years ago. Yes there is a lot more choices for me now, debuff, hate control, escape management etc but overall I feel very rougish. Oh and don't forget your poison ;-p

[khalysta]

<DIV>I don't see how anyone can say the brigand has more dps.  The shrouded strike/stealth combo is on a 10 sec refresh.  Shadowblade/ebon blade is nice damage yes but the most damage comes from impale and shrouded strike/stealth combos.  With shrouded strike and poisoners blade I hit between 150-260 every 10 seconds.  The 260s are not the most common but 200+ certainly is.  So to say we win in the first 10 seconds means you don't understand how to play your class as an assassin because we are just really getting started after 10 seconds.  So 200+ to start and then another 200ish every 10 seconds is a pretty powerful class and can rival the mages in some cases if they aren't using ae dots.</DIV>

[AstralDrea]

<DIV>It also depends on what ability upgrades you have to compare DPS. It makes a huge difference. I got lucky and found master I Impale, and adept I for most of my key skills up to lvl 16. Right now I am dishing out insane amounts of damage. Not assassin yet, but things look quite good. The stealth damage due to shadow blade plus the bow damage from double shot and back shot works really nicely.</DIV>

[Mjk_cz]

Yes, yes and one more yes. That's what I love on rogue, the variability , not just clcik and let his hack and slash, occasionaly click on combat art. Rogue kind of need some skill to be saccesful, when soling it's stun/backstab combos, often breaking autoatack, going to stealh etc, in groups its mostly with powerful stealth attacks, finding good backstab spots etc. Really class which suits me so well...

[fre]

highest dps? probabbly wiz grouped with a wiz I usually feel quite inferior, but as far as scout classes go, assassins hold their own as long as you have good food and agility to spam specials over and over.Freak- 32 Assassin--Deviance- Unrest-

[Dormam]

<DIV>For me, its like this.  Open with assassins blade 400+, then 9, 11, 10, here comes shrouded strike followed by another biggie so, 70+, 220, 9, 10, oh here is impale, 110....and you have to realize that all the time this is happening you are getting extra attacks in too from poison and Blade flurry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen blade flurry go off and I hit the mob like 7 times at once.  The big hits are real nice, but I would have to say the DPS defining skill in the low 20s is easily blade flurry.</DIV>

[Nagora]

<DIV>Ok...well, you're not getting an exactly unbiased opinion here seeing as it's the Assassin board.  I guarantee if you repost this in Brigand you'll get a bunch of totally opposite responses.  <BR><BR>Unlike most here, I honestly don't know enough about the Brigand's specials to say for sure that we do more damage.  My experiences fairly early in beta (or maybe midway through?) with a friend who was that our damage was about the same.  Early in the fight I'd have aggro from SB, but then she'd take control after a few seconds in (note I could not use positional styles when I was getting hit, so it's not a perfect comparison).  Anyway, once she took aggro I never got it back, as the mob either died first or she died if it was too tough.  </DIV>

[DamosDrac]

<DIV>Hello, i was just over here form the ranger side (23 almost 24 ranger). Some of the earlier commits that Assassins hold the record for high hits...does not mean they do highest DPS. I woudl be very willing to put my ranger (next lvl) up against a equal lvl assassin over the length of 5 fights. Their BIG hit is on a huge timer. Sure they get several with shadowblade and that combo along with whatever the assassin's 10sec stealth attack is (our does same dmg and same deley only is fire dmg). But rangers "big" hit doesn't do as much but its usable every min....that means on somefights its more the once a fight. So you take a rangers hight hit of 380ish and a assassins of 760..and ours is used 5 times more (60s recast vs 300sec recast). Now i'm not saying that overal Everyfight rangers are higher dps but i'm saying that as far as blow out dps...rangers and assassins hold their ground very well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OK now for rogues. I"ve grouped with several Brigs and Swash's. Sure they can still put out some nice dps but i think they can no where near stand with me through any fight. BUT that being said, sometimes they are prefered over a predator. Don't forget they get more "group" friendly powers with smuggle, mez, stun etc etc etc. Just like bards can't match my DPS (no matter what a few say they can do) BUT they get a WHOLE lot of group buffs that i dont get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now compaired to mages (wizards and yes warlocks) if they wanted to (and would probley die trying) out dmg us they could, at least for 30-45secs. Their powers take a WHOLE loT more power then one of our shadowblades or backshots or whatever. BUT liked ALWAYS wizards and warlocks are burst dps, when you want somethign to die fast you call the wizard not the ranger or assassin (well assassin can take one swing at it every 5 mins). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really i was kinda angry that assassins get the "big" hit because i miss having my named on top 10 on the server but thats ok. I'll live with it, besides i can't stand FP anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Play what you want and remember, there will always be the old saying "The grass is greener on the other side."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Enkan]

<DIV>Assassin do higher Burst damage, meaning they get a few skills that really do incredible damage but then u have to wait on their recast timer...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brid and Swash do consistent great damage during a section.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end they equal out. It all depends on what u are figthing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the question is, Do u want to play a Scout  that does initial burst damage or a scout that does consistent great damage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassin = Great Burst Damage,</DIV> <DIV>Brid and Swash = Consinstent damage.</DIV>

[Maelv]

Wizard spells at 24 : Ball of Fire - 10 sec timer - 250-400 dmg roughly2 dots hitting for a total of maybe 50-60 dmg per ticksecondary nuke 100-250 dmgAssasin at 24 : ebon blade - once per pull - 180-390dmg (388 my high so far on this one)Shrouded Strike / Poisonous Blade combo - 180-300+ every 8 secondsImpale - 70-160 every 10 seconds?Pierce - 40-90 dmg every 4-5 secondsAssasin Blade - my high at 26 is now 850 , lot of variety, once every 5 minutesBleed - 30-50 dmg per tickPoison - 13-63 dmg when goes offBack Shot - 150-280 dmg so far...once per fightNormal SwingsI'd say we doing just fine. I think the DPS wars are pretty dead even between wiz/warlock and **mods 4 teh win!!1!**/brigs..its all situational. Now wiz/war certainly have a lot easier time solo'n. I have a 15 sorc and I can tell you he's bout as mind numbing of a class to play as i've tried. Enjoy the versatile style of my assasin and gotta love sneaking around <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Enjoy your class, dont get caught up in the numbers game..its the reason i made my sorc and I regret doing it. Peace.

[bezerker_]

<DIV>Ya but it is all about timers, and you can list off every [Removed for Content] skill you want to butit dont mean jack because your NOT performing them all in the same loop as a wizard cycling his big nuke and small nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also take exception to the person who suggested we have aggro management, since it doesnt exist. A rogue really cant get aggro to save his life. I can lead with a 500+ assasin blade and still get no aggro the entire fight. The only thing this class seems to have is  dps and I am not sure it is THAT much higher than other classes specially when you consider how much we give up in being able to tank just alittle bit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would hardly even add assassin blade and I think that is really the problem with the class 5 minutes is just far to long of a timer, and everything below that is VERY average dps, don't fool your self alot of classes have moves that can go off for 100ish dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will add I feel eq2 severely gimped DW which is a big problem. They gutted the dmg rating on DW weapons so much that they are almost exactly 1/2 of a 1hd weapon yet you still giveup everything a shield offers, IE dw really is no more dmg than a 1hd weapon sadly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Evacuating is barely plausable role, since it is almsot easiler to run away, and if you are evacuating to the other side of a zone like nek, and you had a group member die your end up costing your group mroe time running back than just out running the aggro. So while it has some utility it is very limited as far as gameplay goes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am dissapointed so far in the assasin it is very bland, and I dont think our 1 big hitting move on a 5 minute timer makes up enough dps when most our other moves are average and we cant double as a tank in a pinch or for a small group at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solution revoled around timers, and the speed in which our abilties trigger. It is pointless to have a zillion abilties if they all do average dmg and you cannot invoke them any faster than the next guy even when he has less abilties because his tiemrs will refresh before you can do a full cycle, not to mention many of your skills are just not good dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again I think even though this class gets the records for biggest hits we are not very much higher than an average dps class. IMHO you are better off with abezerker than a rogue or a wizard, we just dont add that much, and when crap hits the fan we can literally do NOTHING do try to save the group, can get aggro, cant put on the gas to help drop things fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 27 I am considering strongly rerolling.</DIV>

[Dormam]

<DIV>Then reroll.  In groups I get comments all the time on how much damage I am dishing out.  Got a nice comment just tonight when I was grouped with a level 30 monk..and I am a level 25 assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bezerkers dont put out as much DPS as we do.  Their best attacks do about as much damage as our 3rd best shot on the same timer.  But they sure can get aggro a lot quicker.  My regular playing group contains a guardian, bezerker, Sk, inquisitor and me all around level 27.  If the guardian keeps aggro we do fine, however, sometimes he runs into problems with the zerker getting aggro.  The zerker just cant take the damage like the guardian can and often he can get torn up quick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But where our DPS really begins to multiply is when we get the group buffs that classes like the zerker give us.  Pump our stats and give us group buffs we become little buzzsaws of damage dealing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Havent grouped much with rangers so I cant really comment on it.  From what I can see is that they have a wider DPS avg than we do and bows are much slower than the fast dual wield weps we prefer.</DIV>

[Aneast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bezerker_01 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ya but it is all about timers, and you can list off every [Removed for Content] skill you want to butit dont mean jack because your NOT performing them all in the same loop as a wizard cycling his big nuke and small nukes.<BR><BR><FONT color=#3300ff>It's all about playing the Timers right that can give an Assasin the edge in DPS.  Our regular Cycle may not match up one on one with A Wiz's cycle of  Large Nuke --> Small Nuke, but all of our other abilities that we use in the cousre of a fight(Impale, Bleed, poison ...) that put us over the top at the end of the fight.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also take exception to the person who suggested we have aggro management, since it doesnt exist. A rogue really cant get aggro to save his life. I can lead with a 500+ assasin blade and still get no aggro the entire fight. The only thing this class seems to have is  dps and I am not sure it is THAT much higher than other classes specially when you consider how much we give up in being able to tank just alittle bit. </DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#3300ff>Umm.. Aggro management has much more to do with getting rid of aggro if we get it then it does with getting it in the first place.  Our line of abilities that reduce hate(Aggro) can be very effective.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would hardly even add assassin blade and I think that is really the problem with the class 5 minutes is just far to long of a timer, and everything below that is VERY average dps, don't fool your self alot of classes have moves that can go off for 100ish dmg.<BR><BR><FONT color=#3300ff>Again, it is the timing of how we use our abilities that give us an edge in DPS.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will add I feel eq2 severely gimped DW which is a big problem. They gutted the dmg rating on DW weapons so much that they are almost exactly 1/2 of a 1hd weapon yet you still giveup everything a shield offers, IE dw really is no more dmg than a 1hd weapon sadly.<BR><BR><FONT color=#3300ff>Granted the Dmg rating for DW is lower then 1HD, but so is the delay so the end dmg out put is greater then 1HD.   Having a high parry ability helps with the loss of a shield.  The truth of the matter is that when we are grouped (which is what SOE wants) we aren't supposed to be getting hit, so not having a shield is not a problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Evacuating is barely plausable role, since it is almsot easiler to run away, and if you are evacuating to the other side of a zone like nek, and you had a group member die your end up costing your group mroe time running back than just out running the aggro. So while it has some utility it is very limited as far as gameplay goes.<BR><BR><FONT color=#3300ff>Yep, but then again that's all it is supposed to be is a Utility.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am dissapointed so far in the assasin it is very bland, and I dont think our 1 big hitting move on a 5 minute timer makes up enough dps when most our other moves are average and we cant double as a tank in a pinch or for a small group at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solution revoled around timers, and the speed in which our abilties trigger. It is pointless to have a zillion abilties if they all do average dmg and you cannot invoke them any faster than the next guy even when he has less abilties because his tiemrs will refresh before you can do a full cycle, not to mention many of your skills are just not good dmg.<BR><BR><FONT color=#3300ff>For the most part our Bread and butter abilities are fine with the timer that they are on.  The utility abilities that we don't need more then once every fight are on longer cycles.   </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again I think even though this class gets the records for biggest hits we are not very much higher than an average dps class. IMHO you are better off with abezerker than a rogue or a wizard, we just dont add that much, and when crap hits the fan we can literally do NOTHING do try to save the group, can get aggro, cant put on the gas to help drop things fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 27 I am considering strongly rerolling.<BR><BR><FONT color=#3300ff>Yeah but we can Evacuate:smileywink:<BR>Basically it comes down to playing what you like.    All classes have their limitations you just have to find a class where you can live with those limitations.  For me I'm happy with the Assasin and enjoy the play style.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[bezerker_]

<DIV>double posty bleh</DIV><p>Message Edited by bezerker_01 on <span class=date_text>12-08-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:07 AM</span>

[bezerker_]

<DIV>" <DIV>Then reroll.  In groups I get comments all the time on how much damage I am dishing out.  Got a nice comment just tonight when I was grouped with a level 30 monk..and I am a level 25 assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bezerkers dont put out as much DPS as we do. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>people just dont get it and neither do you. Anyone with sense would not be impressed with an assasin dps. People do get the wow factor from some big hits. You will see when the people start figuring out dps, we are simply not very good. We are barely above a bezerker, and a zerker for example adds immense more value to a group. That is it PERIOD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you prolly dont even know what your best dps move is. tip it isnt assasin blade or ebon blade, infact ironically assasin blade the one we get big hits with is one of the lowest dps moves we have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont mean to be short with you but i have played these games for too long and have heard far ot many people make  random opinons from the heart with perception  acting like it is fact.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a class that pretty much onyl brings dps to a group with almsot zero utility beyond evac  we should have a solid dps lead over classes that have dps plus utilty plus other things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reember those same buffs that improve us also improve everyone else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>to the other guy there is no magic or leet skills to work the timers, if you use daggers you lead with impale to get the  perice debuff off, then you cycle shrouded with assassin blade, and ebon blade poisoner blade, slipping in  sneak attacks in between shrouded timer, refresh impale. That is about as good as it gets for dps and you will chew through power at a decent rate. Also no if you compare the delay on the fast 1h weapon is similar to the DW weapons but the dmg rating is almsot double.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless things change alot at 30+ this class really wont serve its roll beyond evacing; the HO are too weak for that to play a significant role for us either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This class needs some timers reduction on our big moves and our general moves really need faster trigger times, as an assasin all we offer is dps it should be significantly better than other classes imho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems like they went overboard trying to fix every little thing in eq1 that people nagged about, and rogue dmg was no exception, the heavy nerf to DW is a prime example.  Anyrate hopefully it will get better, or they make a few changes for the scouts, cause right now they are one of the weaker classes in the game that really doesnt add much to a group that somoen else couldnt add almsot as well plus alot more things we cant.</DIV></DIV>

[Dormam]

<DIV> <DIV>"people just dont get it and neither do you. Anyone with sense would not be impressed with an assasin dps. People do get the wow factor from some big hits. You will see when the people start figuring out dps, we are simply not very good. We are barely above a bezerker, and a zerker for example adds immense more value to a group. That is it PERIOD."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, if I dont get it lets start using some impircal evidence to back up your claim.  Compared to my bezerker buddy, we are not just barely above them as a DPS class, we are significantly above them.  My play group really likes having me around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"you prolly dont even know what your best dps move is. tip it isnt assasin blade or ebon blade, infact ironically assasin blade the one we get big hits with is one of the lowest dps moves we have."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do you figure?  Its called Damage Per Second if you didnt realize it and the highest damaging move you can do in the shortest amount of time will be your largest DPS move.  I can hit for over 700 points of damage in that one second...700 DPS to start out with is something a berzerker just wont be able to catch up to.  Especially when I can follow that immediately with another stealth move by doing shrouded strike/ebonblade combo and hit for well over 400 more damage.  Then I can spam shrouded strike, poisoners blade and my regular moves the rest of the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"dont mean to be short with you but i have played these games for too long and have heard far ot many people make  random opinons from the heart with perception  acting like it is fact."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Be short with me all you want but you need to keep an open mind as well.  Show me evidence where the bezerker does better DPS than we do and I will admit I am wrong.  BTW I am a 41 year old gamer vet and have been playing these type of games for years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"to the other guy there is no magic or leet skills to work the timers, if you use daggers you lead with impale to get the  perice debuff off, then you cycle shrouded with assassin blade, and ebon blade poisoner blade, slipping in  sneak attacks in between shrouded timer, refresh impale. That is about as good as it gets for dps and you will chew through power at a decent rate. Also no if you compare the delay on the fast 1h weapon is similar to the DW weapons but the dmg rating is almsot double."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have you ever compared 1h weps to dual wield weps in actual cmbat?  Although their listed damage is about double a dw weapon your ACTUAL damage is almost exactly the same.  Using blade flurry and poisons I would much rather use two dual wield weapons.  Using a 1 hander will cut your DPS down significantly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Reember those same buffs that improve us also improve everyone else"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want to play a buff class play a shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"Unless things change alot at 30+ this class really wont serve its roll beyond evacing; the HO are too weak for that to play a significant role for us either."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I think you are completely wrong here.  I finally got into a group that really wanted to do big HOs.  They had me initiating a chain that led up HOs that needed all 4 classes to complete.  The effects were awesome.  We were handling double arrow up yellow mobs without slowing.  By using text macros to tell folks what was coming we were able to do the big HOs twice a fight.  Being able to pick and flip the HOs in a fight is a real nice feature of our class, but not the defining part of our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"the heavy nerf to DW is a prime example"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no nerf.  Even most bezerkers I see go around using DW weapons.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>