Ranged auto-attack, is it really important ?

[EQ2Magroo]

As a result of Rothgar's comment on the arrow thread i.e. "Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.", I've begun to question my assumption that actually ranged AA is very important to a Ranger.I've noticed that sometimes when in ranged mode, my character still seems to switch to melee animation and does some damage. I assume this is a proc or something going off. Now according to latest patch notes, I noticed they have changed bows to not proc on melee (and vice versa ??) so perhaps this won't happen any more.My question is, when people have analysed their ranged AA DPS, are they 100% sure that the damage they are assigning to ranged AA is in fact from that, and not a melee proc going off ?The reason I ask is that this has raised 2 interesting possibilites in my mind:1. The dev responsible for ranger arrow changes and DPS calculations has no idea how rangers do their damage.2. The devs are right and we've all been calculating our ranged DPS wrongly. Oh, and as an aside we might have just seen a stealth nerf here, as that melee damage in ranged mode has just been "fixed".<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Magroo wrote:<BR>I've noticed that sometimes when in ranged mode, my character still seems to switch to melee animation and does some damage. I assume this is a proc or something going off. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think that happens when you crit.  At least, it's what it looks like to me.<BR>

[Lev]

Some proc animations switch to melee, but generally it's a sligthly buggy animation change.. for instance if you use melee and then switch to ranged auto attack you can often see you throwing the arrow with a melee attack animation.And to clearify, Auto attack is probably the most important part of our dps so do not be confused by the dev post as it is wrong.<div></div>

[Anxi]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Link to the other thread: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=44198&page=5" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=44198&page=5</A></P> <P> </P> <DIV>No matter how you word it decreasing the damage of summoned arrows IS a nerf, period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We'll still have to pay to deal adqeuate damage, something no other class has to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On to the actual topic, you say our auto-attack damage is NOT a large part of our damage and the CAs are a larger part. This might be true but auto-attack is still a SIGNIFICANT part of our DPS, any decrease to that output put's us further behind DPS wise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also say we will never be required to purchase arrows. This statement is true we're not REQUIRED to purchase arrows BUT we have HAVE to if wish to maintain a reasonable damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, I think it would be a good idea for rangers to post parses of just their damage so we can show the Devs how much damage is actually coming from our ranged auto-attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>On a partial raid of lyceum last nite (I was late logging in due to the update time) piercing did 41% of my damage.  14% came from caustic poison.  10% came from quick shot.  All the CA's fell below this, but safe to assume they will add up to the remainder, which is only 35%.  This is LESS damage than autoattack not more. FYI, I used vendor bought adamantine arrows.  I remember my first raid, and another ranger telling me, make sure you time your CA's to let your autoattack hit, it'll boost youR dps waY UP.</P> <P>How true.</P>

[Ranja]

<div></div><div></div>I have been having PM conversations with Rothgar and they are very discouraging. He thinks that we need to spam our CAs for max DPS and that auto-attack is not the majority of our DPS. He said 30%-40% of damage is not the majority. I politely pointed out that when all of our other arts account for between 5%-10% of damage then AA is the majority of our damage from one skill.He also was not aware that our summon arrow skill was behind a tier. I brought it to his attention and he said level 60 arrows are good for t7. Completely missing the point that in all tiers but this one we are using arrows from one tier down. t6 we use fulginate, t5 we use feyiron, t4 carbonite. I was amazed he was not aware of this. I also pointed out in t8 we will be stuck using t7 arrows and then be forced to buy arrows from woodworkers. T8 will be were the real gouging begins.If they fix the tier summoning mechanic and leave summoned as is and make player crafted a little better this change I can swallow. Without switching our summon arrows problem, only in T7 will we not have to buy arrows from woodworkers.Some excerpts from our conversation: My question in italics his answer in bold.<i>7. At the very least make our summon arrows like summon tier approrpiate arrows. Make it a spell that does not upgrade (like cheapshot) but summons the arrows from the tier you are currently in.</i><b>Level 60 arrows are actually the proper tier for 60-70. </b><i>One final question: Have you even played the ranger class to level 70? in groups, you spam CAs so you auto-attack is low. However, once you raid you are auto-attacking most of the time.</i><b>I 100% completely disagree that in a raid you are auto-attacking most of the time. If you are not spamming your CA's in a raid then you are not doing your best dps.</b>I dont think he realizes his auto-attack hits for more than all but 3 of his CAs. But he is using the Wrymdestroyer Bow so that tells you alot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by bentgate on <span class="date_text">02-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">02:10 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by bentgate on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

[Dirtgirl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR><BR><FONT color=#ff3300 size=4>1. The dev responsible for ranger arrow changes and DPS calculations has no idea how rangers do their damage.</FONT><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ffcc66>Ding ding ding....We have ourselves a winner!!!!</FONT>

[Anxi]

<DIV>Were you meleeing at all? I have two piercing weapons for dual wielding so all of my auto-attack damage shows up as pierce. If I jump into melee results would be skewed, because the melee damage would also show up as piercing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your PMs with Rothgar do sound disappointing however this is exactly why we need to produce DPS numbers/screenshots of parses indicating where our damage is coming from. We have to back up our words with evidence or else they're just that, words. I'll wash through my logs which will be mostly soloing/grouping T7 content and see what I see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to mention if your spamming CAs you will STILL have an auto-attack go off in-bewteen those CAs where appropiate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully devs will address the summon arrow skill being a tier behind. Just deviate from the every 12 - 14 levels upgrade and give it to us every 10 starting at level 20.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Badaxe Ba]

If your melee question was addressed to me, I will say yes, but not much.  After all, meleeing isn't a Rangers strongest attribute (ROFLMAO).  I also only have one melee pierce hand weapon, as the other is slashing. Checking back, slashing barely blipped the damage meter on my parser, not even enough to hit 1% overall. so out of the 41% total piercing damage I did, maybe 1% of that was at melee range.

[Anxi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badaxe Bart wrote:<BR> If your melee question was addressed to me, I will say yes, but not much.  After all, meleeing isn't a Rangers strongest attribute (ROFLMAO).  I also only have one melee pierce hand weapon, as the other is slashing. Checking back, slashing barely blipped the damage meter on my parser, not even enough to hit 1% overall. so out of the 41% total piercing damage I did, maybe 1% of that was at melee range.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yup that's exactly what I was wondering. Should've made myself more clear.

[El Dominion]

<P>On a full Lyceum run tonight we had 3 rangers, a very unusual occurance.</P> <P>I had better gear than a fellow ranger that out dps'd me by 200 dps on the zone wide parse.</P> <P>I also noticed is fighting style was signifficantly different to mine, I favour the sweet spot spamming everything i've got, feeling that I have worked hard for my dps, whist he never meled the mobs once that i saw.</P> <P>On investigating the zone wide parse he had 41% piercing damage whilst i had 22% (and some of that must have come from my 2 DW piercing weapons)</P> <P>Caustic was about the same around 12-14%</P> <P> </P> <P>By the Dev's assumptions I should be out dps'ing him due to better geat and the "best" fighting style, but this is clearly not the case. The ranged auto attack makes up for much more of the damage than he previously thought, and nerfing summoned arrows will be a big dps loss, almost 2.5-3% of our zone wide dps (6% reduction on 40%+ of the overall damage). I feel we pay enough already for our dps with poisons alone, I dont want to have to pay even more for "must have" arrows to try and stay competative on the parse.</P>

[Lev]

But if you do read some threads more dedicated to the actual changes, you will find that summoned arrows are not being nerfed at all. Crafted arrows are getting revamped.<div></div>

[El Dominion]

<DIV>Yeah just read that now, hadn't caught up on that thread at the time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would have edited mine, but that would make your post look odd <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Magroo wrote:<BR>As a result of Rothgar's comment on the arrow thread i.e. "Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.", I've begun to question my assumption that actually ranged AA is very important to a Ranger.<BR><BR>I've noticed that sometimes when in ranged mode, my character still seems to switch to melee animation and does some damage. I assume this is a proc or something going off. Now according to latest patch notes, I noticed they have changed bows to not proc on melee (and vice versa ??) so perhaps this won't happen any more.<BR><BR>My question is, when people have analysed their ranged AA DPS, are they 100% sure that the damage they are assigning to ranged AA is in fact from that, and not a melee proc going off ?<BR><BR>The reason I ask is that this has raised 2 interesting possibilites in my mind:<BR><BR>1. The dev responsible for ranger arrow changes and DPS calculations has no idea how rangers do their damage.<BR><BR>2. The devs are right and we've all been calculating our ranged DPS wrongly. Oh, and as an aside we might have just seen a stealth nerf here, as that melee damage in ranged mode has just been "fixed".<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I posted this early January routine Deathtoll damage breakdown earlier:</P> <P><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Balerius/DTJan5.png"><BR></P> <P>Note that:</P> <P>37% = Combined CA damage<BR>   14% = Melee CA damage<BR>   23% = Range CA damage</P> <P>10% = Poison Damage</P> <P>8% = Proc damage</P> <P>1% = slash damage</P> <P>41% = pierce autoattack damage<BR>   1% = pierce melee autoattack damage<BR>  40% = pierce ranged autoattack damage</P> <P>3% = rounding error</P> <P>Now you may ask how I differentiated between melee and ranged pierce damage.  It's a good estimate.  I use a slash weapon in my main hand.  It has a higher damage rating and slower speed than the pierce weapon in my offhand.  Consequently, since slash was only 1% of my damage, then my melee autoattack piercing damage cannot be greater than 1%.  Ergo, my ranged pierce damage must have been at least 40% of my total damage output.</P> <P>Finally, you should know that I constantly use my CAs...both melee and ranged.  I generally hang out at about 5 meters and use tham when available.  I also close and do melee autoattack.  It's all timed around my ranged autoattack timer for the haste I have.</P> <P>Lastly, that post was from a DT raid some time ago; most of my current parses show an even greater disparity between autoattack and CA damage.</P> <P>So let's recap:  it's pretty evident, at least to me, that ranger CAs do <EM><STRONG>NOT</STRONG></EM> do more damage than ranged autoattack.</P> <P> </P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bentgate wrote:<BR> I have been having PM conversations with Rothgar and they are very discouraging.<BR><BR>He thinks that we need to spam our CAs for max DPS and that auto-attack is not the majority of our DPS. He said 30%-40% of damage is not the majority. I politely pointed out that when all of our other arts account for between 5%-10% of damage then AA is the majority of our damage from one skill.<BR><BR>He also was not aware that our summon arrow skill was behind a tier. I brought it to his attention and he said level 60 arrows are good for t7. Completely missing the point that in all tiers but this one we are using arrows from one tier down. t6 we use fulginate, t5 we use feyiron, t4 carbonite. I was amazed he was not aware of this. I also pointed out in t8 we will be stuck using t7 arrows and then be forced to buy arrows from woodworkers. T8 will be were the real gouging begins.<BR><BR>If they fix the tier summoning mechanic and leave summoned as is and make player crafted a little better this change I can swallow. Without switching our summon arrows problem, only in T7 will we not have to buy arrows from woodworkers.<BR><BR>Some excerpts from our conversation: My question in italics his answer in bold.<BR><BR><I>7. At the very least make our summon arrows like summon tier approrpiate arrows. Make it a spell that does not upgrade (like cheapshot) but summons the arrows from the tier you are currently in.</I><BR><BR><B>Level 60 arrows are actually the proper tier for 60-70. </B><BR><BR><I>One final question: Have you even played the ranger class to level 70? in groups, you spam CAs so you auto-attack is low. However, once you raid you are auto-attacking most of the time.</I><BR><BR><B>I 100% completely disagree that in a raid you are auto-attacking most of the time. If you are not spamming your CA's in a raid then you are not doing your best dps.<BR><BR></B>I dont think he realizes his auto-attack hits for more than all but 3 of his CAs. But he is using the Wrymdestroyer Bow so that tells you alot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just recently got a PM from him myself. And while I wont pick on his gear. I will agree that his tactics are less then ideal. I feel thats directly related to his bow though. As most of us here know, short bows and auto attacks dont really mix. You'll end up losing more autoattacks then you would with a longbow. On top of that, shortbows, since they should hit more often, hit for much less then that of a longbow. This is where it becomes a major issue. Moreso when crits are factored into it. Anytime you have a 90+ damage rating longbow, you'll likely see most of your crits 5K or better. And what? like 2k on the average?</P> <P>Its not about spamming CAs to achieve your max DPS, its about timing your CAs so they dont interfere too much with your autoattacks.</P>

[djcinder]

<DIV> I can attest to this first hand, I used to use my Wurmdestroyer bow all the time.  I timed my CA's between the auto attacks and my DPS was @1.2-1.4k in raids.  Then I started using my Rain Caller and timed my CA's between auto attacks... my DPS shot up to 1.5-1.7k in raids... and thats using a Lengendary T6 bow with a much lower damage rating (-20) vs a Fabled T7 bow. </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV> <DIV> I dont know if it is because I was actually cancelling out 1/2 of my short bow attacks (due to haste and such speeding the refresh or whatever) but that really suprised me.  Yes, i was late to the party on using longbows.... and still haven't gotten a T8 ammo summoning bow or fabled T7 longbow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If I spam CA's then auto attack while waiting on CA's to refresh my DPS drops significantly no matter what bow I use.  Any Dev or player advising Dev's that thinks auto attack DPS isn't significant to Ranger's needs to get with some of the Rangers in this forum to learn some improved technique.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Arleonenis]

hehehe funny, dev playing ranger have no idea how to play that class... well i suppose its also true for most rangers from ebay... this dont put him in best light and best company though<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> auto attack is very important if you have longbow with max dmg of 400, but when you got bow with max dmg of 800 than auto atack is biggest part of your dmg, you than should even forget about sweet spot to not risk losing auto attack that will do more dmg on one crit than all your melee CAs combined (and do so without wasting power too), well that bow auto attack could crit for more even than any ranged CA other than sniper shot crit

[Judist]

<p>Auto-attack = extremely important...</p><p><img src="http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/b/Beatinguts/48800/jbibbattsa.jpg" border="0"></p>

[USAFJeeper]

<p>Wow, just wow.  Assuming those really are his words and that he is really usng the Wurmdestroyer instead of almost ANY long bow..  No wonder rangers never get love.  I realy find it amazing he seems to not understand class mechanics of the ranger so much.</p><p> Ah well, playing my brigand atm, since so many left the game after the big nerf stick hit, my lil 70 brigand seems to be wanted.  I just wish I could play my ranger instead, I do like him better.</p>

[pseudocide]

<cite>Badaxe Bart wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>On a partial raid of lyceum last nite (I was late logging in due to the update time) piercing did 41% of my damage.  14% came from caustic poison.  10% came from quick shot.  All the CA's fell below this, but safe to assume they will add up to the remainder, which is only 35%.  This is LESS damage than autoattack not more. FYI, I used vendor bought adamantine arrows.  I remember my first raid, and another ranger telling me, make sure you time your CA's to let your autoattack hit, it'll boost youR dps waY UP.</p> <p>How true.</p><p></blockquote> </p><p>you're welcome harry <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />PP</p>

[Wil81115]

<p>flat out Yes..</p><p> Delaying your Range auto attack can lower your dps significantly.  In approx. 60sec fights, I've seen a difference of alteast 400+ by the end of the fight on the parse.  Thats 24000+ damage that I didn't do but should have.  I'm lucky enough to have a T8 ammo summoning bow and a Sarnak.  So this makes my auto attacks even more important not to miss or delay them. </p><p>To the dev that plays with a short bow.. PM man.. we REALLY NEED TO TALK. <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[beckhamv2]

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote> <b><span style="color: #cc0000">If they fix the tier summoning mechanic and leave summoned as is and make player crafted a little better this change I can swallow. Without switching our summon arrows problem, only in T7 will we not have to buy arrows from woodworkers. </span></b> <p></blockquote></p><p>Sorry if its a bit off topic, but was wondering if my perspective on this is at all useful. Im in a high end raiding guild and do have Bazkul for my summoned ammo. I'm also a 70 woodworker. What I've heard about LU32 and the stat changes to crafted arrows has excited me about being able to provide my guild (non ranger arrow consumers) with much higher quality ammunition. </p><p> A good buddy of mine in guild (GL actually who rerolled from probably the top pally on the server to an assasin for the good of the guild) usually buys his arrows, so in my downtime I'd knock out a few stacks for him (about as much as my patience allows). He's appreciative, but burns through so many, he's still buying the majority of what he uses from the broker. I didn't know assasins go through so many, but he's online a lot more than I am ;p</p><p> The bottom line is that I didn't get into woodworking to make money because I raid when I'm online. Tradeskilling is what I do when I have three beers left and I'm just winding down. Once I hit 70 ww awhile back, and especially after picking up Bazkul, woodworking to me was worthless save for a handful of adornments and maybe throwing together a bow for a buddy's alt. My hope is that stats on Reclaimed Arrows vs raid bow summoned vs the new crafted soon to come are <b><i>very thoroughly </i></b>thought about and that the end stats for each <b><i>make sense </i></b>for what they are.</p><p>I have strong boxes of materials for arrow recipes waiting for LU32, and I don't forsee any of the arrows I make hitting the broker. </p>

[LoreLady]

Auto attack is the most important thing you could have in the game - currently my auto attack %age is at 40%.. The other ranger in my guild who has both the bazkul and warbow does 50-60% auto attack dps.. Hes a slacker though and I out dps him <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Star]

<cite>LoreLady wrote:</cite><blockquote>Auto attack is the most important thing you could have in the game - currently my auto attack %age is at 40%.. The other ranger in my guild who has both the bazkul and warbow does 50-60% auto attack dps.. Hes a slacker though and I out dps him <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </blockquote><p>Which in turn shows that he's prolly not "spamming" his CAs. I put it in quotes because while spamming your CAs with utter disregard to your auto attacks is bad for DPS, setting your CAs up so that you can spam them with minimal interuption of your auto attack is the best way to do DPS.</p><p>On an aside the comments on this thread about having to use summoned arrows that are a tier lower is only partially true. We get T3 arrows for T3. We get T4 arrows for most of T4. T5 and T6 are the losing teirs, fulginate at 48 and no T6 arrows at all. We get T7 arrows for all but 2 levels of T7 and we will have T8 arrows by the time we're level 80, though we'll have to make it through 6 levels of the teir before we get them.</p><p>And to note, yes level 60 ammo is <b>T7</b> ammo. The ammo from the DT bows is legendary <b>T8</b> ammo. Teir appropriate ammo is always usable at the bottom of the teir.</p><p>On the main topic, AA is *very* important.</p>

[Badaxe Ba]

<p>First off, your welcome Guerrilla <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Second, Last night in Lyceum again, and first time to watch how the new CA nonusage and autoattack meshed.  I'm puzzled, because it seemed whenever quick shot procced, it would turn off autoattack, ie. no arrow usage. This is definitely a change I think, because prior to LU32 I could pretty much time my CA's by watching my quiver.  If I'm mistaken and it doesn't switch autoattack off, does it reset the timer of autoattack proc?  If anyone else notices differently or can better detail what can interrupt this I'd appreciate the info, as would many others I'm sure.</p><p>And by my count I used less than 400 arrows in Lyceum last night, and tried deliberately to use more to "test" the ammo drain (46% damage from piercing!).   Thank you Sony, and my bank thanks you as well.</p>