Arrow Consumption Update

[Lev]

Cause it's generally a good idea to care about all aspects of your class, not just the ones you yourself do not have problems with due to an item that will or will not be out of date with further expansions..Anyways, to clear something up, AA is a big part of the rangers dps so thats a bit of miscalculation.. of course this depends alot on what bow you got, but it is also alot about ranger mechanics (crits, procs etc.)In any way.. with the crafted arrow changes it will most likely be worth buying arrows over semi afk summoning arrows, as the time to summon them would greatly overgo the time it would take to make the money spent on arrows. I am not saying I am overly happy, as there is still some issues around it, but this is a big improvement and I think we should all be thankful for this bone. so now, Yes you will most likely be required to buy arrows to stay on top of your game, then again this will give you an increase in dps, and it will take down cost vs time.. cause as we know time is money. Still rather unfair that we have to spend plats to do our main job, but this is a good compromise.. not only did we get what many thought of a good solution to our consumption rate (CAs not using arrows), but also did we see an increase in arrows per recipe in effect a lower arrow price. Together it snowballs to quite alot more than you think right away. Auto attack still does use about 150 arrows in 10minutes depending on weapon delay and haste, but a medium hasted ranger with a long bow thats about 4seconds and 150arrows in 10 minutes.I really think that woodworkers should get an extra bone, give them 500 arrows or 5 stacks per recipe (495), and up the fuel requirement equally.. In my opinion this would not really change your current setup .. except for the fact that it would be less time consuming to make arrows. Of course raw requirements should be upped some as well to compensate.the reason I say this is that currently no woodworker will want to make arrows because it takes too much time with too little gain. and fact is with the current changes this has not changed.. Except for the fact that arrows will be consumed slower. I merely put this up as an suggestion to give woodworkers a reason to bother to make arrows for rangers and still make money on it.Other than that I think it's great and I am really happy with the changes.<div></div>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:I really think that woodworkers should get an extra bone, give them 500 arrows or 5 stacks per recipe (495), and up the fuel requirement equally.. In my opinion this would not really change your current setup .. except for the fact that it would be less time consuming to make arrows. Of course raw requirements should be upped some as well to compensate.the reason I say this is that currently no woodworker will want to make arrows because it takes too much time with too little gain. and fact is with the current changes this has not changed.. Except for the fact that arrows will be consumed slower. I merely put this up as an suggestion to give woodworkers a reason to bother to make arrows for rangers and still make money on it.Other than that I think it's great and I am really happy with the changes.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm following this arrow info as a woodworker, not a Ranger.  And I think the changes they are going to do to arrow crafting is great.  First off, I can now actually make a profit on arrows, as they will have a measurable impact on performance.  If I can get a whole stack of arrows out per combine, I'm excited to make them.  You also have to consider that arrow consumption is going to drastically decrease, so woodworkers won't have to burn out 4000 arrows a day to keep up with demand.</div>

[Reilena]

<DIV>I am pretty excited about this.. a little bummed that the summoned arrows will be less.. but.. i dont leave much down time for autoattack durring raid fights anyways. This is going to lower my costs by probably 5-6 plat a week... I've been spending about 1.5 plat a raid on arrows.<BR><BR><BR>*hugs SOE*</DIV>

[Zendi_Perma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.<BR><BR> The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.<BR><BR>The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hey Rothgar, you might want to double-check that.     My autoattack ranges from 40 up to 50% of my zonewide raid parse.    It was lower with legendary bow, but I don't think I ever saw it below 30+%.<BR>

[Anaun]

<P align=left>First, let me state how much I appreciate that this is finally being addressed. Clearly, you have listened to your customers, and are putting a lot of effort into making the situation better. Thank you.</P> <P align=left>However, I find that "pierce" is usually 30-40% of my damage on parses, even if I spam CA's and carefully time my damage buffs prior to quicker CA's. Unless "pierce" also includes CA damage (and I doubt it does based on the way ACT breaks out individual CA damage,) I would consider that to be a rather large part of my dps. Maybe I am doing something wrong... care to show a few of those parses for comparison? :smileyhappy:</P> <P align=left>Despite removing arrow consumption from CA's, I will have to pay for better arrows to maintain the exact DPS I am delivering today. (Using stockpiled reclaimed arrows will provide lower DPS for auto-attack, and therefore a lower overall sum for DPS.) That is an INCREASE, not a DECREASE, in actual cost to maintain the current status quo for ranged dps. </P> <P align=left>Removing arrow consumption from CA's is awesome. It is a huge improvement. But, please leave current arrows as they are, and put the new (and hopefully abundant) crafted arrows somewhere between vendor/reclaimed arrows and T8 summoned/blessed/dropped arrows.</P> <P align=left>Edit: While you're making fixes, can you please have <STRIKE>Point Blank Shot</STRIKE> Arrow Rip recover arrows at the same tier as reclaimed? I am really starting to hate those [see, I can control my language] Indium arrows. :smileytongue:</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by jb11740 on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:22 AM</span>

[Veyor]

<P> Thanks for the update, it sounds like a great idea! Will the prices for arrows on vendors be reduced or are they going to stay the same?</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Veyor on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:06 PM</span>

[Microbolt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>This has been a hot topic for awhile and I'm pleased to say that GU32 will bring some nice changes.  Combat arts will no longer consume ammo with the next live update.  Only your auto-attack will use arrows.<BR><BR>Arrow damage is also being looked at and balanced so there will be a benefit to using better arrows.  Summoned arrows will provide the lowest damage, with vendor bought arrows being slightly better.  Crafted arrows will give the best dps, and among the three types of crafted arrows, each one will enhance either range, accuracy or damage.   Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down.  This in combination with them only being used for auto-attack should make it very feasible to use crafted arrows if you want to maximize your dps.  Keep in mind this will only affect the damage amounts on auto-attacks and not on combat arts. CA damage will still be affected by your stats and the tier of your bow.<BR><BR>If you have any questions or concerns about this change, I'll try to help.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nice!!!  I'm really looking foward to this change.  Thanks for tipping us off on this future update <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Kitsune286]

Does this mean that our ranged attacks will now be set in the damage they do? Right now, if I use rounded tip arrows, Triple Volley will deal crushing damage. If they are no longer using munitions, will they be set to a default damage type of peircing, or will they still look at whats in the ammo slot to see what type of damage to deal out?<div></div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xney wrote:<BR> <P>Errr... pretty sure a raiding ranger with a proper bow, lvl 70 legendary ammo, and buffs does at least 40% of their dps from auto-attack. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>So if you have lvl 70 legendary ammo why do you care about the dps decrease of Makeshift Adamantine?<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because when you wrote about "summoned arrows" it left things a bit uncertain, since Bazkul and Ichorstrand also "summon" arrows.</P> <P>But from your response, it appears that your order of arrow effectiveness is only referring to arrows "summoned" from our reclaimed arrow CA and that T7 legendary ammo from Bazkul and Ichorstrand will remain at the top of the damage order after the GU 32 changes.  Which is how it should be.</P>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xney wrote:<BR> <P>Errr... pretty sure a raiding ranger with a proper bow, lvl 70 legendary ammo, and buffs does at least 40% of their dps from auto-attack. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>So if you have lvl 70 legendary ammo why do you care about the dps decrease of Makeshift Adamantine?<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Rothgar, thanks for the update.  This all looks pretty good on the surface, I sure hope it works out as planned.   I'm still using my Grizz and my parses show my autoattack damage at around 30-36% of my total DPS.  With a 6% decrease in auto attack using summon, if my math is correct, that'll be a bout a 2% decrease in total DPS with my current set up.  Obviously those with higher DR bows will see a greater decrease.  Is this in the ball park of how you envision the change?  If so, I can live with this.  We can use our summoned arrows for grouping and such and buy the crafted arrows for raiding.</P> <P>Which brings me to this...  Buying crafted arrows seems like it'll be a must for the raiders who don't have the bows that summon the T8 ammo.  This is good news, unless the cost is prohibitive.  Do you think your new crafting ratios are going to help lower the market prices, or do you think we'll still be paying 6-7 gold per stack?  I'm only asking because if the arrows are still going to cost us as much as they do now, or more, we are going to still be in the same boat.  Well, only those of us who don't have the time to level up a T7 woodworker.</P> <P>Edit:  I mis-spoke.  We won't be in the same boat exactly since the CAs won't burn ammo.  But I hope catch my drift.</P><p>Message Edited by Gareorn on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:38 PM</span>

[Lev]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>jb11740 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p align="left">First, let me state how much I appreciate that this is finally being addressed. Clearly, you have listened to your customers, and are putting a lot of effort into making the situation better. Thank you.</p> <p align="left">However, I find that "pierce" is usually 30-40% of my damage on parses, even if I spam CA's and carefully time my damage buffs prior to quicker CA's. Unless "pierce" also includes CA damage (and I doubt it does based on the way ACT breaks out individual CA damage,) I would consider that to be a rather large part of my dps. Maybe I am doing something wrong... care to show a few of those parses for comparison? :smileyhappy:</p> <p align="left">Despite removing arrow consumption from CA's, I will have to pay for better arrows to maintain the exact DPS I am delivering today. (Using stockpiled reclaimed arrows will provide lower DPS for auto-attack, and therefore a lower overall sum for DPS.) That is an INCREASE, not a DECREASE, in actual cost to maintain the current status quo for ranged dps. </p> <p align="left">Removing arrow consumption from CA's is awesome. It is a huge improvement. But, please leave current arrows as they are, and put the new (and hopefully abundant) crafted arrows somewhere between vendor/reclaimed arrows and T8 summoned/blessed/dropped arrows.</p> <p align="left">Edit: While you're making fixes, can you please have Point Blank Shot recover arrows at the same tier as reclaimed? I am really starting to hate those [see, I can control my language] Indium arrows. :smileytongue:</p> <p>Message Edited by jb11740 on <span class="date_text">01-31-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:13 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by jb11740 on <span class="date_text">01-31-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>What you fail to understand is standing around summoning arrows = spending time you could have spent making cash, so with the reduction in consumption and the lowering of price it will all in all be more proficient to buy crafted arrows than to stand there and summon, even if you do not consider dmg.Also, Sparql, that is great and I hope every woodworker feel that way, I was just considering the time vs gain. Seeing as this has not changed.<div></div><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[dubbs]

<DIV>You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.</DIV><p>Message Edited by dubbs on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[Kylinth]

With these new changes to arrow damage, are there plans to add the damage to the inspect window of ammo?<div></div>

[Microbolt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <DIV>You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by dubbs on <SPAN class=date_text>01-31-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:45 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Prices of arrows should also go down.  In OP dev said "Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down."  Until the changes are officially announced yeild/dmg changes are finalized shouldn't be pesimistic about it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Personally, I'm very excited that any changes about ammo consumption are being looked at <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Boramyr]

<DIV>I really don't get this you offer a fix, but its kinda backhanded.  We are going to lower your arrow consumption because we admit its too costly but at the same time we are going to nerf your free arrows so that you have to buy arrows from these other guys that way our fix works on two classes.  I'm not one to gripe about stuff and I myself have Bazkul so this won't impact me, but on a whole I find this change Dirty Pool and would much rather see it stay the way it is rather than have our intelligence insulted and our free autoattack damage nerfed by 6%.  I've said it in another post and I'll  say it again.   The order should be Storebought < Ranger Summoned/Normal Crafted  < Specialty Crafted < T8 Legendary (by a fair margin)   My logic in the T8 Legendary is this 1.  Its T8 not T7 so it should do more damage than anything T7 also Legendary should do more damage than Handcrafted.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, nobody has still commented on weither us not using arrows for our CA's will still let us change the damage type by putting crushing or slashing arrows into the primary slot of the quiver. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Boramyr on <span class=date_text>01-31-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:04 PM</span>

[Nulad]

All is fair in love and war unless you're a ranger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We'll see how it pans out in a month or so...Arrow costs and consumption being reduced can only be a good thing in my opinion, and my oft lamented choice of becoming a woodworker will be rejoiced instead I think, that however requires a lot of leveling before it's usefull to myself, still at least it should be worth my effort and have something sellable at the end of a session <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Terrak]

Hey Roth, any chance of reintroducing the mastercrafted ammo of old?<div></div>

[Stormcrest]

<div><blockquote><hr>dubbs wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. </div> <div> </div> <div>No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.</div><p>Message Edited by dubbs on <span class="date_text">01-31-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Could not have said it better myself. To recap:<ul><li>We still have to pay more than any other class for our DPS... my auto-attack on my Ranger ran anywhere from 30-45% of his total DPS per ACT (Pierce damage)</li><li>Our summoned arrows simply become a wasted skill unless we want to drop our DPS from what it currently is on live (for those of us that don't have T8 ammo)</li><li>The arrows per crafting combine for a Woodworker are getting increased. We are still at the whim of anothers players price for our DPS. Yes, we don't have to buy them if they are too high, but what happens when a greedy Woodworker buys all the arrows at a lower price and adds them to his own? Yes, some people will still probably buy them for raids so they will sell, but still... we have to pay for our DPS. </li></ul>I don't mind buying poisons, but arrows and poisons are too much. I'll support this change when Swashbucklers have to use a whetstone for their DPS that are purchased from a Weaponsmith. Also, Wizards need an ice stone for Ice Nova (hey they don't have to worry about any auto-attack so they need them for their spells) and a fire stone for the flame spells that are purchased from a Sage. You can make all of those look nice by adding in effects like more damage for one type of stone with a greater chance of resist, or less damage with little chance for a resist. So they can get a little DPS without buying these consumable items, let them have makeshift stones.No, I would not wish that on the example classes I used above and think it simply stupid. However, this is the same thing that Rangers will be seeing. Casual rangers won't feel it as much since they won't have the longer play sessions. Many solo Rangers won't feel it that don't fight high end heroic mobs or names daily since they burn down the mobs faster than even having their auto attack go off but a couple of times. Those of us that do the harder instances and raid will feel it the most that do not have T8 ammo... how many of us are there without that ammo dispenser?Just do an Endless Quiver that you have to have filled with a single arrow. Each tier you have to upgrade the arrow in the quiver. Make it to where there are several arrow types per tier with different effects so that there is reason to buy multiple versions at each tier. After that, make them a little expensive to craft so that it is a one time rare purchase or common purchase like any other class in the game has to buy at each tier. Ranger drops 1pp (rare crafted example) per arrow type with 5 types (example only) of arrows per tier that wants every type. That nets 5pp per tier for a Woodworker to gain off a Ranger. If a Woodworker stays with the Ranger as a customer for 7 tiers and he buys all 5 types (example number again)... that is 35pp lifetime off one player. Sound like a lot? Maybe, but it still would be many times cheaper than what has been proposed over the course of a couple months of play time.</div>

[Stormcrest]

<div><blockquote><hr>Microbolt wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> dubbs wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div>You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. </div> <div> </div> <div>No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.</div> <p>Message Edited by dubbs on <span class="date_text">01-31-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:45 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Prices of arrows should also go down.  In OP dev said "Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down."  Until the changes are officially announced yeild/dmg changes are finalized shouldn't be pesimistic about it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Personally, I'm very excited that any changes about ammo consumption are being looked at <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>You mean not be pesimistic about being at a player run economies whim? C'mon now you know human nature <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Prices will probably start off a little high. Think about when cloaks first came out...T3 cloaks for 50g+? and they sold because the rich didn't care. Yeah, they slowly came down but it was a few weeks. Now, we will have to take a DPS cut while the prices normalize while the game goes on using makeshift arrows/reclaimed arrows etc or pay exorbant prices that will fluctuate.Soon there after, a smart/greedy Woodworker will realize his time is money and he can't keep up with the demand by selling them cheap. So he will raise his prices and notice that his stop selling. Well, heck... why not corner the market? Buy the cheaper guys'/gals' arrows and add them to my own sales merchandise since they were selling a low profit. His will still sell, albeit a little slower but for more profit and less work. The cheaper guys are still making some profit, but he is banking off of their work and his in a combined monoply. It happens with transmuting powders now, and with rares, and many other items. An arrow is more valuable than someone is willing to pay for it and more valuable to some people more than others. It doesn't change the fact that we are throwing coin at the mob for ammunition that we DEPEND on that no other class has to... well, to the same extreme.Not that I don't hope your right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I just don't see it happening... greed will prevail if we are forced to use another players recurring work for our playstyle.</div>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Knightcrest wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>dubbs wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. </div> <div> </div> <div>No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.</div><p>Message Edited by dubbs on <span class="date_text">01-31-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Could not have said it better myself. To recap:<ul><li>We still have to pay more than any other class for our DPS... my auto-attack on my Ranger ran anywhere from 30-45% of his total DPS per ACT (Pierce damage)</li><li>Our summoned arrows simply become a wasted skill unless we want to drop our DPS from what it currently is on live (for those of us that don't have T8 ammo)</li><li>The arrows per crafting combine for a Woodworker are getting increased. We are still at the whim of anothers players price for our DPS. Yes, we don't have to buy them if they are too high, but what happens when a greedy Woodworker buys all the arrows at a lower price and adds them to his own? Yes, some people will still probably buy them for raids so they will sell, but still... we have to pay for our DPS. </li></ul>I don't mind buying poisons, but arrows and poisons are too much. <b>I'll support this change when Swashbucklers have to use a whetstone for their DPS that are purchased from a Weaponsmith. Also, Wizards need an ice stone for Ice Nova (hey they don't have to worry about any auto-attack so they need them for their spells) and a fire stone for the flame spells that are purchased from a Sage. </b>You can make all of those look nice by adding in effects like more damage for one type of stone with a greater chance of resist, or less damage with little chance for a resist. So they can get a little DPS without buying these consumable items, let them have makeshift stones.No, I would not wish that on the example classes I used above and think it simply stupid. However, this is the same thing that Rangers will be seeing. Casual rangers won't feel it as much since they won't have the longer play sessions. Many solo Rangers won't feel it that don't fight high end heroic mobs or names daily since they burn down the mobs faster than even having their auto attack go off but a couple of times. Those of us that do the harder instances and raid will feel it the most that do not have T8 ammo... how many of us are there without that ammo dispenser?Just do an Endless Quiver that you have to have filled with a single arrow. Each tier you have to upgrade the arrow in the quiver. Make it to where there are several arrow types per tier with different effects so that there is reason to buy multiple versions at each tier. After that, make them a little expensive to craft so that it is a one time rare purchase or common purchase like any other class in the game has to buy at each tier. Ranger drops 1pp (rare crafted example) per arrow type with 5 types (example only) of arrows per tier that wants every type. That nets 5pp per tier for a Woodworker to gain off a Ranger. If a Woodworker stays with the Ranger as a customer for 7 tiers and he buys all 5 types (example number again)... that is 35pp lifetime off one player. Sound like a lot? Maybe, but it still would be many times cheaper than what has been proposed over the course of a couple months of play time.</div><hr></blockquote>I've said this all over the place, and many other wizards agree with me.  If you give us an auto attack that does the same (hell, half as much) DPS as yours, and I'll gladly pay for the consumables.</div>

[Stormcrest]

Those first two replies may seem like I don't like the idea, but it isn't completely true.It looks great on paper but it will remain to be seen when players get to control the prices and the supply. I don't like the fact that I take a DPS cut if I use my toon as is though. I can't really as I have shelved him basically since he was mid-T6 and already leveled a 70 Warden and a 53 Guard in the mean time... I like the Ranger better, but they basically free to play after I get their gear. I don't have to pay bills in a game to make them effective. Paying for my skill set daily just isn't fun.I'll sit neutral with him on the shelf and see how this pans out and hope for the best for everyone.<div></div>

[Microbolt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knightcrest wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Microbolt wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <DIV>You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by dubbs on <SPAN class=date_text>01-31-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:45 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Prices of arrows should also go down.  In OP dev said "Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down."  Until the changes are officially announced yeild/dmg changes are finalized shouldn't be pesimistic about it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Personally, I'm very excited that any changes about ammo consumption are being looked at <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You mean not be pesimistic about being at a player run economies whim? C'mon now you know human nature <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Prices will probably start off a little high. Think about when cloaks first came out...T3 cloaks for 50g+? and they sold because the rich didn't care. Yeah, they slowly came down but it was a few weeks. Now, we will have to take a DPS cut while the prices normalize while the game goes on using makeshift arrows/reclaimed arrows etc or pay exorbant prices that will fluctuate.<BR><BR>Soon there after, a smart/greedy Woodworker will realize his time is money and he can't keep up with the demand by selling them cheap. So he will raise his prices and notice that his stop selling. Well, heck... why not corner the market? Buy the cheaper guys'/gals' arrows and add them to my own sales merchandise since they were selling a low profit. His will still sell, albeit a little slower but for more profit and less work. The cheaper guys are still making some profit, but he is banking off of their work and his in a combined monoply. It happens with transmuting powders now, and with rares, and many other items. An arrow is more valuable than someone is willing to pay for it and more valuable to some people more than others. It doesn't change the fact that we are throwing coin at the mob for ammunition that we DEPEND on that no other class has to... well, to the same extreme.<BR><BR>Not that I don't hope your right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I just don't see it happening... greed will prevail if we are forced to use another players recurring work for our playstyle.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I guess the point i was trying to make, is even if this fix is not perfect <EM>any</EM> help is better than getting no attention at all on the subject <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR>

[Stormcrest]

<div><blockquote><hr>sparql wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Knightcrest wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>dubbs wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>You guys are hilarious.  You get so giddy that a Dev actually posted in our forums you jump all over yourselves to say what "great news" this is.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm sorry but overall this news is terribile.  Arrow consumption may be going down, but the amount of arrows i now have to BUY has gone up tremendously.  Now in order to achieve my full potential i have to go out and purchase items from other players. </div> <div> </div> <div>No other class is subject to the whims of tradeskillers like we are.  It doesn't matter that the per-combine arrows is going up,  I guarantee that unless we are paying an arm and a leg, woodworkers are not going to provide the market with enough arrows meet to demand.</div><p>Message Edited by dubbs on <span class="date_text">01-31-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Could not have said it better myself. To recap:<ul><li>We still have to pay more than any other class for our DPS... my auto-attack on my Ranger ran anywhere from 30-45% of his total DPS per ACT (Pierce damage)</li><li>Our summoned arrows simply become a wasted skill unless we want to drop our DPS from what it currently is on live (for those of us that don't have T8 ammo)</li><li>The arrows per crafting combine for a Woodworker are getting increased. We are still at the whim of anothers players price for our DPS. Yes, we don't have to buy them if they are too high, but what happens when a greedy Woodworker buys all the arrows at a lower price and adds them to his own? Yes, some people will still probably buy them for raids so they will sell, but still... we have to pay for our DPS. </li></ul>I don't mind buying poisons, but arrows and poisons are too much. <b>I'll support this change when Swashbucklers have to use a whetstone for their DPS that are purchased from a Weaponsmith. Also, Wizards need an ice stone for Ice Nova (hey they don't have to worry about any auto-attack so they need them for their spells) and a fire stone for the flame spells that are purchased from a Sage. </b>You can make all of those look nice by adding in effects like more damage for one type of stone with a greater chance of resist, or less damage with little chance for a resist. So they can get a little DPS without buying these consumable items, let them have makeshift stones.No, I would not wish that on the example classes I used above and think it simply stupid. However, this is the same thing that Rangers will be seeing. Casual rangers won't feel it as much since they won't have the longer play sessions. Many solo Rangers won't feel it that don't fight high end heroic mobs or names daily since they burn down the mobs faster than even having their auto attack go off but a couple of times. Those of us that do the harder instances and raid will feel it the most that do not have T8 ammo... how many of us are there without that ammo dispenser?Just do an Endless Quiver that you have to have filled with a single arrow. Each tier you have to upgrade the arrow in the quiver. Make it to where there are several arrow types per tier with different effects so that there is reason to buy multiple versions at each tier. After that, make them a little expensive to craft so that it is a one time rare purchase or common purchase like any other class in the game has to buy at each tier. Ranger drops 1pp (rare crafted example) per arrow type with 5 types (example only) of arrows per tier that wants every type. That nets 5pp per tier for a Woodworker to gain off a Ranger. If a Woodworker stays with the Ranger as a customer for 7 tiers and he buys all 5 types (example number again)... that is 35pp lifetime off one player. Sound like a lot? Maybe, but it still would be many times cheaper than what has been proposed over the course of a couple months of play time.</div><hr></blockquote>I've said this all over the place, and many other wizards agree with me.  If you give us an auto attack that does the same (hell, half as much) DPS as yours, and I'll gladly pay for the consumables.</div><hr></blockquote>Sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  just as soon as we have Sniper's Shot on the same timer as Ice Nova <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> or faster recast times on some of our other CA's to match a Wizard's.</div>

[Microbolt]

<DIV>Also for the rangers that cant afford the more expensive arrows -6% on autoattack isn't going to make much difference in the overall picture.</DIV>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Microbolt wrote:<div>Also for the rangers that cant afford the more expensive arrows -6% on autoattack isn't going to make much difference in the overall picture.</div><hr></blockquote>Yup, if you were making a full 50% of your DPS from AA that makes it 3% which equates to 30 in the 1000.</div>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Knightcrest wrote:<div>.Sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  just as soon as we have Sniper's Shot on the same timer as Ice Nova <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> or faster recast times on some of our other CA's to match a Wizard's.</div><hr></blockquote>I understand you say this in jest, but as a wizard I hate it when I hear things about our spells being "free"The fact is, we use an obscene amount of power, once that power is gone, our DPS is effectivly 0.  Melee classes rarely consider that, because its an issue they don't have to worry too much about (yes I am aware melee do go OOP too).   All they see is that one big number from our hits.  A good wizard, especially those who raid, pay for power potions and totems to keep power up as much as possible.  Granted, I don't spend as much on potions as you do on arrows.  When we are getting low on power, we can use potions, clickies or power heals.  All of which cost us DPS.  As a woodworker, I intend to make plenty of arrows under the new system, as there is actually an incentive for me to do so.  With the old system I only made arrows to level up and had to sell them at cost to compete with vendor arrows.  Not to mention I had to do 4 combines per stack, it took forever.  With the new system, I figure a ranger will use what, 1000 arrows on the average raid?  Maybe less?  At that rate I can quickly and easily make 10 stacks and toss them off to you guys at an affordable rate.  If you're on permafrost, look me up.</div>

[Stormcrest]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nuladen wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Microbolt wrote:<div>Also for the rangers that cant afford the more expensive arrows -6% on autoattack isn't going to make much difference in the overall picture.</div><hr></blockquote>Yup, if you were making a full 50% of your DPS from AA that makes it 3% which equates to 30 in the 1000.</div><hr></blockquote>Aye, doesn't seem like much in the scheme of things... think it is more principle for me that those that don't buy arrows now get any sort of reduction at all for the change. Tood bad we can't respec tradeskill classes... wishing I had gone Woodworker now instead of Carpenter on my Ranger. </div>

[Anaun]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RabbitFly wrote:<BR> <BR>What you fail to understand is standing around summoning arrows = spending time you could have spent making cash, so with the reduction in consumption and the lowering of price it will all in all be more proficient to buy crafted arrows than to stand there and summon, even if you do not consider dmg.<BR><BR><BR>Also, Sparql, that is great and I hope every woodworker feel that way, I was just considering the time vs gain. Seeing as this has not changed.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <SPAN class=date_text>01-31-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:36 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, I understand perfectly.</P> <P>I think what you fail to understand is that we will still be paying to use our primary auto-attack, and perhaps more than before, to maintain previous damage levels. No other class in the game has to do that, or ever has. </P> <P>You're assuming the price will be lower than vendor arrows. I hope it is, but until the recipe is updated, until woodworkers are in full swing, and until the market stabilizes, we won't know that.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong. I already stated that the change to arrow consumption for CA's is wonderful, and I will be grateful when it goes live.  But reducing the effectiveness of the free arrows for the only class that requires them for primary auto-attack, with an option to pay to keep that effectiveness, is adding a cost component that did not exist previously.</P> <P>That's the only conclusion possible, if you look at it honestly. Sorry.</P> <P>So it's pretty simple. Make this a win for everyone involved, by keeping the cost and effectiveness of existing arrows the same, and making player crafted arrows substantially better than free or vendor arrows, but not nearly as good as legendary or fabled arrows. Give woodworkers quadruple yields on pristine, just like other crafted consumables, to make it worth their time and effort, and to make it economically feasible to improve your DPS if you chose to purchase the arrows to do so.</P> <P>What I am asking for is a very minor tweak on what is already on the table.</P> <P>And thanks again to the devs for working to fix this. I know it must be difficult to balance all of the factors involved, without breaking some other aspect of gameplay, or unfairly penalizing some other class.</P> <P> </P>

[Sebastien]

<DIV>I'm not yet playing a ranger, but on the surface this sounds like a great change, both for them and for woodworkers.</DIV>

[BSbon]

<P>this change now makes the 14 plat master spell i got nearly useless. why not just take away the summon line and give us something else? looks like we're still reliant on crafters and buying dps to me. </P> <P>summoned < vendor bought < crafter made    is just like</P> <P>the vendor trash armor with all resists on it < cheap common crafted armor < rare imbued armor</P> <P>no one uses the first 2 kinds</P> <P>necro FTW</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  <FONT color=#ff0000>But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done</FONT>, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.<BR><BR> The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.<BR><BR>The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Rothgar, While I like the idea that our CAs will no longer use a consumable, I am going to have to call you out on your lack of knowledge of the ranger class. A 6% decrease to summoned arrows, no matter how you slice it, is a nerf. Most rangers use store bought ammo to suppliment their arrow usage when the summoning lines dont cut it anymore. And thats still a large out of pocket expense. Now, to say that if we want to maintain, or perhaps slightly improve our DPS we will have to buy player crafted arrows? Im sorry, but thats completely out of wack.</P> <P>The second sentance says is all. Autoattack makes up for 30-40% of ranger DPS. Still think thats not a large part of Ranger DPS? At least 1/3 of our damage will be cut down 6%. I would seriously reconsider the tiering of the arrows. Because right now, you are basicly forcing us to spend money... IE line a woodworkers pockets. And while you might believe this is a solid working fix for the complaints of WWs and Rangers everywhere. It isnt. Forcing 1 class to buy any type of consumable from 1 crafting class is not the right answer for this. At this point, its not real clear if the costs will be higher for rangers, or lower. I will bet theres a fairly good chance that its going to remain the same. If for no other reason, you've just made our summoned arrows into junk, and essentually waste a spot that would otherwise might be a usefull CA, Buff/Debuff.</P> <P>When you can name 1 other class that has to rely on player crafted items for thier 1/3 of thier DPS, then, and only then, will you be able to sell this idea to rangers.<BR></P>

[AziBam]

I just can't see any conversation about fixing arrows for rangers that also involves woodworkers.  Sorry, those should be two totally and completely different topics.  Rangers shouldn't have to pay for a consumable item on their primary form of damage.  They also shouldn't have to feel it's OK to have sub-par free summoned ammo.  If you want to have woodworkers make a new totem (or any other item) that adds to the core damage of ranged attack such as a proc damage type then have at it.  But, it shouldn't be needed as a basic component.     <div></div>

[jjlo69]

<DIV>great reading this mean the raiders that worked our asres off for the best gear to include t8 ammo just to get it nerfed.. i know even though the dev said it should be better the the crafted that part about not much better then a certin crafted type rounded worries me alot. I mean even though i know my class in side and out dont go messing with hard earned item due to the fact ppl are whinning about having to actually farm or spend some of there plat for arrows.</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.<div></div>The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.<hr></blockquote>Would there be the possibility to let us treat quivers like bags and equip them in a bag slot.. so for example I could swap out ammo types with a simple swap of the quiver instead of moving multiple stacks?</div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jjlo69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>great reading this mean the raiders that worked our asres off for the best gear to include t8 ammo just to get it nerfed.. i know even though the dev said it should be better the the crafted that part about not much better then a certin crafted type rounded worries me alot. I mean even though i know my class in side and out dont go messing with hard earned item due to the fact ppl are whinning about having to actually farm or spend some of there plat for arrows.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That just furthers the agruement of "they dont know what they are doing". You cant tell me that T8 legendary ammo and player crafted Rounded arrows might be on par with one another. Its 2 different tiers of arrow AND two different quality types of Arrows. The difference should be noticable and in favor of the higher quality, higher tiered legendary summoned. Last time I checked. T7 gear was better then T6 gear... Last time I checked, handcrafted gear was no where near on par with Legendary gear. So... to recap</P> <P>T8 Legendary Ammo should be better then any T7 handcrafted. </P> <P>Theres really nothing more that needs to be said.</P>

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.<BR><BR> The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.<BR><BR>The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Would there be the possibility to let us treat quivers like bags and equip them in a bag slot.. so for example I could swap out ammo types with a simple swap of the quiver instead of moving multiple stacks?<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you can. bongo has 2 quivers just to hold enough arrows.

[Mirdo]

<P>I know that one of the Dev's raids with a Ranger. How can they not know that well geared and buffed raid rangers garner 40% upwards of their DPS from autoattack?</P> <P>I am lucky enough to have a summoning bow, but if I didn't, this change would scare the pants off me and have me looking to my finances.</P> <P>It's been said before: </P> <P>Why should Rangers have to buy DPS from other players that have no cap on how much they can charge for our consumables?</P> <P>Why do we remain one of the few classes in the game that pay for every single autoattack we make ? EVERY SINGLE ONE. </P> <P>I thought the recent drive in this game was towards fun and removing 'bad' mechanics'. As far as many Rangers are concerned, spending time summoning arrows or farming to pay for them is not fun. Let me reiterate;</P> <P>) Knowing that every autoattack you make makes someone else richer and you poorer when your groupmates/guildmates are swinging/casting for free is frustrating and annoying.</P> <P>) Having to make arrangements with and being reliant on the timetables of tradeskillers is not fun. </P> <P>) Some players can burn 4k+ arrows PER SESSION. This will obviously drop with the changes but will still be in the thousands with commensureate costs.</P> <P>) People that can't afford whatever woodworkers want to charge will face a DPS cut. How is that fun or fair?</P> <P>When/if the next level raise comes, I'll be off to another class I think. I can't remember off the top of my head but wouldn't a level cap put our harvested arrows a tier behind? That will leave us completely at the mercy of tradeskillers if we want to compete with the other DPS classes.</P> <P>Awful change that favours a tradeskill class over an adventuring class. Yes we know you don't know what to do with woodworkers. Forcing many Rangers to become their customers and pay for evey bow shot we make is a very poor solution to that problem. We have players economies wheer low level adepts can bring 10's of gold. This scares me.</P> <P> The only good news is that finally, after 2 years, our CA's don't consume arrows.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR> <P>When/if the next level raise comes, I'll be off to another class I think. I can't remember off the top of my head but wouldn't a level cap put our harvested arrows a tier behind? That will leave us completely at the mercy of tradeskillers if we want to compete with the other DPS classes.</P> <P>Awful change that favours a tradeskill class over an adventuring class. Yes we know you don't know what to do with woodworkers. Forcing many Rangers to become their customers and pay for evey bow shot we make is a very poor solution to that problem. We have players economies wheer low level adepts can bring 10's of gold. This scares me.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I completely agree with everything you said. And for the record, Yes, our summoned arrows will be 1 teir behind if/when they raise the level cap. Anyone with a T8 summoning bow could easily find their legendary ammo (which for the record, should still put out more damage) possibly falling behind handcrafted player made arrows. So come next level increase, rangers that wish to maximize their damage will all be at the hands of crafters.</P> <P>Its a good change, if your a woodworker... Its even a good change for a ranger thats a woodworker... but if you happen to have picked another TS, its going to be very very expensive once they find out we "NEED" those arrows.<BR></P>

[Nulad]

Hmmmm...You guys are totaly right on the principle here and I've been a little guilty of looking at this from a woodworkers point of view, but lets get some stuff straight here, it's not making us reliant on tradeskills for 1/3 of our DPS, it's 6% of a third which is a far smaller number, 2% in fact. Now I'm not going to argue the point as I do very much agree that summoned arrows should not be seeing this reduction, it's wrong, period. A 2% increase that you can pay for would be a far better end.As I see it the only way of ever balancing the mechanic of arrows from the Ranger point of view is to remove the cost factor totally.<div></div>

[Memran]

Lets be honest here, a 6% nerf to free autoattack is not a great deal. Like someone said above, if you're doing a full 50% autoattack damage, then its a 3% nerf. If you're doing closer to 33% autoattack, then its a 2% nerf... Not too bad in my opinion, in fact I doubt you would even notice it on a zone-wide.Now the thing that I see with this is that whatever they do to our free arrows is largely irrelevant anyway! Even if our free arrows were increased by 10%, the very fact that player crafted arrows are better than summoned is forcing the raiders to pay for them. DPS is everything to a raiding ranger remember.I do like that our CAs won't consume arrows though, and we should easily be able to have a surplus of arrows if we continue to use sommoned.<div></div>

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Memran wrote:<BR>Lets be honest here, a 6% nerf to free autoattack is not a great deal. Like someone said above, if you're doing a full 50% autoattack damage, then its a 3% nerf. If you're doing closer to 33% autoattack, then its a 2% nerf... Not too bad in my opinion, in fact I doubt you would even notice it on a zone-wide.<BR><BR>Now the thing that I see with this is that whatever they do to our free arrows is largely irrelevant anyway! Even if our free arrows were increased by 10%, the very fact that player crafted arrows are better than summoned is forcing the raiders to pay for them. DPS is everything to a raiding ranger remember.<BR><BR>I do like that our CAs won't consume arrows though, and we should easily be able to have a surplus of arrows if we continue to use sommoned.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why do we have to put up with a DPS nerf to correct the inability of the DEV's to get tradeskilling right? </P> <P>You are saying that a nerf to damage is actually reasonable? Based on what?</P> <P>Rangers that don't have summoning bows are certainly not over the top in DPS compared to other classes. Even those with summoned ammo won't be topping every parse.</P> <P>Why accept a nerf, or pay more to keep our DPS where it is?</P> <P>Come the next cap increase, I would have to place orders for tens of thousands of arrows (5 nights raiding per week plus instances and questing) just to maintain the DPS status Quo. That will not be happening. It's a chore, it requires me to farm even more to raise the cash for whatever bloodsucking woodworker I'l be beholden to and it's NOT FUN. This is a game, not an archery / feudal system simulation.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div>In general this is good news, but I have mixed feelings on the details of this:1. Summoned arrows being the worst ? I can sort of see this from a RP point of view, but this pretty much makes gathered arrows pointless.  Those people who spent large amount of plat on the Master spell are going to be a bit annoyed I guess. Prepare for some genuine complaints/whining (delete as appropriate). 2. Any Ranger worth his salt is now going to be forced to use vendor or player made arrows rather than summoned. How will this save us money ? 3. I think a much better idea would be to make the quality go: vendor < summoned < player made. This would stop Rangers being too annoyed, they wouldn't find their gather spells totally useless now, and Woodworkers would still be happy. This would also allow the difference between vendor and player made to be bigger, which would hopefully increase demand for player made arrows from non-Ranger classes, which in turn should reduce prices all round.4. T8 summoned ammo being better than T7 ammo makes sense to me. It would be nice though if the very best player made T7 ammo did the same damage as the summoned T8, so those Rangers who didn't have the bow but still wanted to try to keep up with the DPS can spend money to do so. As their bow isn't as good they are always going to lag behind, so the T8 guys will still parse above them (unless they are slacking !!!) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />5. When level cap is increased to 80 (??), that T8 summoned ammo is not going to be the one to use, so this should make things interesting for those bow users...6. How do we pick different damage types with our ranged attacks now ? Is the concept of slashing/crushing ranged attacks going away ? How does this affect mobs that are immune or have high resists to a damage type ?<div></div>7. As a Woodworker I welcome the changes to the stack sizes. Making 100 arrows per pristine combine might just be enough to take away the pain of crafting them.8. Reducing fuel costs would be a good idea, or at least making it so that my costs to make are a lot less than what vendor made arrows sell for. Otherwise everyone will just buy vendor made arrows. I'm not spending 2 hours crafting arrows, just to find I can make 20gp profit on them. If there is no profit, then there will be no supply and Rangers will be forced to use summoned/vendor and then you'll be seeing "you've nerfed our DPS" complaints.9. Please try to find some way of making it obvious that certain arrows are "better" in their description. I can see Woodworkers spending hours responding to tells about "which is better" etc. Something clear like Damage Rating and/or Accuracy Rating that even a mage could understand.10. How does the "range" bonus on arrows work ? If my bow has a range of 35 meters, if I have these arrows in my quiver do I get a bonus to increase it by % ? What happens if I have a mixed quiver of arrows ? What happens if I'm using them and run out and switch to my accuracy arrows, do I find myself suddenly out of range ? 11. I'd like to see Arrow types something like +damage, +chance to hit, and +chance to crit. Maybe even combine all 3 on each arrow. So rounded arrows are +damage, -chance to hit, and no change to crit for example. <p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:17 AM</span>

[Mirdo]

<P>Here's another one:</P> <P>If you buy from a non-guild crafter, have fun with the logistics of manually transferring your order around on a regular basis (and then storing). 10k arrows for what, 2 weeks? That's 100 stacks for a single high playtime player.  What fun for the Ranger and crafter. Has anybody considered just how many arrows, even with the changes to CA's that crafters will have to make and then transfer? </P> <P>Any of these arrangements going on now will be between one or at most two players I would guess. Let's hope there are enough woodworkers in the game with the patience and time to grind out thousands upon thousands of arrows per week to keep 10 or so Rangers supplied.</P> <P>Woo Hoo. Great times ahead. I can hardly wait.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P> <P> </P>

[Deson]

Really just want to know how this sounds. I'm keeping in mind rangers aren't the only arrow users.<ul><li>Keep ranger summoned arrows equal to crafted standard arrows.This still leaves the specialty arrows as a viable tradeskill product for rangers but, as specialty are situational, it shouldn't be too onerous.</li></ul><ul><li> Adjust the recast of summons or the yield to match player crafted per unit of time. As a woodworker, I can do on the low-end 1 craft a minute, assuming the current recast of 10 mins, that's 1000 arrows. This should help reduce the problem of paying for DPS to almost negligible.</li></ul><ul><li>Change the summons skills to always summon tier appropriate arrows. If there is an insistance on keeping the  +14 upgrades, have those upgrades only increase the damage done or arrow yeild. </li></ul>

[dubbs]

<P>I still think the best solution would be to eliminate the whole consumable arrow idea altogether.</P> <P>Instead, each tier the WoodWorker gets recipes for "Bundles of Arrows"  a non-consumable item that is placed in the quiver.</P> <P>There should be 6 different recipes, both a Hand Crafted and a Master Crafted version of crushing, piercing, slashing bundles.</P> <P>Rangers don't have to continue to buy a ton of arrows and Woodworkers get something to sell (and 6 recipes as opposed to the current 3).</P>

[Deson]

<div><blockquote><hr>dubbs wrote:<div></div> <p>I still think the best solution would be to eliminate the whole consumable arrow idea altogether.</p> <p>Instead, each tier the WoodWorker gets recipes for "Bundles of Arrows"  a non-consumable item that is placed in the quiver.</p> <p>There should be 6 different recipes, both a Hand Crafted and a Master Crafted version of crushing, piercing, slashing bundles.</p> <p>Rangers don't have to continue to buy a ton of arrows and Woodworkers get something to sell (and 6 recipes as opposed to the current 3).</p><hr></blockquote>Yes but, rangers aren't the only ones that use arrows adn I think that's a major point they consider. What I posted makes rangers primarily self sufficient except when they choose other options and everyone else still consumes arrows as an optional damage source.</div>

[ArivenGemini]

<div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ariven wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Rothgar1 wrote:</blockquote>Would there be the possibility to let us treat quivers like bags and equip them in a bag slot.. so for example I could swap out ammo types with a simple swap of the quiver instead of moving multiple stacks?</div> <hr> </blockquote>you can. bongo has 2 quivers just to hold enough arrows.<hr></blockquote>Cool, thanks bongo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[dubbs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deson wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <P>I still think the best solution would be to eliminate the whole consumable arrow idea altogether.</P> <P>Instead, each tier the WoodWorker gets recipes for "Bundles of Arrows"  a non-consumable item that is placed in the quiver.</P> <P>There should be 6 different recipes, both a Hand Crafted and a Master Crafted version of crushing, piercing, slashing bundles.</P> <P>Rangers don't have to continue to buy a ton of arrows and Woodworkers get something to sell (and 6 recipes as opposed to the current 3).</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes but, rangers aren't the only ones that use arrows adn I think that's a major point they consider. What I posted makes rangers primarily self sufficient except when they choose other options and everyone else still consumes arrows as an optional damage source.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who said only rangers could buy the "Bundle of Arrows"?  It would be useable by all classes, of course you could make other Bundle types too for all types of Throwing weapons.

[Boramyr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Magroo wrote:<BR> In general this is good news, but I have mixed feelings on the details of this:<BR><BR><BR>4. T8 summoned ammo being better than T7 ammo makes sense to me. It would be nice though if the very best player made T7 ammo did the same damage as the summoned T8, so those Rangers who didn't have the bow but still wanted to try to keep up with the DPS can spend money to do so. As their bow isn't as good they are always going to lag behind, so the T8 guys will still parse above them (unless they are slacking !!!) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>5. When level cap is increased to 80 (??), that T8 summoned ammo is not going to be the one to use, so this should make things interesting for those bow users...<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <SPAN class=date_text>02-01-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:17 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>A slight flaw in your logic here is that its T8 LEGENDARY ammo.</P> <P>since the game works like this </P> <P>No Flag < Handcrafted < Treasured < Mastercrafted < Legendary < Fabled < Mythical</P> <P>And T7 < T8 </P> <P>The Ammo from Bazkul, Ichorstrand, and the Membranous Spined Sheath better be more damage than anything else other than the Fabled Emerald Halls arrows and any other fabled/legendary T8 ammo they decide to add,  until they put in T9 ammo of any type.   If its not they are Nerfing the weapons and will have to completely readjust the system when they raise the level caps.  </P> <P> </P>

[Barramundi]

I will use less arrows, but to strive for my best dps I have to pay for arrows that I could summon before. On top of paying for poisons I now have to pay more to play my class. Why was this good news?<div></div>

[Saihung23]

<P>I don't quite know what to make of this proposed set of changes.  I am glad that they are at least making an attempt on this issue, however, I do believe that anytime you make part of the solution to our arrow consumption issues based upon another players whims (read:  woodworker pricing) then you are not giving us a solution but more of a patchwork fix.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>I have no doubt that SOME woodworkers will price the arrows reasonably.  However, I believe for the most part in the greedy nature of man and that woodworkers for the most part know that our [Removed for Content] are in a sling on this and will gouge us rangers.</P> <P>Again...I like the attention put on finding a fix.  However, I am apprehensive of the proposed changes.</P> <P> </P> <P>I will play the wait and see game though.  It has been this long with little to no contact that it isnt going to be any different waiting to see.</P> <P> </P> <P>I for one will not be the one to sit here in the forum and complain about the proposed changes till I see them in effect.  I will not make myself dread Developer Attention on this issue. And I will not discourage new rangers by pretending to know it all when I don't.</P> <P>I will wait and see.  If I have a desire to help on test I will do so.  I very likely will be making a test character to take the arrows our for  a test drive.</P>

[Bithnar]

This is good news on the surface.  But instead of summoned arrows<Vendor bought<crafted<T8 ammo make it so that our summoned line=vendor bought<crafted<T8 summoned. And making our summoned line and vendor bought arrows the base line on damage.  I see no reason to make our summoned arrows do less damage that store bought.  I would also like to see them change the summon line to be like a pet type spell where is summons tier appropreate arrows.  I just hit 52 and I have another whole 10 levels before I get ammo thats tier appropreate (unless I want to spend tons of money or time to get tier appropreate ammo).  I am a wood worker as well so this isn't as big a hit to me on arrows but I would rather be out adventuring that chained to a work table for several hours a week just to have good ammo.<div></div>

[Deson]

<div><blockquote><hr>dubbs wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Deson wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> dubbs wrote: <div></div> <p>I still think the best solution would be to eliminate the whole consumable arrow idea altogether.</p> <p>Instead, each tier the WoodWorker gets recipes for "Bundles of Arrows"  a non-consumable item that is placed in the quiver.</p> <p>There should be 6 different recipes, both a Hand Crafted and a Master Crafted version of crushing, piercing, slashing bundles.</p> <p>Rangers don't have to continue to buy a ton of arrows and Woodworkers get something to sell (and 6 recipes as opposed to the current 3).</p> <hr> </blockquote>Yes but, rangers aren't the only ones that use arrows adn I think that's a major point they consider. What I posted makes rangers primarily self sufficient except when they choose other options and everyone else still consumes arrows as an optional damage source.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Who said only rangers could buy the "Bundle of Arrows"?  It would be useable by all classes, of course you could make other Bundle types too for all types of Throwing weapons.<hr></blockquote>No one said it would be ranger only, I said rangers not being the only ones that use arrows is the reason it can't/won't be done.Note that if you look for my posts in other ranger/arrow use threads I suggested almost exaclty what you said. I even went a step further and said bows should just assume they have arrows for current base damage and every ammo piece should be considered special.For every class but rangers- especially after the CA changes- ranged is optional. They don't want to remove this cost but, it affects rangers disproportionately. My suggestion was trying to allieviate the ranger issue while leaving ammo management a viable balance tool against everyone else.</div>

[Lev]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>jb11740 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RabbitFly wrote: <div></div>What you fail to understand is standing around summoning arrows = spending time you could have spent making cash, so with the reduction in consumption and the lowering of price it will all in all be more proficient to buy crafted arrows than to stand there and summon, even if you do not consider dmg.Also, Sparql, that is great and I hope every woodworker feel that way, I was just considering the time vs gain. Seeing as this has not changed. <div></div> <p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class="date_text">01-31-2007</span> <span class="time_text">03:36 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>Actually, I understand perfectly.</p> <p>I think what you fail to understand is that we will still be paying to use our primary auto-attack, and perhaps more than before, to maintain previous damage levels. No other class in the game has to do that, or ever has. </p> <p>You're assuming the price will be lower than vendor arrows. I hope it is, but until the recipe is updated, until woodworkers are in full swing, and until the market stabilizes, we won't know that.</p> <p>Don't get me wrong. I already stated that the change to arrow consumption for CA's is wonderful, and I will be grateful when it goes live.  But reducing the effectiveness of the free arrows for the only class that requires them for primary auto-attack, with an option to pay to keep that effectiveness, is adding a cost component that did not exist previously.</p> <p>That's the only conclusion possible, if you look at it honestly. Sorry.</p> <p>So it's pretty simple. Make this a win for everyone involved, by keeping the cost and effectiveness of existing arrows the same, and making player crafted arrows substantially better than free or vendor arrows, but not nearly as good as legendary or fabled arrows. Give woodworkers quadruple yields on pristine, just like other crafted consumables, to make it worth their time and effort, and to make it economically feasible to improve your DPS if you chose to purchase the arrows to do so.</p> <p>What I am asking for is a very minor tweak on what is already on the table.</p> <p>And thanks again to the devs for working to fix this. I know it must be difficult to balance all of the factors involved, without breaking some other aspect of gameplay, or unfairly penalizing some other class.</p> <hr></blockquote>Ok let me clearify.. I have always thought, and debated.. and still think and debate the fact that rangers have to spend money/time on being able to do their primary job, is flawed and highly unfair. So I do agree that the solution is not optimal, I just think you are underestimating the changes (not you alone of course). Recipes will have the same fuel requirements (this has been confirmed). Which means player crafted arrows will cost 1/4 of what they do now to make. So to further my point I decided I would do the math.one craft of t7 arrows is 4 sandpapers (a total of 1g 38s 24c) this is about 1s and 39 copper per arrow.Filling a quiver then requires 30g 27s 42c, this quiver will last you about 2 hours of total adventuring, in which time you should be able to make 1-5p depending on type of hunting and luck of roll. Filling a quiver using makeshift arrows (from my post on the Arrows - Bloody Hell thread)adept 1 - 9 hours and 30 minutes = 2000 arrowsadept 3 - 7 hours and 20 minutes = 2000 arrowsMaster 1 - 5 hours and 30 minutes =2000 arrowsBest case scenario, you have master1 and spent 5 aps into your makeshift skill. and it takes you 2 hours and 45minutes to fill a quiver (ca numbers as a full dragonhide quiver is slightly more than 2k).This best case scenario includes spending lots of plat on a master in huge demand, and spending 5 aps you would probably not chose to have cause you need those elsewhere. And even then you cannot deny the fact that buying crafted arrows at cost will still be cheaper.2 hours and 15 minutes should in the very least give you a plat, and very likely alot more than that. Of course this is highly depending on where you hunt and your luck in the RNG.As I said this is not the optimal solution, but thinking that you now have to spend more money on arrows than you had to before is not the case. Seeing as standing around just summoning arrows would net you a profit of 0.Then you take into the consideration of the consumption rate which now will be considerably lower, in other words your one quiver of arrows worth 30g, should now give you almost twice the adventure time it used to, therefore doubleing your profits of your investment..As I said, and let me get you to focus on this, I do still not think this is the optimal solution as we are still required to spend money to do our primary job (and no thats not just good, thats just doing it at all). But thinking that this will make you spend more money than you used to (considering that time is money) is just plain wrong.Sorry if you felt threatened by my earlier post, it was not my intention to flame you or anyone. I just wanted you to understand the way these two changes snowball. And now you have the math to back it up in front of you.I guess one thing they could do, as allready stated by a few is make makeshift arrows better than vendor bought and therefore closing the gap between makeshift and crafted, or even make them equal. As this would lower our cost even more as the small bonus of making free arrows will help it a bit as well.EDIT:to add to the comment from a wizard asking for an Auto-attack that did the same ammount of dps that ours do, OMG you know some wizards would peak at 4500dps then?.. so in other words forget about it, reason you don't have this is because your spells do alot more dps than ours do, so thats just plain silly.</div><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class="date_text">02-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">07:48 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class="date_text">02-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">07:51 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:01 AM</span>

[valkyrja]

Just curious, as a wood worker.  2 part question, please answer seriously.1 - If this goes live as proposed, what do you consider to be a fairr price for crafted arrows when purchased on the broker? 2 - What would you consider to be a fair price for for crafted arrows when dealing with the woodworker directly (ie: placing an order)  And please, I am saying fair, as in realistically what would you pay without thinking "this woodworker sure is an over-charging [I cannot control my vocabulary]". <div></div>

[Lev]

That is a good point I did not take into consideration into my math, some of you have been complaining about greed from players.I think anything above 2x the fuel cost price is unfair, especially when it comes to stuff like arrows that will be sold in huge bunks. The problem (that I have stated before) is that the the time spent crafting vs. money gained from selling ratio have not changed at all with these changes. And this is a totally different kind of snowballing, as countering this they would have to make even more arrows per craft, with a higher fuel cost (giving them more possible profit per craft without heightening the cost of arrows), and also make ammo stacks be much larger to not nerf the woodworkers broker slots.I have allready suggested (in another thread I think), that they should up it 5x and fuel cost 5x.. to make the time constraint on the woodworker more worthwhile, the only problem is as I allready said is the ammount of broker slots the woodworker will have to use on arrows to keep up with demand.<div></div>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:That is a good point I did not take into consideration into my math, some of you have been complaining about greed from players.I think anything above 2x the fuel cost price is unfair, especially when it comes to stuff like arrows that will be sold in huge bunks. The problem (that I have stated before) is that the the time spent crafting vs. money gained from selling ratio have not changed at all with these changes. And this is a totally different kind of snowballing, as countering this they would have to make even more arrows per craft, with a higher fuel cost (giving them more possible profit per craft without heightening the cost of arrows), and also make ammo stacks be much larger to not nerf the woodworkers broker slots.I have allready suggested (in another thread I think), that they should up it 5x and fuel cost 5x.. to make the time constraint on the woodworker more worthwhile, the only problem is as I allready said is the ammount of broker slots the woodworker will have to use on arrows to keep up with demand.<div></div><hr></blockquote>The broker slots isn't too much of a concern, they can go in weapon racks which have 80 slots.  I don't picture having more than 8000 arrows up at any given time, as ideally I'd prefer to take orders from reliable customers.  Secondly, profit from crafting vs. adventuring isn't much of a concern for me because I tend to craft when I don't feel like adventuring.  </div>

[Lev]

ok then what about profit vs time spent?would 1g per craft be a decent profit for you? (1g being the profit not the price)<div></div>

[Hisvet]

<P>First of all, Rothgar made an extremely unfortunate decision saying our auto attack damage is not much.  That was just so wrong and flippant.  We're a class that scrutinizes every single percent of our dps in the same way other classes do their mitigation or healing etc.  We make choices of gear and AAs based on 1% dps.  Autoattack is a HUGE portion of our damage anywhere from 35-50% of our damage depending on playstyle, we cannot even suppress how much damage autoattack is for us even spamming CAs we're getting at least a third of our damage from it.  I'm not sure there's a single class or person that wouldn't say 1/3 or more is an insignificant portion of dps.</P> <P>Next to the wizard complaining about consumables.  We ALSO consume potions and totems, and food, and repairs, and buy spells.  So We use potions of power, str, int etc like everyone else in the game.  We use totems for power regen, health regen see invis/stealth like everyone else in the game.  We eat food and drink like everyone else in the game and repair and get our A3s and masters.  We ALSO use poisons like 3 other classes in the game.  We ALSO buy ammo, and must buy ammo for our primary dps like 0 other classes in the game.   Believe me we pay for our dps and I'm sick of it.</P> <P>I have nothing against woodworkers.  I buy totems from them, I commission specialty arrows for the drake from them and when they used to be able to make rare arrows I bought those too.  But we should *not* be forced to buy from anywhere to maintain decent dps with our primary skills when we are a primary dps class!</P> <P>This just invalidated not only a whole CA line but a new EOF 5 point AA too.  This makes the DT bows even MORE valuable seeing as we have had no hints or promise of level cap increases any time soon.   I didn't always have time to summon the arrows I needed to raid, so I supplement them with vendor.  Sometimes people were kind enough to buy from the vendor to help me with the costs.   That was a situation that was ridiculous.</P> <P>The new situation is even more tenuous.  My summoned arrows will become terrible, a line people have sunk a ton of plat, months searching some even have their M2s in it and 5 points from EOF aa for it.  The vendor arrows will become a little worse than they currently are.  Players who make arrows will NOT be charging 3/4 less than they were for a stack just because they can make 4 times more, because they weren't getting a profit anyway.  If it takes a woodworkers 1-2 hours or more to make arrows for one ranger's use in one raid sure they should be paid for it they will therefore price accordingly.</P> <P>The worst way to realize a profit is mass marketing when you do not have an automated system of assembly.  Arrow profitability only works when you keep prices low and make a ton.  Since individual players still have to do that crafting I bet that will get old pretty fast.  I'll want to have good ammo for good dps.  But hey, a scintillating dust on Antonia Bayle goes for 20+ gold apiece.  I'm already going through a plat of poisons and potions per raid.  If my ammo consumption drops to half of what it is now I still see a huge expenditure coming IF the woodworkers want a profit worth the crafting time.</P> <P>In which case this is still senseless.  Rangers are STILL paying for their dps in a way nobody else is.  We are beholden to either players or vendors, and players tend to be more arbitrary and capricious.  Unless we actually eliminate a dependency to pay for ammo that is of good quality for our dps that situation will not go away.</P> <P>I'm sure we as rangers would be happy to support our fellow crafters by spending money for cool things.  We buy adornments, we buy additional things that will give us an edge.  Something like cool arrows that will do more damage or elemental damage or something sure we would be willing to pay for.</P> <P>But reducing the damage on vendor and summoned ammo to force us to pay for what should be a luxury item out of ignorance for where our damage is coming from is uncalled for.  We're doing pretty good as is barring extreme poverty in some cases or annoyance in others, we are highly gear dependent for extremely rare drop items that you've already screwed with by allowing even more classes to use and get the bows we need.  Ammo has been a sore spot all the way through.  We need it, you keep doing things to make us need as good as we can get and you keep making it pricey.</P> <P>Heck if I have to keep paying through the nose for my dps I better be doing some [I cannot control my vocabulary] fine dps and after raiding with the casters last night post the new spell resistance lowerings I think we can say that is not the status quo.   ((kudos to the casters for the damage but this is a ranger forum on a ranger issue)).   You are making these rare bows even more of a desperate case for us.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Hisvet on <SPAN class=date_text>02-01-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:24 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Hisvet on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[Anxi]

<P>Interesting changes coming. Reading through the thread and I want to comment on a few things:</P> <P> </P> <OL> <LI>Several people stated that we effectively have to pay for our damage and this is wrong. I totally agree with this. Yes other scouts pay for poisons but NOT for their primary damage time. Everytime I shoot an arrow its going to cost me XXX amount. That's not right.</LI> <LI>Any ranger who wants to perform effectively will not use the summoned arrow lines. Maybe we should consider just removing this line and the arrow rip line and replace them with other abilities. Perhaps a group buff that increases Raw attack rating similar to the spirit of the predator line from EQ1. </LI> <LI>We are at the mercy of a tradeskill class, this is wrong on many levels. SOME woodworkers WILL try to exploit this to make money. I feel lucky I am a 70 woodworker so I can be more or less self-suffcient.</LI> <LI>It would be really neat to see different magical damage type arrows to. Maybe they would be made from rare harvests or something. But having arrows that deal fire, cold or perhaps a poison DoT would be rather neat. </LI></OL>

[TeflonS7]

I think Bithnar has the right idea.  Make our summoned arrows stay the same in dmg output, and all others built around that value.  That way we won't have any more cost to keep the same dps we may be doing now.  And provided that is what they do, I certainly wouldn't mind purchasing a few stacks of higher quality arrows for more dps, kinda like going from regular to mastercrafted poisons.  I just don't want to have to spend money just to keep the same dps I'm doing now.  Another thing that might be good would be to up the dmg amount on upgrades of the summoning line.

[Emperors]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sparql wrote:<BR>Just curious, as a wood worker.  <BR><BR>2 part question, please answer seriously.<BR><BR>1 - If this goes live as proposed, what do you consider to be a fairr price for crafted arrows when purchased on the broker? <BR><BR>2 - What would you consider to be a fair price for for crafted arrows when dealing with the woodworker directly (ie: placing an order)<BR><BR>  And please, I am saying fair, as in realistically what would you pay without thinking "this woodworker sure is an over-charging [I cannot control my vocabulary]". <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).</P> <P>Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.</P> <P>For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.</P>

[Deson]

<div><blockquote><hr>Emperors wrote:<div></div><p>You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).</p> <p><b>Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.</b></p> <p>For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.</p><hr></blockquote>It's hardly unfair. You shouldn't be paying for your base damage and rangers aren't the only ones that use ammo.</div>

[Emperors]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deson wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Emperors wrote:<BR> <P>You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).</P> <P><B>Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.</B></P> <P>For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's hardly unfair. You shouldn't be paying for your base damage and rangers aren't the only ones that use ammo.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I understand that we aren't the only ones that use ammo, but I'm afraid I don't undertand what it is you were trying to say.  Would you mind rephrasing please?

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  <b>Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine. </b> Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.<div></div>The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.<hr></blockquote>Again I must ask are we playing the same game as the devs. Where the hell do they get these ideas. This is ridiculous and just like the post by Moor that said "if procs make up 50% of ranger damage then something is wrong". Well guess what procs did make up alot of our damage as they found out when the crushed our damage with the proc change and then scrambled to make up for it.Auto-attack makes up 30%-40% of my damage and I use Raincaller. I also parse around 1500 zone wide so that is a significant portion of damage. Again WHAT THE HELL GAME ARE THE DEVS PLAYING!!! How can they make such an obvious oversight. It never fails to amaze me how little the devs understand their own game.This change is better but all it does is make us be strapped to the teet of a woodworker.</div>

[Lev]

I think what he meant was that it would not be directly unbalancing towards woodworkers because there are other classes that use ammo and therefore they would still be able to sell ammo..<div></div>

[Emperors]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RabbitFly wrote:<BR>I think what he meant was that it would not be directly unbalancing towards woodworkers because there are other classes that use ammo and therefore they would still be able to sell ammo..<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ah, yes ok thanks for clarifying.  If that's what he meant then yes I totally agree with him.  Bottom line I'd say is, it's wrong to make Ranger's pay for their dps.

[Deson]

<div><blockquote><hr>Emperors wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Deson wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Emperors wrote: <div></div> <p>You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).</p> <p><b>Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.</b></p> <p>For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.</p> <hr> </blockquote>It's hardly unfair. You shouldn't be paying for your base damage and rangers aren't the only ones that use ammo.</div> <hr> </blockquote>I understand that we aren't the only ones that use ammo, but I'm afraid I don't undertand what it is you were trying to say.  Would you mind rephrasing please?<hr></blockquote>Sure. All arrow conversations take place as though rangers are the only ones that use arrows/ammo.  I was pointing out that it's not unfair to woodworkers for the Ranger issue to be fixed because there are still other classes that would be buying ammo. It's totally unfair and unrealistic to expect the majority of woodworker profit to come from just one class.</div>

[Lordaniel]

<P>As you can read in the thread in the tradeskill forum from a post from Ilucide (Game Designer) from the same day then this thread was started, summond arrows should not be changed and therefore stay better than store bought which will be lowered for AA damage.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=127741&view=by_date_ascending&page=4" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=127741&view=by_date_ascending&page=4</A></P> <P>It would be cool to get some response what the actual plans in the design and dev team really are (hope they are the same).</P>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lordaniel wrote:<div></div> <p>As you can read in the thread in the tradeskill forum from a post from Ilucide (Game Designer) from the same day then this thread was started, summond arrows should not be changed and therefore stay better than store bought which will be lowered for AA damage.</p> <p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=127741&view=by_date_ascending&page=4" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=127741&view=by_date_ascending&page=4</a></p> <p>It would be cool to get some response what the actual plans in the design and dev team really are (hope they are the same).</p><hr></blockquote>It does not matter if summoned arrows remain unchanged. They are still going to be less than player made - it is a nerf no matter how you cut it. Any ranger that wants to do max damage will have to buy arrows. Again, we are stuck buying arrows. I am still flabbergasted at how little the devs know about the ranger class and how every fix they try to put in is misguided and founded on erroneous data gathered from their supposed playing of the class. He probably played to level 20 solo and came to the conclusion that auto-attack is not much damage for us./rollseyes.Everyone should send a PM to him and make him come back and address his misconception. And prove to us that we are not going to be strapped to a woodworker.</div>

[dubbs]

<P>I'm going to make a list of proposed changes.  I think the idea of mass use of consumables is a great idea, especially if the consumables are made by other players.</P> <P>Priests:  Prayer Totems  Each heal that the priest casts now consumes a Prayer Totem that allows the player to focus his energy into healing.</P> <P>Melee fighters:  Whetstones:  For every x attacks, a whetstone is consumed as blades need to be kept sharp at all times.</P> <P>Casters:  Spell Components:  The majority of all caster's spells now require the consumption of specific spell components.</P> <P>Tanks:  Repair Kits (New Type):  Even though the tank doesn't die, he is still getting beat on and his armor now takes damage.  In order to keep it in good repair he now has to periodically use repair kits.</P> <P>Of course each class will have a SUB PAR ability to summon x number of each consumable, but be warned  these abilities do not scale properly and you will often times be left with only the ability to summon consumables a whole tier below your current needs.</P> <P>However,  TRADESKILLERS REJOICE,  just look at all the new recipes they will be able to make.  Possibly even different prayer totems for each class of healer, maybe even different ones for if you want to cast a solo heal, group heal, reactive, HoT, ward...omg the possibilities are endless!!</P> <P>And rest assured they are all sleeping happy tonight when they know they are the only source fir the best possible consumables because vendor bought stuff is now complete junk.</P> <P> </P> <P>/sarcasm off</P> <P> </P>

[Lev]

Bentgate please read my post. No matter how much it aggrivates you to have to buy ammo, and me, this is still a huge improvement and should not be considered a nerf.<div></div>

[Giland]

Rangers are the only one with an arrow summon CA right? (don't know if assasins get it or not)Why does summoned arrows need to be lowered? Why can't summoned = vendor?They are no drop, so I can't trade them, so it doesn't effect any other class.I use more than any other class possibly could anyway.Leave summoned and vendor as they are now (equal) and leave them for the same damage. Make the player crafted give their damage bonus with base the same as summoned/vendor(or however they are doing it), and everyone will be happy.I don't see why the vendor needs me to buy arrows from them. No one buys their armor, their weapons, and vary, vary rarely, their app2 spells.Why do they suddenly need my business for arrows? Let the tank classes and other scouts buy their arrows from them, let me summon my own, and make both equal.<div></div>

[Boramyr]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RabbitFly wrote:<BR>Bentgate please read my post. No matter how much it aggrivates you to have to buy ammo, and me, this is still a huge improvement and should not be considered a nerf.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Its handing us a much needed fix in one hand and then slapping us in the face with a nerf with the other while we're in the middle of saying thank you.  </DIV>

[BigChiefJJ]

<P>I'm actually excited about this proposal even though its not a complete fix, it should be a step in the right direction.  Arrow consumption should go down tremendously since every ranged hit does not use an arrow now, only the auto attacks.</P> <P>In regards to the pricing of arrows - sure every ranger out there that wants to maximinze dps will be using player crafted arrows - the summoning line will be for solo adventruing and helping friends with lower lvl mobs.  So now its about buying arrows from woodworkers.  Looking at costs it will still hurt but maybe not as bad as it did before.  If i have to fill up my 22 slot quiver it will cost the following based on what a woodworker would charge per arrow:</P> <P>1.4sp per arrow (fuel only) = 1.38 gp per stack = 30.41 per quiver = 36.49 per quiver with 20% broker fee</P> <P>2 sp per arrow = 1.98 gp per stack = 43.56 per quiver = 52.27 per quiver with broker fees</P> <P>3 sp per arrow = 2.97 gp per stack = 65.34 per quiver = 78.41 per quiver with broker fees</P> <P>4 sp per arrow = 3.96 gp per stack = 87.12 per quiver = 104.54 per quiver with broker fees</P> <P>How much profit should a tradeskiller make per combine? the above prices allow the woodworker to make 0, 0.6gp, 1.59 gp, or 2.58 gp per pristine combine if you assume fuel cost only and dont place a price on raw materials and if SOE decides to keep the fuel and raw material cost the same.  I know they said that would but......</P> <P> </P> <P>Not sure how these profits work when compared to what poison cost to make (I dont have an alchemist) -but if people are charging 30 sp for a poison and make 10 in a combine - does it cost them 3 gp in fuel? will we see this same mark-up on arrows?</P>

[Lev]

<div><blockquote><hr>Boramyr wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> RabbitFly wrote:Bentgate please read my post. No matter how much it aggrivates you to have to buy ammo, and me, this is still a huge improvement and should not be considered a nerf. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Its handing us a much needed fix in one hand and then slapping us in the face with a nerf with the other while we're in the middle of saying thank you.  </div><hr></blockquote>No it's not the fact that crafted arrows will be a requiredment does not automaticly mean you will spend more cas on arrows now, which is why I made the post with the math. I agree this isn't optimal (think I have said this 10 times now), but this is not a nerf in anyway.If you are currently only using makeshift arrows and tend to spend alot of time standing around summoning arrows, then you will be spending less money on arrows, if you are one that allready were spending money on vendor bought arrows then you will be spending less money on arrows, if you are one of those that have a t8 ammo bow, you won't get affected, except that you don't "HAVE" to keep as many arrows on you at all times.</div>

[Jaggid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>This has been a hot topic for awhile and I'm pleased to say that GU32 will bring some nice changes.  Combat arts will no longer consume ammo with the next live update.  Only your auto-attack will use arrows.<BR><BR>Arrow damage is also being looked at and balanced so there will be a benefit to using better arrows.  Summoned arrows will provide the lowest damage, with vendor bought arrows being slightly better.  Crafted arrows will give the best dps, and among the three types of crafted arrows, each one will enhance either range, accuracy or damage.   Woodworkers will see an increase in arrow yield for each recipe which will bring the price of crafted arrows down.  This in combination with them only being used for auto-attack should make it very feasible to use crafted arrows if you want to maximize your dps.  Keep in mind this will only affect the damage amounts on auto-attacks and not on combat arts. CA damage will still be affected by your stats and the tier of your bow.<BR><BR>If you have any questions or concerns about this change, I'll try to help.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I am quite happy and satisfied with this resolution, SOE has earned a little respect with this response, now I hope that this comes through.<BR>

[EQ2Magroo]

If the DPS is set as below, and *gathered DPS remains the same as now* then I don't see how it's a nerf, or how anyone can complain. Nothing has been made worse - our DPS is the same, our costs have been massively reduced, and Woodworkers might be able to sell some arrows (rather than selling a big fat zero now)Arrow DPS: Vendor < Gathered < Player MadeOK, there's the potential for non Scout classes to increase their DPS by using player made arrows, but good luck to them I say. It's not going to make a huge difference as we're talking maybe 1 or 2 arrows before they have to switch to melee. I can also guarantee that 99% of them will flat out refuse to pay for the DPS increase. How many of them use anything other than tin arrows anyway ? Maybe they will finally begin to understand why we've been complaining so much.Now if the devs are crazy enough to reduce gathered arrow DPS even 1 point, and make vendor ammo better than gathered then I think I'll finally get the hint that the don't really want my money and quit playing once and for all.<div></div>

[MoonglumHMV]

<P>Just to ask, since I'm not a raider in any way at all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </P> <P>One of the people that have parses for how much damage % auto attack is, does that parse also have a number with it for the number of times "peirce" was used?  I just want to see if somone can put a number to an average raid zone for the number of auto attacks that we use.  </P> <P>That might get a starting point for the new arrow consumption rate.  If we get down to just auto-attack using actual arrows, maybe we'll find that we would only use say 800 arrows/raid or something (made up number) rather than 4000+ that people are saying.  </P> <P>I'm not getting into the "paying for DPS" argument, just wondering if we have an estimate on how many arrows would be used.</P>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>EQ2Magroo wrote:If the DPS is set as below, and *gathered DPS remains the same as now* then I don't see how it's a nerf, or how anyone can complain. Nothing has been made worse - our DPS is the same, our costs have been massively reduced, and Woodworkers might be able to sell some arrows (rather than selling a big fat zero now)Arrow DPS: Vendor < Gathered < Player MadeOK, there's the potential for non Scout classes to increase their DPS by using player made arrows, but good luck to them I say. It's not going to make a huge difference as we're talking maybe 1 or 2 arrows before they have to switch to melee. I can also guarantee that 99% of them will flat out refuse to pay for the DPS increase. How many of them use anything other than tin arrows anyway ? Maybe they will finally begin to understand why we've been complaining so much.<b>Now if the devs are crazy enough to reduce gathered arrow DPS even 1 point, a</b>nd make vendor ammo better than gathered then I think I'll finally get the hint that the don't really want my money and quit playing once and for all.<div></div><hr></blockquote>That is what they are doing. Summoned arrows will be 6% less damage. So our summon arrow skill is now junk. Let me repeat. <b>We will still have to buy arrows to perform our job to the utmost.  </b>This is replacing one broken mechanic with another. Dont get me wrong I am glad that our CAs dont use arrows. I mostly raid, so most of my arrow consumption comes from auto-attack anyways so this hurts us more than anyone else.Leave summoned alone. That is the only way to be fair. </div>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Emperors wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> sparql wrote:Just curious, as a wood worker.  2 part question, please answer seriously.1 - If this goes live as proposed, what do you consider to be a fairr price for crafted arrows when purchased on the broker? 2 - What would you consider to be a fair price for for crafted arrows when dealing with the woodworker directly (ie: placing an order)  And please, I am saying fair, as in realistically what would you pay without thinking "this woodworker sure is an over-charging [I cannot control my vocabulary]". <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You see, that's kind of the point we are trying to make.  It's not fair for us to have to pay anything for the means to fulfill our primary role (and let's face it, our job is DPS because as an SK in my guild pointed out, the only group buff I was giving him was pathfinding).</p> <p>Now, I can see how us wanting to not pay for our dps is unfair to you woodworkers which is why we are asking the DEVS to rethink their fix for both of our problems.</p> <p>For the record, I like having our CA's not use arrows, but at the same time don't appreciate being told that to do optimal DPS we have to pay for arrows.  Especially since like all scouts we have to pay for poisons, and like everyone else we have to pay for spell/skill upgrades and pay/hunt for great gear.</p><hr></blockquote>You still didn't answer my question.  I could care less if you find it ethically "fair" that you have to pay to do part of your DPS.  That isn't what I was asking.  I was asking, assuming you HAVE TO pay for part of your DPS what is a fair price for the crafter to charge you?  Ideally one of 2 things happen, 1 - All DPS classes have some form of consumable items they can use for good power-free auto attack.  And we're all on the same playing field.  Personally, I like this idea the most as I'd love to be able to keep up when I'm getting low on power.2 - Rangers no longer have to pay for arrows, which I can care less about because it doesn't effect me either way.  Because, I'm a wizard and I don't currently craft arrows because there is no reason for me to.Lastly, I doubt they will make summoned arrows do the damage they do now, with more damage for store bought, then crafted because then they will be essentially giving you all a free DPS increase.  </div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Boramyr wrote: <blockquote> <hr> EQ2Magroo wrote: <div></div>In general this is good news, but I have mixed feelings on the details of this:4. T8 summoned ammo being better than T7 ammo makes sense to me. It would be nice though if the very best player made T7 ammo did the same damage as the summoned T8, so those Rangers who didn't have the bow but still wanted to try to keep up with the DPS can spend money to do so. As their bow isn't as good they are always going to lag behind, so the T8 guys will still parse above them (unless they are slacking !!!) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />5. When level cap is increased to 80 (??), that T8 summoned ammo is not going to be the one to use, so this should make things interesting for those bow users... <p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class="date_text">02-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">04:17 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>A slight flaw in your logic here is that its T8 LEGENDARY ammo.</p> <p>since the game works like this </p> <p>No Flag < Handcrafted < Treasured < Mastercrafted < Legendary < Fabled < Mythical</p> <p>And T7 < T8 </p> <p>The Ammo from Bazkul, Ichorstrand, and the Membranous Spined Sheath better be more damage than anything else other than the Fabled Emerald Halls arrows and any other fabled/legendary T8 ammo they decide to add,  until they put in T9 ammo of any type.   If its not they are Nerfing the weapons and will have to completely readjust the system when they raise the level caps.  </p> <hr></blockquote>I'm not sure why the ammo is flagged as legendary, all other types of gathered arrows are just no-flag. Once people can level to 80 having the ammo as Legendary could cause some problems. It would completely destroy the arrow market at T8 (haha, stop laughing I know it's funny but I'm serious) and make the T8 summoned arrow spell pointless.Actually, I'd like to see arrow levels something like this: vendor = handcrafted (same as previous tier mastercrafted) gathered = treasured ( > handcrafted ammo) player made = mastercrafted (same as next tier handcrafted) The T8 ammo from those bows should be set to treasured. The actual word doesn't matter one bit, providing there is no nerf to damage output. The ammo would still be better than T7 player made arrows (see above), so it would easily be the best in game (as well as being free). Just to make it absolutely clear - the T8 ammo from those bows would still be the best in game at the current time. Nobody is calling for a DPS nerf. Don't touch the DPS, rather use these arrows as a base for T8 when it arrives.Once the level cap is increased then these bows would be giving ammo equal to Ranger T8 gathering spell. This makes a lot of sense to me. It's an additional method of getting arrows, so it still has some use, just not from a DPS point of view. Of course, let's not forget that there will be a whole bunch of new T8 bows with T9 ammo gathering etc. so I doubt anyone would want to use these old bows anyway. Or are we saying that these T7 bows should still be the be-all-end-all for a T8 Ranger ?</div>

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sparql wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>1 - All DPS classes have some form of consumable items they can use for good power-free auto attack.  And we're all on the same playing field.  Personally, I like this idea the most as I'd love to be able to keep up when I'm getting low on power.<BR><BR>2 - Rangers no longer have to pay for arrows, which I can care less about because it doesn't effect me either way.  Because, I'm a wizard and I don't currently craft arrows because there is no reason for me to.<BR><BR>Lastly, I doubt they will make summoned arrows do the damage they do now, with more damage for store bought, then crafted because then they will be essentially giving you all a free DPS increase.  <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1 - what consumable does a wizard or warlock have that's used in autoattack?<BR></P>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> sparql wrote: <div>1 - All DPS classes have some form of consumable items they can use for good power-free auto attack.  And we're all on the same playing field.  Personally, I like this idea the most as I'd love to be able to keep up when I'm getting low on power.2 - Rangers no longer have to pay for arrows, which I can care less about because it doesn't effect me either way.  Because, I'm a wizard and I don't currently craft arrows because there is no reason for me to.Lastly, I doubt they will make summoned arrows do the damage they do now, with more damage for store bought, then crafted because then they will be essentially giving you all a free DPS increase.  </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>1 - what consumable does a wizard or warlock have that's used in autoattack?</p><hr></blockquote>Perhaps you could re-read the entire post and see that these are suggestions to put everyone on the same playing field.We don't have consumables, and we also don't have any decent auto attack.  Give me a method of auto attack that I can do from range and I'd gladly pay for consumables.</div>

[Lev]

<div></div>Bentgate you are misunderstanding, Vendor arrows are being nerfed, not makeshift.There was some confusement but in the thread on the ts forums it is stated that they are not touching summoned arrows at all, what they are doing is increasing crafted arrows, so that summoned arrows will be less efficent than the new crafted arrows, not that they will be 6% worse than they are now.And stop bringing up the wizards have to use power potions etc etc.. we pay for poisons, and there is alot of rangers/scouts that use powerpotions stat potions etc etc.. as allready stated. And in any case it is a mute point, cause it is not required. Yea sure you need em to make the best out of your class, but when we are talking about arrows we are not talking about making the best out of our class we are simply talking about using our class at all. And comparing wizards not having a ranged auto attack is mute as well, cause then there is a huge misunderstanding in how rangers are balanced. Rangers AA is the way they balance out our dps.. Comparing CAs and Spells of most classes you will see that rangers are lower in almost all aspects, and we have AAs to compensate, if you really want to get a consumeable item to do ranged auto attacks do understand that it means a HUGE nerf for wizard spells (if it ever was to happen, as it happend to rangers).<div></div><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 AM</span>

[Rothgar]

Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps.  Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.I'm glad to hear that for most people this is a welcomed change.  As I said before, GU32 is still a month away and there's much tweaking to be done.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is so passionate about playing a Ranger and wants to make them the best they can be.  We are still discussing ammo quality, weapon quality and how they should interact with damage done by auto-attack and combat arts.  The book is by no means closed on this subject, so please be patient and continue to provide constructive feedback.  We are listening.<div></div>

[Boramyr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Magroo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure why the ammo is flagged as legendary, all other types of gathered arrows are just no-flag. Once people can level to 80 having the ammo as Legendary could cause some problems. It would completely destroy the arrow market at T8 (haha, stop laughing I know it's funny but I'm serious) and make the T8 summoned arrow spell pointless.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I doubt seriously that 3 items that drop off of two the hardest raid mobs in KOS in a restricted access raid zone would ruin any type of economy.  It would mean that us raiding rangers that worked hard enough and got lucky enough to get one of these Bows would have to wait until there is a Level 80 Fabled bow that summoned Level 80 Legendary arrows to get an upgrade and I'm fine with that, but it hardly affects the Economy in any grand way.   On all of Antonia Bayle I know of less than a dozen Bazkul ( I would assume the real number to be no more than two dozen)  Hardly enough out of the Thousands of Arrow users on the servers to make a dent in the economy. 

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sparql wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>We don't have consumables, and we also don't have any decent auto attack.  Give me a method of auto attack that I can do from range and I'd gladly pay for consumables.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The only reason you don't have a decent auto-attack is because you don't use your auto-attack.  If they gave Rangers the ability to use their ranged arts while standing within melee range (like mages), we'd all be up close and personal with the mobs almost all of the time.  And don't give me the excuse you that you wear cloth.  We get one-shotted just like you. We just look better because we wear chain.<BR></P> <P>It's easy to <STRONG>say</STRONG> you'll gladly pay for consumables.  But, actually dishing out the 8-10 plat a week to raid is whole different story.  We've all heard it before.</P>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>Ok, so it boils down to this.  Bottom line, in order to maximise our dps, we will STILL have to spend money on arrows.  </P> <P>Or we can NOT buy and fight strictly with CA's and summoned arrows and really fall off the dps radar.  Yes, I said not buy arrows.  Daunting concept I know.  So daunting as to be considered unthinkable.  Yet, let it simmer on the back burner a minute, and lets look at how our summoned arrows cost nothing but time.  Now those poisons and potions can jump to the top of our expenditure list.  I really feel sad for the woodworkers though, as they realize that all those stacks of ammo sit taking up space in the broker boxes, because they are being sold to the poorest class (money wise) overall I think in Everquest.  Depressing.  But wait you say, this is such a better deal for us Rangers!  We won't be spending as MUCH money!  Are you sure about that?  Yes our overall rate of arrow usage will go down when CA's stop consuming ammunition, but it doesn't stop it altogether, and thus we will still be buying arrows.  It will just take a bit longer to spend the same amount.  Or will it?  What controls the market price?  Demand.  Availability. Ease of manufacturing.  Now toss in the different tier levels and unequal disparity of arrow users at different tiers, and it isn't an equation with a simple straightforward answer. Also, with three different types of arrows, which one will be more in demand than the others?  From the lower levels, I would say bodkin every time.  Do slashing and crushing damage make THAT much difference when fighting a mob?  What would be the advantages of carrying such?  Or what will happen when a particular brand becomes unavailable?  Will we have to tell our group 'Sorry, they were out of Bodkin arrows on the broker, so I only did x amount of damage instead of Y damage'.  A wealthy ranger will have an advantage over a nonwealthy ranger in this scenario as well, simply because they can afford more and better.</P> <P>I am encouraged that solutions are being searched for, but I'm not exactly happy.  This isn't the Ultimate solution to solve our ammo woes, and I think it has some hidden pitfalls as well.  Please don't implement these changes without some really serious consideration to the factors that will come into play.  Don't reduce the damage of our summoned arrows or even vendor arrows.  That is punishing our class for no reason whatsoever.</P>

[Anxi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps.  <BR><BR>Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.<BR><BR>I'm glad to hear that for most people this is a welcomed change.  As I said before, GU32 is still a month away and there's much tweaking to be done.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is so passionate about playing a Ranger and wants to make them the best they can be.  <BR><BR>We are still discussing ammo quality, weapon quality and how they should interact with damage done by auto-attack and combat arts.  The book is by no means closed on this subject, so please be patient and continue to provide constructive feedback.  We are listening.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I doubt anyone has tried using the rounded arrows lately because:</P> <OL> <LI>Expensive to make</LI> <LI>Extremely time consuming to make.</LI></OL> <P>As I stated in the auto-attack damage thread. Any decrease to the summoned arrows damage output is a NERF that FORCES rangers to purchase their primary form of damage (arrows) in order to maintain their CURRENT DPS levels.</P> <P>So it's an option for us to PURCHASE our Primary form of damage. No, it looks like it might be a requirement. Other classes don't have this choice? True, and do you know why? Because they're not forced to make this choice. Our choice is simple; Deal subpar damage or spend money/time to deal the same DPS that other classes are not forced to pay for.</P> <P>BTW are these changes also going to affect throwing weapons?</P>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> sparql wrote: <div>We don't have consumables, and we also don't have any decent auto attack.  Give me a method of auto attack that I can do from range and I'd gladly pay for consumables. <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>The only reason you don't have a decent auto-attack is because you don't use your auto-attack.  If they gave Rangers the ability to use their ranged arts while standing within melee range (like mages), we'd all be up close and personal with the mobs almost all of the time.  And don't give me the excuse you that you wear cloth.  We get one-shotted just like you. We just look better because we wear chain.</p> <p>It's easy to <strong>say</strong> you'll gladly pay for consumables.  But, actually dishing out the 8-10 plat a week to raid is whole different story.  We've all heard it before.</p><hr></blockquote>Actually no, the reason we don't have decent auto attack, even from melee range, is that we don't have the weapon selection you do.  Wands or the occasional dagger don't have anywhere near the DR that is afforded to scout classes.  So even if I choose to melee, I can't do DECENT DPS.  This is actually an entirely different issue with itemization though, especially when the level cap is not increased and new content is added.  They continually make better and better melee items with higher DR, which raises DPS but casters don't have any growth in spell quality or at least good DRs.  Granted I don't want to melee, but it is obvious to me this is an area they haven't considered when doing itemization.  Any odd, that is not what this discussion is about.  As the only wizard in here, I have only brought up wizard concerns/issues as you guys have used us as examples to prove a point.  Lastly, you can't say that "we've heard it all before" because we have never been given the option to pay for DPS.  I have plenty of plat, so paying for consumables wouldn't make me angry if it was an expected expense for playing a DPS class.  I understand what makes you angry is that you're the only ones who have to currently do this.  Like I said, if it were my choice, all DPS classes would operate like you do.  But then again, I think tradeskills should require dependencies, and much more of what we use in the game should be made or enhanced by other players.  </div>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div>Rothgar, the point most of us are making and stand by is that we will still remain the only class that has to exist with a financial crutch regardless of how much this change helps us.  Our costs, however cheap you make them, are still exponentially higher then anyone else in the entire game.  The CA change is very welcome and we all appreciate that.  We all appreciate the fact atleast something is being done.  But no one should kid themselves into thinking this actually solves the problem.  For a raiding ranger, arrow costs are a pure money sink.  We cannot recoup the costs involved like we can while grouping.  Forcing us to invest additional time either farming money ( and subsequently using more arrows ) or standing around doing non-adventure related activities while we summon arrows. Maybe adding "Handcrafted" quality standard arrow summoning to some of the lower end T7 fabled bows on a 10 minute recast instead of 5 and leaving legendary quality to the DT bows.  This would provide most rangers still in the hunt for DT bows with higher quality arrows but still force us to dip into the market supply every so often.  Also if we wanted field point or broadhead, we'd still need to go to the market.  If the bonuses are worth-while ( field point's accuracy is something I will be watching closely ) I'd be willing to shell out the cash.  To me, that is a win-win for everyone.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 AM</span>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps.  Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.I'm glad to hear that for most people this is a welcomed change.  As I said before, GU32 is still a month away and there's much tweaking to be done.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is so passionate about playing a Ranger and wants to make them the best they can be.  We are still discussing ammo quality, weapon quality and how they should interact with damage done by auto-attack and combat arts.  The book is by no means closed on this subject, so please be patient and continue to provide constructive feedback.  We are listening.<div></div><hr></blockquote> You should run for politcal office with that statement, it's a good one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm sorry Rothgar, but you really don't understand the Ranger community or our complaints at all. What you are saying is that you will be nerfing our DPS if we use the same ammo compared to what we are doing now. I don't care if it's 1%, 6% or 50%. Do you see any Rangers (or other classes) complaining that our DPS is too high at the moment ? How can you not see that this is going to upset a lof of players ?Whilst I don't doubt your assertion that crafted adamantine arrows do more damage now, how much more are we talking about exaclty ? Is it 6%, 1% or perhaps it is less than that ?? Are you sure it's just not down to the RNG ?Anyway, talking about player made ammo at the current time is a moot point. You simply can't buy player crafted ammo as no Woodworker is stupid enough to make them, and no Ranger can afford them if the Woodworker prices them at anything approaching the cost/time it takes to make them. Sure I could probably increase my DPS by some tiny amount using player made ammo, but as a Woodworker it takes me 2 hours to make enough for 1 player for 1 raid, so they are unobtainable. You might as well say "well, simply go and buy the best fabled gear. And once you've got it, buy a whole new set the next day....and the next...".Please devs, get some involvement from real Rangers before you throw this change into the game. I'd be happy to test it out for you, as I'm sure everyone else here would.</div>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   <STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff3300>You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps.  <BR></FONT></U></STRONG><BR><FONT color=#0033ff><STRONG><U>Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.</U></STRONG></FONT>  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.<BR><BR>I'm glad to hear that for most people this is a welcomed change.  As I said before, GU32 is still a month away and there's much tweaking to be done.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is so passionate about playing a Ranger and wants to make them the best they can be.  <BR><BR>We are still discussing ammo quality, weapon quality and how they should interact with damage done by auto-attack and combat arts.  The book is by no means closed on this subject, so please be patient and continue to provide constructive feedback.  We are listening.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>As long as Rangers DPS is tweaked on the assumption that they are using summoned arrows, and this it a point that was brought up with KoS and then drifted away.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0033ff>Can you tell us by how much? A good number of Rangers have said they can't notice a difference between crafted and summoned at this point in the game... If that's not true and it's only a display issue that's preventing us from seeing it, could you tell us what makes crafted rounded arrows better than our summoned? I think that's a big issue that's been around forever that caused the Woodworker ammo market to crash. No noticable gain when parsing and no text on the examine window that says "Hey this is what this arrow will do for you."</FONT></P> <P>The only problem that I really see with this that stands out without having to play the changes it that it adds a layer of micromanagement if you're going to still use summoned arrows at all. Since I'm a woodworker I probably won't bother, but I don't see a reason that those rangers on a budget should have to swap quivers or stacks of arrows between fights. In fact quivers were added to the game so that this would not have to take place. Now you'll have one of three choices (unless you're lucky enough to have a T8 ammo bow). Toss the Summon Arrows CA and just use crafted all the time. Forget crafted and just eat the fact that your not doing as much DPS as you could. Or micro manage your arrow supply swaping quivers or stacks in and out based on what you're fighting. It just seems cumbersome.</P>

[dubbs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps.  <BR><BR>Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.<BR><BR>I'm glad to hear that for most people this is a welcomed change.  As I said before, GU32 is still a month away and there's much tweaking to be done.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is so passionate about playing a Ranger and wants to make them the best they can be.  <BR><BR>We are still discussing ammo quality, weapon quality and how they should interact with damage done by auto-attack and combat arts.  The book is by no means closed on this subject, so please be patient and continue to provide constructive feedback.  We are listening.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Please take off your rose-colored glasses and stop trying to paint a big smiley face across this nerf.  Because this is exactly what it is:  A Nerf.</P> <P>Ranger's, as a Community, have analyzed every aspect of their dps down to the last percent and can tell you exactly what is and what isn't wrong with the combat mechanics as relates to the ranger.  We know exactly where each point of damage comes from and where we gain the most benifit.  Trying to tell us that Auto Attack is not a significant portion of our DPS is just plain crap and any ranger worth his salt can sniff it out a mile away.  Now you are back-pedaling saying it's not the "majority of our damage", and CAs provide the bulk of our DPS?  </P> <P>Well...40% from auto, 10% from poisons, 5% from our offensive stance proc (Quick Shot), maybe another 2-3% from other procs  = ~57%.</P> <P>Hmm, sure sounds like CAs are the majority....</P> <P>Not meaning to flame you, but if you want to know about ranger mechanics, ask someone that's leveled, played and raided one.  Don't just create a toon, beta buff him, open up a parser and spout nonsence.</P> <P>As a great man once said "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's [I cannot control my vocabulary], but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it."</P>

[blackdog1]

Sparql,but here is the problem.Our auto attack is a third or more of our damage.We are under powered now.Your basicaly saying give a class that is out damaging another class by alot,an option to out damage it even more by spending money.We have to spend money just to be in the ball park of the dps you do without spending money.Take away our auto attack and we do a third less damage.Give you a means to buy an auto attack would give you a third more damage.How is that in any way,bringing us up to your level? <div></div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Boramyr wrote:<div></div>I doubt seriously that 3 items that drop off of two the hardest raid mobs in KOS in a restricted access raid zone would ruin any type of economy.  It would mean that us raiding rangers that worked hard enough and got lucky enough to get one of these Bows would have to wait until there is a Level 80 Fabled bow that summoned Level 80 Legendary arrows to get an upgrade and I'm fine with that, but it hardly affects the Economy in any grand way.   On all of Antonia Bayle I know of less than a dozen Bazkul ( I would assume the real number to be no more than two dozen)  Hardly enough out of the Thousands of Arrow users on the servers to make a dent in the economy. <hr></blockquote>That's a very good point actually, it likely wouldn't unbalance the market now that I think about it. Over time perhaps when more people got the bow, but then again they probably wouldn't as they'd all want the T8 version.So what they could do is something like: vendor = handcrafted (same as previous tier mastercrafted) gathered = treasured ( > handcrafted ammo) player made = mastercrafted (same as next tier handcrafted) bow summoned = legendary ( > mastercrafted)I'm not sure how much better they would be, probably enough to make you use them when you really want max DPS, but not so much that for less criticial raiding you can use the gathered/player made ones.Remember, we might realise that these bows are rare, but it seems that the devs assume everyone is using one when they are working out class balance.</div>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>rothgar wrote</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>No, why should I, to the first question.  They haven't been available and I'm not a woodworker.  And Everyone has taken the stance that we are required to buy arrows, including any specialty arrows!</P> <P>As to the logic of free summoned arrows, that is a fallacy, they cost time.  Ergo, not free.  Ergo, not needing a reduction in damage.  And aren't they already of slightly lesser quality anyway?  Not to mention the uber indium arrow summoned by arrow rip.</P>

[Emperors]

Well, at least we know we have their attention.  Now let's try to find a constructive way to fix our problems without us paying for it.  Who knows, maybe they'll actually listen.

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>blackdog1 wrote:Sparql,but here is the problem.Our auto attack is a third or more of our damage.We are under powered now.Your basicaly saying give a class that is out damaging another class by alot,an option to out damage it even more by spending money.We have to spend money just to be in the ball park of the dps you do without spending money.Take away our auto attack and we do a third less damage.Give you a means to buy an auto attack would give you a third more damage.How is that in any way,bringing us up to your level? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, I agree with you 100% actually.  If the system worked the way I would like, they would clearly need to rebalance to make up for it.  The good rangers in my guild do about the same DPS as me, depending on what our competing timers are on.  I don't think you guys are underpowered at all, in fact I'd say you're right about where you should be.I'm not trying to turn this into a Rangers vx Wizard fight, I truely am not.  But in theory, we should should both be in the top DPS spots.  At least according to class descriptions.  We have a tad more utility, and you have the benefit of chain and good melee damage.  To me that is a fair trade off.  As I have stated, I think these changes are cool, mostly because it gives rangers a choice.  But I understand your feelings about losing 3% DPS by doing what you already do.  In an ideal world, summoned arrows would do what they do now, and the new, better arrows would do 3% more DPS.  But then, I imagine we'd be right where we are now, with people unhappy that they have to pay to do extra.  </div>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Badaxe Bart wrote:<div></div> <p>rothgar wrote</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>No, why should I, to the first question.  They haven't been available and I'm not a woodworker.  And Everyone has taken the stance that we are required to buy arrows, including any specialty arrows!</p> <p>As to the logic of free summoned arrows, that is a fallacy, they cost time.  Ergo, not free.  Ergo, not needing a reduction in damage.  And aren't they already of slightly lesser quality anyway?  Not to mention the uber indium arrow summoned by arrow rip.</p><hr></blockquote>In Rothgar's defense, there must be some people who knew about this.   When I was still making crafted arrows under the current system, rounded arrows would outsell the other types by 3 to 1.  </div>

[Prrasha]

"Our costs, however cheap you make them, are still exponentially higher then anyone else in the entire game.""Forcing us to invest additional time either farming money ( and subsequently using more arrows ) or standing around doing non-adventure related activities while we summon arrows."I think you'll find you're not the <i>only</i> class with such issues. Go ask a raiding warlock how much fun farming nil crystals is... and they have no choice but to sink the time killing hordes of greys for crystals; they can't make money on an alt to buy them, can't tradeskill them, can't get them any other way but to kill debuffed mobs. (disclaimer: I'm not a raiding <i>anything</i>, just pointing out that hyperbole on your part may not be the best way to approach an argument, especially when you have actual dev interaction.)Further, go ask the Paladin boards what high-end raiding is like at all; at least people want multiple rangers on a raid, even if you do bring vendor-bought arrows... I'm sure some of them would be happy to fork over a little coin to be more than a pity invite... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I do feel for you being the only class with a significant triple-dip into the funds to max yourself out: arrows, potions, and poisons. Three other classes only have to buy two of the three, and the rest only need one. Whether that's "exponential" I guess depends on how many arrows will be used after the no-ammo-on-combat-arts change.

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR>Since my original post is being picked apart due to my statement about auto-attack damage please let me rephrase it.  I never meant to imply that auto-attack wasn't a signficant part of the damage, but that it was not the majority of our damage.  Combat Arts still make up the largest part of a Ranger's DPS.  The whole point of this statement was to say that a slight dps decrease for summoned arrows on auto-attack will not have a huge overall impact.   You will never be required to purchase arrows from a crafter, its just an option that you have that other classes don't get in order to improve your dps.  <BR><BR>Has anyone tried crafted adamantine rounded arrows lately?  If you have, you'll notice that your auto-attack damage increases.  But its interesting that no one is taking the stance that they are required to buy them.  Now that we are making arrows cheaper, and making it so that you will use a lot less of them this seems to me like a move in the right direction.   It also seems logical to me that something we summon for free should be slightly of lesser quality then an item you pay for.<BR><BR>I'm glad to hear that for most people this is a welcomed change.  As I said before, GU32 is still a month away and there's much tweaking to be done.  I appreciate the fact that everyone is so passionate about playing a Ranger and wants to make them the best they can be.  <BR><BR>We are still discussing ammo quality, weapon quality and how they should interact with damage done by auto-attack and combat arts.  The book is by no means closed on this subject, so please be patient and continue to provide constructive feedback.  We are listening.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Please take off your rose-colored glasses and stop trying to paint a big smiley face across this nerf.  Because this is exactly what it is:  A Nerf.</P> <P>Ranger's, as a Community, have analyzed every aspect of their dps down to the last percent and can tell you exactly what is and what isn't wrong with the combat mechanics as relates to the ranger.  We know exactly where each point of damage comes from and where we gain the most benifit.  Trying to tell us that Auto Attack is not a significant portion of our DPS is just plain crap and any ranger worth his salt can sniff it out a mile away.  Now you are back-pedaling saying it's not the "majority of our damage", and CAs provide the bulk of our DPS?  </P> <P>Well...40% from auto, 10% from poisons, 5% from our offensive stance proc (Quick Shot), maybe another 2-3% from other procs  = ~57%.</P> <P>Hmm, sure sounds like CAs are the majority....</P> <P>Not meaning to flame you, but if you want to know about ranger mechanics, ask someone that's leveled, played and raided one.  Don't just create a toon, beta buff him, open up a parser and spout nonsence.</P> <P>As a great man once said "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's [I cannot control my vocabulary], but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it."</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wow, you know what? First Dev in forever to take an interest in Rangers. Lets just tie him to a stake and get out the logs! WOOOOOOOO! Burn him! Burn him! He said AA wasn't important to our DPS! Burn him!</P> <P>Seriously, chill out.</P>

[blackdog1]

Rothgar1.Why are they lowering the summoned arrows at all?I just don't get it.Everyone knows we are under powered.Buying large amount of arrows is just not a option for alot of Rangers.We can't afford it.By lowering the summoned arrows damage all you are doing is gimping us rangers who can't afford to buy arrows even more.Your basicaly saying rangers like me will now be doing 6% less damage.I'm already lagging behind other classes that have utilities.I have nothing but dps that I bring to a raid.Now I will do 6% less of that.How is that helping me? <div></div>

[Taubin]

<div><blockquote><hr>blackdog1 wrote:Rothgar1.Why are they lowering the summoned arrows at all?I just don't get it.Everyone knows we are under powered.Buying large amount of arrows is just not a option for alot of Rangers.We can't afford it.By lowering the summoned arrows damage all you are doing is gimping us rangers who can't afford to buy arrows even more.Your basicaly saying rangers like me will now be doing 6% less damage.I'm already lagging behind other classes that have utilities.I have nothing but dps that I bring to a raid.Now I will do 6% less of that.How is that helping me? <div></div><hr></blockquote>QFE!!!For now, until I see how this pans out, Taubin is being hung up.  If this doesn't pan out, well, it's been fun gang.  I will be seeing you all around <span>:smileywink:</span></div>

[dubbs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Wow, you know what? First Dev in forever to take an interest in Rangers. Lets just tie him to a stake and get out the logs! WOOOOOOOO! Burn him! Burn him! He said AA wasn't important to our DPS! Burn him!</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Seriously, chill out.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are right, first dev in forever to take an interest in rangers...and his first thought is to nerf them.   Yeah, maybe I should chill out...or maybe you should open your mind a bit and quit soiling yourself that a dev posted in our forums. 

[BigChiefJJ]

<P>Rothgar1,</P> <P>While the reduction in arrow consumption from CA is greatly appreciated, one thing that has not been brough up much is that once we hit level 71 nobody that wants to do decent damage will be using summoning arrows until they get the new summoning spell at level 76.  So every ranger that wants to use tier appropriate arrows and we all know that this makes a HUGE difference in damage, is going to have to buy arrows.  Well we will get an upgrade to the rip line at 72 so I can shot one summoned tier appropriate arrow ever 45 seconds.</P> <P>The options i see for this is to either rush though the content of the expansion that raises the level cap until i can summon T8 arrows at lvl 76, buy T8 arrows from a woodworker, use my T7 summoded arrows (that do 6% less damage on T7 oppnents, how much less is that on T8 opponents?) or have the Dev team come up with a solution to the summoned tier appropriate arrows.  If there is going to be a reduction in damage from from summoned arrows, most rangers will only use them in a bind - so lets re-adjust the level that you get your summoning spell, our curent 62 lvl spell summons T7 arrows, add one at 70 for T8 arrows and another at 80 for T9 arrows.  Give the lvl 70 rangers that dont want to rush though T8 a viable option to not buying arrows.</P>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Wow, you know what? First Dev in forever to take an interest in Rangers. Lets just tie him to a stake and get out the logs! WOOOOOOOO! Burn him! Burn him! He said AA wasn't important to our DPS! Burn him!</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Seriously, chill out.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are right, first dev in forever to take an interest in rangers...and his first thought is to nerf them.   Yeah, maybe I should chill out...or maybe you should open your mind a bit and quit soiling yourself that a dev posted in our forums. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, you're right. It's all nerf nerf nerf here. While I agree with some of your points in theory, my point is that your comments are *way* out of line. You want to get Devs to listen, you don't flame them. You try to politely suggest that there may be things they're missing. If you believe that flaming them is a better way to get them to listen, well you're sadly mistaken.<BR>

[dubbs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR><BR>Yeah, you're right. It's all nerf nerf nerf here. While I agree with some of your points in theory, my point is that your comments are *way* out of line. You want to get Devs to listen, you don't flame them. You try to politely suggest that there may be things they're missing. If you believe that flaming them is a better way to get them to listen, well you're sadly mistaken.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Perhaps my comments may be percieved as cruel and inflamatory, that was not my intention.    I yam what I yam.  I don't sugar-coat anything and say exactly what I mean.  Someone saying something as fact, that can easily disproved, mind you, just grates me the wrong way.</P> <P>It is good that issues are being looked at, but I'd rather they be left alone, than some half-cocked gloss over that doesn't fix the problem just shifts the focus elsewhere.</P> <P> </P>

[Rothgar]

<i>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."</i>First off, this is the risk I take by discussing something a month before its due to go live.  Things change.  Maybe in the future I'll wait longer before opening my mouth.  Maybe things will change again before the update.  But as it stands now, summoned arrows will not see a damage decrease.<div></div>Vendor purchased arrows will do less damage than summoned. Crafted arrows will have different bonuses to range, accuracy and damage depending on the type.  Stack size for ammo will default to 100 instead of 99.I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>Starness wrote</P> <P>Nothing constructive at all, please disregard his posts.</P>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>blackdog1 wrote:Rothgar1.Why are they lowering the summoned arrows at all?I just don't get it.Everyone knows we are under powered.Buying large amount of arrows is just not a option for alot of Rangers.We can't afford it.By lowering the summoned arrows damage all you are doing is gimping us rangers who can't afford to buy arrows even more.Your basicaly saying rangers like me will now be doing 6% less damage.I'm already lagging behind other classes that have utilities.I have nothing but dps that I bring to a raid.Now I will do 6% less of that.How is that helping me? <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'll say it again, it's not 6%...Anyway, the only way I see this working is it summoned arrows are left alone damage wise, feel free to increase damage of crafted arrows, at least then we can all look on it as a bonus, maybe.</div>

[dubbs]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR><I>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."<BR><BR></I>First off, this is the risk I take by discussing something a month before its due to go live.  Things change.  Maybe in the future I'll wait longer before opening my mouth.  Maybe things will change again before the update.  But as it stands now, summoned arrows will not see a damage decrease.<BR> <BR>Vendor purchased arrows will do less damage than summoned. Crafted arrows will have different bonuses to range, accuracy and damage depending on the type.  Stack size for ammo will default to 100 instead of 99.<BR><BR>I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/cheer</P> <P>Excellent Post</P>

[Nulad]

Throws a bucket of cool water over Rothgar1 and passes him a beer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>Rothgar1 wrote</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><EM>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."<BR><BR></EM>First off, this is the risk I take by discussing something a month before its due to go live.  Things change.  Maybe in the future I'll wait longer before opening my mouth.  Maybe things will change again before the update.  But as it stands now, summoned arrows will not see a damage decrease.<BR></P> <P><BR>Vendor purchased arrows will do less damage than summoned. Crafted arrows will have different bonuses to range, accuracy and damage depending on the type.  Stack size for ammo will default to 100 instead of 99.<BR><BR>I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.<BR></P> <HR> <P>sprays Rothgar1 with [Ointment of Burn Control]</P> <P>Hi, welcome to the ranger revive point!  I haven't seen you here before, are you new?  I see you've been getting the pointed end of the stick, Har Har Har!</P>

[Anxi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR><I>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."<BR><BR></I>First off, this is the risk I take by discussing something a month before its due to go live.  Things change.  Maybe in the future I'll wait longer before opening my mouth.  Maybe things will change again before the update.  But as it stands now, summoned arrows will not see a damage decrease.<BR> <BR>Vendor purchased arrows will do less damage than summoned. Crafted arrows will have different bonuses to range, accuracy and damage depending on the type.  Stack size for ammo will default to 100 instead of 99.<BR><BR>I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your orginal post stated:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Summoned arrows will provide the lowest damage, with vendor bought arrows being slightly better.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And this one says summoned arrows won't see a decrease in damage. Vendor arrows will deal slightly less and player made will deal more. So our progression for arrow quality is now:</P> <P>Vendor > Summoned > Player Made > Fabled Bow Summoned</P> <P>I think this will make people more happy. Our summoned arrows are still useful but player made ones will be better. That doesn't bother me. I'll be able to make ample arrows for myself and throw some on the broker.</P> <P>I certainly hope that you and all the devs continue bring changes like this up to the community well before they go live or even into testing. It doesn't hurt to hear multiple thoughts on an issue. </P> <P>Not to be rude but your statements brought the critcisim of the ranger community on yourself. We're not to be trifled with. :smileywink:</P>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR><BR>I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're a red name Rothgar, flames seem to come with the territory. *hands some aloe and vitamin E and some banadges* So summoned arrows won't reduce... unless that changes in a month. I think that would be most people beef then (it would be mine), a reduction from where we are now. If we're missing out on DPS w/o crafted but our DPS is the same pre and post 32 with summoned then... woot!</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> <P>Perhaps my comments may be percieved as cruel and inflamatory, that was not my intention.    I yam what I yam.  I don't sugar-coat anything and say exactly what I mean.  Someone saying something as fact, that can easily disproved, mind you, just grates me the wrong way.</P> <P>It is good that issues are being looked at, but I'd rather they be left alone, than some half-cocked gloss over that doesn't fix the problem just shifts the focus elsewhere.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're comment that Rothgar just beta buffed a Ranger, glanced at some parses, then made the change was harsh. First, I find it unlikely that such a drastic set of changes was made by one Dev alone. I'm sure there was a group effort and discussion. Second, even if it was one person I don't think any of the Devs over there would take something so drastic so lightly. You yar what you yar, but it doesn't take sugar coating to be polite. Either way, you may want it left alone, a lot of people seem to not want it left alone... they may also want more also, but they want it not left alone.</P>

[BigChiefJJ]

<P><EM>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."</EM><BR></P> <P>Its nice to see a sence of humor here and remind is that this is a game that we are suppose to have fun with.  There are problems with all the classes and we all know that things change from conception to implementation, they change from test to live in some cases. We do appreciate the announcement of what is to come, arrow consumption has been a long over due item and its something that every ranger is passionate about.  Hopefully the comments here, since we have lived with this and all have our own thoughts of how to fix it, will provide you some idea of the way forward.  Again the announcement is appreciated and hopefully will let all of us that dont have the time to play high level characters on test help you out in the implementation of this new mechanic.  </P> <P>/hands Roghgar some Aloe Vera</P>

[lilmohi]

<P>First of all Rothgar, I want to thank you for taking the time to work on this problem and keeping us posted on what is going on.  :smileytongue:</P> <P>Okay, basically nobody wants to be nerfed (no matter how minor), especially when it is supposed to be part of a fix to an even bigger problem.  Personally i think that gathered arrows should be at least as good as npc bought, yes gathered are free arrows, but as others have pointed out no other class has to pay for auto-attack.  Nobody buys npc armor or weapons since they are the absolute worst gear possible, i don't know why ammo should be any different.  Furthermore gathered arrows aren't exactly free, we have to pay time to gather them (about 6hrs to fill a quiver), money to upgrade the skill (t7 m1 goes for well over 15pp on my server) and experience by way of an achievement ability that does nothing but enhance gathering speed.  Now if you made the gather arrow skill create arrows that scaled up in quality with quality level of the skill then i think it would be much more fair.  For example app1-3 would gather arrows that had reduced damage to store bought, app4 would equal store bought, adept 1 equal or slightly less than the basic player made, and master 1 equal to the improved player made.  Or you could have the aa ability that enhances the gather skill, summon higher quality arrows the more points put into it as right now the achievement is completely worthless.</P> <P> </P>

[Ballads]

<div></div>edit -i cant read-<div></div><p>Message Edited by pickle27 on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:<i>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."</i>First off, this is the risk I take by discussing something a month before its due to go live.  Things change.  Maybe in the future I'll wait longer before opening my mouth.  Maybe things will change again before the update.  But as it stands now, summoned arrows will not see a damage decrease.<div></div>Vendor purchased arrows will do less damage than summoned. Crafted arrows will have different bonuses to range, accuracy and damage depending on the type.  Stack size for ammo will default to 100 instead of 99.I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.<hr></blockquote>You think that's bad ? You were in melee range and facing us at the time. Imagine the damage we could have done to you had you been a distance away and with your back turned <span>:smileyhappy:Now if what you've posted above goes into live, then I have no problem at all and will be a very happy.As a Ranger it ticks all my "must have" boxes:1. No nerf from current situation if I use summoned arrows.2. Ammo consumption is drastically reduced.It also ticks the "nice to have" boxes:1. Paying for ammo gives me a slight DPS increase if I really want to try to be the uberest Ranger at the raid (ew, did I just really use the word "uberest" ?)2. Gathered ammo is better than vendor purchased ammo, which means that 20PP master I bought will actually be worth it in the long run.As a Woodworker it ticks all my "must have" boxes:1. Arrow creation time is reduced to something approaching a workable time (will need to test to confirm, but initial thoughts are it's OK)2. There are real bonuses for Rangers and non-Rangers to using crafted arrows, so demand should pick up and finally I get a market that I can sell to.It also ticks the "nice to have" boxes:</span><span>1. As arrow quanity per combine is increased, so my costs per arrow should go down, making them more attractive (assumes no changed to fuel are stealthed in) </span>2. Stack size of 100 makes things much easier to calculate etc.<span>So, as it stands, I'd provisionally give this a 9.5 out of 10 on my "yay" meter.</span></div><p>Edit: Bah, why can't I speel stuff correctly the first time ?</p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:35 PM</span>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dubbs wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Wow, you know what? First Dev in forever to take an interest in Rangers. Lets just tie him to a stake and get out the logs! WOOOOOOOO! Burn him! Burn him! He said AA wasn't important to our DPS! Burn him!</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Seriously, chill out.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are right, first dev in forever to take an interest in rangers...and his first thought is to nerf them.   Yeah, maybe I should chill out...or maybe you should open your mind a bit and quit soiling yourself that a dev posted in our forums. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'd like to see a break down how many times devs addressed issues per class. I think rangers would be rather high.

[Lev]

I need some clearification.First off, I understand that everyone wants to have their arrow cost go even more down, to about what assasins have or something.But if you do not agree with my reasoning when it comes to this not being a nerf? then please tell me, instead of just keep complaining.No matter how much you think your saving money on standing around summoning all you actually are doing is loose out on money, so this wouldn't even be a nerf with our current arrow consumption. For a woodworker to make player crafted arrows cost more than vendor arrows now he would have to multiply his loss by 5. I am not entirely sure as this differs from server to server, but I haven't seen a single consumable that with market competition manages to sell at a price 5 times it worth? And considering the arrow consumption gets a considerable downgrade(upgrade) this is nothing but positive.Let me say again, buying a quiver worth of arrows (even now, is more profitable then to stand around summoning), this is why both aspects of this upgrade (nerf as many of you call it) is nothing but giving and not nerfing in any way. If you still think this means we have to pay more for arrows than we used to, you are simply having a problem with your perception.fuel cost for 1 quiver is about 30g, even doubleing that is far better than standing around for 3-10 hours summoning just to fill your quiver.How much money can you make with 1 quiver of arrows, we have ca calculated 1 quiver to be worth 2 hours of complete adventuring. considering CAs will no longer require arrows this will go up by alot.And how much can you make within 2 hours of pure adventuring? Hell trash from SoS should even make you 2plats on that.So lets compare, 2plats - arrow costs 30g 1p 70g x2++ =  3p 40g ++    vs.     5 hours (3 hours summoning(considering you have master and aps to match) + 2 hours adventuring) 2platsSo buying arrows will net you a profit of around 4plat where summoning and aventuring for the same ammount of time will grant you 2plats.This calculation was mainly based on ca. numbers so don't take it to heart, but the ratio is very unlikely to go beneath that. And I did not even count that CAs no longer will use arrows.I don't get it. Yes we still have a bigger cost for doing our job than most classes, but everything about the changes is positive so stop flaming them and crying nerf!.. if anything this is a huge step in the right direction counting alot of different sides of the gameplay.<div></div>

[Oakum]

<DIV>Want I want to know is, if arrows were consumed before during CA's. Did it affect their damage and if so, will the dps from ca's be based on rounded, summoned, arrow quality ect.  I got a baby ranger so I am curious if this will raise or lower overall dps of a ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Hisvet]

<P>First of all thank you Rothgar for the posts you've made today and how you survived such a sensitive issue with us.</P> <P>I'm quiescent with the change and I thank you for keeping summoned arrows on par.  I'm a raiding ranger without a DT bow, raids cost me a lot of money in food, potions, poisons, totems, repairs and arrows.  I certainly don't stand around doing nothing but summoning arrows but I always summon arrows as I wait for pulls or at a mailbox, raid, adventure, craft etc and find its not enough.  I do about 70% summoned 30% bought with those numbers changing for how many raids per week I do.  I have found myself using 100% vendor from time to time.</P> <P>I don't make a ton of money and I'm not a woodworker.  I do have summon arrows at M1.  I don't see why we have to pay for consumeables to use our primary attack ability.  We cannot do good dps meleeing (sorry to burst any mage bubbles there but we're not that much better than you with a wand or staff whacking something in melee, we're not assassins.)  Nobody else who can use a bow assassins, troubs, guardians nor any ranged item uses it as their Primary attack ability as per game design.  Nobody consumes ammo like we do.  </P> <P>It makes sense to pay for enhancements, adornments are enhancements, poisons etc to a guardian ammo for a bow IS an enhancement not a requirement to do his job well, etc.  I am happy to pay for enhanced arrows, I do not wish to be required to pay for my BASE ammo that allows me to do my job well.</P> <P>There have been no arrows to buy from player crafted for many many months on our server.  Woodworkers aren't that popular of a crafter, most people who make one make it for their guilds or their own consumption or make their money off totems and the like.  I doubt this change will create a huge new arrow market.  For those who don't need them most will use vendor or a guildee to get them.  For those who do need them we cannot rely on a market that might not be there, sustainable and too expensive.  But it does give the option and does enhance things.</P> <P>I thank you for the CA change in consumption and hope it takes my arrow use down to the point where my summon arrows ability can sustain my basic ammo consumption in raids.  Then I might actually be able to afford some rounded arrows as an enhancement.</P> <P> </P> <P>((Oakum, CA's were never affected by arrow quality it just consumed the ammo.  You could use a tin arrow for a lvl 70 CA and do the same damage with it as adamantium, CAs damage is only dependant on your buffs, crits and normal CA dmg so no you will not see any dps change for the CA thing.  Its benefit is to lessen arrow consumption only as it was impossible to raid and trade out arrows for CAs and not drop your dps during autoattacks (which forced us to use our best ammo with CAs))</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Hisvet on <SPAN class=date_text>02-01-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:04 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Hisvet on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:10 PM</span>

[Sosum]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:<i>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."</i>First off, this is the risk I take by discussing something a month before its due to go live.  Things change.  Maybe in the future I'll wait longer before opening my mouth.  Maybe things will change again before the update.  But as it stands now, summoned arrows will not see a damage decrease.<div></div>Vendor purchased arrows will do less damage than summoned. Crafted arrows will have different bonuses to range, accuracy and damage depending on the type.  Stack size for ammo will default to 100 instead of 99.I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.<hr></blockquote>ohhh... a fresh corpse!!! </div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>@RabbitflyAs the last dev post cleared things up with regard to the summoned arrow damage, I'd no longer term this a "nerf".The basic problem in the past with arrow supply in the game is that no Woodworker in their right mind will craft them.You have calculated the fuel costs as 30G, but don't forget the cost of the other raws.Assuming you make 25 arrows each time, and you need 88 combines to fill a 22 slot quiver, then you will also need the following raws:Adamantine x 88 - 2s each which is 1.75G totalRosewood x 88 - 7s each, which is 6G totalHanging Root x 88 - 10c each, which is 10s total(amount may be different on your server)Rounding off, call it 8G in raw costs. Sure you can harvest the raws yourself but then you have to factor in the time spent, and also the loss of cash as you'd be able to sell them yourself.So, the cost for a quiver of arrows is 38G, let's call it 40G to be really generous.Now we come to the serious cost....the time taken to make.As a Woodworker, it's going to take me at least 1 minute per combine if I'm some sort of super crafting god who has the RNG on his side. That's 1.5 hours I spend making the arrows. And how much profit do I get ? If I sell them for 40G then it's none by the sounds of it.That's the reason why there is no market for player made arrows at the moment, the demand is there, but the supply isn't.So we're left with either summoned arrows, or vendor bought arrows. Both of these have horrendous monetary costs to the Ranger (as oppsed to the Woodworker). The fact that the devs intially were going to nerf the summoned arrows meant that we were faced with having to switch to vendor arrows to keep our DPS. If we're going to switch to vendor ammo then, you also need to factor in the Ranger's costs for that hour of adventuring earning the money to buy the arrows i.e. how many arrows do I use adventuring to earn cash to buy arrows to go adventuring ? Anyway, as things stand I think the devs have now got this fix nailed so that everyone (Woodworker and Rangers) are happy.Reducing our arrow consumption is the key, and this means that Rangers can summon enough arrows and still do exactly the same DPS as before. Instantly you have a massive money sink removed for Rangers. Sure, there is going to be an intitial period where a Ranger has to build up his stocks on summoned arrows, but I bet most Rangers have a few put by. Now that consumption is lowered, a few days after the change goes live they will have got their stocks up enough to not worry about it any more.The second aspect of the change is to make it less time consuming for Woodworkers to make arrows. This looks like this is being done by increasing the number in a combine by a factor of 4. This would mean it now takes me 30 mins to supply myself for a raid, rather than 1.5 hours.However, the real beauty of both of these changes when taken together is because my ammo consumption has been reduce from 2000 to 500 or so, and it now takes me 1/4 of the time to make those 500 arrows, it's actually only 5 combines which is about 7.5 minutes tops. If it takes me about 10 mins to restock myself for a raid, then I'm not going to use summoned arrows any more and will go for player made every time. So, I get a DPS increase.In fact, as arrow crafting is so much less painful, I'll make a load of spare ones and stick them on broker for other Rangers and non Rangers to buy. Hey, that sounds like the devs fixed it to me !<p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class="date_text">02-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">02:20 PM - Made it make more sense. Fingers are faster than brain I'm afraid.</span></p><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 PM</span>

[Lev]

<div></div><div></div>Removed due to faulty statement based on hasty reading@Magrooyes it did clearify this (however it was allready clearified had everyone cared to follow a link posted by another poster)<div></div><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class="date_text">02-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">02:15 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakum wrote:<BR> <DIV>Want I want to know is, if arrows were consumed before during CA's. Did it affect their damage and if so, will the dps from ca's be based on rounded, summoned, arrow quality ect.  I got a baby ranger so I am curious if this will raise or lower overall dps of a ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>CA damage was never based off of arrows.

[lilmohi]

<P>Thanks Rothgar!</P> <P> </P> <P>/sac corpse</P> <P>:smileyvery-happy:</P>

[valkyrja]

<div></div><font color="#ffffff"><a href="../view_profile?user.id=275337" target="top"><span>EQ2Magroo</span></a></font><font color="#ffffff">,</font>And most importantly, I'll be making arrows to sell that people will actually want to buy. I'd still like to see some ranger feedback on what kind of pricing would be consider fair however.<div></div>

[Lev]

I did mention earlier that I thought anything above 2x of your cost would be a bit high..in pure fuel costs it's around 1g 40s per craft, which then is 1s 40c per arrow.So to be fair to both rangers and woodworkers I guess I would like to see a price around 2.5s per arrow. Which is then 2.5g per craft.Now this might sound low to begin with, but I figure alot of rangers want to go crafted arrows with the changes, and therefore you will see people filling quivers when they buy. Netting in about 55g per quiver.Any higher and I would have trouble buying it, the only problem is that this is only slightly over 1g profit per craft, and thats not even counting raws. So thats why I asked earlier if 1g profit per craft sounded reasonable to you? cause if it doesn't then I still tink they should up the recipes a bit more than just 1 stack.<div></div>

[Thoral]

<div><blockquote><hr>sparql wrote:<div></div><font color="#ffffff"><a href="../view_profile?user.id=275337" target="top"><span>EQ2Magroo</span></a></font><font color="#ffffff">,</font>And most importantly, I'll be making arrows to sell that people will actually want to buy. I'd still like to see some ranger feedback on what kind of pricing would be consider fair however.<div></div><hr></blockquote>If a woodworker can make 1000 arrows in 20 minutes, and the consumption of arrows has been cut by 2/3rds, theres about to be (after GU 32) a million arrows on the broker priced just above the cost to make them.  Woodworkers will then stop making so many of them since the profit is not there.  Hopefully there will be some equilibrium reached so that woodworkers can still make money and rangers can still get cheap high-DPS arrows.I think it would be great if woodworkers could use rare wood to make stacks of 100 crit arrows or something that would increase autoattack DPS by 1.5 times or even 2 times.</div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div>Costs would be as follows:1 x Adamantine Cluster- 2s each - 2s total1 x Rough Lumbered Rosewood - 7s each - 7s total1 x Hanging Root - 10c each - 10s total4 x Acrylia Sandpaper - 34s, 56c each - 1G 38s totalYour costs may vary on your server, but this gives a total cost of say 1.6G per combine (minimum is going to be 1.4G even if the other raws are free).So, assuming I get a pristine combine, and make 100 arrows, then it's 1.4G per 100.If our arrow consumption is reduced, and we're talking auto-attack only, then this is 7 arrows per minute I believe ? Factor in double shot and let's call it 10 arrows per minute.This gives us 1 stack lasting 10 minutes. So, for 1 hour of constant non-stop auto-attack firing, we would use 6 stacks of arrows.If I sell my arrows for 5G a stack (huge margin, but hey let's pretend I'm an alchemist here <span>:smileyhappy:</span> ), then this is a cost to the Ranger of 30G for 1 hour non stop raiding (no downtime, no talking, just one mob straight after another). In reality you'll have downtime to wait for power, find the next mob etc. Let's call it 50%. So, a 2 hour raid is 30G arrow costs. If I'm making them for myself, then it's 9G. I guess the reality will be priced somewhere in between.I don't think that anyone should be worried about price gouging on arrows, but Woodworkers won't be making much money on them I guess.(unless my calculations are wildly wrong, please check !!)EDIT: Yes they were, got everything multiplied by a factor of 10 for some reason.<div></div><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 PM</span>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR><I>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."<BR><BR></I>First off, this is the risk I take by discussing something a month before its due to go live.  Things change.  Maybe in the future I'll wait longer before opening my mouth.  Maybe things will change again before the update.  But as it stands now, summoned arrows will not see a damage decrease.<BR> <BR>Vendor purchased arrows will do less damage than summoned. Crafted arrows will have different bonuses to range, accuracy and damage depending on the type.  Stack size for ammo will default to 100 instead of 99.<BR><BR>I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Rothgar,  I realize this probably got lost in the flames, but way back on page one I asked your opinion on a couple of items.  I don't know if you didn't want to answer me or if you just got wrapped up with the flames.  I stated...</P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff99>Rothgar, thanks for the update.  This all looks pretty good on the surface, I sure hope it works out as planned.   I'm still using my Grizz and my parses show my autoattack damage at around 30-36% of my total DPS.  With a 6% decrease in auto attack using summon, if my math is correct, that'll be a bout a 2% decrease in total DPS with my current set up.  Obviously those with higher DR bows will see a greater decrease.  Is this in the ball park of how you envision the change?  If so, I can live with this.  We can use our summoned arrows for grouping and such and buy the crafted arrows for raiding.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff99>Which brings me to this...  Buying crafted arrows seems like it'll be a must for the raiders who don't have the bows that summon the T8 ammo.  This is good news, unless the cost is prohibitive.  Do you think your new crafting ratios are going to help lower the market prices, or do you think we'll still be paying 6-7 gold per stack?  I'm only asking because if the arrows are still going to cost us as much as they do now, or more, we are going to still be in the same boat.  Well, only those of us who don't have the time to level up a T7 woodworker.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff99>Edit:  I mis-spoke.  We won't be in the same boat exactly since the CAs won't burn ammo.  But I hope catch my drift.</FONT></EM></P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff99>Message Edited by Gareorn on <SPAN class=date_text>01-31-2007</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:38 PM</SPAN></FONT></EM></P> <P><BR>My first question was eventually answered, I think.  But I'm more interested in your opinion on the market prices.  Have you guys on the dev team done any analysis on market prices, and if so, what do you expect the market prices to be once the initial surge has passed?</P>

[kartikeya]

<P>Rothgar, so long as summoned arrows aren't getting nerfed in any way, shape or form, my original post on this matter remains the same:</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=7>SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!</FONT></P>

[Lev]

@Magroo<div></div>Your cost calculations sound fine by me, of course as you mentioned it's differnet on almost every server.However your assumption of Arrow consumption is a bit out.Yes our arrow consumption will be lesser by alot, but not that much. Pure auto attack (with no delay, as your cas delay your aas from time to time numbers will not be correct also not taking in the matter of downtime)a medium equiped ranger should have a haste of about 50-70, with most longbows thats around 4-5sec delay.pure auto attack will still give us an arrow consumption at about 900 an hour with 4 sec delay.of course this will not be the actual consumption as it would not be much better than it allready is, as there is always a certain ammount of downtime and a certain ammount of delay. These numbers are just pure to give you an idea.<div></div><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:45 PM</span>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:I did mention earlier that I thought anything above 2x of your cost would be a bit high..in pure fuel costs it's around 1g 40s per craft, which then is 1s 40c per arrow.So to be fair to both rangers and woodworkers I guess I would like to see a price around 2.5s per arrow. Which is then 2.5g per craft.Now this might sound low to begin with, but I figure alot of rangers want to go crafted arrows with the changes, and therefore you will see people filling quivers when they buy. Netting in about 55g per quiver.Any higher and I would have trouble buying it, the only problem is that this is only slightly over 1g profit per craft, and thats not even counting raws. So thats why I asked earlier if 1g profit per craft sounded reasonable to you? cause if it doesn't then I still tink they should up the recipes a bit more than just 1 stack.<div></div><hr></blockquote>To be honest, I don't know if 1gp profit is worth it to me, which is why I originally asked what you would expect to pay on the broker and on mail orders.  I'm one of those crafters who mostly works by order, and I typically only ask for donations.  Everything I sell on the broker is typically 2-3 times what it would cost me to make ie: if I were to buy the components what would I pay for them plus fuel costs.  So if I were to list arrows at 3sp each on the broker, assuming no other competition, is that a reasonable asking price?  Ideally, I'd prefer players order from me directly and pay me what they feel is fair.  I also like this arangement because often times customers will send me a stack or 2 of various raws, saving me harvesting time.</div>

[Thoral]

<div><blockquote><hr>sparql wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:I did mention earlier that I thought anything above 2x of your cost would be a bit high..in pure fuel costs it's around 1g 40s per craft, which then is 1s 40c per arrow.So to be fair to both rangers and woodworkers I guess I would like to see a price around 2.5s per arrow. Which is then 2.5g per craft.Now this might sound low to begin with, but I figure alot of rangers want to go crafted arrows with the changes, and therefore you will see people filling quivers when they buy. Netting in about 55g per quiver.Any higher and I would have trouble buying it, the only problem is that this is only slightly over 1g profit per craft, and thats not even counting raws. So thats why I asked earlier if 1g profit per craft sounded reasonable to you? cause if it doesn't then I still tink they should up the recipes a bit more than just 1 stack.<div></div><hr></blockquote>To be honest, I don't know if 1gp profit is worth it to me, which is why I originally asked what you would expect to pay on the broker and on mail orders.  I'm one of those crafters who mostly works by order, and I typically only ask for donations.  Everything I sell on the broker is typically 2-3 times what it would cost me to make ie: if I were to buy the components what would I pay for them plus fuel costs.  So if I were to list arrows at 3sp each on the broker, assuming no other competition, is that a reasonable asking price?  Ideally, I'd prefer players order from me directly and pay me what they feel is fair.  I also like this arangement because often times customers will send me a stack or 2 of various raws, saving me harvesting time.</div><hr></blockquote>I think the market will drive your asking price, and I think the market will be flooded with arrows.  I think that whatever the cheapest woodworkers will accept for a profit is what you will have to sell them for because woodworkers will be able to make so many arrows in such short times relative to the new consumption rate.</div>

[Lev]

well 3s is still a rather nice improvement from the 6s vendor arrows.the only problem is that it adds up very quickly for rangers.. at 3s per arrow a quiver is 66g, which is still possible to and better than summoning in most cases, but it's also still rather expensive.I guess it will show better once we can really see how much the CA change affects our actual arrow consumption.<div></div>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>ekopocka wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>sparql wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:I did mention earlier that I thought anything above 2x of your cost would be a bit high..in pure fuel costs it's around 1g 40s per craft, which then is 1s 40c per arrow.So to be fair to both rangers and woodworkers I guess I would like to see a price around 2.5s per arrow. Which is then 2.5g per craft.Now this might sound low to begin with, but I figure alot of rangers want to go crafted arrows with the changes, and therefore you will see people filling quivers when they buy. Netting in about 55g per quiver.Any higher and I would have trouble buying it, the only problem is that this is only slightly over 1g profit per craft, and thats not even counting raws. So thats why I asked earlier if 1g profit per craft sounded reasonable to you? cause if it doesn't then I still tink they should up the recipes a bit more than just 1 stack.<div></div><hr></blockquote>To be honest, I don't know if 1gp profit is worth it to me, which is why I originally asked what you would expect to pay on the broker and on mail orders.  I'm one of those crafters who mostly works by order, and I typically only ask for donations.  Everything I sell on the broker is typically 2-3 times what it would cost me to make ie: if I were to buy the components what would I pay for them plus fuel costs.  So if I were to list arrows at 3sp each on the broker, assuming no other competition, is that a reasonable asking price?  Ideally, I'd prefer players order from me directly and pay me what they feel is fair.  I also like this arangement because often times customers will send me a stack or 2 of various raws, saving me harvesting time.</div><hr></blockquote>I think the market will drive your asking price, and I think the market will be flooded with arrows.  I think that whatever the cheapest woodworkers will accept for a profit is what you will have to sell them for because woodworkers will be able to make so many arrows in such short times relative to the new consumption rate.</div><hr></blockquote>There is no doubt the market will drive the price, but the fact is, at least on my server there aren't too many woodworkers and when many crafters hit 70, they stop crafting unless asked.  I was 69 for months, since I had my last set of recipies.  I finally dinged 70 last week while making totems and that put me at the 68th lvl70 woodworker on my server.  </div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sparql wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Actually no, the reason we don't have decent auto attack, even from melee range, is that we don't have the weapon selection you do.  Wands or the occasional dagger don't have anywhere near the DR that is afforded to scout classes.  So even if I choose to melee, I can't do DECENT DPS. <BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>A little off topic here, but my interest is peaked.  Actually there are six 2h crushing weapons available to you that have a DR of 90 or better.  There are also 6 longbows in the game with a DR of 90 or better.  And, the RNG is much better for 2h'ers than it is for bows.  It seems you have a better weapon selection than we do.</P> <P>Maybe it's just my Ranger mentality, but I never understood why mages just stand back and cast.  I've seen many stand back and do <STRONG>nothing</STRONG> when they run out of power.  Heck, even if you have a bad weapon, and laying some wood on the mob only increased your DPS by a couple of hundred, why wouldn't you?</P>

[Dragonsword]

<P>Just looking at what Rothgar wrote I can see my raiding costs going down to a quarter of what they are now, that will make me happy, and as a woodworker, I will be selling my arrows at a fair price once the changes come into effect, I dont see any major change on my DPS from what he said. Basically our cost will be the same as any other toon that uses a bow or ranged weapon, thats all I want, and to me it seems a beneficial change.</P> <P>I also think that alot of posters in this forum where very unreasonable about how they received the changes, seemed alot went off on their own little daydream, working their facts and figures and not really listening to what they where being  told. The whole thing seemed resonable clear to me when I read it. Less cost in arrows, and benifits buying better arrows, think thats the way it should be.</P>

[Rothgar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><em><font color="#ffff99">Which brings me to this...  Buying crafted arrows seems like it'll be a must for the raiders who don't have the bows that summon the T8 ammo.  This is good news, unless the cost is prohibitive.  Do you think your new crafting ratios are going to help lower the market prices, or do you think we'll still be paying 6-7 gold per stack?  I'm only asking because if the arrows are still going to cost us as much as they do now, or more, we are going to still be in the same boat.  Well, only those of us who don't have the time to level up a T7 woodworker.</font></em><p>My first question was eventually answered, I think.  But I'm more interested in your opinion on the market prices.  Have you guys on the dev team done any analysis on market prices, and if so, what do you expect the market prices to be once the initial surge has passed?</p><hr></blockquote>You can thank Noel Walling for the recipe changes and ammo balancing.   Chris Kozak made the code changes to remove the ammo requirements from the combat arts, so as you can see, it really is a team effort.  I'm just a guy that has an interest in these changes because I play a Ranger.  I checked with Noel and he said that for now, recipe costs will not be changing, the yield will just increase x4.  So instead of 25 arrows for a pristine result, you'll get 100.  In effect thats a nice cost reduction, but also has the added benefit of saving lots of crafting time.In terms of market price, there's really no way to do an analysis ahead of time.  Every server has different market dynamics and we have to balance for PvP servers as well.   I'm not sure that crafted arrows would see a surge similar to adornments.  With items like adornments, everyone wants them in the beginning, then demand will slack off a little bit as people purchase them.  With arrows, it may be more of a steady flow since they are a consumable.  I would probably compare arrow market activity to something like repair kits or poisons.</div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:@Magroo<div></div>Your cost calculations sound fine by me, of course as you mentioned it's differnet on almost every server.However your assumption of Arrow consumption is a bit out.Yes our arrow consumption will be lesser by alot, but not that much. Pure auto attack (with no delay, as your cas delay your aas from time to time numbers will not be correct also not taking in the matter of downtime)a medium equiped ranger should have a haste of about 50-70, with most longbows thats around 4-5sec delay.pure auto attack will still give us an arrow consumption at about 900 an hour with 4 sec delay.of course this will not be the actual consumption as it would not be much better than it allready is, as there is always a certain ammount of downtime and a certain ammount of delay. These numbers are just pure to give you an idea.<div></div><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class="date_text">02-01-2007</span> <span class="time_text">02:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Haste ! Doh, I knew I'd forgotten something.I'm guessing really on downtime when I said 50%. It would be interesting to see an actual figure for a raid, time spent on raid versus time actually spent in combat/chatting/organising/looting etc. My first thought is that 50% was too high, and that actually we spend very little time actually in combat. I guess each raid is different though.For player made arrows, 900 arrows would be 9 stacks, which works out less than 15G, and believe it or not I don't mind that figure if it means some extra DPS.For summoned arrows I think we will be able to keep up with demand now (60 summoned on Master I per 10 mins = 360 an hour). Even if you're a hardcore raider, with the changes in timers running when you're logged off, you're going to be able to gather 180 arrows before arriving at the raid and starting (20 mins), and gather an additional 720 during a typical 2 hour raid. This means 900 gathered arrows in 2 hours. So, assuming 50% downtime, you'll break even using gathered arrows too.Whilst Rangers should be happy now, I think that Woodworkers that were looking at these changes to make money will be disappointed. Those looking to help out guildies/friends or just Rangers in general though should get a nice warm fuzzy feeling from all the love they'll be getting.</div>

[Emperors]

<DIV>Thank you Rothgar for clarifying.  If what you say now goes live I can live with reduced arrow consumption, my summoned line staying the same in damage, and the option to pay for a little boost if i can afford it.  Well done.</DIV>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> sparql wrote: <div>Actually no, the reason we don't have decent auto attack, even from melee range, is that we don't have the weapon selection you do.  Wands or the occasional dagger don't have anywhere near the DR that is afforded to scout classes.  So even if I choose to melee, I can't do DECENT DPS.  <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>A little off topic here, but my interest is peaked.  Actually there are six 2h crushing weapons available to you that have a DR of 90 or better.  There are also 6 longbows in the game with a DR of 90 or better.  And, the RNG is much better for 2h'ers than it is for bows.  It seems you have a better weapon selection than we do.</p> <p>Maybe it's just my Ranger mentality, but I never understood why mages just stand back and cast.  I've seen many stand back and do <strong>nothing</strong> when they run out of power.  Heck, even if you have a bad weapon, and laying some wood on the mob only increased your DPS by a couple of hundred, why wouldn't you?</p><hr></blockquote>99.9% of Sorcerers cannot have an item in their secondary slot, thanks to the brilliant choices by the devs on our AA tree <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Which is why you never see wizards with staffs.  We are limited to wands or daggers, the best of these (a mage would equip) have a 74ish DR.  Which isn't too bad I guess, but we have little strength.  As a result, our melee can't increase our DPS by a couple hundred like melee classes can.  As for the second part of your question, assuming we have power, there is no reason for us to move in because we are constantly casting and never get a chance to swing for melee.  Plus, moving in on raids is normally bad news for casters, our mitigation is much lower than chain.  Typically if we run out of power we're canabalizing to get more, me getting a melee hit for 100 every few seconds when OOP isn't really going to help the raid out.  That said, I don't really want that to change, I don't enjoy playing melee classes.  </div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:<div>You can thank Noel Walling for the recipe changes and ammo balancing.   Chris Kozak made the code changes to remove the ammo requirements from the combat arts, so as you can see, it really is a team effort.  I'm just a guy that has an interest in these changes because I play a Ranger.  I checked with Noel and he said that for now, recipe costs will not be changing, the yield will just increase x4.  So instead of 25 arrows for a pristine result, you'll get 100.  In effect thats a nice cost reduction, but also has the added benefit of saving lots of crafting time.In terms of market price, there's really no way to do an analysis ahead of time.  Every server has different market dynamics and we have to balance for PvP servers as well.   I'm not sure that crafted arrows would see a surge similar to adornments.  With items like adornments, everyone wants them in the beginning, then demand will slack off a little bit as people purchase them.  With arrows, it may be more of a steady flow since they are a consumable.  I would probably compare arrow market activity to something like repair kits or poisons.</div><hr></blockquote>Where can we send the thank-you pie to ? You all deserve it <span>:smileyhappy:</span>One more question I have about costs...will vendor ammo prices be reduced at all ? By this I mean the vendor made ammo, not the price vendors buy our ammo as I expect that will reduce in line with per arrow cost. If vendor ammo is not only worse than player ammo, but more expensive, then as a Woodworker I should have non-Rangers buying it too for the cost saving rather than the DPS increase.I do have some other non-cost questions too though <span>:smileywink:</span>1. What happens with crushing/slashing damage via our CA attacks ? Will CAs always do a certain type of damage now ? What about mobs that are immune/high resist ?2. Some tradeskill writs require I make 75 arrows. This used to be 3 pristine combines. Will these writs be updated to make it 300 arrows to keep the time taken to make the same ? This will also mean the writ requires 3 inventory slots to complete rather than 1. Don't worry about changing this if you don't want to <span>:smileywink:</span>If I think of any more I'll let you know !</div><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[Dragonsword]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Magroo wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Haste ! Doh, I knew I'd forgotten something.<BR><BR>I'm guessing really on downtime when I said 50%. It would be interesting to see an actual figure for a raid, time spent on raid versus time actually spent in combat/chatting/organising/looting etc. My first thought is that 50% was too high, and that actually we spend very little time actually in combat. I guess each raid is different though.<BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV> <P>__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________</P> <P>If its zones our guild has done and are confortable with, 25% Downtime, new Zones then maybe 50%-75% while we are working on strategies.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote: <DIV><BR>You can thank Noel Walling for the recipe changes and ammo balancing.   Chris Kozak made the code changes to remove the ammo requirements from the combat arts, so as you can see, it really is a team effort.  <FONT color=#ff0000>I'm just a guy that has an interest in these changes because I play a Ranger</FONT>.  I checked with Noel and he said that for now, recipe costs will not be changing, the yield will just increase x4.  So instead of 25 arrows for a pristine result, you'll get 100.  In effect thats a nice cost reduction, but also has the added benefit of saving lots of crafting time.<BR><BR>In terms of market price, there's really no way to do an analysis ahead of time.  Every server has different market dynamics and we have to balance for PvP servers as well.   I'm not sure that crafted arrows would see a surge similar to adornments.  With items like adornments, everyone wants them in the beginning, then demand will slack off a little bit as people purchase them.  With arrows, it may be more of a steady flow since they are a consumable.  I would probably compare arrow market activity to something like repair kits or poisons.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>While Im sure that this change might be good overall for the solo, or even group ranger, its not even close to a good solution for a raiding ranger. Who for the record is all about maximizing their damage output. Saying that we can "buy" a boost if we want to, isnt an option. Its like saying... yeah you have the option to fight with regular caustics, or the GM versions. In the end, whos not using GM poisons in a raid?</P> <P>Im guessing that you dont play a hardcored raiding ranger, or you might better understand the issue here. We already pay for poisons, as do 3 other scout classes, so I can live with that. What no other class in the game has to settle for boils down to this. <FONT color=#3300ff>"If you</FONT><FONT color=#3300ff> want to hit your peak damage potential, you'll have to buy XXX from XXX crafting class."<FONT color=#3300ff></FONT>  </FONT></P> <P>So again, lets ask the questions one more time. Why on earth are rangers being forced to (yes I said forced to) buy crafted arrows from a crafter to maximize their damage when no other class has to pay for their damage on thier primary auto attacks at all?<FONT color=#3300ff><BR></FONT></P>

[Jida]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><em><font color="#ffff99">Which brings me to this...  Buying crafted arrows seems like it'll be a must for the raiders who don't have the bows that summon the T8 ammo.  This is good news, unless the cost is prohibitive.  Do you think your new crafting ratios are going to help lower the market prices, or do you think we'll still be paying 6-7 gold per stack?  I'm only asking because if the arrows are still going to cost us as much as they do now, or more, we are going to still be in the same boat.  Well, only those of us who don't have the time to level up a T7 woodworker.</font></em><p>My first question was eventually answered, I think.  But I'm more interested in your opinion on the market prices.  Have you guys on the dev team done any analysis on market prices, and if so, what do you expect the market prices to be once the initial surge has passed?</p><hr></blockquote>You can thank Noel Walling for the recipe changes and ammo balancing.   Chris Kozak made the code changes to remove the ammo requirements from the combat arts, so as you can see, it really is a team effort.  I'm just a guy that has an interest in these changes because I play a Ranger.  I checked with Noel and he said that for now, recipe costs will not be changing, the yield will just increase x4.  So instead of 25 arrows for a pristine result, you'll get 100.  In effect thats a nice cost reduction, but also has the added benefit of saving lots of crafting time.In terms of market price, there's really no way to do an analysis ahead of time.  Every server has different market dynamics and we have to balance for PvP servers as well.   I'm not sure that crafted arrows would see a surge similar to adornments.  With items like adornments, everyone wants them in the beginning, then demand will slack off a little bit as people purchase them.  With arrows, it may be more of a steady flow since they are a consumable.  I would probably compare arrow market activity to something like repair kits or poisons.</div><hr></blockquote>Not to sidetrack or anything.. but do Pouches and such get the same bonuses? AKA thrown weapons?</div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div><p>So again, lets ask the questions one more time. Why on earth are rangers being forced to (yes I said forced to) buy crafted arrows from a crafter to maximize their damage when no other class has to pay for their damage on thier primary auto attacks at all?<font color="#3300ff"></font></p><hr></blockquote>You are correct in your assertion that "...rangers being forced to (yes I said forced to) buy crafted arrows from a crafter to maximize their damage when no other class has to pay for their damage on thier primary auto attacks at all?", but I think you are missing the big picture with this change. I guess it all depends on how you view this fix.If you view this fix as a way of reducing our arrow consumption and associated costs to zero and keeping our DPS the same as it is now then this is exactly what it does. There is no reason for anyone to complain about it. We are no longer forced to pay to do the same damage we currently do.However, the devs have thrown in a bit of a bonus. For those Rangers that want to spend a little extra cash, you can do even more damage than you are doing now and show those other classes who's boss. I view this as no different to spending money on mastercrafted vs handcrafted poisons or the best piece of fabled armor to give you some extra DPS. People think of nothing at spending 20PP on a piece of armor to get that extra 2% DPS, so spending 1.5G on a stack of ammo that will last you twice as long as before and cost you 25% of what it did before should be viewed in this light.To recap, if you want to do the same DPS as you do now, and spend nothing on arrows, then this fix does exctly that.Now, if the devs turned around and said "You know what ? We've decided to make player made ammo do the same damage as gathered" would you complain then ? You might not (you shouldn't as this is what you're asking for !), but I bet Woodworkers would be a bit miffed, and those non-uber Rangers (myself included) who wanted a chance to try to close the gap to the T8 ammo boys would also be disappointed.</div><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:04 PM</span>

[electricninjasex]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:<div>With arrows, it may be more of a steady flow since they are a consumable.  I would probably compare arrow market activity to something like repair kits or poisons.</div><hr></blockquote>I would argue that repair kits follow the same dynamic as adornments; people buy a ton at first because new content is exciting and intimidating... however, demand diminishes because mobs and zones artifically get made easierand easierand easier(I'm disappointed by how many guilds could beat the pumpkin off the bat last night)</div>

[Anaun]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>You can thank Noel Walling for the recipe changes and ammo balancing.   Chris Kozak made the code changes to remove the ammo requirements from the combat arts, so as you can see, it really is a team effort.  I'm just a guy that has an interest in these changes because I play a Ranger.  I checked with Noel and he said that for now, recipe costs will not be changing, the yield will just increase x4.  So instead of 25 arrows for a pristine result, you'll get 100.  In effect thats a nice cost reduction, but also has the added benefit of saving lots of crafting time.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Kudos to all involved then. If the changes go live as presented here, you'll have another happy Ranger.</P> <P>Granted, there still other issues such a drop rates on bows, surveillance, lack of DPS modifiers, etc. But none of these take away from the fact that this alone is a huge improvement.</P> <P>Some people just aren't going to be happy, no matter what you offer. But, I hope the vast majority realize how much these fixes will help not only Rangers, but other classes as well.</P> <P>Thanks for bringing it back to the forefront, and getting everyone involved. Thanks for patiently listening to our concerns, and keeping us informed in a timely manner, in spite of the flames.</P> <P> </P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Magroo wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are correct in your assertion that "...rangers being forced to (yes I said forced to) buy crafted arrows from a crafter to maximize their damage when no other class has to pay for their damage on thier primary auto attacks at all?", but I think you are missing the big picture with this change.<BR><BR>I guess it all depends on how you view this fix.<BR><BR>If you view this fix as a way of reducing our arrow consumption and associated costs to zero and keeping our DPS the same as it is now then this is exactly what it does. There is no reason for anyone to complain about it. We are no longer forced to pay to do the same damage we currently do.<BR><BR>However, the devs have thrown in a bit of a bonus. For those Rangers that want to spend a little extra cash, you can do even more damage than you are doing now and show those other classes who's boss. I view this as no different to spending money on mastercrafted vs handcrafted poisons or the best piece of fabled armor to give you some extra DPS. People think of nothing at spending 20PP on a piece of armor to get that extra 2% DPS, so spending 1.5G on a stack of ammo that will last you twice as long as before and cost you 25% of what it did before should be viewed in this light.<BR><BR>To recap, if you want to do the same DPS as you do now, and spend nothing on arrows, then this fix does exctly that.<BR><BR>Now, if the devs turned around and said "You know what ? We've decided to make player made ammo do the same damage as gathered" would you complain then ? You might not (you shouldn't as this is what you're asking for !), but I bet Woodworkers would be a bit miffed, and those non-uber Rangers (myself included) who wanted a chance to try to close the gap to the T8 ammo boys would also be disappointed.<BR><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're missing the whole issue. Max DPS is what you should be striving for at each and every raid. Thats the only reason that a Ranger is taken along on a raid. Period. End of discussion. No one takes a ranger on raids for buff. we arent invited for debuffs or heals, and we [I cannot control my vocabulary] sure arent there to tank. DPS! Thats it, thats all.</P> <P>So, yes, its true, you dont HAVE to buy your arrows. Nope, you can lag behind the rest of the Rangers that are going to be handing over yet more plat, only this time its not going to be removed from the game, its going to line the pockets of woodworkers. </P> <P>Your two choices are... </P> <P>1. I can be subpar and use my summoned arrows  ... </P> <P>                           or</P> <P>2. I can spend money to max out my dps, continue to be poor, and continue to spend money with every shot.</P> <P>Which one you want to be is up to you, and your pocketbook.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now, moving along to the last part of your post. This should in no way close the gap that much verses a ranger (myself included here) with a T8 summoning bow. Now follow me as I explain this... One more time for you.</P> <P>T8. Or Level 70 Ammo... Also Legendary Ammo. Should be higher then anything in game with the exception of the EH arrows. v/s</P> <P>T7. Or Level 60 Ammo... Handcrafted or lower in value. Regardless of the type of arrow used. Higher Tier, Higher Quality should win.. Hands down.</P> <P> </P> <P>And for the record, I dont know any ranger thats spent 20p on Armor... Mostly because.. well, we just couldnt afford it before that.</P>

[nirav21]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls.</P> <P align=left>Dunt cancel this update like you did with teh Attack Hawk change.</P> <P align=left>Also while you guys are playing around with this pls try to think about introducing imbue mechanism to the Arrows.</P> <P align=left>example Cold imbued arrows, Heat imbued arrows etc. </P> <P>Common Devs Ranger class needs this, make it happen!!.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:26 PM</span>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls Pls.</P> <P align=left>Dunt cancel this update like you did with teh Attack Hawk change.</P> <P>Common Devs Ranger class needs this, make it happen!!.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Arent you the same one that asked for all Bows to be ranger only?</P> <P>No one is asking for them to cancel this. Im all for the CAs not using arrows. My only concerns are going to be with how much better will the crafted arrows be, how much are they going to cost, and how many will a typical night raiding consume. Obviously, we cant answer the cost. Anything that reduces the amount of money some rangers are paying for arrows is a good thing. I just dont want this to come back and bite anyone in the behind. If arrows end up costing rangers more in the long run, its a step in the wrong direction. There really is no way to control the price of player crafted arrows, except by woodworkers. And it wouldnt be unheard of for a crafting class to get together on a server and "control" the price of an item. In the event that woodworkers for an agreement like that, we could end up paying 2-10 times the cost for fuels. While its true that no one is going to pay 1g an arrow, the market will have to make adjustments, it could still end up being quite costly.</P>

[LordSpazz]

Double attack !!+++ arrow dmgca = no arrowrangers getting all the [I cannot control my vocabulary] this xpac /lucky .  ... i vote devs work on assassins <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <p>You're missing the whole issue. Max DPS is what you should be striving for at each and every raid. Thats the only reason that a Ranger is taken along on a raid. Period. End of discussion. No one takes a ranger on raids for buff. we arent invited for debuffs or heals, and we [I cannot control my vocabulary] sure arent there to tank. DPS! Thats it, thats all.</p> <p>So, yes, its true, you dont HAVE to buy your arrows. Nope, you can lag behind the rest of the Rangers that are going to be handing over yet more plat, only this time its not going to be removed from the game, its going to line the pockets of woodworkers. </p> <p>Your two choices are... </p> <p>1. I can be subpar and use my summoned arrows  ... </p> <p>                           or</p> <p>2. I can spend money to max out my dps, continue to be poor, and continue to spend money with every shot.</p> <p>Which one you want to be is up to you, and your pocketbook.</p> <p>Now, moving along to the last part of your post. This should in no way close the gap that much verses a ranger (myself included here) with a T8 summoning bow. Now follow me as I explain this... One more time for you.</p> <p>T8. Or Level 70 Ammo... Also Legendary Ammo. Should be higher then anything in game with the exception of the EH arrows. v/s</p> <p>T7. Or Level 60 Ammo... Handcrafted or lower in value. Regardless of the type of arrow used. Higher Tier, Higher Quality should win.. Hands down.</p> <p>And for the record, I dont know any ranger thats spent 20p on Armor... Mostly because.. well, we just couldnt afford it before that.</p><hr></blockquote>The issue we are talking about and this change has been put in place to address is reducing ammo consumption in such a way that gathered arrows are sufficient for Rangers to use so that their costs are reduced to zero. Do you not agree this has indeed been fixed ?As you are already a T8 arrow user, I don't see how any of this talk of player made ammo really affects you anyway. Nothing has changed with regard to your ammo. It's still the best and will continue to be after the patch and is totally free still for you. So why exactly do you care about any of this ?Frankly I find your whole "subpar" comment a bit insulting. I use T7 ammo and I don't consider myself subpar at all. I consider myself par. Those players, like yourself, who are better than me with the T8 ammo should be considered above-par. The T8 ammo bows are not intended for everyone to have so it's crazy for raids to demand Rangers have them. I've never met a raid leader who did, and I suspect I never will. I suspect I know why you care. Your complaint is nothing to do with you being forced to spend money to get max DPS. You already have the T8 ammo, you don't need to spend money.  It's the best ammo in the game. You have the best bow in the game. This is a total non-issue for you.I can only conclude that you are worried that those T7 players who chose to spend the money can get closer to your DPS at raids which somehow makes you look bad ? Perhaps I am being too harsh and you are genuinely concerned for all us poor sub-par Rangers out there who will be spending a fortune in a vain effort to keep up with your uberness ? Well I wouldn't worry, we'll be quite happy with vendor arrows and so will the raids we join. After all, they are happy now with our DPS and we've already agreed this won't change. Once again, your T8 ammo will still be the best, you will not be overtaken by any sub-par rangers who have chosen to waste their money. If I am being overly harsh I apologise, but I really don't see why you are making a big issue of this still. If I want to max my DPS, then I *have* to get the rare raid bows and use the T8 summoned arrows. Well quite obviously that isn't possible for everyone, so are you saying that the 90% of Rangers without these bows are just going to have to accept they're not worthy to come on raids with the big boys ? (If I can't come on the raid, how am I ever expected to get the bow ??)</div><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 PM</span>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EQ2Magroo wrote:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>The issue we are talking about and this change has been put in place to address is reducing ammo consumption in such a way that gathered arrows are sufficient for Rangers to use so that their costs are reduced to zero. Do you not agree this has indeed been fixed</FONT> ?<BR><BR>As you are already a T8 arrow user, I don't see how any of this talk of player made ammo really affects you anyway. Nothing has changed with regard to your ammo. It's still the best and will continue to be after the patch and is totally free still for you. So why exactly do you care about any of this ?<BR><BR>Frankly I find your whole "subpar" comment a bit insulting. I use T7 ammo and I don't consider myself subpar at all. I consider myself par. Those players, like yourself, who are better than me with the T8 ammo should be considered above-par. The T8 ammo bows are not intended for everyone to have so it's crazy for raids to demand Rangers have them. I've never met a raid leader who did, and I suspect I never will.<BR><BR>I suspect I know why you care. Your complaint is nothing to do with you being forced to spend money to get max DPS. You already have the T8 ammo, you don't need to spend money. <BR><BR>I can only conclude that you are worried that those T7 players who chose to spend the money can get close to your DPS at raids which somehow makes you look bad ? Perhaps I am being too harsh and u are genuinely concerned for all us poor sub-par Rangers out there who will be spending a fortune in a vain effort to keep up with your uberness ? Well I wouldn't worry, we'll be quite happy with vendor arrows and so will the raids we join. After all, they are happy now with our DPS and we've already agreed this won't change. Once again, your T8 ammo will still be the best, you will not be overtaken by any sub-par rangers who have chosen to waste their money.<BR><BR>If I am being overly harsh I apologise, but I really don't see why you are making a big issue of this still. If I want to max my DPS, then I *have* to get the rare raid bows and use the T8 summoned arrows. Well quite obviously that isn't possible for everyone, so are you saying that the 90% of Rangers without these bows are just going to have to accept they're not worthy to come on raids with the big boys ?<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No I dont. Im not looking at it from a casual perspective. Im looking at it from a high end raid perspective. Any and all means required to boost your DPS should be used. Keep that in mind, if this means that end game raid rangers are going to be forced to shell out more money then they have been in the past, not its not a fix. </P> <P>Yes I know you arent going to please everyone all the time. And while it might be a good fix for causal rangers, solo ranger and group rangers, its not a good solution all the way around. We, along with 3 other classes, are already required to boost our damage by buying poisons. This has the potential to increase those costs.</P> <P>And while its true, this doesnt affect me.. its only true in part. The whole statement to make it correct is. "This doesnt not affect me YET!". T8 ammos great and all, but if/when theres a level cap increase, theres also the potential that our lengenday ammo will be worthless next to player crafted of the same tier. Thats a concern. It doesnt have anything to do with my "uberness".  If you notice, at the moment, Im currently not guilded. Im not raiding with anyone. The concern is real. And I have spoke up on many occassions about the need for more "tweener" bows. That is, more bow that fall between the high end bows, and Grizzles. So that gaps between twinked out high end rangers, and up and coming rangers can compete, yet still maintain some degree of difference. I do believe if you are killing the hardest stuff in the game, you should have the best gear. I also believe that if you want to kill the hardest stuff in the game, you'll do whatever it takes to get that job done. Like say... oh I donno, buying better quality arrows from woodworkers. And while the difference might be small, there will still be a difference. And thus, anyone not using something better like T8 ammo, isnt living up to their full potential.. thus.. subpar. Its not meant to be a snide remark. It is what it is. With all the DPS threads that get generated in the ranger forums, do you really think that if somethings going to improve it, ppl arent going to want to use it? And eventually, we all might have to buy player crafted arrows to compete.<BR></P>

[jjlo69]

well until i see the dmg differnce on crafted and t8 summoned ammo i personally wil not be worried; however, your concern about what happens once we have to relevel our toon. well im gonna assume that the summon ammo from a dt bow should still be better then the crafted/summoned due to the fact that it will be in the same teir and worse case should get a boost to be in line since it will still be level 70 ledgenary and not handcrafted or common so even at a higher lvl within the teir it should still be better.

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jjlo69 wrote:<BR> well until i see the dmg differnce on crafted and t8 summoned ammo i personally wil not be worried; however, your concern about what happens once we have to relevel our toon. well im gonna assume that the summon ammo from a dt bow should still be better then the crafted/summoned due to the fact that it will be in the same teir and worse case should get a boost to be in line since it will still be level 70 ledgenary and not handcrafted or common so even at a higher lvl within the teir it should still be better.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Does it matter when its going to affect you? It might not this tier, it might not in T8, but unless they keep those arrow summoning bows coming, its going to affect everyone sooner or later.</P> <P>And while I agree that the summoned bow ammo should be higher damage for this tier, as well as T8 due to quality, I have my doubts.</P>

[Cuz]

Once every one here is cool with the change, could you send Rothgar1 over to the troubs?Grats on a great addition rangers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Caliga]

Terriblades I'm glad you are here to try to reason with people.  If this change comes into game I will have to buy crafted arrows.  Why?  Because I believe in doing the best I possibly can for my guild and my groups.  That means I can't use subpar arrows if I can afford better.   Sure that mean perpetual poverty and worst of all, my summon arrow spell will once again be junk.  I actually have boxes of summoned arrows in the bank because I hit that button everytime its up.  The day LU32 hits, all my effort is wasted.While I'm glad CAs are going to no longer taking arrows, I have no desire to be at the mercy at woodworkers.   You can't hand us a carrot and then slap us with it.  Why not  simply leave non-crafted arrows alone.  Please.<div></div>

[Mirdo]

<DIV>Terri, I've given up on this one. I've got my summoning bow. Let the people desperate to hand cash over to crafters for every shot they make (and still be worse off than us) go that way if they want.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I might post on this again if the level cap increases some time in the future and it starts to affect me, as foul 'ole Ron might say, Buggrit millenium hand and shrimp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mirdo.</DIV>

[Badaxe Ba]

<DIV>EQ2Magroo wrote<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <P>So again, lets ask the questions one more time. Why on earth are rangers being forced to (yes I said forced to) buy crafted arrows from a crafter to maximize their damage when no other class has to pay for their damage on thier primary auto attacks at all?<FONT color=#3300ff><BR></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You are correct in your assertion that "...rangers being forced to (yes I said forced to) buy crafted arrows from a crafter to maximize their damage when no other class has to pay for their damage on thier primary auto attacks at all?", but I think you are missing the big picture with this change.<BR><BR>I guess it all depends on how you view this fix.<BR><BR>If you view this fix as a way of reducing our arrow consumption and associated costs to zero and keeping our DPS the same as it is now then this is exactly what it does. There is no reason for anyone to complain about it. We are no longer forced to pay to do the same damage we currently do.<BR><BR>However, the devs have thrown in a bit of a bonus. For those Rangers that want to spend a little extra cash, you can do even more damage than you are doing now and show those other classes who's boss. I view this as no different to spending money on mastercrafted vs handcrafted poisons or the best piece of fabled armor to give you some extra DPS. People think of nothing at spending 20PP on a piece of armor to get that extra 2% DPS, so spending 1.5G on a stack of ammo that will last you twice as long as before and cost you 25% of what it did before should be viewed in this light.<BR><BR>To recap, if you want to do the same DPS as you do now, and spend nothing on arrows, then this fix does exctly that.<BR><BR>Now, if the devs turned around and said "You know what ? We've decided to make player made ammo do the same damage as gathered" would you complain then ? You might not (you shouldn't as this is what you're asking for !), but I bet Woodworkers would be a bit miffed, and those non-uber Rangers (myself included) who wanted a chance to try to close the gap to the T8 ammo boys would also be disappointed.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>As it stands now, I spend money on arrows because summoning them does not fill my need!  I COULD not spend money now and just do LESS of anything but stand around summoning arrows, or become a very poor melee class.  I don't call it a bonus to purchase arrows to do better, I do that now.</DIV> <DIV>To conclude, yes the removal of Ammo from CA's "WILL" help some, yes increasing the combines of woodworkers "MIGHT" help some, YES it will still cost us money to supply our DPS output.  A swashbuckler friend offered me 300 arrows just recently, and said to me he just doesn't use them that much.  At roughly 10 arrows per minute at current usage, and roughly 6 arrows per minute at projected rate for the proposed change, its NOT a great extension of playing time.</DIV> <DIV>1 arrow/6 sec.= 10/minute=600/hour</DIV> <DIV>1arrow/10 sec = 6/minute=360/hour +40MIN=600 arrows</DIV> <DIV>Now here's an alternative.</DIV> <DIV>Flip the script.  Take out the autoattack damage and convert it to CA's.  Make our CA's do the equivalent dmg output of autoattack and the accompanying procs that come from autoattack and I believe this would really do more for providing a solution.  For example lets look at the triple shot line.  How come a successful 3 arrow shot does less damage than 1 good autoattack shot?  I am considering the proc damage on the autoattack as well when I make that statement. Now remember that that CA just cost you mana and ammo currently.  Our CA's could be boosted and auto dmg reduced, if the numbers are balanced.  </DIV> <DIV>I think every ranger will agree we only want NOT to be tied to a tradeskill in order to perform.  We don't want to sacrifice our damage output in order to accomplish this though.  If looked at this way, then crafted arrows that give a BOOST or specific plus can be considered as a marketable product worth crafting. I think overall you should right now do a survey on each server for number of crafted arrows per tier, and average price as well.  I think woodworkers already have a niche in the market with consumable totems, and a look at current arrow stockprices should certainly be considered as well.<BR></DIV>

[Deson]

<div></div>I think one major question needs to be clarified and it's been asked before- When ranger damage is balanced, is it balanced using summoned arrows?If the answer to that question is yes then, with a few CA tweaks, crafted arrows are a bonus. If they made it easier to swap active arrows, I don't see an issue with saving specialty arrows for important/ special fights. If you can parse on par with assassins with regular summoned then all other arrows are a luxury.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Deson on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 PM</span>

[Wades]

Cool lol, so now you must be ranger, alchemist and woodworker !Or reroll mage :p<div></div>

[NikkiT]

<blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<BR><P>Im guessing that you dont play a hardcored raiding ranger, or you might better understand the issue here. We already pay for poisons, as do 3 other scout classes, so I can live with that. What no other class in the game has to settle for boils down to this. <FONT color=#3300ff>"If you</FONT><FONT color=#3300ff> want to hit your peak damage potential, you'll have to buy XXX from XXX crafting class."<FONT color=#3300ff></FONT>  </FONT></P><P>So again, lets ask the questions one more time. Why on earth are rangers being forced to (yes I said forced to) buy crafted arrows from a crafter to maximize their damage when no other class has to pay for their damage on thier primary auto attacks at all?<FONT color=#3300ff><BR></FONT></P><hr></blockquote>What is your problem? Being on top has never been cheap. Every decent raidforce I know pays their members for consumables (potions, poisons, repair kits etc.) out of the profit from selling loot nobody needs anyway. The raidforce wants the additionaly dps, so they pay for it.You should be glad that they are introducing a method for increasing your dps even more by paying a woodworker a few measly gold coins instead of complaining.Or maybe you want me to arrange a strike in the woodworkers forum so nobody sells rangers any arrows and everyone is on the same level again? That can be done... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div><div></div>Well I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think everything has been fixed and nobody has any (valid) reason to complain currently.T8:If you're a T8 ammo user, then you shold be happy ! Your summoned ammo will still be the best in game. The fact that CAs no longer use ammo means that your bow will be able to summon enough arrows for you to raid 24/7 without you running out. There is no need to buy player made arrows at all as your ammo is the best. The T7 player made < T8 bow summoned and I see nothing from the devs to suggest that this won't be the case. You win ! Now, here's some specualtion on my part. Note it's nothing to do with this fix and is all speculation on my part. I might be totally wrong, but here goes:<speculation>In my view the T8 bow summoned ammo was put in the game to give those people using it a DPS advantage over other T7 players, but not over T8 players (because there is no such thing currently). I think it was a short term fix to patch a big whole in our high-end DPS and it wasn't really thought through as to its impact with future expansions. This why I think that if you're a T8 ammo user then you may be in for a shock when the level cap is increased. The T8 summoned ammo from those bows will not be the best in game any more. That will be the T8 player made (everyone can buy), or for ultimate DPS the T9 summoned ammo from the new level 80 bow. If you want to get max DPS for free then you'll need to go get the T9 summon bow (just like you now have to get the T8 bow).It will be impossible for the devs to balance DPS if they have to assume that all T8 players will be using this super legendary T8 ammo ? If they do, then 90% of Rangers without this ammo will be coming in at below the balanced DPS and will be complaining about being nerfed. If they don't balance against this ammo, then those with it will be doing "too much" DPS and other classes will be crying out for all Rangers to be nerfed. Either way, the problem you are trying to avoid will actually become more likely - the only Rangers asked to any raid at T8 will be those using this legendary ammo. The other 90% of Rangers will be excluded because they can't hope to keep up. </endspeculation>I do think the whole area of what happens with the bow summoned ammo once tier 8 is unlocked is unknown and potentially worrying regardless of if you own one of these bows or not. It's going to be tough to please all camps. I don't think though that this thread is the right place to fix it, so it might be a good idea to start a new one. I'm sure there will be a lot of people wanting to make sure T8 is done right !T7:If you're a T7 ammo user, then you can do exactly the same damage as you do now, but you've just gone and saved yourself 2PP per day as your summoned arrows will do the same damage as before and you'll have more than you ever need. Great !If you're a T7 ammo user, but you really want to push for extra DPS, then you can spend money buying player made arrows. But nobody is going to force you to do this, only yourself. Remember, this DPS is above what we do currently. It's a stealth DPS un-nerf. Yep, we just got a DPS increase without even expecting it. Don't tell the casters ! If your DPS is good enough to get invited on raids now, it will be in the future too even without using this ammo.BTW, for those worrying about Woodworker price gouging on player made arrows at T7, the cost to make a stack of arrows will be 1.5G. You'll need less than 10 stacks for a full on raid and it will take the Woodworker about 10 minutes to make them for you. Compare this to anything up to 2 hours before. Are you really that hated on your server that you can't find a Woodworker willing to spend 10 minutes to make those for you for < 20G ? Now yes I agree that in an ideal world we should be getting the best arrows at each tier for free, but that's clearly not going to happen whilst we have a tradeskill class that has recipes to make them. If the devs want to give us best arrows for free, they would have given us endless quivers. It's just not going to happen. Ever. The best we can hope for is that they reduce fuel costs to 1 sandpaper, and that would give a cost to make of about 40s per stack at tier 7, which is as close to "free" as to make very little difference.<div></div><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:43 AM</span>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>EQ2Magroo wrote</P> <P></P> <HR> T8:  too uber to care <P>T7:<BR><BR>If you're a T7 ammo user, then you can do exactly the same damage as you do now, but you've just gone and saved yourself 2PP per day as your summoned arrows will do the same damage as before and you'll have more than you ever need. Great !</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333 size=5>FALSE!  THERE is no way to summon fast enough!</FONT><BR><BR>If you're a T7 ammo user, but you really want to push for extra DPS, then you can spend money buying player made arrows. But nobody is going to force you to do this, only yourself. Remember, this DPS is above what we do currently. It's a stealth DPS un-nerf. Don't tell the casters ! So if your DPS is good enough to get invited on raids now, it will be in the future too even without this ammo.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333 size=5>WE DO THIS NOW! EXCEPT ITS MERCHANT ARROWS AS WELL!</FONT><BR><BR>BTW, for those worrying about Woodworker price gouging on player made arrows at T7, the cost to make a stack of arrows will be 1.5G. You'll need less than 10 stacks for a full on raid and it will take the Woodworker about 10 minutes to make them for you. Compare this to anything up to 2 hours before. Are you really that hated on your server that you can't find a Woodworker willing to spend 10 minutes to make those for you for < 20G ? Now yes I agree that in an ideal world we should be getting the best arrows at each tier for free, but that's clearly not going to happen whilst we have a tradeskill class that has recipes to make them. If the devs want to give us best arrows for free, they would have given us endless quivers. It's just not going to happen. Ever.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3333 size=5>AND TO TOP IT OFF, AN INSULT?  SERIOUSLY, COST IS ONLY THE BEGINNING AND THAT WILL DIFFER FROM SERVER TO SERVER, NOW FIGURE IN THE WOODWORKER'S PROFIT MARGIN.  HOW DO YOU DO THAT? YOU DON'T, THE MARKET DOES!  I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO COULD MAKE 10 PRISTINE STACKS IN TEN MINUTES, BUT EVEN SO, HERE WE ARE STILL PAYING MONEY TO PUT OUT DPS!  </FONT></P> <P>Ok, if you haven't guessed, this post had me seeing red.  But this blanket statement of "this will solve all our problems" is glaringly in the wrong, and I felt the need to point this out.  No raiding ranger is able to do so just off his/her summoned arrows, the time constraint alone is overwhelming.  Using examples of what might be in the future for what IS now just doesn't hold water, much less a viable argument.  Hell, just doing a couple of group instances last night, and I used 800+ arrows.  Toss in poisons and potions and totems and 'gasp' a repair bill too, and while I had fun with my friends, I hope somebody buys something from me, or the night will be in 'the red'. </P> <P>And FYI, trying to come up with constructive suggestions is not complaining.  Even if a person IS complaining, what gives you the power to decide whether its valid or not?</P>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div><div></div>Please go away and read what the devs have written, then you might not be seeing red. You have not fully understood all the changed they are making.1. No way to summon fast enough ? Have you done the maths ?Tier 7 master I summons 60 arrows per 10 mins right ? That's 360 per hour. <b>They have removed arrow usage from CAs, so only AA consumes them now.</b> With haste you're looking at a max of 900 arrows an hour if you spend 100% of the time in combat. That means no breaks for mana, all mobs continuosly spawning right in front of you, no stuns, no moving to find mobs, no time spent looting, chatting, or setting up groups.  Assuming it takes 11 minutes for you to start raiding after logging on (yeah right), you'll be able to gather another 120 arrows (remember timers will clear whilst you are logged off), so that give you 480 arrows. If you really spend more than 50% of your time online in a raid actually firing off arrows then you might have a problem, otherwise you're going to accrue spares.You yourself admit you used 800 arrows last night. How long were you raiding for ? 2 Hours or more ? Once this fix goes in you'll have easily been able to gather enough to replace 800 arrows in this time. Please don't tell me that you don't have any downtime ouside raids either. How do you get your stuff repaired, buy food/drink, travel between zones, do quests etc. ?2. Extra DPS. I simpy don't believe that merchant arrows do any more DPS than gathered ones at this time. Nobody has demonstrated any serious prasing to prove otherwise. Saying that you got 1% more on merchant arrows on 1 run is not an indicator. That could just be down to RNG or group makeup. The fact that the devs believe they are better means nothing. It's clear they don't really know. They are adding this to the new player made arrows so we should be happy, it's something we don't currently have that we can use as an option if we like. Don't forget that if you do decide to pay for arrows, you're using half the arrows, and the price of those arrows would have falled by 75%.3. 10 Pristine stacks in 10 minutes is easy for any Woodworker, <b>now that they are changing to 100 arrows per pristine combine</b>. At the moment it's 25, so you could only make 4 stacks. If we just the WW some slack and say 1.5 minutes per combine, then that's 15 mins. Still way better than 2 hours. I would certainly expect WWs to be able to supply their guildies now without too much problem.<div></div>Let me make this as clear as I can:- as a result of these changes Rangers <b>*will not* be paying any money at all to give out the same DPS as we do now</b>. This is a fact. Why is this so hard to understand ? They have done exactly what we asked them to do. Why are people not happy ?- If you want to do even more DPS than before (yay, a bonus !), then the devs have also given us a way to do that too. The cost of doing this will be <20G rather than 2PP. I know it's not free, but that's a pretty big discount to me. <p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:13 AM</span>

[Oakum]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hmm, maybe I should delete baby ranger. A good thing is happening for rangers but people complain about it. </P> <P>If people keep complaining about buying crafted arrows for extra DPS I can see the Dev's just removing them and nerfing the T8 arrows so as too lower complaints about the arrows being too good compared to summoned/vender arrows. </P> <P>Its kinda of funny that some people complain about paying woodworkers for thier work for them. It seems these people want everything for free or maybe they are trying to be the richest whatever on the leader boards and so are afraid that if they pay for what is made for them by another player, that person might raise above them on the list. </P> <P>I am just glad the dev's see through those type of complaining posts. Otherwise it will be "raiders" getting crafted items and non raiders who would use them nerfed (or I should say not boosted) again due to complaints about it being "too" good and that they "MUST" buy them. Like tradeskills products in T6 that they felt they "had" to buy in order to be able to do content that they could then get good legendary equipment from.</P> <P>I really hope the Dev's see through the complaint post though.  If the last couple of sentences doesn't apply to you, then don't let it bother you. As the saying goes "if the shoe fits, wear it" if not return it to the store. </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rothgar1 wrote:<BR><I>With third degree burns, Rothgar crawls from the pit of flames on hands and knees collapsing in exhaustion.  In his last dying breath you can hear him mutter "<FONT color=#ff3333>Summoned... arrows... aren't... getting... nerfed..."<BR><BR></FONT></I>First off, this is the risk I take by discussing something a month before its due to go live.  Things change.  Maybe in the future I'll wait longer before opening my mouth.  Maybe things will change again before the update.  But as it stands now, summoned arrows will not see a damage decrease.<BR> <BR>Vendor purchased arrows will do less damage than summoned. Crafted arrows will have different bonuses to range, accuracy and damage depending on the type.  Stack size for ammo will default to 100 instead of 99.<BR><BR>I think this post is flame-free, but we'll see.  <FONT color=#ff6633>You guys sure make it hard to want to help sometimes.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT>  That's ok though, a little bit of heat won't keep me out of the kitchen.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Shut it Terri....</P> <P>and in the case of increasing lvl Cap.</P> <P>with newer lvls comes newer spells. Maybe even new Ancients that give super dmg elemental arrows.</P><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[wickedba]

<DIV>This is wonderful news for both rangers and woodworkers. Thank you so much!</DIV>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div><blockquote><hr>EQ2Magroo wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Let me make this as clear as I can:- as a result of these changes Rangers <b>*will not* be paying any money at all to give out the same DPS as we do now</b>. This is a fact. Why is this so hard to understand ? They have done exactly what we asked them to do. Why are people not happy ?- If you want to do even more DPS than before (yay, a bonus !), then the devs have also given us a way to do that too. The cost of doing this will be <20G rather than 2PP. I know it's not free, but that's a pretty big discount to me. <p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>I want to emphasize the points above. <b>You will be consuming less arrows</b> so your arrow yield from at least summoned will be increasing. You don't have to buy any arrows if you are grouping/casually raiding. Even if you are a serioius raider, <b>you will still be consuming less arrows. </b>Can anyone at least recognize this is a good thing?The vast majority of the Ranger population will see an increase in effectiveness and have more fun with these changes. Just my opinion. If you are at the high end raiding, instead of complaining, try adding suggestions to this thread (as Zholain and others have done in other threads in the past.) At least try constructive criticism. It would help the devs to understand where you are coming from. Just attacking them doesn't help anyone, raiding rangers or not. Of course, just my opinion also. This thread is headed towards Ranger Flamefest 2007...maybe we can keep it away from there?</div>

[Caliga]

I think people are missing what's upsetting here.  I think if they left summoned alone then way fewer people would be upset.  But since summoned is getting a damage reduction, to be as good as your are now, you will HAVE to pay money.   I don't see why I have to get pushed down for WW to get a hand up.   If you want to make crafted arrows better, fine.  But I don't see why summoned has to be decreased for any other reason than to force me to buy from WW.<div></div>

[BigChiefJJ]

<P>Pink -</P> <P>Summoned arrows are not getted touched:  this was posted today by Ilucide as coming out on Test soon:</P> <UL> <UL> <LI><SPAN>Store-bought arrows have the lowest damage potential, range and accuracy. </SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Ranger summoned arrows have mid-line damage potential, range and accuracy - these arrows have not changed from their current state on live. </SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Tradeskilled arrows now have the following properties: </SPAN></LI> <UL> <LI><SPAN>Broadhead arrows: High damage, low range, low accuracy, slashing damage type. (These arrows were formerly known as hunting arrows.) </SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Bodkin arrows: Medium damage, medium range, medium accuracy, piercing damage type. </SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Field point arrows: Low damage, high range, high accuracy, crushing damage type. (These arrows were formerly known as rounded arrows.)</SPAN></LI></UL></UL></UL> <P><SPAN>Looks like we will be doing ok and our summoned line will not be touche, and we will have the opportunity to buy better arrows than we have now.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by BigChiefJJ on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:12 AM</span>

[MoonglumHMV]

<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=128647#M128647" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=128647#M128647</A> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soon on Test (no, I don't have an exact date), you should be seeing changes for tradeskill created ammo and store-bought ammo. If you're a ranger and you're reading this, please don't be alarmed. You're probably already using mostly summoned ammo, and nothing on that is being touched at all, I promise!<BR><BR>There are a few other things which should be going in too - namely that combat arts will no longer use ammo, and arrows will show information about what their stats are.<BR><BR>The changes below are all slated to go in for GU32:<BR></DIV> <UL> <LI>All tradeskilled ammunition now has a max stack size of 100. Previously it fluctuated between 99 & 100 depending on level.</LI> <LI>All store-bought ammunition now has a max stack size of 100. Previously it fluctuated between 99 & 100 depending on level.</LI> <LI>All tradeskilled ammunition recipes award 25, 50, 75, or 100 items depending on the tradeskill success.</LI> <LI>All tradeskilled ammunition should correctly show up as 'HANDCRAFTED' rather than 'UNCOMMON'.</LI> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff66>Specific to arrows, the following changes have been made: </FONT></STRONG> <UL> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff66>Store-bought arrows have the lowest damage potential, range and accuracy. </FONT></STRONG></LI> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff66><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>Ranger summoned arrows have mid-line damage potential, range and accuracy - these arrows have not changed from their current state on live.</FONT> </FONT></STRONG></LI> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff66>Tradeskilled arrows now have the following properties: </FONT></STRONG> <UL> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff66>Broadhead arrows: High damage, low range, low accuracy, slashing damage type. (These arrows were formerly known as hunting arrows.) </FONT></STRONG></LI> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff66>Bodkin arrows: Medium damage, medium range, medium accuracy, piercing damage type. </FONT></STRONG></LI> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff66>Field point arrows: Low damage, high range, high accuracy, crushing damage type. (These arrows were formerly known as rounded arrows.)</FONT></STRONG></LI></UL></LI></UL></LI> <LI>No tradeskilled or store-bought ammunition may be adorned. Not that we want to make adornments for limited use ammunition anyway, but all tradeskilled arrows should now clearly state this (they should be tagged with the ORNATE flag).</LI> <LI>Woodworker tradeskill writs which previously called for 150 arrows or thrown items now call for 600. This is the same number of pristine combines as before the recipe change. Where applicable, the writs also reflect the correct new name of the arrow type (broadhead or field point).</LI> <LI>Woodworker tradeskill rush-order writs which previously called for 75 arrows or thrown items now call for 300. This is the same number of pristine combines as before the recipe change. Where applicable, the writs also reflect the correct new name of the arrow type (broadhead or field point).</LI></UL> <DIV>Enjoy, and please take a look on test when the changes get there! <SPAN><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>I have bolded/yellowed the portion regarding arrows...again, just info that is out there, just getting the info to the people...it's what I do <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> LOL</SPAN></P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Caliga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:Don't hold me to this, as GU32 is still a month away.  But it looks like summoned arrows will only see a decrease of about 6% on auto-attack only.  Auto-attack does not make up a large part of our dps according to the parses I've done, so overall I think this will be fine.  Especially considering that the crafted arrows will give a bigger dps boost.<div></div>The summoned arrows from Bazkul and Ichorstrand are a higher tier than crafted arrows.  So they will definately do more damage than the standard crafted arrows, but I'm not sure how they will compare to the "rounded" arrows that will have a damage bonus on top of the tier.  Its possible if the damage bonus is high enough on rounded arrows that they may do as much damage as the higher tier summoned arrows with no damage bonus.  All of these stats haven't come out of the wash yet, so we'll just have to see as it gets close to the end of February.The plan is to also modify the examine window so you'll be able to see what effects certain ammo will have on your attacks.<hr></blockquote>Well if he hadn't said it.  I wouldn't be arguing about it.  They leave summoned alone then I have nothing to complain about.  Great thread. *waves*</div>

[BigChiefJJ]

<P>Well if he hadn't said it.  I wouldn't be arguing about it.  They leave summoned alone then I have nothing to complain about.  Great thread. *waves*<BR></P> <P>I think they have chaged thier minds 2-3 times from what the intial plan was - and initially Ilucide mentioned that there would not be a change in summoned arrows - guess its just that since nothing is final yet, the different devs are not all on the same page.  And we all know how pages get changed from one day to the next.</P>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>I APPROVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY OF THE CHANGE IN OUTPUT OF WOODWORKER MADE ARROWS, AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY OF REMOVING AMMUNITION FROM CA's!  But it still won't be free however.....</P> <P>1.  Too many assumptions that EVERY ranger has M1 summoning arrows.  Simply not true.  Say the average ranger has at least apprentice IV.  This rate is 30 arrows per 10 minutes.  Rates set with only the top end in mind are biased against the lower rates.  AA adjustments are by personal choice only, and therefore shouldn't be included in any formula to find an average.</P> <P>2.  Every individual plays in a different style or method, thereby making it very difficult to "standardize" a general fix.</P> <P>3.  Evidence supporting either of the two sides of the 'vendor bought arrows and their damage rate AS IT IS ON LIVE NOW' hasn't given us a conclusive argument for being for or against it.  As a matter of fact, this hasn't been implemented on the test server yet either.  Let us gather evidence before accepting this blindly!  I say again I APPROVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY OF THE CHANGE IN OUTPUT OF WOODWORKER MADE ARROWS, AND WHOLEHEARTEDLY OF REMOVING AMMUNITION FROM CA's!</P> <P>4.  Arrow summoning rates simply cannot be based upon gametime played.  After all, as one person pointed out, what about repair/food/group/questing time?  That is a two way street by the way, cough cough.  </P> <P>5.  Too many people read only the first post, and then respond to that.  Take the time to read other peoples previous posts and arguments for crying out loud!  From the first post by Rothgar1, many ideas both good and bad have been produced.  Flaws have been found, and solutions proposed and accepted.  </P> <P>One final question, that maybe will help me resolve at least part of this issue to my satisfaction.  What other class has to purchase consumable ammunition to better their damage output at the rate rangers do?</P>

[Lev]

Thats a good post Badaxe, and I bet that over 50% of the posts in this thread was made without actually reading through the thread.I agree that the situation these changes make are not the best possible, but I think too many fail to realize that even if Woodworkers were to overprice arrows (which with competition will not last long). Even if that was the case and we would be seeing crafted arrows at prices like 5-10s, we would still see a decrease in expenses. Fair enough 10s an arrow is quite expensive, but with the arrow consumption changes even this will be less than what it was.And I say again, thinking that standing around summoning arrows is more profitable than to buy arrows and spend that time hunting is wrong, and will give you nothing but personal grief.. I know this cause I used to be there, I used to never buy arrows at all, I ended up spending most of my weekdays just hitting the Reclaimed button every 10 minutes. Had I just gotten over myself and spent a plat in arrows I could have made that plat back before I would have been out of arrows.. Oh yes don't get me wrong, it was and is extremely unfair, and it still will be unfair. But these changes do nothing but improve our situation. Ok there are variables to consider, that we cannot really know the truth to until we see it in action, like how actual arrow prices will stabilize, if woodworkers will bother to make arrows even now, how much our arrow consumption really will go down by this (I am guessing around 50% decrease, if not more).And ok, we should not be dependant on a TS class? We allready are dependant on Alchemists aren't we? I understand this makes us dependant of another class and makes it unfair, but not more than it allready is. I can see no circumstances where this will "nerf" us, or that our expenses will it be time or money goes up. <div></div>

[VisualFoundry]

<P>It's interesting how this thread pertains to another ranger concern, namely our dps output on raids. I think that many of the rangers who dislike the remaining dependence on crafted arrows are overlooking the fact that this change will effectively increase our dps should we choose to purchase crafted arrows. This is a roundabout way of receiving something that we've asked for all along. And with the improvements that we've seen as a result of the EoF AA lines we may actually be at or near the top of the parse again in raids.</P> <P>As a raiding ranger myself I see these changes as a wonderful thing. Assuming the changes go in as they have been most recently listed by our gracious dev, we will see not only a reduction in arrow consumption of around 50% (give or take depending on play style) but a potential reduction in crafted arrow cost of 75% due to the 4x increase in arrows made per combine. Combined that equates to rangers potentially spending 1/8th the amount of coin they currently do and getting an increase in dps. This change not only gives rangers most or all of the things they've asked for in the past, but also gives woodworkers a viable new product.</P> <P>And for roleplayers, the progression of arrows even makes sense:</P> <P>1. Merchant Arrows: These are the equivalent of buying a golf club at Wal-Mart. You can't expect quality from a generic vendor and thus they should yield the lowest results.</P> <P>2. Summoned Arrows: After running through thousands of arrows (often per week), a ranger should have an intimate knowledge of the characteristics of a good arrow. Their knowledge enables them to use (imaginary) items that exist around them to contrive arrows. The limiting factor with this method is that the ranger has neither the raw materials nor the equipment in the field to create arrows that are the equal of a woodworker's.</P> <P>3. Woodworker Crafted Arrows: A woodworker's knowledge and training enable him/her to create arrows of the finest materials, and for a variety of purposes. The woodworker is able to use precision tools and specialized knowledge to create arrows that are of the highest quality.</P> <P>4. Bow-Summoned Arrows: Without knowing if or what lore exists regarding Ichorstrand and Baz'Kul, I think it is reasonable to expect that arrows that are made by magical means would have qualities that exceed those of even the most finely handcrafted arrows.</P> <P> </P> <P>Hask Grayscale</P> <P>70 Ranger, Tacticians of Vengeance, Kithicor</P>

[blackdog1]

Rothgar1 I for one apreciate you coming here and telling us the devs thought process.It gives us a chance to voice our concerns and maybe bring up some things the devs didn't think of.Case in point.you mentioned the "possibility" of the 6% summoned arrow dps reduction.Maybe some of the things that are being brought up might make the devs rethink that among other things. <div></div>

[blackdog1]

It's easier to just say 6%.Since thats what the dev said.Than actually calculate what the actuall damage factor would be.Each arrow does 6% less damage.Just easier to say and have everyone know what I'm talking about. <div></div>

[Lev]

For the tenth time.. Summoned Arrows are NOT being nerfed, they are staying exactly like they are now, crafted arrows however is getting a slight increase, while vendor arrows are getting nerfed to about 3/4 of the new crafted arrows. Leaving summoned arrows between the two.<div></div>

[blackdog1]

Please understand my man.I wrote the post BEFORE I read that. <div></div>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:<font color="#cc0000" size="6">For the tenth time.. Summoned Arrows are NOT being nerfed, they are staying exactly like they are now, crafted arrows however is getting a slight increase, while vendor arrows are getting nerfed to about 3/4 of the new crafted arrows. Leaving summoned arrows between the two.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm thinking that this is one of those times that huge bold fonts might be in order?</div>

[Lev]

<div><blockquote><hr>blackdog1 wrote:Please understand my man.I wrote the post BEFORE I read that. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry didn't mean to come down on you, but considering the info was posted first on page 4, yet we have managed to fill this thread with 5 more pages because people did not bother to read the entire thread.</div>

[nirav21]

<P>Ok now is a question about how this method is gona work.</P> <P>Let say crafted arrow type has high range and low damage. I know the damage only effects Auto attack but what about range?</P> <P>Does that mean high range with auto attack only? So u can only use autto attack and CAs will be blanked out?</P> <P>Or</P> <P>CA Range will also be higher?</P>

[Anaun]

<DIV>OMG Rothgar1 ... run it off ... yell it off !!! EVAC !!! EVAC !!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Pictures Lockeye, Illucide, and Aeralik laughing @ Rothgar1)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileytongue:</DIV>

[Giland]

This update sounds very nice to me. Having been watching this thread through all 9 pages, I like the resolutions and can't wait for the implementation.Good work sir !<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>nirav21 wrote:</P> <P>Shut it Terri....</P> <P>and in the case of increasing lvl Cap.</P> <P>with newer lvls comes newer spells. Maybe even new Ancients that give super dmg elemental arrows.</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Pretty wishful thinking on your part. And for the record, you wont be getting a new arrow summoning spell next teir. So, unless you have a bow that summons arrows for you, you will be buying them from crafters or using the ranger summoning line from the previous teir.(read, pay for your dps, or deal subpar dps)</P> <P>But you know what. Im done trying to explain to everyone why being forced to rely on a crafter to yeild our peak damage is a problem.</P> <P>And yea, I know all the agruements.. Its only 2% of your total DPS, or possibly 4% depending on the boosts the crafted arrows will provide.</P> <P>We wont be spending as much money .... This can not be confirmed at this time. You dont know what your servers base market prices are going to be. Yeah, it could be less, it could be about  the same.... and it could be more. Point is, we shouldnt have to continue to pay for our primary damage when no other class out there has such a thing.</P>

[Faelen]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>nirav21 wrote:</p> <p>Shut it Terri....</p> <p>and in the case of increasing lvl Cap.</p> <p>with newer lvls comes newer spells. Maybe even new Ancients that give super dmg elemental arrows.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Pretty wishful thinking on your part. And for the record, you wont be getting a new arrow summoning spell next teir. So, unless you have a bow that summons arrows for you, you will be buying them from crafters or using the ranger summoning line from the previous teir.(read, pay for your dps, or deal subpar dps)</p> <p>But you know what. Im done trying to explain to everyone why being forced to rely on a crafter to yeild our peak damage is a problem.</p> <p>And yea, I know all the agruements.. Its only 2% of your total DPS, or possibly 4% depending on the boosts the crafted arrows will provide.</p> <p>We wont be spending as much money .... This can not be confirmed at this time. You dont know what your servers base market prices are going to be. Yeah, it could be less, it could be about  the same.... and it could be more. Point is, we shouldnt have to continue to pay for our primary damage when no other class out there has such a thing.</p><hr></blockquote>Your argument amazes me.  And after so many people disagree with you, you are still so stubborn you aren't willing to look at it from anyone else's perspective.Poison makes up a huge part of our dps, and we have to pay a crafter for it.  So why aren't you complaining about poisons?  Should poisons just be free or taken out of the game?Potions can also make a big difference when using things like Elixer of Tactics.  Oh no, a crafter makes it and it costs money.  In order to do our best dps we're required to buy it.  Lets take out potions too.Using crafted arrows is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than using poisons or potions.  Its another method to increase your dps with money.  Why have you singled it out to be a big problem all of a sudden?If you can't stand the idea of paying for things to improve your dps, switch to a wizard.</div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelen wrote: <DIV><BR>Your argument amazes me.  And after so many people disagree with you, you are still so stubborn you aren't willing to look at it from anyone else's perspective.<BR><BR>Poison makes up a huge part of our dps, and we have to pay a crafter for it.  So why aren't you complaining about poisons?  Should poisons just be free or taken out of the game?<BR><BR>Potions can also make a big difference when using things like Elixer of Tactics.  Oh no, a crafter makes it and it costs money.  In order to do our best dps we're required to buy it.  Lets take out potions too.<BR><BR>Using crafted arrows is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than using poisons or potions.  Its another method to increase your dps with money.  Why have you singled it out to be a big problem all of a sudden?<BR><BR>If you can't stand the idea of paying for things to improve your dps, switch to a wizard.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First off Faelen, I seem to recall you telling me that we were going to need to "talk" after you and I first raided together. Unless you've gotten super uber in the month and half since Ive left D12, you can stop right there.</P> <P>Yes, we pay for poisons, but we arent the only class to do so. There are 3 other scout classes that do the same thing. When you can name 1 other class that has to pay ANYTHING for their primary form of damage, then we can talk.</P> <P>Are we going to get an upgrade to the reclaimed line in T8? No... so then what happens? You get 3 choices if you dont have a bow to summon T8 ammo for you.</P> <P>You can use your T7 reclaimed arrows (not recomended), you can buy vendor arrows (also not recomended) or you can buy player crafted ammo.</P> <P>Im all for reducing the arrow usage of a ranger, I think its a great change. Im also all for giving woodworkers some loven. I dont think the way to do it, is with a bandaid fix that involves making rangers the primary source of income for a woodworker. So come T8, T10, T12, T14 you will be buying all of your arrows from crafters or vendors. Does that sound fixed to you? When rangers were supplementing thier arrow usage it would cost them several plat to raid.. EACH night. How much are you willing to spend next tier just so you can continue to raid? </P> <P>So again, one more time. Being the only class that PAYS for their primary auto attack is flawed. Being forced to rely on crafters every other tier further compounds that. We already spend money to boost our DPS, why do we have to continue to spend more money? Everyone is looking at this as though someone just invented the wheel. Yeah, On paper, it looks good. It also looks good this tier because you have the OPTION to not increase your DPS and saving some money by using your summoned arrows.</P> <P>So please.. anyone that doesnt have a Bazkul or Ichorstrand, please... enlighten me on just what you plan on doing when they raise the level cap. What are you going to do for arrows? And dont give me hypotheticals. Dont tell me that "Well we could get a new arrow summoning line" or "maybe we'll get new bows to summon arrows". Cause at the moment, its all wishfull thinking.</P>

[jjlo69]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jjlo69 wrote:<BR> well until i see the dmg differnce on crafted and t8 summoned ammo i personally wil not be worried; however, your concern about what happens once we have to relevel our toon. well im gonna assume that the summon ammo from a dt bow should still be better then the crafted/summoned due to the fact that it will be in the same teir and worse case should get a boost to be in line since it will still be level 70 ledgenary and not handcrafted or common so even at a higher lvl within the teir it should still be better.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Does it matter when its going to affect you? It might not this tier, it might not in T8, but unless they keep those arrow summoning bows coming, its going to affect everyone sooner or later.</P> <P>And while I agree that the summoned bow ammo should be higher damage for this tier, as well as T8 due to quality, I have my doubts.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>your right it wont effect me or anyone else with t8 ammo or anyone that gets one after until we get to t9 by then rangers will get a newer a new makeshift arrows ca and raiding ranger may have to farm again for arrows unless endless quiver makes it aa wise to t8 or  t9 but util we get to t9 if there will even be a t9. right now for the moment u ask what happens when/if we start leveling again and point blank t8 will and should be used for a long time to come. so lets just get this right now and worry about t8/t9 when and if it ever comes into play

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <p>First off Faelen, I seem to recall you telling me that we were going to need to "talk" after you and I first raided together. Unless you've gotten super uber in the month and half since Ive left D12, you can stop right there.</p><font color="#cc0000">So just because he wanted some advice means his opinion isn't valid? Arrogant to say the least.</font><p></p>Yes, we pay for poisons, but we arent the only class to do so. There are 3 other scout classes that do the same thing. When you can name 1 other class that has to pay ANYTHING for their primary form of damage, then we can talk. <p>Are we going to get an upgrade to the reclaimed line in T8? No... so then what happens? You get 3 choices if you dont have a bow to summon T8 ammo for you.</p> <p>You can use your T7 reclaimed arrows (not recomended), you can buy vendor arrows (also not recomended) or you can buy player crafted ammo.</p> <p>Im all for reducing the arrow usage of a ranger, I think its a great change. Im also all for giving woodworkers some loven. I dont think the way to do it, is with a bandaid fix that involves making rangers the primary source of income for a woodworker. So come T8, T10, T12, T14 you will be buying all of your arrows from crafters or vendors. Does that sound fixed to you? When rangers were supplementing thier arrow usage it would cost them several plat to raid.. EACH night. How much are you willing to spend next tier just so you can continue to raid?</p><p></p>So again, one more time. Being the only class that PAYS for their primary auto attack is flawed. Being forced to rely on crafters every other tier further compounds that. We already spend money to boost our DPS, why do we have to continue to spend more money? Everyone is looking at this as though someone just invented the wheel. Yeah, On paper, it looks good. It also looks good this tier because you have the OPTION to not increase your DPS and saving some money by using your summoned arrows. <p>So please.. anyone that doesnt have a Bazkul or Ichorstrand, please... enlighten me on just what you plan on doing when they raise the level cap. What are you going to do for arrows? And dont give me hypotheticals. Dont tell me that "Well we could get a new arrow summoning line" or "maybe we'll get new bows to summon arrows". Cause at the moment, its all wishfull thinking.</p><font color="#cc0000">Your entire argument is based on assumption, you have assumed that the devs won't change the previous dispersal of summoned arrows, which is ridiculous considering that they are not only looking into but actually attempting to fix arrow useage, unless you're a dev and know exactly what they have planned for the Ranger class in T8 in which case I'll gladly listen to your plans for us, other than that it's a moot point until T8 arrives and only serves to make you look desperate in your arguments.</font></blockquote></div>

[TerriBlades]

<P>Nuladen, I really dont recall saying that his points were, or were not valid... that was more or less for the remark of "go play a wizard".</P> <P>Im still waiting on an answer to my question.</P> <P>To rangers without T8 arrow summoning bows, what are they going to do when T8 rolls around?</P> <P>Concern for how this is going to impact players after this tier, should be a concern for every ranger. If all anyone wants is a fix for this tiers arrow problems.. then great. I'll stop thinking about how this will affect us. Because for the moment, due to reclaimed arrows.. and not having to buy arrows, this is a great fix. However, until they change the reclaimed arrow line to every 10 levels. Its still an issue. If you cant, or wont acknowledge that.. then fine, we can end this discussion right here.</P>

[Nulad]

Yes you did, 'You can stop right there' is pretty much dismissing his remarks, unless I've misunderstood which is always very possible.Yes it's a concern and I'd like an answer to your question too, but for now I'm more interested in a solution we can use in this tier rather than shooting it down in flames over an assumed fact.  I'll say it again, devs are attempting to fix our current situation, if they really don't listen and leave us in the position you have assumed will happen in later tiers then there really is no hope, but for now lets concentrate on fixing what we can and do use.<div></div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <p>Nuladen, I really dont recall saying that his points were, or were not valid... that was more or less for the remark of "go play a wizard".</p> <p>Im still waiting on an answer to my question.</p> <p>To rangers without T8 arrow summoning bows, what are they going to do when T8 rolls around?</p> <p>Concern for how this is going to impact players after this tier, should be a concern for every ranger. If all anyone wants is a fix for this tiers arrow problems.. then great. I'll stop thinking about how this will affect us. Because for the moment, due to reclaimed arrows.. and not having to buy arrows, this is a great fix. However, until they change the reclaimed arrow line to every 10 levels. Its still an issue. If you cant, or wont acknowledge that.. then fine, we can end this discussion right here.</p><hr></blockquote>Well I have a lot of options:1. Use the new T8 summoned arrows spell we will get at level 70 now that the devs have changed when we get the spell.2. Do the new diety quest to get a Ranger only endless quiver.3. Use the new Ranger only lvl70 HQ bow that summons T8 arrows which is a new quest for T8.4. Use Woodworker made T8 arrows which are now really cheap because the devs reduced fuel cost to 1 sandpaper rather than 4.None of these options actually exist, but you know what ? Neither does T8, so your assertion that all of us non-uber players will be in trouble is equally as (in)valid.The fix Rothgar and his team have put in place is addressing T7 and below issues that exist *now* and it does it better than we could ever have imagined. All of our complaints have been fixed. If you truely believe there is the possibility of issues in T8, then go start a thread like I suggested previously and get some dev involvement, rather than trying to derail this thread with "what ifs ?" that are based on your guess work and have nothing to do with our current issues.</div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <P>Im still waiting on an answer to my question.</P> <P>To rangers without T8 arrow summoning bows, what are they going to do when T8 rolls around?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why wouldn't people just use their makeshift.  Since it gets upgraded every 14 levels, we should get a T8 version at level 76 under the current system.  Am I missing something?<BR>

[Stormwolf86]

<DIV>Can we get a definitive answer? Are Summoned Arrows from Ichorstrand and Bazkul the Soulseeker going to be better than all other arrows? They really need to be.</DIV>

[Teksun]

Now they need a WW made Point Blank Arrow... I think they would clean up then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />/sits back and watches the storm<div></div>

[Badaxe Ba]

For the 95% of us rangers who DON'T have Ichorstrand or Bazkul bows, and who are understandably more concerned with the fixes/adjustments proposed in the immediate update, a reminder to the 5% who do have those weapons that worrying about future advancements is a valid point for you, but not for the rest of us.  You raise a good point on the t8 legendary arrows.  But I don't think the question has been looked at yet, so now isn't the time.  Lets continue to focus on the upcoming changes, and put our best input forward.  To any who just jumped on to the last page, GO Back AND READ ALL THE POSTS!

[blackdog1]

Faelen,there is a big diffrence from paying for poisons and paying for arrows.I'm amazed that your missing it.The diffrence being everyone that uses poisons must pay for them.Not just rangers.By paying for the arrows,the devs are singling out one group of players and MAKING them pay for a third of there dps's.It's akin to making Meleers having to use a new wet stone every 10 swings to sharpen their blades and making them pay for the wet stones.Also,we now have to pay for 2 seperate products to dps properly.Why not make it 3 or 4.Not counting food and drink of course. <div></div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>blackdog1 wrote:Faelen,there is a big diffrence from paying for poisons and paying for arrows.I'm amazed that your missing it.The diffrence being everyone that uses poisons must pay for them.Not just rangers.By paying for the arrows,the devs are singling out one group of players and MAKING them pay for a third of there dps's.It's akin to making Meleers having to use a new wet stone every 10 swings to sharpen their blades and making them pay for the wet stones.Also,we now have to pay for 2 seperate products to dps properly.Why not make it 3 or 4.Not counting food and drink of course. <div></div><hr></blockquote>FOR THE LAST TIME !!ONCE THIS FIX GOES IN, RANGERS WON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ARROWS ANY MORE !! WE CAN SUMMON ALL THE ARROWS WE NEED, WITHOUT SPENDING HOURS STANDING AROUND JUST SUMMONING.OK, the small print is that if you are a non-T8 arrow Ranger, and you really really want to max you DPS over and above what the Ranger class has been balanced to do, then yes, you can pay for player made arrows. I repeat, if you want to do the damage that your class has been "designed" to do, (even though you may not agree that this "design" is high enough, but that is a seperate issue entirely) then you do not need to pay any money - you simply use summoned arrows. Zero cost, and after the fixes go in, it should be zero down-time spent too.Anyone who complains about buying player made arrows, but isn't prepared to complain about buying poisons, potions, food, Master 1 spells etc. is ignoring the fact that all classes have to pay to some extent do their *max* DPS (food/drink/potions apply equally to all classes). Maybe Rangers have to pay a bit more, maybe not, but all classes have their crosses to bear. If you still think you are being *forced* to pay for DPS, then please consider the following:- When this change goes in, nobody is going to be complaining about Ranger DPS if they are using the free summoned arrows. Their DPS will be exactly the same as it is today. If your raid leader complains, I suggest you get a new raid leader, or join a server that is used by sensible, mature adults.- If the devs reverse the proposed change so that the player made arrows do the same damage as summoned arrows, then all you "max DPS" people should be happy right ? To achieve the fabled "max DPS" then all a Ranger needs to do is use their free summoned arrows. So, in effect you're asking the devs to take out a potential DPS increase for *all* us non-uber Rangers, because you think we aren't prepared to pay just 1/8th of what we used to pay to do even less damage ?- If you truely do want player made arrows to be equal to summoned, then in that case I say let's take out the grandmaster poisons too. I don't like paying more for those than the master poisons (note, I'm not going as far as asking for poisons to be free, just that the better, more expensive option that some Rangers like to use to max their DPS, is removed. Sound familiar ?)  Also, I don't like the fact that some Rangers can afford AD3 and Master spells, my App2 should do the same damage as those. Why should other Rangers do more DPS than me just because they want spend an extra few GP ? Sounds crazy doesn't it ? Perhaps you can now understand how your complaining sounds to the rest of us, who see this change as nothing but 100% good news.</div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div>Why wouldn't people just use their makeshift.  Since it gets upgraded every 14 levels, we should get a T8 version at level 76 under the current system.  Am I missing something?<hr></blockquote>Well this is a good point that's been raised and I'm going to start a thread on it and see if we can get some dev input (although I doubt they'll want to get burned again)Why are the makeshift arrows available so far into a tier and not from the first level of a tier ?Surely, when I hit level 50, I should be using tier 6 ammo (lvl 50 ammo). I can buy the vendor stuff, and player made stuff and start using it, so why not gather my own ?I think there is a genuine complaint here in that even after the proposed fixes, those Rangers who have not yet reached the next level of makeshift arrows *are* being *forced* to pay to achive the DPS that the devs expect for their tier.The game design assumes that a tier 5 Ranger is using tier 5 ammo, but he can't do this for free until level 48. That's 8 whole levels with crippled DPS. It gets even worse once you hit tier 6. Tier 7 isn't too bad as it's "just" 2 levels, but it's still wrong.There's also another complaint about Rip being one tier behing, and I think I'll fold that into the thread too.</div>

[blackdog1]

EQ2magroo.I wasn't really complaning about having to pay for the crafted  arrows.Tho after rereading my post I see how you would come to that conclusion.And I don't think our harvested arrows should be the equal of the summoned.What my point was, that I stated badly, was why do we have to pay for "2" things(Crafted arrows and poisons) to realize the DPS we should be putting out. Say within 5%-!0% of the other dps classes.I am saying our dps with poisons,shoud be nearer to the Assasine's and other dps classes output without buying crafted arrows.Then if you bought the crafted arrows,depending on the ranger,equal to or a bit better than the other dpsers.My logic being,if I have to pay for 2 things for max dps,I should reap the rewards. The way it is now,I have to spend alot more money to "maybe" be the equal of other dps classes.It's the only thing we do.Why are we the worst at it? <div></div>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>EQ2Magroo wrote</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><BR><FONT size=2>FOR THE LAST TIME !!</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#3333ff>Yet the very next post is yours.</FONT><BR><BR>ONCE THIS FIX GOES IN, RANGERS WON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ARROWS ANY MORE !! WE CAN SUMMON ALL THE ARROWS WE NEED, WITHOUT SPENDING HOURS STANDING AROUND JUST SUMMONING.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#3333ff>You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.  we can summon all the arrows we need without spending hours standing around just summoning.  CA's aren't summoning ammo (except for rip arrow line=1 arrow per use w/restriction on space in your inventory) for use at another time.  Time will still be required to summon arrows.  This is also affected by the number of arrows summoned by the quality level of your summoning ability.</FONT><BR><BR>OK, the small print is that if you are a non-T8 arrow Ranger, and you really really want to max you DPS over and above what the Ranger class has been balanced to do, then yes, you can pay for player made arrows. I repeat, if you want to do the damage that your class has been "designed" to do, (even though you may not agree that this "design" is high enough, but that is a seperate issue entirely) then you do not need to pay any money - you simply use summoned arrows. Zero cost, and after the fixes go in, it should be zero down-time spent too.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I <FONT color=#3333ff>once again point out that time will still be required to summon arrows.  NO other class has to do this for ammunition to supply approximately 40% of our damage output.<BR></FONT><BR><BR>Anyone who complains about buying player made arrows, but isn't prepared to complain about buying poisons, potions, food, Master 1 spells etc. is ignoring the fact that all classes have to pay to some extent do their *max* DPS (food/drink/potions apply equally to all classes). Maybe Rangers have to pay a bit more, maybe not, but all classes have their crosses to bear. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#3333ff>This is the Ranger forum and we are discussing Ranger changes and people will complain about anything anyway, but my argument to this is the irrelevence of the other items you pointed to when they don't affect all classes equally, nor do all classes use all those items.  Lastly, you failed to explain why we should have to carry a 500LB wooden cross around to play our class.<BR></FONT><BR>If you still think you are being *forced* to pay for DPS, then please consider the following:<BR><BR>- When this change goes in, nobody is going to be complaining about Ranger DPS if they are using the free summoned arrows. Their DPS will be exactly the same as it is today. If your raid leader complains, I suggest you get a new raid leader, or join a server that is used by sensible, mature adults.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0033ff>See above statement in regards to what people will complain about, and explain why exactly the people complaining now are going to suddenly stop.</FONT> <BR><BR>- If the devs reverse the proposed change so that the player made arrows do the same damage as summoned arrows, then all you "max DPS" people should be happy right ? To achieve the fabled "max DPS" then all a Ranger needs to do is use their free summoned arrows. So, in effect you're asking the devs to take out a potential DPS increase for *all* us non-uber Rangers, because you think we aren't prepared to pay just 1/8th of what we used to pay to do even less damage ?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT color=#3333ff>Excuse me, sir, the bean counters, they have gone and pointed out that Combat arts average approximately 35% of ammunition usage at current rates, therefore it is only reasonable to expect at best an expenditure rate reduction of 35%.  They also point out that this alleged number does not take into consideration any factors at all when it comes trying to predict (insert shudder here) market fluctuations, or commodities buyers. In other words, no guarantees, no warranties.</FONT><BR><BR>- If you truely do want player made arrows to be equal to summoned, then in that case I say let's take out the grandmaster poisons too. I don't like paying more for those than the master poisons (note, I'm not going as far as asking for poisons to be free, just that the better, more expensive option that some Rangers like to use to max their DPS, is removed. Sound familiar ?)  Also, I don't like the fact that some Rangers can afford AD3 and Master spells, my App2 should do the same damage as those. Why should other Rangers do more DPS than me just because they want spend an extra few GP ? Sounds crazy doesn't it ? Perhaps you can now understand how your complaining sounds to the rest of us, who see this change as nothing but 100% good news.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3333ff size=2>Let me get this straight.  You are now recommending that alchemists should not make poisons for scouts?  This would include assassins and swashbucklers as well as just rangers.  Interesting.    Is it just rangers you don't want to have the ability to improve their combat skills or do you prefer all classes?  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3333ff size=2>/steps away from the issue.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3333ff size=2>/steps further back.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3333ff size=2>Guess I'm not on your side then.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2><BR> </FONT></P>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>nirav21 wrote:</P> <P>Shut it Terri....</P> <P>and in the case of increasing lvl Cap.</P> <P>with newer lvls comes newer spells. Maybe even new Ancients that give super dmg elemental arrows.</P> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff6633> And for the record, you wont be getting a new arrow summoning spell next teir</FONT>.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nubcakes. Reclaimed arrows is lvl 62. Add 14 lvls to it since a spell gets upgraded every 14 lvls. = lvl 76. Which is less then lvl 80.</P> <P>And thats just going by the current spell upgrade mechanism. Devs can change that if they wish.</P>

[FluffyDestroyerofWorlds]

<div></div><div>[...]<blockquote><p>So please.. anyone that doesnt have a Bazkul or Ichorstrand, please... enlighten me on just what you plan on doing when they raise the level cap. What are you going to do for arrows? And dont give me hypotheticals. Dont tell me that "Well we could get a new arrow summoning line" or "maybe we'll get new bows to summon arrows". Cause at the moment, its all wishfull thinking.</p><hr></blockquote>Because I swear that I saw that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :o-ing horse move...For raiders, save up every last scrap of DKP you can get your grubby little mits on and bug the <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :o out of your raid leaders to schedule raids for those zones where those bows drop.  If you're in a hard-core guild (and are a Ranger *gasp*) you're evidently valued enough that your guildies should understand the necessity of equipping you with summoning bows.  For those of us in casual raiding guilds, even after the next expansion, there are still going to be plenty of raids called for T7 raid zones.  Same thing applies, we're just not going to see that things (probably) for a while longer.For non-raiders, I see two (ahem) options: betrayal or leveling a woodworker.Personally, if it gets that bad, I'll probably end up just playing one of my two alts full-time.  We went through the same :O <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> with DoF.  I would hope that there are simply unspoken-of features that will probably be added to the Ranger class to mitigate the obvious problem that leaving summoned arrows out of a tier would cause.Regards,Smoothie Le'Clot [ 70 Ranger ]Shadows & DustMistmoore</div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Badaxe Bart wrote:<div></div> <p>EQ2Magroo wrote</p> <p></p> <hr> <p><font size="2">FOR THE LAST TIME !!</font></p> <p><font size="2"><font color="#3333ff">Yet the very next post is yours.</font></font></p><p><font size="2"><font color="#ff0099">Y<font color="#ff0066">our point being ? I was addrssing a slightly different issue there. And when I say "for the last time" it's an expression you use when you are fed up with people not reading previous posts and misquoting or misrepresenting the facts.</font></font></font></p><p><font size="2">ONCE THIS FIX GOES IN, RANGERS WON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ARROWS ANY MORE !! WE CAN SUMMON ALL THE ARROWS WE NEED, WITHOUT SPENDING HOURS STANDING AROUND JUST SUMMONING.</font></p> <p><font size="2"><font color="#3333ff">You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.  we can summon all the arrows we need without spending hours standing around just summoning.  CA's aren't summoning ammo (except for rip arrow line=1 arrow per use w/restriction on space in your inventory) for use at another time.  Time will still be required to summon arrows.  This is also affected by the number of arrows summoned by the quality level of your summoning ability.</font></font></p><p><font color="#ff0066" size="2">yes, we will have to "spend time" summoning arrows. However, that time is time you will be spent playing the game. It will not be lost time. Having to log in just so you can collect arrows is one thing (this is not going to happen any more). Collecting arrows whilst actively raiding is another. Please don't try to misrepresent the facts. Or are you saying you won't be satisfied until we have endless quiver ?</font></p><p><font size="2">OK, the small print is that if you are a non-T8 arrow Ranger, and you really really want to max you DPS over and above what the Ranger class has been balanced to do, then yes, you can pay for player made arrows. I repeat, if you want to do the damage that your class has been "designed" to do, (even though you may not agree that this "design" is high enough, but that is a seperate issue entirely) then you do not need to pay any money - you simply use summoned arrows. Zero cost, and after the fixes go in, it should be zero down-time spent too.</font></p> <p><font size="2"><font color="#3333ff">once again point out that time will still be required to summon arrows.  NO other class has to do this for ammunition to supply approximately 40% of our damage output.</font></font></p><p><font size="2"><font color="#ff0066">So your solution is endless quivers ? Do you even have a solution ? What's so hard about clicking an additional icon every 10 minutes whilst we raid ? That's all it is, don't make it seem harder than that.</font>Anyone who complains about buying player made arrows, but isn't prepared to complain about buying poisons, potions, food, Master 1 spells etc. is ignoring the fact that all classes have to pay to some extent do their *max* DPS (food/drink/potions apply equally to all classes). Maybe Rangers have to pay a bit more, maybe not, but all classes have their crosses to bear. </font></p> <p><font size="2"><font color="#3333ff">This is the Ranger forum and we are discussing Ranger changes and people will complain about anything anyway, but my argument to this is the irrelevence of the other items you pointed to when they don't affect all classes equally, nor do all classes use all those items.  Lastly, you failed to explain why we should have to carry a 500LB wooden cross around to play our class.</font></font></p><p><font size="2"><font color="#ff0066">What 500lb wooden cross ? The devs give as s dedicated invetory slot to hold our ammo in. Even if you don't, I think the RP guys love it. Ah, I bet you're talking about having to carry around bags full of arrows. Read the fix, you won't have to any more. A 22 slot quiver will hold days worth of arrows.</font> </font></p><p><font size="2">If you still think you are being *forced* to pay for DPS, then please consider the following:- When this change goes in, nobody is going to be complaining about Ranger DPS if they are using the free summoned arrows. Their DPS will be exactly the same as it is today. If your raid leader complains, I suggest you get a new raid leader, or join a server that is used by sensible, mature adults.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff0066"><font color="#0033ff">See above statement in regards to what people will complain about, and explain why exactly the people complaining now are going to suddenly stop.</font> </font></p><p><font color="#ff0066">This change means you don't need to pay the DPS your class was designed to do. You *do* have to pay if you want to to do even more DPS that the devs expect you to, but I are you saying you want this for free too ? Well the devs can take it out this DPS increase easily enough, after all nobody really asked for it this way, and I guess you'll be happy. Let me guess, you're another T8 ammo user afraid of looking bad in raids because some T7 Ranger is using player made ammo and is approaching your DPS.</font></p><p><font size="2">- If the devs reverse the proposed change so that the player made arrows do the same damage as summoned arrows, then all you "max DPS" people should be happy right ? To achieve the fabled "max DPS" then all a Ranger needs to do is use their free summoned arrows. So, in effect you're asking the devs to take out a potential DPS increase for *all* us non-uber Rangers, because you think we aren't prepared to pay just 1/8th of what we used to pay to do even less damage ?</font></p> <p><font size="2"><font color="#3333ff">Excuse me, sir, the bean counters, they have gone and pointed out that Combat arts average approximately 35% of ammunition usage at current rates, therefore it is only reasonable to expect at best an expenditure rate reduction of 35%.  They also point out that this alleged number does not take into consideration any factors at all when it comes trying to predict (insert shudder here) market fluctuations, or commodities buyers. In other words, no guarantees, no warranties.</font></font></p><p><font color="#ff0066">I'm not sure</font><font color="#ff0066"> consumption only going down 35%. It would interesting to see different parses to see what the number of arrows used is (rather than the amount of DPS from each type which I think is what we have currently)</font></p><p><font size="2">- If you truely do want player made arrows to be equal to summoned, then in that case I say let's take out the grandmaster poisons too. I don't like paying more for those than the master poisons (note, I'm not going as far as asking for poisons to be free, just that the better, more expensive option that some Rangers like to use to max their DPS, is removed. Sound familiar ?)  Also, I don't like the fact that some Rangers can afford AD3 and Master spells, my App2 should do the same damage as those. Why should other Rangers do more DPS than me just because they want spend an extra few GP ? Sounds crazy doesn't it ? Perhaps you can now understand how your complaining sounds to the rest of us, who see this change as nothing but 100% good news.</font></p> <p><font color="#3333ff" size="2">Let me get this straight.  You are now recommending that alchemists should not make poisons for scouts?  This would include assassins and swashbucklers as well as just rangers.  Interesting.    Is it just rangers you don't want to have the ability to improve their combat skills or do you prefer all classes? </font></p><p><font color="#3333ff" size="2"><font color="#ff0066">Once again with the misrepresenting. What is it with people who have lost an argument, that they feel the need to misread the facts ? What I am saying is that if you object to paying for arrows that do more damage than your free ones, then why don't you object to paying for rare poisons over normal poisons (normal poisons are not even free, but let's pretend they are for a second). </font> </font></p><p><font size="2"> </font></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>blackdog1 wrote:EQ2magroo.I wasn't really complaning about having to pay for the crafted  arrows.Tho after rereading my post I see how you would come to that conclusion.And I don't think our harvested arrows should be the equal of the summoned.What my point was, that I stated badly, was why do we have to pay for "2" things(Crafted arrows and poisons) to realize the DPS we should be putting out. Say within 5%-!0% of the other dps classes.I am saying our dps with poisons,shoud be nearer to the Assasine's and other dps classes output without buying crafted arrows.Then if you bought the crafted arrows,depending on the ranger,equal to or a bit better than the other dpsers.My logic being,if I have to pay for 2 things for max dps,I should reap the rewards. The way it is now,I have to spend alot more money to "maybe" be the equal of other dps classes.It's the only thing we do.Why are we the worst at it? <div></div><hr></blockquote>I think the key to the argument is raised very well right here in your post.<b>What my point was, that I stated badly, was why do we have to pay for "2" things(Crafted arrows and poisons) to realize the DPS we should be putting out.</b>My opinion is that our designed DPS is based around summoned arrows, and not crafted arrows. It's probably a moot point anyway, as I don't see any distinction between DPS output for summoned or crafted arrows currently. But in theory, the devs balance us assuming summoned arrows.So this means after the patch we will be able to achieve our designed DPS using the free crafted arrows.<b>I am saying our dps with poisons,shoud be nearer to the Assasine's and other dps classes output without buying crafted arrows</b>I agree. If we as Rangers don't think our designed DPS is enough (a valid argument I think), then we need to hassle the devs to get a DPS increase.However, I think that Ranger DPS vs other classes is a seperate issue altogether to arrow supply/usage. The devs could fix that by increasing a stat on our offensive buff or class trait for example.<font size="4"><b>To recap, the purpose of this fix:- To reduce Ranger costs associated with having to buy arrows because the supply from gathering them cannot keep up with demand.- The fix is *not* designed to increase Ranger DPS or rebalance it with regards to other classes. If you have a complaint about summoned arrows not dealing sufficient damage (why aren't you complaining now ?) please start a new thread to ge this issue addressed.</b></font></div>

[Lev]

<div></div>I just want to clearify a bit. Some of you have been unsure/confused about the actual decrease the CAs not consuming arrows will do.to illustrate this I dug up a post from LoreLady who did the math on this very thing back in the Arrows - Bloody Hell thread.<hr size="2" width="100%">In one minute you use 19 arrows with CA's per minuteConfounding arrow 2 arrows per minTrippleVolly 3 arrows per minPrecise shot 6 arrows per minLeg shot 6 arrows per minCulling of the weak 1 arrow per minVieled fire 1 arrow every 1 min 30<hr size="2" width="100%">A longbow, with a rangers average haste with a delay of say 4 will consume 15 arrows per minute.now thats over 50% decrease in arrow consumption.And thats not even counting eventual delay you get by CAs during combat.To recap, if you were to hit all your CAs perfectly for 1 hour that would be 1120 arrowsand as earlier stated 900 arrows per hour with only auto attack.thats a 55% decrease with these numbers. This will of course vary depending on delay of your bow and ammount of haste you have.But most have a 6.5 -7 sec delay bow, with a haste of around 50-80. If you have a better bow say Sarnak, LoC, or even Star Darkened your arrow usage will go down even more as their delays are longer.give or take we said it was possible to use about 1 quiver within 2 hours of adventuring gameplay. 1 quiver is now 2178 arrows.So with these numbers 2 hours of gameplay should be 980 arrows with the changes currently stated. So what used to be 2 hours will now be 4 hours and 30 minutes of actual adventuring gameplay.As I said these are give and take numbers as every situation differs, some have more downtime some have less etc etc etc.And as I said the little delay you give your auto attack with your CAs it does add up over the hours and it will make the % even higher. I still think the recipe changes should be looked into more, it's about the time vs. profit margin I am still worried about.<div></div><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 AM</span>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>EQ2Magroo's argument is based on unverified information and is therefore invalid.  </P> <P>When arrow usage is taken into consideration, You simply cannot assume that every single player will be able to keep summoning arrows at a compensatory rate.  </P> <P>Averages now show that CA's only use about 50% of our current ammunition rate, else why would SOE be looking at increasing the arrow production amounts as well?  I AM PLEASED THAT I WILL BE BUYING 50% LESS ARROWS, SINCE I PLAY ON A PVP SERVER, the last thing I want to do while chasing/being chased is stopping to show myself whileI summon arrows (can you say "Look there he is, get Him!).</P> <P>Based on EQ2magroo's statement, Rangers should be able to summon enough arrows to make the tradeskill changes unneccessary.  This is simply unproven, and the ratio of arrow usage provides evidence to support the opposite in fact.</P> <P>I do get to raid occasionally, like all players searching for better gear etc.  I DON"T  have a t8 ammo summoning bow as someone erronously assumed.  </P> <P>I keep pointing out, along with other people, how difficult any predictions are to make when it comes to market forces.  For example, currently on My PvP server crafed fulginate arrows (the highest tier I could find when I checked the broker) were priced starting at 13s 20c.  Yes, this included the 20% broker fee, because they weren't in a salesman's crate either.  Comparing to the vendor price of fulginate arrows at 3s 7c, and even removing the 20% bringing the price down to 11s per arrow, and you can see my concern about how difficult market prices are to predict, when it hasn't been implemented live yet.  </P> <P>Also, I don't say this to mean PvP should be treated different, nor do I mean that this change shouldn't be put in, as I LOVE the idea.  It just won't solve all our ammunition woes.  And yes, I buy grandmaster's poisons and potions, and totems too.  I try to use everything I can to gain the advantage in PvP combat.  If crafted arrows will do more damage, I guess I'll be spending Money on those as well.  This does have a side effect though, it negates in a way the purpose of this change, to reduce our cost for ammunition.  </P> <P>By the way, I've read every post on this thread.</P><p>Message Edited by Badaxe Bart on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[LoreLady]

As rabbit said, 15 arrows per minute consumed on alongbow with haste of 40.. 150 arrows every 10 minutes, you summon 60 in 10 minutes master one..The old system was 32 arrows per minute, comming out to be 320 arrows every 10 minutes..  Poisons are used up one every 20-30 minutes, comming to about 50s a poison..What your forgetting though is bounty, 30s every minute and a half comes to 2g every 10 mins, this is more than enough to compansate for the extra arrows and poisons in your typical group.As for complaining that you still have to pay money for this stuff, it is minor and now we will be atleast on par with the classes that have to buy reagents.. conj's have to pay 2g per coh, necro's have to pay for there rez, rouges still have to pay for arrows poisons, bards still have to pay for arrows (they do use them)..

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>Ok, your definition of minor might not match mine. So lets use an example of a ranger who just got his t7 summon arrows ability.</P> <P>A dragonhide quiver has 22 slots, this is 2078 arrows.</P> <P>Adamantine arrows from vendor at 6s 91c x 99 x 22 = 1p 50g 66s 18c to fill when completely empty at today's rate.</P> <P>Time to summon 2078 makeshift adamantine arrows at say, app IV because everyone doesn't have a master I, is 2078 / 30 x 10 minutes =approximately  11 hrs 50 minutes, if you NEVER miss the button when the ten minutes is up.  SAY YOU PLAY AN AVERAGE OF 4 HOURS A NIGHT, THIS WILL TAKE YOU THREE DAYS TO FILL UP YOUR DRAGONHIDE QUIVER.  This also means no arrow usage of any kind while you do so.</P> <P>Bounty skill only works on green or better creatures, and you have to be fighting while you use it.  It is unreasonable to throw this out as a way that rangers can recoup their cost.  Not without higher bounties at least!  (this doesn't work agains PC's in PvP BTW)</P> <P>The proposed changes will help rangers immensely inth their ammunition costs.  It won't eliminate it.</P>

[Likias]

<P>I already pay for my dps now as it is, but I dont see myself makin a big deal out of this even after it goes live.  I use so many arrows that I almost always use up my 16 slot quiver after 2 days of doing writs or solo questing.  Even with summoning arrows everytime I can, I still wind up buying arrows.  I dont really care that much about that obviously cuz I do it.  I also spend quite a bit on extra poisons of various types.  Guess I have to build up my WW and Alchy...sigh.  God I hate crafting...lol.  </P> <P>Anyway, I'm not going to be using as many arrows (or I think that's the point of this thread?) so the WW is gonna lose out if I dont have to buy arrows as much.  I really dont see why they're so happy about this change...lol.  So they're gonna wind up not makin as many and upping the price on the ones they DO make to keep up.  Which in turn will make it harder on those that HAVE to buy arrows now cuz the crafted ones are WAY better in the long run?  I dont know...maybe I'm just confused.  People can talk mechanics all they want.  I never understand anything that I dont see in front of me anyway.  So hopefully it'll work out for the best...<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Likias on <span class=date_text>02-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 PM</span>

[Teksun]

I really don't care what consumption will be like. It's a big step in the right direction, and it's actually something I've been suggesting forever...<div></div>

[Emperors]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Likias wrote:<BR> <P>I already pay for my dps now as it is, but I dont see myself makin a big deal out of this even after it goes live.  I use so many arrows that I almost always use up my 16 slot quiver after 2 days of doing writs or solo questing.  Even with summoning arrows everytime I can, I still wind up buying arrows.  I dont really care that much about that obviously cuz I do it.  I also spend quite a bit on extra poisons of various types.  Guess I have to build up my WW and Alchy...sigh.  God I hate crafting...lol.  </P> <P>Anyway, I'm not going to be using as many arrows (or I think that's the point of this thread?) <FONT color=#cc0033>so the WW is gonna lose out if I dont have to buy arrows as much.  I really dont see why they're so happy about this change...lol.  So they're gonna wind up not makin as many and upping the price on the ones they DO make to keep up</FONT>.  Which in turn will make it harder on those that HAVE to buy arrows now cuz the crafted ones are WAY better in the long run?  I dont know...maybe I'm just confused.  People can talk mechanics all they want.  I never understand anything that I dont see in front of me anyway.  So hopefully it'll work out for the best...<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Likias on <SPAN class=date_text>02-05-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The WW's are happy because they will be making the highest damage arrows that will be available to every Ranger with some cash.  Only people this won't affect are the few who have a T8 summon bow.  Because of this, all Raiders and some Group/Soloers will go to the WW for a little boost in DPS if they want to.

[afeather]

First off as a Ranger/Woodworker I think this is great news. (long overdue) However I have one concern. Could the change in arrows not being used with CA's effect the agility AA line critical hit skill? I kinda thought it processed only when an actual arrow hit the target. But I could be wrong. Could this change nerf that ability as a unintended side effect? Since less arrows are hiting the target? Anyone on test with that ability see any changes in the critical hit department?

[Arleonenis]

if price to craft 99 arrows will be same as for crafting 25 arrows atm and same amount of resources needed than im all for that change (4 times cheaper to craft), if it isnt what the point? (for those that dont know atm crafting arrows fuel cost is similar to those arrows bought from npc vendor and as a woodworker i could tell you honestly that i wouldnt bother with crafting arrows even for personal use if it will stay at that price range... and even adding small crafting fee to that price will made them insanely overpriced... without getting any sane amount of cash to woodworker in same time so what the point to either side?) to get some numbers lets say very generouse woodworker will add 5gp for combine, it is very low when you factor time wasted on harvesting and crafting, try to find some t7 jeweler that will craft item for 5gp that do that for profit<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> than your stack will cost like 11gp, so like 2.5pp for filling up dragonhide quiver, who can afford that for one raid? (with ammo consumption changes hardcore rangers will drop from 3-4k arrows to one (maybe less) quiver<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) if price will drop than it will be like 7gp top for a stack like 1.5pp for a quiver... still not very nice but doable for players to buy for raids and other high quality activities<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and will open up market for crafting arrows (not that i will craft more than for personal use and for guildmates anyway<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and yes i like a lot not using arrows on CAs - that part is best gift we rangers could get.. other than endless quiver or ammo summoning bow from epic heritage quest<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so idea is good if it will be implemented right (fuel costs)

[Arleonenis]

<cite>afeather wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off as a Ranger/Woodworker I think this is great news. (long overdue) However I have one concern. Could the change in arrows not being used with CA's effect the agility AA line critical hit skill? I kinda thought it processed only when an actual arrow hit the target. But I could be wrong. Could this change nerf that ability as a unintended side effect? Since less arrows are hiting the target? Anyone on test with that ability see any changes in the critical hit department? </blockquote> if its true this will be end of rangers as any kind of dps class... and a lot of [Removed for Content] peoples will either change for assassins or just drop this game for good... what the point of ranger if paladin is much better dps?

[Dragonsword]

<cite>Arleonenis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>afeather wrote:</cite><blockquote>First off as a Ranger/Woodworker I think this is great news. (long overdue) However I have one concern. Could the change in arrows not being used with CA's effect the agility AA line critical hit skill? I kinda thought it processed only when an actual arrow hit the target. But I could be wrong. Could this change nerf that ability as a unintended side effect? Since less arrows are hiting the target? Anyone on test with that ability see any changes in the critical hit department? </blockquote> if its true this will be end of rangers as any kind of dps class... and a lot of [Removed for Content] peoples will either change for assassins or just drop this game for good... what the point of ranger if paladin is much better dps? </blockquote><p>The Dev that posted the changes, stated that he played a ranger, I think if there was an issue like that it would be sorted out, the arrow would still be calculated its just that it wont actually consume ammunition for Ca's. No-one at the moment is complaining that we are over powered.</p><p>Points the nerf bat at Swashies. </p>