rangers raiding

[Taloseem]

<DIV>I've noticed that there seems to be a need for every single class in raids except rangers. I was thinking why aren't there mobs in game that having a single ranger in the raid would make easier to take down. Like some adds that are extra weak against thorny trap so where if the adds tripped that trap they would be caught in it for a solid 2 minutes or so and allow the raid to concentrate on the named; or a named that would be easier to kill thx to a ranger's debuff. I know we are basically a pure dps class but we sure wouldn't know it. I never see a guild recruiting rangers because there's no need. Even in my own guild i'm allowed to raid but i'm not really needed when you get down to it so it can be frustrating sometimes. Feels like you are just along for the ride.</DIV>

[Caliga]

What mobs must you have a...FuryWardenBeserkerPallySKDirgeWizardAssasin               to kill them?I know things like pets and fd are useful for a lot of raids.  But every single class has something that no one can offer that takes down the mob BUT rangers?  I don't wanna call you a big baby whiner, but my big baby whiner sign is blinking.<div></div>

[Taloseem]

How am i whining? I made a statement hoping to start a discussion where people would make suggestions along the lines of the examples I listed? You don't even know me and you're calling me a whiner? yo can't be serious with that list of classes you posted. I was talking about the usefulness of classes in raids...I didn't say anything about needed certain classes to kill certain mobs, i just based my own example on that. of the list of classes you posted guiilds are always looking for every class on that list for raiding to one extent o another with the exception of the tanks classes because you need less of those classes than any other. Have you ever seen a guild recruiting rangers actively for raiding? I've seen plenty of assassin recruiting but not once ever have I seen a guild recruiting rangers.

[Caliga]

You are the one who said there is a need for every single class but ranger.   And I didn't call you a whiner.  I just suspect it.  And no, I've never seen a raiding guild actively recruit rangers, but I've never really seen a raiding guild actively recruit anyone.  If they are that selective I doubt they are gonna be shouting out their needs in /ooc.  The funny thing is if you read the monk forums you will see monks talking about how they are useless in raids, same thing in the bard and chanter forums.  *shrug*  I don't know how dps is useless, what do you want exactly?<div></div>

[Nak]

<blockquote><hr>Taloseem wrote:<div>I've noticed that there seems to be a need for every single class in raids except rangers. I was thinking why aren't there mobs in game that having a single ranger in the raid would make easier to take down. Like some adds that are extra weak against thorny trap so where if the adds tripped that trap they would be caught in it for a solid 2 minutes or so and allow the raid to concentrate on the named; <i><b>or a named that would be easier to kill thx to a ranger's debuff.</b></i> I know we are basically a pure dps class but we sure wouldn't know it. I never see a guild recruiting rangers because there's no need. Even in my own guild i'm allowed to raid but i'm not really needed when you get down to it so it can be frustrating sometimes. Feels like you are just along for the ride.</div><hr></blockquote>I know for a fact that I am solely on my raid force in a strong raiding guild for the use of my debuffs...<div></div>

[Aljahb]

<div></div><div>hmm,</div><p>Message Edited by Aljahbar on <span class=date_text>01-29-2007</span> <span class=time_text>06:56 AM</span>

[jjlo69]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taloseem wrote:<BR> <DIV>I've noticed that there seems to be a need for every single class in raids except rangers. I was thinking why aren't there mobs in game that having a single ranger in the raid would make easier to take down. Like some adds that are extra weak against thorny trap so where if the adds tripped that trap they would be caught in it for a solid 2 minutes or so and allow the raid to concentrate on the named; or a named that would be easier to kill thx to a ranger's debuff. I know we are basically a pure dps class but we sure wouldn't know it. I never see a guild recruiting rangers because there's no need. Even in my own guild i'm allowed to raid but i'm not really needed when you get down to it so it can be frustrating sometimes. Feels like you are just along for the ride.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>well i dont know what guild you in and really dont care. But we have 2 rangers in our RAIDING guild and we kills raid mobs np and depending on group set up. both of us top the parser one single target or multi traget and are always in the top 5 zone wide maybe you need to recheck you gear/combat arts and play style in stead of putting crap like this up on the forums. and as far as feeling usless try playing a SK in raid if you really want to feel usless.</DIV>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jjlo69 wrote: <DIV>well i dont know what guild you in and really dont care. <STRONG>But we have 2 rangers in our RAIDING guild and we kills raid mobs np and depending on group set up. both of us top the parser one single target or multi traget and are always in the top 5 zone wide</STRONG> maybe you need to recheck you gear/combat arts and play style in stead of putting crap like this up on the forums. and as far as feeling usless try playing a SK in raid if you really want to feel usless.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I wasn't going to touch this thread and I'll probably hate myself in the morning...  You do know that where you fall on the parser is relative to your raid, right?  And that your position on the parser is not an indication of your true value to the raid force, right?  Also, you do unsderstand that SKs providing less value than than Rangers to a raid force does not make Rangers more valuable than all the other classes, right?</P> <P>Even if both your Rangers are parsing 1500 zone-wide.  Removing them from from the raid force would only amount to a reduction of 3k to the raid force's DPS.  If you replaced them with any other utility classes, such as a Dirge, Coercer, etc. (just about any non-healer class) your raid force's DPS could easily be increased to make-up the 3k loss with their buffs and de-buffs, plus get their own DPS to boot.  Any savy raid leader knows this.</P> <P>Believe what you want, but unless you are filling an otherwise empty raid slot, you are just along for the ride.<BR></P>

[Squigglle]

<DIV>well id say the thing rangers would be usefull for in raids would be like maybe they be a good help to keeping agro on the tank with trickshot, and they have alot of elemental attacks, where i think assasin got like poisen.</DIV>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> jjlo69 wrote: <div>well i dont know what guild you in and really dont care. <strong>But we have 2 rangers in our RAIDING guild and we kills raid mobs np and depending on group set up. both of us top the parser one single target or multi traget and are always in the top 5 zone wide</strong> maybe you need to recheck you gear/combat arts and play style in stead of putting crap like this up on the forums. and as far as feeling usless try playing a SK in raid if you really want to feel usless.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I wasn't going to touch this thread and I'll probably hate myself in the morning...  You do know that where you fall on the parser is relative to your raid, right?  And that your position on the parser is not an indication of your true value to the raid force, right?  Also, you do unsderstand that SKs providing less value than than Rangers to a raid force does not make Rangers more valuable than all the other classes, right?</p> <p>Even if both your Rangers are parsing 1500 zone-wide.  Removing them from from the raid force would only amount to a reduction of 3k to the raid force's DPS.  If you replaced them with any other utility classes, such as a Dirge, Coercer, etc. (just about any non-healer class) your raid force's DPS could easily be increased to make-up the 3k loss with their buffs and de-buffs, plus get their own DPS to boot.  Any savy raid leader knows this.</p> <p>Believe what you want, but unless you are filling an otherwise empty raid slot, you are just along for the ride.</p><hr></blockquote>QFE. This is true. We do damage and damage only and saddly there are some other classes out there that can do our damage and add more utility. So Gareorn is right but only in hardcore raiding guilds do you find this - where every spot matters. In most other raiding guilds, your ranger will do fine and always have a spot. Assassins are starting to fall in this boat as well in EoF. Our AA's brought us even to our assassin brothers and swashies have a hate transfer as well. And since swashies have a multitude of AoE attacks they end up transferring more hate to the MT in the mt group. There really is no use for the predator class with rogues spec'd the way they are. We are just there to look sexy.</div>

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bentgate wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jjlo69 wrote: <DIV>well i dont know what guild you in and really dont care. <STRONG>But we have 2 rangers in our RAIDING guild and we kills raid mobs np and depending on group set up. both of us top the parser one single target or multi traget and are always in the top 5 zone wide</STRONG> maybe you need to recheck you gear/combat arts and play style in stead of putting crap like this up on the forums. and as far as feeling usless try playing a SK in raid if you really want to feel usless.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I wasn't going to touch this thread and I'll probably hate myself in the morning...  You do know that where you fall on the parser is relative to your raid, right?  And that your position on the parser is not an indication of your true value to the raid force, right?  Also, you do unsderstand that SKs providing less value than than Rangers to a raid force does not make Rangers more valuable than all the other classes, right?</P> <P>Even if both your Rangers are parsing 1500 zone-wide.  Removing them from from the raid force would only amount to a reduction of 3k to the raid force's DPS.  If you replaced them with any other utility classes, such as a Dirge, Coercer, etc. (just about any non-healer class) your raid force's DPS could easily be increased to make-up the 3k loss with their buffs and de-buffs, plus get their own DPS to boot.  Any savy raid leader knows this.</P> <P>Believe what you want, but unless you are filling an otherwise empty raid slot, you are just along for the ride.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>QFE. This is true. We do damage and damage only and saddly there are some other classes out there that can do our damage and add more utility. So Gareorn is right but only in hardcore raiding guilds do you find this - where every spot matters. In most other raiding guilds, your ranger will do fine and always have a spot. Assassins are starting to fall in this boat as well in EoF. Our AA's brought us even to our assassin brothers and swashies have a hate transfer as well. And since swashies have a multitude of AoE attacks they end up transferring more hate to the MT in the mt group. There really is no use for the predator class with rogues spec'd the way they are. We are just there to look sexy.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Second dawn, possibly one of the most successful hardcore raid guilds in EoF run with 2 Rangers. I guess their raidleaders see a use for us. Does that make them less than savvy I wonder?</P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Second dawn, possibly one of the most successful hardcore raid guilds in EoF run with 2 Rangers. I guess their raidleaders see a use for us. Does that make them less than savvy I wonder?</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No one said that raid leaders who use Rangers was less savvy than those who don't, so your question doesn't make any sense.  And, can we leave the guild drama back on the server forums please.  SD is the best raid guild ever and we all wish we could be members too.:smileytongue:

[Teksun]

We do not bring anything unique to the raid. We don't bring anything that 'helps others' in a raid. We bring DPS and a very few debuffs that mean you need only one Ranger per raid. Every other class (it seems) you can use one per group and still have some benefit.Am I wrong? I haven't played every other class, so I give me examples if I'm wrong and I won't make an alt in that class.<div></div>

[Nak]

sometimes...just sometimes...ranged dps might be useful? sucky ranger < empty slot on a raid avg ranger = empty slot on a raid good ranger > empty slot on a raid excellet well skilled intelligent ranger that knows [I cannot control my vocabulary] he's doing with good gear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least 1 of the 24 other people on that raid and should make a spot for him over someone if your trying for a serious raid! <div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR>We do not bring anything unique to the raid. We don't bring anything that 'helps others' in a raid. We bring DPS and a very few debuffs that mean you need only one Ranger per raid. Every other class (it seems) you can use one per group and still have some benefit.<BR><BR>Am I wrong? I haven't played every other class, so I give me examples if I'm wrong and I won't make an alt in that class.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You arent wrong. We bring DPS (or at least we are supposed to). The only problem with that.. there are 3 other classes that are supposed to do the same thing. So rangers, assassins, wizzys and locks are all interchangable and easily replaced.</P> <P>As fair as having 1 per group.. I know it sounds nice to have a dirge/troub for every group, but unless you are in a min/max guild.. chances are, things arent that streamlined. You wouldnt want 4 brigands at a raid.. 1 or 2 will suffice. </P> <P>Basicly, any raid NEEDS.</P> <P>1MT, 1MA, 1 Templar, 1 Dirge, Several more Healers(4-6 depending).. any make or model will do, fill the rest of the spots with ppl to kill it. Shake well to optimize as best as possible, and go. </P>

[Mirdo]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Second dawn, possibly one of the most successful hardcore raid guilds in EoF run with 2 Rangers. I guess their raidleaders see a use for us. Does that make them less than savvy I wonder?</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No one said that raid leaders who use Rangers was less savvy than those who don't, so your question doesn't make any sense.  And, can we leave the guild drama back on the server forums please.  SD is the best raid guild ever and we all wish we could be members too.:smileytongue:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Your paragraph i was referring to implies that having a Ranger in a raid slot is effectively a waste as far a as a savvy raid leader is concerned. The corollary of that opinion is that a raid leader employing Rangers in a raid is less savvy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I didn't see any guild drama there unless some guilds/players might take offence at your somewhat bold (and inaccurate) statement that SD is the 'best raid guild ever'. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mirdo.</DIV>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Your paragraph i was referring to implies that having a Ranger in a raid slot is effectively a waste as far a as a savvy raid leader is concerned. The corollary of that opinion is that a raid leader employing Rangers in a raid is less savvy.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I didn't see any guild drama there unless some guilds/players might take offence at your somewhat bold (and inaccurate) statement that SD is the 'best raid guild ever'. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I did not imply that having a Ranger in a raid slot was a waste.  I implied that it is more effective to have another class other than a Ranger in a raid slot.  No more, no less.  You have to stretch that a looooong way to twist it into Rangers being a waste.  Look at who you are talking too here.  I'll probably be the last person that'll say Rangers are a waste.</P> <P>And, my statement about SD being the best guild ever was tongue-n-cheek.  Easily recognizable by the little tongue-n-cheek symbol at the end of the sentence.  I was responding to the qualifying statement at the begining of your post, "Second dawn, possibly one of the most successful hardcore raid guilds in EoF."  This is the one of the few forums people can still go to without having to sift through a bunch of SD drama.   I don't know what you were trying to stir up, but if I had just ignored your statement like everyone else did, we wouldn't be discussing it now.  My fault for feeding the bear.  I apologize to everyone.</P>

[Wades]

From my late experience, our dps is on par or lower than many DPS or semi-DPS classes. Our utility is close to zero (a death pull there, a miracle shot pull here). Group set up is important sure, but my rogue, summoner and sorcerer guildmates can achieve more dps with fewer buffs. On few ranged-fight encounters, Rangers can be usefull. But since you need to change raid set-ups often, classes with other talents than just-dps are much more important. Sure you can have one or two slots for rangers but one is more than enough.Add us some dps self buff maybe so we can go into a 'mage' group with an illusionist with the fake excuse of the de-aggro birdie... Remove 20 haste and add 50 dps maybe to our 'class' buff (Cloak of the forest)... good dps mod, nice haste, some str, large int buff, 25% to double attack buff... you may achieve1k8 2k dps... of course with the right rare bows and ammunitions (good news fable arrows are dropping in EH, 4 by 4, once or twice ... 6 arrows per EH * 5 days ... 2 months and a half for a stack...)...<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wades wrote:<BR>From my late experience, our dps is on par or lower than many DPS or semi-DPS classes. Our utility is close to zero (a death pull there, a miracle shot pull here). Group set up is important sure, but my rogue, summoner and sorcerer guildmates can achieve more dps with fewer buffs. <BR><BR>On few ranged-fight encounters, Rangers can be usefull. But since you need to change raid set-ups often, classes with other talents than just-dps are much more important. Sure you can have one or two slots for rangers but one is more than enough.<BR><BR>Add us some dps self buff maybe so we can go into a 'mage' group with an illusionist with the fake excuse of the de-aggro birdie... Remove 20 haste and add 50 dps maybe to our 'class' buff (Cloak of the forest)... good dps mod, nice haste, some str, large int buff, 25% to double attack buff... <FONT color=#ff0000>you may</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>achieve1k8 2k dps</FONT>... of course with the right rare bows and ammunitions (good news fable arrows are dropping in EH, 4 by 4, once or twice ... 6 arrows per EH * 5 days ... 2 months and a half for a stack...)...<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Im sorry, but 1.8-2k DPS is pretty easy to hit for a ranger with a half decent bow, t8 ammo. Thats without a good group set up, without changing anything you mentioned. I just hate it when ppl come in and start talking about changes that need to be made to the ranger class, because "THEY" arent doing the DPS they should. For what ever reason. Lack of a bow, lack of t8 ammo, bad gear... Im sorry, but it just irritates me to no end.<BR>

[jjlo69]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naku9 wrote:<BR>sometimes...just sometimes...ranged dps might be useful?<BR><BR>sucky ranger < empty slot on a raid<BR>avg ranger = empty slot on a raid<BR>good ranger > empty slot on a raid<BR><FONT color=#006600>excellet well skilled intelligent ranger that knows [I cannot control my vocabulary] he's doing with good gear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least 1 of the 24 other people on that raid and should make a spot for him over someone if your trying for a serious raid!<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>for once i agree with coah on this and fyi mine and marcuz's zone parses are a lil higher then 1500 zone wide and fall in to the the green text area</DIV>

[Wades]

<div><div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote: Im sorry, but 1.8-2k DPS is pretty easy to hit for a ranger with a half decent bow, t8 ammo. Thats without a good group set up, without changing anything you mentioned. I just hate it when ppl come in and start talking about changes that need to be made to the ranger class, because "THEY" arent doing the DPS they should. For what ever reason. Lack of a bow, lack of t8 ammo, bad gear... Im sorry, but it just irritates me to no end.<hr></blockquote>I am not talking about a 30 seconds encounter where you can release hell on a group of poor mobs. I am not interested in raid wide dps anyone can have a break from time to time. I am focusing on named encounters where my scout guildmates with more utility than me gets into 'tactical set-up groups' where they provide for example hate transfer and end up with nice buffs. Where my mages friends can use their full potentials like life or manaburn. Without a ranger oriented and/or centered group set-up, you can't sustain a good dps on a 8+ minutes encounter. Anyhow the problem is Rangers won't be allowed to have a better dps because that's all they provide. All other scouts and mages classes are close to us and with this item or that buff can outdps us easily. If I have to lead a raid I ll take a wizard over a ranger anytime.</div></div>

[Mirdo]

<P> </P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Your paragraph i was referring to implies that having a Ranger in a raid slot is effectively a waste as far a as a savvy raid leader is concerned. The corollary of that opinion is that a raid leader employing Rangers in a raid is less savvy.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I didn't see any guild drama there unless some guilds/players might take offence at your somewhat bold (and inaccurate) statement that SD is the 'best raid guild ever'. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I did not imply that having a Ranger in a raid slot was a waste.  I implied that it is more effective to have another class other than a Ranger in a raid slot.  No more, no less.  You have to stretch that a looooong way to twist it into Rangers being a waste.  Look at who you are talking too here.  I'll probably be the last person that'll say Rangers are a waste.</P> <P>And, my statement about SD being the best guild ever was tongue-n-cheek.  Easily recognizable by the little tongue-n-cheek symbol at the end of the sentence.  I was responding to the qualifying statement at the begining of your post, "Second dawn, possibly one of the most successful hardcore raid guilds in EoF."  This is the one of the few forums people can still go to without having to sift through a bunch of SD drama.   I don't know what you were trying to stir up, but if I had just ignored your statement like everyone else did, we wouldn't be discussing it now.  My fault for feeding the bear.  I apologize to everyone.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't find it a loooong way to obtain that meaning from your post. Then again, I'm a glass is half empty kind of person.</P> <P><BR>I was trying to stir up nothing - you made that (again) incorrect assumption all on your own. You seem to be the only person that bothered commenting on it or found it offensive. You are perpetuating this, I'll just respond every time you make another assumption about my motivations to point out where you are wrong.</P> <P>Keep feeding the bear - every time you post like that you are - amazing logic. Keep it up, I'm bored at work and it's something to pass the time.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P><p>Message Edited by Mirdo on <span class=date_text>02-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:14 PM</span>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wades wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR><BR>Im sorry, but 1.8-2k DPS is pretty easy to hit for a ranger with a half decent bow, t8 ammo. Thats without a good group set up, without changing anything you mentioned. I just hate it when ppl come in and start talking about changes that need to be made to the ranger class, because "THEY" arent doing the DPS they should. For what ever reason. Lack of a bow, lack of t8 ammo, bad gear... Im sorry, but it just irritates me to no end.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000>I am not talking about a 30 seconds encounter where you can release hell on a group of poor mobs</FONT>. I am not interested in raid wide dps anyone can have a break from time to time. <BR>I am focusing on named encounters where my scout guildmates with more utility than me gets into 'tactical set-up groups' where they provide for example hate transfer and end up with nice buffs. Where my mages friends can use their full potentials like life or manaburn. Without a ranger oriented and/or centered group set-up, you can't sustain a good dps on a 8+ minutes encounter. <BR><BR>Anyhow the problem is Rangers won't be allowed to have a better dps because that's all they provide. All other scouts and mages classes are close to us and with this item or that buff can outdps us easily. If I have to lead a raid I ll take a wizard over a ranger anytime.<BR></DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Neither was I. I can easily show you a 2m + fight on a named encounter thats close to 2.4K DPS. And Im sure there are several other rangers here that could also show you things like that. Im sure most of those rangers could also show you zonewides of 1.6K or better. </P> <P>As for 8m+ fights? Ummm who? what? What fight are you doing thats taking 8m?</P> <P>The problem isnt that rangers wont be allowed to have more DPS... because..... hold on.... wait for it.....</P> <P>Yes thats right, because we can already do a great deal of DPS.</P>

[Wades]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<blockquote>As for 8m+ fights? Ummm who? what? What fight are you doing thats taking 8m? </blockquote><p>The problem isnt that rangers wont be allowed to have more DPS... because..... hold on.... wait for it.....</p> <p>Yes thats right, because we can already do a great deal of DPS.</p><hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>8m+ encounters ? Inner Sanctum: 2xBlood Colossus, Mayong, EH: Tender, Prince Thirneg, Chel'Drak with many warriors pops, Matrone w/2 first nameds... Malkonis, Treyloth, Clockwork ring event...</div>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>Just an aside here, but Terriblades made a point of saying something about a half decent bow and t8 ammo. Now I haven't had the luck of seeing a bow that produces t8 ammo yet.  Being on a PvP server, we are slightly less oriented to PvE, so we are still looking for the better items.  My question is what is the percentage of rangers with these items compared to the rangers without?  </P> <P>Is it 5%?  10%?  50%?  Its all well and fine to talk about how being a better equipped ranger will net more damage, but this is a given.  You have to take into consideration where an individual ranger falls into the total of all rangers before judging them.  </P> <P>sucky ranger < empty slot on a raid  50%<BR>avg ranger = empty slot on a raid      20%<BR>good ranger > empty slot on a raid    15%<BR><FONT color=#006600>excellent well-skilled intelligent ranger that knows what he's doing with <STRONG><U>"good gear"</U></STRONG> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least <STRONG><U>1</U></STRONG> of the 23 other people on that raid and should have a spot for him over someone who isn't, if your trying for a serious raid! </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>5%</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>and I have no idea of these exact percentages, just showing an example.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Badaxe Bart on <SPAN class=date_text>02-02-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:32 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Badaxe Bart on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:36 AM</span>

[panther55]

I have no doub that a ranger with t8 ammo and a fabled bow can throw down great dps numbers. The issue is that a swash/brig/[I cannot control my vocabulary]/wiz/war can throw down big numbers without relying on ridiculously rare fabled drops to do it.<div></div>

[panther55]

Lol it bleeped out our predator brothers abbreviation.<div></div>

[Zholain]

<div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">panther553212 wrote:Lol it bleeped out our predator brothers abbreviation.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote><font size="2">Well, if there were ever any doubt that our evil brethren were profane we can honestly say that question has been answered.</font></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wades wrote: <DIV>8m+ encounters ? Inner Sanctum: 2xBlood Colossus, Mayong, EH: Tender, Prince Thirneg, Chel'Drak with many warriors pops, Matrone w/2 first nameds... Malkonis, Treyloth, Clockwork ring event...<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So are you killing all of these? or just talking out your [I cannot control my vocabulary]? Cause its seems to me, if you are capable of killing the above mentioned mobs, then I would suspect you have the gear already that would prove that rangers and DPS go hand in hand. And thus, we wouldnt be butting heads about how you cant seem to beat this class or that class. Feel free to PM me with your toons name and server. I'd be interested in checking out your gear.. you know.. with all those tough 8m encounters your fighting.</P> <P>And for the record, on 8m fights, Id expect just about everyone to get smoked by pet classes here. <BR></P> <P>Edit: Im a nub that cant speel.. proof reading ftw!</P><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class=date_text>02-02-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:27 PM</span>

[Starwindz]

HAHA, Well said i was thinking the same thing<div></div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wades wrote: <DIV>8m+ encounters ? Inner Sanctum: 2xBlood Colossus, Mayong, EH: Tender, Prince Thirneg, Chel'Drak with many warriors pops, Matrone w/2 first nameds... Malkonis, Treyloth, Clockwork ring event...<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So are you killing all of these? or just talking out your [I cannot control my vocabulary]? Cause its seems to me, if you are capable of killing the above mentioned mobs, then I would suspect you have the gear already that would prove that rangers and DPS go hand in hand. And thus, we wouldnt be butting heads about how you cant seem to beat this class or that class. Feel free to PM me with your toons name and server. I'd be interested in checking out your gear.. you know.. with all those tough 8m encounters your fighting.</P> <P>And for the record, on 8m fights, Id expect just about everyone to get smoked by pet classes here. <BR></P> <P>Edit: Im a nub that cant speel.. proof reading ftw!</P> <P>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <SPAN class=date_text>02-02-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:27 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, in my experience, rangers' dps is near the top on very short multiple mob fights or on very long fights.</P> <P>Very short multi-mob fights:  Natural Selection and Rain of Arrows will put us easily very high on the dps listing.</P> <P>Very long fights:  Rangers will rise to the top simply because so much of our dps comes from ranged autoattack.  While other classes run out of power and see their dps decline, ours can maintain at high levels.</P> <P>Lastly, this is a very curious mixture of mobs.  Some of them don't have all that many HPs, relatively speaking.  Further, some of them aren't encounters where you even want to try to have the "highest" dps...at least not throughout the entire encounter.  In fact, now that I've just looked at that list again, I can virtually guarantee that I'll be #1 or #2 on at least three or four of the encounters.  On a few of them, I can virtually guarantee that I will barely make the top 5...because I'll have other priorities or I'll be doing things in ways that limit my dps potential.</P> <P>More than in past expansions, EoF has created encounters that result in more variation in the top dps lists.  In DoF, rangers were always #1 on the list.  In KoS, assassins were always #1 on the list.  In EoF, the top of the list bounces around quite a bit.  But rest assured, rangers appear at or near the top regularly enough that we can be legitimately labled "tier 1 dps".</P> <P>Now whether our appearance on top of the dps charts occurs often enough that some guilds would want a ranger on a raid vs. another brigand, swashy, or assassin is a question that only those guilds can answer.  Clearly, some guilds think they can get more "bang for the buck" by having, say, another brigand than having a ranger.  Other guilds don't do the calculus the same way.</P>

[Dragonsword]

<p>Ive been on every Guild Raid ive been available for, I may not parse the top but I know my Guild wants, and needs me there. I have debuff's, miracle shot, and several other things going for me. That goes without having some of the buffs placed on me that usually are spent on other classes. I dont expect to out DPS our swashy who is in the MT group for Hate transfer. Occasionally even my trap comes in handy.</p><p>I think there are a few issues that need to be dealt with, as far as nerf's we received due to PVP, plus with the attention we are getting update 32 with arrows, we will see more of increase with our DPS if your willing to spend extra on arrows, which if you raid will be cheaper anyway.</p>

[Mono]

<p>Well personally i think Rangers are the Hardest class to master in EQ2 and very misunderstood. I've been Raiding for a long time now and whilst i am lucky to have T8 ammo i still think we do a good job in raids.</p><p>I think fundementally Rangers quite often can help/advise in raids due to being able to see what exactly has gone on as we're easily the most ranged out of the classes. </p><p> I don't have to worry/bother healers as i never melee prefer to auto attack personally, so i can avoid alot of aoe's unlike brigs swashy's and assasins. Rangers Lay down good dps and i don't see why people should think they should be top dps all the time. i've never liked parse not because i struggle to top it but because people forget who you are as a person and what YOU personally could or can provide to a raid. I know an awful lot of RAID LEADER rangers. </p><p>We don't provide many buffs this is true but our bows do proc our poisons if used correctly do damage as well as debuff and some of our CA's are useful.</p><p> I can quite often pull aggro off a healer who's got a problem add on them take it back to the MT and use elude...</p><p>And lastly i think people are missing the true spirit of the game. Personally i think we could disagree about alot of things but as a person i have friends who raid and Rangers can provide steady/high dps and its also about the individual behind the player. </p><p>There are alot of new rangers who have still to master delay / autoattack focus aim etc. I know one lvl 70 raid ranger who didn't even have honed reflexes lvl 30 bloodlines spell.</p><p>As for those who dis rangers i'd like to see you play one and parse effectively. Rangers get a rough RIDE raid wise we have to rely on rare bows and have high Costs.. if anything if you have a Raid ranger who turns up on time he deserves a spot just for the ingame issues such as ammo costs and all the crap people give them.</p><p> I love my ranger so i'm bias. If a raid doesn't want to use a ranger then i don't want to raid with them. And lastly Matron Chel,drek and Tari are great fights for Ranges imo. I often help in the add grp on tari with a necro wizzy paly etc. As for Chel Shhh its a secret lol and Matron we'll anyone who's fought matron will know adds are a pain and we don't have to run in and out like assasins/ brigs/ swashy's etc. Not to mention the 2nd Epic in that fight is a ranged fight.</p>

[Ranvarenaya]

If you have 2 dps groups set up like this: Group 1: Inq Dirge Coercer Brig x3 Group 2: Fury Troub Wiz Necro Assassin Ranger and the ranger is 1st or 2nd on the zonewide, that ranger will always have a spot.  Sure, our dps is gear dependant, and a little more than other classes, but we can hold our own with equivalent gear.  Individual dps is dependant on raid setup and raid dps, but that can also work in our favor.  We don't need to do 3k, we just need to beat the other dps to justify our spot.  Our utility is low in terms of buffs and debuffs, but we don't get aggro, don't die to ae, and can continue to put good damage on the mob when other classes are out of power or out of range because of an ae.

[Ranja]

Wow I would like to be in that brig group<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> DPS buff out the wazoo<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Lesca]

<p>Mono is right. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Getting the most out of a Ranger isn't easy, especially in a raid setting. We do have to work at it, and gear / group setup is important for us. I was lucky enough to have both a Coercer and a Dirge in my group the other week, and my DPS was off the chart. Next raid I was in a different group and was beaten by the Assassins. Swings and roundabouts. Sometimes you top the parse, sometimes you don't. Some zones are good for us, others... Not so good. We work with it.</p><p>Mix / Max Guilds will certainly always try and squeeze every last possible ounce of DPS from players, and will build their raids around doing exactly that. But personally I see no reason to not include a Ranger, unless they spend the entire raid sitting at ZI and AFK. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But think about this: I raided through all of DoF (Courts, Gates, the lot), and the only piece of gear that dropped for my class was the Earthen Band from Gardener. No chain armour except for Bard. No DW weapons. No bows. And you know when I got that ring? A week before KoS came out. Raiding Rangers are in a lot better position gear wise now than we were back then. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As a sidenote to what he said, I'm one of my Guild's Raid Leaders, and I'm also the regular MA. A Ranger is in an ideal position to see exactly what's going on all around them, see who's pulling aggro where they shouldn't (and spank them) and DPS at the same time.</p>

[Marcuzs]

<cite>Ranvarenaya wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you have 2 dps groups set up like this: Group 1: Inq Dirge Coercer Brig x3 Group 2: Fury Troub Wiz Necro Assassin Ranger and the ranger is 1st or 2nd on the zonewide, that ranger will always have a spot.  Sure, our dps is gear dependant, and a little more than other classes, but we can hold our own with equivalent gear.  Individual dps is dependant on raid setup and raid dps, but that can also work in our favor.  We don't need to do 3k, we just need to beat the other dps to justify our spot.  Our utility is low in terms of buffs and debuffs, but we don't get aggro, don't die to ae, and can continue to put good damage on the mob when other classes are out of power or out of range because of an ae. </blockquote>That group sucks for a Ranger. Deffinetely switch the Ranger with one of the Brigands and you would be better off. As for everything else said, I just don't have the desire to get into it. I couldn't get kicked from a raid if I tried, so as far as I'm concerned none of this matters for me since I'll be raiding regardless.

[Starwindz]

Think we were raiding MMIS and my group make up had a mastered out dirge and illusionist and a templar. With the illusionist i had 136 haste selfbuffed with her legion spell or something that adds 10 percent to double attack plus the drige increase to procs and the templar aa line buff that gives 25 percent to procs. With Bazkul/t8 ammo i was doing some pretty isane dps and topped the zone parse easily. Im sure theres better but i thought that was a pretty sick grp for a ranger.