Whattya guys think? Any hope for a ranger adjustment? realistic or not?

[dancer]

<DIV>i know this gets beaten to death probbaly close to daily, whether its here on the boards or not.  Why are classes like brigands out dps'ing rangers fairly consistantly?  Brigands are brought to raids to debuff, rangers are brought to dps... why are they doing both and we're barely doing our job?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/another [Removed for Content] off ranger because he cant get his place on the parse against classes that shouldnt be out parsing him.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>one parse, sure.. theres tons of variables.. but when it happens more often than not.  I call bbbbbsssssss</DIV>

[Caliga]

Hmmm...I haven't noticed.  *Thanks Brell there are no high level brigands in her guild*<div></div>

[Teksun]

We did Labs last night. All night parse order was:AssassinConjurorGuardianMonkRanger (me)/sighI thought I brought my 'A' game <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[pseudocide]

the devs in this game have a good record of balancing classes (compared with other MMOs), i'm sure they see the problems rangers have, the question is how long will it take them to fix them and how much help it will be in the real world (of norrath).

[nirav21]

<P>Last time i heared was on dev chat logs, that they know what most problems are but they are extremely bussy in maintenance and other stuff.</P> <P>Personally, i think they are all playing vanguard :smileyindifferent:</P>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>There is only one thing broken with the ranger class, arrow consumtion..thats it. Our dps is teir 1 and its mostly based on skill...ask anybody from a high end raiding guild how well their rangers perform and they will say top notch..Im in Second Dawn and we carry two just because we own so much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am on the top of the parse for every boss in TFD and two out of the three KoS contested mobs and almost every boss in Eof both our rangers are either 1-4 on the parse..on big bosses you can bet we are in the top two.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are not unbalanced from assassins..we do about the same damage as they do without the risk of always being in the fray and jousting thats awsome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Okay here is the constructive part of the post. I will help you maximze your dps, as long as I collect the following information ( group buffs help but you can dps great with the crappiest of groups jsut gotta know what they can give you)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Average raid group set up:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is your bow:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you have Focus Aim M1 or M2:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Double Attack:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Extension:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you "sit of 5" ( stay 5 meters away to make sure you get all your melee CAs and when you joust out from aes and back in do you go back to 5):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you use T7 crafted rings:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is your Ranged skill at:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Answer these and I can help you tune up your ranger to be top dps, even if you don't have half of these you can geta dps increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV> <DIV>Ranger 70</DIV> <DIV>Second Dawn</DIV>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<P>usually in raids our parsers look like this,</P> <P>1.Brigand</P> <P>2.Ranger</P> <P>3.Ranger or Wiz</P> <P>4.ranger ,wiz,warlock</P> <P>With the brigand parsing 1900 dps ish usually.</P>

[nirav21]

<P>I agree with you, but this is what bothers me. Is that it takes tremendous skill( and i mean a lot of skill and spell knowledge)  and also gear(bows T7, T8 arrows) to maximize dps as Ranger. Assasins = 0 skill to do T1 dps.</P> <P>Ironically this is also what i like about the challenge of Ranger class.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class=date_text>01-20-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:51 PM</span>

[dancer]

well as for .. us not being broken.. then why is a utility class outdps'ing me fairly often?  i knwo your the greatest ranger to grace the earth but.  This is my 2nd ranger ive taken to level 70.  One here, one on a pvp server.  I'm also part of one of the two guilds competiting for the "premier" tag on our server.  Add in the fact that ive played since the day of launch id have to say i have a pretty good handle on the class......

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aroumon wrote:<BR> <DIV>There is only one thing broken with the ranger class, arrow consumtion..thats it. Our dps is teir 1 and its mostly based on skill...ask anybody from a high end raiding guild how well their rangers perform and they will say top notch..Im in Second Dawn and we carry two just because we own so much.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, two things are broken not one.  You just don't recognize one because your not affected by it.  Itemization is also broke.  And you seemed to have confused that with skill.</P> <P> Your DPS is higher than some others only because you are in a raiding guild, which provides you the tools to be better.  You have a nice group set up almost every raid and you have the high end items that are only available to those in high end raiding guilds.</P> <P>You are not in a raiding guild because you provide great DPS, you provide great DPS because you are in a raiding guild.<BR></P>

[Nulad]

So we can get consistant T1 DPS without needing a rare bow?<div></div>

[Torrin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Aroumon wrote: <div>There is only one thing broken with the ranger class, arrow consumtion..thats it. Our dps is teir 1 and its mostly based on skill...ask anybody from a high end raiding guild how well their rangers perform and they will say top notch..Im in Second Dawn and we carry two just because we own so much.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Actually, two things are broken not one.  You just don't recognize one because your not affected by it.  Itemization is also broke.  And you seemed to have confused that with skill.</p> <p> Your DPS is higher than some others only because you are in a raiding guild, which provides you the tools to be better.  You have a nice group set up almost every raid and you have the high end items that are only available to those in high end raiding guilds.</p> <p>You are not in a raiding guild because you provide great DPS, you provide great DPS because you are in a raiding guild.</p><hr></blockquote>I agree with this statement.Myself am in the furthest progressed raid guild on a pvp server.  I have nice gear and mostly Masterd out.  Yet I get out parsed constantly by classes that simply should not be outparsing me.  For instance last night was helping a group doing some lower level x2 mobs. we had 1 group, 2 rangers (me 70, other 60ish), 2 Furies (68 & 70), 1 paladin (70), 1 Mystic (70).  I was losing every parse to the Furies, on top of their spot healing for the Paladin.  I had everything going.. Focus Aim, Killing Instinct, Honed Reflexes, Offensive stance, Caustic Poison, Str potion, Marr Diety pet up.. and was consistantly beaten on the parse by 200-500 dps.  I'd like someone to explain that one to me.  Yeah for a ranger to do top notch means having T7 raid bows including EoF bows and T8 Ammo.. but my gear compared to all those in my group was far far better.  All fabled with 2 pieces of PvP set (which is better than KoS Relic).. stand alone 75 haste mod buffed was around 130%+ and dps around 125%.  yet I was getting out parsed. even when using every big hit I had; Sniper Shot, Veiled Fire, Selection, RoA, Devitalize, Ranger Blade, Mortal Reminder (DoT), Emberflames.. I still could just barely beat the furies and I'm talking barely as in < 100dps ahead.  On our raids it's usually:ConjConjMT SwashIllusionistWarlockRangerMT MonkRangersometimes the better geared ranger in the guild gets up in the 1-4 bracket but not consistantly.  and he's got a 90+DR bow with a proc and full fabled.  </div>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>I didn't have a 90+ DR bow until EoF hit, before that I was using Darkfury Longbow a t6 fabled bow with a 78 DR and still was doing good dps gear does help yes...but you can't play the same if you have a 78 dr bow and a 90+ dr bow...what you do with a crappy bow to get dps is alot diffrent than what you do with a 90+ DR bow..its mostly skill..trust me..and nobody ansered my questions so I can't really help you then can I?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There should be a better selection of bows in game. I dont believe they should be 100+ damage ratings, I dont believe they should be end game bows, but they should be better then common bows. </P> <P>With that being said, EoF did bring us a few new bows, and thats a step in the right direction. However if you arent capable of killing venekor, amorphous drake and or tarinax(since the nerf, I imagine anyone can kill this chump now), do you really feel you deserve a better bow? For those that can kill the above mentioned, playing the waiting game for a bow to drop can be a realy PITA. Trust me I know all about the woes of being a ranger without a great bow. Everyone and thier mom could out dps you. However, once you have that bow, you slingshot back to the top of the list.</P> <P>I'll be one of the first to say that there is nothing wrong with ranger dps, if the ranger has the right gear. </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div> <blockquote> <p>There should be a better selection of bows in game. I dont believe they should be 100+ damage ratings, I dont believe they should be end game bows, but they should be better then common bows. </p> <p>With that being said, EoF did bring us a few new bows, and thats a step in the right direction. However if you arent capable of killing venekor, amorphous drake and or tarinax(since the nerf, I imagine anyone can kill this chump now), do you really feel you deserve a better bow? For those that can kill the above mentioned, playing the waiting game for a bow to drop can be a realy PITA. Trust me I know all about the woes of being a ranger without a great bow. Everyone and thier mom could out dps you. However, once you have that bow, you slingshot back to the top of the list.</p> <p>I'll be one of the first to say that there is nothing wrong with ranger dps, if the ranger has the right gear. </p></blockquote></div><hr>But the entire class being balanced due to a very small percentage of top end Rangers who are lucky enough to see these bows that put them back at the top of the DPS pile? That just doesnt sound right to me. </blockquote></div>

[kartikeya]

<P>Agreed with what most people are saying. The two problems are this: Ammo consumption and itemization.</P> <P>I am not in a raiding guild, however, I do raid constantly with a Tarinax/Venekor capable guild. When they first started out, I rode the top of the DPS list, just behind the other (better geared) ranger. As more and more of the guild became fabled, however, I steadily dropped, and dropped, and dropped on the DPS charts. By the time Labs was on farm status, the Necromancer and brigand were consistently hitting the top of the list. Now, it's a struggle just to <EM>make</EM> the list at all.</P> <P>There needs to be something between Grizzlfazzles/Rain Caller and the endgame 100+ DR bows. Wurm Destroyer is a joke. Right now both I and the other ranger are using Rain Caller (he finally got his hands on Ichorstrand at least). The fact that we're using a T6 fabled bow until we can get THE best bows in the game, with nothing in between, is really screwed up.</P>

[Gerdos]

<P>There's 6 fabled longbows b/w the Raincaller and 100+ bows.</P> <P>Raincaller > Darkfury > Bazkul >  2x cube bows > 2x EH bows >>>  (100+) Sarnak > Corruption > Star Darkened</P> <P>Goodluck.</P> <P>(edited to add Darkfury)</P><p>Message Edited by Gerdos on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nuladen wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But the entire class being balanced due to a very small percentage of top end Rangers who are lucky enough to see these bows that put them back at the top of the DPS pile? That just doesnt sound right to me.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The entire end game is balance that way. Raiding rangers can compete with other raiding classes and be very successful at their jobs. The biggest problem was that in KoS, there were only 2 bows that would allow for that. Venekor and Tarinax. If you're fighting Tarinax that you would have been doing end game stuff. If you were killing Venekor, you were prolly capable of having DT access. The real problem is that even if you're killing both of those mobs every week, you're still very unlikely to see either bow. Then FD came out, and we found there to be another bow of Matron. How many ppl are really going to see that bow? 1 or 2 guilds per server?</P> <P>We have already seen at least 2? new good bows in EoF? Problem with that? If you cant kill the KoS mobs, you'll prolly never see that either. However, it would seem that the likelyhood of seeing a bow in EoF is greater, if you can handle the content.</P> <P>I did say in my previous post there should be other bows available. Midgrade bows if you will. I dont think a raid ranger killing the hardest mobs in the game should have to worry about being outdps'ed by the ranger that hasnt been able to clear KoS. The gap shouldnt be as large as it is, but there should be a gap. Otherwise, what would be the point? There are alot of great ppl here, that raid often, that either waited forever to get there high end bow, or still havent gotten one. It sucks, it must have taken 3 months of killing Venekor before Sarnak dropped for us. I still dont think we've seen Bazkul, and if memory serves me right, only 1 Ichorstrand. I think alot of rangers have paid their dues for their bows.</P> <P>The bottom line is, Rangers dont need adjustments, the itemization needs to be looked at. The gear thats dropping should prolly be looked at, the rate at which the gear drops should prolly be looked at, but rangers themselves are okay. And like it or not, there are some players out there, that even with the best gear, that will still suck. Its usually not about skill, its usually about gear, but there is a small percentage of players that just cant get a handle on how to play their toons. The way I see it, folks have to fall into one or the other. So if you have great gear and still cant make it to the top of the parse, ya might wanna start looking at the other reason you cant make it to the top.</P>

[Gnome mercy]

Honestly, quick and simple fix, let our poisons proc multiple times on the same CA, I loved the old days when i could shoot off autoattack then launch triple shot and the ^^^ heroic mob was halfway health thanks to all the procs that went off

[TerriBlades]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gnome mercy wrote:<BR> Honestly, quick and simple fix, let our poisons proc multiple times on the same CA, I loved the old days when i could shoot off autoattack then launch triple shot and the ^^^ heroic mob was halfway health thanks to all the procs that went off<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You certainly wouldnt hear agruements from me on the subject. I fully support that. If we have to consume 3 arrows for our Triple Shot, we should get 3 checks for procs. The problem with that in the past was that our proc rates were so much higher then everyone elses due to the fact it was based off weapon speeds. With everything being "normalized", our mulitshots should each have a chance to proc. Like I said, if we can use 3 arrows out of our quiver.. and have the potential to miss, we should also have the procs back!</P>

[Merkad]

I am going to concur with Gareorn primarily, though, like Aroumon said, I do think skill plays a large part of it, and like TerriBlades said, I think some people are just not at the top of their game skillwise (too many actually).I would like to see more bows with the 80-90DR range.. iirc only the Sinew Wrapped Longbow is in the 80s, and that only because it was lowered along with most other gear. Aside from that.. I guess I can't complain, as EoF appears to be adressing my concerns with drops on bows (though aside from raid ones, no 80-90DR ones). Like some others, I spent all of KoS with a Grizzfazzle and t7 ammo, and it can be rough when you are not getting upgrades outside of Masters, though honestly, even with those I still parsed decently enough (granted, no where close to where I do today). High end Rangers are fine, perhaps (so I read) a few classes parse better than they should (I don't know, as only one person in my guild is currently giving me any sort of challenge (our Conjuror, who I guess counts <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )), I know that I have not failed to come in first on the zone wide since I got my ASWB (with Bazkul for ammo), and usually by a fair amount. Since I am on Najena with Second Dawn, I can't claim to be the best (honestly not second or even third, probably fourth or fifth though) guild on the server, but I would like to think we are able enough.This said, it just means one thing, it is not a Ranger adjustment that is needed, just itemization and ammo consumption for mid grade Rangers (weapon quality, not skill/level et cetera).Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.<div></div>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Nuladen wrote: <div> <blockquote> <p>But the entire class being balanced due to a very small percentage of top end Rangers who are lucky enough to see these bows that put them back at the top of the DPS pile? That just doesnt sound right to me.</p></blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>The entire end game is balance that way. Raiding rangers can compete with other raiding classes and be very successful at their jobs. The biggest problem was that in KoS, there were only 2 bows that would allow for that. Venekor and Tarinax. If you're fighting Tarinax that you would have been doing end game stuff. If you were killing Venekor, you were prolly capable of having DT access. The real problem is that even if you're killing both of those mobs every week, you're still very unlikely to see either bow. Then FD came out, and we found there to be another bow of Matron. How many ppl are really going to see that bow? 1 or 2 guilds per server?</p> <p>We have already seen at least 2? new good bows in EoF? Problem with that? If you cant kill the KoS mobs, you'll prolly never see that either. However, it would seem that the likelyhood of seeing a bow in EoF is greater, if you can handle the content.</p> <p>I did say in my previous post there should be other bows available. Midgrade bows if you will. I dont think a raid ranger killing the hardest mobs in the game should have to worry about being outdps'ed by the ranger that hasnt been able to clear KoS. The gap shouldnt be as large as it is, but there should be a gap. Otherwise, what would be the point? There are alot of great ppl here, that raid often, that either waited forever to get there high end bow, or still havent gotten one. It sucks, it must have taken 3 months of killing Venekor before Sarnak dropped for us. I still dont think we've seen Bazkul, and if memory serves me right, only 1 Ichorstrand. I think alot of rangers have paid their dues for their bows.</p> <p>The bottom line is, Rangers dont need adjustments, the itemization needs to be looked at. The gear thats dropping should prolly be looked at, the rate at which the gear drops should prolly be looked at, but rangers themselves are okay. And like it or not, there are some players out there, that even with the best gear, that will still suck. Its usually not about skill, its usually about gear, but there is a small percentage of players that just cant get a handle on how to play their toons. The way I see it, folks have to fall into one or the other. So if you have great gear and still cant make it to the top of the parse, ya might wanna start looking at the other reason you cant make it to the top.</p><hr></blockquote>So, just to be clear, in a theoretical raid with nobody kitted out with any Fabled gear Rangers should be top of the parse or at least close to and most definetly T1 and it's the imbalance via the number of bows that is causing the majority of DPS issues we see posted?By the way, I'm not arguing here, only trying to understand.  I've done a few raids and I'm no where near kitted out well in my opinion but I was consistantly on the parse, albeit with somewhat lower numbers than I see some of you posting.</div>

[blackdog1]

I think one simple fix would help us out alot.Give us back sniper shot.This I thought was our big nuke.But with that 15 min. timer it is on.And for me, avg.5500/hit,EVERY other CA I have out performs it over 15 min.I mean come on Confounding arrow does 800+/shot on like a 1 min. timer.Thats around 12000 dam over 15 min. Cut that use timer in half.And Cut that 15 min to like 1 or 2 min.Or Amp up the damage by alot.Why does it seem every other DP class has a nuke on a much shorter timer than us with more damage?Imagine Sniper Shot on a 1 min.timer.Wouldn't that really increase our damage closer to the other classes without giving us a 1 shot kill CA for solo fighting? This seems like a very simple fix to me.Just an Idea.If you see problems with it feel free. <div></div>

[Zholain]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Nuladen wrote:</font><div><font size="2">So, just to be clear, in a theoretical raid with nobody kitted out with any Fabled gear Rangers should be top of the parse or at least close to and most definetly T1 and it's the imbalance via the number of bows that is causing the majority of DPS issues we see posted?By the way, I'm not arguing here, only trying to understand.  I've done a few raids and I'm no where near kitted out well in my opinion but I was consistantly on the parse, albeit with somewhat lower numbers than I see some of you posting.</font></div><hr></blockquote><font size="2">Sort of.  Look at it like this, using Laboratory of Lord Vyemm as an example since it's a zone that most likely most of us have seen and/or cleared.How many duel-wields drop there?  I can think of 4 off the top of my head. (Absolution, Adamantine Dragonfang, Vyemm's Fang, and Oblivion's Edge)How many two-handers drop there?  Again, 3 that I can think of.How many one handers?  Several.Mage staffs?  I'll give them this one, since I can only think of 1 that we've seen, although it's quite nice.Bows?  1 (Wurm Destroyer).  And it is without a doubt the lousiest fabled bow in the game for it's tier.Take those numbers, and then consider the number of people in each raid that can use those different weapon types.And Labs is a perfect representaion of every other zone in the game.  As others have said, arrow consumption and itemization are the two biggest contributors to ranger frustration.EDIT:  Remembered another duel-wield.</font></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:42 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div></div>Itemization is a big problem for rangers - as well as the lack of ranged buffs, most are melee only.But the way my parsings usually look like are..WizardWizard/ranger/assassin (they mix up)RangerAssassinAnd whatever else follows below..But then again, there was a time where a paly was top parse at 1.4k (And I just HAD to go afk during that fight too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) <p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>01-21-2007</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aroumon wrote:<div>There is only one thing broken with the ranger class, arrow consumtion..thats it. Our dps is teir 1 and its mostly based on skill...ask anybody from a high end raiding guild how well their rangers perform and they will say top notch..Im in Second Dawn and we carry two just because we own so much.</div> <div> </div> <div>I am on the top of the parse for every boss in TFD and two out of the three KoS contested mobs and almost every boss in Eof both our rangers are either 1-4 on the parse..on big bosses you can bet we are in the top two.</div> <div> </div> <div>We are not unbalanced from assassins..we do about the same damage as they do without the risk of always being in the fray and jousting thats awsome.</div> <div> </div> <div>Okay here is the constructive part of the post. I will help you maximze your dps, as long as I collect the following information ( group buffs help but you can dps great with the crappiest of groups jsut gotta know what they can give you)</div> <div> </div> <div>Average raid group set up:</div> <div> </div> <div>What is your bow:</div> <div> </div> <div>Do you have Focus Aim M1 or M2:</div> <div> </div> <div>Double Attack:</div> <div> </div> <div>Extension:</div> <div> </div> <div>Do you "sit of 5" ( stay 5 meters away to make sure you get all your melee CAs and when you joust out from aes and back in do you go back to 5):</div> <div> </div> <div>Do you use T7 crafted rings:</div> <div> </div> <div>What is your Ranged skill at:</div> <div> </div> <div>Answer these and I can help you tune up your ranger to be top dps, even if you don't have half of these you can geta dps increase.</div> <div> </div> <div>Aroumon Swiftshot</div> <div>Ranger 70</div> <div>Second Dawn</div><hr></blockquote>My point is (adding to my earlier post), we are all in the same guild, hit all the same raids. Being out-DPS'd by tanks should not happen. If there ear is that much more than mine, than there is a problem with the drop ratio...Most people are in the same boat. We are in guilds, we do the same raids, equipment should NOT be that much different, therefore, we should be on equal terms in abilities...</div>

[Hisvet]

<P>I use Grizzlefazzle with a +12 pierce sinew, I've had Grizzle since July, I never picked up Bylze I took the shield instead unluckily.  I have wurmdestroyer but do not use it.  I have Raincaller which I use for soloing or if we have no enchanters or fear of needing the MT to really control things but want the stunning (its very rare and situational, Its usally all Grizzle)</P> <P>Focus Aim is Master 2</P> <P>I have the full Multishot line barring a filled out stream of arrows</P> <P>I have the full focus line</P> <P>I have 5 caustic</P> <P>I use the Int and Agil lines in Predator tree</P> <P>I use Reinekelters (or however its spelled) and a str acrylia ring</P> <P>My ranged without my CA buffage is 345</P> <P>Whether or not I sit in the 5 is situational to the mobs and raid dependent on aoes and group tactics.  In something like the labs sure I like to get ranger blade and masterstrikes in.  In something like Talendor I stay ranged and fill in the between time reuse CAs with Stream or honed and auto.</P> <P>I use GM caustic and a debuff poisons (coordinated with other scouts to spread it so we cover all the debuff poisons)</P> <P>Normal group: inquisitor, usually 1-2 other rangers, a tank usually a monk  and sometimes if we're lucky with a wizard or bezerker often times it might be something that doesn't help our str/int at all necro.  It is not unusual in a raid group to get nothing but mitigation buffs and haste.  I use fortitude potions then.</P> <P>I'm always in the top 10 if I fire the bow.  I'm often in the top 5.  I can occasionally stay in top 3 if I'm given a blessed group in my own guild fighting it out with a swashbuckler (who is normally 1, the assassin [much better stats both have] and a wizard).  But I work so hard, take so many potions and poisons (if I even have one fight without that GM caustic I'm down 3 or 5 slots)  In other guilds that drops quite a bit with those who have better group buffs Brigands, swashies, bezerks, necros, conjs, assassins all out dps me.</P> <P>Been doing HoS since June and Deathtoll since Oct.  No sign of a bow dropping at all.  If it does I'll be competing with 5 other rangers for it.  </P> <P>Scintillating dust isn't cheap on our server (20-40gp each dust) poisons are pricey, arrows, always.  I was asked by a random stranger what sort of money a lvl 70 ranger makes, I had 12gp on me (that included the bank) at the time coming off of a raid.  I just had to laugh.  Haven't gotten any gear off a raid since Oct 14th only upgrades have been quested.</P> <P>I know I'm not the best ranger on my server.  I'm always looking for ways to improve but you can't beat bad itemization.  I've more than paid my dues I've paid endowments and still not seen any bow (not a single one not sinew not anything) better than Grizzles.  I'm a very angry ranger.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Hisvet on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 AM</span>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hisvet wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>I use Grizzlefazzle with a +12 pierce sinew, I've had Grizzle since July, I never picked up Bylze I took the shield instead unluckily.  I have wurmdestroyer but do not use it.  I have Raincaller which I use for soloing or if we have no enchanters or fear of needing the MT to really control things but want the stunning (its very rare and situational, Its usally all Grizzle)</p> <p>Focus Aim is Master 2</p> <p>I have the full Multishot line barring a filled out stream of arrows</p> <p>I have the full focus line</p> <p>I have 5 caustic</p> <p>I use the Int and Agil lines in Predator tree</p> <p>I use Reinekelters (or however its spelled) and a str acrylia ring</p> <p>My ranged without my CA buffage is 345</p> <p>Whether or not I sit in the 5 is situational to the mobs and raid dependent on aoes and group tactics.  In something like the labs sure I like to get ranger blade and masterstrikes in.  In something like Talendor I stay ranged and fill in the between time reuse CAs with Stream or honed and auto.</p> <p>I use GM caustic and a debuff poisons (coordinated with other scouts to spread it so we cover all the debuff poisons)</p> <p>Normal group: inquisitor, usually 1-2 other rangers, a tank usually a monk  and sometimes if we're lucky with a wizard or bezerker often times it might be something that doesn't help our str/int at all necro.  It is not unusual in a raid group to get nothing but mitigation buffs and haste.  I use fortitude potions then.</p> <p>I'm always in the top 10 if I fire the bow.  I'm often in the top 5.  I can occasionally stay in top 3 if I'm given a blessed group in my own guild fighting it out with a swashbuckler (who is normally 1, the assassin [much better stats both have] and a wizard).  But I work so hard, take so many potions and poisons (if I even have one fight without that GM caustic I'm down 3 or 5 slots)  In other guilds that drops quite a bit with those who have better group buffs Brigands, swashies, bezerks, necros, conjs, assassins all out dps me.</p> <p>Been doing HoS since June and Deathtoll since Oct.  No sign of a bow dropping at all.  If it does I'll be competing with 5 other rangers for it.  </p> <p>Scintillating dust isn't cheap on our server (20-40gp each dust) poisons are pricey, arrows, always.  I was asked by a random stranger what sort of money a lvl 70 ranger makes, I had 12gp on me (that included the bank) at the time coming off of a raid.  I just had to laugh.  Haven't gotten any gear off a raid since Oct 14th only upgrades have been quested.</p> <p>I know I'm not the best ranger on my server.  I'm always looking for ways to improve but you can't beat bad itemization.  I've more than paid my dues I've paid endowments and still not seen any bow (not a single one not sinew not anything) better than Grizzles.  I'm a very angry ranger.</p> <p>Message Edited by Hisvet on <span class="date_text">01-22-2007</span> <span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You might want to switch to RC for good and drop Grizzle. Here is why<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The high end damage on RC is much higher therefore you will score much higer crits. I have parsed both extensively and my DPS is muich better with RC. It is the same reasoning why the GDoH is the best DW for scouts. High end damage FTW<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Hisvet]

<DIV>Raincaller is NOT on option for a mewhen raiding.  It screws up enchanters and it screws with pulling and positioning mobs.  I've seen wipes caused by inappropriate stunning of mobs where you have buffs, heals and timing dependant on handling that target.  Add to that its multiple target stunning and it does not make for a good raid if its about precision.  I use raincaller maybe 5% of the time on a raid because it interferes with everyone else and we've asked the assassin and others who can use it to remove the bow because it will proc off of melee if its in your ranged slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our bows are just like a guardians weapons, we use different ones for different jobs to my mind.  I keep 3 on me currently and hotbar them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My own parsing hasn't shown a superiority yet.  I proc a lot for one thing which makes Grizzle rather decent.  Grizzle is mediocre but it has a great proc and the difference in high end damage between the two is all but neglible  394 Rain vs 340 Grizzle is not like a Sarnak or even the Ghost Bow.  They seem to be about even, but I'll keep an eye on it, I don't think it will matter though as its not welcomed in most of the raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd say if I can stay where I am doing damage with a stupid bow and not all fabled I'm doing pretty well it seems I only fall behind due to others gearing beyond me.  I want my 2 good bows for raiding.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Hisvet on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 PM</span>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hisvet wrote:<BR> <P><Snip></P> <P>I know I'm not the best ranger on my server.  I'm always looking for ways to improve but you can't beat bad itemization.  I've more than paid my dues I've paid endowments and still not seen any bow (not a single one not sinew not anything) better than Grizzles.  I'm a very angry ranger.</P> <P>Message Edited by Hisvet on <SPAN class=date_text>01-22-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:36 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In what way have you more than paid your dues?  According to you, you're guild has only been doing DT since October...meaning you've probably killed Tarinax fewer than 10 times....you personally possibly quite a bit less.  In what way is a drop rate of a bow per 10 or so Tarinax kills too low?  What rate do you think it should be?  Do you think it should drop in every chest if Tarinax is killed?  The drop rate of bows off Tarinax is in line with other items he drops...like boots.</P> <P>Look, I can agree there should maybe be a bow better than Grizfazzle or Raincaller drop in Labs, and a better one than what drops in Lyceum.  But don't forget that there are two decent bows that drop off of some of the easiest "raid" mobs in the game (the Heartsinger bows).</P> <P>But having said that, I don't understand this entitlement mentality where someone thinks that just because he/she kills a mob whose loot table includes one of the best items in the game for his/her class they believe it should drop practivcally every time.  Put in the effort to kill Tarinax 20 or so times with no bow, and I might have more sympathy.<BR></P>

[Hisvet]

I raid with 3 different groups pretty regularly and you dont think in the 7 months I've had Grizzles that I shouldn't have run across another bow including the quote "easiset mobs" heartstringer?  Well they haven't dropped.  The only bow I've ever seen drop in all the time raiding has been wurmslayer.  Now I may be the worlds unluckiest ranger but I expect if other classes didn't get their upgrades in 7 months they'd be a bit miffed.  I can't even quest for one, Claymore is done, most of the Sigs I can do, done.  Raincaller is it.  Its not a raiding bow.  At this point I'd take a sinew, anything.  But I've never seen them, not so much as a bow of the flapping wing in 10 times of Ascent.

[Aroumon]

<P>Okay I know your pain because I had a comparable bow during KoS but there is alot you can do.</P> <P>I don't know why your ranged is so low but here are a few items that should be easy to get that might help you out.</P> <P>Redhaze Chain Shoulders - common tresured drop from Castle Mistmoore basement + 4 ranged good stats.</P> <P>Here are a list of bows you could aim for, these are for non-raiders to moderate raiders.</P> <P>There are 4 bows that you could go for with minimal effort...Bazkul, Horn-tipped 96 dr? ( ghazi ), Recurved Heartstringer ( cube mobs ) and Sarnak Warbow. If you attempt each of these every time you can you will get a bow in less than a month with a DR better than 90.</P> <P>MoA if you don't have.</P> <P>Shadow Strider Boots - from first named in Freethinkers..easy mob.</P> <P>Nature's Glove of the Stalker - EH Sarnik the fang...easiest mob in EH +7 ranged</P> <P>Also if you can clear DT and HoS then you might be able to get ranger set gear out of MMIS.</P> <P>Im tired right now so if you want me to list some more things let me know.</P> <P> </P> <P>Aroumon Swiftshot</P>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aroumon wrote:<BR> <P>Okay I know your pain because I had a comparable bow during KoS but there is alot you can do.</P> <P>I don't know why your ranged is so low but here are a few items that should be easy to get that might help you out.</P> <P>Redhaze Chain Shoulders - common tresured drop from Castle Mistmoore basement + 4 ranged good stats.</P> <P>Here are a list of bows you could aim for, these are for non-raiders to moderate raiders.</P> <P>There are 4 bows that you could go for with <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM><U>minimal effort</U></EM></STRONG></FONT>...Bazkul, Horn-tipped 96 dr? ( ghazi ), Recurved Heartstringer ( cube mobs ) and Sarnak Warbow. If you attempt each of these every time you can you will get a bow in less than a month with a DR better than 90.</P> <P>MoA if you don't have.</P> <P>Shadow Strider Boots - from first named in Freethinkers..easy mob.</P> <P>Nature's Glove of the Stalker - EH Sarnik the fang...easiest mob in EH +7 ranged</P> <P>Also if you can clear DT and HoS then you might be able to get ranger set gear out of MMIS.</P> <P>Im tired right now so if you want me to list some more things let me know.</P> <P> </P> <P>Aroumon Swiftshot</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No offense intended, mate, but...you're not serious about putting 'minimal effort' and 'Bazkul' and 'Sarnak Warbow' in the same sentence together, are you?</P> <P>Look, I am sure there are a ton of raiding guilds now that have DT on farm status and can do HoS with ten people and their eyes closed. There are also a lot more raiding guilds still working their way up the progression for which these zones are NOT easy. And under a month? Huh? Sure, it's possible, if you're lucky with the RNG, but the loot tables on both Tarinax and Venekor are huge, and the chances of those bows dropping are anything but. </P> <P>Besides, her post clearly stated that she's been going on every raid to those two zones she can manage already. I think a lot of folks here forget what it was like before they got those bows, and it's getting a little tiring to hear that all we have to do is JUST clear Deathtoll and Halls of Seeing, and we'll be golden. The disparity comes before you're capable of obtaining those bows, and THAT is what the complaints about itemization are all about. Because you could kill Tarinax/Venekor a hundred times and never see the bow drop, let alone win the roll for it, and in the meantime, necros, wizards, assassins, brigands, swashies, and conjurors all parse consistently and significantly higher, because their required fabled gear drops more, and there's much more of it.</P> <P>Again, I don't mean to go off, but I'm tired of hearing how 'easy' it is to do these things from folks who did these things half a year ago. Some of us aren't that far up on the progression ladder yet.<BR></P>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>I don;t know about other servers but pick up DT raids happen on my server, cube mobs are doable by 6 people and same with ghazi...they never mentioned ghazi at all which has a decend bow drop rate...if you hit up ALL of these mobs when you can you should get a bow within a month..and yes DT is minimal effort..we have 10+ guilds on our server that still clear it weekly. Her post clearly states that she is doing two out of the four things that I mentioned. And I do know what it is like not having these bows and I still was doing good DPS..all of KoS I was using Darkfury Longbow like I have said before..you have to try harder to get your dps up when your lacking a bow its that simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Aroumon wrote:<div>I don;t know about other servers but pick up DT raids happen on my server, cube mobs are doable by 6 people and same with ghazi...they never mentioned ghazi at all which has a decend bow drop rate...if you hit up ALL of these mobs when you can you should get a bow within a month..and yes DT is minimal effort..we have 10+ guilds on our server that still clear it weekly. Her post clearly states that she is doing two out of the four things that I mentioned. And I do know what it is like not having these bows and I still was doing good DPS..all of KoS I was using Darkfury Longbow like I have said before..you have to try harder to get your dps up when your lacking a bow its that simple.</div> <div> </div> <div>Aroumon Swiftshot</div><hr></blockquote>We have 6 guilds on our server that clear DT, getting into one of these guilds isent easy.. Getting into DT after going through the alliances isent any easier.. Personally, I am in a guild thats starting out on the EoF raid zones - and has cleared dt maybe 10 times and we have been very VERY lucky with the bazkul, it has dropped 4 times out of maybe 10..  But getting a DT bow is half the battle, it is the only zone that gives t8 ammo..What you dont realize, or dont remember is the how hard it was the first time.. Everythings a challenge the first time, and in most cases it takes 2-3 tries to kill a dragon/big raidmob.. So, we have vymm, tal,gore,venekor, tarinax, and the last guy in lyceum....In most guilds out there it takes months and months to get to the progression they need to take down DT.. And simply "trying harder" at that stage wont help you.. The only way we are "on par" is when we have that ammo.. When we have 50 AA's without ammo, we are pretty much t2 dps or inotherwords 20-30% lower than an equally geared assassin at that stage (I proved this back the kos days on a direct comparison of abilities). The max you can go is nowhere near as high as the max you can go with t8 ammo, period.</div>

[Mirdo]

<P>We run with 2 rangers 1 with Sarnak, the other with Bazkul. It's rare for us to be outside top 3 or 4 if we were actually there the whole fight <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Rangers are sitting quite well for DPS now but, in our guild at least, the Necro is top DPS on a reasonably high percentage of fights. Imo this is probably about the most balanced the classes have been for a long time.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[Hisvet]

<DIV>Tarinax has been killed 8 times for me personally, no bows have dropped, same with Drake.  Same with Venekor, my guild has no interest in the cubes unfortunately the 3 times I've helped others, no bow.  No bow from AoA, no bows from the 20 times in LoA, we're just starting Freethinkers on the 2nd mob.  I do well in dps in the guilds I do run in but I want a bow.  At this point I just want an upgrade of some kind in the one weapon that defines me.  Its silly I've seen almost everything drop but a bow.  It didn't help when I raided with 3 different guilds the same week or 5-7 times per week verus the 3 - 4 I'm averaging now.  If a bow ever drops...well my own guild raids with 3-5 rangers.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think after more than half a year I need to let it go, not expect a bow to drop but I still think itemization should be looked at because nobody should have that much bad luck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanguard is looking good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This thread to me isn't about who is out dps'ing whom its about itemization and getting the things you need to be that raider.  I see everything available I need for that but bows.  I think there's something off in the rate maybe its gotten worse since EOF with the 2 in DT I don't know, but I haven't seen any of the bows yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Hisvet on <SPAN class=date_text>01-24-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:08 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Hisvet on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:12 AM</span>

[Shadowbain]

<DIV>Well i would say that Rangers are SOLID DPS, you have to know what order to use your CA's and short term DPS buffs in.  Granted Rangers don't shine tell they get 100 AA's, a solid fabled bow and t ammo. That being said there is little anyone can gain from this post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> who cares what CLASS is out DPSing the other in your guild.  if you want to know where you rangers are parsing compared to others then you NEED to give us some numbers so we can compare them to the other rangers and classes in other guilds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just cause some Rangers are not making top DPS in there guild raids dose not mean the class is broken it could easily be the fault of that player of even the raid leader not knowing what classes to stack with a ranger to maximize DPS for all. If you want some help from a fellow Ranger on how to maximize your DPS with what you have for gear then you need to put up some numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>where a lvl 70 Ranger should be at for raid DPS:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 AA's, Fabled bow, T8 ammo, Full fabled gear with high STR and INT:  2k to 3k DPS on most fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>80 AA's, Legendary bow, T7 ammo, Some fabled gear:  1K to 1800 DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>50 AA's, Legendary bow, summoned arrows, treasured and legendary gear: 800 to 1500 DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are close to those then you are about where you should be, sadly Rangers are very gear dependent.  Now there is also player skill to take in account and I've seen some rangers who are fully fabled with fabled bows and everything they need and still don't brake the 1800 parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again Rangers can be Solid DPS but they take some understanding on how to maximize there DPS, its not a class that you can just click the next CA when it is up.  You need to utilize your short term buffs to there full advantage and know what order to use your CA's so they all refresh about the same time so you can hit a short term buff and unload <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers have Spike DPS, you use melee CA's and the fast recast ranged attacks and wait for the longer casting CA's to cycle then use Focus Aim and chain all your big hits as fast as you can.  Now you will have to learn which order to use your combat arts so that they all cycle about the same time to maximize the use of your short term buffs <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All i can tell you is what i know of my guild on where Rangers parse compared to other classes and that is the same for all of you and your guilds. If we are to make this a USEFUL thread then we need to put up some numbers so we can all see what classes compared to other classes are doing more DPS and from what raid makeup. Also we will be able to see if it is just a unskilled player [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing that they cant DPS or if it is a VALID concern. Plain and simple YOU NEED NUMBERS or we have no reference point to judge if your DPS is broken or if the PLAYER is broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but yes i  DO agree that rangers have been shafted and there are other classes that come close to a rangers DPS but offer a lot more to a raid, however i will never agree that a Rangers DPS is bad. I do think there DPS should be well over the support and buff/debuff classes so through us a bone in that respect to solidify a solid spot on raids.</DIV>

[kartikeya]

<P>Those numbers look about right for where I'm at, Shadowbain (I'm hovering between your two lower tiers in damage, but then, that's where I am AA-wise as well). Generally, if there's a tip or trick posted here, I'd like to think I'm already using it, but I'm definitely up to more suggestions.</P> <P>HOWEVER...as you said, there's a point at which skill caps out, and your gear is going to slow you down. My point remains that rogues and summoners geared up in VLabs start matching and <EM>surpassing </EM>us, to say nothing of the equipment they can get in the more difficult zones. Until we get 100 AA's and these stupidly rare bows, we're stuck doing less DPS and offering no utility for our spot on the raid than the geared T2 classes, and most of this is entirely the fault of the itemization gap with bows. It's that disparity that I will continue to insist needs to be addressed, even should I get lucky enough to get a drop of one of these bows. It's a disparity I fear will come back and bite us hard if itemization in T8 turns out to be like it has in every other tier.</P> <P>Whatever happened to bow DR matching 2her DR? We were promised that nearly a year ago now, and as far as I can tell, it's still not there.</P><p>Message Edited by kartikeya on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>

[Zendi_Perma]

There is light at the end of the tunnel.     I got my Ichorstrand on Monday night, and I'm currently using the ammo with my Recurved Heartstinger.      With just inquisitor buffs, I was #1 in Freethinkers over a very well-played swashy and our sorcerers.   I also completed both multishot and extension in the Ranger AA lines.      I will probably still be behind our top assassin until I find my elusive T6 masters that I'm missing and loot at 100+ DR bow.     Overall though I was very happy.

[blackdog1]

You guys are much more learned  than me an I have picked up so much info from reading these boards.But I think some of you are missing the forest for the trees.As others have said before,our job is dps.We bring nothing else to the table.Seems to me since it's the ONLY thing we do,we should be the best at it without haveing every ultimate peice of gear, all 100 aa's and other classes boosting are abilities plus hitting our AA's at JUST the right moment.In other words,why do rangers have to work so hard to be AVG.dps,when thats suppose to be our main function? <div></div>

[Aroumon]

<P>Okay, we do more things than just dps we have some debuffs also..but most of you guys miss the point of what a ranger is about. Assassins SHOULD out dps us...brigands should be about the same as us. We bring Ranged combat to the table. And as such being ranged combat our risk of death is lowered. Our dps is very close to evenly geared rogues. Have you ever seen a Matron parse or a Chel'Drak parse...even with crappy gear and a crappy bow rangers still parse at the top due to how often we can be engaged and how many shot we can get in over alot of classes. With that said there are more fights in the game that are ranger intensive than that. Trust me we are a balanced class DPS wise when I say it. However the monetary cost of being a ranger brings us down. If you have the AAs and even gear with an Assassin you will do about the same dps..maybe a bit less but an assassin has almot more to lose than we do, being at close range.</P> <P>Aroumon Swiftshot</P>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV>I hate it when the boards eat my posts!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, I'll try and summarize.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers arent "AVG" DPS. We actually deal great DPS, and as stated many many times already, we are just very gear dependant. Without that long sought after fabled bow, you might as well consider yourself as good as the guy that never raids, got all his masters off the broker, and doesnt own any fabled items. Cause that bow is pretty much the dividing line between crappy dps, to great dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Chances are, if you're playing with ppl that dont raid, arent fully mastered out and dont have any fabled gear... You prolly wont look so bad.</DIV><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class=date_text>01-24-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:11 PM</span>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aroumon wrote:<BR> <P>Okay, we do more things than just dps we have some debuffs also..but most of you guys miss the point of what a ranger is about. Assassins SHOULD out dps us...brigands should be about the same as us. We bring Ranged combat to the table. And as such being ranged combat our risk of death is lowered. Our dps is very close to evenly geared rogues. Have you ever seen a Matron parse or a Chel'Drak parse...even with crappy gear and a crappy bow rangers still parse at the top due to how often we can be engaged and how many shot we can get in over alot of classes. With that said there are more fights in the game that are ranger intensive than that. Trust me we are a balanced class DPS wise when I say it. However the monetary cost of being a ranger brings us down. If you have the AAs and even gear with an Assassin you will do about the same dps..maybe a bit less but an assassin has almot more to lose than we do, being at close range.</P> <P>Aroumon Swiftshot</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Whoa whoa whoa...I'm sorry, that's just. No. I'm boggling here. We are NOT supposed to be matched by brigands, and assassins are NOT supposed to out DPS us.</P> <P>Debuffs? Yes, we have some debuffs. They help, I'm sure, but they are EXTREMELY minimal. Extremely. Have you seen what brigands can do, utility-wise? No raid brings a ranger for their debuffs, they bring a BRIGAND. That's what brigands are for. That's what they DO. They also out-DPS us once they get some AA's and fabled gear, and again, that's because itemization on bows is screwed up.</P> <P>We pay for our ranged combat in many, many, many ways, literally and figuratively. Apart from the absolutely obvious cost of arrows, we're hamstrung if we can't stay a certain distance from the mob. Our melee abilities are extremely weak as a trade-off. We have NO effective utility. Yes, you said debuffs. I'm saying those debuffs mean next to nothing in a raid. </P> <P>Sorcerors are also ranged. They're our mage brothers in the T1 tier. They don't have the distance penalty, nor do they have to pay for ammunition. Assassins may have to get in and mix it up, but that's because they're our melee counterpart--we're two halves of the same beast. And frankly, as most of their CA's can be used while moving, on fights where they have to joust, I really haven't seen their DPS change too much. On the other hand, assassins have their own problems, and I can't speak for them--but they should be equal to us, and us to them. That's how the classes were designed, and how they have been balanced this entire time.</P> <P>This is not a DPS issue. It isn't. We ARE T1 DPS, once all the stupid bow issues are dealt with. This is a GEAR issue. The issue is that we have to go after one of two bows in Deathtoll for ammo, and then after ANOTHER bow either in HoS or from the contested Bonemire mobs, or wait even longer for Fallen Dynasty or EoF drops, before we can match T2 classes that start getting upgrades way back in Vlabs. The issue is that there is not, nor has there ever been, a prismatic 1, 2, or 3 bow reward. The issue is that bows still do not match the DR on 2handers, as was promised would be the case when KoS opened. The issue is that many utility classes recieve beneficial buffs that work on melee but not ranged. The issue is that we are the one class that depends on the BOW to do our damage, and the bow is woefully, woefully overlooked.</P> <P>That's the issue. A ranger is about damage. That's all we've ever been about. I'm fine with that, so long as we can put out that damage, at all levels of the game. Right now that isn't the case, and therefore, it needs to be addressed.</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kartikeya wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>This is not a DPS issue. It isn't. We ARE T1 DPS, once all the stupid bow issues are dealt with. This is a GEAR issue.</STRONG></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>QFE.</P> <P>That quote pretty much sums up any Ranger DPS arguement. I completely agree with everything Kartikeya said in the previous post.</P> <P>Aroumon, are you serious? You honestly think that we should be dealing less damage then an assassin? Because we are mostly ranged CAs? Need I remind you that when this game started out, Assassins and Rangers followed the same path through Scout to Predator before becoming an Assassin or a Ranger? Even the word Predator just screams damage. The same is true for Sorcerors (wizzys and warlocks). I know that the DPS tree as stated by a dev was retracted, but Im certain that was only done as a way to try and curb the [I cannot control my vocabulary]ing that was going on by so many classes. Dispite what they say, I still feel that they try to adhear to that. Rangers, Assassins, Warlocks and Wizzys should be, in no specific order... hitting the top of the Parse. Right now, I believe that a well equipped ranger is in a good place. We can fill our role as we were meant to. I cant, nor will I speak on behalf of the other 3 classes, but we are doing okay these days.<BR></P>

[Zendi_Perma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kartikeya wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that is a cool sig.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>How can you honestly equate one class to another? We have utility ...find it. I found utility with rangers and so has the other ranger in SD thats why we carry two around to raids and have for quite some time. We are not just DPS we do many other things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV>

[kartikeya]

<P>Utility other than the extremely minor debuffs (which again, do not make any real difference to a raid. At all.):</P> <P>Miracle shot: able to shoot something without line of sight. So far I've only been asked to use this on that eyeball thing in Vlabs that drops the crappy Wurm Destroyer bow.</P> <P>Pathfinding: Every scout has this. Absolutely no use to a raid whatsoever, and generally once you're out of your teens, not really any use to anyone else either.</P> <P>Evac: Every scout has this. So do shadow knights. So do either wardens or furies (I can't remember which at the moment). So do wizards. No use to a raid unless a pull goes wrong and you're in an instance without repops. Even then, I rarely get an evac call.</P> <P>Poisons: Again, every scout (apart from bards) has this.</P> <P>Confounding arrow: Dubious. Gives the guy being hit some additional hategain. Can't hurt if your tank has his aggro already locked down. Can go VERY VERY BAD if he doesn't.</P> <P>Okay, so of those up there, only two aren't available from classes that outdamage us during this equipment gap, and those are EXTREMELY circumstancial and/or of questionable use. Even the ones that other classes have are (apart from poisons) pretty worthless to a raid.</P> <P>If there's some magical hidden cache of utility that every other ranger has somehow managed to overlook in 70 levels, please tell us. I would love to have something to compare to useful group buffs, group procs, pets, shards, hearts, massive debuffs, the ability to delay AOE's, greater tankability, etc. etc. etc.</P> <P>I don't understand what you're arguing here. This is about the T7 equipment gap. You've already stated that you have the bows required (and I assume full AA's). YOU DO NOT HAVE A DPS PROBLEM. That is the POINT. I'm sure you do other things in raids than mindlessly mash buttons in a certain order (otherwise known as the elusive 'skill'), but that does not equate to T2 utility in any way, shape, or form. There's just no comparison at all. Your job is to do damage. Period. End of story. And as rangers who have obtained the correct equipment are, as previously stated, T1 DPS, then I think the simplest answer as to why your guild carries two rangers is because you do damage. Lots of it. Quickly. Because you have the necessary gear.</P> <P>There is a gap that everyone, including you, has acknowledged in the T7 equipment progression in regards to bows. I'm really failing to see why anyone would NOT want that gap addressed. This isn't about handing out SWB's to every new level 1 ranger. This is about smoothing out the gap so that there isn't a significant period of time in which T2 classes are vastly outperforming a T1 class, and said T1 class is stuck bringing less DPS and no consistently useful utility to the raid game until they can obtain TWO end game bows. Waiting until Deathtoll/Halls of Seeing/Matron/etc in order to catch up with classes wielding Vlabs equipment is completely out of whack. </P> <P>I really don't know how to put it more plainly.</P> <P>Edit: To answer your first question...equality does not mean something is exactly the same. It just means it's equal. If I put a basketball on one side of a scale, and then I put golf balls on the other side until it evens out, THAT is equal. Clearly it's not remotely the same. If I put massive DPS plus massive utility on one side of a scale, and I put lesser DPS and nothing else on the other...that is NOT equal.</P><p>Message Edited by kartikeya on <span class=date_text>01-25-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:54 AM</span>

[Zendi_Perma]

If the goal is to have bows comparable to two-handers in DR, that would be an easy fix.    Look at all the high DR two-hand staffs that are easily attainable.      The fact that Grizzfazzle's 2-hand staff is 87.5 DR, and the bow is 77.5 is curious if the goal is equality.     Ah, but this is all pointless anyway, the devs will do what the devs will do.   Hopefully they will focus on rangers soon.

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>Don't forget our uber Cover fire ability, or devitalizing arrow debuffs</P> <P>/sarcasm off</P> <P> </P>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>Im sorry let me retract a few things, I have got my head stuck in EoF..my apoliges. Please allow me to explain the diffreneces between things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here are the facts: most eof raids are more "Ranger friendly" and most KoS raids are not ( Minus Hurricanus and MO )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my appoligies I haven't done much KoS since EoF has came out because of guild priorities. Let me assure you the gear gap ( yes even with a T6 fabled bow ) is alot diffrent in EoF raid zones above freethinkers. It might not be the gear that needs to be looked at just the evens themselves which pose a particular disadvantate to certian classes over and over agian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV>

[Isilg]

<DIV>its not all gear... its far more skill than gear... or grp make up... i raid with one of the better guilds on my server and for the longest time i used Griz's bow maybe 1 master and 2 adept3 and had master crafted and a few legendary gear(parsed around 700-900 depending on the mob)... and i still held my own against all other dps in my guild... later i got the bow of searing missles, dps actually went up a little (900-1000), the next bow i got was ichorstrand which i used for nothing but ammo (parses started hitting 1200 and on a rare occasion 1500, at this point the highest i ever hit was 2502 on the parse on wyrms in DT), later i got the Rain Caller and my low end parsing went up (not even trying i would get 800+, and probably did 1300-1600) i soon stopped using the Rain Caller as it isnt the best bow for raiding as the proc can interfer with mezzing, a few weeks later on a pick up raid Sinew Wrapped Long Bow dropped and my parses jumped up again (consistantly at 1400+peaking at around 2200), i finally got Bazkul the other week, and honestly it isnt that big of a jump from from Sinew Wrapped, but i can tell you that in LOA i have parsed 3500+ on certain group encounters, and maintain 1500+ on 90% of mobs... Its a rare thing for me not to be top 3 on my parses, typically im fighting with 2 assassins, one considered to be the best assassin on the sever (he is capable of hit 3K regularly on the parse and he has made dueling look like an art form... its almost scary how good he is), the other assassin is definately one of the best... I can parse with them when i dont have the buffing they do... One assassin is almost always in the MT grp, and as such his parses wont be quite as high as the other but he is still getting a dirges buffs amoung others... the other assassin is normally grped with a fury for agitate an illusionist for buffs and deagro a wizard who also buffs but is also deagroed by the Illusionist... Im lucky to get directly buffed... typically i get whats left over, and my that typically happends cause my guild knows i dont need the buffs to keep up most of the time... in the occurance when they are feeling generous or we have an abundance of dps buffing classes ill sometimes get paired with a dirge,... but honestly my favorite class to be buffed with is a Warden... a warden buffs Ranged by 65... and im at 420 selfed buffed, when i have a wardens buffs... Shadow Knights buffs and an Inquisitors buffs (my typical grp make up... unless they throw a Dirge in)... i can keep up with anyone on the parse but maybe our top assassin... if he gets everything he wants... hes [I cannot control my vocabulary] near untouchable...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few weeks ago we went into LOA and brought a Troub... a class that our raid grp is often lucky enough to have... we paired our Conjy, and 2 Wizards with the Troub... our assassin got the dirge and fury... and i got just a warden... and the parses were 4 classes fighting for the top... on the one encounter before Vilusudae (SP?) the 8 mob encounter, we just went balls to the wall... and i bet out everyone but the Conjy with a parse over 3800... the conjy hit just shy of 4k (3900 something)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>granted im hitting as high as i am as a combination of everything, gear, spells, and skill</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but i have since i have been raiding always managed to make the parse in a reasonable place...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do i think rangers need some help... yea maybe a little... i dont like it when i see our two briggands sneak up on the parse in hit 1400 or 1500 on a mob when i only managed 1300... but briggands and swashy dont require so much work to do T1 dps... until i get Matrons bow or Mayongs bow i dont expect to top the parse as often as our main Assassin does... but it doesnt mean i cant beat him on the parse a hand full of times on a raid... granted i have yet to beat him on the zone wide... and i dont think i will for a long time... our damage is Burst... and if you dont know how to take advantage of it and work around it at the same time... you'll never master your class and attain that high parse you so desire... Assassins do more consistant high end damage... if we didnt use sniper shot and an assassin didnt use decap... in a 10 sec fight we can put out twice the dps...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>while rangers need "some" help... i dont want it to be ALOT... i like the challenge... it means when i hit the top of the parse... im doing something very right... timing my attacks with dispatch... using my buffs... correct range... proper gear... proper attacks at the right time... the ranger isnt a button mashing class... plain and simple... if thats what you want... go play another class...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the biggest thing i would ask for... Double Attack increasing in %chance to proc to maybe 20% or 25%... but at 25% i think it could prove to be over kill...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and as stated in another post... i wouldnt be apposed to giving up sniper shot in favor of another buff that grants a little more (30+)ranged buffing and (5%?)ranged crit chance... maybe even a few points of (20+?)DPS buffing... we have enough haste as it is...</DIV>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Isilgar wrote:<BR> <DIV>its not all gear... its far more skill than gear... or grp make up... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for the longest time i used Griz's bow maybe 1 master and 2 adept3 and had master crafted and a few legendary gear(parsed around 700-900 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> later i got the bow of searing missles, dps actually went up a little (900-1000), </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the next bow i got was ichorstrand which i used for nothing but ammo (parses started hitting 1200 and on a rare occasion 1500, at this point the highest i ever hit was 2502 on the parse on wyrms in DT),</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i got the Rain Caller and my low end parsing went up (not even trying i would get 800+, and probably did 1300-1600) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> a few weeks later on a pick up raid Sinew Wrapped Long Bow dropped and my parses jumped up again (consistantly at 1400+peaking at around 2200), </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i finally got Bazkul the other week, and honestly it isnt that big of a jump from from Sinew Wrapped, but i can tell you that in LOA i have parsed 3500+ on certain group encounters, and maintain 1500+ on 90% of mobs...<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I snipped most of the irrelevent stuff that you had in your post... I made it easier for everyone to read...</P> <P>The first thing I want you to look at.. is your very first statement. And then look at how you followed it up. Average starting T7 rangers should be hitting around the numbers you listed with Grizzle... no argument... with each and every single new item (bow) you aquired, you're DPS got higher. By the time you got Bazkul... and I assume your Double Shot... You can maintain 1.5K.. </P> <P>Yeah, its got absolutely nothing to do with gear.. HAHA Wrong, you just proved that it did.</P> <P>So.. the list is like this.</P> <P>Gear.... then group set up.... then skill.... and believe me, its really not that hard to mash buttons in a set order. Yeah, I know a few ppl that cant master that.... but they are the exception.<BR></P>

[Isilg]

Im still not the best equiped ranger on the server... and when it comes to grp make up... im often left out of the best dps grps... but im still able to parse consistently better than rangers with better gear and better classed raiding grps... i still say its skill... what a ranger should do and what a ranger does do... are stark contrasts to one another... just because a ranger who has gotten to my point should be capable of doing what i do doesnt mean they will... ive been on raids with other raid forces where their main ranger is set up rather well, bard, inquisitor, monk, berserker and warden... getting dps, haste, ranged buff, increased ranged crit chance... had better gear including Sarnak, and still didnt parse over 1200... if you dont know when to use what skill and how they should be used in the first place, you're doomed to be a mediocre ranger at best... i know lvl 70 rangers that are fairly well equiped that wish they could parse 1200 on an encounter

[Lev]

The only problem Isilgar is that the numbers you are stating aren't really t1 dps. Most good swashies parse 1600+ zonewide, and I know of wizards that hit around 3k fight after fight, of course not zonewide, but pretty regularly.there is only so much your skills can compensate for. I can't really talk of my own numbers as they are not the best, and I am not exactly have optimal equipment. Also a rangers dps consists of 35-45% auto attack. which in itself proves that we rely on our bows ALOT.<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Isilgar wrote:<BR>Im still not the best equiped ranger on the server... and when it comes to grp make up... im often left out of the best dps grps... but im still able to parse consistently better than rangers with better gear and better classed raiding grps... i still say its skill... what a ranger should do and what a ranger does do... are stark contrasts to one another... just because a ranger who has gotten to my point should be capable of doing what i do doesnt mean they will... ive been on raids with other raid forces where their main ranger is set up rather well, bard, inquisitor, monk, berserker and warden... getting dps, haste, ranged buff, increased ranged crit chance...<FONT color=#ff0000> had better gear including Sarnak, and still didnt parse over 1200</FONT>... if you dont know when to use what skill and how they should be used in the first place, you're doomed to be a mediocre ranger at best... i know lvl 70 rangers that are fairly well equiped that wish they could parse 1200 on an encounter<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If the highlighted statement is true, then I would have to say that they were either AFK half the fight, or just really not trying very hard. Considering that, depending on group set up, Sarnak with AA alone (prior to double shot) could easily get you 600-800 DPS.  </P> <P>Im sure most of use have a sequence of CAs that we use to start a fight, but once through that sequence, its more or less button mashing then next avail CA. If you ask me, thats not skill. It doesnt take "skill" to click your mouse, or push buttons on a keyboard. To a very small degree, it takes some knowledge of your class, and your CAs.. but its still not skill.</P> <P>For instance, my CAs are set up based on the refresh timers, and then damage output. I'll usually start out with my debuffs, then my two shortest ranged CAs. By this time, our Brigand should be popping off Dispatch, so then its Focus aim, and down the list from longest recast to shortest. By the time I get through the the rest of my ranged CAs, the first two I used are back up.. pop those off, and switch to melee. Thats not skill... its knowledge of what does what.</P> <P>I will agree that, just because a ranger should be able to do something, doesnt mean he will... Some ppl are just lazy, others are just totally clueless. Skill, however, is still not a factor.<BR></P>

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Isilgar wrote:<BR>Im still not the best equiped ranger on the server... and when it comes to grp make up... im often left out of the best dps grps... but im still able to parse consistently better than rangers with better gear and better classed raiding grps... i still say its skill... what a ranger should do and what a ranger does do... are stark contrasts to one another... just because a ranger who has gotten to my point should be capable of doing what i do doesnt mean they will... ive been on raids with other raid forces where their main ranger is set up rather well, bard, inquisitor, monk, berserker and warden... getting dps, haste, ranged buff, increased ranged crit chance...<FONT color=#ff0000> had better gear including Sarnak, and still didnt parse over 1200</FONT>... if you dont know when to use what skill and how they should be used in the first place, you're doomed to be a mediocre ranger at best... i know lvl 70 rangers that are fairly well equiped that wish they could parse 1200 on an encounter<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If the highlighted statement is true, then I would have to say that they were either AFK half the fight, or just really not trying very hard. Considering that, depending on group set up, Sarnak with AA alone (prior to double shot) could easily get you 600-800 DPS.  </P> <P>Im sure most of use have a sequence of CAs that we use to start a fight, but once through that sequence, its more or less button mashing then next avail CA. If you ask me, thats not skill. It doesnt take "skill" to click your mouse, or push buttons on a keyboard. To a very small degree, it takes some knowledge of your class, and your CAs.. but its still not skill.</P> <P>For instance, my CAs are set up based on the refresh timers, and then damage output. I'll usually start out with my debuffs, then my two shortest ranged CAs. By this time, our Brigand should be popping off Dispatch, so then its Focus aim, and down the list from longest recast to shortest. By the time I get through the the rest of my ranged CAs, the first two I used are back up.. pop those off, and switch to melee. Thats not skill... its knowledge of what does what.</P> <P>I will agree that, just because a ranger should be able to do something, doesnt mean he will... Some ppl are just lazy, others are just totally clueless. Skill, however, is still not a factor.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I Disagree Terri, skill IS a factor. Your very last sentence even points to that - 'others are just totally clueless'. I assume you mean they lack the skill by that statement - assuming that 'skill' with the Ranger class also includes knowledge of the class? You cannot seperate knowledge of a class from 'skill' in that class.</P> <P>There are Rangers out there that will not pop melee attacks between autoattacks, there are Rangers that will overwrite autoattacks with long cast CA's - those things, amongst manuy others, display a lack of skill and it will be contributing to their lower DPS. </P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[dancer]

personally if your gonna try to play the "skill" card... its only viable against those in 6th grade and below.   Cause as much as we all wanna believe that "skill" is a huge factor in eq2... by level 70, it isnt.   Its pretty much clicking on timed buttons in a sequence, most of the time very very little variation.     If thats skill, than the word has a broader definition than I would argue any word in existance deserves lol. 

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dancerfe wrote:<BR> personally if your gonna try to play the "skill" card... its only viable against those in 6th grade and below.   Cause as much as we all wanna believe that "skill" is a huge factor in eq2... by level 70, it isnt.   Its pretty much clicking on timed buttons in a sequence, most of the time very very little variation.     If thats skill, than the word has a broader definition than I would argue any word in existance deserves lol. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Agree.  If I had to guess, I'd say EQ2 is the most popular MMO amongst people with Downs Syndrome.  Don't get me wrong, I really like EQ2 a lot.  But skill isn't much of a factor at the higher levels.

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>TerriBlades wrote:</P> <P>I will agree that, just because a ranger should be able to do something, doesnt mean he will... Some ppl are just lazy, others are just totally clueless. Skill, however, is still not a factor.<BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I Disagree Terri, skill IS a factor. Your very last sentence even points to that - 'others are just totally clueless'. I assume you mean they lack the skill by that statement - assuming that 'skill' with the Ranger class also includes knowledge of the class? You cannot seperate knowledge of a class from 'skill' in that class.</P> <P>There are Rangers out there that will not pop melee attacks between autoattacks, there are Rangers that will overwrite autoattacks with long cast CA's - those things, amongst manuy others, display a lack of skill and it will be contributing to their lower DPS.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Even the completely clueless are capable of mashing buttons...</P> <P>Button mashing does not equate to skill. I know at the moment we are debating semantics.</P> <P>Yes, it takes a decent working knowledge of the class to play it properly, that is true, and I will concede the point... and that might be where the underlying "skill" term is implied, but I still say its knowledge rather then skill.<BR></P>

[Mirdo]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Mirdo wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>TerriBlades wrote:</p> <p>I will agree that, just because a ranger should be able to do something, doesnt mean he will... Some ppl are just lazy, others are just totally clueless. Skill, however, is still not a factor.</p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I Disagree Terri, skill IS a factor. Your very last sentence even points to that - 'others are just totally clueless'. I assume you mean they lack the skill by that statement - assuming that 'skill' with the Ranger class also includes knowledge of the class? You cannot seperate knowledge of a class from 'skill' in that class.</p> <p>There are Rangers out there that will not pop melee attacks between autoattacks, there are Rangers that will overwrite autoattacks with long cast CA's - those things, amongst manuy others, display a lack of skill and it will be contributing to their lower DPS.</p> <p>Mirdo.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Even the completely clueless are capable of mashing buttons...</p> <p>Button mashing does not equate to skill. I know at the moment we are debating semantics.</p> <p>Yes, it takes a decent working knowledge of the class to play it properly, that is true, and I will concede the point... and that might be where the underlying "skill" term is implied, but I still say its knowledge rather then skill.</p><hr></blockquote>I know it's semantics <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />BUT, how do you seperate 'knowledge' from 'skill', in terms of 'playing a class' in EQ2. Can there be real skill without in-depth knowldege? That's more of a hypothetical question - happy to let this lay <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As to the person arguing about 6th graders, I disagree. I am a 'mature' player. I have played with people in their 50's that aren't necessarily that interested in the latest techniques or are the fastest players. They are certainly way above 6th grade intelligence. Not everybody that plays this game is a teenager or even in their 20's with caffeine fuelled reflexes.Mirdo.</div>

[RagingWolf]

<P>I agree something has to be done with our dpsing, not many should be out dpsing Rangers, not even assassins because they are not as focused on using as many arrows as we are, they are more melee.  Come on SOE, show some courtesy, give us back our dps, help a brotha out, we rangers are in demand for some help.</P> <P>oh well I tried, guess we can wait and see.</P> <P>~Ragingwolf</P> <P>70 Ranger</P> <P>Oasis server</P>

[Malchore]

<P>I'm only a 47 ranger and I know therefore my opinions don't count :smileywink:</P> <P>But...Where was it ever written or stated by a dev that Rangers are SUPPOSED to be the top DPS class in the game?  Has anyone access to secret EQ2 design docs that have said this?</P> <P>And why shouldn't Assassins out DPS a Ranger?  I mean, the "Evil" version of all other classes in the game out damages their "Good" counterpart.  Inquisitors do more damage than Templars.  Same with Coercers, Brigands and Furys.</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RagingWolf wrote:<BR> <P>I agree something has to be done with our dpsing, not many should be out dpsing Rangers, not even assassins because they are not as focused on using as many arrows as we are, they are more melee.  Come on SOE, show some courtesy, give us back our dps, help a brotha out, we rangers are in demand for some help.</P> <P>oh well I tried, guess we can wait and see.</P> <P>~Ragingwolf</P> <P>70 Ranger</P> <P>Oasis server</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You again? haha please.. oh god please tell me that your raid on Sunday. Cause I will log in Sunday, do your stupid Lab trash raid with whatever [Removed for Content] [I cannot control my vocabulary] group you put me in and I'll be you 10p I'll not only kick your [I cannot control my vocabulary] on the parse, but everyone elses in the raid. </P> <P>Ranger DPS is fine at end game. You... not so endgame. You want it. Earn it.</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malchore wrote:<BR> <P>I'm only a 47 ranger and I know therefore my opinions don't count :smileywink:</P> <P>But...Where was it ever written or stated by a dev that Rangers are SUPPOSED to be the top DPS class in the game?  Has anyone access to secret EQ2 design docs that have said this?</P> <P>And why shouldn't Assassins out DPS a Ranger?  I mean, the "Evil" version of all other classes in the game out damages their "Good" counterpart.  Inquisitors do more damage than Templars.  Same with Coercers, Brigands and Furys.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its not stated anywhere that rangers are supposed to be THE top DPS class in game. It is however widely known, and once even posted in these very forums that Tier 1 DPS classes are.</P> <P>Ranger, Assassin, Wizard and Warlock.</P> <P>In no particular order. </P> <P>Of course after all the moaning started, they retracted the statement. Problem is... you cant really retract a statement like that.</P> <P>The Good v/s Evil thing... Means notta, nothing zilch. </P> <P>And for the record. Furys are a neutral class, they can be in Freeport and Qeynos.</P>

[Nak]

<blockquote><hr>Malchore wrote:<div></div> <p>And why shouldn't Assassins out DPS a Ranger?  I mean, the "Evil" version of all other classes in the game out damages their "Good" counterpart.  Inquisitors do more damage than Templars.  Same with Coercers, Brigands and <i><b>Furys</b></i>.</p><hr></blockquote>last time i checked, furies? or maybe it is furys idk ... yeah pretty sure they're neutral, also i tend to see conjs on average doing more dps then their evil counterpart...but then again [I cannot control my vocabulary] do i know anyway... no one is always at the top never ever ever ever ever 100% #1 dps... I've seen a necro on top, swashy on top, brigand on top, assassin on top, wizard on top, myself on top, warlock on top, and a conj on top... theres just too many variables for anyone to always be on top, whether its a crit, low hit, miss, abilities up, group set up last raid in fth i was on top with around 1850 dps zone wide with bazzy + sarnak, next time we go there i might be around 1600 dps and 4th overall doing the same exact thing...a ranger with good set up + skill has potential to be #1, and i'd say some classes are more likely to be on top then others, usually seeing a ranger/assassin/conj on top the most from raids I attend. in short...[I cannot control my vocabulary] your not going to be on the top all the time, the assassins not going to be on top all the time, no ones going to be on top all the time...ever and unlike kos, eof has a lot more deadlier ae's where range plays a factor, ranged dps is a big benefit which people severely underestimate when comparing it to debuffs ect, thats what rangers bring to a raid ranged dps<div></div>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Malchore wrote: <div></div> <p>I'm only a 47 ranger and I know therefore my opinions don't count :smileywink:</p> <p>But...Where was it ever written or stated by a dev that Rangers are SUPPOSED to be the top DPS class in the game?  Has anyone access to secret EQ2 design docs that have said this?</p> <p>And why shouldn't Assassins out DPS a Ranger?  I mean, the "Evil" version of all other classes in the game out damages their "Good" counterpart.  Inquisitors do more damage than Templars.  Same with Coercers, Brigands and Furys.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Its not stated anywhere that rangers are supposed to be THE top DPS class in game. It is however widely known, and once even posted in these very forums that Tier 1 DPS classes are.</p> <p>Ranger, Assassin, Wizard and Warlock.</p> <p>In no particular order. </p> <p>Of course after all the moaning started, they retracted the statement. Problem is... you cant really retract a statement like that.</p> <p>The Good v/s Evil thing... Means notta, nothing zilch. </p> <p>And for the record. Furys are a neutral class, they can be in Freeport and Qeynos.</p><hr></blockquote>Granted I have not played with a lot of wiz/war, and I am by no means 'endgame' (I do have a lot of fabled, but I don't have T8 ammo, or high end bow) I rarely see ANY of those at the top of the parse. I can keep up with our assassin, usually, but I've been out-parsed by monks and guards regularly (so has our assassin). Summoners almost always top the charts.As far as pick-up raids, I rarely see anyone outside our guild on the parser. I don't think a lot of them try (after all - it IS a pick-up, just give me loot).</div>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV>Prior to my leaving of D12, we had 2 Locks and a Wizzy. Ive seen the Wizard push some really nice numbers, but that was rare. Our Warlocks on the other hand. Domination. When we had 2, they were always 1-2 on the parse. When we were down to 1, almost always in that first spot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There was a time, not that long ago, that I had my fits with parsing near or around fighter classes and losing out to brigand. Those days (thank heavens) are over. I dont need to be number 1 on the parse... I just need my DPS to be competitive.</DIV>