Utility...Hmmmm.

[Deaudlus]

First off a little disclaimer.  I have only been playing for about 2  months.  I was recruited into a small guild at lvl 10 to basicly be "raised" to be a raider.  My guild currently raids once or twice a week.  My "main" is currently a lvl 43 swashie.  As I do not currently raid I will not attempt to speak to such things. I will only speak to the content I am currently expirencing.  Secondly, this is not a "RANGERS ARE FINE QUIT CRYING" post.   Anyway, on to the good stuff.I am the type of person that takes my MMO's fairly seriously.  It is one of my 2 major hobbies (disc golf being the 2nd) And it being winter, Indiana isnt a great place to be disc golfing at the time so the majority of my free time is spent playing EQ2.   Because I tend to take my MMO's pretty serious I did a good deal of research before picking my "Main".  I knew I wanted to play a scout but wasnt sure which one.  It was between ranger and swashie.I setteled on swashie for one major reason.  From my research I gathered that swashies had alot more of this so called "utility"  The way I saw it a ranger had higher DPS then a swashie but lacked utility.  Well, I figured I would be better off having a bit less DPS but being able to bring multiple skills to a group.  One other thing I should say as far as disclaimer.  I like my swashie and he is fun to play.  I am not bashing them.I am currently lvl 44 so most of my expirence has been in places like RoV, perma frost, etc.  As far as utility goes, I have come to the conclusion that is is about as important as a warm bucket of hamster vomit.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm sure that the fact that most of my CA's have a debuff effect IS helping the group, but the fact remains that no one cares.  I really belive that if those attacks didnt have debuffs, no one would be the wiser.  I'm not the type of person that requires a constant patting on the back, but it would be nice to actully SEE that my abilites are helping the group.  I think that as far as most people are concerned, unless your "utility' is a really good mez (even with master1 my disarming grin only works about 50 percent of the time) then you dont  really have much utility.Thats where I think rangers have the edge.  Your DPS.  You dont try to be any thing else.  You are pure DPS plain and simple.  You kill [Removed for Content] and honestly you do it better than I do.  The one thing that I have seen break up groups more then anything is speed (well, A crappy tank is probably tied with that spot).  If a group isnt mowing down mobs and the xp isnt flowing in at a near lightspeed pace people start getting mad and leaving.  Honestly, I think  a ranger helps to bring those mobs down at that light speed pace more then a swashie does.I guess my point here is that from what I have seen thus far in the game (in terms of non raiding) that utility isnt really all I had hoped it would be.  If I was a group leader and was lacking DPS and opened up my LFG window and saw a even lvl swashie and ranger, I would take the ranger.  Maybe it would be a mistake but from what I have seen this seems like the way it is.  Now from a raiding perspective all I can do is speculate.  Maybe in a raid situation there really are swashies out there out parsing rangers but from what I have heard a equally geared equally skilled ranger WILL out dps a swashie.  Maybe those swashie debuffs really do make a hufe difference in a raid setting but  If I was a raid leader and I had 10 DPS slots open and I had my choice of nothing but rangers and swashies I dont see any reason not to take 9 rangers and 1 swashie.  If I could take my lvl 44 swashie and hit a button and magicly transform him to a lvl 44 ranger I think I would be hard pressed to convince myself not to do it.  Just a few thoughts. <div></div>

[Starness]

<DIV>There's a few issues here that you prolly haven't run into because you've yet to hit the high end raiding content. First, in groups debuffs are way less noticable, and honestly, even in raids it's hard to really notice they're there. However, when they aren't there in a raid, you can notice if you know what to look for. So, debuff utility is better than a warm bucket of hampster vomit, but mostly only in raids. If it helps in groups (which I'm sure it does) it's not really noticable as you've said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, DPS wise a good, well speced, well equiped swashy can currently give a ranger a run for their money DPS wise. I don't care that much myself. From my POV the more DPS my raid has the faster the mob dies. If the swashys and brigs are up at the top with the rangers and assassins that's just more stabity death for the mob. Of course all this killer DPS requires the right AA spec, the gear to go with it, and the right player behind the keys. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course I also think (baring the arrow issue and the drop rate of good bows vs good DWs issue) that rangers are doing pretty well in EoF. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Caliga]

Awwww....I feel loved.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div>OMG a fellow Hoosier!I'm near Greenwood. Whereabouts are you? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Also don't forget that buffs are also a form of utility that many players consider important in group mates.  It's not just outward indicators of what you're doing, but those passive ones, too.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TaleraRis on <span class=date_text>01-11-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:09 AM</span>

[Gnome mercy]

<DIV>Well Mr. Swashy, I just got a few comments to say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest your debuffs help us rangers dps much better than you think, sadly I watched this myself (I wasn't playing the ranger sadly) but we were in a CT raid, we did an instance with just this ranger as our only scout class, and parsed just over 1k like 1050 or so it barely hit the mark. Then the next instance we did next week the same one we had a swashy tag along, and that was the only class difference, and with the swashy not only did the mob die faster bu tthe ranger parsed a 1.3kdps which is bloody nice. Now I'm not sure if someone did something different or if the swashy just did that much but it was a huge increase and it only happened when that swashy showed up. So pretty much you guys help us dps</DIV>

[Deaudlus]

As far north as you can get without being in Michigan, IE South Bend area.  Even though we havent got much this year, "Lake effect" is the buzz word around here <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Deaudlus]

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that your guys are uber and overpowered and swashiessuck.  I'm not saying that our debuffs are useless.  I'm saying that in the general scope of a group, at the end of the day most people are going to find the DPS number more important then someone debuffing.  If there was a debuffing parse would anyone really care?  I guess I look at it like this.  To make a group run effectively at a decent pace you HAVE to have tanking, healing and DPS.   Sure, debuffing is nice but it isnt required.  Something else I would also like to say.  I'm sure some of my thoughts on this is a simple case of the "Grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome. For whatever reason I have a tendency to gravitate towards non pure classes.  Played a red mage in FFXI, Pally in WoW and a trader in AO.  Even though I always WANT to play a pure tanking or DPS class I never seem to end up doing it and then regret not being the "best" at something.  I enjoy my swashie.  I love the game play and I love the "image" of it.  I have alot of fun playing him and that should be enough for me but sometimes I get a bit insecure.  I don't want to be the "pity" invite even though I know 99 percent of the time I'm not.  Guess its a touch of OCD <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Hisvet]

<P>I think you are absolutely right in that an even geared swashy and an even geared ranger will be tag teaming for that dps, maybe even an edge to the ranger.  Problem is, its currently a LOT easeir to equip the swashy then the ranger, given the scarcity of bows and how absolutely defining and dependent our dps is on that bow, or really, mutliple bows.</P> <P>We have 6 raiding lvl 70 rangers, we have 2 raiding swashies.  We work our finger to the bone with all the tricks we know and usually the swashies can consistanly maintain dps sev eral hundred above us on almost all encounters.  He's geared for it.  Not a single one of the rangers have a bow better than Grizzles or Raincaller, we don't have T8 ammo, we've been waiting for 6 months for any sort of nice bow to drop, its becoming an unhealthy situation.</P> <P>Not only that but those EOF instances are almost all yellow and orange critters.  Debuffs are absolutely essential to hit the suckers.  Don't downgrade your debuffs, make them more effective.  Taking down labs is a walk in the park, taking down the mobs in EoF instances have a lot more resists and tricks and hits.  So...be proud to be a swashbuckler, you solo [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well, half the time I do instances its with a swashbuckler as the TANK from Halls of Fate to SoS to Obelisk, to Varsoons you do just fine.  Being able to tank THAT well, and aoe damage that consistantly and STILL beat us most of the time in raid dps AND help all the rest of the people hit as well?  thats just....thank SOE, and thank the swashbuckler brotherhood.</P> <P>I thank you for the kudos on the dps, we don't just work for it, we pay for it.  You can thank your local ranger by footing some of their ammo bill and grouping with them.  Scouts do help other scouts kill things pretty well.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>