Enhance: Stream of Arrows - why?

[TimidMou]

<DIV>Why would anyone enhance stream of arrows? Is there any situation when this would be useful?</DIV>

[Judist]

<P>Ninja AFK's...</P> <P>/gsay Using stream of arrows, rooted and stifled...</P> <P>Then you go get a drink.</P> <P> </P>

[Wil81115]

<DIV>In LONG fights when I have less then 150 mana, </DIV> <DIV>all my shards and hearts are gone, manastone is on the timer, </DIV> <DIV>mana potion is on the timer, and i still need to do dps..</DIV> <DIV>It does turn off when you run out of mana also.</DIV> <DIV>I have T8 ammo and Recuvred Heartstinger so my auto attacks & CA's is > Stream..</DIV> <DIV>your milage may very.  If you have T7 arrows and a less then 90DR bow I'd say use it.</DIV>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wil81115 wrote:<div>In LONG fights when I have less then 150 mana, </div> <div>all my shards and hearts are gone, manastone is on the timer, </div> <div>mana potion is on the timer, and i still need to do dps..</div> <div>It does turn off when you run out of mana also.</div> <div>I have T8 ammo and Recuvred Heartstinger so my auto attacks & CA's is > Stream..</div> <div>your milage may very.  If you have T7 arrows and a less then 90DR bow I'd say use it.</div><hr></blockquote>I was under the impression that auto-attack did more DPS than stream, at least with any kind of haste mod. ESPECIALLY with T8 arrows...They even nerfed the keeping stream up while feared bonus <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wil81115 wrote:<BR> <DIV>In LONG fights when I have less then 150 mana, </DIV> <DIV>all my shards and hearts are gone, manastone is on the timer, </DIV> <DIV>mana potion is on the timer, and i still need to do dps..</DIV> <DIV>It does turn off when you run out of mana also.</DIV> <DIV>I have T8 ammo and Recuvred Heartstinger so my auto attacks & CA's is > Stream..</DIV> <DIV>your milage may very.  If you have T7 arrows and a less then 90DR bow I'd say use it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I was under the impression that auto-attack did more DPS than stream, at least with any kind of haste mod. ESPECIALLY with T8 arrows...<BR><BR>They even nerfed the keeping stream up while feared bonus <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, I've been looking at this.  And I'm not so sure auto-attack <STRONG><EM><U>alone</U></EM></STRONG> is better than stream, especially if SoA is enhanced.</P> <P>Do the math.  Assume your average SoA attack is 1200.  And that it fires every 1.5 secs (or use 1 sec).  Assume a 30 sec fight.  Now what does your average bow autoattack hit have to be with, say your own self-haste, in order for your bow autoattack to be better than SoA?  Then ask yourself, are you parsing that kind of average bow autoattack?  I think you might be surprised at the results.</P> <P>One thing to bear in mind is the nerf to haste that was done for EoF.  It kinda changes things.</P>

[Balerius]

<P>OK, so I've been looking at SoA.  Common wisdom is that it is a PoS.  And that Enhancing a PoS CA will only be a waste of AAs.  But is that true?  I thought I'd do a quick analysis.</P> <P>Now before you look at the graph, it's important to note that:</P> <P>I'm only comparing SoA against straight ranged autoattack.  Now, to some extent, it's an unrealistic comparison since we normally intersperse ranged CAs with our autoattacks.  Understand that I realize this.  Only you can factor this into this analysis based on your own situations and playstyle.</P> <P>There are some baseline assumptions in the analysis:</P> <P>1) Average ranged autoattack damage is 4500 per shot.  I used this because this is what I happened to parse last night in HoS.  Please bear in mind that for this parse I was using a Sarnak Bow with T8 ammo and had pretty good autoattack dps buffs.</P> <P>2) Average SoA attack damage was 1150 per shot.  I used this value because that's about what I've seen in parsing the last two raids I've been on.</P> <P>3) I used 32 seconds as the duration of the analysis.  Because I felt like it.</P> <P>4) I assumed ranged autoattack would fire as soon as SoA finished.  This accounts for the step up attack damage at the end of the SoA lines.  It should properly be counted as damage from using SoA for the analysis duration of 32 secs.</P> <P>5)  The output graphs are smoothed/linear.  I understand that to a purist, the actual damage output would be a step function based on each arrow fired.  However, we're dealing with averages here with variations of damage for each shot.  So in my opinion, a linear output makes as much sense.  Plus, it's easier to read.</P> <P>So here are the results.  Interpretation after the graph.</P> <P><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Balerius/SoA.png"></P> <P> </P> <P>So what does it mean?</P> <P>1) SoA is actually better than ranged autoattack if your haste is 43 (self buff) or 66 (self buff + 23 haste item) if SoA is allowed to run to conclusion.  If SoA does not run to conclusion, however, ranged autoattack is better.  With any haste over about 66, ranged autoattack is better than regular SoA.</P> <P>2) If only self buffed at 43 haste (self buff) or 66 haste (self buff + 23 haste item), Enhanced SoA is better than ranged autoattack at any length of time over 10 secs.</P> <P>2) At 100 haste, Enhanced SoA is considerably better than ranged autoattack if allowed to run beyond about 17 secs.</P> <P>3) At 125 haste, ranged autoattack and enhanced SoA are essentially equal if ESoA runs the entire duration.  Anything less than ESoA running its duration and ranged autoattack is better.</P> <P>4) At any haste value above 125, ranged autoattack is better than Enhanced SoA.</P> <P>Important factors:</P> <P>1) I used 4500 as my average autoattack damage.  That's fairly high.  If yours isn't that high, then you need to consider that SoA and ESoA would be relatively even better since the are less affected by buffs.  So subjectively adjust the above graphs accordingly.</P> <P>2) I used 1150 as my average SoA hit.  That's with M1 SoA and somewhere around 600-650 str.  If your CA or str is different, make appropriate subjective adjustments to the above SoA lines.</P> <P>Conclusion:</P> <P>SoA is not a PoS.  Ranged autoattack is not always better than SoA.  Enhancing SoA is not necessarily a waste of AAs.  Your typical group makeup for haste and dps buffs as well as your equipment will determine the actual "crossover" point in damage output where you should choose autoattack over SoA.  But the point is, that for many rangers, using SoA is a better choice than they may realize.</P>

[Kitsune286]

I use the fully enchanced SoA on The Corsolander and other similar mobs like it where I cannot melee. I like to pop ethier of the dps encancments (focus aim | killing instinct) before popping SoA in times of low power. Almost always critting for 15 seconds straight produces some nice numbers. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Also, gotta remember that SoA will proc your poisons and other stuff to, so the faster you pitch out arrows, the more you are to proc. Of course, you run out of arrows faster too.../wants a ammo-summoning bow<div></div>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>Balerius, nice post.  Great info and it matches my own testing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoA definetly has a place for most rangers ... it will come down to your own equipment/buff setup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your figures also show autoattack dmg for a very twinked out ranger, that so few rangers have ... but it does provide a great guide to the breakeven lines on an optimal setup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My own testing, has SoA DPS b/w 1200-1250 for all zones.  That's also without putting AA into its enchancement, which makes me wonder how much better it can get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Re: SoA, there's a certain end boss that SoA works great against.  I accidently found out about it a few months ago, and it gave me a massive dps boost for the encounter.  Haven't been back since EoF to test again.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>This question is full of holes, to answer it properly I need to know how well you are geared.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are a few main factors to this equation the first on is what bow you are using.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For people who are using a bow with a damage rating 95 and below SoA will become useful to you over auto attack since the average auto attack hit will be around 4000.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the people who are using a 95 dr or higher bow, do not get the SoA enhancement because your average auto attack should be aboue 5500.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For people with T8 ammo and a 95 dr bow or higher your average auto attack should be a little over 6000 on average.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now here are the things you need to take into consideration...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you plan on using SoA then do not use caustic posions, use hemotoxins. ( hemo toxis will out dps caustic due to the proc rate for using SoA)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Auto attack proc rate is far greater that that of SoA so you will get weapon / posion procs more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottem line is depending on your bow, SoA will be useful or now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV> <DIV>70 Ranger Najena</DIV> <DIV>Second Dawn</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AfflictedOne]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kitsune86 wrote:Also, gotta remember that SoA will proc your poisons and other stuff to, so the faster you pitch out arrows, the more you are to proc. Of course, you run out of arrows faster too...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually this isn't true.  The numbers for procs will be way less with SoA than autoattack.  The proc rate is based off the speed of your weapon or the cast time of the combat art.  For instance a longbow with a 8.5 delay will have a 70% chance at procing poison per attack and an 85% chance of triggering the frenzy line.  Where as the 1.5 second cast of SoA will only have a 12.5 % chance of tiggering poison and a 15% chance to tigger frenzy.When you take into consideration that the bow is actually firing at 5.1 delay self buffed with 23% haste item equipped then you have ~8.2 procs of poison per minute instead of the 4.9 that is shown and 9.4 procs per minute of frenzy lineWith the enhanced SoA you have 7.5 procs of poison per minute and 9 procs of frenzy.  Of course then you have to take into consideration that now we have that 10% chance of double attack not to mention the 25% buff from illusionists.  Course then you also have to consider the additional haste procs from imbued rings  and haste from illusionists, monks, and troubadors.  Which will again increase the proc numbers per minute of autoattack.This isn't even taking into consideration the loss of dps from combat arts that are sitting unused while SoA is casting.  The same combat arts that can fit seamlessly between autoattacks.oh yeah one more quick thing...<blockquote><hr>Kitsune86 wrote:I like to pop ethier of the dps encancments (focus aim | killing instinct) before popping SoA in times of low power.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Focus aim can help SoA due to the crit chance.  Killing instinct will do nothing and is a waste since +DPS  has no effect on combat arts.  So save it till after SoA <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And if you don't have it pickup Honed Reflexes Adept III from your local jeweler to use with killing instinct.</div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aroumon wrote:<BR> <DIV>This question is full of holes, to answer it properly I need to know how well you are geared.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are a few main factors to this equation the first on is what bow you are using.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For people who are using a bow with a damage rating 95 and below SoA will become useful to you over auto attack since the average auto attack hit will be around 4000.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the people who are using a 95 dr or higher bow, do not get the SoA enhancement because your average auto attack should be aboue 5500.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For people with T8 ammo and a 95 dr bow or higher your average auto attack should be a little over 6000 on average.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now here are the things you need to take into consideration...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you plan on using SoA then do not use caustic posions, use hemotoxins. ( hemo toxis will out dps caustic due to the proc rate for using SoA)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Auto attack proc rate is far greater that that of SoA so you will get weapon / posion procs more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottem line is depending on your bow, SoA will be useful or now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV> <DIV>70 Ranger Najena</DIV> <DIV>Second Dawn</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well I did say that each person needs to evaluate his/her gear, buffs, and haste and adjust the graphs I posted accordingly.  What I posted is valid for the conditions I stated:  average autoattack bow damage of 4500 and average SoA hit of 1150.</P> <P>Where we probably disagree is your assertion that a bow with a DR of 95 is some kind of absolute determining factor.  I don't believe it is.  First, as I stated, you also have to factor in your haste/dps buffs.  Bow DR and arrow type are important to be sure.  But so is your haste, str, dps buffs, and crit chance buffs.</P> <P>Lastly, I would caution any reader to actually parse your average autoattack and SoA damage.  If you think you are going to routinely parse <STRONG><EM>average</EM></STRONG> hits of 6K with a bow with a 95+ DR and T8 ammo, as claimed above, I think you will be sadly disappointed.</P> <P>But in any event, use the graph or not.  It's up to each player.  But I suggest you make your decision based on real parsed data for yourself.</P>

[Kitsune286]

<div><blockquote><hr>AfflictedOne wrote: A lot<hr></blockquote>Well, it sure seems like my poisons and quick shot go off alot, and since I usually use SoA after all my ranged and melee attacks are down, I usually wouldn't have anything else to do other than wail on the mob, assuming no up-close AoE.You have an illus in your raid group? Luck son of a ...And none of my guilds jewlers have that book for honed reflexes, I'm stuck with app2 until I find someone who won't charge an insane amount for it.I personally don't care for parses, I just love big numbers. And lots of'm. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>AfflictedOne wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Kitsune86 wrote:Also, gotta remember that SoA will proc your poisons and other stuff to, so the faster you pitch out arrows, the more you are to proc. Of course, you run out of arrows faster too...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually this isn't true.  The numbers for procs will be way less with SoA than autoattack.  The proc rate is based off the speed of your weapon or the cast time of the combat art.  For instance a longbow with a 8.5 delay will have a 70% chance at procing poison per attack and an 85% chance of triggering the frenzy line.  Where as the 1.5 second cast of SoA will only have a 12.5 % chance of tiggering poison and a 15% chance to tigger frenzy.<font color="#ff0000">Actually its the other way around <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> in the SoA AA you have a 10s reduction in duration with the same amount of shots increasing the shot rate.. Then haste only goes up to 125%, the cap for SoA is already at 100% with the aa, so your effectlively doubelling the proc rate. If you shoot 3 shots in 20 seconds, your likely to proc 2-3 times.. If you shoot 27 times with SoA, your going to proc 4 times..</font>When you take into consideration that the bow is actually firing at 5.1 delay self buffed with 23% haste item equipped then you have ~8.2 procs of poison per minute instead of the 4.9 that is shown and 9.4 procs per minute of frenzy lineWith the enhanced SoA you have 7.5 procs of poison per minute and 9 procs of frenzy.  Of course then you have to take into consideration that now we have that 10% chance of double attack not to mention the 25% buff from illusionists.  Course then you also have to consider the additional haste procs from imbued rings  and haste from illusionists, monks, and troubadors.  Which will again increase the proc numbers per minute of autoattack.<font color="#ff0000">Very valid point - and this is why this discussion will go on a while <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font>This isn't even taking into consideration the loss of dps from combat arts that are sitting unused while SoA is casting.  The same combat arts that can fit seamlessly between autoattacks.(snipped part below)<blockquote><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">And bal - nice lil graph there.. Pat yourself on the back.</font></div><hr></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>01-01-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 AM</span>

[Prandtl]

I find SoA useful on mobs that fear.  Since we are rooted and dazed, the fear has no effect and we keep plinking arrows.  Its always amusing to see everyone else on the raid wandering around aimlessly while I am still firing away.  At least until my hate gets above the tanks..

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prandtl wrote:<BR> I find SoA useful on mobs that fear.  <STRONG>Since we are rooted and dazed, the fear has no effect and we keep plinking arrows</STRONG>.  Its always amusing to see everyone else on the raid wandering around aimlessly while I am still firing away.  At least until my hate gets above the tanks..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's been "fixed.":smileytongue:</P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Prandtl wrote: <div></div>I find SoA useful on mobs that fear.  <strong>Since we are rooted and dazed, the fear has no effect and we keep plinking arrows</strong>.  Its always amusing to see everyone else on the raid wandering around aimlessly while I am still firing away.  At least until my hate gets above the tanks.. <hr> </blockquote> <p>That's been "fixed.":smileytongue:</p><hr></blockquote>Tee'd me off to no end... we suddenly become 'unrooted'??? BS</div>