What else does ranger bring to the table?

[Deaudlus]

I started the game a few weeks back and have been having alot of fun.  Ranger was my first choice of class but my wife decided on a wizard so I decided to go with a monk because it would make a better fit with a wizard.  Well, at this point my monk is lvl 33 and since shes been working alot shes at 27.  I figured that now would be a good time to try ranger out a bit.  The other nice thing is that we joined a VERY helpfull guild in that we pretty much always have access to a tank and healer if we need one.  I'm thinking that if I wanted to play ranger I could probably lvl one up to where my wife is fairly fast.Now on to the ranger stuff.  From what I understand from doing a bit of research is that rangers are good DPS (Not top dog but still good).  My question is this.  What else does a ranger bring to the table to make up for that 300-500 DPS gap between rangers and casters?  What kind of utilitiy does a ranger have?  Buffs?  If possible, would a  raid prefer to take 5 casters for DPS they just dont because they dont have access to that many?Arrows.  I hear alot of complaints about arrow consumption and they seem to be valid complaints.  One of the wizards in my guild said that at lvl 70 he can make about 2 plat an hour soloing and selling the vendor junk.  I've seen on these boards that most rangers spend 1-2 plat a raid on arrows.  farming for an hour to be able to raid doesnt seem all that bad to me but I came from playing a  ranger in FFXI where you literaly had to spend 3 days farming to be able to afford arrows to lvl for a few hours the next day.  Is affording arrows/posions really that much of  issue that it detracts from the enjoyment of the class?Thats all I can thank of for the time being.  I appericate any respones and advice you can give.Thanks!<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<P>As a class, we don't provide much utility at all.  All our buffs are self-buffs and we have a couple of de-buffs, nothing like the brigands though.  What utility we do have is provided by poisons and AAs, so those are shared with other classes.</P> <P>Arrows is a problem.  Plain and simple.  We have a AA in the EoF tree that can help somewhat, but falls way short of our needs.</P> <P>As far a soloing for plat, we are not anywhere close to being as efficient as wizzy's in soloing.  So 2 plat an hour is kind of a stretch for a Ranger.  But there are other ways to make plat.</P> <P>And, if you play your ranger up past lvl 30, you may never want to go back to your monk.  Rangers are just too fun to play.</P>

[Shadowbain]

<P>Rangers in EQ2 realy dont have a place ever sence the "Class Balance"  they did for the PvP servers rangers are kinda [Removed for Content]. They don't solo well and have no group or raid utility. however Rangers can pump our some good DPS on raids but ONLY if you get a bow that summons t8 arrows and a good fabled bow to shoot them with. Aslo you will need 100 AA's in the right tree and use grand master caustic poison and have the right group makeup on the raid.</P> <P>If a Ranger can get a good fabled bow, have a bow to sumons t8 arrows, use Grandmaster Caustic poison, have 100 AA's and be in the right group on a raid then you bring about 1700 to 2500 DPS on raids. other then that Rangers bring nothing to EQ2 at all. </P> <P>If a ranger dose not have all that stuff then you are looking to be around 800 to 1200 DPS max with nothing ells to offer other then tracking, pathfinding and can pull without line of sight.</P> <P>So in short enless you are in a raid guild that is willing to get you geared up correctly then you have nothing to offer as a Ranger.</P> <P>The down side is more then two Rangers on a raid is a waist of space as there are many other classes that can bring the same DPS with utility to help the raid, so chances of getting into a raid guild at this stage is slim to none.</P> <P>It is no secret that a Rangers DPS for the most part comes from procs based off the long delay of there bow. SOE has done everything they can to make proc gear not work with bows so Rangers dont have a unfair advantage on PvP servers. so entell SOE makes one set of rules for PvP and another for PvE then Rangers have little hope of being top DPS as they used to be befor PvP came to EQ2. Rangers should be top DPS because that is all they bring to this game or maybe they can give us some utility or buffs to help others so Rangers are not black listed from raid guilds as they are now.</P><p>Message Edited by Shadowbain on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 AM</span>

[Mirdo]

I generally bring the biggest pie I can find, halflings eat a lot.Anyway, we often raid with 2 Rangers, doesn't exactly seem to cripple our raids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We are gear dependent however. It's not really possible for us to compete in DPS terms based on just CA quality and AA lines.  As previous posters have said, the bow, ammo and now adornments have a significant impact on your DPS.Mirdo.<div></div>

[Caliga]

Rangers...utility?  Um...we can disarm the chest!  The only group buff we have is pathfinding and all scouts get that.  And the two self buffs we have are +AGI and reduction of hate gain.  We are very slim in the utility department.  As for the cost of arrows it doesn't really start to hurting until about 40, thats when you drop your first plat to fill your quiver.  And farming to make money for arrows would be counterproductive because if you want to kill the greens with any sort of speed you're gonna have to shoot them...with arrows.I'm sure its hard to see why people love their ranger since we are at the point raids laugh at us and the only thing that normalizes us can be found on a raid.  But I wouldn't trade mine for any other class because when there isn't a parser on and someone isn't reminding me how utterly useless I am by asking about utility, I have a pretty good time.<div></div>

[Nulad]

Surveil pulling too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Rangers as already said are just too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] much fun to play, all others = dull and boring (that I've tried)<div></div>

[Amnzero]

<DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>Arrows.  I hear alot of complaints about arrow consumption and they seem to be valid complaints.  One of the wizards in my guild said that at lvl 70 he can make about 2 plat an hour soloing and selling the vendor junk.  I've seen on these boards that most rangers spend 1-2 plat a raid on arrows.  farming for an hour to be able to raid doesnt seem all that bad to me but <STRONG><EM><U>I came from playing a  ranger in FFXI where you literaly had to spend 3 days farming to be able to afford arrows to lvl for a few hours the next day.</U></EM></STRONG>  Is affording arrows/posions really that much of  issue that it detracts from the enjoyment of the class?<BR><BR>Thats all I can thank of for the time being.  I appericate any respones and advice you can give.<BR><BR>Thanks!<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As did I.   It's no where even remotley close to that bad.  Most of the people complaining about it have either:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A.) Never played a ranger in FFXI and as such have no idea what real arrow cost is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B.) Played EQ1 and ARE used to "Endless Quiver" where apparently you never have to buy arrows or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>C.) Dont realize that the arrow you are using <U><EM><STRONG>ONLY AFFECTS RANGED AUTOATTACK</STRONG> </EM></U>not your combat arts or ranged clicky abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or any combination of the 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if your going to be doing alot of duoing with a caster, chances are your going to end up tanking which means no ranged autoattacking for you. so load up on the good ol T1 tin arrows and you'll be fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poisons arent nearly as costly as every makes them out to be. If broker poisons are breaking your wallet, just buy the store bought ones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unlike FFXI if you are too close to a Mob it wont let you use your bow, so no more Slug shot->then cutting your enemy and building TP faster than a SAM.   <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Also no need to shell out cash for shehi</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can level a ranger to 27 fairly easy and it will be mostly melee.  You wont have ALOT of ranged CA's until right around that level anyways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pure utility is minimal, though desired for evac, our pathfinding speed buff is less than spectacular.  People invite us to raids for pure DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That and if you happen to pull aggro (which you will) you wont get ripped to shreds in an instant.  Hell ive been in PuG's(not raids mind you)  with bad tanks, pulled aggro and actually ended up tanking the rest of the group just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>trust me, you'll love it.</DIV>

[Nulad]

<div>As did I.   It's no where even remotley close to that bad.  Most of the people complaining about it have either:</div> <div> </div> <div>A.) Never played a ranger in FFXI and as such have no idea what real arrow cost is.<font color="#6666cc">And what difference does that make to EQ2?</font></div> <div> </div> <div>or</div> <div> </div> <div>B.) Played EQ1 and ARE used to "Endless Quiver" where apparently you never have to buy arrows or something.</div> <div> <font color="#6666ff">I never did get endless quiver, so no, it's not that.</font></div> <div>or</div> <div> </div> <div>C.) Dont realize that the arrow you are using <u><em><strong>ONLY AFFECTS RANGED AUTOATTACK</strong> </em></u>not your combat arts or ranged clicky abilities.<font color="#6666cc">So to save money I should reduce my DPS? name one other class that has to do the same to the same extent that a Ranger does?</font></div> <div> </div> <div>or any combination of the 3.<font color="#6666cc">Most people are complaining about it due to the fact that it's grossly unbalanced, nuff said.</font></div><div></div>

[Amnzero]

<DIV> <DIV>As did I.   It's no where even remotley close to that bad.  Most of the people complaining about it have either:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A.) Never played a ranger in FFXI and as such have no idea what real arrow cost is.<BR><BR><FONT color=#6666cc>And what difference does that make to EQ2?</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#6666cc></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#6666cc><FONT color=#ffff00>The arrow cost in FFXI is absolutley INSANE.  OP wasnt kidding when said farm for days to play for hours</FONT>. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>As such, to those of us who had played it realize how much lower the arrow cost is in this game, in relative terms.</FONT> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>B.) Played EQ1 and ARE used to "Endless Quiver" where apparently you never have to buy arrows or something.</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#6666ff>I never did get endless quiver, so no, it's not that.</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>or</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>C.) Dont realize that the arrow you are using <U><EM><STRONG>ONLY AFFECTS RANGED AUTOATTACK</STRONG> </EM></U>not your combat arts or ranged clicky abilities.<BR><BR><FONT color=#6666cc>So to save money I should reduce my DPS? name one other class that has to do the same to the same extent that a Ranger does?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>IF you are going to be DUOING (which the OP said he would, with his wife who plays a caster) Then chances are he wont be using ranged autoattack, thus buying CHEAP arrows does not hurt his DPS. Much the same with soloing where you open with your BIG Ranged CA's etc etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I agree for a RAID you better shell out the bucks because you might actually use ranged auto unless you are in the "sweet spot" where instead of letting fly with ranged AA and its god awful delay, you would be doing something useful like i dunno... melee CA's maybe in between ranged CA's.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or any combination of the 3.<BR><BR><FONT color=#6666cc>Most people are complaining about it due to the fact that it's grossly unbalanced, nuff said.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Personally I don't find it unbalanced, sure casters can do more damage, but if they do, it kills them. We send more money for damage, but we have a bit of survivability built in. i.e. chain armor.  Besides, when people roll a ranger, they know that most of their DPS will come from arrows, which will have to either be crafted or bought.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV></DIV>

[Deaudlus]

"Also no need to shell out cash for shehi"That brings back memories....<div></div>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Amnzero wrote:<div> <div>As did I.   It's no where even remotley close to that bad.  Most of the people complaining about it have either:</div> <div> </div> <div>A.) Never played a ranger in FFXI and as such have no idea what real arrow cost is.<font color="#6666cc">And what difference does that make to EQ2?</font></div><font color="#6666cc"></font></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#6666cc"><font color="#ffff00">The arrow cost in FFXI is absolutley INSANE.  OP wasnt kidding when said farm for days to play for hours</font>. </font><font color="#ffff00">As such, to those of us who had played it realize how much lower the arrow cost is in this game, in relative terms.</font> <div><font color="#ff33cc">Just because a differnt game was even more unbalanced does not make this one any better, it has nothing to do with it being relative and is an abstract.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>or</div> <div> </div> <div>B.) Played EQ1 and ARE used to "Endless Quiver" where apparently you never have to buy arrows or something.</div> <div><font color="#6666ff">I never did get endless quiver, so no, it's not that.</font></div> <div>or</div> <div> </div> <div>C.) Dont realize that the arrow you are using <u><em><strong>ONLY AFFECTS RANGED AUTOATTACK</strong> </em></u>not your combat arts or ranged clicky abilities.<font color="#6666cc">So to save money I should reduce my DPS? name one other class that has to do the same to the same extent that a Ranger does?</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">IF you are going to be DUOING (which the OP said he would, with his wife who plays a caster) Then chances are he wont be using ranged autoattack, thus buying CHEAP arrows does not hurt his DPS. Much the same with soloing where you open with your BIG Ranged CA's etc etc.</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">I agree for a RAID you better shell out the bucks because you might actually use ranged auto unless you are in the "sweet spot" where instead of letting fly with ranged AA and its god awful delay, you would be doing something useful like i dunno... melee CA's maybe in between ranged CA's.<font color="#ff33cc">Duoing, soloing, whatever, the point being why should I agree to take a cut in DPS to save money, no other class ends up in the same situation. Cheap arrows DO hurt his DPS, maybe not much given the way he fights but they do.</font></font></div> <div> </div> <div>or any combination of the 3.<font color="#6666cc">Most people are complaining about it due to the fact that it's grossly unbalanced, nuff said.</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Personally I don't find it unbalanced, sure casters can do more damage, but if they do, it kills them. We send more money for damage, but we have a bit of survivability built in. i.e. chain armor.  Besides, when people roll a ranger, they know that most of their DPS will come from arrows, which will have to either be crafted or bought.<font color="#ff33cc">Casters dont have to pay to do damage or survive.</font></font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amnzero wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I agree for a RAID you better shell out the bucks because you might actually use ranged auto unless you are in the "sweet spot" where instead of letting fly with ranged AA and its god awful delay, you would be doing something useful like i dunno... melee CA's maybe in between ranged CA's.</FONT><BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you're not letting ranged auto attack go off between CA's, your DPS is down the toilet. This is a HUGE part of our DPS. No, you shouldn't just sit there and plink away with auto attack when you can get in and use your melee CA's, but ignoring how important ranged auto-attack, and therefore tier appropriate arrows, are, is going to guarantee you are nowhere near your full potential.</P> <P>I was doing a pretty steady 1k-1100 DPS in Deathtoll last week. When I ran out of adamantine arrows and had to use tin, my DPS dropped down into the 600 mark.</P>

[Caliga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Amnzero wrote:<div> <div>As did I.   It's no where even remotley close to that bad.  Most of the people complaining about it have either:</div> <div> </div> <div>A.) Never played a ranger in FFXI and as such have no idea what real arrow cost is.<font color="#6666cc">And what difference does that make to EQ2?</font></div><font color="#6666cc"></font></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#6666cc"><font color="#ffff00">The arrow cost in FFXI is absolutley INSANE.  OP wasnt kidding when said farm for days to play for hours</font>. </font><font color="#ffff00">As such, to those of us who had played it realize how much lower the arrow cost is in this game, in relative terms.</font> <div></div> <div> </div> <div>or</div> <div> </div> <div>B.) Played EQ1 and ARE used to "Endless Quiver" where apparently you never have to buy arrows or something.</div> <div><font color="#6666ff">I never did get endless quiver, so no, it's not that.</font></div> <div>or</div> <div> </div> <div>C.) Dont realize that the arrow you are using <u><em><strong>ONLY AFFECTS RANGED AUTOATTACK</strong> </em></u>not your combat arts or ranged clicky abilities.<font color="#6666cc">So to save money I should reduce my DPS? name one other class that has to do the same to the same extent that a Ranger does?</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">IF you are going to be DUOING (which the OP said he would, with his wife who plays a caster) Then chances are he wont be using ranged autoattack, thus buying CHEAP arrows does not hurt his DPS. Much the same with soloing where you open with your BIG Ranged CA's etc etc.</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">I agree for a RAID you better shell out the bucks because you might actually use ranged auto unless you are in the "sweet spot" where instead of letting fly with ranged AA and its god awful delay, you would be doing something useful like i dunno... melee CA's maybe in between ranged CA's.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>or any combination of the 3.<font color="#6666cc">Most people are complaining about it due to the fact that it's grossly unbalanced, nuff said.</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Personally I don't find it unbalanced, sure casters can do more damage, but if they do, it kills them. We send more money for damage, but we have a bit of survivability built in. i.e. chain armor.  Besides, when people roll a ranger, they know that most of their DPS will come from arrows, which will have to either be crafted or bought.</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm the last to claim I know everything.  But lets review what I do know.I KNOW filling all 22 slots in my quiver costs slightly over a plat.I KNOW that I use half those arrows per session (I gain about half a level per session).So don't imply I'm simpy "confused" about what expensive is.</div>

[Mirdo]

<DIV>I'm sorry people had to walk uphill in the snow both ways in some other game but that has no bearing whatsoever on the mechanics of this game. You can repeat how bad it was for you in another game as many times as you like but it won't chamnge the fact that nobody playing EQ2 cares about your issues in othergame_01, they care about EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If players of EQ2 are having some enjoyment of the game removed by a mechanic a number feel is inadequate, they are entitled to present that issue on these boards for consideration by designers. I went through a stage similar to what some are experiencing now. If you are in a guild that raids, you have no summoning bow and play time is relatively limited, paying for poisons and arrows becomes a real issue. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist for some people. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many of the problems faced by classes are relative to the player and their individual circumstance. Where the same points are replayed by different people over a period of time is where some development effort needs to be spent to examine if the issue is as bad as those players perceive it to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In terms of arrows, I know an AA was added to help but I have no idea of it's effectiveness. It's up to the players with the arrow supply problems to evaluate and feed back on the usefullness or otherwise of that skill. What I will say is that somebody who wants to get into raiding or is already probably won't consider an arrow farming AA and would head along the DPS routes instead. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mirdo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[TeflonS7]

I, myself, have a 70 ranger and he is by far my favorite toon.  So much so that he overtook my Berserker as my main.  I'm not real sure on how often the OP will be playing, but I would certainly label myself as being a more than casual player.  I worked nights for a good while and when off work and everyone was asleep I played EQ2.  This would be stretches of 6-8-possibly 12hrs.  Now, once I got my summon arrows ability, I NEVER paid for arrows even ONCE before I started raiding within the last month or so.  And I've been lvl 70 for some time now.  <div></div>

[TheStormrider]

<DIV>I NEVER paid for arrows even ONCE before I started raiding within the last month or so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I call bull-$hit.  Ill accept not that often,  seldom,  rarely,  but NEVER.  In 70 levels.  Never once did you say 'im out of arrows someone have some?' cause those are purchased also.  Now I suppose if you started your ranger day 1,  and have played him all this time,  and just hit 70,  I suppose its possible, i f your patient enough to just not do anything while your out of arrows, but if your actively fighting you cant keep up with demand.  I have to call that one<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Not even tin.  When you had a 12 hour session.  *shrug*.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also,  I duo with a wizzie and a warlock sometimes.  If you duo in a dungeon,  using invisibility to get on top of mobs then killing them,  you may not use auto attack.  But any outdoor zone,  or any place with some space,  your going to use auto attack. Your auto attack goes off after every other CA or so.  You may not realize it.  Now,  youll still hit,  but youll see 128 112 roll by instead of 4099 2100 roll by if you use tin arrows.  Without T8 ammo, and a raincaller,  autoattack is 35% of your dps.  Period.  There is no arguing it.  (That is unless your dps is always 35% lower than most rangers in which case,  your not using your auto attack properly).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can also write a program or use a program to summon arrows all night long and never have to buy them,  but that is against the EULA.<BR><BR>Now you can argue this,  but go ahead and write out the math.  How many arrows can you summon,  how many do you use in a fight.  How long till you can sommon again.  </DIV>

[LoreLady]

Afew debuffs are our utility, and being able to take afew hits to some raidmobs are our utility <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As for DPS - we have our ups and downs as we level, but were pretty equal with wizards as far as that scales..Yes we do have some problems, but I wouldent worry about them for awhile yet.

[Taeolen]

<P>I've never bought any arrows since getting the first arrow summon at level 20.  I bought them up until then.  I'm level 52 and still have not had to buy any arrows.</P> <P>I craft on my Ranger so whenever I am doing that I hit the button.  I keep the summon line at least Adept 3 (Master I if I can find one cheaper on the broker), so I'm summoning either 45 or 60 at a time.  Whenever I am doing anything I always hit the ability when it comes up.</P> <P>I keep my 20 slot quiver full at all times, and have 2 of my bags full of arrows (still have lots an dlots of room to haul off loot in hunting sessions) and not ONCE have I EVER ran out of arrows and had to ask anyone else if they had any or whatever else.</P> <P>I also place top or near the top on every parse in every group I've been in and have no arrow issues ever.</P><p>Message Edited by Taeolen on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:14 AM</span>

[kidpaul]

Im not gonna start with the arrow consumption thing in this thread already other threads for this but stormrider you should check them out since someone already did do the math on arrows.So what do rangers bring to the table except nice dps. well surveil pull has been mention. we have a nice 2k heat mit debuff and a 1k magic mit debuff. we can decrease deflection and parry on the mob with an arrow attack and a normal debuff. we got some real nice snares for kiting. snaring and kiting with the Raincaller is great fun and is enough to take down 68-69 +++ mobs on our own aslong as their is enough terrain to run around on and the Raincaller living up to it's proc rate <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. we have 1 stun, 1 root and 1 knockback "PBS AA". Ohh and there is also the old golden rule about no raid can be succesful without a ranger dying so I guess we are pretty hand <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taeolen wrote:<BR> <P>I've never bought any arrows since getting the first arrow summon at level 20.  I bought them up until then.  I'm level 52 and still have not had to buy any arrows.</P> <P>I craft on my Ranger so whenever I am doing that I hit the button.  I keep the summon line at least Adept 3 (Master I if I can find one cheaper on the broker), so I'm summoning either 45 or 60 at a time.  Whenever I am doing anything I always hit the ability when it comes up.</P> <P>I keep my 20 slot quiver full at all times, and have 2 of my bags full of arrows (still have lots an dlots of room to haul off loot in hunting sessions) and not ONCE have I EVER ran out of arrows and had to ask anyone else if they had any or whatever else.</P> <P>I also place top or near the top on every parse in every group I've been in and have no arrow issues ever.</P> <P>Message Edited by Taeolen on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:14 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What is your plan for when you hit lvl 60?  You still going to use your T6 summoned arrows, or are you going to purchase T7 arrows until you can get reclaimed arrows?  Are you still planning on bringing your "A" game, or will you settle for less DPS?</DIV>

[Taeolen]

<P>I'll do the same thing I've done the previous tiers.  /shrug</P> <P>I'll keep using the arrows I have till I get the upgrade at 62 and build the stock up.  It's worked before and my DPS was just fine.  If my DPS is <EM>that</EM> terrible then I'll decide to buy some arrows.</P> <P>Plus I'll have arrow rip by then and although that won't be enough arrows to create a huge stock it's still a jump start on the next tier.</P> <P>Have done this since level 20 and my DPS has been just fine.  If something magical happens at 60 where suddenly I'll turn into a wet noodle [Removed for Content] because of the arrows then I'll worry about it then.  Either way it's only 2 levels until Reclaimed Arrows.</P><p>Message Edited by Taeolen on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Taeolen wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>I've never bought any arrows since getting the first arrow summon at level 20.  I bought them up until then.  I'm level 52 and still have not had to buy any arrows.</p> <p>I craft on my Ranger so whenever I am doing that I hit the button.  I keep the summon line at least Adept 3 (Master I if I can find one cheaper on the broker), so I'm summoning either 45 or 60 at a time.  Whenever I am doing anything I always hit the ability when it comes up.</p> <p>I keep my 20 slot quiver full at all times, and have 2 of my bags full of arrows (still have lots an dlots of room to haul off loot in hunting sessions) and not ONCE have I EVER ran out of arrows and had to ask anyone else if they had any or whatever else.</p> <p>I also place top or near the top on every parse in every group I've been in and have no arrow issues ever.</p><p>Message Edited by Taeolen on <span class="date_text">12-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:14 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I was in the same boat as you. Until a couple of months ago, I NEVER bought arrows. Now, I'm near the max at tradeskilling and I play an alt a lot. All I REALLY do with my Ranger is raid and assist guildies when they need some DPS. I'm spending 2-5pp for 2-3 raids/week. Since I'm not adventuring much, my money is all but gone. I would hate to have to retire because I can no longer afford to do T2 DPS.</div>

[Hisvet]

<DIV>I wish all rangers luck.  I will say things changed drastically for me when I began to raid.  I had to relearn my class and I'm still learning.  I had to change the way my CAs go I had to change the way I use poisons, I had to hunt for gear, I had to make a ton more arrows, I had to learn to sponge off other classes abilites (Debilitate anyone?) and time my big CAs around their timing and how I invest my time in questing, harvesting and skilling is different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't plan on raiding much I suspect you'll still see increased arrow usage and other things after you're in your 60s.  Your AAs and gear will make it so, your groups will chain pull for hours straight etc.  I only rarely borrowed and bought ammo before 70 so I understand where you're coming from, you can play the stock up game and downtime game easier.  But now....I think, I need to summon more arrows so I'll solo looking for this page....and end up with less arrows then I can summon even while meleeing more than half the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said I do LOVE surveillance and amazing shot pulling.  Its terribly fun and useful.  You can jump up in the air and surveillance pull targets out of line of site.  You can do stream of arrows or hawk dive to get a few extra meters out of your distance pull.  If you haven't gone into Living tombs and jumped a repulsor up towards the ceiling of the cavern to target the hawk on the pillar and then pulled with hawk dive then you should try.  You can set up in a safe room and pull from around the corner down the hall.  The magic debuff only comes if you own the Splitpaw expansion, if you don't then you have the um   heat debuff yay.  And you have the defense debuff which IS nice always try to use it reasonably before your big arrow hits.  Tracking is a great thing, all scouts have it but non scouts don't and its a great thing when questing, exploring and occasionally raiding.  Seeing steath in stealth and pathfinding which all scouts have is handy too.  We can also bring comic relief.  Use all your ranger abilities and you'll be a useful team member.  Perhaps you won't be the most damage all the time but you are valuable, and fun to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Hisvet on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 AM</span>

[athitchcock]

A couple of notes:Surveillance pulling no longer works.Stealth lets us see Invis, not see Stealth.<div></div>

[EomerFarst]

Shiney green relic armor  :smileyindifferent:

[Dragonsword]

All I can say is I love my ranger, I get invites to raid's without problems, the price of arrows if your buying exspensive arrows, dont buy the expensive ones if your raiding, leave the good ones for soloing or make friends with a woodworker, I made my tradeskill for my ranger a woodworker. Dont chuck arrows all the time in a raid, do your melee as well. Get the raincaller it has a nice stun. Then if your not enjoying playing a Ranger then change toons.

[EomerFarst]

I enjoy ranger but I hate stealth nerfs to classes for no perticular reason :smileyindifferent:

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EomerFarstar wrote:<BR> I enjoy ranger but I hate stealth nerfs to classes for no perticular reason :smileyindifferent:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I can't think of any Ranger nerfs off the top of my head that have occurred for 'no particular reason'. I haven't agreed with all the reasons but they have been there.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[EomerFarst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EomerFarstar wrote:<BR> I enjoy ranger but I hate stealth nerfs to classes for no perticular reason :smileyindifferent:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I can't think of any Ranger nerfs off the top of my head that have occurred for 'no particular reason'. I haven't agreed with all the reasons but they have been there.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Surveillance has been nerfed for and no dev explantion given. 

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>EomerFarstar wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Mirdo wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> EomerFarstar wrote: <div></div>I enjoy ranger but I hate stealth nerfs to classes for no perticular reason :smileyindifferent: <hr> </blockquote> <p>I can't think of any Ranger nerfs off the top of my head that have occurred for 'no particular reason'. I haven't agreed with all the reasons but they have been there.</p> <p>Mirdo.</p> <hr> </blockquote>Surveillance has been nerfed for and no dev explantion given. <hr></blockquote>Be honest, you knew it was comming though.</div>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>I sure as hell didn't know.  but then I only read the update notes before I log on.  I didn't even know it was broken.  Please enlighten this ranger.</P> <P>I love my ranger.  My first toon to hit 70.  Don't know if I'll ever get one of those fabled bows that produce arrows or not, but I've had to scale way back on my playing time while I earn the coin to pay for his arrows.  I say make all casters have to buy spell components, Priests to buy sacrficial items to get their spells, and melee'rs weapons and shields to have to roll for a chance to break beyond repair, and thus need replacing.  that way my ranger might be able to earn his keep through his chosen skill of weaponsmithing.</P>

[EomerFarst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Be honest, you knew it was comming though.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never expected 'surv' to be nerfed.  I always though though point of being Ranger/Predator was to be to selectivly pick your prey and guide your team to safety by  pulling without social aggro :smileyindifferent:.</P> <P>I'd really like some type of explanation from the devs why it's been made useless  now</P><p>Message Edited by EomerFarstar on <span class=date_text>12-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 AM</span>

[Gerdos]

<P><BR>Surveillance is not useless, just limited.  If you could upgrade it, i  would recommend it .. the deagro on it still makes it valuable for a high dps predator.</P> <P>We didn't get the ability to use that line to pull mobs without drawing social agro, until we hit level 70.  Whether that was a deliberate aspect brought in for Surveillance which wasn't there for the earlier versions, is something no ranger knows for sure, the only thing we know for sure is that Surveillance gave us a benefit that the earlier versions didn't .. and it was brought back in line to its original CA line mechanics.</P> <P>Reading the update notes does make it appear the change was brought in for PvP reasons ... /shrug</P> <P>  </P> <P> </P>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>Gerdos wrote</P> <P></P> <HR> Surveillance is not useless, just limited.  If you could upgrade it, i  would recommend it .. the deagro on it still makes it valuable for a high dps predator. <P>We didn't get the ability to use that line to pull mobs without drawing social agro, until we hit level 70.  Whether that was a deliberate aspect brought in for Surveillance which wasn't there for the earlier versions, is something no ranger knows for sure, the only thing we know for sure is that Surveillance gave us a benefit that the earlier versions didn't .. and it was brought back in line to its original CA line mechanics.</P> <P>Reading the update notes does make it appear the change was brought in for PvP reasons ... /shrug</P> <P></P> <HR> What update notes are you referring to?  I cannot find any mention for surveillance, rangers or anything pertaining to this subject in the last weeks worth of notes.  Just curious as to where your information is coming from.  You can't toss a statement out like that with nothing else and expect it to stand on its own.  Where's the beef?

[Squigglle]

i rly enjoy my ranger, its the skill that it needs that makes it fun. and sometimes u win, sometimes u dont....:smileyhappy:

[Gareorn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badaxe Bart wrote:<BR> <P>Gerdos wrote</P> <P></P> <HR> Surveillance is not useless, just limited.  If you could upgrade it, i  would recommend it .. the deagro on it still makes it valuable for a high dps predator. <P>We didn't get the ability to use that line to pull mobs without drawing social agro, until we hit level 70.  Whether that was a deliberate aspect brought in for Surveillance which wasn't there for the earlier versions, is something no ranger knows for sure, the only thing we know for sure is that Surveillance gave us a benefit that the earlier versions didn't .. and it was brought back in line to its original CA line mechanics.</P> <P>Reading the update notes does make it appear the change was brought in for PvP reasons ... /shrug</P> <P></P> <HR> What update notes are you referring to?  I cannot find any mention for surveillance, rangers or anything pertaining to this subject in the last weeks worth of notes.  Just curious as to where your information is coming from.  You can't toss a statement out like that with nothing else and expect it to stand on its own.  Where's the beef?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I believe he is talking about the test note that seem to be missing from the LU notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>- In city zones, Stalk and Surveillance can no longer be used to force pets into attacking when they are set to protect/guard.</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>

[LoreLady]

The history of the ability has always had its finer points..When DoF came out, I could surviel and force the guy next to me to take agro - while shooting the crap out of them with a melee ranged Stream of Arrows, and proccing like mad each time..When KoS came out, surviel was nerfed - but surveilance was changed so that you could pull without agro.. While all other abilities took social...I figured it was just a matter of time..

[pseudocide]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>The history of the ability has always had its finer points..<BR><BR>When DoF came out, I could surviel and force the guy next to me to take agro - <FONT color=#ff0000>while shooting the crap out of them with a melee ranged Stream of Arrows, and proccing like mad each time..<BR></FONT><BR>When KoS came out, surviel was nerfed - but surveilance was changed so that you could pull without agro.. While all other abilities took social...<BR><BR>I figured it was just a matter of time..<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>don't you miss when stream was good? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Nulad]

<div></div>Stream wasn't good, it was great, it was however also overpowered, saldy the pendulum swung waaaaay too far in the other direction when the 'balanced' it.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Nuladen on <span class=date_text>12-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:29 AM</span>

[Squigglle]

well rangers also help with agro control sometimes, with trickshot.

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Squigglle wrote:<div></div>well rangers also help with agro control sometimes, with trickshot.<hr></blockquote>I honestly consider that the equivilant to the assassins trasnfer the way I look at it is its being effective 1/3 of the time.. 10 seconds of extra agro every 30 seconds is a nice touch, espessally on raid mobs.. And I am still VERY happy with primal agility, with this trickshot as a nice added bonus <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[dancer]

lol i didnt even know they nerf'd surveillance yet, but havent been out adventuring.  Its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like this that made me quit the first time.  Seriously thats just one less thing we have in our favor now.  now we do dps... and.. average dps out of the dps classes @ that.  <BR>ah well least vanguard is only a few months away.