Wow, so much Ranger Hate...wwhat gives?

[Taeolen]

<DIV>It's funny, really.  Everytime I broadcast that I am looking for a group there's always at least one smart [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who has to make some comment about Rangers sucking, etc.  That, or some one will pop off with they're LFG too and do more damage than a [Removed for Content] like Ranger, or something like that; I'm sure you get the jist of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just simply don't know what to think about it all.  It's really funny but at the same time it's sad because usually I get left out of groups.  Yet, everytime I turn on the parser in a group I'm always on top of it, no matter what classes are in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are people just that ignorant or is there a real problem with Ranger?  I personally think it's just ignorance.</DIV>

[Rienlos]

Yea I hear ya.  Been leveling my ranger (only 42 now) and I've been much lower than people in the group (was told they were only inviting me because I was scout) and I was actually able to top parse and it was OJ mobs to me.Not sure where the misconception is.   In group play I definately seem to rock the parse.  Not sure what else people are looking for in a ranger.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Challenge them.  If we are so bad, then surely the tank will be able to hold aggro.  Then take your aggro reducers off and generate as much hate as you can, then throw it back in their faces.  A tank that allows a ranger to pull aggro must be a really bad tank.  I can pull aggro from a pally with amends on me.  Done it by accident a couple of times.  I know I can do it if I try.</DIV>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <div>Challenge them.  If we are so bad, then surely the tank will be able to hold aggro.  Then take your aggro reducers off and generate as much hate as you can, then throw it back in their faces.  A tank that allows a ranger to pull aggro must be a really bad tank.  I can pull aggro from a pally with amends on me.  Done it by accident a couple of times.  I know I can do it if I try.</div><hr></blockquote>What if this happens consistantly when you have your agro reducers on, using surviel on longblade/vieled fire, and have ignorant bliss on.. And you steal agro on every other fight for say 5 groups straight? - true story, no exageration <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Taeolen]

<DIV>LOL, I'll have to try that sometime then.  Hell, I pull aggro sometimes when I crit on my stealth shot line with my aggro buffs up.  Next time I'm in a group like that I'll turn it off. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note was in a group the other night when my stealth shot crit for almsot 3k and the group was like WOW NICE HIT, and the Guardian (the GUARDIAN) says, "Thanks".  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe there's a lot of crappy Rangers out there too.  I've also been in groups when people are like A Ranger that actually uses his bow?</DIV>

[blackdog1]

Part of the problem is our selves.We moan and complane so much about how under powered we are peeps that would normally have no idea at all about it are starting to use it against us.We are becoming are own worst enemy. I just put up the LFG tag.Eventually I will get a group. <div></div>

[Somethiing]

<P>Theres no class aside from Necros and Warlocks that can outdps me, ever.</P> <P>Theres no ranger hate on this server.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you haven't figured it out, our dps is almost entirely from ranged auto attacks. What makes you a good ranger, is what you do between these auto attacks.</P> <P>If you do too many ca's, you delay your autoattack and mess up your dps.  If you do too little, you're sitting around waiting on an auto attack and mess up your dps.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Somethiing on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[Giland]

More than likely, this goes back to EQL.People would give rangers a hard time because in raids, if they got agro, they died. No agro reducers, etc. Rangers also pulled most raids with monks and died a lot to that.However, it was always good natured ribbing. Rangers could sometimes save a raid with weaponshield since it gave them 15-20 seconds of not being hit from the front. Two rangers was often enough to allow a cleric to camp if they got low health agro, then got WS off in time. I had a personal experience where rangers actually saved th raid and got the kill as the main tank died, the rangers where going down in order, but each one used his/her weaponshield to extend the time by the 15-20 seconds, allowing everyone else to burn the mob down. At the end, we had two people standing. The last ranger, and a wizard.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>I will say this about the whole Ranger-hate thing.  We were our worst enemies.  Everyone believed we sucked because many of us used to go on and on and on about it.  But if you look around, most of those guys who wouldn't shut up about our low DPS betrayed to Assassin so they could once again be at the top of the parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now look at them.  They are still complaining.  Ever since EoF came out and they kind of got shafted on the EoF AA tree, they've been complaining about how they are no longer at the top of their parses.  If there is one thing consistent with EQ2, it's that things will change.  If you don't like your character now, just wait until the next expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember the huge LU13 Guardian nerf?  Look at them now.  Would anyone argue that they are the best raid tanks in the game?</DIV>

[Rexx Everythi]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Giland wrote:More than likely, this goes back to EQL.People would give rangers a hard time because in raids, if they got agro, they died. No agro reducers, etc. Rangers also pulled most raids with monks and died a lot to that.However, it was always good natured ribbing. Rangers could sometimes save a raid with weaponshield since it gave them 15-20 seconds of not being hit from the front. Two rangers was often enough to allow a cleric to camp if they got low health agro, then got WS off in time. I had a personal experience where rangers actually saved th raid and got the kill as the main tank died, the rangers where going down in order, but each one used his/her weaponshield to extend the time by the 15-20 seconds, allowing everyone else to burn the mob down. At the end, we had two people standing. The last ranger, and a wizard.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This is so true. Even years after we were largely fixed in that regard, those "RANGER DOWN" jokes persisted. I still hear them occasionally in EQ2. First impressions are hard to live down it seems. And boy do I miss /disc weaponshield; the deity power Tunare's Lifeshield is a close replacement though. Ahh memories. <span>:smileyhappy:</span>To the OP: you mention you're often running a parser... so show yourself off and spit those numbers out into group chat! Yes it can be annoying so don't do it regularly, or better yet ask the group first if it's okay. Eventually folks will see the dps you're putting out and you will be able to build a network of friends who know and appreciate the hurtin' you put on mobs. Also, ending each group with something like "thanks for the group, if you guys ever need some dps, look me up" can go a long way towards players remembering you and inviting you to groups in the future.And one more thing. Don't sweat it too much about the clowns in the Level channels. I'm sure every server has their share of trolls and know-it-alls who infest those channels. The lower tier ones actually seem to be the worst, as if everyone is trying to prove their EQ2 awesomeness and that they're not really a noob, hee. Level 60_69 and Level_70  are a little better (emphasis on <i>a little</i>).</div>

[Taeolen]

<P>Oh, I played a Ranger in EQ1 too (still my favorite class of any MMORPG ever) so I'm very familiar to Ranger ribbing.</P> <P>Such classics as:</P> <P>A Ranger walks into a bar.  Loading, please wait ...</P> <P>/shout TRAIN INCOMING OUTTA THE WAY WOMEN AND RANGERS FIRST.</P> <P>But, all of those were funny.  In this game it's just stupid the crap people say.  :/</P>

[Gastrocnemi]

Alot of it came to because rangers were waaaayyyy overpowered for a bit there.  It was fun and great and all but everyone complained.  Then the rangers got nerfed.  So many complained all the time that it just spread around and everyone believed it.  Well, rangers were nerfed, they delt with it and they can still do some [Removed for Content] awesome DPS.  If i'm starting a group I always love to have a scout with me, especially if it's a ranger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Haruk]

<div></div>I've seen many bad rangers too, and lots of people think we suck because of that...the other day this ranger I grouped with on an alt refused to do any ranged attacks, why you ask? Because "My melee attacks are quicker"  he says, that's just one example, too. I've seen so many really bad rangers lately...I'm not saying all of them are bad, and ranger is unlike any other class, so perhaps they just aren't used to it.I'm not trying to be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], just wanted to add this though.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Haruk312 on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:00 PM</span>

[Taeolen]

<P>I always stand int he position where I can hit my melee CAs and my ranged CAs.  The magic spot as I like to call it.  </P> <P>But, apparantly it's rare to see a Ranger in a group using their bows.  I've heard the comment, "Wow, a Ranger who uses his bow" one too many times when I join a group.  Also heard people say it's only worth it if they have a bow that does good damage.  >.<</P>

[frostbane]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taeolen wrote:<BR> <P>I always stand int he position where I can hit my melee CAs and my ranged CAs.  The magic spot as I like to call it.  </P> <P>But, apparantly it's rare to see a Ranger in a group using their bows.  I've heard the comment, "Wow, a Ranger who uses his bow" one too many times when I join a group.  Also heard people say it's only worth it if they have a bow that does good damage.  >.<</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I like to "sweet Spot" as i call it a lot.  But honestly with the price of arrows when i group i usually do melee just to conserve arrows.  </DIV> <DIV>As for DPS, our guild occasionally runs a bunch of the t6 raid zones for loot for alts and guild XP.  I usually bring my ranger along for these (main is a warden), and my ranger is only 61.  But i'd say on 50% of the parses i actually show up (usually at the bottom) and i'm wearing junk cobalt armor with MC jewelry.  I don't get the good DPS buffs because those all go to the 70's to help the zone go quicker.  My STR is much lower then the other melee DPS classes and yet i manage to show up on the parse even with a 9 level deficit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Starwindz]

<div></div>My advice is simply this, Let the parse do your talking. Thats usually enough <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Starwindz on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 PM</span>

[Arleonenis]

Yeah there are quite few peoples that think ranger are crappy but as i see you play on AB server same as me you need to know that at top levels 65-70 this isnt true anymore<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Only times when my parser is low is when i tank mob becouse tank cant hold aggro;P Unfortunetly it happens a lot, there are so many crappy tanks that its pathetic. One out of Five will know to turn mobs around ((who sane want that ranger run 3m in front of group just to shoot mob into backs?)) or will listen to me when i told him to do so and One out of Eight will probably hold aggro no matter what. Even some fabled tanks have hard time keeping aggro if i crit few times in row on my most damaging master 1 bow cas but elude + surveil and its good<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Most regular tanks... lets say i tank mobs more than they do so i was forced to increase my survivalibity, shield, 2x Dark Chitin Ring and such, and maxed out parry in strength line plus ofcorse maxed out agility line for dmg... so i actually can survive quite a beating if im in defensive stance... and unfortunetly with those tanks im forced to fight all the way in defensive stance and i still steal aggro... not event mentioning i stoped using poisons in groups... just a waste of resources and aggro magnet even worstBut well there are also those rangers especially in mid levels that think they are some kind of assassins and they MELEE, also they strength is closer to mage str than to what they must have, and those rangers give us bad name, they dmg output is pathetic, they survivability extremally low and if someone let say tank will group with such ranger he really starting to belive rangers are [Removed for Content]...Thats all on that matter i think<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Keep up a good job and maintain a list of tanks which shouldnt be aloved to MT group <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Teksun]

I get ribbed by my guild a LOT, but it's all in good fun. They know I can hit the top of the parse, even over the summoners on occasion (rare occasions). I like that idea of turning the deagro off. I think I'll try it next time I get griefed in a pog<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>I don't ususally group outside my guild.  And, everyone knows I'm conserving arrows for the raids.  So I don't get any grief when I melee in groups, which I almost always do.  Besides, they all know that I'll back off and start flinging arrows if the situation requires me too.</DIV>

[LoreLady]

Alot of it comes from outward propsective, assassins are in the doom and gloom stage where they shouldent - brigands as well... Warlocks and rangers were in a large need of help in KoS, the AA tree's have helped that alot.. Now that those classes have gotten a boost its funny to see the classes that were ontop in KoS complain because everything is scaled towards them..

[blurryfast]

<P>as an assassin, and having had great rangers in guild w/ me, here's my view</P> <P>somehow people are still looking at the 'nerfed' ranger they remember from not too long ago, I personally never saw this because the good rangers didn't lose much dps and were still formidable damage machines</P> <P>sadly it only takes a couple of craptastic rangers to make everyone think the whole class sucks . .  and well that just isn't true</P> <P>rangers have better AA than we assassins (imho)</P> <P>our top ranger was well over 2k for the zone in freethinkers last night</P>

[Elfendragon]

People's misconceptions of a Ranger stem from EQ1, crappy players who don't understand that Ranger stands for "range", and that Rangers were "nerfed".  I'm a level 70 Ranger.  I did not quit after the class was supposedly nerfed.  I am only one of 2 Rangers in my guild.  We are both in the parser after every fight of every raid we do.  No one gives either of us crap about our class (except for my Ranger turned Assassin friend :smileytongue: ).  Even when I first started playing a Ranger before it was cool, I didn't get grief.  It all depends on someone's experience with a class to give them an idea of what to expect.  If you get comments from people, just ignore them.  They obviously don't know the real power of what we can do.

[Saihung23]

<P>Some people get the misconception that ribbing rangers should evolve into being group prejudiced against them.  However there is one bright side to that.</P> <P> </P> <P>The people who are too stupid to get past the generalizations about rangers are also the people who are [Removed for Content] in groups anyway.  They are doing you a favor by not being in a group with you.  These are the people who roll for all loot regardless of who it is needed by...they think they are so uber that when they make a mistake its your fault...and when, god forbid, you do make a mistake...these are the jerks who have to try to humiliate you for it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Be thankfull that those wipes arent interested in grouping with you.  Youre better served in other groups.</P>

[Shadowbain]

<P>Well rangers are [Removed for Content] plain and simple.</P> <P>The only time a ranger will do well is at lvl 70 with 100 AA's and be in a raid guild that will gear them. the solo and duo game for rangers is crap same with the group content as there are many classes that do the same damage but have utility and buffs to offer.</P> <P>SoE killed the ranger class when they brang PvP to EQ2, sadly what made the ranger class was procs based on the delay of there bow and that was taken out so rangers don't get unfair advantage in PvP.</P> <P>SoE realy needs to give rangers some utility and or group buffs to make up for the change they did when PvP came out that totaly gimped rangers.</P>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadowbain wrote:<BR> <P>SoE killed the ranger class when they brang PvP to EQ2, sadly what made the ranger class was procs based on the delay of there bow and that was taken out so rangers don't get unfair advantage in PvP.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think it had more to do with the 4K+ DPS, than the PvP advantage.<BR>

[Shadowbain]

lol  nah there are classes im our guild that can hit 4k DPS that has nothing to do with it.

[Zholain]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Shadowbain wrote:</font> <p><font size="2">Well rangers are [Removed for Content] plain and simple.</font></p><p><font size="2"><font color="#ffff00">Absolutely absurd.</font></font></p> <p><font size="2">The only time a ranger will do well is at lvl 70 with 100 AA's and be in a raid guild that will gear them. the solo and duo game for rangers is crap same with the group content as there are many classes that do the same damage but have utility and buffs to offer.</font></p><p><font size="2"><font color="#ffff00">I solo, I group, and I raid.  I certainly don't have 100 AA's yet, but I am level 70.  However, in each of the scenarios you've mentioned I do just fine, if not exceptional.</font></font></p> <p><font size="2">SoE killed the ranger class when they brang PvP to EQ2, sadly what made the ranger class was procs based on the delay of there bow and that was taken out so rangers don't get unfair advantage in PvP.</font></p><p><font size="2"><font color="#ffff00">Only slightly correct.  We were over-nerfed, then slightly corrected which still did bring us to where we need to be.  The proc mechanic you mention was a flaw in the system.  If you didn't see that when it was happening then I don't know what to say.  No other class in the game was ever so dependent on procs, and the ranger class shouldn't be either.</font></font></p> <p><font size="2">SoE realy needs to give rangers some utility and or group buffs to make up for the change they did when PvP came out that totaly gimped rangers.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00" size="2">I don't think the game needs 4 rogue classes.  The idea that SOE give rangers more utility is part of the problem they have in properly balancing us.  They can not give us more utility while maintaining the same dps.  Not only would other classes cry for a nerf to rangers, but it would be difficult to do without infringing on another classes territory.  The game already has 2 good utility/good dps classes.  Predators are dps classes.  Both are capable of very good dps, but one is simply much more difficult to reach maximum potential.</font></p><hr></blockquote></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

[Shadowbain]

<DIV>are you saying that rangers can solo as well as a wizzy or necro?  hmmm DPS on raid necro with lifeburn can hit easly 4k if they know there class.  brigands swashy all have insane debuffs attached to there CA's and easly do the DPS of a ranger. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and if there was a bug with bow delay then they would drop the delay of bow cause poison procs are still based on the weapon delay of bows wich has not changed. however they have done a lot to keep every piece of proc gear in the game to not proc on bows and SOE knows that bows proc more lol it was suposed to or they would change the delay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>rangers can "make due" yes that i agree with but there is "NOTHING"  a ranger dose better then any other class. we are sub par to all and ok at DPS.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>name one thing in this game a ranger is THE class to do it with other then pulling without line of sight.</DIV>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadowbain wrote:<BR> <DIV>name one thing in this game a ranger is THE class to do it with other then pulling without line of sight.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Since you qualified your statement by disqualifying the "one thing" we can do.  I guess the answer would be nothing.:smileytongue:

[Zholain]

<div></div><div></div><font size="2">Please...read what I wrote, and not necessarily what you want to hear and it will make more sense.  I didn't say we are perfect, nor did I say that we don't still need some work from the development team.However, you said we are '[Removed for Content]'.  We are not.  You argue that wizards/necros are the kings of solo play now.  That was true even in DoF when rangers were most powerful.  A well played ranger can solo nearly just as good as these two classes...especially now in EoF where mobs are resisting 50% or more of magical attacks.</font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Shadowbain wrote:</font><div><font size="2">and if there was a bug with bow delay then they would drop the delay of bow cause poison procs are still based on the weapon delay of bows wich has not changed. however they have done a lot to keep every piece of proc gear in the game to not proc on bows and SOE knows that bows proc more lol it was suposed to or they would change the delay.</font></div><font size="2"></font><hr></blockquote><font size="2">You are oversimplifying a problem which you don't seem to fully understand.  The problem was not only with bows.  It was with every weapon in the game.  In DoF, EVERYONE who understood the mechanic and wanted to take advantage of it tried to get their hands on the slowest weapon they could find.  From dual-wield to two-handers to bows.  To assume this mechanic was changed and only effected rangers would be a very wrong assumption.  However, I do agree with you when you say that the mechanic is still broken, just in the opposite way as it was before.  But you need to look at the broader picture to understand why this creates difficulty for SOE in balancing..  And no, I'm not a fan of SOE...they created this mess themselves and they simply don't know how to fix it.</font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Shadowbain wrote:</font><div><font size="2">name one thing in this game a ranger is THE class to do it with other then pulling without line of sight.</font></div><font size="2"></font><hr></blockquote><font size="2">DPS.  Whether in pickup group or guild raid, I still top the parse 50% of the time unless I'm afk...rarely coming in below 3rd.  And I have neither the Sarnak War Bow, nor one of the t8 arrow summoning bows.  I'm no uber ranger by any means. I do have a nice master catalog, but then so do the others who compete with me on the parser.  To ask for more than a 50% ratio of being at the top of the dps parse would simply be asking for another KoS type of nerf.Yes there are other classes who do more dps than they should considering the utility they bring.  I'm not debating that.  But I will debate with you all day as long as you say that the ranger class is '[Removed for Content]'.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 PM</span>

[Shadowbain]

<P>Necro DPS: 1800 - 3000</P> <P>Assassin DPS: 1500 - 2500</P> <P>Swashy DPS: 1500 - 2500</P> <P>Brigand DPS: 1500 - 2300</P> <P>Warlock PDS: 1500 - 2800</P> <P>Wizard PDS: 1500 - 2800</P> <P>Ranger DPS: 1500 - 2500</P> <P>this is how they parse on our raids if they are in the right group makep.  Rangers are "[Removed for Content]" in my opinion because all the other classes listed that are doing around the same for DPS also bring a lot more to the raid then just there DPS.  i dont know what you all parse in your guild but from what i know of the classes Rangers are short changed as to what they bring to a raid. hence i say Gimped. People don't make rangers to farm with for a reason <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  there is little to do in this game at lvl 70 other then raid and on raids rangers have a lot less to offer then any other high DPS class.</P> <P>when i say GIMPED i meen that rangers are sub par to other DPS classes as all other DPS classes have more then there DPS to offer.</P><p>Message Edited by Shadowbain on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadowbain wrote:<BR> <P>Necro DPS: 1800 - 3000</P> <P>Assassin DPS: 1500 - 2500</P> <P>Swashy DPS: 1500 - 2500</P> <P>Brigand DPS: 1500 - 2300</P> <P>Warlock PDS: 1500 - 2800</P> <P>Wizard PDS: 1500 - 2800</P> <P>Ranger DPS: 1500 - 2500</P> <P>this is how they parse on our raids if they are in the right group makep.  Rangers are "[Removed for Content]" in my opinion because all the other classes listed that are doing around the same for DPS also bring a lot more to the raid then just there DPS.  i dont know what you all parse in your guild but from what i know of the classes Rangers are short changed as to what they bring to a raid. hence i say Gimped. People don't make rangers to farm with for a reason <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  there is little to do in this game at lvl 70 other then raid and on raids rangers have a lot less to offer then any other high DPS class.</P> <P>when i say GIMPED i meen that rangers are sub par to other DPS classes as all other DPS classes have more then there DPS to offer.</P> <P>Message Edited by Shadowbain on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yay! more posts with "factual DPS numbers"!</P> <P>Thats what we all need!</P> <P>And the "why aren't farmers rangers" argument.</P> <P>I dont care what your dps numbers are personally.  I still enjoy playing my ranger.  </P> <P>I dont care what the farmers are using to run around farming with.  I still enjoy my ranger.</P> <P>I dont care if the jones' class next door can do 1 more dps than me or 500 dps more than me.  I still enjoy playing my ranger.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>One of the reasons I get in groups, get in raids, and am welcome in circles that include all other classes...is that I dont parse and whine about my character afterwards. ***Edited*** I forgot its also my sparkling personality.  :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>I enjoy playing this game for reasons beyond what can my class do compared to other classes.</P> <P>If groups dont want to have a ranger with them when they lack DPS then that is their problem....I do sick DPS when I am on my game....regardless of whether Joe Dredd the Necro is outparsing me doesnt mean a thing.</P> <P>So...if you pass me up because you think I wont be good in your group...great...awesome...means that I dont have to be bored with the complaints about how [Removed for Content] rangers are compared to your uber flavor of the month dime a dozen necro or wizard.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Saihung23 on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:07 PM</span>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Couldn't have said it better Sai.</font><div></div>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>ditto.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shadowbain, dont agree with anything  you wrote.   Its posts like yours that perpetuate the myth rangers are [Removed for Content].   Even your DPS figures are wrong.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers were T1 DPS in KoS (after the early fix) and are even stronger now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even with the necro's lifeburn or wizzies manaburn, they are more limited then predators.   Encounters are very situational now, and DPS is shared amongst a number of classes.   However, rangers, assassins and wizards (specced to non manaburners) should always finish top3 on zonewides and the order will vary from zone to zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE have finally got the balance right between the DPS classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shadowbain]

<DIV>Well i look at it from the standpoint of raids, and im amazed that some don't understand that Rangers are sub par on raids to other DPS classes that parse the some but ALSO add good debuffs or group buffs to help others do better DPS or can rezz in combat or a hole slew of things they can add to the raid that a ranger can not.  If you are trying to maximize a raid to be the best it can then Rangers dont have a place. you could sub in a necro for a ranger anyday and have better DPS plus combat rezz and have buffs.  that is my point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not saying that rangers cant DPS at all nor am i saying they cant solo but i AM saying that there DPS is equal on raids to all other DPS classes and they get nothing ells to add to the raid when all other classes do. so they are a sub par DPS class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you wish to prove me wrong then do so with facts, give me some DPS numbers on raids as to where your rangers are parsing compared to all other DPS classes then show me what the ranger offers over the other DPS classes on the raid. im sorry but the end game content in EQ2 is all about raiding if you want to see what the game has to offer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Compair DPS vers utility and buffs of all DPS classes and rangers will match on DPS but have no utility, buffs or good debuffs to offer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i understand that people get attached to there toons and dont want to be seen as a lesser DPS class but the fact is Rangers do less DPS then a necro and equal to the other Scout type DPS and wizard warloc but have none of the benifits the other DPS classes add to a raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some of us play this game to be the best we can be and to bring as much as we can to the raid aspect of the game and when you watch the parse and bring as much DPS as the others but dont have all the utility or buffs or debuffs others bring you start asking yourself why you play a ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i am not content with the group content or solo as it has no chalange to it. i play this game to beat the raid content and little ells remotely intrests me so i only look at the raid end of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have never once stated rangers are not good DPS as i do 1700 - 2500 DPS on raids when in the right group but so do all the other DPS classes in our guild but i dont have the utility or combat rezz or big bebuffs the other DPS classas have. so yes i feel rangers are less of a class on raids to the other DPS classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When all things are Equal with DPS but other classes have more then that to offer i dont see how you can say Rangers are Equal to other classes in any way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i will agree to disagree that Rangers are a balanced class on raids sorry i dont see it.</DIV>

[Katsugen]

<P>I agree dps wise we are ok. We still lack the spike damage that some other classes get tho. Our dietys are a joke, and I'm getting sick of have max dkp, how about some gear rangers would actually want to roll on. Our utility is...well lets face it we don't have any.</P> <P>I still argue soe should turn our craptastic bird into a "dispatch" of deagro. But yeh our class is crazy fun, but from a raid point I don't think we really cut the mustard. Sure we can put up good numbers but a well played, well gear brig can do the same and bring debuffs that improve the entire raids dps.</P> <P>If soe doesn't want us atop of that dps list then I would argue a little utility isn't uncalled for. I think it's a reasonable statement to say we are subpar to some other classes in a raid. Granted there are worse examples out there, *cough*crusaders*cough*. I think soe's balance also needs to include value in raid. </P> <P>- Katsugen</P>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what you ask for will never happen as long as there are wizards in the game.  They will ALWAYS proclaim that they should be top dps...and in a sense I agree with that.  But their reasoning for this is that rangers have higher survivability, and that we have just as much utility as they do.  A very wrong claim, I know.  But that's exactly what happened in DoF and I don't think there's anyone here who can deny SOE's love of the wizard class, and SOE listens to them very intently.You have to be realistic in your expectations, and understand that certain things just aren't going to happen.  They are not going to create a class that always sits on top of the parser in every situation.  And I wouldn't expect rangers to be given any sort of significant dps increase unless we give up something else, i.e. chain armor, agro control, more weapon limitations, etc.A more realistic expectation would be that SOE will make more gear available that will allow us to reach our potential with the same effort as some of the other classes....but I wouldn't even expect that in the immediate future.  And I think that's something we can all agree on.</font><div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Well, after reading other threads, it's become painfully obvious to me that many Rangers do not use tier appropriate arrows and some don't use poisons.  And, a very large percentage of Rangers who do use poisons only use the damage poison.  Many don't even realize that they can stack all three poison types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parsing on top is relative to the players in your group.  If you only group with people who are willing to accept a Ranger who isn't going to put forth the effort to do his absolute best, you are probably always going to parse on top.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why so much Ranger hate?  Because there are some truely terrible Rangers out there.  The only thing you can do to make getting groups easier, is to impress the people you group with.  Eventually, the word will get out.  EQ2 servers has some of the lowest populations in the industry.  Your reputation is what you make of it.  Work to get on people's "I like to group with" lists and try to stay off the "players to avoid" lists.</DIV>

[Balerius]

<P>You can quibble with Shadowbain's raid dps numbers all you want.</P> <P>And I certainly agree that raid dps is somewhat situational...you can't simply flat out dps every raid mob in the same manner or with the same results.</P> <P>Having said that, however, broadly speaking Shadowbain is correct about the relative weakness of rangers in high-end raids.  Broadly speaking, a number of classes are approximately equal to or even exceed ranger raid dps yet all of them have substantial amounts of raid utility.  Rangers, as we know, have utterly zero raid utility.</P> <P>Let me give an example...</P> <P>If a brigand is within 100-200 dps of a ranger, yet that same brigand allows every other dps class increase its dps by 100-200, then why would a raid have a ranger instead of a brigand?  Now ask yourself the same question about any number of other classes.</P> <P>I have maintained all along that for rangers to be truly "balanced" then ranger raid dps has to be <STRONG><EM><U>substantially</U></EM></STRONG> superior in almost all situations to every other class.  And I don't mean by a measly 200 dps or so.  "Balanced" in this context means that there is a compelling reason for a raid/guild to have a ranger in a raid/guild other than their wonderful personality.  There are compelling reasons to have rogues, bards, casters and healers of all varieties, etc in raids/guilds.  But right now, there is no such compelling reason to have a ranger on a raid or in a guild.  Until that is fixed, rangers won't be "balanced".  And to fix it, we must be made the clear top dps class in the game.</P>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadowbain wrote:<BR> <P>Well rangers are [Removed for Content] plain and simple.</P> <P>The only time a ranger will do well is at lvl 70 with 100 AA's and be in a raid guild that will gear them. the solo and duo game for rangers is crap same with the group content as there are many classes that do the same damage but have utility and buffs to offer.</P> <P>SoE killed the ranger class when they brang PvP to EQ2, sadly what made the ranger class was procs based on the delay of there bow and that was taken out so rangers don't get unfair advantage in PvP.</P> <P>SoE realy needs to give rangers some utility and or group buffs to make up for the change they did when PvP came out that totaly gimped rangers.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I did fine at 50 AA, with t7 ammo.</P> <P>Rangers do need utility.</P> <P>Who cares if someone can hit 4k in your guild, every necromancer world wide can do it with Undead tide and Manaburn up.</P><p>Message Edited by xMiLoSiSx on <span class=date_text>12-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[Wil81115]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadowbain wrote:<BR> <P>Well rangers are [Removed for Content] plain and simple.</P> <P>The only time a ranger will do well is at lvl 70 with 100 AA's and be in a raid guild that will gear them. the solo and duo game for rangers is crap same with the group content as there are many classes that do the same damage but have utility and buffs to offer.</P> <P>SoE killed the ranger class when they brang PvP to EQ2, sadly what made the ranger class was procs based on the delay of there bow and that was taken out so rangers don't get unfair advantage in PvP.</P> <P>SoE realy needs to give rangers some utility and or group buffs to make up for the change they did when PvP came out that totaly gimped rangers.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You aren't a Ranger, are you?  I can solo just fine, but I swap gear and poisons for solo'n. Groups have never been a problem for me. So I hope you are speaking for yourself.</P> <P>I do agree that PVP RUINED the PVE Ranger, wholeheartly in fact. </P> <P>I don't want utility, I don't want buffs. I want my DPS back. Simple and as plain as that.. After I have 100aa's this position may change.  After 78aa's I am liking what I'm seeing so far though.</P> <P> <BR></P>

[BadDemocracy]

Maybe it's because most rangers try to be DPS machines and constantly TRY to pull aggro off the tank just to flex their woodland muscle. It gets really annoying, and it isn't skillfull (Just spam CA's). The real challenge to playing good is scaling your DPS so you don't pull agro and get oneshotted.<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BadDemocracy wrote:<BR>Maybe it's because most rangers try to be DPS machines and constantly TRY to pull aggro off the tank just to flex their woodland muscle. It gets really annoying, and it isn't skillfull (Just spam CA's). The real challenge to playing good is scaling your DPS so you don't pull agro and get oneshotted.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>HAHA OMG Are you serious? Please tell me you dont play a tank. Please tell me that you can keep agro from a ranger! [Removed for Content] Cause if you seriously mean what you wrote, all I can say is... YOU SUCK!. Theres no way that a tank should be losing agro to a ranger. We have so many ways to keep that from happening its not even funny.</P> <P> </P> <P>As for my DPS, I dont have any complaints. I personally enjoy the DPS I do. I also dont mind not having any utility to speak of. Ask any wizzy, warlock, or assassin how much utlility they have? They'll likely say they have none, and at best, very little. Its just the nature of the beast. </P>

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BadDemocracy wrote:<BR>Maybe it's because most rangers try to be DPS machines and constantly TRY to pull aggro off the tank just to flex their woodland muscle. It gets really annoying, and it isn't skillfull (Just spam CA's). The real challenge to playing good is scaling your DPS so you don't pull agro and get oneshotted.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I smell troll - not even a very subtle one.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[Gerdos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BadDemocracy wrote:<BR>Maybe it's because most rangers try to be DPS machines and constantly TRY to pull aggro off the tank just to flex their woodland muscle. It gets really annoying, and it isn't skillfull (Just spam CA's). The real challenge to playing good is scaling your DPS so you don't pull agro and get oneshotted.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>BD is right.   There are going to be some rangers wanting to flex their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in some situations at this early stage of EoF.. especially after many rangers feeling inadequate during KoS.  BD is also right, that the challenge for rangers and all other dps classes is to optimise your dps and controlling agro.</P> <P>As for pulling agro .. its actually much easier now then what it was.</P> <P>More importantly, there are certain new named (raid) encounters that favour range dps which places rangers in a interesting position.  High DPS offset by the high chance to pull agro.  I've found myself having to hold back more in EoF raids then KoS already .. so i'm still learning/adjusting to a new rythem on certain named encounters.   All Fun though!  :smileywink:</P> <P> </P>

[LoreLady]

On a lighter note, I find it funny on the classes claiming they should be "top dps"Both the necro AND conj in my guild claim they should be top dps because they have are two people..A wizard thinks they should be top dog because they are casters A ranger thinks he should be the top because of the most cash paidAn assassin thinks he should be top because he thinks he does the most work..(tell me another one lol <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)And brigands/swashies just want it all <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Unfortunatly, theres no one in the highest end of EoF yet.. The raids that are out there are still building themselves out, and only afew people have 100 aa's by now.. No one has the beset EoF gear, so getting a "relitive parse" isent something we can do right now.. I really think it comes down to this with you guys, your own mind can be your best friend or your worst foe.

[Shadowbain]

<DIV>well i have to say is that none of you understand my point lol,  i never once said Rangers are not good DPS or that they CANT solo. I did say that there are other classes that solo better and on a RAID Rangers have nothing to offer but there DPS wich can easly be match by other classes who offer more then just DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you take the ranger out of the raid and add a necro then you have the same if not better DPS plus combat rezz or a Brigand then you have good debuffs that make the enire raid do better or a shashy same thing better raid DPS plus the swashy can match the DPS of the ranger. you can put just about any DPS class in the game in place of a ranger and have a better raid for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now i know many of you are trying to spin this into me saying Rangers are bad DPS or that they Cant solo but all im saying is Rangers dont have a place in TOP END RAIDS and SOE needs to fix that and give something to a ranger that gives them a solid spot on raids.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there is no top raid guilds in this game that tries to make room for a ranger on raids over any other class.  why you ask?  cause they have less to offer for the success of the raid.</DIV> <P>Have you ever seen a Top End raid guild activly trying to recruit a Ranger?  hmmmm...  think there is a reason why they dont?  lol  need i say more?</P><p>Message Edited by Shadowbain on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:36 AM</span>

[Ranja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Challenge them.  If we are so bad, then surely the tank will be able to hold aggro.  Then take your aggro reducers off and generate as much hate as you can, then throw it back in their faces.  A tank that allows a ranger to pull aggro must be a really bad tank.  I can pull aggro from a pally with amends on me.  Done it by accident a couple of times.  I know I can do it if I try.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What if this happens consistantly when you have your agro reducers on, using surviel on longblade/vieled fire, and have ignorant bliss on.. And you steal agro on every other fight for say 5 groups straight? - true story, no exageration <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then you need a new tank<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I parse 1200-1500 and never steal aggro. Do you have hate increase in your MT group? I also use GM CAustic and crit for over 2000 with it and still do not steal aggro. Sounds like your MT group needs some help<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Shadowbain]

<P>About agro management on a Ranger?  i can do 2500 DPS and not rip from the tank. If a ranger is pulling agro then they dont know there class well <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  now sometimes i do rip on the tank but not ofteh at all.</P> <P>the class that rips more then any other in our guild is a Warloc. but put the casters with a Troub and most of the ripping on raids goes away <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Shadowbain wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>well i have to say is that none of you understand my point lol,  i never once said Rangers are not good DPS or that they CANT solo. I did say that there are other classes that solo better and on a RAID Rangers have nothing to offer but there DPS wich can easly be match by other classes who offer more then just DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div>if you take the ranger out of the raid and add a necro then you have the same if not better DPS plus combat rezz or a Brigand then you have good debuffs that make the enire raid do better or a shashy same thing better raid DPS plus the swashy can match the DPS of the ranger. you can put just about any DPS class in the game in place of a ranger and have a better raid for it.</div> <div> </div> <div>now i know many of you are trying to spin this into me saying Rangers are bad DPS or that they Cant solo but all im saying is Rangers dont have a place in TOP END RAIDS and SOE needs to fix that and give something to a ranger that gives them a solid spot on raids.  </div> <div> </div> <div>there is no top raid guilds in this game that tries to make room for a ranger on raids over any other class.  why you ask?  cause they have less to offer for the success of the raid.</div> <p><b>Have you ever seen a Top End raid guild activly trying to recruit a Ranger?  hmmmm...  think there is a reason why they dont?  lol  need i say more?</b></p><p>Message Edited by Shadowbain on <span class="date_text">12-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The arguement about rangers vs brigands/necro's is a valid one, but its an debate that neither of us should get into untill we see more rangers/other classes getting better gear and 100 aa's..Replying to the part thats bolded here.. The top guild on my server has 4 rangers in it - out of 35ish people.. They arent recruiting rangers because they have alot of them as it is..</div>

[TheStormrider]

<P>Rangers do add _some_ utility,  if they choose too.  Albeit not a large amount.  First off our 24% slow is a HUGE debuff on a raid,  and it stacks with almost every other slow out there,  including totems.  Our str/int/wis/agi debuffs also do a lot towards helping the raid.  Maybe not on their own,  but stacked again, with other classes,  its a big difference.</P> <P>For example in DT,  the split drakes with a partial raid group due to ld's and disco's was almost un-doable without slows/debuffs,  but was very doable with the slows and debuffs (2 rangers one on each of the globules).</P> <P>Now,  im sick of having to pay for our dps,  and id love to not have to have the absolute best gear to compete,  but to say that were [Removed for Content],  and provide no buffs/debuffs is a bit silly.  Lack of proper dieties?  yes.  Some bugged skills?  Yes.  Annoying stealth nerfs (like surveil and the stealth nerf to traps) Yes.  Sheer expense of playing a ranger is by far the worse.  </P> <P>I dont know how many of you read other forums,  but pretty much,  every class has a major gripe,  and that will never change.  The best thing we can do is provide feedback. And when the time comes,  find a new game,  and play the ranger there.  Until it is nerfed.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gerdos]

<DIV><U>Re: high end raid guilds not needing rangers.</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SecondDawn  have always had 2 active raid rangers.</DIV> <DIV>NPU didnt have 1 during KoS, but recruited a ranger a few weeks ago.</DIV> <DIV>Dissolution dont have one, and argued for a long time against using them.   They also have strict rules on roster quota which they are capped on now.   They would do well to recruit 1 next.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know of any other core raiding guild who dont use rangers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Re: DPS</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen warlocks parse over 4k on some encounters, wizards and necro's reguarly parse b/w 3.5-4k dps.  I've also seen rangers parse between 3-3.8k against similiar mobs.   Although these figures are limited to certain trash mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, i see rangers parse in the top 5 (usually top 3) in all encounters .. with assassins (although, some of the new named encounters will have assassins behind range dps classes) .. while manaburn/lifeburn players and warlocks, summoners, rogues  DONT have advantage of being up there EVERY fight.   The single greatest benefit rangers provide over any other dps class .. is that in almost every situation (other then strict melee only fights .. limited to Tarinax, Vyemm) rangers will always provide T1 DPS.   Long fights, short fights, single target, group encounters,  ... while having the best self agro control in game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As i've already said, dps is more situational now and no 1 class dominates dps (about time) ... and great rangers certainly have a place in any raiding guild ... especially in EoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally i get tired by this whole debate ... reguarly voiced by those not capable of doing the kind of dps that some rangers can do ... or players using incorrect facts to push an argument.   </DIV> <DIV>I assure you, the problem does not lie in the class ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Prandtl on <span class=date_text>12-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:45 PM</span>

[Juniger]

<DIV>Sorry guys that was me saying those jokes. I'll try and come up with some new ones. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Face it guys people don't know any better, just tell them what I do. I tell grps if I cast pathfinding 3 times it gives power regen, then I tell them that I also have great debuffs, and that I proc the tank. When they look for the icon I tell them it's an SoE bug and not to let that out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Q. Whats the shortest Ranger joke ever?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A. LFG</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hahahahaha, get use to all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>70 Ranger</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[PonderStibbons]

As an ex-SWG ranger, I can see I've come to the right place <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ranger. It's not a <strike>profession</strike> class, it's a lifestyle!<div></div>

[Shadowbain]

<DIV> <P>hmmmm  Rangers have a slow?  and stat debuffs?    i keep looking for mine but i just done see them <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  not SNARE  but a SLOW?  to decrease attack speed?  cause snare dose not work on epics.</P></DIV>

[TheStormrider]

<P>We have poisons that does either 24% or 26% attack speed debuff.  We also have a poison that decreasese melee skills and a stat,  or caster skills and a stat etc etc.</P> <P>These are in addition to our poisons that proc damage.  </P> <P>Couple this with a totem and you have a very nicely slowed mob.  We can not however use our attack speed poison at the same time as our deaggro.</P>

[jjlo69]

i know groups dont ask me to come along cause i hit the mobs to hard and tank more then the tank usally. plus ppl hate when my marr cloak proc goes off and im the size of a thundering steeps gaint in a small hall way hehe<p>Message Edited by jjlo69 on <span class=date_text>12-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:13 PM</span>

[Shadowbain]

<P>ok so the one useful thing you say about the ranger is usen poisons to slow epics Hmmm...   i though ALL scout DPS classes got those poisons so again replace the ranger with a swashy or brigand on a raid and you still get better utility plas debuffs <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   and when im on raids i can only use Ignorant Bliss or i rip and die non-stop <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  all i have to bring is my DPS and that i can bring but so do the other scouts who alsu have other things to offer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>my point is rangers have nothing over any other DPS class at all and all other DPS classes have things to offer a ranger cant.  </P> <P>this thread is about why so many people have stuff against rangers <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  im just trying to show you all why this is and none of you understand my point wich is shared by all those out there who have something against Rangers.</P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheStormrider wrote:<div></div> <p>We have poisons that does either 24% or 26% attack speed debuff.  We also have a poison that decreasese melee skills and a stat,  or caster skills and a stat etc etc.</p> <p>These are in addition to our poisons that proc damage.  </p> <p>Couple this with a totem and you have a very nicely slowed mob.  We can not however use our attack speed poison at the same time as our deaggro.</p><hr></blockquote>Are you sure about that? The 'slow' poison is movement, not attack speed.</div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Turgers slows the attack speed.  Fettering slows the movement speed.  Personally, I never solo without one or the other.  Turgers is real good if you are in a place where you get lots of adds.  Fettering is just plain fun to use.  It stacks with our snares and I can unload some awesome damage before the mob gets to me.</DIV>