Surveillance

[Teksun]

So here I am grouped up over the weekend, and am asked to do a  Surveillance pull. Everything went bad and we almost wiped. Then I notice: I don't have surveillance. I have Improved Surveil. That can't be right? After all this time? So I look in my book. It's not there. Needless to say I feel STUPID.So I go to the broker, buy the AD1 version and scribe it, only it's STILL not in my book. I of course /bugged it but haven't heard anything yet. Has anyone else ever had this happen or have any insight as [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is going on?<font size="1"><span></span></font><div></div>

[Pharly]

<DIV>The only problem i can think of, is you bought the app4 of the spell, and scribed it, but their are other CA infront of it in the book. Atleast, thats what i would think, being a 70 ability and all it should be at the front right? (I had m1 leg shot for the longest time at 70 because i didn't want to shell out for m1 snaring shot, and when i finally scribed it, i looked back near the 50s :smileymad: )</DIV><p>Message Edited by Pharly on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:23 AM</span>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Dude, that sucks!  Improved suveil doesn't quite work like surveillance.  Yes, you have to get that fixed fast.</DIV>

[Teksun]

I've sorted by level, I've sorted by type and I've used the default. It's not in my book. I've /bugged it but haven't seen a responce yet.<div></div>

[TeflonS7]

Hate to break it to ya, but having Improved Surveil over Surveillance had nothing to do with your wipe.  They are the EXACT same spell (same spell line) except the higher lvl one reduces hate by more.  I've been 70 for months now and only got the lvl 70 one fairly recently; had no bearing on my pulls.  I'm guessing someone cast something too soon and the mob socialed some buddies over.Now if the spell itself isn't showing up in your book, then yes that needs to be /bugged.<div></div>

[Taeolen]

<P>What exactly is a Surveil pull?  Besides the obvious, "You pull with Survil, duh!" comments.  </P> <P>I mean what does it do?</P>

[Teksun]

With the level 70 Surveilance, you don't (I have HEARD) get social agro. It also makes it easy for the MT to get agro away from you.<div></div>

[Pharly]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taeolen wrote:<BR> <P>What exactly is a Surveil pull?  Besides the obvious, "You pull with Survil, duh!" comments.  </P> <P>I mean what does it do?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Surviellance pulls no social aggro, only the targeted encounter. It has a 35 meter range, just the same as your bow. And since its a deaggro, you will only have 1 point of hate if its used to pull, making it super easy for the tank to get aggro.

[Taeolen]

Cool, have been wondering what it was.  Have a few more levels....well, more than a few to go till then.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR>With the level 70 Surveilance, you don't (I have HEARD) get social agro.<BR><BR>It also makes it easy for the MT to get agro away from you.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>True.  This is how Improved Surveil is also supposed to work.  I don't know if it still is, but it was broken.  It <STRONG>did</STRONG> generate social aggro, just not as much as an arrow shot.  It sounds like it's still broken though.

[Sirlutt]

<b>ONLY</b> the lvl 70 Surveilance pulls with NO social agro.Anything else <b>will</b> get varying levels of social agro.<div></div>

[Wil81115]

<P>As of today its been, fixed, nerf'd, what the Fark ever..</P> <P>No mention in the notes, not a gawd dam single word.</P> <P>back to go old body pulling FOR THE FARKING LOSS..</P>

[Barramundi]

If this change was intended, I'd like to know the reasoning behind it. Maybe it was just because rangers hadn't been nerfed for a couple of weeks(just kidding)Previously, this ability provided a useful addition to a group's pulling options rather that the tank edging forward for a proximity pull.I cannot see how adding social agro to this ability improves the game at all. If devs are looking at predator abilities it would be nice if something was done about Hawk Dive.<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barramundi wrote:<BR>If this change was intended, I'd like to know the reasoning behind it. Maybe it was just because rangers hadn't been nerfed for a couple of weeks(just kidding)<BR><BR>Previously, this ability provided a useful addition to a group's pulling options rather that the tank edging forward for a proximity pull.<BR><BR>I cannot see how adding social agro to this ability improves the game at all. If devs are looking at predator abilities it would be nice if something was done about Hawk Dive.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If it was intended, and Im sure it was, it was to bring in in line with the rest of the survail line. All the previous survail arts would draw social, so if this was the exception, then it wasnt working as intended. I know you dont want to hear it, but thats the reason behind it. Devs have stated that fact before. And yes, you can say its been working like that for as long as we have had it, but that doesnt mean thats how it was supposed to function.

[Nulad]

Doesn't stop them from keeping us informed though does it, and I have to say anybody who thought this wasn't going to get brought into line with the rest of the series was deluding themselves.<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

Oh I completely agree that it should have been mentioned in the update notes...  I hate when they ninja stuff.

[Barramundi]

Thanks for answering my question Nesse, but what I should have asked is why does the surveil line have to cause social agro? Is it unbalancing the game in some respect  or does it create difficulties on the pvp server? In the early days of eq2 stalk/surveil abilities could pull mobs back to the group without attacking the ranger at all. Seems to me it was a great predator defining ability, now it is just a stealth with deagro.<div></div>

[Gerdos]

<P>Anyone who's had a chance to raid some of the new zones (particularly EH or MMCIS) .. may have some understanding why they might have made the change now. </P> <P>It made raiding a little  easier and quicker (knowing which to pull and which to leave) ... perhaps more then what the developers/producers wanted.</P> <P> </P> <P>Or it might just have been something on the backburner of their list of Things to Do which they finally got around to doing  .. "Fix Surveillance" to function the same as its earlier versions.</P> <P>Another possible reason was to give rangers more emphasis to consider taking "Hooked Arrow" .. and making rangers more unique/specialised for pulling .. as assassins no longer share the duties of pulling for raids/groups.</P> <P> </P>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>A "fix" that nerfs an ability is still a nerf.   All nerfs should be addressed in the notes.  No exceptions.  Anything less makes people speculate as to why it was done and increases animosity.</DIV>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <div>A "fix" that nerfs an ability is still a nerf.   All nerfs should be addressed in the notes.  No exceptions.  Anything less makes people speculate as to why it was done and increases animosity.</div><hr></blockquote>Gareorn is right, but at this point...it's pointless to speculate. Better to enjoy the holidays for now instead of worrying about things like this. Hopefully this gets addressed at some point. <span>:smileyhappy:</span></div>

[Truesaer]

As I noted in a reply in the similar thread in this forum, there is some minor hope for ranger pulling.  I have respeced to the AA Hook Arrow and it does work to single out mobs.   However, there is good news and bad news about it.Bad news is the range is 25 m, which makes the raid usefullness questionable in some cases I think, but it may work in many.  Other bad news is its not a de-aggro pull, which means you better have someone grabbing your aggro asap or you gonna die if you pull named epics this way.  In fact, the ability states your next melee attack will be a crit attack, which wont help your aggro either, lol.Also has a 2 min reuse timer, which may not hurt too much on raid mobs, but might make it a pain for solo pulling.Not sure if the other AA line which increase arrow range applies to this ability or not, but it should. I had to despec that to spec Hook Arrow so I wont know personally for a while.  Before, the 25 m range attacks were increased to 29 m range with the alternate AA.Anyway, I also hate this change, Surveilance was one of the things that made me fell truely usefull on some raids.Corwin D'Amber - 70 Ranger on Antonia Bayle<div></div>

[Ruldayen]

<P>Was reading somewhere that PvP rangers were useing it in cities to argo pets into combat. Was that True? If so they did put that in the patch notes.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ruldayen</P>

[panther55]

This is ridiculous because this is the one way we had an utility in a group. It is even more ridiculous that it is not even mentioned in the patch notes. <div></div>

[Starwindz]

<DIV>Sigh..........</DIV>

[FluffyDestroyerofWorlds]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Barramundi wrote:[...] why does the surveil line have to cause social agro? Is it unbalancing the game in some respect  or does it create difficulties on the pvp server? In the early days of eq2 stalk/surveil abilities could pull mobs back to the group without attacking the ranger at all. Seems to me it was a great predator defining ability, now it is just a stealth with deagro.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Barramundi,It is so simple: It is (was?) one of the few group utility type things that Rangers still have (had?).  If this is a PvP related nerf, imnsho, SoE can go pound gritty silica up its orfice of egress...-Smoothie70 RangerMistmoore</div><p>Message Edited by FluffyDestroyerofWorlds on <span class=date_text>12-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 AM</span>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ruldayen wrote:<BR> <P>Was reading somewhere that PvP rangers were useing it in cities to argo pets into combat. Was that True? If so they did put that in the patch notes.</P> <P>Ruldayen</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, and again we are at the usual suspect, PvP. Where exactly does it say in the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=343" target=_blank>patch notes</A>? I see nothing related to Surveillance or PvP.

[Hisvet]

<DIV>I'd love more information on Hook Arrow</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all the range.  Are you SURE the range is 25 meters?  Do you use a shortbow?  Because with a long bow all my attack CAs seem to be the range of the bow 35 meters.  Have you tried using Hook Arrow with a long bow?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You said they arrive angry, are they appearing and immediately engaging?  Do you have time to elude or surveillance while a tank taunts?  Even if its only a second?  Have you tried having intercession, or other aggro switching cas placed upon you before the pull so it switches to them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do they bring any social with them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do they bring their linked critters with them or ONLY that mob, thereby breaking the encounter from multiple to one?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I'm going to waste 20 AAs for a substitute pulling CA I'd love the answers.</DIV>

[Jeris Nefz]

<P>I say fine... let the summoners die on the pull instead of the preds.  /Washes hands from pulling mobs  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Seriously though, if this was overpowering to the predators (being able to skip content), then they should also do the same for summoners.  How many people you know use pet pulls to grab targets?  Me too... a ton.  </P>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeris Nefzen wrote:<BR> <P>I say fine... let the summoners die on the pull instead of the preds.  /Washes hands from pulling mobs  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Seriously though, if this was overpowering to the predators (being able to skip content), then they should also do the same for summoners.  How many people you know use pet pulls to grab targets?  Me too... a ton. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not a good idea.  Now that I can't surv pull, I'm going to depend on the pet pulls.<BR></P> <P>Edit:  Just wanted to add.  This isn't just a nerf to predators, it's a nerf to your entire raid party.</P><p>Message Edited by Gareorn on <span class=date_text>12-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:59 AM</span>

[Jeris Nefz]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeris Nefzen wrote:<BR> <P>I say fine... let the summoners die on the pull instead of the preds.  /Washes hands from pulling mobs  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Seriously though, if this was overpowering to the predators (being able to skip content), then they should also do the same for summoners.  How many people you know use pet pulls to grab targets?  Me too... a ton. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not a good idea.  Now that I can't surv pull, I'm going to depend on the pet pulls.<BR></P> <P>Edit:  Just wanted to add.  This isn't just a nerf to predators, it's a nerf to your entire raid party.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gareorn on <SPAN class=date_text>12-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>If this was an intended nerf (which I think it probably was, but just my speculation) so that we wouldn't skip content, it should be done for all classes, not just a select few.  Mind you, I am not advocating for that.  I am just saying if that was the reasoning behind the change, then it should be for all classes.   Unfortunately we are all speculating about why, so this is just one possibility.  I would prefer to be able to pull one target out.  It was one of the things I got to do on a regular basis not only in raids but also in regular groups.  As a matter of fact, I wish it were still 50m instead of 35m.  But it doesn't look like either of those things are going to happen, so I guess I will just deal with it.  (FWIW, I was joking... trying not to take rangering too seriously.. it's bad for the blood pressure.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  )<BR></P>

[Ruldayen]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffcc00><FONT color=#ffffff><BR> </FONT></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jarlaxle888 wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>Yeah, and again we are at the usual suspect, PvP. Where exactly does it say in the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=343" target=_blank>patch notes</A>? I see nothing related to Surveillance or PvP.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></SPAN> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=165" target=_blank>Patch notes </A></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffcc00><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffcc00><STRONG>*** Gameplay ***</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN>- </SPAN><SPAN>Gorenaire and Talendor have had their resistances lowered except for their affinity elements (cold and fire respectively).</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN>- </SPAN><SPAN>Talendor's AE has been changed from being unresistable to now able to be resisted by high heat resistances.  Gorenaire's AE's did not have this problem and remain unchanged.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>- The issue causing various item reversions such as items becoming unattuned has been resolved.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>- In city zones, Stalk and Surveillance can no longer be used to force pets into attacking when they are set to protect/guard.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Ruldayen </SPAN></P></DIV>

[doyler2k]

huh...city zones? Since when does city zones encompass the whole of norrath plus some <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Btw has anyone seen or heard anything from a GM/Red name on these boards recently?This really blows as it makes it even more difficult to solo let alone offer some sort of utility. merry christmas everyone...compliments of SoE <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Torrin]

Okay.. The theory to put more emphasis on a ranger pulling with Hook Arrow now, is hogwash.Hook Arrow generates as much aggro to everything around the target as a normal arrow shot does.. Add to that the apparently high rate of failing to hook your target ( I get a failed hook seems every 2-3 tries both PvE and PvP).  Surveillance was the best skill Rangers had for PvE, the Best.  It gave us a reason to be in a group.Yeah it made a few zones a little easier / quicker, made raids a little less stressful but both Rangers and Assassins could do it. So it's not like it was a 1-class-only sort of deal. I've /bugged it, my guildmates have /bugged, a lot of Rangers I know have /bugged it.IMO it should be set back.  What's the point of having an in-combat DeAgro / Stealth as a lv.70 skill when it's now only slightly better than it's predacessor?Besides, good Rangers on Raids take enough care of their DPS not to draw Agro in the first place and we got Elude to ditch it when we get it anyway.First we're gypped by our highest damage spell being an Ancient Teaching, then we're gypped on EoF AAs (just go look at an Assassin's new tree sometime).Our Skills are below par compared to most of the other classes in the game.. Our only real advantage is we can do consistant damage instead of burst damage in a Raid.. wooped de doo. That "consistant" damage requires either A) you're a woodworker / friends with a woodworker or B) Rich enough to afford 2p / Raid in Arrows Alone.. that's bare minimum costs, not counting poisons and potions.Really thinking the Dev's need to reevaluate the Ranger class again and bring it inline with the others.Furies, Wardens, Templars have all outdamaged me with ease.. HEALING classes, you know the classes that were designed to be non-offensive curative classes? they're out damaging a class that was designed as pure DPS... no-one else see a problem with that picture?Everyday I come closer and closer to wanting to betray my geared up 70 Ranger to become an Assassin, starting almost fresh with Gear since I have mostly Relic pieces now.  <div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>rain420 wrote:Okay.. The theory to put more emphasis on a ranger pulling with Hook Arrow now, is hogwash.Hook Arrow generates as much aggro to everything around the target as a normal arrow shot does.. Add to that the apparently high rate of failing to hook your target ( I get a failed hook seems every 2-3 tries both PvE and PvP).  Surveillance was the best skill Rangers had for PvE, the Best.  It gave us a reason to be in a group.Yeah it made a few zones a little easier / quicker, made raids a little less stressful but both Rangers and Assassins could do it. So it's not like it was a 1-class-only sort of deal. I've /bugged it, my guildmates have /bugged, a lot of Rangers I know have /bugged it.IMO it should be set back.  What's the point of having an in-combat DeAgro / Stealth as a lv.70 skill when it's now only slightly better than it's predacessor?Besides, good Rangers on Raids take enough care of their DPS not to draw Agro in the first place and we got Elude to ditch it when we get it anyway.First we're gypped by our highest damage spell being an Ancient Teaching<b>, <font color="#ff0000">then we're gypped on EoF AAs (just go look at an Assassin's new tree sometime).</font><font color="#ff0000">Our Skills are below par compared to most of the other classes in the game..</font> <font color="#ccff00">Our only real advantage is we can do consistant damage instead of burst damage in a Raid.. wooped de doo. That "consistant" damage requires either A) you're a woodworker / friends with a woodworker or B) Rich enough to afford 2p / Raid in Arrows Alone.. that's bare minimum costs, not counting poisons and potions.</font></b><font color="#6666ff"><b>Really thinking the Dev's need to reevaluate the Ranger class again and bring it inline with the others.Furies, Wardens, Templars have all outdamaged me with ease.. HEALING classes, you know the classes that were designed to be non-offensive curative classes? they're out damaging a class that was designed as pure DPS... no-one else see a problem with that picture?</b></font><font color="#ff0000"><b>Everyday I come closer and closer to wanting to betray my geared up 70 Ranger to become an Assassin, starting almost fresh with Gear since I have mostly Relic pieces now.  </b></font><div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">Assassins have the advantage without the EoF aa's, with the EoF aa's its ment to ballance the two classes.. Please step back and think about this.<font color="#ccff00">Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.<font color="#6666ff">Could you please post some parsings on this subject? I havent seen any fury/templar/warden/defiler etc do more than 400 consistantly.. I realize a fury can AE for quite abit, so thats why I am asking for<u> zone parsings</u>.. If you yourself are doing 1k average, your on the lower/middle end of being a ranger, if your hitting 1.5k+ every fight and healers are holding that dps then that seriously needs to be looked into.. But as things are, I dont see that in my parsings, the healers that I know etc..<font color="#6666ff"> I dont know anything abou tyou or your character, so please educate me.</font></font></font></font></div>

[Taubin]

<div>/snip<blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ccff00">Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.</font></font></div><hr></blockquote>You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]./stepoffsoapbox</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>GTaubin wrote:<div>/snip<blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ccff00">Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.</font></font></div><hr></blockquote>You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]./stepoffsoapbox</div><hr></blockquote>And I completely agree with you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GTaubin wrote:<BR> <DIV>/snip<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote: <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><BR><FONT color=#ccff00>Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<BR><BR><BR>/stepoffsoapbox<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can only say 'amen'.

[Mikeyb_71]

I was just doing a quest in Loping Plains for the Sonborn camp or whatever. I have no trouble pulling only the gremlin tricksters out of the gremlin muses with the surveil line.Matter of fact and embarassment, I'm using M1 Improved Surveil, instead of Surveillance. Thanks to this thread, I realized I hadn't upgraded it since I was 70 in the summer.Rah<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Those can be arrow pulled too.</DIV>

[whytakemine]

<div><blockquote><hr>GTaubin wrote:<div>/snip<blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ccff00">Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.</font></font></div><hr></blockquote>You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]./stepoffsoapbox</div><hr></blockquote>Obviously you're still stuck in the KoS mindset.  Every expansion it seems like the "top" dps gets shuffled a bit.  For EoF it looks like it's going to be necro's (still), wizzie's, and swashies.  Once everyone has their 100 AA's I'd expect rangers to outparse assassins.  In DoF no one could touch rangers.  Everyone has their time in the limelight, and I'm ok with that.  I do have a slight problem with classes with much more utility (necro's especially, but also swashies) being able to consistently out dps the supposed T1 classes. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  What's the point in rolling a sorceror or predator if I could bring more dps and more utility (rez, heal, feign death, mana regen, group buffs) to the raid by rolling a necro instead?Even without the T8 ammo, a ranger can easily break 1k dps zonewide, which is nothing to sneer at.  Our ranger does anyway, and we're a non-uber raiding alliance as well.Alright, I'm done stirring the pot.  I just hopped over to see what you all were saying about the surveilance change. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[LoreLady]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> whytakemine wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GTaubin wrote:<BR> <DIV>/snip<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote: <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><BR><FONT color=#ccff00>Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<BR><BR><BR>/stepoffsoapbox<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Obviously you're still stuck in the KoS mindset.  Every expansion it seems like the "top" dps gets shuffled a bit.  For EoF it looks like it's going to be necro's (still), wizzie's, and swashies.  Once everyone has their 100 AA's I'd expect rangers to outparse assassins.  In DoF no one could touch rangers.  <STRONG>Everyone has their time in the limelight, and I'm ok with that.  I do have a slight problem with classes with much more utility (necro's especially, but also swashies) being able to consistently out dps the supposed T1 classes. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  What's the point in rolling a sorceror or predator if I could bring more dps and more utility (rez, heal, feign death, mana regen, group buffs) to the raid by rolling a necro instead?<BR></STRONG><BR>Even without the T8 ammo, a ranger can easily break 1k dps zonewide, which is nothing to sneer at.  Our ranger does anyway, and we're a non-uber raiding alliance as well.<BR><BR>Alright, I'm done stirring the pot.  I just hopped over to see what you all were saying about the surveilance change. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which is why we can never keep anyone happy <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If we turn around and give summoners/rouges nerfs so that sorc's/preds stay ontop.. Theres going to be a huge whine there - look how rouges are taking AR lol <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. And if we have preds/sorc's ontop of everyone else the summoners/rouges will complain that they arent doing enough dps...</P> <P>So... Who do we keep happy?</P> <P>If there is evidence that rouges/summoners are outdamaging preds/summoners I would like to see it.. Unfortunatly, I dont have 100 aa myself.. And neither does most in my guild I cant judge, I can judge on parsings ive seen from other guilds that are still comming in (and thank you guys btw).. And from my own experiances..  If you have zonewide parsings that show summoners/rouges REDICULUSLY high  I would like to see it.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>12-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 PM</span>

[fioremag]

<DIV>im thinking there may have been a ninja patch yesturday to fix this because i have been survalance pulling  mobs near social agro yesturday and i havnt had any social agro and this was down in klakanon i need to try other places again</DIV>

[fioremag]

well i tried it in mistmore castle cant survanlance anything in there qwithout agroin ther whole zone so seems to be working on in certain places which is wierd

[Gareorn]

Didn't work so well in Kaladim today either.

[Prandtl]

<DIV>It worked as it always did in Loping Plains a few days ago.  I was pulling mobs out of the middle of other mobs with no aggro problems.  Maybe its the level of the mob?  Greens and blues came easily, but I didn't try it on even con and higher mobs. </DIV>

[doyler2k]

just recently i learned that wizzies/warlocks can do surviellance pulls(old style ofc).Is this intended?Since they get 2 roots and other means of stopping mobs briefly.And they also get a long recast temp mit buff when their HP drops below 30%. what is SoE playing at...why can the heavy nukers do things that us predators are supposed to the experts at.Presently it sucks to solo as a ranger as any social aggro and we are kinda stuffed <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not asking for sorcerors to be nerfed but its by  far unfair imo to have them have a skill that allows them to pinpoint a named amongst social aggro and pull out,before root/nuking it to oblivion. Maybe im taking this So-Called fix a little worse than others.As it stands presently, surviel CA is remarkably similar to the Concusive spell that wiz/warlocks get.It reduces aggro and interupts target briefly,surviel is reduced aggro and stealth.See the comparisons? Im gonna suggest that wizards pull mobs on raids from now on...as their warlock counter parts die enough as it is <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Your views on this would be interesting. I also have a lvl70 warlock alt so not like id be asking for a nerf but more so a fix. Its xmas after all...better to give than recieve.... <div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>So, let me get this straight.  Monks/Bruisers are the best scouting classes (FD allows them to go places no scout can go) and Wizzies/Warlocks are the best pulling classes.  Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?</DIV>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>and Wizzies/Warlocks are the best pulling classes.  Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you mean Conjy's and Necros? I fail to see how wizzies and warlocks pull well... Pet pulling though, that's another thing all together.

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>and Wizzies/Warlocks are the best pulling classes.  Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you mean Conjy's and Necros? I fail to see how wizzies and warlocks pull well... Pet pulling though, that's another thing all together.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nope.  I meant what I said.  I was refering to Doyler2k's post about the spell Concusive.  Pet pulling does gain social aggro and is only useful if you have the distance to support that kind of pull.  Definately not very useful in zones that respawn.<BR>

[Hisvet]

<P>Granted that forums are all about hearsay but I'd like some definitive post-LU30 test results with the whole line of surveillance.</P> <P>It does not do us any good to have some rangers saying "this pulls without aggro" and other saying "this pulls the whole room".</P> <P>I'd like to know if at least the top 3 surveillance line CAs work only for a deaggro stealth (what it was intended for against normal mobs, heroic mobs, epic mobs, mobs high level then you) or if they are pulling CAs.</P> <P>My own attempts to surveillance A3 pull in labs on mobs we always pull was unsuccessful  just following LU 30.  It pulled aggro.  I have since Mastered it up and would not mind trying the lesser surveillance lines in labs.  If my guild lets me experiment I'll post it up.  But it would be nice from the lower-level rangers all the way through to see if we can get specific information or if people are "successfully pulling with it, because its really not a social mob anyway."  I'd like to at least dispel any rumors of what works and doesn't.  It also would not suprise me if when SOE "mixed lvl 70" it broke the ones before so I'd be curious to know what is really going on with the line or if it can be consigned once and for all to deaggro/stealth only.</P> <P>Testing it against solo, grouped, heroic, epic and higher level mobs then you would be very useful to know.</P> <P> </P>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>and Wizzies/Warlocks are the best pulling classes.  Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you mean Conjy's and Necros? I fail to see how wizzies and warlocks pull well... Pet pulling though, that's another thing all together.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nope.  I meant what I said.  I was refering to Doyler2k's post about the spell Concusive.  Pet pulling does gain social aggro and is only useful if you have the distance to support that kind of pull.  Definately not very useful in zones that respawn.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh yeah, totaly forgot about the Concusive changes. Seems strange that they'd make our deagros social and not another classes. Perhaps an over sight...

[doyler2k]

oversight on predator's behalf...otherwise i cant see how other classes are given/allowed advantage f pulling without social aggro.imho they should just unbug/refix surviellance to its original form.Otherwise as predetors we aint exactly stealthy if we cant single pick a mob and kill it. Still would like to see a SoE dev/red name comment on this problem/bug <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It doesnt take much really to let our loyal and mostly dedicated rangers the reason to go on... <div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>I know what you mean.  Even if this wasn't in the Ranger's arsenal, you'd think it would at least work for an Assassin.  I mean, what kind of an assassin would you be if you couldn't sneak in undetected to kill your target?  Isn't that the sort of thing you'd expect an assassin to be able to do from a roleplaying perspective?</DIV>

[Hisvet]

<P>If we could stop mourning about it and kvetching on other classes and do some testing to see just what we DO have currently I think we might see something very screwed up and that is something I doubt was intended.</P> <P>I could not do conclusive tests last night in the Labs because we just needed to get through it quickly and didn't have the healing.  What I did find out was this:</P> <P>We do labs every week in about 2 hours they are very predictable pulls to us so we know when we'll get 2 mobs with social or not.  This was the second time I tried pulling in labs since the bork.  We had 4 rangers and 1 assassin with various levels of Surveil, Improved Surveil and Surveillance but I only used A3s and M1s to pull test.  And before anyone says anything, yes we have a LOT of rangers in my guild.  We've done labs with NO mages, this last time we had 2, its just the way the guild works sometimes, we get stuff done anyway (even Deathtoll).</P> <P>First time in labs we tried using the A3 version and the A1 version of Surveillance level 70 on the trash mobs in the first part of the dungeon and it pulled social post LU 30 where it never had before.  It also pulled it in social at the Doomsworn Droag before Corsolander where it never had before.</P> <P>Last night I wanted to see if an A3 version of Improved Surveil and A3 of Surveil did the same.  It did NOT.  They did not pull social aggro and pulling with those two in Labs on the yellow heroic 3^^^s operated just like the old Surveillance lvl 70.  Tried again with Surveillance M1.  Social Aggro pulled.</P> <P>So the lvl 50s and 40s of the line worked on the 4 pulls we tried.  The lvl 70 failed by pulling social.</P> <P>I could look at a map and tell you exactly where the pulls occurred given time and this was not conclusive because the MT would not let us test before the Doomsworn Droag again.  I suggest all of get out your OLDER versions of Surveillance and test them in each instance you go in to.</P> <P>It might work in one instance and not in another.  It might be that in "fixing" lvl 70 they broke the earlier versions again.  Somehow it seems consistant in the line that what lvl 70 IS is *not* what the others of the line ARE.  I have an Assassin in my guild in her 30s saying she's using surveil pulls in Runnyeye without any aggro problems.</P> <P>It IS possible in adjusting for no pet aggro in the city zones they DID bork Surveillance.  Its also possible in 'fixing' lvl 70 they threw off the whole rest of the line again.  Its possible some zones work and some dont.  Do some tests, try it. bring back answers.  I'll copy this to the Assassin page so they can test too. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>It's also possible that the lower level versions didn't pull aggro because they were resisted by the pulled target.  Not that this is a problem.  Because it if works, who really cares why it works as long as the pull is successful.  This is only speculation, but we have a lab run scheduled for tonight so I'll be looking to do some testing (if allowed).</DIV>

[Hisvet]

<P>Well thats the thing a white and yellow heroic ^^^ mob should or could have resisted the Surveil and Improved Surveil pulls all together.  In which case they should have just stood there and never come as I have witnessed with resisted surveillance pulls.  But that is not what happened.  Surveil and Imp Surveil worked for us the 4 pulls we used them on.  Master 1 Surveillance failed each time and pulled social aggro.</P> <P>If you can test, please do so.</P> <P> </P>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>10/28/06 Testing in Lab..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>APP4 Surveil failed all tests</DIV> <DIV>AD1 Improved Surveil failed all tests</DIV> <DIV>AD3 Surveillance failed all tests</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who do I send my repair bill to again? :smileytongue:</DIV>

[Badaxe Ba]

Tested improved surveil in valdoons last night, failed.  Used adept I.

[S1llyRabbit]

<div></div><div></div>What's the latest on the lvl 70 surveil master?  Is it bugged, nerfed, or what?  I used it in New Tunaria a couple weeks ago and pulled another mob outside the one I surveiled (happened several times).  I've been afraid to use it in a group or raid ever since.edit...Oh, forgot to mention that I used it in COV 2 nights ago on a room full of werewolves (non-linked)...it failed.<div></div><p>Message Edited by S1llyRabbit on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>The non-social aggro aspect has been removed.  It still puts you in stealth and dumps aggro.</DIV>

[Zendi_Perma]

<DIV>Improved Surveil seemed to work some of the time in Labs, but not others.     Surveillance seems to work fine on the chaperones in MMIS without pulling other aggro.</DIV>

[Tarryn]

<DIV>Say it ain't so!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I take a few weeks off for the holidays and stuff...and we get nerfed AGAIN?  Once again because of PvP?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know, I've been defending SoE from all nay-sayers for six years now...in EQ, in SWG beta and live, in Planetside beta, on various other SoE related forums...but I'm done.  Had it.  Burnt out.  Finished.  Stick a fork in me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've played ranger type classes in just about every MMO that's come down the pike, going back to MUDs back in the early 90s.  I thought EQ2 had the ranger just about right.  A bit too powerful in DoF, sure.  But after nerf after nerf after nerf...the removal of every kind of advantage rangers had...I really just don't have much desire to log in anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey, a dev has finally said they're going to look into our arrow consumption issues!  A day late and a dollar short, in my opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck to all you rangers who stick with it, though.  I admire your perseverance.</DIV>