Arrows - bloody hell

[heha33]

<DIV>Well was taking a look at how much arrows are really costing me and what i found was quite unreal and kinda upset me.</DIV> <DIV>I usually work nights so the nights i do have off i usually raid so i dont really have alot of time to make any extra cash except for little masters that take forever to sell, so i go through arrows like mad. I carry a 16 slot quiver  which is about 1580 arrows, and i dont have a fabled arrow summoning bow and i have yet been able to afford or loot the reclaimed m1 yet . As every ranger knows this only take about the good part of an hour and a half or so into a raid night to go through, so they dont last long at all.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if u take the adamantine arrows from vendors they are like 6 silver an arrow</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6 x 99 = 594 silver which in return is about 6 gold</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6 x 16 = 96 gold  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thats almost a plat to get about 2 hours worth of raiding along with struggling to to get top 5 or so on the dps charts.... and this is all excluding poisons...to my knowledge there is no other class that has to spend so much just to function properly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is slowly eating away at my will to play knowing that im in a round about circle with making a lil money and spending all of it on arrows so i can raid the next day. I know there have been numerous posts on this subject but by now something should have been done because it truley is getting ridiculous.  As a ranger using bows as our PRIMARY form of damage dealing i would think there would be a way to get arrows cheaper than other classes or at least get something like unlimited arrows aa, or make more arrow summoning bows or raise the reclaimed skill to maybe a stack a summon and change the recast time or SOMETHING. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So anywho just wanted to get that out from my well kept to self...if anyone else has any comments or anything that would be cool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have a great Day</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hehaheha 70th Ranger of <U>Ascension</U></DIV> <DIV>Butcherblock</DIV>

[Nulad]

Yah,I end up hunting with tin arrows and saving all my reclaimed ones for raid/group useage. Way way way to costly otherwise <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I was invited on a RAID by my brother the other night and refused, when he asked me why I explained about how much it would cost me to come along and he just couldn't quite believe it.The whole reclaimed line needs to have it's numbers upped significantly.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>I think we are our own worst enemy here.  Some of us have been raiding pretty regular for over a year and have been complaining about this for over a year.  At the same time, many of us who don't raid regularly, continue to state that there isn't a problem with arrow usage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So we now have a solution with the EoF AA tree.  We can put AA points into a skill that will double our reclaimed arrow output.  The only problem is that the people who would benefit from this is the raiders.  But, no raider in his/her right mind is going to choose more free arrows over a skill that will increase their DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should have been more specific when we asked for a fix on arrow consumption.</DIV>

[Nulad]

Maybe, but even without raiding I go through way more arrows than I can get for free, plus even the doubling via EoF AA wont fix the problem for a Raiding Ranger.<div></div>

[nirav21]

<P>Its a pretty good idea to put aa points into the Backup quiver. Even if you raid.</P> <P>Since after do poisions let say 15 and put about 20 in Multishot since i dunt think u wana put em in Steam of arrows.</P> <P>There isnt really others left. Maybe focusing but to get to that you have to waste points into defensive stance or traping. Which also doesnt help dps.... </P> <P>So might as well put em in Backup quiver since more T7 arrows = more dps. </P>

[Lev]

Yes in my opinion this is our bigges issue. Yea alot bigger than the DPS issue going around. In the end it is possible for a ranger to be within reach of an assasin and I don't even want to go into this.Arrows Arrows Arrows. yea it is not unusual to spend about 2k arrows on a raid, and I even find I spend about 1k arrows on a normal heroic instance (of course this depends).to make this a bit clearer, for a ranger to be able to support his/her raiding with makeshift arrows he/she would have to spend adept 1 - 9 hours and 30 minutes = 2000 arrowsadept 3 - 7 hours and 20 minutes = 2000 arrowsMaster 1 - 5 hours and 30 minutes =2000 arrowsthe numbers are ca. but even with a master we are talking over 5 hours of no adventuring just doing nothing but using your reclaimed skill to be able to do a raid, or hunt for 1 day. This is extreme and is very unfair. No other classes have this kind of arrow usage, no other class is dependant on arrows to function, no other class need to spend over 50% of their gametime gathering arrows. Also if you get the AAs for it you can halve those times, and that helps alot, but as earlier said most rangers will have a hard time leaving a dps benefiting ability to get more arrows.This in effect nerf our class in other areas as well. It means we make less money, we get less xp, we have less chance of getting masters or loot that can benefit us. Cause all of these other things involve spending time on it, time we have to spend gathering arrows. And you can claim that we should buy them, then we spend money and money = time to add to this money = time using arrows. In other words having ends meet is hard then too. This is a balance issue that affects all rangers, not just raiders, pvpers, groupers, or soloers.And to add to the whole issue is the space it takes. It is not unusal for a ranger to keep 2-3 quivers or backpacks full of arrows on them at all times. Which in effect means we fill up our inventory quicker and in effect can lead to less loot or more time spent on going to vendor/broker which in effect means less money.And don't come with the "we should be glad quivers exist, we used to have to equip every 99 arrows" I was here when this was the reality and yea that sucked, but this ain't all that good either.1 Quivers should have more slots, more slots than 32 slot boxes, after all there is only one type of items that go into them. 2 arrow summoning line should give more arrows, ALOT more arrowsthe only workaround that currently exist is having one of the 2 DT bows, which then gives you<div></div>Ichor/Bazkul - 1 hour and 50 minutes = 2000 arrowsthe only problem is that both these bows drop from mobs in a raid zone that is very hard.Now I am not saying every ranger should have t8 ammo, but I really think all rangers should be able to support their own usage without having to spend countless arrows or multiple plats.As I allready said IMO this is the biggest issue with rangers atm, screw all the dps complaining, fact is if you work hard enough and find out how to use your class to the fullest you can do better than most. And yea I still think there is a big lack in bows in this game, and to think there are more shield models than there are bow models is kind of disturbing, (as of now there are only 4 differnet bow models, if you count shortbow, and 2 of them are very new and only on fabled bows). I am not saying the model of the bow is a make or break, but it just shows us even more how we have a lower priority than most. Or at least it feels that way.Sorry didn't mean to rant at the end there, but I couldn't help myself. My 2 copper

[Caliga]

The first time I realized my arrows cost over a plat I sat in front of the merchant and wept like a little girl, but she wouldn't go down on the price.   <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Mirdo]

<div><blockquote><hr>nirav21 wrote:<div></div> <p>Its a pretty good idea to put aa points into the Backup quiver. Even if you raid.</p> <p>Since after do poisions let say 15 and put about 20 in Multishot since i dunt think u wana put em in Steam of arrows.</p> <p>There isnt really others left. Maybe focusing but to get to that you have to waste points into defensive stance or traping. Which also doesnt help dps.... </p> <p>So might as well put em in Backup quiver since more T7 arrows = more dps. </p><hr></blockquote>I think ignoring the focus line is a bad move for a raiding raider but each to their own <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Even without Ichor to summon I doubt I would have placed any points in the summon ability.Mirdo.</div>

[Peadar2]

<DIV>/bump, Come on SOE fix this! having an issue with getting arrows is one of the dumbest things ever in this game, completely pointless and serves no purpose other than to make the Ranger gaming more frustrating!</DIV>

[Caliga]

<div><blockquote><hr>Peadar2 wrote:<div>/bump, Come on SOE fix this! having an issue with getting arrows is one of the dumbest things ever in this game, completely pointless and serves no purpose other than to make the Ranger gaming more frustrating!</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, if there were an endless arrow quiver I would buy it even if it was 10plat.  Why?  Because that would probably save me about 30plat between now and 70 and god forbid I ever decide to raid.</div>

[Culgar]

I mean this cost would be PERFECTLY acceptable if different arrows made significant differences in DPS, or if we were back up at T1 dps   (before any raiders say they are T1 dps, an afk wizard can usually equal a ranger sweating in effort throwing poisons and arrows with wanton abandon) But there's no flipp'n reason to have us have LIMITED ammo and still not a terrorfying source of DPS.  <div></div>

[Zholain]

<div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">RabbitFly wrote:Arrows Arrows Arrows. yea it is not unusual to spend about 2k arrows on a raid, and I even find I spend about 1k arrows on a normal heroic instance (of course this depends).</font><hr></blockquote><font size="2">LOL   Try running HoF, and then Obelisk or Crypt in the afternoon, then raid that night.  You might make it through the night, but you'll be out of luck the next day.  Unless you were carrying 6 bags + 1 quiver full of nothing but arrows, you can't function the next day without spending 5 or 6 plat on arrows from the vendor.  It's incredibly frustrating.</font></div>

[Sannavekk]

<P>What bugs me is that, finally after raiding hundreds of times I got the ichorstrand bow that summons ammo. It does 99 every 5 minutes so it's a big saver of money.</P> <P>Too bad he bow itself is terrible. I still use the Grizzfazzle's as my bow with the ichor ammo. I assume it'll be hundreds of more hours before I have a good damage bow.</P> <P>Anyhow ina  non raid situation you'll see me using only caress of the banshee poison off the vendor for da cheap. I don't break out the good stuff (Grandmaster;s all 3  until a raid)So what bothers me is that as a class which seems to offer little else than dps to a Raid group has to spend <STRONG>mega bucks</STRONG> and get <STRONG>super rare fabled dr</STRONG>ops just to compete.</P> <P>All this so i can maybe get in the top 7 on the parse behind the 2k dps Necros Conjs and Assassins and the slightly lower Wizzies and Warlocks.</P> <P>Don't want to seem as if I am just whining. I really love the play style of the Ranger. I am just sad. seriously. I feel i have mastered the toon for it's top potential. I used to always top the dps rankings. I'm continuosly experimenting with ways to increase my dps..but I see myself fall farther and farther behind. I feel so worthless ina  raid. Maybe they'll let me surveil pull a mob :-/ </P> <P>approx. 50 gold on poisons or trying to cajole a guildie to make some for free and then I am mediocre. So basically I play my Fury at raids and break out the ranger for fun in groups occasionally.</P><p>Message Edited by Sannavekk on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:12 AM</span>

[kartikeya]

<P>I tend to raid about two or three nights a week. When I'm not raiding, I'm almost always dinking around solo with quests. I almost never group. A lot of the time, I'm just screwing around and doing nothing productive.</P> <P>Plenty of time to summon arrows, yeah?</P> <P>I am <EM>still</EM> running low, unless I literally sit online all freaking day and hit the summon button every time it comes up. When I have to buy arrows to make up for a shortage it makes me ill. I'm not exactly made of money, and poisons alone are killing my bank account.</P> <P>I agree with what was said above. IF I could do awesome DPS and come even close to outmatching, say, oh, SUMMONERS, I wouldn't complain nearly so much. Lately I've been farming on alts almost solely because I'm hurting that much for money. Half a plat or more for poisons, a plat or more for arrows, every single night I wanna raid, and all of that and I'm routinely outdone in damage by summoners, wizards, assassins, and sometimes brigands. And not by a little either...when I'm happy to break 1200, the necro hits 2k+ routinely. It's very, very irking to break the bank just trying to keep a place on the rankings, and to still be so incredibly outdone in every single field, from DPS to utility, by classes that often don't have to pay for anything but food and drink. </P> <P>I really love playing my ranger. I've got a huge range of alts and not one of them appeals to me as much as she does. But man, is it ever frustrating at the exact same time.</P>

[BSbon]

i did a small group last night and by the end i was down 900 arrows. maybe 1 hour worth of play. i have the 62 M1 summon spell. the solution is not more arrows per summon. i already sacrifice 1 bag slot with a quiver and i dont want to lose more loot space for more arrows. they should eliminate arrow consumption on CAs and should only use arrows on auto attack.

[Lev]

Bongo makes an extremely good point, for many reasons.First off this would counter the issue with inventory space somewhat. Second off this would counter the extreme usage of arrows somewhat. And why the heck are we paying 6s or time to do one arrow attack, that is not affected by the arrow what so ever. yea you can look at it the logical way, how can we shoot an arrow we don't have. But if to loose some sense of realism is what we need to do then by god loose it. Having to carry 10k arrows around isn't overly realistic either. However with just auto attack (in pure numbers) you still use around 120-150 arrows per 10min, which is alot more than any (again excluding the DT bows) summon spell can summon. Yea this would cut down the timesink ALOT, only having to carry around arrows for auto-attack makes a ton of a difference, but I still say give us a bit more on the summon spells and slightly bigger quivers. The reason is I don't want to see something be half fixed, however I would take the "CAs no longer require arrows" with arms wide open, and a crying heart for gods sake.There is one problem in all of this, and that is the woodworkers, but then again the crafted arrows are worthless, because vendor arrows are still cheaper. I don't know how they should fix woodworking in that sens, but then again they might not. They allready have totems and that is enough consumables isn't it?the bottomline is something needs to be done, it simply is not fair as I have showed with numbers on my previous post. I think I am leaning against bongo's solution atm, because it fixes so much with such a little change. Kinda make things simpler instead of complicating it (like my solution earlier).<div></div>

[Gerdos]

<P>Arrow consumption is the biggest issue for rangers in game atm.</P> <P>RabbitFly's post is really informative.   Gives you a very good breakdown of time:supply.</P> <P>The new AA Enhance: Backup quiver is a very nice AA.   With 5 points, you can cut down your time by 50%.   The question is, how many would be prepared to do it, at the cost of some dps.   Well, i guess that depends on how much of a raider you are, your own arrow supply problems .. and the funds you have.   I'd recommend getting this for any raider having issues with arrow supply.  Its a temporary fix until you can get 1 of the DT bows.  At M1, reclaimed arrows and 5 points into Enchanced: Backup Quiver (60 arrows @ 5mins) will put you closer to the lvl of of a DT bows (99 arrows @ 5mins).  You can always /respec your AA once you get a DT bow.</P> <P>Some reminders, just keep spamming arrow supply, each time its up.  Even when your quiver is full, keep spamming it.  Store some in your bank or house vault.  Go with the biggest size quiver you can get.   There's no restrictions on your characters level as to which quiver you can get.   Dont have to buy adamantine arrows all the time.  There's other tier arrows (not just cheap tin, at half the cost of adamantine) available to buy/use for soloing/grouping.   Buying a stack of adamantine is equivalent to getting 1 adept1 loot.   Making money is very easy from vendor loot from general play, whether your soloing or grouping.  Don't complain about arrow supply, if all you do is come online for raids.   You need to put some effort into working on other areas of the game, which is a good opportunity to build up your arrow supply/funds.  </P> <P>Keep pushing your guild to raid DT.   Hard to know for sure if they have increased drop rate on  bows, but in my experience, we had Bazkul drop for 4 weeks straight, leading up to EoF release.  We havent been back since, but going in again today.  (6x bazkul, 3x ichorstrand, 2x recurved heartsinger, 1x dragonhorn recurve, 0 sarnak/corruption is our guilds experience during KoS)</P> <P>The issue  for arrow supply, only applies to raiding rangers.   Casual players need not worry.</P> <P>(DPS in another topic and i'd prefer if it wasnt referred to in this thread.   There's countless threads on DPS.   For the record, DPS is no longer an issue in EoF for rangers ... period.)</P> <P> </P>

[kidpaul]

How about sony adding a system to the game that makes other classes like tanks and primary melee casters having to sharpen their weapon every now and then and mend their shield maybe then other classes realize that being a ranger that has to fork out alot of plat on just maintaining your normal dmg would make them react. I mean a tank that has to haul around 24 different shield just to play a couple of hours would probably be a nice lessons for other players. and not to meantion assassin and other duel wielders would have to run around with atleast 48 different weapons now that would be something to laugh about.<div></div>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div></div> <p>Arrow consumption is the biggest issue for rangers in game atm.</p> <p>RabbitFly's post is really informative.   Gives you a very good breakdown of time:supply.</p> <p>The new AA Enhance: Backup quiver is a very nice AA.   With 5 points, you can cut down your time by 50%.   The question is, how many would be prepared to do it, at the cost of some dps.   Well, i guess that depends on how much of a raider you are, your own arrow supply problems .. and the funds you have.   I'd recommend getting this for any raider having issues with arrow supply.  Its a temporary fix until you can get 1 of the DT bows.  At M1, reclaimed arrows and 5 points into Enchanced: Backup Quiver (60 arrows @ 5mins) will put you closer to the lvl of of a DT bows (99 arrows @ 5mins).  You can always /respec your AA once you get a DT bow.</p> <p>Some reminders, just keep spamming arrow supply, each time its up.  Even when your quiver is full, keep spamming it.  Store some in your bank or house vault.  Go with the biggest size quiver you can get.   There's no restrictions on your characters level as to which quiver you can get.   Dont have to buy adamantine arrows all the time.  There's other tier arrows (not just cheap tin, at half the cost of adamantine) available to buy/use for soloing/grouping.   Buying a stack of adamantine is equivalent to getting 1 adept1 loot.   Making money is very easy from vendor loot from general play, whether your soloing or grouping.  Don't complain about arrow supply, if all you do is come online for raids.   You need to put some effort into working on other areas of the game, which is a good opportunity to build up your arrow supply/funds.  </p> <p>Keep pushing your guild to raid DT.   Hard to know for sure if they have increased drop rate on  bows, but in my experience, we had Bazkul drop for 4 weeks straight, leading up to EoF release.  We havent been back since, but going in again today.  (6x bazkul, 3x ichorstrand, 2x recurved heartsinger, 1x dragonhorn recurve, 0 sarnak/corruption is our guilds experience during KoS)</p> <p>The issue  for arrow supply, only applies to raiding rangers.   Casual players need not worry.</p> <p>(DPS in another topic and i'd prefer if it wasnt referred to in this thread.   There's countless threads on DPS.   For the record, DPS is no longer an issue in EoF for rangers ... period.)</p> <hr></blockquote>You're wrong, arrow supply is a concern for everyone, I have only ever raided once and have arrow issues, and why the hell should I have to hunt to pay for my dps, no other class does, if you're that happy about it then please send me some plat.</div>

[Gerdos]

<P></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, i'm right.  Arrow problem is only a concern for raiding rangers.   Nuladen, If your having problems with arrow supply, your just being lazy.  Crafting, harvesting, questing, exploring, all give enough downtime to build up your arrow supply.   Soloing, grouping will eat away at your supply, but not enough that you can't easily replenish.</P> <P>mmmm, "social welfare" comfortable for you?</P>

[Nulad]

Actually, you're wrong. I rarely craft or harvest because I enjoy neither, this is a game I play for enjoyment not to be able to fight properly. No other class has to spend time crafting or harvesting just so they can aquire ammo. Laziness doesn't come into it and your opinion is just that, an opinion which I, and many others I'd suspect will disagree with.Just because you play that way doesn't mean everybody else should.You might also want to take a good long look at the tone of your reply, it's condescending and offensive.<div></div>

[Gerdos]

<P><BR>I dont craft either, and stopped harvesting very early on in T7 ... but, even in your case, questing, exploring, soloing, grouping, would not be enough to become an issue if you reguarly spam your summoning arrows.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> Nuladen wrote:<BR><BR>You might also want to take a good long look at the tone of your reply, it's condescending and offensive.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It should be, and it was meant to be . . but your reponce left yourself open to it.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[TaleraRis]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div></div><p>The issue  for arrow supply, only applies to raiding rangers.   Casual players need not worry.</p> <hr></blockquote>I'm a soloing ranger who plays nearly every day. I use arrows while I'm out questing. I have issues keeping arrows in my quiver just as a raiding ranger does. It's even worse if I join a group. Unless I take a day off in the week, I end up having to buy from the vendor or from the broker. So no, it's not just a raiding issue. Casual players do need to be concerned with arrow supply.</div>

[LoreLady]

Heres the problem and delema sony faces.. We have to keep rangers happy, we have to keep Woodworkers happy, we have to prioritize what we are doing.. So, heres what is currently on there "to do lists".1:Fixing taunts2: Fixing EoF bugs3: Doing the new armor system4: Class ballance5: Somewhere WAYYY down at the bottom.. Fixing cost of arrows, so that arrows are viable for the woodworker to make and sell that arent just merchent fodder, and making arrows so that they arent costly to rangers but yet will make the woodworker a good coin if they sell to others..I <u>personally</u> think that sony should come out with afew types of arrows.. 1: Elemental errows that are t8 arrows with the damage being in a perticular element2: Extra agro arrows (lets be realistic, how often to fighters etc use bows)3: The bullet - shoots through epic mobs and the entire raidparty while all the phat loots are yours! (note the sarcasm.. GOD PLEASE NOTE THE SARCSASM)Sarcasm aside - not consuming arrows per CA and having the woodworker still make 25 arrows per combine would greatly help our cause, as well as making any kind of t8 arrow - to ballance where rangers/assassins are at the 50 aa line in KoS.. The main problem with any ranged feature - we get the most benifit from it, and is likely to be nerfed because of it.. I will admit it is discouraging being told over a year ago that the devs were going to look into alternitive methods for woodworkers to make money on arrows since the crafting change.. I have zero problem with making a buck off of crusaders/monks/fighters/scouts etc - or providing myself with arrows instead of just summoning..     Unfortunatly, as the system stands; it is not practical for me to make my own arrows and raid.. This is something that should have been changed long ago, we should hope that this change comes through sometime soon once sony starts knocking off items on there "to do list"..And please, dont go all over the place when we dont have something.. Look at the bigger picture of things on what would go wrong.. Its like saying "build that tower for me by noon please" - its just not going to happen.. By the end of it though - rangers will probabbly be the richest class out there simply because of our costs per day and still trying to maintain masters etc.. Or is this sonys way of saying "ok every ranger here, go be an accountant" <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[kartikeya]

<P>I dunno. Working my way through KoS on the climb to 70, if I went on a long solo binge, or a group that lasted more than two hours, I would start running out of arrows. The simple fact is, if you are fighting in /any/ capacity, raid, solo, group, whathaveyou...you are using more arrows than you are gaining, even if you spam your summon skill every time it comes up (as I do). Eventually you are going to run out, and then you either have to buy arrows or take a break from adventuring long enough to build up that supply again. 60 arrows every ten minutes is not enough when you can blow through a full stack or more in that time period.</P> <P>Also, while yes, I agree that the DPS argument exists on about every thread here, I am curious (not questioning, genuinely curious) as to how you feel our DPS issues have been solved. I haven't gone terribly far in the ranger tree, so I honestly don't know. Does it even us out? And most importantly, does it even us out <EM>without having to have two of the rarest/hardest to get weapons in the game.</EM> Needing T8 ammo from Deathtoll PLUS another bow from Halls of Seeing to equal folks wielding gear from Vlabs is NOT equal or balanced, and I'm sorry, it's not going to be balanced no matter how many times someone says 'just get blahblahblah bow and blahblahblah other bow from blahblahblah very high end raid mobs.' If it is the case that we're finally back on equal footing without those giant crutches, then I'll applaud.</P>

[Fonrian]

You should all just switch to PvP servers.  You don't use a lot of arrows in PvP, when you use your backup quiver, you gain more arrows than you spend.  If you raid once or twice a week, you still come out positive with arrows.  I have about 3K arrows in my bank, and 3K on my person. 

[Gerdos]

<P></P> <P>Lorelady, you bring up good points.  I would have loved to see SOE introduce more variety into the crafted arrows available.   What they currently have, is very limited (slash, crush, hunter, rare/mastercrafted arrows) .. and in truth, no longer a nessessity.  Providing arrows with some kind of elemental dmg would have been the obvious path to take.   Sadly, thats not in game, and woodworkers are now for the most part a very limited crafter.</P> <P> </P> <P>Kartikeya, ranger dps is very good right now .... so much so, i'm nervous to discuss it further.   If i have 1 concern, it might be some kind of nerf down the track.  </P> <P>Check 1 of my recent posts about my view on the whole dps/bow debate.  The whole discussion about needing Sarnak/Corruption and a DT bow to do adequate dps was hijacked from its original meaning, that being, you need both only applied if you wanted to do compareable dps to an assassin/rogue with GDoH which is just as rare if not more so then the high end fabled bows.  There are 5x T7 KoS and (atm) 2x T7.5 EoF fabled longbows that will put you into T1 dps range.   Group setup, CA upgrades, AA setup and natural player ability make up a large portion of our dps.</P> <P> </P>

[TaleraRis]

Can you even craft rare any longer? I thought I saw it said before that rare arrows weren't available anymore.<div></div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Rare arrows have been removed from the game.  The only way they exist now is if someone has some left from before KoS.</font><div></div>

[Nulad]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div></div> <p>I dont craft either, and stopped harvesting very early on in T7 ... but, even in your case, questing, exploring, soloing, grouping, would not be enough to become an issue if you reguarly spam your summoning arrows.</p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p></p> <hr> Nuladen wrote:You might also want to take a good long look at the tone of your reply, it's condescending and offensive. <hr> </blockquote> <p>It should be, and it was meant to be . . but your reponce left yourself open to it.</p> <hr></blockquote>No, it's not enough. Don't argue with me, I'm the one running out not you, you have no idea of my playstyle.Yeh, thanks for the abuse, childish at best.</div><p>Message Edited by Nuladen on <span class=date_text>12-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 AM</span>

[Drakall]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>This seems to be a good thread raising some concerns. Lets please try to keep it on track and not let it slip into arguments/bickering.</FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Thank you.</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>

[Lev]

<div></div>Than you Drakall, I would hate to see this thread turn into a flamefest. Just to clearify. Arrow consumption is a problem to all rangers, just not raiding rangers. Making excuses like "you need to spend more time playing so you can collect arrows" is not good enough. Point is not how much arrows you use or how much time you play. It all comes down to percentage. I will demonstrate this with some math based on example playstyles (casual - hardcore)Extremely Casual - 5 hours a weekAn extremely casual player can probably only play weekends, and probably has alot of other stuff that needs to be done, so he gets 2 hours saturday night, and 3 hours sunday morning (this is an example). An extremely casual player will likely not have anything better than an adept 1, so he/she will need to spend over 9 hours to fill a quiver (see my other post on page 1), thats close to 2 weeks. And 5 hours of constant adventuring is anywhere from 2000 to 6000 arrows, for the sake of this example lets say 2000 (cause it is about the number of a quiver and it was used in my other example). So in effect a casual player that only solos and groups need to spend two thirds (2/3) of his gaming time gathering arrows. That is about 67% (rounding numbers) of his/her game time.67%Extremely Hardcore - 7+ hours a day - 49+ hours a week, lets say 50 for this example.Now I am not gonna go into exact things a hardcore player do, cause it differs so much, so for the sense of this example if 5 hours took you 2000 arrows, then 50 hours would take you 20000 arrows. So basicly you multiply it by 10, leading to the exact same %. And to give everyone a little wake up call it would take you 95 hours + to collect anything close to 20000 arrows, which for a hardcore player could be used in a week.67%Of course you cannot really put it like this, cause no player does adventure 100% of his gametime, and some players craft, some players RP, some players do all sorts of things. Point is there is no difference in Hardcore and non hardcore players when it comes down to "time spent collecting vs. time spent using". Also there is the fact that you do gather while adventuring as well. But fact stands that no matter what you do you will have to spend AT LEAST twice the time you adventure collecting arrows. Also this example was shown using adept 1, where an Master 1 would give you more arrows per 10min, but you have to also take into consideration that I used the minimum arrow usage numbers in both calculations, therefore in most cases you will use more than 2/3 of your game time.And I am sorry if this post become confusing, I just wanted to put it black on white to show you that when it comes to "time spent collecting vs. time spent using" there is no difference. Yea a hardcore player spends more time collecting arrows, but he also adventures more. So in the end the timesink is the same. So anyways there you have it black on white, this is very unfair to say the least. For this kind of sacrifice rangers should be gods, best tanks, best dps, best healers. Cause there is no other class in this entire game that needs to spend a minimum of 67% of their gametime doing nothing just to function. I am not saying we should be gods, I am saying arrow consumption should be done something about.<div></div><p>Message Edited by RabbitFly on <span class=date_text>12-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:21 AM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote>Rabbitflyadept 1 - 9 hours and 30 minutes = 2000 arrowsadept 3 - 7 hours and 20 minutes = 2000 arrowsMaster 1 - 5 hours and 30 minutes =2000 arrowsUsing your info here rabbit.<hr></blockquote>In one minute you use 19 arrows with CA's per minuteConfounding arrow 2 arrows per minTrippleVolly 3 arrows per minPrecise shot 6 arrows per minLeg shot 6 arrows per minCulling of the weak 1 arrow per minVieled fire 1 arrow every 1 min 30Shortbows use 13 arrows per min Longbows use 8 arrows per min (rounding down)So, total with shortbows we have 32 arrows per minuteLongbows we have 27 arrows per minuteSo, the time it takes to use 2000 arrows with a shortbow62.5 minsThe time it takes to use 2000 arrows with a longbow74minsThe time it takes to gather 2000 arrows with master 1 reclaimed - 5 hours and 30 minutes...<b>The cost of using a shortbow in the time you can use claim 2000 arrows M1330min - 62.5 = 267.5 minutes*32 arrows per minute = 8560 arrows*7 silver per arrow = 59929 silver or 599 gold, or 6 plat..</b><b>The cost of using a longbow in the time you can gather 2000 arrows m1330min-74= 256 minutes *27 Arrows per minute = 6912*7silver per arrow = 48384 silver, or 483 gold, or 4.8 plat..</b>And I wonder why im broke <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class="date_text">12-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:47 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>12-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 AM</span>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fonrian wrote:<BR> You should all just switch to PvP servers.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Some might consider this measure a little drastic.:smileytongue:

[TaleraRis]

Exactly, Rabbit. I, as a soloing ranger, may not use arrows in the same quantity as a raiding ranger. But I use arrows in the same general ratio as a raiding ranger. We all need them for our CAs and constant use is going to exhaust all of our supplies, no matter how much we supplement it with summoning. Plus I'm in that area where my arrows are a lower tier, leading to less effectiveness and longer fights, meaning I end up using more than if my arrows were tier appropriate. But the ratio of usage still turns out to be very close to the same.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:Exactly, Rabbit. I, as a soloing ranger, may not use arrows in the same quantity as a raiding ranger. But I use arrows in the same general ratio as a raiding ranger. We all need them for our CAs and constant use is going to exhaust all of our supplies, no matter how much we supplement it with summoning. Plus I'm in that area where my arrows are a lower tier, leading to less effectiveness and longer fights, meaning I end up using more than if my arrows were tier appropriate. But the ratio of usage still turns out to be very close to the same.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Most of us realize that arrows hurt in all types of the game - raid/group/solo.. Solo wont hurt "as much" as raids - but it still hurts... ALOT.</div>

[Teksun]

I'm getting fed up woth wasting all my money on arrows. I haven't been able to afford to buy a single Master spell yet. They have all come from guild or drops (and only one has dropped for me)<div></div>

[kartikeya]

<P>Thanks for the math, Rabbit--that's definitely not my strongpoint. x.o</P> <P>The past two nights, I've done raids. Thursday night, I did a very casual sort of run through with the first three drakota required to rez Vox in Fire and Ice. We RP'd a lot, so I had plenty of downtime to summon arrows and such in the midst of it.</P> <P>Well, Friday night, I had a Deathtoll raid. I logged on about ten or eleven in the morning, and I did NOTHING but summon arrows. There was a period of maybe an hour or so when I was away from the keyboard, and so unable to summon, but for the most part my /entire/ day from ten or eleven in the morning to five-thirty at night was spent summoning, while I surfed the net or watched movies or whatever.</P> <P>Guess what happened during that Deathtoll raid? Yeah. I ran out of summoned arrows and even two stacks of purchased tier appropriate arrows, and ended up using tin while waiting for my summon timer to refresh (My DPS, obviously, fell through the floor). I could go on a raid tonight in Lyceum, but that would mean dumping a plat or two solely on arrows, nevermind poisons. I could look for a group, but that too would cost about a plat in arrows. I could go solo with my tin arrows, spending a decent amount of time more with every mob, but then I would still be eating up my summoned arrows faster than I could summon them, which doesn't solve my problem.</P> <P>So, before my next raid or group or considerable solo session, I have to sit online and spend hours and hours and hours summoning arrows. In the meantime, any other class in the game can go adventure whenever they like, raid whenever they like, solo whenever they like, and they don't have to empty their bank to do so. </P> <P>Multiple solutions, many of them quite simple, have been proposed. It boils down to one of two things--either make our summon arrows ability able to keep up with our arrow consumption (and I mean KEEP UP, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that we should have to pay at all for our primary form of damage when damage is all we do, especially pay out the nose), or lower our arrow consumption so that our summon arrows ability is adequate for the amount of arrows used. Wizards are not charged per spell, Summoners do not see their money subtracted from when they summon pets, and assassins do not start having halucinations of ch-ching, ch-ching noises every time they swing their weapons. Having to pay for poisons just to keep up with classes that don't use them is ridiculous enough (but that's a general scout woe, not just ours, and not the focus of this thread) but having to pay plat on top of that is insane.</P> <P>I know the devs really don't like the idea of Endless Quiver, but I have to ask why. Every melee class already has the equivilent, and mages only have to spend seconds, not hours, to replenish their power supply.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>kartikeya wrote:<div></div> <p>Thanks for the math, Rabbit--that's definitely not my strongpoint. x.o</p> <p>The past two nights, I've done raids. Thursday night, I did a very casual sort of run through with the first three drakota required to rez Vox in Fire and Ice. We RP'd a lot, so I had plenty of downtime to summon arrows and such in the midst of it.</p> <p>Well, Friday night, I had a Deathtoll raid. I logged on about ten or eleven in the morning, and I did NOTHING but summon arrows. There was a period of maybe an hour or so when I was away from the keyboard, and so unable to summon, but for the most part my /entire/ day from ten or eleven in the morning to five-thirty at night was spent summoning, while I surfed the net or watched movies or whatever.</p> <p>Guess what happened during that Deathtoll raid? Yeah. I ran out of summoned arrows and even two stacks of purchased tier appropriate arrows, and ended up using tin while waiting for my summon timer to refresh (My DPS, obviously, fell through the floor). I could go on a raid tonight in Lyceum, but that would mean dumping a plat or two solely on arrows, nevermind poisons. I could look for a group, but that too would cost about a plat in arrows. I could go solo with my tin arrows, spending a decent amount of time more with every mob, but then I would still be eating up my summoned arrows faster than I could summon them, which doesn't solve my problem.</p> <p>So, before my next raid or group or considerable solo session, I have to sit online and spend hours and hours and hours summoning arrows. In the meantime, any other class in the game can go adventure whenever they like, raid whenever they like, solo whenever they like, and they don't have to empty their bank to do so. </p> <p>Multiple solutions, many of them quite simple, have been proposed. It boils down to one of two things--either make our summon arrows ability able to keep up with our arrow consumption (and I mean KEEP UP, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that we should have to pay at all for our primary form of damage when damage is all we do, especially pay out the nose), or lower our arrow consumption so that our summon arrows ability is adequate for the amount of arrows used. Wizards are not charged per spell, Summoners do not see their money subtracted from when they summon pets, and assassins do not start having halucinations of ch-ching, ch-ching noises every time they swing their weapons. Having to pay for poisons just to keep up with classes that don't use them is ridiculous enough (but that's a general scout woe, not just ours, and not the focus of this thread) but having to pay plat on top of that is insane.</p> <p><b>I know the devs really don't like the idea of Endless Quiver, but I have to ask why. Every melee class already has the equivilent, and mages only have to spend seconds, not hours, to replenish their power supply.</b></p><hr></blockquote>I dont mean to bash you, or your idea's by any means.. I just put down EQ everytime I hear it because I try and think im in sony's shoes as im giving suggestions.. If I am sony, I have to keep woodworkers happy by allowing woodworkers to sell arrows/knives etc, I have to keep rangers happy by rangers not requiring a woodworker to survive.. Endless quiver hurts woodworkers but helps rangers... What do you do in this situation?</div>

[Eternalbeej]

<DIV>I haven't played my ranger in ages but I remember the pain of buying arrows. I came up with a few ideas that might fix the problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. When the corpse of whatever we've been pincushioning is looted we get back a % of the arrows we stuck in him (yes I've been playing Oblivion :smileyvery-happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Add an ability to bounty where when the mob dies, we get that miniscule amount of copper, AND we get some arrows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Scrap bounty entirely and have it an ability that takes away the arrow cost for CA's or just reduces our use of arrows entirely (so something to make the ability useful)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. As we gain levels have a passive ability in place where it takes more shots to actually use up an arrow. At level 20 maybe it takes 3 shots to use 2 arrows and at 70 maybe it takes 4 to use 1 (unrealistic I know, but this is a game with fireballs and dragons). I could be like a baby endless quiver.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feel free to comment or flame :smileywink:</DIV>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I dont mean to bash you, or your idea's by any means.. I just put down EQ everytime I hear it because I try and think im in sony's shoes as im giving suggestions.. If I am sony, I have to keep woodworkers happy by allowing woodworkers to sell arrows/knives etc, I have to keep rangers happy by rangers not requiring a woodworker to survive.. Endless quiver hurts woodworkers but helps rangers... What do you do in this situation?<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Here's the thing: arrows are USELESS right now for woodworkers. Why? Because vendor arrows are cheaper, and woodworkers can't really offer a product that makes paying the extra price worth it. I'd be interested to know how many woodworkers even bother to stock arrows over totems. Honestly, while I'd say most tradeskill classes are hurting right now, woodworkers are right down at the bottom of the pile (along with the poor, poor weaponsmiths). How to keep woodworkers happy? They aren't happy right now at all.</P> <P>I hate to drag back to Endless Quiver, because I think there are more solutions than that (though making rangers pay for their primary means of damage, when they offer NOTHING but damage, is again, very, very unbalanced, whether you pay 1cp or five plat), but when EQ was introduced in Shadows of Luclin, very specialize arrow types were introduced as well (I THINK these were elemental damage arrows, it's been a while). These arrows were pricey to create, and were sold at very high costs, but since you only needed one of them once you had earned EQ, it was worth the price and added a little extra to what you could do, while allowing you to specialize in damage types base on what mobs you were fighting. </P> <P>On the fly, my solution toward fixing the arrow insanity making Woodworkers unhappy would be somewhere along these lines: let Woodworkers continue to make what they can make now (and possibly bump up the return/and/or lower the fuel costs so they can compete with vendor prices) but also let them make /specialized/ arrows that actually do mean something in gameplay. Let them make rare arrows again. Let them make arrows with specialized damage types (elemental, divine, magic, etc.). Let them make arrows that have some sort of effect to them (debuff, snare, whatever). And then limit what type of arrows actually works with Endless Quiver/summon arrows/CA usage, blah blah whatever, so that it adds useful flavor, but doesn't take a massive flying leap into the realm of overpowered. I don't mind spending coin, even a lot of coin, on extra utility/damage...my beef comes in when I have to spend a ton of coin just to do what I'm supposed to be able to do in the first place.</P> <P>Another option would be to let woodworkers create some sort of specialized arrow summoning kits, akin to how the Deathtoll bows work now (minus the T8 arrows, of course). But that seems something of a more clunky patch job over two problems to me, unless it were implemented very carefully.</P> <P>Bottom line, ranger and woodworker problems are actually linked: we require so many arrows that we can't afford to buy from the NPC vendor, let alone a player, and they can't make a product that either offers more than the vendor product to make up for the price, OR is cheaper to make that they can price it lower than the vendors. </P>

[Lev]

Arrows are pretty much borked for woodworkers, and there are several steps that need to be taken for them to work at all, and I figure this will be painful as hell. First off what is that decides the minimal price of crafted items in eq2 today? Fuel costs. So to effectively lower the price on arrows, there has to be more arrows per craft, and/or lower fuel costs for arrows (give arrows a special fuel ingriedent f. ex). Second off there is slot usage, if the price on arrows is lowered the 99 stack will be worth less, and therefore to make gold on arrows a woodworker will have to sacrifice more inventory and broker slots, which again would hurt them. Therefore the max stack of arrows (ammo) would have to be increased as well. This would again help to counter our inventory problems and plat spending issue, however we still use 2000-8000 arrows a day (depending on what you spend your gametime on). So the cost of arrows would need to be lowered considerable for it to still be effective. And that still doesn't justify the balance issues with other classes not having to spend the same ammount on ammo. I am having big problems seeing a solution at all. If arrows was worth dirt [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], no woodworkers would bother making them anyways, and we would end up buying from vendor anyways. So something needs to be thought up here, and I have no idea what would really fix this for both woodworkers and rangers, However something needs to be done. Cause atm it isn't working for either, and IMO this is worse for the rangers than the woodworkers

[Nulad]

Making arrows is one of the dullest and most tedious things I've ever done as a woodworker, 25 arrows for a pristine combine, at however long that takes, filling a reasonable sized quiver is repetitive boredom, woe is you if it's a bigass quiver <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Noaani]

<P>I may have missed the mark here, as my ranger is still in the 20s, but to me the simplest solution to this would be...</P> <P>1, make all ranged ammo stack to 500 instead of 99</P> <P>2, make crafted arrows return 100 per combine instead of 25, and reduce the price of vendor bought arrows by half</P> <P>3, make all reclaimed arrows summon 4 times more arrows than it does now (240 for level 62 master).</P> <P>then you are bascially getting 4 times the amount of arrows as you are now from either crafting or reclaimed arrows, woodworkers will be favored over vendor bought arrows, which they may or may not like, and you can carry enough arrows on you to last a day or two at least.</P> <P>As i said, my ranger is still very low, and I doubt I would ever raid with him. but even at level 20 i had noticed that i was spending more on arrows, poisons and repairs combined than I was actually making adventuring, and of the 16 or so toons i have taken to the mid to late 40s, he is the only one that has been a loss in terms of coin.</P>

[Lev]

Seeing as this thread has dragged me in so much I happend to mention it to one of my friends ingame. And it was suggested that I should /feedback this every day and that I should get as many other to do so as well.Fact is Devs don't respond to forum posts very often and we don't even know if they have read this thread. Therefore I am asking all you to /feedback this every day. Don't make it too demanding or rude, but every day mention how bad this really is. And frankly I don't care if you have a master and the AAs to counter this, or a DT bow. Fact is it is a problem and not everyone have the luxury of this. Therefore I am on my knees beggin you, I want to see this fixed in one way or another.. Maybe even something temporary until they think up a proper solution. So please if you have some minutes spare everyday spend them on writing a small feedback.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div>ANo one here is saying that soloers and groupers dont have a arrow problem</div><hr></blockquote>Actually there was someone earlier in the thread (not you) saying exactly that and Kart and I were arguing that point <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Nevermind....:smileyvery-happy:</BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Gareorn on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:31 PM</span>

[Deaudlus]

Arrows consumption was the reason that I decided to not roll a ranger when I started. I remeber in FFXI rangers spent a ton on arrows but they were unmatched in DPS.  I wouldnt have a problem with that.  But to spend the amount of cash you guys do to basicly play second fiddle in terms of DPS is a crock.  I'm not even a ranger and I support there being some kind of fix.<div></div>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giland wrote:<BR>After endless quiver was added to EQL, it was stated several months later what a huge mistake that was. Once a consumable is no longer consumable, every instance of creating specials for it must balance around the fact that some could keep that special forever.<BR> Imagine it with food for example. There is a quest drink that grants 40% haste. If a player got the benefit from, but never actually used that drink, they get a significant advantage over others.<BR>What happened in EQL with endless quiver? Everyone got 1 of each type of special arrow and never had to get any other arrows again.<BR><BR>I believe that arrow consumption is a problem too. I do not however want something like endless quiver. I would rather keep the door open for special consumables in future expansions.<BR>As others have stated, I think the best thing would be for CAs not to use arrows, but check to verify an arrow is available in the quiver. That would keep people from being OOA but still able to use CAs and cut down consumption of arrows<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I touched on this real briefly in my post, but I'll reiterate:</P> <P>There is no way I'd want an Endless Quiver where we could use special arrows for infinity. That would be like an uber poison that never ran out. If such a thing were introduced, and special arrows existed, then I would fully expect them not to work together, as it would be incredibly unbalanced.</P> <P><EM>HOWEVER</EM></P> <P>No other class in the game has to pay, and pay massive amounts at that, in order to perform their primary role. Assassins do not pay per swing of their weapon (apart from poisons, but they're still doing damage), monks do not pay to swing their fists, guardians do not pay every time a mob hits them, wizards do not pay per spell, and summoners do not pay per pet. </P> <P>If an assassin doesn't buy poisons, their DPS goes down, but they aren't prevented from using the vast majority of their CA's by it. Other classes use arrows, but at most it's something like three CA's. We bust in to do melee only when our ranged CA's are down, and if we can't use our ranged CA's at all, our primary role, that of damage, falls through the floor and keeps on falling.</P> <P>I wouldn't mind grouping more, especially to start working on my EoF aa's. But two or three raids a week kills me already, I can't imagine the costs it takes for rangers that raid and group constantly. </P> <P>Step away from Endless Quiver for a moment. Heck, all SOE would have to do is bump up our summon spell to what the DT bows currently put out, or possibly a bit more (and maybe bump them up too, to make the inevitable T8 not render Ichorstrand completely useless). Maybe make stacks of arrows larger, to help with inventory problems. Then you've got something that is LIKE Endless Quiver, in that we don't have to worry about running out of arrows so long as we pay attention, but they can still add in specialized arrows and the like down the line without worrying about giving us all free uber passes (as obviously, our summon ability only summons tier appropriate arrows).</P> <P>On a nearly irrelevant sidepoint--someone needs to do something with the rip line in T7. It doesn't really summon enough to matter much, but it would be nice not to have stacks of grey con arrows piling up.</P>

[Gary]

Its a simple fix too. They just need to significantly lower the price on the vendors.  It could probably be down without even patching any code out. 

[Teksun]

There are STILL many solutions without throwing in endless quiver:CA's use no arrows (quick fix and it would help a LOT)WW able to make 999 arrow bundles - single combine, reasonable price, fits in one slotAD1 summons 99 arrows AD3 two stacks Master summons three.More bows, more common that summon arrows: ALL TIERS<div></div>

[Nezumigami]

Hi all, just your friendly neighborhood troll swashie (yes I know we are teh handsomest.. no need to crowd) saying I feel for ya guys <span>:smileysad:</span>I agree with CA's not using arrows and perhaps something else.Hmm I dunno have the options to tuen AA into Arrow Expierence, so you can get arrows instead of exp?Ok that's a bit silly...In any case Teksu, might I suggest you change your sig so litle dollar signs or plat pieces fly away (with lillte halos and wings) as you shoot off arrows.Good luck guys <div></div>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nezumigami wrote:<BR><BR>In any case Teksu, might I suggest you change your sig so litle dollar signs or plat pieces fly away (with lillte halos and wings) as you shoot off arrows.<BR>Good luck guys <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>*giggles* Hey,that's a good idea. Too bad I don't think sound would go over well here, or you could add little 'ch-ching' noises as well, Tek.

[Nulad]

Everytime I win money on the Goblin game I think somebody is emptying my quiver over my head.<div></div>

[Loki_d20]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>kartikeya wrote:<div></div> <p><b>I know the devs really don't like the idea of Endless Quiver, but I have to ask why. Every melee class already has the equivilent, and mages only have to spend seconds, not hours, to replenish their power supply.</b></p><hr></blockquote>I dont mean to bash you, or your idea's by any means.. I just put down EQ everytime I hear it because I try and think im in sony's shoes as im giving suggestions.. If I am sony, I have to keep woodworkers happy by allowing woodworkers to sell arrows/knives etc, I have to keep rangers happy by rangers not requiring a woodworker to survive.. Endless quiver hurts woodworkers but helps rangers... What do you do in this situation?</div><hr></blockquote>First of all, very good thread going here from an outsider perspective.  You guys have done an excellent job of presenting exactly the right amount of information needed to inform the developers and other players on the issues of which you suffer.Now, the issue is the woodworkers and their need for supplying crafts to others out there.  IMHO, the issue of carpenter vs woodworker spans from the lack of overall available market for their items.  The best solution would be to combine the two artisan classes, also IMHO.  Otherwise, the obvious solution would be the need to implement new recipes that would have a similar level of need in comparison (or greater) to arrows.  Perhaps in the form of alchemical ammo, where the cost was higher, the production rate per less, but the broker price per reflective of this as well and would not count as appropriate ammo for the endless quiver.  These could be specific damage type arrows, enhanced range arrows, and so on.I honestly believe that a restructuring of the craft classes would be beneficial overall as well as help to fight issues with finding certain crafters over others and encourage even more competition among various crafting classes.  If not overall, than at least in respect to carpenters and woodworkers.</div><p></p>I would say that the option of bumping up production amounts for crafters would be a better solution overall, though, as it would affect rangers at all levels (not just those who get an EQ) and it wouldn't take away from the ability to provide items in regards to woodworkers.  And, the argument for such a thing in opposition to woodworkers who would say that they would make less now that they sell more for the same price is that it is possible that they could have more people buying from them due to the now reasonably available amount of arrows.  In addition, the alchemical versions could always be added in at t3+ recipes with higher costs to offset the loss of money from normal arrows.<p>Message Edited by Loki_d20 on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:14 PM</span>

[Gerdos]

<P>If SOE were to change the mechanics, there's really only 2 viable options.</P> <P>(1) Improve the number of arrows supplied from our arrow summoning CAs.</P> <P>eg.  Adept1 = 60,  Adept3 = 75,  Master1 = 99  @ 10mins.</P> <P>At M1, this would be a 66.66% improvement to the current rate.   More then enough to cater to all rangers but the core raiders.   Then you'd have the option to go down the AA tree for the time improvement.   Putting 5 points into it, would then be equivalent to the DT bows.   Which is equivalent to an endless quiver.</P> <P>OR</P> <P>(2) Increase the quantity produced for Woodworkers from 25 to 99.   Keep the cost to just below the current vendor prices.   (eg. 4-5g to vendors +6g).</P> <P> </P> <P>Keep the CA's as they are, requiring arrows .. and keep the bow's available in game limited to summoning arrows to just the 2x DT bows and maybe add 1 (or 2) more in EoF or the adventure packs brought in during EoF.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Hisvet]

<DIV>That wouldn't solve anything for me wtih adding 30 arrows every 10 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty much no raider will take the arrow summoning ability we cannot afford the drop to dps and we need the arrows.  Arrow summoning ability gives us no special arrows at all just what we need to even use our CAs.  Our dps is heavily AA, gear, buff dependent.  We can't control much outside of the AA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I work a normal job  I'm not spending my mornings crafting or selling or harvesting or farming, I'm working.  After that I'm raiding, questing and doing instances.   Instances take as much in arrows as raiding, maybe more.   I don't have the M1 book.  I cannot afford to buy the M1 book there are very few out there and there are a ton of rangers looking for it.  If it drops, go me, it never has in any group I've been in in the 10 months I've wanted it to.  Just like the bows.  An item that drops once per 4-6 months is hardly going to be able to sustain the raiding ranger population only a small percentage of rangers have it.  If you enjoy waiting a year for a piece of equipment that makes you viable to the raid group carrying you a long then kudos to you.  I go on to the other class forums and read their discussion of buffs and how they think its a waste to apply them to rangers etc.  Its not fun.  I'll get my 100 AAs I'll get some adornments long before I get the bows I need and I'll have arrow problems keeping me poor along the way.  You cannot get the bows if you do not raid, to maximize your chance you're going on all the raids you can not just for the chance at the bows but for the dkp to afford them when they do drop.  If you're raiding you're not making arrows you can use to raid you're also not making much money.  So you pay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Woodworkers do NOT make their money from arrows.  So all this discussion of saving the poor woodworkers is just not doing it for me.  Combine with Carpenters, great idea, give them more recipes to do, fine idea making them just slightly cheaper then vendor not a good idea.  Woodworkers think arrows are too tedious to make.   With only a small price difference that won't change.  People won't buy, woodworkers won't craft them.  Time is money too, woodworkers have in game lives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they got specialty arrows that were T8 or did special affects sure.  If they were half the price of the vendor and they weren't tedious to make then we'd buy.  Doing a combine 40 times for one person's order even at 100/stack is still darned tedious.  They can make more money with totems and less work.  And I need thousands of arrows a week.</DIV>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hisvet wrote:<div>That wouldn't solve anything for me wtih adding 30 arrows every 10 minutes.</div> <div> </div> <div>Pretty much no raider will take the arrow summoning ability we cannot afford the drop to dps and we need the arrows.  Arrow summoning ability gives us no special arrows at all just what we need to even use our CAs.  Our dps is heavily AA, gear, buff dependent.  We can't control much outside of the AA.</div> <div> </div> <div>I work a normal job  I'm not spending my mornings crafting or selling or harvesting or farming, I'm working.  After that I'm raiding, questing and doing instances.   Instances take as much in arrows as raiding, maybe more.   I don't have the M1 book.  I cannot afford to buy the M1 book there are very few out there and there are a ton of rangers looking for it.  If it drops, go me, it never has in any group I've been in in the 10 months I've wanted it to.  Just like the bows.  An item that drops once per 4-6 months is hardly going to be able to sustain the raiding ranger population only a small percentage of rangers have it.  If you enjoy waiting a year for a piece of equipment that makes you viable to the raid group carrying you a long then kudos to you.  I go on to the other class forums and read their discussion of buffs and how they think its a waste to apply them to rangers etc.  Its not fun.  I'll get my 100 AAs I'll get some adornments long before I get the bows I need and I'll have arrow problems keeping me poor along the way.  You cannot get the bows if you do not raid, to maximize your chance you're going on all the raids you can not just for the chance at the bows but for the dkp to afford them when they do drop.  If you're raiding you're not making arrows you can use to raid you're also not making much money.  So you pay.</div> <div> </div> <div><b>Woodworkers do NOT make their money from arrows.  So all this discussion of saving the poor woodworkers is just not doing it for me.  Combine with Carpenters, great idea, give them more recipes to do, fine idea making them just slightly cheaper then vendor not a good idea.  Woodworkers think arrows are too tedious to make.   With only a small price difference that won't change.  People won't buy, woodworkers won't craft them.  Time is money too, woodworkers have in game lives.</b></div> <div><b> </b></div> <div>If they got specialty arrows that were T8 or did special affects sure.  If they were half the price of the vendor and they weren't tedious to make then we'd buy.  Doing a combine 40 times for one person's order even at 100/stack is still darned tedious.  They can make more money with totems and less work.  And I need thousands of arrows a week.</div><hr></blockquote>Just have to comment here, woodworkers make all the ammo in the game, throwing stars, arrows, throwing axe's,  throwing knives, darts, as well as totems, and ranged weapons and small shields.. Ammo is around 1/2 of the woodworkers recipie list, we dont make money off of ammo simply because the same can be baught for cheaper and quicker.. Personally, I refuse to take orders from ANYONE asking for ammo for any reason. It takes too long, with too little reward..What I find funny, the ichorstrand effectively gives us 4times as much arrows for a greater effect than our master 1 summon.</div>

[Arleonenis]

Well i have other idea on that issue (for you information im 70 woodworker too and never craft ammo... pointless).The idea is to change few thing in our oh not so great survival line of EoF AAs. First this sprint boost... who sane would use it? if you want run faster just enhance patfinding, its sufficent and dont eat power... instead of this put skill that add +5 summoned arrows per level... its than 25 arrows when maxed, with increased reuse timer it still isnt that great as ammo summoning bow but imho sufficent...The last ability... be friend with animal... few likes it but imho its uselles, find me animals in dungeons, raid zones our instances? and that 90% of our hunting in rwality or even more... instead change it to hmmm Master Ranger or something like that that will change summoned arrows into legendary arrows... than you just need to lower aa point requirements for last "special" abilities on other lines so we can move enough points into this line.Still owners of arrow summoning bow would have insane advantage: more arrow summoned, summoned arrows are t8 legendary compared to t7 AND they dont need to spend AAs there... This would vastly improved mostly grouping soloing rangers, in groups my dps is already high enough becouse not so many great tanks, and this arrows would help a lotAnd to what do to woodworker? batch 99 anything lower is laughable, and arrows gives diffrent effect like flame arrows, toxic arrows, crushing/sashing arrows as we have already (good for mobs with piercing immunity) and add them to like +10 to hit chance when using them this would create market that dont exist atm if creating cost would be half the vendor arrows cost so we can earn some cash on it (it wouldnt be much though)<div></div>

[LoreLady]

Throwing in my opinion here, id like a fix that doesnt involve aa's - that givesme something to sell, and something that I can give say a guardian to use for an extra boost of some sort.

[Mion da Peon]

<DIV>Ok, you've guys have convienced me. here's my 2 cp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>99 stack - one combine woodworker recipes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AND</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>25 % arrows reclaimed from a mob when it dies</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have reasons for choosing just these two solutions but am to lazy to type about them. Good luck getting this changed.</DIV>

[nirav21]

<P>How about a 2 min buff in which you get infinite arrows to use your Range CA with recast timer of 5 mins?</P> <P>duration and recast timers can be adjusted as desired...</P>

[Hisvet]

<P>25% back from a mob assumes all the arrows hit.</P> <P>We PAY TO MISS as well as do damage.  Not up for that idea.  I think what we have come up with is fine, and NOT AA dependent and NOT cruel to Woodworkers and does NOT mean an endless quiver and does NOT invalidate Ichorstrand/Baazkul.</P> <P>Without using AAs 1/2 the timers on the normal summon arrow line.  Double the product per tier.  This quadruples output. And take away arrow consumption from CAs.</P> <P>Ichorstrand and Baazkul are still sought and valuable for the dps increase of T8 ammo</P> <P>To those that don't need the arrows they don't hit the button every 5 min. People still have to summon if they want them.</P> <P>Woodworkers get specialty ammo lines with attacks like elemental procs, crit chance, haste or doubleshot applies to ALL ammo lines so everyone can use and buy them.  Make it less tedious and have them make ammo in batches of 100 so they are worthwhile to make.  Can compete with summoned because of unique use, has a wider base of customers, nothing vendor equivalent.  DPS parsing hungry rangers will pay for the edge, specialty arrows might be tactical for some mobs, etc.</P> <P>Since ammo type on our CAs do not matter now there is no reason for using T[n] summoned arrows for it.  As long as you have arrows in your quiver it should see [ammo=1] and fire.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Jeris Nefz]

<DIV>IMO, I think there should be more arrow summoning bows... they all don't have to have a high dr on them.  You can make them tier appropriate.  It's lame that you have to wait until you get to tier 7 and get lucky for a rare drop in one of the more difficult zones in the game.  I think there should be treasured bows that summon ammo. I think they should summon treasured ammo, maybe a stack every 15min.  They don't have to be the same as the Ichorstrand or Bazkul.  (Personal beef here.... why do FABLED bows summon LEGENDARY ammo?  Why not Fabled?  Does it not make sense that if the bow is fabled and has a component to summon ammo, the ammo should not be fabled too?)  Legendary bows can summon - you guessed it - legendary ammo.  Anyway, I think ammo summoning bows should not be reserved for the lucky high end, top tier raiders.  Those bows, of course, should be the best, but not the only ones.  Something should be done about arrow cost/availability.  Once I got my t7 ammo bow I have not had to buy another arrow.  Why should that privledge be reserved for a few lucky rangers?  If I hadn't been on that raid, I would have spent literally 100s of plat until another ammo summoning bow dropped.  Seems a bit skewed to me.</DIV>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>Re: rangers saying they refuse to take Enhance: Reclaimed Arrows as it would sacrifice their DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you optimised your DPS AA lines/ranks, you would really only loose 2 AA points to Enchance: Caustic Poisons ... thats 4% (potential) bonus dmg for caustic poisons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very SMALL price to pay for some peace of mind and the ability to double your arrow production output.   A very feasible filler until you can get a DT bow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR> <DIV>Re: rangers saying they refuse to take Enhance: Reclaimed Arrows as it would sacrifice their DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you optimised your DPS AA lines/ranks, you would really only loose 2 AA points to Enchance: Caustic Poisons ... thats 4% (potential) bonus dmg for caustic poisons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very SMALL price to pay for some peace of mind and the ability to double your arrow production output.   A very feasible filler until you can get a DT bow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Perhaps, though 4% is still 4%, and given how often our poisons proc I'm not sure if that would be as negligible as it may seem.</P> <P>However...I wouldn't care if the enhanced reclaimed arrows was an actual Endless Quiver...AA's should not, should not, should NOT be a patch job for a class's imbalances. I've seen it said over and over that the idea behind EQ2 AA's was to allow customization, but not be required for a class to function as they were in many cases in EQ1. It might sound very hard headed of me, but frankly, 1 AA or 50, it's an imbalance. No other class has to pay in either time or money for every single potential hit they make. Unless we get something back for that time/money spent, then it's imbalanced, and needs to be addressed. 1 plat or 1 copper, it's imbalanced.</P> <P>Further, it's not like we have DPS to spare. We're scrambling to keep up with T2 classes that bring more utility and often more damage to a raid. Giving up 4% may seem a small thing, but when every bit counts, when you're already lagging behind, that 4% isn't so easy to sacrifice JUST so that you can spend less time/money on what you need just to use the vast majority of your CA's, when no other class in the game has such constrictions on their primary source of damage. If you don't have one of the arrow summoning bows, you are already desperately struggling to keep up, and having to shoot yourself in the foot just because you can't afford to drop four hours or two plat to use your bow is only going to put you further behind.<BR></P>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>Gerdos wrote</P> <P></P> <HR> <DIV>Re: rangers saying they refuse to take Enhance: Reclaimed Arrows as it would sacrifice their DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you optimised your DPS AA lines/ranks, you would really only loose 2 AA points to Enchance: Caustic Poisons ... thats 4% (potential) bonus dmg for caustic poisons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very SMALL price to pay for some peace of mind and the ability to double your arrow production output.   A very feasible filler until you can get a DT bow.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>I play a ranger on a pvp server.  Although my guild does some raiding, it isn't the emphasis.  So don't go preaching about fabled bows.  Different standards apply on a PvP server.  As for your utopian solution, everyone knows utopia doesn't exist.  Realities are what we are discussing.  Not pipedreams.  I joke all the time about how I kill the enemy by throwing my money at them.  And there are times, especially now that I've attained level 70, where I'm forced to not adventure due to a lack of arrows.  and FYI, I have numerous alts and tradeskillers, including a woodworker, and I make a ton more money selling totems.  Ammo is a money loser.  Currently, the only t7 ammo on the broker is twice the vendor cost.  Add to this the cost of poisons, and it is disheartening to say the least.  And you want me to give up DPS in order to 'ease' this burden.  I say make casters have to buy spell supplies, priests have to buy sacrificial materials,melee'rs have to have a chance of broken beyond reapairability of melee weapons/shields and then have to replace them.  these would be more 'realistic' changes IMO.</DIV>

[Gerdos]

<P>Congratulations Badaxe/Harry .. you win TOOL of the week.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Badaxe Ba]

What the bleeding hell is TOOL of the week?

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div>Re: rangers saying they refuse to take Enhance: Reclaimed Arrows as it would sacrifice their DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div>If you optimised your DPS AA lines/ranks, you would really only loose 2 AA points to Enchance: Caustic Poisons ... thats 4% (potential) bonus dmg for caustic poisons.</div> <div> </div> <div>Very SMALL price to pay for some peace of mind and the ability to double your arrow production output.   A very feasible filler until you can get a DT bow.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>We shouldn't be forced into anything to offset a stupidly high cost that only our class has to deal with, it's unfair and game breaking for a lot of Rangers, and quit with the personal attacks too, please.</div>

[Scarrlette]

Tool of the week = something that I don't wanna see again here or formal warnings for personal attacks will be issued. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[athitchcock]

Woodworker's being hurt by Rangers getting an endless quiver AA? No, not at all. The only player made arrows I have ever purchased were the slashing and crushing ones. And that was only after they took the slashing arrows of the NPC merchants. They just added 2 more classes to the arrow consumption group (pallies and SKs), now there are plenty of other classes that can purchase arrows from woodworkers. Besides the dmg type, there is no advantage to player made arrows. If I had endless quiver and it only gave me piercing arrows, I would still buy slashing / crushing arrows from woodworkers.My biggest problem with arrows is fairly simple. If I get a new sword, it has a dps rating and I'll pretty much do the same dps with it no matter what I do. If I get a new bow, it has a dps rating, but my dps will vary widely depending on what arrows I'm using. And if I run out of arrows, the dps rating is 0 and 75% of my CAs are useless.A fabled bow with tin arrows isn't very fabled.Gnaril<div></div>

[wullailhuit]

I vote let woodworkers make 100 arrows per combine and allow stacks of 500 arrows , but then I'm a woodworker who gave up making arrows as currently they cost more to make than I can sell them for and the time to make 2000 arrows is stupidly long.If it was 100 per combine I'd spend time woodworking and rangers would get cheap arrows.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>athitchcock wrote:<b>Woodworker's being hurt by Rangers getting an endless quiver AA</b>? No, not at all. The only player made arrows I have ever purchased were the slashing and crushing ones. And that was only after they took the slashing arrows of the NPC merchants. They just added 2 more classes to the arrow consumption group (pallies and SKs), now there are plenty of other classes that can purchase arrows from woodworkers. Besides the dmg type, there is no advantage to player made arrows. If I had endless quiver and it only gave me piercing arrows, I would still buy slashing / crushing arrows from woodworkers.My biggest problem with arrows is fairly simple. If I get a new sword, it has a dps rating and I'll pretty much do the same dps with it no matter what I do. If I get a new bow, it has a dps rating, but my dps will vary widely depending on what arrows I'm using. And if I run out of arrows, the dps rating is 0 and 75% of my CAs are useless.A fabled bow with tin arrows isn't very fabled.Gnaril<div></div><hr></blockquote>The problem is, woodworkers were changed and sony said.. I still see a high cost!!  http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a4&message.id=3633#M3633"<font color="#ffff00">While we can't control the prices of arrows that players make we can adjust the functionality of them.  Don't worry we won't be unbalancing the game by making player made ammo so unbalanced your considered "nerfed" unless your using rare t7 arrows.  Rare ammo/potions/poisons aren't ment to be used every time you go out adventuring they are supposed to be a perk that you might use on a raid boss or a hard encounter.  We deffinatly will be considering costs when making these items so we don't end up "nerfing" rangers"  - Beghn<font color="#ffffff">And as for the tool of the week, id love to see how many people stay around once they make every spell/art they use cost 7s.And quoting the bold, in the context that its in.. Its saying that arrows that woodworkers make should be a "perk" when fighting a hard boss etc.. But by there own words, its not a perk to spend that amount on arrows for a ranger, and its not a perk to buy playercrafted arrows as well.. Thus sony has missed the mark on both of these problems, and should be adressed and fixed immediatly..If I remember correctly, there was another post in stratics saying there was going to be something done.. </font></font></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>12-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:11 AM</span>

[jjlo69]

<P>ok im sry but i have never under stood the whole omg arrows cost money crap. even before i got my t8 ammo bow i farmed a couple hours a day made enough to buy my arrows and poisons to raid with. just my .02</P> <P> </P>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>jjlo69 wrote:<div></div> <p>ok im sry but i have never under stood the whole omg arrows cost money crap. even before i got my t8 ammo bow i farmed a couple hours a day made enough to buy my arrows and poisons to raid with. just my .02</p> <hr></blockquote>You just answered yourself, 'i farmed a couple hours a day made ehough to buy my arrows' No other class has to, no other class needs to, not everybody has a couple of hours spare a day to do nothing but farm to pay for arrows.</div>

[Harlequin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hisvet wrote:<BR> <P>25% back from a mob assumes all the arrows hit.</P> <P>We PAY TO MISS as well as do damage.  Not up for that idea.  I think what we have come up with is fine, and NOT AA dependent and NOT cruel to Woodworkers and does NOT mean an endless quiver and does NOT invalidate Ichorstrand/Baazkul.</P> <P>Without using AAs 1/2 the timers on the normal summon arrow line.  Double the product per tier.  This quadruples output. And take away arrow consumption from CAs.</P> <P>Ichorstrand and Baazkul are still sought and valuable for the dps increase of T8 ammo</P> <P>To those that don't need the arrows they don't hit the button every 5 min. People still have to summon if they want them.</P> <P>Woodworkers get specialty ammo lines with attacks like elemental procs, crit chance, haste or doubleshot applies to ALL ammo lines so everyone can use and buy them.  Make it less tedious and have them make ammo in batches of 100 so they are worthwhile to make.  Can compete with summoned because of unique use, has a wider base of customers, nothing vendor equivalent.  DPS parsing hungry rangers will pay for the edge, specialty arrows might be tactical for some mobs, etc.</P> <P>Since ammo type on our CAs do not matter now there is no reason for using T[n] summoned arrows for it.  As long as you have arrows in your quiver it should see [ammo=1] and fire.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I like these ideas across the board.  Heck, you could even have adornment recipes that would work on a stack of crafted arrows (any number in that single stack) to increase their desirability for certain situations.</P> <P>As an aside, I am a bit puzzled by this "tool of the week" comment and the follow-up by the moderator.  I'm hoping that the moderator was being sarcastic, because I really didn't read the "so don't go preaching about fabled bows" comment as a "personal attack" compared to some of the other stuff I see on here.<BR></P>

[Nulad]

Tool of the week is UK slang, it was a personal attack and not the first from the poster in question, one the others being directed at me. Everybody is entitled to their opinion but feeling the need to put it accross with derogatory remarks aimed at other posters just isn't on.<div></div>

[Lev]

I kinda did a small test.. Not really on purpouse, but it just happend so that we 2 grouped Labs today (up until Vyemm)(this is pretty big for us, as we are not a "hardcore" raiding guild). This took aprox. 5 hours. I found it pretty extreme how much arrows I ended up spending. On a normal Labs run I usually spend about 1 quiver give or take, and of course this went alot slower and you can count alot arrows per mob <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyways to add to our little numbersI spent about 5200-5500 arrows on this runit took about 5 hoursSo thats about 1k arrows an hour. which took me about 21 hours and 30 minutes to gather ( I only have an adept 3 and have yet to have enough APs to put into that branch). It took me about 4 times the time I spent using them to gather them. Thats 4/5 of gametime spent gathering, or a ratio of 1:4. This is acceptable IF, you craft on a regular basis or you own one of the DT bows. In all other scenarios you sacrifice something. I wont go into this too much again cause I have allready. But bottom line is, that this affects us more than some people realize, some may have alot of plat saved up and "farm" on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean this in effect does not hold you back compared to other classes. Cause it does.<div></div>

[Teksun]

Every three raids = one lost master upgrade <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[LoreLady]

Think of all those masters you would have if you dident spend money on arrows <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Malokar]

<DIV>Well, I've just spend near to 2 hours reading everyone's posts on here, and couldn't help but say something myself. I've been playing a ranger now for a while, and love the class. I'm not going to go into DPS, there's enough posts on that.</DIV> <DIV>I've got Adept I of Reclaimed Arrows, hopefully I'll get a Master 1 soon (laugh). I hit the button every refresh (I have a buzzer set to go off) and have learned that I can't solo at all without buying arrows. I spend a lot of time LFG, which gives me some time to gather arrows. When I finally find a group, I do as much dmg as I can at range. As soon as I get to about half a quiver, I start acting like a Swashie, and get in close. Thankfully, I'm never in groups that parse, or I don't think I'd have much of a job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I recently went on a small raid, big fun, first one for me. We took on a couple of Epics in and around Permafrost. I burned about 4k arrows.</DIV> <DIV>So I did a little research, and EQ2Traders has this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Recipe Book: woodworker essentials volume 63</DIV> <DIV>Primary Component: raw adamantine(1)<BR>•  Adamantine Cluster<BR>Build Component 1: raw rosewood(1)<BR>•  Rough Lumbered Rosewood<BR>Build Component 2: raw hanging roots(1)<BR>•  Hanging Root<BR>Fuel Component 1: Acrylia Sandpaper(4)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Boyer Alexander Kerr in Qeynos Harbor sells these nice little Acrylia Sandpapers at 34s56c. Each.</DIV> <DIV>Not taking into account how much the resources themselves might cost, that's 5s53c per arrow. (3456cx4/25=552.96c)</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Current prices are about 5s on NPC vendors.</DIV></DIV> <DIV>That's if you produce 25. It's 1s40c if you produce 99. (3456cx4/99=139.6c)</DIV> <DIV>A reasonable price would then be 3-4 silver. Assuming 3 silver per arrow (and 3g per stack), that's 60g for 20 stacks of 99, enough to fill your nice lil' Dragonhide Leather Quiver.</DIV> <DIV>That's also a whopping 20 combines for the woodworker, for a measley 32g profit.  </DIV> <DIV><BR>I personally like the idea of a player market. I'm a Carpenter, I make household goods, and some of them sell. I went carpenter because while I was a craftsman, I was making my own arrows, and fell asleep at the keyboard. (Mind you, this was with crafting at launch...kudos devs for fixing crafting!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with the others who don't want the Endless Quiver. Oh believe me, I'd love it. I dream of it nightly. But I also dream of a bow that stuns everything like the ghoulbane procs on undead, and lord knows the closest I'm getting is Rain Caller (please please don't nerf my Rain Caller...please?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A reasonable solution has been posted, have CAs not use arrows. I love it, but from a roleplay perspective, it's a little far-fetched. </DIV> <DIV>I do like the crafting idea though. Not hard to implement, but lets add a new recipie to the woodworker mix. Don't change the old, it'll only confuse things. 1 combine, 2-4 stacks of arrows. Make it a rare recipie, make it not so rare, I don't care. Maybe even make it use two to four times the fuel to produce two to four times the yield. By upping the fuel cost, but making it produce a full four stacks of 99 instead of a pathetic 25 arrows, woodworkers can keep up with the demand. The lowered player market price would butcher the NPC vendor market, giving woodworkers the edge.</DIV> <DIV>To run some quick numbers:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5 combines @ 4 fuel (about 2k arrows) = 7g cost to woodworker. With 200% mark-up, 14g to restock. 7g profit for about 7 minutes of work isn't too shabby.</DIV> <DIV>5 combines @ 16 fuel (about 2k arrows) = 30g cost to woodworker. 200% mark-up = 60g to restock. 30g profit for about 7 minutes of work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the idea of crafting unique types of arrows. Arrows that put out extra taunts, arrows that deal frost or magic damage, arrows that stun the opponent, or snare them. Make those types of arrows difficult to craft. Make those combines that yield the stacks of 25 that sell for rediculous prices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spending AA points on something our class NEEDS to function doesn't seem right IMO. I had 35 AA before I spent a single point on the tree. Necromancers don't NEED Life-burn, but it makes them hela-effective. Wizards don't NEED Mana-burn, but it's an amazing tool.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers need arrows. Period. Reduce the timer and increase the yield on Reclaimed Arrows? Yes. Please. It's a joke right now, those arrows last slightly longer than Arrow Rip. The Stream of Arrows line itself burns 20 arrows in 30 seconds. And I have to wait, what, 5 minutes to get 60 arrows when I have it Reclaimed Arrows (Master I)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Should arrows come in stacks of 99 or 999, I don't know. Should there be quivers that hold 50 stacks? Once again, no idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one hate the fact my class costs me gobs of money. I am still trying to learn the purpose of our class, because as of yet, it isn't to easily out-dps Assassins, Wizards and the like. But even with the cost and the frustration, I love being a ranger. Devs, please help us enjoy a game we love, and a class we are willing to fight for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arien Longshot</DIV> <DIV>62 Ranger/37 Carpenter</DIV> <DIV>Mistmoore Server</DIV>

[Jay]

<P>Bumping for the rangers who are still dealing with this. I know you'll never read this, Lockeye, but you're losing players because of problems like these. I'm one of them.   <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I feel so bad for you guys. I hated this when I played Kaeros - in the couple months before I basically shelved EQ2, the arrow shortage was one of my biggest frustrations with playing a ranger. I was raiding regularly and burning through arrows like no tomorrow. I didn't have the time to sit in game and click a button every 10 minutes, and I don't craft or farm for gold. </P> <P>I loved this class for over a year, but the ongoing frustrations that NO other class has to endure combined with the lackluster DPS (for most of us) and the utter lack of anything "special" about the class (in this game) just wore me down. </P>

[Deaudlus]

I have to agree with pretty much everything that has been said in this thread (And I dont even play a ranger).  If they are going to force you to spend that kinda cash to simply play your character your should be out parsing a assn by 1k easy.  Lord knows that if I suddenly had to spend 7s per attack on my swashie this game would get shelved in a heartbeat.  Woodworkers should be able to make specialty arrows by the 99 stack that are better then store bought, then they should drop the store bough price WAY down.  Arrows was the number one thing that stopped me from playing a ranger when I started EQ2 a few months ago.  I could live with the cost and the fact that rangers have no utility if they were absolute top top top top DPS but thats not the case.  It would be nice of SOE at least aknowleged that this is a problem and it is at least written on a sticky not stuck on someones monitor someplace.<div></div>

[Stormhawk]

The only way to truly balance us against the other classes is to make arrows cost nothing.  The only way to do that is to implement Endless Quiver.  Since that will never happen, rangers will never be balanced.  I'd love to see a Dev try to actually justify why we are forced to pay for every attack we make.  An alternative solution in the mean time would be to add T8 summon to the Wurm Destroyer.Crafting is not the answer.  They don't make money off arrows now nor do they need to in the future.  HOWEVER, add Double Attack totems, DPS mod totems or something of the like, that would be a good cost vs. reward crafted item.<div></div>

[xandez]

<div></div>yah, its sad that i can make nice DPS with my warden and still able to heal as a single healer in instances <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />and all that w/o paying 1c to do so. and with 90% treasured gear...  yah, not played my ranger too much lately because of that... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />sad, but i've finally became so tired of the constant arrow and poison hoarding, the warden ezymode really did that for me... sniffAnd we are fine in DPS department? Rofl, maybe, but we still require GOOD gear (espec bow with T8 arrows) and we still have to use LOADS of arrows and LOADS of poisons to get the fine DPS. That is what i dont understand... every caster has the ability to do their DPS as "ranged" like we. Why do we have to be the ONLY class to pay to do it decently (ok, maybe assassins also and other poison users, but... you get teh point <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)++Xan<div></div><p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>01-03-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[Veyor]

<P>I don't post much, as seen by my post count. But, I have played EQ for about 6 years now (EQ1/EQ2) as a Ranger. The arrow thing really needs to be addressed now tho. I don't raid much but I do group alot and I can't keep up with my arrow/poison demand. The arow situation can even be a band-aid fix as other things in this game have been (see the last mitigation fix). Lower the cast time or increase the amount of arrows gathered by our ability. This shouldn't be that hard to do until the Dev's can figure out something more concrete. The Ranger community isn't asking for alot here. Just throw us a frickin bone, please!</P> <P> </P> <P>Cregar Bledtree, 70 Ranger of Permafrost</P> <P>Seeker of the ALL Mighty BEER</P> <P> </P>

[Monstage]

I have been playing a ranger as my main for almost 2 years now and have mainly been a solo/small group player, however, I am now getting to 70 and would like to try some raids and instances a bit more. The arrow issue was never really a problem for me before, but now I am starting to get recurring nightmares of my ranger reaching down to grab an arrow from the quiver only to find there are none left.This whole arrow thing has been grumbling on for ever now. How many of us does it take to say something before the devs actually give a rat's [Removed for Content] and do something about the situation?It would be nice to actually see a red name on the forum or at least SOME confirmation that the situation is being looked at. We can only assume that the arrow mechanic is 'working as intended'.I mean, just look at how many fixes have been put forward in this thread alone! Surely ONE of those would be good enough to solve the problem? I wonder if anybody at SOE even bothers to play a ranger since they are so blind to the problems this causes.In my opinion having stacks of arrows is ridiculous. I mean, how could you possibly carry 2000+ arrows on your back? You would need a bloody horse and cart to lug all those around! So if anybody says "you need arrows in the game for realism" they are talking out of their [Removed for Content].Instead we should have endless quivers that give certain types of damage such as piercing, crushing, slashing. And before anybody says that this would hurt the woodworkers since quivers are tailor made I wouldnt worry. On my server (Nektulos) there are hardly any player made arrows on the broker and they are just too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] expensive anyway so I dont think they will be too bothered (I am a woodworker btw and I never make arrows cause they are just a waste of time and effort).The funny thing is, people are actually giving up playing rangers and some have even given up EQ2 entirely due to this issue. They just can't afford or can't be bothered with having to worry about not having enough of the thing that allows them to use their combat arts, which is a problem no other classes face. They see the developers lack of interest and think "well if SOE can't be bothered then neither can I, I'm off to play WoW" or something along those lines.One thing that might help is to keep reporting this whole issue as a bug. Do a quick bug report every day with somrthing like "please fix the ranger arrow consumption issue" and just keep doin git till they get the message. If everybody does this every time they log in then it might just ring some alarm bells. I just did mine and it makes me feel a little better.There are numerous things that could be done to solve this problem, and it IS a problem. It's about time we got some help from SOE after all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e they have flung at us.

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div>Having recently come back to the game it's a bit worrying to see that nothing has changed in all this time. How hard can it be to fix ?The problem for Rangers is simple, buying arrows costs way too much money to be practical and that's even if you ignore the "other classes don't have to spend money to DPS" debate. You simply can't run a Ranger using the "proper" arrows and have sufficient cash left to buy the other items in game e.g. horses, houses, armor, spells etc. OK, maybe 1 or 2 can,  but for 90% of Rangers this *is* a problem.The problem for Woodworkers is equally simple. There is no market for their arrows. Anyone using arrows to pull mobs can use cheap tin arrows. Those who actually need the good arrows can either buy them from a broker for much the same price, or has their own WW alt. The fact that making arrows takes so long means that it's pointless for WWs to even bother, it's just not a efficient use of their time.So, to solve the problem for Rangers, you need to make their arrows as free or cheap as possible, but this doesn't help the Woodworkers. So, a compromise is needed.How about:1. Treble the amount of gathered arrows from Ranger spell. It will help Rangers a lot, but won't totally solve the issue for them.2. Increase Woodworker combines to 25/50/75/100 when making arrows. A "pristine" combine gives 100 arrows. I think it's essential that the combine increases are made because it's so slow making arrows at the moment, even if there was a huge demand for them it would be impossible to fill. If the devs really want to stop the pain, increase them to 50/75/100/150, that would be ideal. 3. Increase arrow stack to 500 rather then 99.4. Ensure arrows from vendor are priced at 2x the average cost of a player made arrow. It's probably easist just to reduce the fuel requirement for arrows from 4 sandpaper to 1.The effect of this will be:1. To reduce the pain to Rangers (there will still be some, so don't worry we'll still be suffering like you intend).2. Woodworkers will not have to spend days making arrows that are used by just 1 player in a couple of hours. 3. Rangers can keep a large number of arrows in their quiver (not ideal from a "reality" perspective but endless quivers are not WW friendly)4. Players can still buy arrows from vendors if they like, but player made arrows would be cheaper and better.I personally can't see any downside to these changes, it just needs a bit of effort on SOEs part to implement them. Oh, and don't forget to update the various Writs that need arrows making. Generally they are after 75 arrows, so just change them to 3 x whatever the new pristine combine value is and problem solved.Edit to add: Making the arrows for just 1 player to use for just 1 day is enough to level my WW one whole level even without vitality. You going to tell me that's working as intended ? Actually I should shut up, they'll probably nerf arrow XP down to zero.<div></div><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>01-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>08:02 AM</span>

[Aegnar]

<P>Alright, here is my idea for a solution.... keep in mindi  have not read EVERY post in this thread, but i read a bunch of em.. If this has been suggested already, sorry! lol.  The solution is going to have to be multi-tiered, because i don't think there is a single quick-fix that will fix the three issues here: Arrow consumption being cost prohibitave, woodworkers not getting skrewed, and dps not being on par with other T1 classes.  Here we go.......</P> <P> </P> <P>1) Add Endless Quiver (I know, i know bear with me....)</P> <P>-Works only with one tier down from your highest available tier of arrows.  (Example: at 70, T8 arrows are available... at level 70 EQ would only work with T7 arrows, at 80 would only work with T8, at 20 would only work with T2, etc)</P> <P>-Requires one arrow of the type you want to use in your ammo slot (a-la-eq1)</P> <P>-End ability of one of the EoF lines</P> <P>2) Added woodworker arrows:</P> <P>a) Special arrows at level x9 of each tier (ie 29,39,49,59,69) that give a variety of effects.  This should include:</P> <P>- +Elemental dmg proc</P> <P>- stun (short duration) proc</P> <P>- stiffle (short duration) proc</P> <P>- interupt (less proc chance than stun/stiffle but interupts epics too) proc</P> <P>-+ranged crit chance</P> <P>These arrows should be expensive to craft.  I mean expensive.  I'm talking 5 wood rare, 5 metal rare, 100 fuel.  Making these arrows would allow woodworkers to turn maybe 2-5p profit per one they make.  Yes, that would mean most rangers would have to fork out a lot of rares to get their high end arrows to use with EQ... but they would not be expendable, and the truth is that most of us spend most of our time at the highest tier</P> <P>b) Simple arrows of the next tier at level 69 as well (ie making a T8 arrow at 69)  </P> <P>-These arrows should do more damage than the mastercrafted of the previous tier, even including proc damage</P> <P>-These arrows should be made with common components, and end up costing the crafter approximately [(tier level)/2] * 1 silver.  Ie T7 would cost about 3.5 silver to make.  I suggest stacks of 200 to make crafters not get carpal tunnel.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, so how does this solve the problem?</P> <P>The answer is that it forces rangers to make decisions.  If you are comfortable spending a lot of money to get the highest damage arrows, that is still available to you, at about the same price as you are paying now but allows woodworkers to make a decent living making them.  If you want to spend less money in the long run, you can invest in a few, or all, of the mastercrafted arrows of the tier down from you.  They are expensive to make, but if you gather the rares yourself, or save up, they will save you a lot of money in the long run.  On top of that, it allows the market to decide what the woodworker's time is worth to make such a complicated recipee.  The availablitiy of higher damage arrows that are expendable, or arrows with certain procs for vulnerabilities, arrows with status effects, etc gives the rangers a bit higher dps OR some added utility.  </P> <P>Would it be an effort to add in?  Of course it would.  Do i think it'll happen?  Not really.... though i do have some faith that SOE does WANT balance, i just do't think they have a good solution.  Keep in mind this also gives rangers a class defining mastery of the ranged arts.  Although other classes (most fighers, most scouts) use bows, and arrows to limited effect, they would not have access to the proccing arrows like rangers would.</P> <P>What do you guys think?</P>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>The other day a new-to-raiding guardian asked the raid group if anybody could spare some arrows, because he forgot to buy some......</P> <P>and not one ranger stepped forward.  He asked a second time, and in terms expressing his confusion.  "Surely one of you scouts has extra arrows you can give me," He asked.  Still no response.  Then he said, and I quote, "Well if I can't get arrows from somebody, I'm not gonna go.  I can't afford to be buying arrows all the time."  Yet he had just spent the plat to buy himself a new lvl 60 horse just recently.</P> <P>Only one word was heard then in the vent channel.  "NEWB........."</P> <P>Since then no more requests for arrows have been heard.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Badaxe Bart on <span class=date_text>01-05-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:40 AM</span>

[Tobann]

Now with over 100 posts on this thread and multiple other posts on older threads,I wonder if we arnt all just spinning our wheels.Does anyone think any of the Devs even look at these threads? Does anyone have any ideas on posting it in any other areas that might get more attention? All the Rangers Ive spoken to agree the arrow issue is a big one. Maybe not the biggest,but one we all feel  has a good liklyhood to be fixed with little spillover to other classes.With no notification the issue is even being heard,should we just move on to something else?Sorry Im just getting frustrated!Buaf 70 Ranger Befallen<div></div>

[Lev]

So there was a Dev Chat today, did anyone stop by and ask about the rangers arrow consumption?.. I would have myself, but as it happend it was in the middle of my raid <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I hope someone did<div></div>

[Chefren]

<div><blockquote><hr>wullailhuit wrote:I vote let woodworkers make 100 arrows per combine and allow stacks of 500 arrows , but then I'm a woodworker who gave up making arrows as currently they cost more to make than I can sell them for and the time to make 2000 arrows is stupidly long.If it was 100 per combine I'd spend time woodworking and rangers would get cheap arrows.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Also make crafter made arrows noticeably better than vendor-bought arrows to create more demand. Then you can drop the price of vendor-bought arrows a bit (20% maybe) and still have a market for the crafted ones. Plus it would increase ranger dps a bit to partially make up for all those melee-only proc spells in the game...</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:So there was a Dev Chat today, did anyone stop by and ask about the rangers arrow consumption?.. I would have myself, but as it happend it was in the middle of my raid <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I hope someone did<div></div><hr></blockquote>There was a dev chat?</div>

[TaleraRis]

<div><blockquote><hr>RabbitFly wrote:So there was a Dev Chat today, did anyone stop by and ask about the rangers arrow consumption?.. I would have myself, but as it happend it was in the middle of my raid <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I hope someone did<div></div><hr></blockquote>No, because I wasn't interested in subscribing to their ploy to download the Pirates client just to go to a dev chat involving EQ2.</div>

[Gnome mercy]

<P>How about this, i thought of a good idea, cause the devs in eq1 regretted adding in endless quiver, but make something like it, like say maybe a buff that say gives you a 50% to not actually use an arrow in your invetory every time you fire one, or maybe a summon arrow proc. Anything like that but i figured the buff would be more realistic in this game instead of shooting an arrow and ending up with like 10.</P> <P>Any thoughts?</P>

[BSbon]

<DIV>forgive me if i missed something in this thread but last night i thought of a way to fix the summoned arrow tier problem. i thought of it when my necro leveled and i had to resummon my pet cause he was 1 level lower now. why cant summoned arrows be like that. they are whatever level you are when you summon them. this not only fixes it for existing tiers but also fixes it for tiers not added yet.</DIV>

[kartikeya]

Bottom line, as someone already posted, is this: Other classes do not have to pay for every potential hit they make. Other classes have greater or equal DPS to a class that does have to pay for every potential hit.The only way to balance, really balance, is to take away the cost. Period. There's no reason we should have to pay. The only other way to balance is to make it so that rangers are superior, bar none, in DPS to every single class that doesn't have this cost associated with their CA's (and we all know that's never gonna fly).Something folks are forgetting when they bring up Endless Quiver is that EQ1 was not designed for ranged combat. The EQ1 ranger was almost completely a melee class, with some spells tossed in. In fact, prior to the release of the first expansion, the ranger was basically a WARRIOR/druid hybrid, not a rogue. We didn't get any significant ranged damage until quite late in the game, and only after dumping 100's of AA points into it, plus, there was no power cost for using arrows.We already have a system in place to prevent unlimited CA casting. It's called the power bar.

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kartikeya wrote:<BR>Bottom line, as someone already posted, is this: Other classes do not have to pay for every potential hit they make. Other classes have greater or equal DPS to a class that does have to pay for every potential hit.<BR><BR>The only way to balance, really balance, is to take away the cost. Period. There's no reason we should have to pay. The only other way to balance is to make it so that rangers are superior, bar none, in DPS to every single class that doesn't have this cost associated with their CA's (and we all know that's never gonna fly).<BR><BR>Something folks are forgetting when they bring up Endless Quiver is that EQ1 was not designed for ranged combat. The EQ1 ranger was almost completely a melee class, with some spells tossed in. In fact, prior to the release of the first expansion, the ranger was basically a WARRIOR/druid hybrid, not a rogue. We didn't get any significant ranged damage until quite late in the game, and only after dumping 100's of AA points into it, plus, there was no power cost for using arrows.<BR><BR>We already have a system in place to prevent unlimited CA casting. It's called the power bar.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well yes we understand this but the only ideas people came up with was endless quiver when if you go back to eq1 and read the posts they clearly regetted even having the idea of EQ. So there hasto be a fix not just hey lets make these arrows cheaper but maybe instead of carrying 3 million arrows on ya at a time so you can make a raid (and yes i am way over exaggerating that) you can make some room in your inventory by increasing some way of recovery

[Rothgar]

We hear you loud and clear on the arrow issue.  I've been playing a ranger myself since the beginning of EQ2 and raid about 4 times a week.  Arrow consumption is a problem that I experience almost every time I play.  Everyone has made some great points and I just wanted to let you know that we're listening.  As soon as I can come back with more news, this forum will be the first to know.<div></div>

[Keredh]

<P>Faith restored, at least for this ranger (who is more AFK than he would like at present...).</P> <P>Ker</P>

[LoreLady]

Wow a reply - so there is a god! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Well, all we wanted to hear is that its being looked into.

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:We hear you loud and clear on the arrow issue.  I've been playing a ranger myself since the beginning of EQ2 and raid about 4 times a week.  Arrow consumption is a problem that I experience almost every time I play.  Everyone has made some great points and I just wanted to let you know that we're listening.  As soon as I can come back with more news, this forum will be the first to know.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yayness!!!Thankyou Rothgar1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[PonderStibbons]

Cheers Rothgar,  lots of rangers are now hanging on your words, waiting to see what happens... <div></div>

[Lev]

Finally <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Rhotgar just made me a very happy ranger, oh yea I know wont be seeing any changes in a while, and I might not like what they come up with.. But all that matters little compared to the fact we know that you listen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Axor]

<P>WOOOOT A REPLY ON RANGER FORUM WOOOOT !</P> <P>=D thanks a lot!</P>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Thank you Rothgar.  The fact that you see and acknowledge our concerns means more than you can imagine.</font><div></div>

[Monstage]

Thanks Rothgar. Thats all we wanted, a little bit of info to let us know we weren't wasting our time here with posting and getting no response (well thats not ALL we wanted, we want the problem fixed too hehe).Please, please, please make it quick though. I am just starting raiding and dont want to spend all my money on arrows <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />CheersMonstage70 RangerTribal InstinctNektulous

[Terrak]

I've read a couple of the recommendations here that people just get their guild to raid DT and get the ichorstrand bow...  That's fine for some guilds but the arrow expense issue is hardly limited to rangers who do nothing but high end raids constantly.  Some of us are from small guilds and do pick up raids whenever we can, in addition to instance groups, etc...  We still have major expense issues and we realize that we're probably never going to get a bow from DT.  We still are expected to push as much damage as we can so taking the AA for reclaimed is a poor option at best and we're still paying through the nose when we need to buy ammo.Maybe the best answer is to fix a problem that hits woodworkers and make the ammo cheaper.  Possibly even make some Ranger only ammo with a much lower cost and Ranger only quivers with a much higher capacity.Regardless, the idea that we must take the AA is unacceptable and so is the situation where we're looking at spending huge amounts of money between poisons and arrows just to stay effective.<div></div>

[Trepan]

Idea:  Add a decimal place to arrows for Rangers and every shot decrement it .1.   They go through way more than 10 times the arrows any other class does, but the cost per shot would be far lower... and they could carry more arrows.Make abilities use 1 whole arrow.  Normal shots .1?<div></div>

[Andu]

I don't know if this has already been said, I read the first page and some other posts and din't see anything. I am a Woodworker and want to make arrows for you guys to use. Currently each combine creates 25 arrows, it takes ages to make a decent stack and the cost for you is prohibitive. Woodworkers have been arguing about this for as long as Rangers have. Why can we not make it so Woodworkers can make arrows in bulk and at a cost that was more reasonable to you (ie even cheaper than the current vendor bought arrows). Bring the cost down of the vendor arrows at the same time. Also, player made arrows should be doing more damage than store bought ones but the general consensus is that they don't. I don't know if that is correct or not but it should be looked into. Ranger DPS is so dependant on getting the very best bows and equipment, player made arrows could help bridge the gap between that level of gear and the more typical stuff from instances. Using your skills to reclaim more arrows is one thing but I think there is an opportunity here to fix a number of issues if it is being seriously looked at. <div></div>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2">As an example, we had a guild group go to SoS last night to help some folks catch up on Claymore quest line.  At level 70, spending a lot of time in SoS is akin to pulling one's own teeth one at a time with a pair of rusty pliers.  Therefore, we just blast throuth it as fast as possible.  I was already at what I consider 'low' on arrows, as I only had about one and a half t7 rare quivers' worth.  Even using Master I Makeshift Arrows every time it was up, by the time we quit, I had 4 stacks of arrows left.  There's no way I'll be able to get through the week without buying arrows now.How about something like "Fill Quiver"Fill QuiverSummons one quiver of arrows.</font><ul><li><font size="2">If quiver equipped in ammo slot.</font></li><ul><li><font size="2">If no quiver equipped in ammo slot, summons one stack of arrows into the ammo slot.</font></li></ul></ul><ul><li><font size="2">Will not summon arrows outside of quiver.</font></li></ul><font size="2">Now if they really wanted to get creative, how about having the quality of the CA, i.e. Adept I, Adept III, Master I, etc. effect the level of the arrow.  For instance, App I summon level 60 arrows for the t7 version, level 63 arrows for the App III, level 65 for the App IV, level 66 for the Adept I, level 67 for the Adept III, level 69 for the Master I, and level 70 (yes, t8 arrows) for the Master II.That, in my opinion, would add something to the game.  Put it on some arbitrary timer.  Since it wouldn't put any arrows into other bags, the timer becomes almost irrelevant.Minimal impact on woodworkers, but if they really wanted to 'fix' wookworkers, give them back useful arrows to craft.  Magic damage arrows, cold, divine, etc.Not a perfect solution, I know, but I'm sure my fellow rangers can help out with this if they like the idea.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 AM</span>

[Ethyarion]

While I do welcome a developer response I'm somewhat sceptical. After all it's been almost a year since something similar was posted with no action taken.I am fortunate enough to have an ammo summoning bow but the other raiding Ranger in my guild is not and the Amorphous Drake and Tarinax seem reluctant to drop a scond bow.Thanks for the response but after all this time I'd rather see action than words.<div></div>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR> <FONT size=2>As an example, we had a guild group go to SoS last night to help some folks catch up on Claymore quest line.  At level 70, spending a lot of time in SoS is akin to pulling one's own teeth one at a time with a pair of rusty pliers.  Therefore, we just blast throuth it as fast as possible.  I was already at what I consider 'low' on arrows, as I only had about one and a half t7 rare quivers' worth.  Even using Master I Makeshift Arrows every time it was up, by the time we quit, I had 4 stacks of arrows left.  There's no way I'll be able to get through the week without buying arrows now.<BR><BR>How about something like "Fill Quiver"<BR><BR>Fill Quiver<BR>Summons one quiver of arrows.<BR></FONT> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>If quiver equipped in ammo slot.</FONT></LI> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>If no quiver equipped in ammo slot, summons one stack of arrows into the ammo slot.</FONT></LI></UL></UL> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>Will not summon arrows outside of quiver.<BR></FONT></LI></UL><FONT size=2><BR><BR>Now if they really wanted to get creative, how about having the quality of the CA, i.e. Adept I, Adept III, Master I, etc. effect the level of the arrow.  For instance, App I summon level 60 arrows for the t7 version, level 63 arrows for the App III, level 65 for the App IV, level 66 for the Adept I, level 67 for the Adept III, level 69 for the Master I, and level 70 (yes, t8 arrows) for the Master II.<BR><BR>That, in my opinion, would add something to the game.  Put it on some arbitrary timer.  Since it wouldn't put any arrows into other bags, the timer becomes almost irrelevant.<BR><BR>Minimal impact on woodworkers, but if they really wanted to 'fix' wookworkers, give them back useful arrows to craft.  Magic damage arrows, cold, divine, etc.<BR><BR>Not a perfect solution, I know, but I'm sure my fellow rangers can help out with this if they like the idea.<BR></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Zholain on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I like this. The timer would make it black and white though. Either it's short enough that you never run out, or it's long enough that you *will* run out before you can resummon. In the end the main issue is that we're a class that is totaly dependant on a limited resource to do our DPS. Take away arrows from a Ranger and an Assassin and we all know who's DPS will drop off the deep end and who's will not drop quite so much. I think it's the fact that with Rangers it's really a black and white situation when it comes to arrows will make this a sticky trouble to fix. My personal feeling is that they should look at other ways to make woodworkers profitable (I am a woodworker myself) and just give us something like a buff that allows us to recover a % of arrows used if they don't want us to not have to buy arrows at all. A good % would be able to make it so that Rangers spend roughly the same as other classes (like Assassins) on arrows.

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Yeah, that indeed is the biggest problem.  There's no way to judge what the 'proper' amount of arrows is, simply because different players will consume arrows at varying rates...the same player even consumes arrows at varying rates.  If they eliminate the impact of the timer, then it will seem too much like Endless Quiver.  Give assassins a summon ability...I certainly won't cry nerf.  They should have had a summon ability all along.As the system currently works, I honestly don't see how they can make changes without someone crying foul.  I too am a woodworker, but frankly I will never craft another arrow until they change the crafting process for them, or at least make the ones we can craft somewhat useful..  It's simply not worth it.</font><div></div>

[Nulad]

Give us endless quivers and nice special arrows ala EQLive, fix woodworkers with something different, it's not like any of them (me included) actually ever spend much time crafting arrows anyway.<div></div>

[Kala Asuras]

Months and months ago I participated in a long discussion about arrows.  I still feel that the ideal situation would be if CAs could be made to not consume arrows but still proc all effects correctly.  Our consumption goes down to auto attack (yes more than other classes but a solution I could live with) and a huge plus is that it would make it possible for us to get the full benefit of higher quality crafted arrows if they are ever put in (another if).<div></div>

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR>I don't know if this has already been said, I read the first page and some other posts and din't see anything.<BR><BR>I am a Woodworker and want to make arrows for you guys to use. Currently each combine creates 25 arrows, it takes ages to make a decent stack and the cost for you is prohibitive. Woodworkers have been arguing about this for as long as Rangers have. Why can we not make it so Woodworkers can make arrows in bulk and at a cost that was more reasonable to you (ie even cheaper than the current vendor bought arrows). Bring the cost down of the vendor arrows at the same time.<BR><BR>Also, player made arrows should be doing more damage than store bought ones but the general consensus is that they don't. I don't know if that is correct or not but it should be looked into. Ranger DPS is so dependant on getting the very best bows and equipment, player made arrows could help bridge the gap between that level of gear and the more typical stuff from instances.<BR><BR>Using your skills to reclaim more arrows is one thing but I think there is an opportunity here to fix a number of issues if it is being seriously looked at.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>a majority of our attacks use arrows as a component. without arrows we do less damage than a templar. so in order to be even somewhat effective we REQUIRE components to do almost everything. so why should we have to pay for using our combat arts? do wizards have to pay for every nuke they cast? do swashys pay for every stab of their sword? do templars pay for every heal they land? you get my point by now. there should not be a component for 90% of what we do. it's unreasonable to expect that we have to pay for everything we do. if you want to do a little experiment, next time you play your templar count how many heals you cast and then charge yourself 1 gold for every heal. when you run out of money stop healing and only debuf.

[KBern]

Endless Quiver AA from eq1 seems to be a good resolution.

[Stormhawk]

While I appreciate the comments from Rothgar, this isn't the first time we've gotten a dev response on the arrow issue.  I fear we will get left out in the cold again if we let the issue slow at all again, like last time.  More importantly I fear they will implement a solution that doesn't solve the problem and will result in us being forced to purchase arrows on a market that is completely unpredictable.<div></div>

[Zendi_Perma]

<DIV>What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.</DIV>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zendi wrote:<BR> <DIV>What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmmmm Rothgar1: <SPAN class=title><STRONG>Date Registered</STRONG></SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-28-2006</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:24 AM</SPAN> <P>hmmmmm... maybe he's new and people should cut him some slack? :smileywink:</P>

[Kurizok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zendi wrote:<BR> <DIV>What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmmmm Rothgar1: <SPAN class=title><STRONG>Date Registered</STRONG></SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-28-2006</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:24 AM</SPAN> <P>hmmmmm... maybe he's new and people should cut him some slack? :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I dunno, atleast someone's replying to the issues at hand.  It's a darn shame that a response is what is valued these days. 

[Stormhawk]

<div><blockquote><hr>Starness wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zendi wrote: <div>What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Hmmmm Rothgar1: <span class="title"><strong>Date Registered</strong></span><span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">11-28-2006</font></span><span class="time_text">09:24 AM</span> <p>hmmmmm... maybe he's new and people should cut him some slack? :smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote>I have no doubt that he legitmately wants to fix the issue but when it comes down to it, it isn't his call.  Responses from devs are great but until you see someone like Scott respond it is basically still up in the air as to when or if it will be changed. </div>

[Zendi_Perma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Starness wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zendi wrote:<BR> <DIV>What is amazing to me is that there is a dev who plays a ranger 4 nights a week in raids and nothing else is getting fixed.... except for the stealth change to Surveillance which I still haven't seen a dev post on.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmmmm Rothgar1: <SPAN class=title><STRONG>Date Registered</STRONG></SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-28-2006</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:24 AM</SPAN> <P>hmmmmm... maybe he's new and people should cut him some slack? :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I wasn't slamming him so much as their system.   However, some things lately have restored my faith a bit and I will hope for the best.<BR><p>Message Edited by Zendi on <span class=date_text>01-09-2007</span> <span class=time_text>07:23 PM</span>

[Tames]

I understand the cost issues and sympathise. It is stated that other classes dont have to pay to increase their DPS, BUT Scout poison users certainly do and have to keep a fair variety of them on hand for the various situations they find themselves in.

[Lev]

LOL your missing 2 extremely important points in this discussion.. first off we do not need arrows to increase dps, we need arrows to function period.Secondly WE ARE SCOUTS, we also use poisons. And we are not complaining about that now are we?<div></div>

[Terrius]

<DIV>The bowyer's arrow costs killed my ranger and then mutilated my corpse <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Need more arrows! eek  Glad to see a Dev share in our pain though LOL</DIV>

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR> <FONT size=2>As an example, we had a guild group go to SoS last night to help some folks catch up on Claymore quest line.  At level 70, spending a lot of time in SoS is akin to pulling one's own teeth one at a time with a pair of rusty pliers.  Therefore, we just blast throuth it as fast as possible.  I was already at what I consider 'low' on arrows, as I only had about one and a half t7 rare quivers' worth.  Even using Master I Makeshift Arrows every time it was up, by the time we quit, I had 4 stacks of arrows left.  There's no way I'll be able to get through the week without buying arrows now.<BR><BR>How about something like "Fill Quiver"<BR><BR>Fill Quiver<BR>Summons one quiver of arrows.<BR></FONT> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>If quiver equipped in ammo slot.</FONT></LI> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>If no quiver equipped in ammo slot, summons one stack of arrows into the ammo slot.</FONT></LI></UL></UL> <UL> <LI><FONT size=2>Will not summon arrows outside of quiver.<BR></FONT></LI></UL><FONT size=2><BR><BR>Now if they really wanted to get creative, how about having the quality of the CA, i.e. Adept I, Adept III, Master I, etc. effect the level of the arrow.  For instance, App I summon level 60 arrows for the t7 version, level 63 arrows for the App III, level 65 for the App IV, level 66 for the Adept I, level 67 for the Adept III, level 69 for the Master I, and level 70 (yes, t8 arrows) for the Master II.<BR><BR>That, in my opinion, would add something to the game.  Put it on some arbitrary timer.  Since it wouldn't put any arrows into other bags, the timer becomes almost irrelevant.<BR><BR>Minimal impact on woodworkers, but if they really wanted to 'fix' wookworkers, give them back useful arrows to craft.  Magic damage arrows, cold, divine, etc.<BR><BR>Not a perfect solution, I know, but I'm sure my fellow rangers can help out with this if they like the idea.<BR></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Zholain on <SPAN class=date_text>01-09-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I like this idea, most intelligent thing I have ever seen someone come up with no this board, but then again the question wont be if this is overkill or not the question the devs will bring up is will this finally balance out the ranger class or will this just be another EQ?</P> <P>Honestly none of us can come up with a valid response, maybe not fill the whole quiver but summon more arrows period, I like this idea it just needs to be refined, not to a whole quiver but say maybe 5 or so stacks and use the same reuse timer as our regular summon arrows, but definately not sure if i said this or not already, lol, I like the idea, just needs to get refined a little.</P> <P>As for the dev post it actually made me happy, honestly my faith has been brought back these past few months seeing as the devs actually are looking into our problems but then again you also gotta see the blindside is that there are other class issues to look in, you focus on one class then all others get blown out of proportion, and then it causes the devs more trouble cause then these classes will complain about them not getting any attention. Basically what I'm trying to get at is that even tho a dev did respond and they are looking into it could be 2 months or longer from now before it gets fixed, thanks to the class balancing that has been brought out with EQ2 no one class can be better than the other, so instead of focusing everything nito one class they must take look into all others as well.</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW I thought I'd mention I like this idea, [Removed for Content]</P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT: Also I was wandering if someone can crunch some numbers and see if they cna match this out into a place where its not overkill, id like to see that idea happen, dont use a whole quiver just use a small proportion say, 5 or 6 stacks with the reuse timer of our origional arrow summon skill we get</P><p>Message Edited by Gnome mercy on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 AM</span>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tamesan wrote:<div></div>I understand the cost issues and sympathise. It is stated that other classes dont have to pay to increase their DPS, BUT Scout poison users certainly do and have to keep a fair variety of them on hand for the various situations they find themselves in.<hr></blockquote>I'm sorry, I thought this thread was titled 'Arrows, Bloody hell' not 'Poisons, Bloody Hell' and that the main jist of the discussion centered around said arrows or did somebody do a swicth while I wasn't looking?</div>

[LoreLady]

Personally, I think that all crafted arrows should be legendary - this would fill the gap when we lack sufficient AA's or dont have a DT bow (rangers who have been around on these fourms know what im talking about).. This would give the ranger the ability to keep up with other classes while the cost still being minimal..I would love to see arrows that have effects to other classes as well, like an arrow that has a chance to get extra agro, less agro,  to AE - (but reduced damage), or elemental arrows..I personally think that our AA line should summon t8 arrows as well, currently its pretty useless to put anything on that line, its easier (debatable lol) to just pay the arrows then spend 10 aa's to get one ability.

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamesan wrote:<BR> I understand the cost issues and sympathise. It is stated that other classes dont have to pay to increase their DPS, BUT Scout poison users certainly do and have to keep a fair variety of them on hand for the various situations they find themselves in.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Poison's another sore spot, but it's not the debate here. Arrows don't just increase a ranger's DPS--they ARE the DPS. If you run out of poisons, you can still use all of your CA's. If we run out of arrows, we can't use the vast majority of our CA's. This would be like having to pay 6 silver every time you swing your melee weapon. Don't have 6 silver? Your melee weapon <EM>doesn't swing</EM>.

[BigChiefJJ]

<P>I really like the idea of having our CA's not consume any arrows - this would be a partially endless quiver but we would still need to buy/reclaim/make arrows for our auto-attack.  I do agree that the CA's would still need to have the ability to proc just as an actual arrow was fired.</P> <P>Not sure if this is feasable or not but what if our CA's consumed different types of arrows than our auto-attack?  Possibly put T7 arrows at the top of your quiver and have your auto-attack use those and place T1 arrows at the bottom of your quiver and have your CA's pull from those, since your CA's dont care about arrow tier.   It would take a little more effort on the rangers part to manage your quiver but would certanilly make it cheaper to by tin arrows rather than adamantine ones. </P> <P>Another option would be to have woodworkers make an "endless arrow" that can be put into the quiver that would take up one slot and your CA's would pull from that slot, but your auto-attack would pull bought/reclaimed/made arrows.  Woodworkers could make different types of these "endless arrows" similir to the differnt types of imbued wands????  </P> <P>Wodreaux -Ranger/Woodworker</P>

[Nulad]

We shouldn't be paying for arrows period. Paying for auto-attack and not for CA's is a poor solution. The simple fact remains that no other class relies on a bought/paid for component to do either auto-attack or CA damage everytime a skill is used in combat.<div></div>

[Oakum]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xandez wrote:<BR> yah, its sad that i can make nice DPS with my warden and still able to heal as a single healer in instances <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>and all that w/o paying 1c to do so. <BR><BR>and with 90% treasured gear...  <BR><BR>yah, not played my ranger too much lately because of that... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>sad, but i've finally became so tired of the constant arrow and poison hoarding, the warden ezymode really did that for me... sniff<BR><BR>And we are fine in DPS department? Rofl, maybe, but we still require GOOD gear (espec bow with T8 arrows) and we still have to use LOADS of arrows and LOADS of poisons to get the fine DPS. That is what i dont understand... every caster has the ability to do their DPS as "ranged" like we. Why do we have to be the ONLY class to pay to do it decently (ok, maybe assassins also and other poison users, but... you get teh point <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) <BR><BR><BR>++Xan<BR><BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by xandez on <SPAN class=date_text>01-03-2007</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>LoL, a meleeing ranger will out dps a warden especially in treasured gear. Got to love that statement. Maybe you have a fury and just dont know it. Just being funny with that last one as i am 99.9 percent sure you would know if you had a fury. Yep got to like warden easy mode. Spam all heals, repeat and add group heals since that is the only way we have a hope of handling a big spike hit, repeat spam heals and throw in a nuke. Good fight. Wardens should be given bows so that we can have easy mode DPS like rangers. Stay safe from aoe's and hits and do decent damage. I would pay for arrows if they let us use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>KK, getting a little out there with that reply but I did it to emphase to Xan to please not to artifically inflate my primary class in order to get his primary class fixed since that may give the dev's the false opinion that wardens are fine when we have some very valid issues including useless spells, being out dps'ed by other non druid priest when druids are the DPS hybrids, and the useless eof AA's. Cures line were okay but not great but now are worthless since they were nerfed. I had to respect and even let points sit unused until i have some free time since I am not a PVPer and the rest just dont really improve the class at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing a priest to a priest for DPS is valid. Comparing a ranger to a priest for DPS is invalid since if you ever ran a parser you would know that Fury's are the best DPS priest thanks in part to their usefull EOF aa's and I have yet to parse even half of a rangers DPS in a combination of legendary with some fabled even when not required to heal.  <BR></DIV>

[Oakum]

<P>Since the trade skill revamp the only crafting that makes money is some rare armor/weapons, adept 3 for those too "inconvenienced" or making too much money adventuring to harvest their own rares, and now tinkering and trasmuting which will gradually become much less profitable as more people level them until people can make better money adventuring there too. Of course the best adornments have already been nerfed like the common crafting was so that people no longer feel any great need to have them. Every little bit helps and someday I plan on getting some for more then just my sword. Leather wearing, wisdom/power buffing melee DPS healer FTH. </P> <P>Course if I had to buy arrows I wouldn't want anyone to make a decent profit off of them either since that would raise my cost even if they would increase my dps. Course I do have a woodworker for both invis totems for my warden and now for arrows for my little Ranger.  <BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stormhawk wrote:<BR>The only way to truly balance us against the other classes is to make arrows cost nothing.  The only way to do that is to implement Endless Quiver.  Since that will never happen, rangers will never be balanced.  I'd love to see a Dev try to actually justify why we are forced to pay for every attack we make.  An alternative solution in the mean time would be to add T8 summon to the Wurm Destroyer.<BR><BR>Crafting is not the answer.  They don't make money off arrows now nor do they need to in the future.  HOWEVER, add Double Attack totems, DPS mod totems or something of the like, that would be a good cost vs. reward crafted item.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gareorn]

Somebody left the door open again!

[Kala Asuras]

<div></div><i>Nuladen wrote:We shouldn't be paying for arrows period. Paying for auto-attack and not for CA's is a poor solution. The simple fact remains that no other class relies on a bought/paid for component to do either auto-attack or CA damage everytime a skill is used in combat.</i>I personally have no problem with paying for arrows I use in auto attack and here is why; it enables the developers to add different and more powerful arrows into such a mechanic.  I still hold out hope for the higher quality or different effect arrows that were promised by Beghn so long ago.  If some of these other solutions were instituted we would never be able to have such an option.  If our current reclaimed line is insufficient to keep up with auto attack demand then the numbers of returned arrows could be increased.Kalara Asuras<div></div><p>Message Edited by Kala Asuras on <span class=date_text>01-10-2007</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 PM</span>

[lilmohi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kala Asuras wrote:<BR>Months and months ago I participated in a long discussion about arrows.  I still feel that the ideal situation would be if CAs could be made to not consume arrows but still proc all effects correctly.  Our consumption goes down to auto attack (yes more than other classes but a solution I could live with) and a huge plus is that it would make it possible for us to get the full benefit of higher quality crafted arrows if they are ever put in (another if).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I coudln't agree with this more.  CA's already ignore the quality of arrows used and on top of that with all the multi shots they use probably about 4x's more arrows than auto attack alone.  That change alone would lower the arrow burden tremendously.  I don't want to do away with arrows entirely because i do like the fact that special arrows can have a nice positive bonus.</P> <P>As for arrows that are used by autoattack we do have reclaim skills that can generate arrows at roughly half the usage rate (assuming you are going non stop ranged auto attack).  And for those who play hard enough to not even be able to keep up with arrows still, then there is a gather arrow enhancement aa.  I know a lot hate the idea of spending aa points on this, but what if they tweaked the AA so that not only did it summon arrows faster, but higher level arrows as well (ie. +1-2 level per aa spent).  That way your aa will not only get you more than enough arrows, but will also increase your dps a tad.</P> <P>I agree with what others have said and that is that no broken game mechanic should be fixed with aa's.  If they make endless quiver an aa then it would probably be an end-line skill and then every ranger would have no choice but to go down that line.  </P> <P>I'd also like to see magical quivers out there that can can generate their own magic arrows like the raid bows do (perhaps not quite as powerful however).</P>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nuladen wrote:<BR>We shouldn't be paying for arrows period. Paying for auto-attack and not for CA's is a poor solution. The simple fact remains that no other class relies on a bought/paid for component to do either auto-attack or CA damage everytime a skill is used in combat.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're only half correct. Assassin's have ranged CA. They consume arrows as does the AA that they use when they are using these ranged CAs. Swashys and Brigs also have ranged CAs. They also consume ammo (thrown).</P> <P>A more accurate statement would be that no other classes ability to do their job relies so heavily on a bought/paid for component. Other classes still have to buy ammo and other classes still have to use that bought ammo if they want to 'be all that they can be'.</P> <P>This issue is that an Assassin without arrows may not eeek out all the DPS he can, but he can still do good DPS. He's hurt by the lack of them, but not incapacitated. A Ranger without arrows is pointless.</P> <P>I feel the need to correct you because it's statements like these that bring on the ire of non-rangers on this issue.</P>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lilmohi wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kala Asuras wrote:<BR>Months and months ago I participated in a long discussion about arrows.  I still feel that the ideal situation would be if CAs could be made to not consume arrows but still proc all effects correctly.  Our consumption goes down to auto attack (yes more than other classes but a solution I could live with) and a huge plus is that it would make it possible for us to get the full benefit of higher quality crafted arrows if they are ever put in (another if).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I coudln't agree with this more.  CA's already ignore the quality of arrows used and on top of that with all the multi shots they use probably about 4x's more arrows than auto attack alone.  That change alone would lower the arrow burden tremendously.  I don't want to do away with arrows entirely because i do like the fact that special arrows can have a nice positive bonus.</P> <P>As for arrows that are used by autoattack we do have reclaim skills that can generate arrows at roughly half the usage rate (assuming you are going non stop ranged auto attack).  And for those who play hard enough to not even be able to keep up with arrows still, then there is a gather arrow enhancement aa.  I know a lot hate the idea of spending aa points on this, but what if they tweaked the AA so that not only did it summon arrows faster, but higher level arrows as well (ie. +1-2 level per aa spent).  That way your aa will not only get you more than enough arrows, but will also increase your dps a tad.</P> <P>I agree with what others have said and that is that no broken game mechanic should be fixed with aa's.  If they make endless quiver an aa then it would probably be an end-line skill and then every ranger would have no choice but to go down that line.  </P> <P>I'd also like to see magical quivers out there that can can generate their own magic arrows like the raid bows do (perhaps not quite as powerful however).</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think a better solution is just to get a % of our arrows back, the same type that was consumed. If on average every other class uses 100 arrows in an hour of play, and a ranger uses 1000 arrows in an hour of play, we should get roughly 90% back.

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>Starness wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Nuladen wrote:We shouldn't be paying for arrows period. Paying for auto-attack and not for CA's is a poor solution. The simple fact remains that no other class relies on a bought/paid for component to do either auto-attack or CA damage everytime a skill is used in combat. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You're only half correct. Assassin's have ranged CA. They consume arrows as does the AA that they use when they are using these ranged CAs. Swashys and Brigs also have ranged CAs. They also consume ammo (thrown).</p> <p>A more accurate statement would be that no other classes ability to do their job relies so heavily on a bought/paid for component. Other classes still have to buy ammo and other classes still have to use that bought ammo if they want to 'be all that they can be'.</p> <p>This issue is that an Assassin without arrows may not eeek out all the DPS he can, but he can still do good DPS. He's hurt by the lack of them, but not incapacitated. A Ranger without arrows is pointless.</p> <p>I feel the need to correct you because it's statements like these that bring on the ire of non-rangers on this issue.</p><hr></blockquote>That's why I said 'relies', don't correct me for you mis-interpretation.</div>

[LoreLady]

Please dont start bickering over semantics please.. You both agree with eachother, there is no need to go on about it.. If either of you wish to debate on why rangers should keep things the way they are, or why we should have to pay money, or anything to that effect im more than happy to debate it.. However, I am not going to jump in on a bad sibling squabbel.

[Deson]

I've seen this thread type multiple times so I didn't read anything before the Dev statement, my apologies if this has been said before.As vendor crafted are more cost effective and near as effective, I'd just prefer they gave a rare crafted, inifinite tier appropriate arrow. After doing that, maybe they can go back and actually add in some of those unique arrow types that they claimed keep them from adding infinite quiver type skills. To keep ammo relevant, I've also suggested that they make a special class of adornment for ammo. After all, they did say that one of the main motivations for not giving endless quiver was that it limited what type of ammo could be added into the game, why not actually add some variety in ammo then to justify this? To keep crafted relevant, make such adorns work only on crafted arrow stacks. Heck, they could even bring back the pre-LU24 rare arrows/ammo and have them be used for this purpose as well.I hope this issue doesnt languish for yet another year waiting for resolution. At the very least, arrow quality should matter for the art/the art should compensate for the auto attack damage.<div></div>

[xandez]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Oakum wrote: <div>LoL, a meleeing ranger will out dps a warden especially in treasured gear. Got to love that statement. Maybe you have a fury and just dont know it. Just being funny with that last one as i am 99.9 percent sure you would know if you had a fury. <font color="#ff9900">Nope, i have a warden, lvl 70 with 75 AA:s atm... And its a melee warden.</font>Yep got to like warden easy mode. Spam all heals, repeat and add group heals since that is the only way we have a hope of handling a big spike hit, repeat spam heals and throw in a nuke. Good fight. <font color="#ff9900">Yah, i admit that spike hits are a tad annoying, but... For normal group / instance play, thats not an issue... its more of an issue in raiding i would say.Or atleast i've had a blast even tanking some instances... its funny that you really dont need taunts if you have a small enough group playing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(trio)</font>Wardens should be given bows so that we can have easy mode DPS like rangers. Stay safe from aoe's and hits and do decent damage. I would pay for arrows if they let us use them.<font color="#ff9900">Well, its hard to stay safe from AoE:s if you're a melee warden anyway? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><font color="#ff9900"></font><font color="#ff9900">And if you believe what they write about spellcasting wardens, they actually outdps the melee ones by 200-300DPS (iirc, or something like that). So, what gives? Arent warden out of AoE range also with their spells or not?</font></div> <div> </div> <div>KK, getting a little out there with that reply but I did it to emphase to Xan to please not to artifically inflate my primary class in order to get his primary class fixed since that may give the dev's the false opinion that wardens are fine when we have some very valid issues including useless spells, being out dps'ed by other non druid priest when druids are the DPS hybrids, and the useless eof AA's. <font color="#ff9900">Well, my primary class seems to be the warden nowadays, so... And all classes have useless spells. And if you're being outDPS:ed by other NONdruid priests, there's something really wrong about your playstyle <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><font color="#ff9900"></font><font color="#ff9900">And the warden eof AA's arent useless either, they opened a whole new exiting playstyle to the class. Melee. If you dont like it, it doesnt mean that it sucks.</font>Cures line were okay but not great but now are worthless since they were nerfed. I had to respect and even let points sit unused until i have some free time since I am not a PVPer and the rest just dont really improve the class at all.<font color="#ff9900">Yah, sucks that they nerfed em to uselesness...</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Comparing a priest to a priest for DPS is valid. Comparing a ranger to a priest for DPS is invalid<b> since if you ever ran a parser you would know that Fury's</b> are the best DPS priest thanks in part to their usefull EOF aa's and I have yet to parse even half of a rangers DPS in a combination of legendary with some fabled even when not required to heal. <b><font color="#ff9900">*edit*</font><font color="#ff9900"></font><font color="#ff9900">oh and i log every second of my play time, so yah, i really have run some parses.... </font></b><font color="#ff9900">No, its not invalid. Comparing a scout DPS to priest DPS is valid, since the scout DPS should be >>>> than the priest DPS. No matter what priest class is compared. It still should be that way.... And besides, im 100% sure that i will LOOSE every parse against my warden with my ranger IF i didnt use any arrows or poisons... and i think you know it too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Of course i will outDPS my warden if i use my ranger how it should be... But the whole point of this thread was that the arrow usage for ranger is MASSIVE and your sucky gather arrow CA:s wont help you in the long run. You WILL have to buy a LOTS of arrows if you wanna play with your ranger a lot. Even DEV's have stated this really is an issue. I was just pointing out, that this is 1 of the main reasons im not playing my ranja anymore, instead i play with my melee warden... which pays 0c for her DPS and heals. And i have a blast <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Sry for the derail on my msg, but i just had to reply once... </font></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900">++Xan</font><p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>01-11-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:23 PM</span>

[Hisvet]

<P>No idea what level you are Deson but maybe you should go back and read the thread, because it doesn't read like you especially understand the quandry.  I admit forums are poor to read this off of but it sounds like you don't think we have an arrow problem.  It reads like you think woodworkers make cheaper arrows and that can meet the demand of rangers.  It get that off of this statement:</P> <P>Quote:</P> <P><STRONG><EM>As vendor crafted are more cost effective and near as effective, I'd just prefer they gave a rare crafted, inifinite tier appropriate arrow</EM></STRONG>. After doing that, maybe they can go back and actually add in some of those unique arrow types that they claimed keep them from adding infinite quiver type skills. To keep ammo relevant, I've also suggested that they make a special class of adornment for ammo. After all, they did say that one of the main motivations for not giving endless quiver was that it limited what type of ammo could be added into the game, why not actually add some variety in ammo then to justify this? To keep crafted relevant, make such adorns work only on crafted arrow stacks. Heck, they could even bring back the pre-LU24 rare arrows/ammo and have them be used for this purpose as well.</P> <P>-------------------------------------------</P> <P>??</P> <P>The whole point of this is that pc crafted arrows are <U><EM>NOT</EM></U> cost effective.  Go ask the woodworkers.  Not for crafters and not for rangers.  Not even remotely.  The difference in crafting to buying off an npc vendor is 1 silver for a lot more pain in time wasted.  Woodworkers will not make arrows, they don't want to, it makes no sense, its too much work and there is no profit.  And I don't blame them when I go through so many arrows.  This effect only really comes about the higher level you get as a ranger, the faster you get, the better geared you get, the more AAs you have and if you raid or group regularly arrow consumption all increases.  Even some solo rangers are feeling it at the highest levels.</P> <P>With a secondary point being as the ONLY class that is a primary ranged class using consumables (assassin, troubs, swashies are not PRIMARY RANGED nor do they rely on range for the significant amount of their damage, nor do they have AAs consuming arrows at our rate) why the heck are we paying for it?  And not just paying for it going bankrupt for it over and over and being extra punished for it by raiding, and using the AA lines that *increase* (ahem multshot? anything affecting our CA and autoattacks and gives us doubleshot) our arrow use making us the most expensive class by a not even debateable margin in this game?</P> <P>Personally I'd like to see my arrow animation replaced with *kaching* sound effects or the whole gold coins with wings thing someone suggested in another thread.  Go and fight yellow and orange con mobs at 70 every week and think about how much you are spending everytime you *miss* because those take arrows too.</P> <P>I think there have been some interesting, not so practical and incredibly insiteful views here.  We have a dev that says he plays ranger.  We've heard it before with the issue, we have a class being extremely hurt by it and other ranged that complain about it too.  We should not even be having this discussion.  This is patently unbalanced, unfair, unfun, class defining, impacts other spheres like crafting and the economy and needs to be addressed.</P><p>Message Edited by Hisvet on <span class=date_text>01-11-2007</span> <span class=time_text>11:02 AM</span>

[Deaudlus]

I personally would like to see whatever solution they come up with involve crafting.  Mostly increasing the amount of arrows made per combine.  I would take up woodworking and make my own.  Just something about making my own ammo would make my ranger even more personal.<div></div>

[Deson]

I apologize,I wasn't clear. If it were practical, I'd link a previous post I made a long time ago when this issue was raised. I don't think paying for common ammo  is a good idea. As was stated in an earlier post,  any cost that no one else has to endure is unfair.My comment  about vendor cost vs crafted cost was just a fragment that I currently can't think of how to clarify so ignore it.In a perfect world, I'd like the common ammo to just be "automatic" with the bow; the bow supplies it's own ammo without summoning or anything, it's just assumed there. I doubt the mechanics will support that any time soon so, I just suggested the unlimited ammo item as a place holder until then.The rest of my suggestion was to actually address the current lack of variety in arrows since it's oft cited as a reason they dont want to add an "endless quiver" like item/ability.I'd personally really like to see some variety there for both crafting and usage reasons. Crafting so that there's a reason to do it and usage so that there is some thought to matching arrows to the situation. No matter what though, the current situation just doesnt work and I'd like to see some change just like everyone else but, I don't want it to just be cosmetic like increasing stack limits/ crafted results. I'd actually like the "Kaching" sound, would make me think I was playing the old Zelda.<div></div>

[Rathskael]

<DIV>Hard to keep the Rangers happy as well a Woodworkers. I have both and don't like the situation for either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at the Carpenter's repair kit. Anyone can buy a few of these and carry them around and fix their own gear if it gets below 40% condition. You don't have to be a Armorer, Tailor, Weaponsmith, Woodworker or Jeweler to do this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was thinking that instead of having a Woodworker craft stacks of ammo for hours on end, they could instead craft ammo-making kits for each tier capable of making 1000 ammo with each use. At present prices, this would cost about 50g each in fuel at tier 7 and I agree that the fuel cost of crafter-made arrows should be halved at least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This way you don't have to worry about space for extra ammo. Rangers are still paying for arrows, but hopefully at a reduced cost. Woodworkers have something worthwhile to craft as Rangers can stock up on several kits: Adamantine Slashing Arrow Kit, Adamantine Rounded Arrow Kit, etc.</DIV>

[Xeph]

<DIV>Due to lack of developer support for this issue I will be playing Vanguard regardless of the situation over there. How's that for ultimate frustration. I'm sorry it had to come to this but I just don't appreciate the lack of support for your "valued" customers. I was looking at graphs for MMO active subscriptions recently and I was shocked at how the population of this game has declined since it's peak a year ago. Couple this with seeing other games like WoW continuing to gain ground... it should be very obvious to developers what the problem is. Very good attempt guys, I really have enjoyed most of my time here due to the people I've met (not the support we received as Rangers obviously). If I sound bitter well... that's to be expected with the cone of silence on valid issues across the board. Please be advised that paying customers expect communication from support on troublesome issues. Even if it is "hey we can't fix that, sorry" at least we know. To you execs making the (poor) decision to not communicate... just look at your shrinking population.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the flamers and execs in denial... <A href="http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html" target=_blank>http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In closing let me say...<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nah Nah Nah Nah!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nah Nah Nah Nah!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey Hey Hey!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vanguard!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*Parade wave*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[BSbon]

<DIV>this one is easier to read</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><FONT color=#800080><A href="http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html" target=_blank>http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html</A></FONT></U><A href="http://www.mmogchart.com/" target=_blank></A></DIV>

[Xeph]

<P>You are correct Bongo. I was trying to show the explosive growth of that other MMO we all love to hate without mentioning the vast gap directly *hehe*.</P> <P>btw I'll miss seeing you around here man. You've made some very good points without resorting to flame wars and the like. Hope you keep up the comics too!</P> <P>I was frustrated when writing my post obviously. I apologize if I've offended any devs. I understand that your hands are tied on a lot of this stuff and this is your job; whereas this is our beloved recreation. Take care fellow Rangers and best of luck in the future.</P>

[Monstage]

<P>Beaten by toontown online. Thats just...sad.</P> <P>After seeing all the problems highlighted on these forums and the constant destabilising changes/nerfs (especially the nerfs) I am beginnning to think that this game should have had another year of balancing and tweaking before even going to beta.  There have been far, far to many changes. Fair enough, it's nice to face new challenges but they should be from the quests and raid mobs we are facing, not from having to relearn the combat system every 2 months and having to struggle over important issues with a non-responsive development team. I mean I only have to say one word....arrows....to prove my point there. </P> <P>SOE, you should realise that there are people playing their characters to the limit and finding all sorts of flaws and problems which genuinely need looking into. People have far,far more time playing their respective  classes than you do because you are busy writing and developing the game. Of course we dont expect perfection, thats impossible.  I am not saying give everybody what they want all the time, of course not.  Just let us know that issues are being dealt with and actually show that you are listening. After all we ARE paying customers. </P> <P>If you were to go out, buy a TV, got it home and it didnt work and then took it back to the shop and told the guy in the store the problem and he just stares at you blankly, not even showing any interest in what you are saying then you would have to assume that they don't give a toss and you definately would not go back there again would you? Well thats how many rangers are feeling right now and as a result people are leaving the game, not just switching toons but actually closing accounts and going elsewhere and as you can see from that chart, there are plenty of other places to go (even discounting the WoWcancer that is taking over the world).</P> <P>It's such a shame because you have made a really nice world with interesting lore, pretty graphics, good music and a dynamic combat system. There is the potential here to be great, not just good. Unfortunately you have really, really got to learn to communicate with your customers. Every now and then a red name on the forums does help belive it or not, even if you can't say much because of contractual reasons, but you must, MUST follow up the words with actions at some point. Just saying "we are looking ito it" and leaving it at that is just not enough.</P> <P>Personally I wont be leaving the game. This isn't a dear John letter. I like to many aspects of it to give it up but I just find it really disappointing to see how low the player numbers are and hope that the whole game wont just die a long, slow, protracted death.</P> <P>Oh, and by the way, when you make changes that can cause multiple deaths to raids/groups at least have the common decency to let people know about the changes you have made. I am talking about surveillance here and you know it. That was just plain unfair to so many people.</P>

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xephre wrote:<BR> <P>You are correct Bongo. I was trying to show the explosive growth of that other MMO we all love to hate without mentioning the vast gap directly *hehe*.</P> <P>btw I'll miss seeing you around here man. You've made some very good points without resorting to flame wars and the like. Hope you keep up the comics too!</P> <P>I was frustrated when writing my post obviously. I apologize if I've offended any devs. I understand that your hands are tied on a lot of this stuff and this is your job; whereas this is our beloved recreation. Take care fellow Rangers and best of luck in the future.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i try not to attack people. when you do you just proved that thier argument is valid and you have nothing but insults left. and vanguard is coming out soon. i'll be trying it out after its out for a few months. if i like it more than eq2 i'll be switching but i'll always make comics <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Off]

I've sent in /feedback before requesting that an AA change be implemented for only one thing that really sticks out in my mind.  Instead of the Reclaim AA, include Endless Quiver in this game.  Those of you who played EQ1 will know what that is.  The cost of arrows is high enough as it is for a soloer/non-raider; get a Ranger who raids and that cost more than doubles.  The recast timers on the summon arrow skills and its upgrades are rediculously long at 10 minutes, the amount of arrows summoned per cast is puny, and good for only a few fights if you have only the adept I version.  Will Endless Quiver be implemented?  I really hope so.  yet, only SOE can answer that one.  My theory is that if you don't ask, you'll never know.  I love playing the Ranger though, and though arrows is of big concern, each class out there has it's own downfalls.<div></div>

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Offem wrote:<BR>I've sent in /feedback before requesting that an AA change be implemented for only one thing that really sticks out in my mind.  Instead of the Reclaim AA, include Endless Quiver in this game.  Those of you who played EQ1 will know what that is.  The cost of arrows is high enough as it is for a soloer/non-raider; get a Ranger who raids and that cost more than doubles.  The recast timers on the summon arrow skills and its upgrades are rediculously long at 10 minutes, the amount of arrows summoned per cast is puny, and good for only a few fights if you have only the adept I version.  Will Endless Quiver be implemented?  I really hope so.  yet, only SOE can answer that one.  My theory is that if you don't ask, you'll never know.  I love playing the Ranger though, and though arrows is of big concern, each class out there has it's own downfalls.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>they wont do it I've said this many times before, endless quiver they felt was a huge mistake in eq1 it overpowered rangers there it will overpower us here back in eq1 they all had to make arrows for a long time until EQ came out and months after it was out it was already being overused and very overpowered to rangers, didnt help that they also made AM3 which nearly tripled the damage output they were doing before AM3 but it all happened like that cause rangers just werent enough dps without it, but as i have said before I highly doubt they will put in EQ in eq2. They made that mistake once they probably too afraid to make it again, but who knows we might get lucky and they will do it and like the last expansion that came out make arrows that are special and will not work with EQ and use up ammo anyways, that would be interesting

[Nulad]

Endless quiver wasn't the mistake, the overpowered rare arrows were... (don't shoot me, it's only my opinion... lol)<div></div>

[kartikeya]

<P>Again, what people are ignoring about Endless Quiver is that the rangers in EQ1 were NOT purely or mostly archery based. Prior to the release of Luclin we did our damage in melee, and ranged was very, very weak, used only for pulling or for (very long) kite sessions. Giving Endless Quiver to rangers in EQ1 along with the archery AA's and the special arrows would be like giving assassins all of our ranged CA's, Endless Quiver, and super arrows.</P> <P>Giving Endless Quiver to rangers now would be like, um...uh...every other class in the game. We don't <EM>have</EM> special arrows. Even the T8 ammo only brings us up to match everyone else, and the T8 bows practically are an Endless Quiver already. If they wanted to add special arrows, I'm sure there's the capability to make Endless Quiver not work on them, but right now, I'd rather they focus on fixing the problems with the arrows we have now, rather than us sit and say 'but if they do this, then they won't be able to do suchandsuch thing that currently doesn't exist and may never exist at all'. Running out of arrows isn't a 'balance' feature. I daresay most rangers that have this problem make sure they are stocked up before a raid, it just <EM>costs</EM> an arm and a leg simply to do damage that any other class can do for free (And don't talk about poisons, we have to buy poisons too. Take away poisons from a scout and they'll do less damage, take away arrows from a ranger and it's like you've given them Nerf(c) daggers to try and stab with.)</P>

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nuladen wrote:<BR>Endless quiver wasn't the mistake, the overpowered rare arrows were... (don't shoot me, it's only my opinion... lol)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>this could be true. I cna agree there that the what 11dmg arrows + 2 or 3 of the other damage arrows did make the difference, bigtime. Who knows maybe we will get lucky enough to hear from a dev and tell us what they think about all this and what their plans our for our future

[Azrael_888]

<div></div>I think what your missing here is that not every ranger can get an Ichor or some other T8 ammo summoning bow. WOODWORKERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE T8 AMMO PERIOD.   But we can't.  When we make arrows we shouldn't have to struggle for 4 progress bars to only make 25 in one batch.  It's a waste of time and the cost/profit ratio is too high.  Buy em off the vendor.  Hell I know rangers lvl 70 t8 raiding rangers that buy TIN Arrows!  TIN for Christ sakes because they can't afford to use their summoned arrows in grps running through instances or afford t7 ammo from the vendor. Endless quivers aren't the answer cause they'll be nerfed with t5 ammo or something of the like.  Increasing the the arrow summoning spells to something like 100 for M1 and the like would be a great start and dropping the recast to 8 min or so would be even better (and I'm talking WITHOUT AA's God that AA thing is so much BULL[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn])All in all if woodworkers could make 75 arrows per 4 progress bar bushels and give them some T8 arrow making spells w/o having to use rares it would make it more cost effective to "waste" the time to make a couple thousand arrows in as little as half an hour as compared to making only 1500 or so in an hour now (based on making 25 arrows every 2 min averaged)And lower the cost of sandpaper while your at it! I mean christ did God himself make it imbued with special properties?  or maybe make a special arrow only sandpaper for at least t7 ammo since they wont give wooworkes a way to make t8 ammo.<div></div>

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Azrael_888 wrote:<BR> I think what your missing here is that not every ranger can get an Ichor or some other T8 ammo summoning bow. <BR><BR>WOODWORKERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE T8 AMMO PERIOD.   But we can't.  When we make arrows we shouldn't have to struggle for 4 progress bars to only make 25 in one batch.  It's a waste of time and the cost/profit ratio is too high.  Buy em off the vendor.  Hell I know rangers lvl 70 t8 raiding rangers that buy TIN Arrows!  TIN for Christ sakes because they can't afford to use their summoned arrows in grps running through instances or afford t7 ammo from the vendor. <BR><BR>Endless quivers aren't the answer cause they'll be nerfed with t5 ammo or something of the like.  Increasing the the arrow summoning spells to something like 100 for M1 and the like would be a great start and dropping the recast to 8 min or so would be even better (and I'm talking WITHOUT AA's God that AA thing is so much BULL[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn])<BR><BR>All in all if woodworkers could make 75 arrows per 4 progress bar bushels and give them some T8 arrow making spells w/o having to use rares it would make it more cost effective to "waste" the time to make a couple thousand arrows in as little as half an hour as compared to making only 1500 or so in an hour now (based on making 25 arrows every 2 min averaged)<BR><BR>And lower the cost of sandpaper while your at it! I mean christ did God himself make it imbued with special properties?  or maybe make a special arrow only sandpaper for at least t7 ammo since they wont give wooworkes a way to make t8 ammo.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>God thought it would make great toilet paper, just take and staple some to your floor and then watch is in less than 2 weeks your dog will never rub his [Removed for Content] on your carpet again, [Removed for Content]</P> <P>Although tin!? Your dps would drop so much they wouldn't even worth the 1cp spent per arrow if anything id go a higher tier or just suck it up and use your summoned arrows. I know right now its really hard times but theres gotta be somewhere to get some cheap [Removed for Content] arrows, also i think that woodworkers should get the benefeit or making more than 25 arrows per make in EQ1 they made a whole stack (which in EQ1 was only 20 arrows) but in EQ1 also arrows werent used half as much as EQ2, so maybe a whole lot more let woodworkers make 99 arrows per comebine that would actually give them some profit and us some decent arrows to buy cheaper than usual</P>

[Gnome mercy]

<P>Sorry for the double post but I halfto add this:</P> <P>I think we are focusing too much on the AP's. If you ask me we should not halfto focus on them cause as far as it goes the devs strictly said when they came out that AP's were made to help us become different from the rest, maybe some kind of CA buff or something or just take the arrow semantics out of our ranged CAs and just not need us to use arrows while using our ranged CAs, I don't mind using them in autoattack for the very simple reason, the arrows actually help our ranged dps, but no matter what arrow you use our CAs will always deal the same exact damage. So why pay for it if our arrows dont change our ranged CA damage? Now thats what bugs me</P>

[nirav21]

<P>I am gona try to bump this thread to top of the page.</P> <P>I belive that this is Ranger's number 1 problem.</P> <P>I would also like to sum up some points others suggested.</P> <P>making arrow crafting to 99 per 1 crafting period.</P> <P>lowering the price of crafted arrows.</P> <P>more arrows per Summoning CA.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Monstage]

<DIV>I agree. We should keep reminding everybody that the problem is still here. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I have been reporting the arrow problem as a bug and will keep doing so until something is done. If there are 50-100 bug reports everyday from fed-up rangers then we shouldnt be ignored.</DIV>

[Loki_d20]

As a newb ranger who previously posted on this thread as 'not a ranger,'  I think there are some possibilities to be had.The first issue is that it really isn't at all worthwhile for woodworkers to make arrows except to sell at ridiculous prices due to the supply and demand of them by rangers.  As a ranger/woodworker who thought it would save him time and money to just craft his own arrows, I was greatly disappointed to see that I spent more time and effort on making the arrows than it was worth to just buy them or take up jewelcraft and makeshift some arrows while I was working on making myself some combat art upgrades and jewelry.My first suggestion is to illiminate the levels of quality of arrows so that all levels will create 25 arrows.  This mean, like Adept III recipes, the crafter can succeed at the first tier and cancel out the recipe as a whole.  This makes for much faster crafting time.  Otherwise, the second option would be to make it so that the pristine level of a recipe would create 99 arrows, enough to fill one slot in a quiver.  Both ideas would more than likely equal out with time spent and arrows gained in the end, except that the second option would use up less recipe components.The other issue is in general the need to use consumable ammo for primary attacks, an issue that has only afflicted Rangers in the game.  I highly doubt SOE is going to create a special rule where we don't consume our ammo or give us the EQ AA ability.  But, my idea here is to add a new Ranger-only quiver to the tailor recipe list.  This quiver is just like normal quivers in regards to ability bonuses but has the added effect of providing a % chance for the Ranger to 'recover' an arrow with each shot fired.  Tier 1 Ranger-only quivers could have a 5% chance to 'recover' a fired arrow, Tier 2 10%, Tier 3 15% and so on.  Mastercrafted Ranger-only quivers could increase the amount by +3 to +5% over the Handcrafted of the same tier.  Legandary/Fable/Mythic versions of these quivers could be added throughout the game to various boss/named mob drop tables as well.  This % chance to recover could eventually cap out at 50% (tier 10, levels 90-99).  If the quiver isn't the option, then I believe an additional self buff with a 2 or 3-slot concentration requirement would be the next best offer (though, it would be yet another buff to fight over the M1 version, which I don't think any class needs at this time).Another issue, though mostly a pain than a game breaking problem, is that the arrows summoned by our makeshift spell and the arrows returned by our melee CA are two different types of arrows.  At my level, the melee CA returns a feyiron arrow and the makeshift arrows return a something-or-other feyiron arrow (sorry, my memory sucks).  The issue is that they don't stack.  So, now, to best manage my arrows I have to track two different types.  Actually, I lie, I don't have to.  In fact, I got bothered with the management of my quiver that I filled it with the makeshift feyiron arrows and just end up deleting the melee CA feyiron arrows when I get more than 99 in my inventroy.I do not think that we need arrows that improve our damage.  I believe a side item to this issue is that there is truly a lack of items out there that increase ranged damage as well as ranged crit chances.  I believe we should look to get these type of things corrected rather than asking for arrows that deal more damage.<div></div>

[Gnome mercy]

<DIV>__________________________________________________ _____________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As previously posted by Loki_D20:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a newb ranger who previously posted on this thread as 'not a ranger,'  I think there are some possibilities to be had.<BR><BR>The first issue is that it really isn't at all worthwhile for woodworkers to make arrows except to sell at ridiculous prices due to the supply and demand of them by rangers.  As a ranger/woodworker who thought it would save him time and money to just craft his own arrows, I was greatly disappointed to see that I spent more time and effort on making the arrows than it was worth to just buy them or take up jewelcraft and makeshift some arrows while I was working on making myself some combat art upgrades and jewelry.<BR><BR>My first suggestion is to illiminate the levels of quality of arrows so that all levels will create 25 arrows.  This mean, like Adept III recipes, the crafter can succeed at the first tier and cancel out the recipe as a whole.  This makes for much faster crafting time.  Otherwise, the second option would be to make it so that the pristine level of a recipe would create 99 arrows, enough to fill one slot in a quiver.  Both ideas would more than likely equal out with time spent and arrows gained in the end, except that the second option would use up less recipe components.<BR><BR>The other issue is in general the need to use consumable ammo for primary attacks, an issue that has only afflicted Rangers in the game.  I highly doubt SOE is going to create a special rule where we don't consume our ammo or give us the EQ AA ability.  But, my idea here is to add a new Ranger-only quiver to the tailor recipe list.  This quiver is just like normal quivers in regards to ability bonuses but has the added effect of providing a % chance for the Ranger to 'recover' an arrow with each shot fired.  Tier 1 Ranger-only quivers could have a 5% chance to 'recover' a fired arrow, Tier 2 10%, Tier 3 15% and so on.  Mastercrafted Ranger-only quivers could increase the amount by +3 to +5% over the Handcrafted of the same tier.  Legandary/Fable/Mythic versions of these quivers could be added throughout the game to various boss/named mob drop tables as well.  This % chance to recover could eventually cap out at 50% (tier 10, levels 90-99).  If the quiver isn't the option, then I believe an additional self buff with a 2 or 3-slot concentration requirement would be the next best offer (though, it would be yet another buff to fight over the M1 version, which I don't think any class needs at this time).<BR><BR>Another issue, though mostly a pain than a game breaking problem, is that the arrows summoned by our makeshift spell and the arrows returned by our melee CA are two different types of arrows.  At my level, the melee CA returns a feyiron arrow and the makeshift arrows return a something-or-other feyiron arrow (sorry, my memory sucks).  The issue is that they don't stack.  So, now, to best manage my arrows I have to track two different types.  Actually, I lie, I don't have to.  In fact, I got bothered with the management of my quiver that I filled it with the makeshift feyiron arrows and just end up deleting the melee CA feyiron arrows when I get more than 99 in my inventroy.<BR><BR>I do not think that we need arrows that improve our damage.  I believe a side item to this issue is that there is truly a lack of items out there that increase ranged damage as well as ranged crit chances.  I believe we should look to get these type of things corrected rather than asking for arrows that deal more damage.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ ___________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry the quote button wasnt working sorry if i got your name wrong, but sum it up lol I got bored on the second sentence and decided to stop reading, [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways basically I'm too stupid to even understnad what this guy wrote even if I read it (I'm a mechanic the only thing i understand is engines lol) But anyways my 2cp on this subject as i have said before please don't bring back endless quiver, just make the arrows 2cp or cheaper than a few pp for 1500 arrows... Just my thoughts, I honestly don't want EQ itll just give the gms a chance to make us better in one way then nerf something else and make our dps even worse. plus I wanna play EQ2 not EQ1</DIV>

[shiala]

<P>on my way out of this game i have to comment on arrows....its the cost, period that was my biggest problem.I played on exchange and actually had to buy PLAT to continue raiding or park my ranger. i spent at least a plat per day on arrows thats just wrong. </P> <P>btw..... ichor and bazkul arent a good solution to arrows even for a raider cause they are useable by ANY class but priests, so many rangers will lose those bows to some greedy assassin or sk.</P> <P> </P> <P>xzander 70 ranger (deleted)</P>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>The answer to this seems simple enough to me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two Words</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Endless Quiver: Here is how it would work</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be an AA to replace the reduction time it takes to get more arrows..and the ranks would go as such.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>rank one: 20% chance not to consume regement</DIV> <DIV>rank two: 40% chance not to consume regement</DIV> <DIV>rank three: 60% chance not to consume regement</DIV> <DIV>rank four: 80% chance not to consume regement</DIV> <DIV>rank five: 100% chance not to consume regement</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and this would fit nicely under the survival line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV> <DIV>ranger 70</DIV> <DIV>Second Dawn</DIV>

[Gnome mercy]

FORGET THAT! Like i said I wanna play EQ2 not EQ1

[LoreLady]

I am still curious how they are going to implement some sort of new system yet keep everyone happy.. I have a feeling I am going to be able to eat my cake and have it to with this one.. Being a ranger, and woodworker..

[Aroumon]

<DIV>Give me some good reasons not to bring back endless quiver...please... </DIV>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>Give me some reason why they shouldn't bring back endless quiver please...and how would it not bennifit the ranger class in a whole?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EMERALD ARROWS...from the looks of it and the drop rates of these arrows we are heading towareds Endless Quiver either way you look at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also no T7 crafted arrows...maybe another sign also. It will help and it will give the extra boost we need without killing any market out there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aroumon Swiftshot</DIV>

[nirav21]

<P>Some one suggested which is the very nice idea. That arrows be only used for Auto attack only and CA require no arrows.</P> <P>Also this is my first ever Everquest character so i dunt know what exactly Endless quiver is can someone pls explain.</P>

[Aroumon]

<DIV>Endless Quiver is an old EQ 1 aa for rangers that you only had to have 1 arrow inside your quiver and you could fire that same arrow forever.</DIV>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Azrael_888 wrote:<BR> I think what your missing here is that not every ranger can get an Ichor or some other T8 ammo summoning bow. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>WOODWORKERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE T8 AMMO PERIOD</FONT>.   But we can't.  When we make arrows we shouldn't have to struggle for 4 progress bars to only make 25 in one batch.  It's a waste of time and the cost/profit ratio is too high.  Buy em off the vendor.  Hell I know rangers lvl 70 t8 raiding rangers that buy TIN Arrows!  TIN for Christ sakes because they can't afford to use their summoned arrows in grps running through instances or afford t7 ammo from the vendor. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know this is a rather late reply, but I just saw this and it really struck a nerve.</P> <P>Woodworks SHOULD NOT be able to make T8 Ammo. First of all, you dont have access to any of the raws required. Second, you should have to wait til everyone else is in T8. Third, T8 Ammo summoning bows are a perk for what was, High End Game Raiding Rangers. Its not a need for every ranger more then its a want. End Game Raid Rangers could make the claim they need it to boost thier DPS, but they again, they are capable of killing the mobs in question to get that perk. Why the hell should crafters be able to negate the hard work of anyone thats put in the time and effort to get one such reward, to have it trivialized by solo or group rangers? They shouldnt have to.</P> <P>Until they put in an EPIC woodworking tables, that come with knockbacks, tail swipes, mem wipes and AEs that you'd have to make adjustments for, getting just the right position on the table and where you have to suffer many many deaths, crafters should never be able to make anything on par with end game raid rewards. However, if they do put in the Epic WW Table, please invite me to your group so I can watch, or at the very least, FRAP it for the rest of us. Im sure then you might have a clear understanding of what its like to work your butt off for a great reward.</P> <P> </P> <P>Okay now that Ive gotten that off my chest. There are many ways that they could improve the arrow usage. I believe most of them have all been mentioned, and all are great ideas. Crafters should have cheaper costs, more arrows per batch (both would be great starts) lowering the cost of arrows all the way around is another great idea. Upping the Arrow output on reclaimed, lowering the recast timer on it. All of them are great ideas, and all of them would have a slight impact on the costs... but would it really help? It wouldnt hurt any, and it would sting alot less, but lets face it, unless arrows are free, we'll still have to pay for them. It just wont sting as much.</P> <P>And if they ever allowed for WWs to create specialty arrows, with a + to certain types of damage, who wouldnt be buying those instead? And then the cycle will start all over again. Because you know the newer arrows do more damage, you'd be tempted to buy those instead of the generic one.<BR></P>

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aroumon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Give me some good reasons not to bring back endless quiver...please... </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>as my last post said its pretty self explanatory, I WANT TO PLAY EQ2 NOT EQ1, can you read the text now? maybe i should make it bigger, 1 second....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=7>I WANT TO PLAY EQ2 NOT EQ1,  there, if you can't read that then there is no hope for you</FONT></P>

[Stormhawk]

If you feel the need to post in a larger font with all caps, you should just not post as it only helps to infuriate people.  Especially when you do so without offering anything to the conversation as you just did.<div></div>

[Nulad]

Endless quiver doesn't make EQ2 suddenly turn into EQ1.  Just as SoW doesn't, or any number of the heritage quest items, or the cities fo Qeynos, Freeport or Kelethin. You Sir have a non-reason.<div></div>

[Arkturis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nuladen wrote:<BR>Endless quiver doesn't make EQ2 suddenly turn into EQ1.  Just as SoW doesn't, or any number of the heritage quest items, or the cities fo Qeynos, Freeport or Kelethin. You Sir have a non-reason.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lets not forget nagafen, vox, crush, dvinn, and all the old zones in one way or another.

[Aroumon]

<DIV>As much as you hate to admit it, this game is EQ1 on a larger scale..we have a variety of attacks...and the entire lore is based on EQ1. you shoot down a valid solution just because you think it will make it like a diffrent game..but in all reality it will balance us.</DIV>

[Azrael_888]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Azrael_888 wrote:<div></div>I think what your missing here is that not every ranger can get an Ichor or some other T8 ammo summoning bow. <font color="#ff0000">WOODWORKERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE T8 AMMO PERIOD</font>.   But we can't.  When we make arrows we shouldn't have to struggle for 4 progress bars to only make 25 in one batch.  It's a waste of time and the cost/profit ratio is too high.  Buy em off the vendor.  Hell I know rangers lvl 70 t8 raiding rangers that buy TIN Arrows!  TIN for Christ sakes because they can't afford to use their summoned arrows in grps running through instances or afford t7 ammo from the vendor. <div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I know this is a rather late reply, but I just saw this and it really struck a nerve.</p><p>Woodworks SHOULD NOT be able to make T8 Ammo. First of all, you dont have access to any of the raws required. Second, you should have to wait til everyone else is in T8. Third, T8 Ammo summoning bows are a perk for what was, High End Game Raiding Rangers. Its not a need for every ranger more then its a want. End Game Raid Rangers could make the claim they need it to boost thier DPS, but they again, they are capable of killing the mobs in question to get that perk. Why the hell should crafters be able to negate the hard work of anyone thats put in the time and effort to get one such reward, to have it trivialized by solo or group rangers? They shouldnt have to.</p><p>Until they put in an EPIC woodworking tables, that come with knockbacks, tail swipes, mem wipes and AEs that you'd have to make adjustments for, getting just the right position on the table and where you have to suffer many many deaths, crafters should never be able to make anything on par with end game raid rewards. However, if they do put in the Epic WW Table, please invite me to your group so I can watch, or at the very least, FRAP it for the rest of us. Im sure then you might have a clear understanding of what its like to work your butt off for a great reward.</p><p>Okay now that Ive gotten that off my chest. There are many ways that they could improve the arrow usage. I believe most of them have all been mentioned, and all are great ideas. Crafters should have cheaper costs, more arrows per batch (both would be great starts) lowering the cost of arrows all the way around is another great idea. Upping the Arrow output on reclaimed, lowering the recast timer on it. All of them are great ideas, and all of them would have a slight impact on the costs... but would it really help? It wouldnt hurt any, and it would sting alot less, but lets face it, unless arrows are free, we'll still have to pay for them. It just wont sting as much.</p><p>And if they ever allowed for WWs to create specialty arrows, with a + to certain types of damage, who wouldnt be buying those instead? And then the cycle will start all over again. Because you know the newer arrows do more damage, you'd be tempted to buy those instead of the generic one.</p><hr></blockquote>Ok I can totally see your point.  It's just so frustrating to be near the bottom of the parse in a high end raiding guild doing everything that i can only to be at that bottom spot when i know with some t8 ammo i could be doing alot more damage.  Bazkul/Ichor has yet to drop for my guild in DT so we'll see what happens when it finally does.This whole SK's and other tank types should be able to bid on these bows is kinda crap imho.  I mean SOE made it so that they could use them but you can't tell me that you honestly believe that specific bow was really meant to go to a Tank.  Assasins....meh I could live with it but to give it to a tank is just greedy.  Yeah hes been in the guild the longest yeah he never bids on anything else because he's already ubered out with his class armor but what's more important bettering the DPS of the guild or getting a bow designed for a ranged class to a tank?I don't know what a good answer is but seeing as how rangers have no group buffs (I swear one Pathfinding comment....)or really any other type of help for a raid OTHER than straight DPS We should be parsing high.  Making T8 ammo available to WW's for making was an easy way out to help us as a whole but as I can see it was a bad idea.Would be nice if there was some bow that you didn't have to clear DT out for that makes t7.5 ammo =P</div>

[Superiorxgodz]

<DIV>I just read the original post and too lazy to read the 8 or so pages you guys have posted. Anyways, i raided steady for 3 months or more and never had a problem with reclaimed arrow adept 1. 10 min re use getting 30 arrows is nice. So constantly you need to be summoning arrows. If your always 24/7 grouped using your bow and never have down time to summon any. Buy Tin arrows that cost 1s per stack and your good to go for gorups, then when you raid use your good arrows. But i play alot and im nto always group and might tradeskill or use melee for a bit and jsut summon every 10 mins to fill up a bag so ill be rdy for raids.</DIV>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Superiorxgodz wrote:<div>I just read the original post and too lazy to read the 8 or so pages you guys have posted. <font color="#ff0000"><b>Anyways, i raided steady for 3 months or more and never had a problem with reclaimed arrow adept 1</b></font>.<b><u> <font color="#ffff00">10 min re use getting 30 arrows is nice</font></u></b>. So constantly you need to be summoning arrows. If your always 24/7 grouped using your bow and never have down time to summon any. <font color="#996600">Buy Tin arrows that cost 1s per stack and your good to go for gorups, then when you raid use your good arrows</font>. <font color="#ff00ff">But i play alot and im nto always group and might tradeskill or use melee for a bit and jsut summon every 10 mins to fill up a bag so ill be rdy for raids.</font></div><hr></blockquote>Your about to get chewed up BADLY, colour coding my reply so you can easilly read what I am replying to you about in each of your statements..<font color="#ff0000">You obviesly havent raided steady, or atleast only did AoAx4.. You CONSUME 32 arrows per minute with a shortbow, and 27 arrows per minute with alongbow. This comes to 320 arrows per the time it takes to summon your 30, or 270 with a longbow..  You are obviesly not playing your ranger to its fullest potential, and have little clue about the class.<font color="#ffff00">Adept 1 will alieviate 30 arrows, but you still have to buy 270 arrows every 10 minutes with a short bow.. This still comes out to be about 25g for 10 minutes of combat.. 10 mins, 30 arrows is not nice, hell if you use tripple shot and dont attack anything else to do an entire 2.4k damage to that mob you may find it fine.. And apparently by your own statements this is what your doing.<font color="#996600">Auto attack with adamantine arrows is 200-300 dps, with tin your looking at more like 5-50 dps tops.. Rangers cannot afford to slack on dps because we must maintain our dps with other classes like assassins, wizards, conjs, necros, brigs, swashy's etc.. These classes dont need to spend money on there class like rangers do, and just about every class listed can easilly outparse a ranger <i><u>on this stage of the game</u></i>.<font color="#ff00ff">You put out less as a class when you dont have the right arrows.. A rangers job is to dps, not fart around, not pick daisys at the  soccor game, not do utility, not be the kid who plays duck duck goose, and always says duck never goose, not the kid who runs into a mirror cause he thinks theres space.. Its DPS, if we actually had powerfull enough abilities that we could keep up melee none of us would be on this thread for god knows how many pages.. Seriously, I have a strong feeling your the kid who does the above..<font color="#ffffff">Seriously, being ignornat is one thing - you can always be educated.. But selling a load of it is something diffrent.. Start playing your ranger more agressively instead of just using snipers shot.</font></font></font></font></font></div>

[Dragonsword]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Superiorxgodz wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just read the original post and too lazy to read the 8 or so pages you guys have posted. Anyways, i raided steady for 3 months or more and never had a problem with reclaimed arrow adept 1. 10 min re use getting 30 arrows is nice. So constantly you need to be summoning arrows. If your always 24/7 grouped using your bow and never have down time to summon any. Buy Tin arrows that cost 1s per stack and your good to go for gorups, then when you raid use your good arrows. But i play alot and im nto always group and might tradeskill or use melee for a bit and jsut summon every 10 mins to fill up a bag so ill be rdy for raids.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Everbody likes a good joke this must be it? Hold on while I just use reclaimed arrows.</P> <P>Let me see I have reclaimed mastered, to fill up my quivers enough for 2 days raiding it would take me about 3 days to make the amount of arrows I use in 2 days. It costs me 4-5plat to buy that many arrows for 2 days, there is no point to buying less than admantine arrows unless you dont have enough coin, Ive parsed it, dropping even 1 tier will drop my DPS by about 25%. If it didnt take me  more than a full day of tradeskilling I would make my own arrows. There are 3 different kinds of tradeskilled arrows 1 for piercing, slashing and crushing in case you didnt already know. If you raid and use cheap arrows you are doing yourself and your raid a big dis-service. That includes using my melee arts constantly as well. And an auto attack, well if I actually get one in its because im either asleep, or being lazy. On the weekend each raiding session is usually 8+ hours * 2, do the math and there is no way, unless you did nothing but summon arrows all day everyday you would have enough.</P> <P>Hold on while I just use reclaimed arrows again.</P> <P>In the first 20 mins of Labs I would have gone through at least 300+ arrows, and that is on an easy run. I carry 2 quivers that hold 1584 arrows, thats 3168 arrows at the end of the day both of those are pretty much empty, or have been already filled again.</P> <P>I really dont think Reclaimed arrows should be increased to be fair on woodworkers ( yes im biased), I think that the amount of arrows you get when tradeskilling should be increased to either 50 or 100, as a woodworker I would be happy to sell my arrows cheaper than what they are priced at a merchant if that was the case as long as I was getting some return on them ( 1 gold / 100 t7 ammo) I dont think anyone would be complaining, any kind of ammo should be that cheap.</P> <P>Hold on while I just use reclaimed arrows.</P> <P>Any of the T7 Arrow summoning bows should be hard to get, I didnt do many raids till I hit 70 and my cost for arrows was nowhere near as high as it is now, so I didnt really need that kind of bow. Thats not a complaint, just the way it is.</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW I just need to Hold on while I just use reclaimed arrows.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Dragonsword20 on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>01:46 PM</span>

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arkturis wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nuladen wrote:<BR>Endless quiver doesn't make EQ2 suddenly turn into EQ1.  Just as SoW doesn't, or any number of the heritage quest items, or the cities fo Qeynos, Freeport or Kelethin. You Sir have a non-reason.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lets not forget nagafen, vox, crush, dvinn, and all the old zones in one way or another.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Theres a huge difference between lore and gameplay, sure its eq1 in the sense that the lore was based on eq1 but the gamplay the style its all different, in eq1 all you had was autoattack and a few spells/skills in eq2 you have autoattack and loads of skills. Now the reason why I went to eq2 is cause of the no need for endless quiver and crap like that I don't want to play eq1 I want something new to use instead of just taking eq1 and making better graphics, i want a game that will stand out not entirely eq1 but a small proportion of eq1. Now like i said if i wanted to play eq1 I would go log on eq1 but I want to play EQ2 so lets think of something new instead the same ol BS. The reason why I left eq1 is there is nothing new, the reason i came to eq2 is cause its all new except for the lore and the zones of course. I want something to change or it all becomes the same thing over.

[GrlGmr]

<P>I just got makeshift arrows Master II and summon 65 arrows every 10 minutes. With the AA, you can lower the time down almost in half, I think. Maybe more. Even with a 16 slot quiver, I've got arrows up to my eyeballs if I keep hitting the button when I'm doing stuff like exploring, crafting, or browsing the broker. I'm only level 30 though. We use 65 arrows in five minutes later on?</P> <P>My suggestion to fix the arrow thing would be to allow us to recover a percentage of arrows from the mob's corpse. Like say 50%, with maybe an AA to up the percentage.</P><p>Message Edited by GrlGmr on <span class=date_text>01-22-2007</span> <span class=time_text>04:38 PM</span>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>GrlGmr wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>I just got makeshift arrows Master II and summon 65 arrows every 10 minutes. With the AA, you can lower the time down almost in half, I think. Maybe more. Even with a 16 slot quiver, I've got arrows up to my eyeballs if I keep hitting the button when I'm doing stuff like exploring, crafting, or browsing the broker. I'm only level 30 though. We use 65 arrows in five minutes later on?</p> <p>My suggestion to fix the arrow thing would be to allow us to recover a percentage of arrows from the mob's corpse. Like say 50%, with maybe an AA to up the percentage.</p><p>Message Edited by GrlGmr on <span class="date_text">01-22-2007</span> <span class="time_text">04:38 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>By the time you are 70 you'll be running out of stuff to explore for any length of time, some of us don't craft and personally, my time spent browsing the broker is minimal.65 arrows in five minutes? and the rest I'm afraid.We already get the ability to rip/tear an arrow out of a mob, maybe this is the answer albeit not helping the woodworker situation any, allow us to rip a decent percentage/number back out and also allow it to rip out the same tier arrow as was fired in the first place, how I manage to rip Indium arrows out of a mob I've used Adamantine arrows to pincushion I'll never know.</div>

[GrlGmr]

<DIV>I remember way back when I played an Iksar in EQ1, I had a macro that mapped the forage button to the A or D key (I use WASD) so I wouldn't keep forgetting to hit it. I assume it possible to map the makeshift arrows button to the same key in EQ2? That way every time you move and the button is up you summon arrows automatically.</DIV>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>GrlGmr wrote:<div>I remember way back when I played an Iksar in EQ1, I had a macro that mapped the forage button to the A or D key (I use WASD) so I wouldn't keep forgetting to hit it. I assume it possible to map the makeshift arrows button to the same key in EQ2? That way every time you move and the button is up you summon arrows automatically.</div><hr></blockquote>Totally possible, and I believe people do just that, but the simple fact remains that even used everytime available it isn't enough, and that doing as suggested is likely to kill you quite a bit if you like to run through agro mobs stealthed.</div>

[Axor]

<DIV>the problem is that when you log in raid logout .. log in raid logout. You spend more arrows than you can sumon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats the base problem.</DIV>

[tekni]

About what level does arrow cost generally start to become a problem?

[BigChiefJJ]

<DIV> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>I have never bought arrows so arrow cost has not been a problem to me personally; however I spend a lot of time exploring, harvesting and have always had master lvl summoning arrows spells that were able to keep up with my play style.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I have a 22 slot quiver that I keep full and continuously summon arrows.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I also make sure I have an overflow of arrows in my inventory boxes and my bank boxes. I have found that arrow consumption has dramatically increased in T6 & T7.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The run through AoAx2 for the claymore quest update last night used 1884 arrows.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>I can see if I did that every night I would have to buy arrows quite frequently.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Making them myself is not time effective even though I’m a woodworker.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>I found more importantly that once I hit lvl 50 I started seeing reduced damage from my auto-attacks because I was using summoned fulginate arrows instead of indium.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This problem went away when I was able to start using T7 arrows at lvl 62.<SPAN>  </SPAN>So if you really want the max damage that you can do I think your going to see a problem starting when you move into T6. And if you don’t have “down time” between groups to summon arrows you will either have to buy the expensive ones to live up to your potential DPS or save money buy the cheaper ones and take the DPS hit.</FONT></P></DIV>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>GrlGmr wrote:<div>I remember way back when I played an Iksar in EQ1, I had a macro that mapped the forage button to the A or D key (I use WASD) so I wouldn't keep forgetting to hit it. I assume it possible to map the makeshift arrows button to the same key in EQ2? That way every time you move and the button is up you summon arrows automatically.</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah and then when you are invis in an area of heroic mobs, you will break invis and summon arrows<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Dead FTW!Better is to tie the summon to an alarm that pops up on the screen.This is what I use/usea Reclaimed Arrows/r_alarm_sess_dur_minutes 11.0/alarm_restart_sess_dur_alarmThis will pop up an alarm when my reclaimed has refreshed. I hit reclaim and click OK on the alarm to reset it.</div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>tekniko wrote:About what level does arrow cost generally start to become a problem?<hr></blockquote>Once you get Stream Of Arrows you find your arrow usage jumps through the roof. When you add in the AA lines that reduce casting and give multishot etc. you are using approx 1 arrow per second during each fight. If you assume 1 arrow/sec and 50% downtime, then in any 10 minute period that is 5 minutes * 60 = 300 arrows. In this time, you can harvest 65 arrows if you have a Master II. Most people would have the AD3 or M1 though as the last thing you need is to sacrifice a useful Master II DPS spell to replace it with arrow gathering <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'd hate to think what the situation was if your downtime is less than 50%...So unless you spend a lot of time doing other stuff like questing/chatting/crafting then you very quickly run out of gathered arrows.If you're a frequent raider then you've no option but to end up spending a lot of plat either making arrows (takes a lot of time too!!) or on vendor arrows instead.My Ranger is a lvl 70 WW and there is no way I'll bother making arrows for myself, it just takes too much time. For a typical raid I would need 2,000 arrows to be sure I didnt run out. This takes anything from 80-100 combines depending on RNG. If I allow 90 seconds per combine, this gives anything from 2 hours to 2.5 hours. My costs to make each arrow is maybe 1s less than buying on broker, which give me a saving of about 20 GP. I don't know about you, but I can earn way more than 20 GP in 2.5 hours. Even harvesting tier 3 rares in Thundering Steppes will generate more than 20GP for 2.5 hours work and it's a lot more interesting than crafting arrows !The thing that really annoys me about all this though is that SOE can't see it's a serious issue, or if they do, they don't care about it enough to fix it. I guess not enough people play Rangers (mmm, I wonder why that could be ?)</div><p>Message Edited by EQ2Magroo on <span class=date_text>01-26-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 AM</span>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>EQ2Magroo wrote:<div>The thing that really annoys me about all this though is that SOE can't see it's a serious issue, or if they do, they don't care about it enough to fix it. I guess not enough people play Rangers (mmm, I wonder why that could be ?)</div><hr></blockquote>Actually if you read back through this thread there is a dev response saying that they are aware of it, that said it'd be nice if even as a temporary fix they increased the amount of arrows aquired by the reclaimed arrow line.</div>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nuladen wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>EQ2Magroo wrote:<div>The thing that really annoys me about all this though is that SOE can't see it's a serious issue, or if they do, they don't care about it enough to fix it. I guess not enough people play Rangers (mmm, I wonder why that could be ?)</div><hr></blockquote>Actually if you read back through this thread there is a dev response saying that they are aware of it, that said it'd be nice if even as a temporary fix they increased the amount of arrows aquired by the reclaimed arrow line.</div><hr></blockquote>Yep i remember that statement and the scary thing is they did fix it ( at least in their minds) - they gave us AA points to waste to fix a broken game mechanic instead of getting a real fix. I doubt we will ever see another fix because in their minds the AA is a perfectly acceptable solution to our arrow woes.Scary stuff.</div>

[Nulad]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Rothgar1 wrote:We hear you loud and clear on the arrow issue.  I've been playing a ranger myself since the beginning of EQ2 and raid about 4 times a week.  Arrow consumption is a problem that I experience almost every time I play.  Everyone has made some great points and I just wanted to let you know that we're listening.  As soon as I can come back with more news, this forum will be the first to know.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Posted: <span><span class="date_text">01-09-2007</span><span class="time_text">01:45 AMSo you must have seen a different post as EoF AA's were in well before that.</span></span></div>

[EQ2Magroo]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nuladen wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>EQ2Magroo wrote:<div>The thing that really annoys me about all this though is that SOE can't see it's a serious issue, or if they do, they don't care about it enough to fix it. I guess not enough people play Rangers (mmm, I wonder why that could be ?)</div><hr></blockquote>Actually if you read back through this thread there is a dev response saying that they are aware of it, that said it'd be nice if even as a temporary fix they increased the amount of arrows aquired by the reclaimed arrow line.</div><hr></blockquote>Please don't take this the wrong way, but the old saying "talk is cheap" comes to mind. When I actually see something concrete from the devs I'll stop badgering people about this issue.Let's face it, if it was any other class talking about losing 1-2PP per raid on top of whatever their repair bills were, something would have been done by now.I just don't see why they haven't even implemented a short term solution of increasing arrow gathering to 99 ? That would a simple change to the spell, no need to worry about code changes (anything more than 99 may need code rewrites I guess to handle multiple stacks being filled each gather). Sure it would annoy people who had spent money on AD3 or M1 spells, but I'm sure they'd understand that it was a temporary fix whilst the whole arrow issue was looked at. It's not like we've just started using arrows, it's been like this for 2 years now. Come on SOE, show us some Ranger love !</div>

[Nulad]

<div><blockquote><hr>EQ2Magroo wrote:<div>Please don't take this the wrong way, but the old saying "talk is cheap" comes to mind. When I actually see something concrete from the devs I'll stop badgering people about this issue.Let's face it, if it was any other class talking about losing 1-2PP per raid on top of whatever their repair bills were, something would have been done by now.I just don't see why they haven't even implemented a short term solution of increasing arrow gathering to 99 ? That would a simple change to the spell, no need to worry about code changes (anything more than 99 may need code rewrites I guess to handle multiple stacks being filled each gather). Sure it would annoy people who had spent money on AD3 or M1 spells, but I'm sure they'd understand that it was a temporary fix whilst the whole arrow issue was looked at. It's not like we've just started using arrows, it's been like this for 2 years now. Come on SOE, show us some Ranger love !</div><hr></blockquote>I agree talk is cheap, but they have at least acknowledged the issue.Your second point is pure assumption and has absolutely no basis in fact, how could it, no other class has been affaected by such.Already said so myself, I wonder if and when the fix goes live we should start a mass movement to reclaim costs incurred <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>Already said so myself, I wonder if and when the fix goes live we should start a mass movement to reclaim costs incurred <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>yeah, good luck with that lol, they barely wanna fix our arrow situation why would they wanna fix the money in our pockets? thatll take them another 2 or 3 years<BR>

[Nulad]

For those that didn't get it, the <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> signified I was joking.<div></div>

[Gnome mercy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nuladen wrote:<BR>For those that didn't get it, the <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> signified I was joking.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I got that I was just being sarcastic

[RagingWolf]

<DIV>Arrow really aren't that bad, guilds can help cause they have crafters that can help you out or you can get the ranger aa that helps you with summoning more arrows more frequently.  Always keep some on stock, and alternate your attacks melee and ranged, otherwise you will go threw arrows  fast.  I keep about 4000 arrows on me at all times, none of which I have paid for. I always summon ever chance I get. </DIV> <DIV>~Ragingwolf</DIV> <DIV>70 Ranger</DIV> <DIV>Oasis server</DIV>

[Badaxe Ba]

<P>RagingWolf wrote</P> <P></P> <HR> <DIV>Arrow really aren't that bad, guilds can help cause they have crafters that can help you out or you can get the ranger aa that helps you with summoning more arrows more frequently.  Always keep some on stock, and alternate your attacks melee and ranged, otherwise you will go threw arrows  fast.  I keep about 4000 arrows on me at all times, none of which I have paid for. I always summon ever chance I get.</DIV> <DIV>~Ragingwolf</DIV> <DIV>70 Ranger</DIV> <DIV>Oasis server</DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P>I understand that you are your own guild leader, well the majority of us don't have that advantage.  I have spent almost 100 plat since hitting 70, on arrows alone.  It must be nice to not have to spend your own money.  It must be nice to have crafters 'give' you what you need.  I wonder just how many posts you read on this thread?  You do understand that you have a unique and enviable position if you can use 1-2k arrows per night and never have to pay for them.  As to the AA ability to increase the timer on summoning arrows?  I'm not wasting any AA points there as the benefit just doesn't overcome the deficiency.  And also, realize that not every ranger can just go out and buy the M1 of summoning arrows.  I haven't even seen it on my server broker.  Not that I could afford it, as t7 ranger masters start at 15pp on Venekor. </P>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2">Master I Makeshift Arrows here.  Also a woodworker.  Also a guild leader.There is no way in the world I am going to ask my guild to provide my arrows.  It is an inefficient use of funds.  Take the plat that it would cost in a month to supply my arrows, and you could have purchased a master or two for other dps classes, thus providing MORE dps to EVERY raid.Crafting arrows = grossly inefficient method to maintain arrow supply, considering that JUST the fuel to craft a stack of 100 costs only a few silver less than vendor sold arrows.  As a woodworker, you're better off crafting totems, selling them, and using the money gained to purchase arrows...and are still stuck with the same problem...having to purchase arrows in the first place.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>01-29-2007</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 PM</span>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>RagingWolf wrote:<div>Arrow really aren't that bad, guilds can help cause they have crafters that can help you out or you can get the ranger aa that helps you with summoning more arrows more frequently.  Always keep some on stock, and alternate your attacks melee and ranged, otherwise you will go threw arrows  fast.  I keep about 4000 arrows on me at all times, none of which I have paid for. I always summon ever chance I get. </div> <div>~Ragingwolf</div> <div>70 Ranger</div> <div>Oasis server</div><hr></blockquote>You got to be kidding me right? Did you read the thread? This is the biggest pile of dog poo response I ahve ever seen. This is why the devs dont fix us b/c a ranger that does not understand the problem comes and says "meh, I dont have an arrow problem" Then we find out he crafts all the time and never raids and only groups occasionally.Read the thread! If you group or raid all the time and don't have down time (harvest, craft, explore) you are always running a deficit. 4000 arrows is nothing. I go through those in 2 hours. What then?!</div>

[Teksun]

- no other class has to spend money/time/cheat to use their CA's- no other class has to sit around for HOURS crafting/harvesting/decorating their house to prepare for raids- few classes (all scouts) have to spend money to increase their DPS (poisons)I am tired of not being able to buy master spells. I'm tired of not being able to buy a horse. I'm tired of not being able to load up the game and play. I'm tired of being out DPS'd by support classes. I'm tired of being out DPS'd by tanks. I'm tired of Sony not doing anything to give us any help.I am not retiring my Ranger. I love playing him. I AM leveling up a Necro, maybe then I'll be able to afford to play my Ranger <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />