DPS?

[Colbie]

<DIV>I noticed in a few threads here in these forums, and a few threads in [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] where people are still stating taht rangers are under powered. Is everyone noticing this? I am on the side that says Rangers are sitting WELL right now. Our main ranger Silvanthalanas is TOP parser90% of the raid. any thought?</DIV>

[TheStormrider]

<P>It varies.  Its mostly gear and which group the ranger is in.  DPS/Haste group = higher dps than dps group (mages).</P> <P>I have seen this alot lately which sums it up.</P> <P>/60-69] Teyxas Ran'jah: 70 Sarnak/ichorstrand LFG. for instances.</P> <P> </P>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Colbie wrote:<div>I noticed in a few threads here in these forums, and a few threads in [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] where people are still stating taht rangers are under powered. Is everyone noticing this? I am on the side that says Rangers are sitting WELL right now. Our main ranger Silvanthalanas is TOP parser90% of the raid. any thought?</div><hr></blockquote>It depends on what is top? If your Ranger is parsing 900-1200 and it on top the rest of your DPS is slacking. And, you are in a situation where your Ranger has the best gear, the best group set-up at the expense of everyone else, or is a min/maxer. The facts:Rangers are fine solo,group, and casual raid settings.Rangers are not fine in high end raiding guilds until they get T8 ammo and a 100+ DR bow. But this is only about 1% of rangers.If you enjoy the class - enjoy it<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[LoreLady]

I think you need to get all your aa's then test things out before making remarks - or atleast doing the math on abilities compared to our counterpart anyways <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Mirdo]

Had a few raids recently where our group was Ranger, Zerker, Dirge, Coercer, Inquis and monk. DPS was...not bad<span> for the 3 melee smileywink:Maybe not the most efficient use of resources but fun to do in a farm zone and when a few are missing.Mirdo.</span><div></div>

[Colbie]

<DIV>Yeah I think I agree with everyone here...it's end game content and of course SOME help in groups. When I say TOP DPS, i'm talking in EoF raid zones he's parsing 1600-2k and I've seen him parse about 2500 in on some trash. He's smoking. Due to my lack of absence over the last few months I'm not equipped as well as he is but I'm still hitting on avg of 1300 and up to 1600 sometimes. I just was wondering if maybe Silv and I are just setting our toons up right or what was going on...was pretty confused after reading the som of the messages.</DIV>

[Teksun]

I have gotten as high as 1800DPS (No t8 ammo) and will never complain about that. My damage is fine. I still almost always rank 3rd.<div></div>

[Mono]

<P>Well having got new aa's and filled the multishot line and also bumped up my poison i'm very happy with my ranger. I can dps with the rest of the them now not always top as out other rangers pretty handy but apart from the necro with Lifeburn you'll normally see me and the other ranger in top3. </P> <P>Seems our new aa's rock imo. I grab aggro like i've never have before although thats not a good thing i can still parse well and with new encounters am enjoying my ranger more.. I just wish the bow drop rate wasn't so nerfed i see two handers and mage crap drop all the time stuff we have and can't do anything with.</P>

[Mirdo]

I'm finding I have to concentrate more on de-agro now than ever before.  I seem to have shifted from working very hard to get decent dps to working reasonably hard to de-agro.Mirdo.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

Do what I do - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at the tank if you take agro, 41% deagro should be enough. Ive always been the ranger who takes agro over everyone else lol - so its nothing new for me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Balerius]

<DIV>A well-played and equipped assassin, swashy, or brigand will just about always out-dps an equally well-played and equipped ranger in a high-end raid situation where each is in a raid group configured to maximize the dps of each of the four classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But even if you believe that rangers are more or less equal in dps to any of the above other classes, the fact is that each of those classes brings much more than dps to the raid while a ranger brings nothing except dps to the raid.  So if push comes to shove, which class will make room for the other in a high-end raid should raid slots be at a premium?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devs should understand that rangers are not "balanced" if they simply achieve occasional dps parity with other classes.  Given our complete lack of raid utility, we will only truly be balanced at the high end if our dps is consistently and significantly superior to the other classes.  That clearly isn't the case presently.</DIV>

[dancer]

<DIV>yea im with the "if you think rangers are fine your on crack" crowd.  Sorry but 2500 dps? is that on a heroic mob after firing off sniper shot?  Cause best ive seen myself do is in the 1500-1600 range, course might be able to get that up a bit on a short ae fight.  Consistantly im in the top 5 but never the top 3 unless someone else is slacking.  Both guild assassins blow me away not just by a smidgen, as does both our necromancers..and i battle w/ the wizzies.   We're not talkin burst dmg, we're talkin raid dps, damage over time.  Burst dmg sure we can put out some impressive numbers, but if the mob isnt heroic.. its gonna take more than one cycle through the ca's.  Oh and i have all master but 2, and those 2 are elude and stream of arrows..    Although if ya put the mages and assassins in [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty groups, stuck me with a bard and a conjuror, and put them back in crafted.. id probably parse equal or better /sarcasm</DIV>

[Caliga]

While its not as bad as when we first got nerfed we still aren't on par with some of the other classes.  I don't need stats to prove that, just need alts.  I wonder if the Mystics complain as much as we do.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Balerius wrote:<div></div> <div><b>A well-played and equipped assassin, swashy, or brigand will just about always out-dps an equally well-played and equipped ranger in a high-end raid situation where each is in a raid group configured to maximize the dps of each of the four classes.</b></div> <div> </div> <div>But even if you believe that rangers are more or less equal in dps to any of the above other classes, the fact is that each of those classes brings much more than dps to the raid while a ranger brings nothing except dps to the raid.  So if push comes to shove, which class will make room for the other in a high-end raid should raid slots be at a premium?</div> <div> </div> <div>Devs should understand that rangers are not "balanced" if they simply achieve occasional dps parity with other classes.  Given our complete lack of raid utility, we will only truly be balanced at the high end if our dps is consistently and significantly superior to the other classes.  That clearly isn't the case presently.</div><hr></blockquote>Balerius your one of the brighest people I know on the fourms, but I have to disagree with you.. Bolding the big hitter in your sentance on what im going on about. <font color="#ff0000">A 50 aa'd assassin/rouge can out dps us, a 100 aa'd ranger will kick every assassins/rouges [Removed for Content] without t8 ammo.. WITH t8 ammo, rangers are above every class but say wizards. Assassins are kinda watered down with there aa's, rangers get a nice and much needed boost.. Now before I hear NERF RANGERS - getting t8 ammo and a high end bow  to go with it requires that you have two of the RAREST items in the game, I farmed DT for afew months no bow - after my break theres still others who have farmed dt for months on end.. No bows... It is much easier for an assassin to get adornments+ decent duel weilds than it is for a ranger to get t8 ammo + a good bow.. Its not unfair, its just time/reward.<font color="#ffff00">Before I hear people going on how I am not 100 aa'd myself, I am able to look at something I already know and know what its supost to be.. It hasent failed me yet, its just the way things are..  I am not trying to sound conceited, but its just that I have looked at the AA lines for the dps classes, and have gotten idea how much dps boost it will give and how much ours will give.. </font></font></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>12-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <DIV><B>A well-played and equipped assassin, swashy, or brigand will just about always out-dps an equally well-played and equipped ranger in a high-end raid situation where each is in a raid group configured to maximize the dps of each of the four classes.</B></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But even if you believe that rangers are more or less equal in dps to any of the above other classes, the fact is that each of those classes brings much more than dps to the raid while a ranger brings nothing except dps to the raid.  So if push comes to shove, which class will make room for the other in a high-end raid should raid slots be at a premium?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devs should understand that rangers are not "balanced" if they simply achieve occasional dps parity with other classes.  Given our complete lack of raid utility, we will only truly be balanced at the high end if our dps is consistently and significantly superior to the other classes.  That clearly isn't the case presently.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Balerius your one of the brighest people I know on the fourms, but I have to disagree with you.. Bolding the big hitter in your sentance on what im going on about. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>A 50 aa'd assassin/rouge can out dps us, a 100 aa'd ranger will kick every assassins/rouges [Removed for Content] without t8 ammo.. WITH t8 ammo, rangers are above every class but say wizards. Assassins are kinda watered down with there aa's, rangers get a nice and much needed boost.. <BR><BR>Now before I hear NERF RANGERS - getting t8 ammo and a high end bow  to go with it requires that you have two of the RAREST items in the game, I farmed DT for afew months no bow - after my break theres still others who have farmed dt for months on end.. No bows... It is much easier for an assassin to get adornments+ decent duel weilds than it is for a ranger to get t8 ammo + a good bow.. Its not unfair, its just time/reward.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Before I hear people going on how I am not 100 aa'd myself, I am able to look at something I already know and know what its supost to be.. It hasent failed me yet, its just the way things are..  I am not trying to sound conceited, but its just that I have looked at the AA lines for the dps classes, and have gotten idea how much dps boost it will give and how much ours will give.. </FONT><BR></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by LoreLady on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:25 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't see where you come to the conclusions that you have....</P> <P>Prior to EOF, assassins were overwhelmingly superior in dps to rangers and rogues were generally superior.  With EOF:</P> <P>1.  Adornments:  Any adornment available to rangers is also available to assassins and rogues.  However, given the poor bow adornment choices, a weapon we use far more than assassins and rogues, assassins and rogues will get more dps benefit from adornments on melee weapons.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</P> <P>2.  Equipment:  Pretty much a wash so far...except that equipment still drops that has effects only for melee attacks and not ranged attacks.  Given our greater use of ranged attacks, assassins/rogues will get more benefit from the equipment we've seen drop thus far.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</P> <P>3.  Weapons:  So far, AFAIK there have not been any wildly superior weapons dropped for any class.  That includes bows.  Advantage:  None</P> <P>4.  Buffs/Procs:  No real change with EOF.  The imbalance caused by most buffs/procs only working with melee attacks has not changed.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</P> <P>5.  Deities:  Assassins and rogues (if evil) have rallos zek and innouruk available.  We have Marr and Tunare.  The evil god benefits to dps are clear.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</P> <P>So, given just the above categories, thus far assassins/rogues get more dps boost from EOF than rangers.  For you to believe that in the end rangers will be far superior in dps than assassins/rogues, you would have to believe that ranger AAs are so overwhelmingly superior to those available to assassins and rogues that the difference would not only make up for our pre-EOF dps inferiority, but also make up for our disadvantages in the above 5 categories <STRONG><EM><U>and</U></EM></STRONG> have a further dps advantage such that we are left the clear dps leaders.</P> <P>Sorry, but when I look at the AAs of the four classes I don't see that overwhelming advantage in ranger AAs.  Ours are ok.  But assassin/rogue AAs aren't all that bad.  And ours certainly aren't so great as to move us from a Pre-EOF inferior dps position to a post-EOF clear dps lead, especially given what we've seen in what I outlined in 1-5 above.</P><p>Message Edited by Balerius on <span class=date_text>12-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:55 PM</span>

[dancer]

too bad ive come to the conclusion devs dont hvae the time to read our forums, cause the above post is a pretty logical view of things ^^

[EomerFarst]

I have 66 AA's so far. 4/4/4/8 Strength, 4/4/5/8 Agility and 4/3/4/5 Multishot(all apart from Stream). My armor is all relic apart from boots and I have 78% haster unbuffed. With Raincaller and T8 ammo I was parsing around 1500 in the Labs without really trying. That was only ranged CA's.

[Mirdo]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div></div>Do what I do - [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at the tank if you take agro, 41% deagro should be enough. Ive always been the ranger who takes agro over everyone else lol - so its nothing new for me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I only ever used to do that with a completely optimal group set up. Our guild is a 20k+ dps guild and the tanks agro has been rock solid to all but the Brigs and Warlocks in certain situations up til now (that's all KoS instances and the odd contested we could pick up).41% de-agro is not enough if you are climbing the AA tree quickly and getting your gear adorned. Mirdo.</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><blockquote><hr> </blockquote> <p>I don't see where you come to the conclusions that you have....</p> <p>Prior to EOF, assassins were overwhelmingly superior in dps to rangers and rogues were generally superior.  With EOF:</p> <p>1.  Adornments:  Any adornment available to rangers is also available to assassins and rogues.  However, given the poor bow adornment choices, a weapon we use far more than assassins and rogues, assassins and rogues will get more dps benefit from adornments on melee weapons.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</p> <p>2.  Equipment:  Pretty much a wash so far...except that equipment still drops that has effects only for melee attacks and not ranged attacks.  Given our greater use of ranged attacks, assassins/rogues will get more benefit from the equipment we've seen drop thus far.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</p> <p>3.  Weapons:  So far, AFAIK there have not been any wildly superior weapons dropped for any class.  That includes bows.  Advantage:  None</p> <p>4.  Buffs/Procs:  No real change with EOF.  The imbalance caused by most buffs/procs only working with melee attacks has not changed.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</p> <p>5.  Deities:  Assassins and rogues (if evil) have rallos zek and innouruk available.  We have Marr and Tunare.  The evil god benefits to dps are clear.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</p> <p>So, given just the above categories, thus far assassins/rogues get more dps boost from EOF than rangers.  For you to believe that in the end rangers will be far superior in dps than assassins/rogues, you would have to believe that ranger AAs are so overwhelmingly superior to those available to assassins and rogues that the difference would not only make up for our pre-EOF dps inferiority, but also make up for our disadvantages in the above 5 categories <strong><em><u>and</u></em></strong> have a further dps advantage such that we are left the clear dps leaders.</p> <p>Sorry, but when I look at the AAs of the four classes I don't see that overwhelming advantage in ranger AAs.  Ours are ok.  But assassin/rogue AAs aren't all that bad.  And ours certainly aren't so great as to move us from a Pre-EOF inferior dps position to a post-EOF clear dps lead, especially given what we've seen in what I outlined in 1-5 above.</p><p>Message Edited by Balerius on <span class="date_text">12-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:55 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I had anumber of parsings with t8 ammo with diffrent people, and rest assured the damage diffrence is about 250-300 dps.. I have done the post "rangers vs assassins" earlier, and was able to look at what was missing and where we are falling short in KoS.. With CA's all abilities that need a boost got a boost in the EoF AA system to be onpar with assassins and then some.So, if CA's are now ballanced what do we do with this extra 250-300 dps through t8 ammo? We cant have rangers having everything everyone else gets, or we are still 250-300 dps above everyone else.. We cant nerf our CA's otherwise that brings down the point of the game.. We change the system so that we accomidate this t8 ammo, while itemizing the game so that we dont overpower other classes.</div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't see where you come to the conclusions that you have....</P> <P>Prior to EOF, assassins were overwhelmingly superior in dps to rangers and rogues were generally superior.  With EOF:</P> <P>1.  Adornments:  Any adornment available to rangers is also available to assassins and rogues.  However, given the poor bow adornment choices, a weapon we use far more than assassins and rogues, assassins and rogues will get more dps benefit from adornments on melee weapons.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</P> <P>2.  Equipment:  Pretty much a wash so far...except that equipment still drops that has effects only for melee attacks and not ranged attacks.  Given our greater use of ranged attacks, assassins/rogues will get more benefit from the equipment we've seen drop thus far.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</P> <P>3.  Weapons:  So far, AFAIK there have not been any wildly superior weapons dropped for any class.  That includes bows.  Advantage:  None</P> <P>4.  Buffs/Procs:  No real change with EOF.  The imbalance caused by most buffs/procs only working with melee attacks has not changed.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</P> <P>5.  Deities:  Assassins and rogues (if evil) have rallos zek and innouruk available.  We have Marr and Tunare.  The evil god benefits to dps are clear.  Advantage:  Assassins/Rogues</P> <P>So, given just the above categories, thus far assassins/rogues get more dps boost from EOF than rangers.  For you to believe that in the end rangers will be far superior in dps than assassins/rogues, you would have to believe that ranger AAs are so overwhelmingly superior to those available to assassins and rogues that the difference would not only make up for our pre-EOF dps inferiority, but also make up for our disadvantages in the above 5 categories <STRONG><EM><U>and</U></EM></STRONG> have a further dps advantage such that we are left the clear dps leaders.</P> <P>Sorry, but when I look at the AAs of the four classes I don't see that overwhelming advantage in ranger AAs.  Ours are ok.  But assassin/rogue AAs aren't all that bad.  And ours certainly aren't so great as to move us from a Pre-EOF inferior dps position to a post-EOF clear dps lead, especially given what we've seen in what I outlined in 1-5 above.</P> <P>Message Edited by Balerius on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:55 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I had anumber of parsings with t8 ammo with diffrent people, and rest assured the damage diffrence is about 250-300 dps.. I have done the post "rangers vs assassins" earlier, and was able to look at what was missing and where we are falling short in KoS.. With CA's all abilities that need a boost got a boost in the EoF AA system to be onpar with assassins and then some.<BR><BR>So, if CA's are now ballanced what do we do with this extra 250-300 dps through t8 ammo? We cant have rangers having everything everyone else gets, or we are still 250-300 dps above everyone else.. We cant nerf our CA's otherwise that brings down the point of the game.. We change the system so that we accomidate this t8 ammo, while itemizing the game so that we dont overpower other classes.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not sure that you actually read what I posted above; your response appears to ignore them.  In any event:</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>"I had anumber of parsings with t8 ammo with diffrent people, and rest assured the damage diffrence is about 250-300 dps.. "<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT>  </FONT>I've had a Bazkul and Sarnak bow for close to 6 months; I'm well aware of what they can and cannot do for our dps.   "<FONT color=#ffff00>... I have done the post "rangers vs assassins" earlier, and was able to look at what was missing and where we are falling short in KoS.."</FONT>   And I've never fully agreed with your entire focus on CAs during KoS... yes our CAs needed improvement, but there were many other areas where ranger dps shortfalls could be traced...such as buffs, procs, and itemization.  "<FONT color=#ffff00>With CA's all abilities that need a boost got a boost in the EoF AA system to be onpar with assassins and then some."</FONT>    So EOF AAS have "fixed" the ranger CAs that you were so concerned about in KoS.  Fine.  Just what do you think Assassin/Rogue AAs have done....nothing to theirs?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>"So, if CA's are now ballanced what do we do with this extra 250-300 dps through t8 ammo?"</FONT>  Ranger CAs, to the extent they are "balanced" to Assassin/Rogue CAs, have been balanced to Assassin/Rogue CAs as they were KoS...meanwhile EoF has brought improvements to Assassin/Rogue CAs beyond where they were in KoS.  What's so hard to grasp about that?  "<FONT color=#ffff00>We cant have rangers having everything everyone else gets, or we are still 250-300 dps above everyone else.."</FONT>    We were 250-300 dps behind Assassins in KoS...even with t8 ammo.  Now you bring our CAs up to par with theirs as they were in KoS through AAs while theirs move ahead in EoF through AAs and you continue to have an imbalance in itemization, adornments, buffs/procs in EoF...how do you imagine that we are somehow "250-300 dps above everyone else"?   "<FONT color=#ffff00>We cant nerf our CA's otherwise that brings down the point of the game.. We change the system so that we accomidate this t8 ammo, while itemizing the game so that we dont overpower other classes"</FONT>    And I have no idea what you're trying to say here.</P> <P>I am <STRONG><EM><U>not</U></EM></STRONG> a "doom and gloom" ranger.  I do good dps.  The issue in my mind has always been that we bring zero utility to a raid to go with the dps that we have.  We have the least raid utility of <STRONG><U>any</U></STRONG> class in the game.  Given that we only bring dps to a raid, unless our dps is <U>substantially superior</U> to every other class in the game, there is no compelling reason why any high-end raid/raid guild would want a ranger when they can have an assassin with their continued dps superiority to rangers and some utility or a rogue with equal dps to rangers and significant raid utility.  We need not have major changes to our all of CAs to significantly increase our dps...we just need corrections made to the imbalance in buffs/procs, itemization, and AA tweaks.<BR></P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I'm not sure that you actually read what I posted above; your response appears to ignore them.  In any event:<font color="#ff0000"> I did read what you said twice before you posted,  I am just no good at communicating my thoughts lol <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ff0000">Snipped because its just statements saying your disagreeing.</font></p><p>  "<font color="#ffff00">With CA's all abilities that need a boost got a boost in the EoF AA system to be onpar with assassins and then some."</font>    So EOF AAS have "fixed" the ranger CAs that you were so concerned about in KoS.  Fine.  Just what do you think Assassin/Rogue AAs have done....nothing to theirs? <font color="#ff0000">Assassins have had duration reduction and straight damage boosts to there dots.. Rangers have had cast time reductions, as well as damage boosts.. They ballance out in the end.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">"So, if CA's are now ballanced what do we do with this extra 250-300 dps through t8 ammo?"</font>  Ranger CAs, to the extent they are "balanced" to Assassin/Rogue CAs, have been balanced to Assassin/Rogue CAs as they were KoS...meanwhile EoF has brought improvements to Assassin/Rogue CAs beyond where they were in KoS.  What's so hard to grasp about that?  <font color="#ff0000"></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">This is going to go back and forth for abit, so I am going to try and put this into a diffrent way..</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">50aa'd rouge/ranger/assassin - rouge/assassin are ontop</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">50aa'd ranger with t8 ammo, - kos ballanced</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000">100 aa'd ranger/assassin/rouge - ranger/assassin are ontop, rouges below.</font></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000">100 aa'd ranger/assassin/rouge - ranger doesnt have t8 ammo, assassin/rouge/ranger all have adornments - assassin/rouge are ontop</font></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">100 aa Ranger with t8 ammo, assassin/rouge with adornments - Ranger slightly ontop of assassin, rouges down below.</font></p><p></p><p><font color="#ff0000"></font></p><p></p><p>"<font color="#ffff00">We cant have rangers having everything everyone else gets, or we are still 250-300 dps above everyone else.."</font>    We were 250-300 dps behind Assassins in KoS...even with t8 ammo.  Now you bring our CAs up to par with theirs as they were in KoS through AAs while theirs move ahead in EoF through AAs and you continue to have an imbalance in itemization, adornments, buffs/procs in EoF...how do you imagine that we are somehow "250-300 dps above everyone else"?  <font color="#ff0000">-Above statement.</font></p><p></p><p> "<font color="#ffff00">We cant nerf our CA's otherwise that brings down the point of the game.. We change the system so that we accomidate this t8 ammo, while itemizing the game so that we dont overpower other classes"</font>    And I have no idea what you're trying to say here.<font color="#ff0000">I am saying that once we cap out our aa's we will be slightly ahead of assassins, when we have all our t8ammo/100aa's/adornments.</font></p> <p>I am <strong><em><u>not</u></em></strong> a "doom and gloom" ranger.  I do good dps.  The issue in my mind has always been that we bring zero utility to a raid to go with the dps that we have.  We have the least raid utility of <strong><u>any</u></strong> class in the game.  Given that we only bring dps to a raid, unless our dps is <u>substantially superior</u> to every other class in the game, there is no compelling reason why any high-end raid/raid guild would want a ranger when they can have an assassin with their continued dps superiority to rangers and some utility or a rogue with equal dps to rangers and significant raid utility.  We need not have major changes to our all of CAs to significantly increase our dps...we just need corrections made to the imbalance in buffs/procs, itemization, and AA tweaks.</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">Never said you were a doom and gloom ranger or indicated that.. I firmly believe that EoF should have brought in a t8 ammo quest that <u><b>ONLY</b></u> rangers could use, that is my only problem with the way things are done in this expansion.. Other than that, its fine.</font></div>

[Balerius]

<P></P> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000>This is going to go back and forth for abit, so I am going to try and put this into a diffrent way..</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>50aa'd rouge/ranger/assassin - rouge/assassin are ontop</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG><EM>50aa'd ranger with t8 ammo, - kos ballanced</EM></STRONG></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ff0000>100 aa'd ranger/assassin/rouge - ranger/assassin are ontop, rouges below.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ff0000>100 aa'd ranger/assassin/rouge - ranger doesnt have t8 ammo, assassin/rouge/ranger all have adornments - assassin/rouge are ontop</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>100 aa Ranger with t8 ammo, assassin/rouge with adornments - Ranger slightly ontop of assassin, rouges down below.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>OK highlighted above is the source of our different conclusions.  From your belief that a 50 AA'd ranger with t8 ammo is balanced with assassins/rogues, you are then extrapolating where rangers and assassins/rogues will be at 100 AAs and you are concluding rangers come out on top.</P> <P>Well, the problem is that your baseline start point assumption just isn't correct.  Even with t8 ammo, rangers were not on par with assassins pre-EoF.  Rangers were still 200+ dps behind assassins.  Recompute with that in mind, and you will arrive at a different result for 100 AA rangers compared to 100 AA assassins/rogues.<BR></P>

[Katsugen]

<P>Well I can't in good conscience leave a dps thread alone, so here is my 2c. We start throwing numbers around again with out clarifying and thats how the confusion begins. If we are talking wone wide numbers its one thing but if were talking single encounters its a whole 'nother ball o' wax. </P> <P>A fully fabled, full mastered ranger should be up close to 1800-2200dps for a single epic encounter. Now this can change depending on your group, throw a coercer in there your prolly gonna be on the higher side, maybe the mob doesn't ae so now the summoners are out parsing you. I find the duration of fights to be key as there is a small time where alot of my good hits are all down, and I'm sure my dps dips. *oh and I just got dbl atk yesterday so these numbers could be all off now.</P> <P>Now if we are going to talk zone wide these numbers are gonna be abit lower. You have to factor in afk's, deaths, slacking, down timer on fast pulling, down timer with adds. I don't know about everyone else but I am defintely pulling agro more in EoF than I ever did in KoS. Shaking agro is still pretty easy tho.</P> <P>As for rogues, I'm hearing alot of good things about swashies and the big numbers they are putting down. I only see it occasionally from ours, and it's usually when he trounces everyone, and we are like "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] man keep doing whatever it is your doing". Our brig number looks pretty similar to the KoS but I do see him pull agro more early in the fights. I am actually finding confounding arrow and hawk dive to be useful right at the start of the fight for keeping agro off our brig when he drops dispatch.</P> <P>Our assassins seem ok, one chats too much, the other is new and under geared, they put up decent numbers but I think they could be a bit higher. They seem to bounce up and down the top 10 and I assume thats laziness. When they go all out they seem to right near the top. </P> <P>Ok this is gettign a little long winded, summary, right now I think ranger dps is looking pretty good. I'm looking forward to a constant bump up w/ dbl atk, I felt like we were in a good spot before I got dbl atk. BUT....there are some concerns. </P> <P>It feels to me that I'm missing alot more. I haven't gone back to chekc my logs for old KoS to compare, but as I watch my combat window it just feels like I'm missing more. So the lack of +ranged items could play a factor at some point. Our adornemnts are kinda shotty being only +12 and not scaling. And even tho our aa's are pretty nice, they are adding consistant dps where alot of classes are getting spike dps. I'm pretty sure I'm never going to beat our necro or wiztard on the fight where they drop a manaburn or lifetap. Also when other classes start busting out blessing and mircles of specific fights our lack there of good dietys is gonna hurt us.</P> <P>Summary: dps position ok, no form of spike dmg, more +range items needed, scale adornments for bows</P> <P>This is just what I have been seeing, not the end all be all.</P> <P>- Katsguen</P>

[LoreLady]

I would have to agree with you kat on the entire thing.. And as for zonewide I was looking at an average at 1.8k dps pre eof for the top rangers out there, as well as 1.8k dps for assassins WITH t8 ammo, zonewdie

[Kukuzhong]

<DIV>Has anyone completed the tests on Enhanced SoA Vs Double Arrow?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would be interesting to know the results :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Amwix]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kukuzhong wrote:<div>Has anyone completed the tests on Enhanced SoA Vs Double Arrow?</div> <div> </div> <div>Would be interesting to know the results :smileyhappy:</div><hr></blockquote>I agree i would like to see parsings (with listing of grp make ups and equip levels) of a 100AA ranger.I have 2 lvl 70's atm.. one ranger(50AA) and one is strangly a swashy(69AA).Even before EoF i was out parsing my ranger by a good 400 dps. Ranger was normally 1k - 1.2ishk and Swashy is 1.1k - 1.6k.Both are all KoS raid equiped and ranger has Icor, although swashy is using a Lab drop sword (frostsomething)I attribute the swashys DPS jump to the simple fact that i gain more out of my grp mates buffs then my ranger did.  CoB, FayFire, dps from chanter, DPS from Inq.  things like CoB/FayFire dont work will bows as much.  Or maybe i just didnt play my ranger well at all <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Gerdos]

<P>DPS buffs should always goto the ranger before any other class.   Swashies next.  After that, you can throw zerkers, brawlers, brigands and assassins in the mix.</P> <P>For Haste, switch it around.  Assassins, brigands before any other class.    After that, zerkers, brawlers, swashies and rangers into the mix.</P> <P>The above lists the classes in order that will gain the most benefit from a % perspective.    From a raw dmg perspective, rangers/assassins could be put in front of the brigand/swashie to build upon their main self buff needs.</P> <P>Melee procs should generally goto melee classes ahead of rangers.   Brawlers, assassins, rogues, zerker .. will benefit more then rangers.   If your lucky to be raiding with a Conji, then they should be grouped with rangers, and rangers get Emberseed.</P> <P>In terms of raw dps, rangers should almost always be ahead of rogues.   During KoS and especially now with EoF.   With EoF, SOE have finally balanced the dps classes.   I dont see any one class dominating DPS, and its become more situational.    Assassins, Rangers, Wizards, Warlocks, Necro's (and maybe conjis) are all jostling for top dps for each encounter.   Some zones are more friendly to assassins, while other zones are more friendly to rangers.  Some named encounters, better suited to assassins, some rangers, some wizards ... warlocks, necros,  ..... its very situational now.</P> <P>At the 80-90 AA range, ~50% adornements equiped ... Rangers and Assassins are topping DPS fights at ~ 30% each.   Sorcerers, summoners, swashies and zerkers fill out the remaining 40%.  On zone wide parses, assassins and rangers should generally be top 2.  This might change once everyone has 100 AA's .. and adjust a little more as the new equipment starts to filter into the game.</P> <P>From my perspective, once we're capped on AAs/adornments ... i have a hunch rangers will edge out assassins as the best dps class.   Saying that, i also think this will be limited to only the very best rangers gamewide.   For the most part, its still easier for the avg assassin to beat the avg ranger. </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Gerdos on <span class=date_text>12-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[Wil81115]

<DIV>There is a reason we have a 41% hate reducer. </DIV> <DIV>We WERE suppose to be(for a while we were) the superior DPS class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PVP and PVE need seperate rulesets, thats it in a nutshell..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give me back my DPS, that is all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>