Soe. Please Help.

[Lyptus]

Alright, I love SOE. Despite any rumors, or gripes. Nerfs. I love SOE. Norrath is a wonderful place. =DNow I'm not gonna point fingers here, or say you guys aren't doing your job right, because thats not fair. You guys make money doing this, and most of us, shell our dimes out to play it. The feelings I am getting from reading these post on the ranger forum are that "There's something wrong, we're broken" Or "We're nerfed."  Most players aren't complaining about how much Damage we do. We do ton of damage. Its mostly about lack of Melee. I won't ever complain about my ranged dps or arrow usage. Summon Arrows is quite nice. Something I've never had as a scout class. Every other ranger the other games I've played, had to craft them or shell out coin meant for gear to buy them. The only really big hit is gear selection at higher end. Melee CA's are a bit to weak, in my humble opinion, but I just bow Kite to make up for them.So Rangers are "Ranged Primary" I will vote on taking a hit to my DPS, to make up for my melee. Or making us more of a benefit to a group other than hard hitting abilities. Most rangers who make it to high levels feel something that they can't quite put their fingers on...I can't quite either.Here is my take, lets get back to "Everquest" roots. Maybe not all the way, but here is what I'm talking about.This is what I say, make a ranger more like the EQ1 Ranger. Here is a quote...<font color="#ffff00"><span>Rangers are warriors attuned to the ways of nature, able to call upon the power of the wild to aid them in their fights. Rangers are primarily a melee class, able to wear chain armor and wield many kinds of weapons.Rangers are scouts and hunters, able to track enemies from a great distance and engage them with <font color="#ff9900">deadly ranged attacks, but rangers can also fight well in a melee</font>, using two weapons to attack their foes.Rangers have spells drawn from nature. <font color="#ff9900">They can increase run speed and add to an ally's armor, health or ability to attack. In a pinch, they can heal or directly damage</font> enemies with fiery attacks.Rangers can hunt alone or in a group, <font color="#ff9933">though allies allow them to best use their abilities</font>. A ranger's bow is a welcome addition to a group, adding a good deal of damage. <font color="#ff9900">The ranger is a great class for players who like to engage in melee battles</font> between trips to explore the broad expanse of Norrath.</span></font><div></div>

[Axor]

im happy how we are distributed melee / ranged, in fact i would prefer to never have to melee.in raid i rarely do.ALL i complain about is the lack of high end bows and ammo. the only way we can get up to Assasin or Wiz DPS is with a sarnak or a corruption bow + t8 ammo.Once with that in my guild, we only got 1 bazkul 1 ichostrand and no sarnak or corruption bows.There is a serius lack of bows in this game.

[Saihung23]

<P>I enjoy the balance we have right now between Ranged and Melee.  We have a good mix.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am rarely at a point where I dont have my ranged ca's up when I have run through my melee ca's.  I like the damage and utility provided to me with these melee ca's.  The utility is a self serving utility. The root generally is not usefull in a group, only the debuffs are useful group-wise.</P> <P> </P> <P>But overall...I would rate myself as contented with my melee/ranged arts.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now...fixing Hawk Dive and Stream of Arrows would be fantastic in my humble opinion.</P>

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Lyptus wrote:<BR>Alright, I love SOE. Despite any rumors, or gripes. Nerfs. I love SOE. Norrath is a wonderful place. =D<BR><BR>Now I'm not gonna point fingers here, or say you guys aren't doing your job right, because thats not fair. You guys make money doing this, and most of us, shell our dimes out to play it.<BR><BR>The feelings I am getting from reading these post on the ranger forum are that "There's something wrong, we're broken" Or "We're nerfed."<BR> <BR>Most players aren't complaining about how much Damage we do. We do ton of damage. <STRONG>Its mostly about lack of Melee.</STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>i have 7 melee attacks not including the master strikes. that's close to half of all my CAs. I use them all. 1 of them hits for over 1000 so i wouldn't call that lacking or weak. i am only level 60 and i think there's an update coming.</FONT></P> <P> I won't ever complain about my ranged dps or arrow usage. <STRONG>Summon Arrows is quite nice</STRONG>.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>while the summon arrows line is very nice, a new version of this CA should be given every 10 levels and not every 14 levels. i'm currently using grey summoned arrows from my level 48 spell against level 60 content. and while i seem to have enough arrows for soloing and small grouping a raiding ranger eats up way more arrows than they can possibly summon</FONT></P> <P>Something I've never had as a scout class. Every other ranger the other games I've played, had to craft them or shell out coin meant for gear to buy them. The only really big hit is gear selection at higher end. Melee CA's are a bit to weak, in my humble opinion, but I just bow Kite to make up for them.<BR><BR>So Rangers are "Ranged Primary"<BR><BR><STRONG>I will vote on taking a hit to my DPS, to make up for my melee.</STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>i counter this vote with keeping us as we are. the balance is just right for my playstyle.</FONT></P> <P>Or making us more of a benefit to a group other than hard hitting abilities. Most rangers who make it to high levels feel something that they can't quite put their fingers on...I can't quite either.<BR><BR>Here is my take, lets get back to "Everquest" roots. Maybe not all the way, but here is what I'm talking about.<BR>This is what I say, make a ranger more like the EQ1 Ranger. Here is a quote...<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN>Rangers are warriors attuned to the ways of nature, able to call upon the power of the wild to aid them in their fights. Rangers are primarily a melee class, able to wear chain armor and wield many kinds of weapons.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>this is still true. all of our self buffs are named like forest, wild, pathfinding and such</FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN><BR><BR>Rangers are scouts and hunters, able to track enemies from a great distance and engage them with <FONT color=#ff9900>deadly ranged attacks, but rangers can also fight well in a melee</FONT>, using two weapons to attack their foes.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>this is still true as well</FONT><BR><BR>Rangers have spells drawn from nature. <FONT color=#ff9900>They can increase run speed and add to an ally's armor, health or ability to attack. In a pinch, they can heal or directly damage</FONT> enemies with fiery attacks.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>we still have fire attacks but my EQ1 heals and buffs were [Removed for Content] and in a group or raid they often didn't stack with other classes spells cause they were gimpier.</FONT><BR><BR>Rangers can hunt alone or in a group, <FONT color=#ff9933>though allies allow them to best use their abilities</FONT>. A ranger's bow is a welcome addition to a group, adding a good deal of damage. <FONT color=#ff9900>The ranger is a great class for players who like to engage in melee battles</FONT> between trips to explore the broad expanse of Norrath.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>this is also still true</FONT><BR></SPAN></FONT><BR><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Lyptus wrote: <P>I won't ever complain about my ranged dps or arrow usage. Summon Arrows is quite nice.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hehehe, I hope you bookmark this thread and come back to it in a year or so. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I didn't complain about arrow usage myself, until I was over 60 and doing instances or raids on a regular basis. And I logged in to hunt, not to craft or gather or stand around town, so I didn't have sufficient time to sit there and click that button every 10 minutes.</P> <P>You know what's weird? In WoW, I can't summon any arrows - I have to buy every one I shoot. But so far (I'm level 37), they're so cheap that it doesn't matter. I just check my quiver, and if I'm short, I stop at a nearby merchant. Every general goods merchant, bowyer, fletcher, and some weapons merchants all sell arrows, and most of them sell every 'tier' of arrow that I can access. So it's not hard to find a vendor that sells them. I shell out maybe 10-20 silver for several hundred arrows, refill my quiver, and go off on my merry way with my trusty black lion by my side.</P> <P>I've never really thought "oh man these arrows are breakin the bank" or anything like that. I've never bought extra arrows and filled one of my other bags with them because I was afraid to run out. I did both of these things daily when playing EQ2.</P> <P>It's really that simple. Make the vendor ones nice and cheap, and/or make the summons spells create more or refresh faster. There is no reason to force Rangers into this frustrating situation, no reason at all.<BR></P>

[Lyptus]

Don't get me wrong about being "one with nature". lol. When I refer to buffs, something other than a run speed increase for your group would be pretty cool. I mean they would probably have to balance the class down, and [Removed for Content] to even the playing field. But I think that would be pretty cool. Will it happen, probably not. These are things that would be nice to see from a ranger. I do have to say, as the game is set right now, I don't see a balanced mix of ranged and melee abilities. But ranged being preferred, guess you got have one or the other.I do agree with most folks about the gear factor.My ranger is Level 60. lol. So I know what arrow consumption feels like raiding vs. grouping. Still have to say, not handing out money for arrows as often. Instead I save it for the raid wipes =P. Ranger is a great class to play. I can honestly say I won't play any other class. Just some of the finer details that would really make it so much cooler. The only cool thing is being the only active ranger in my guild. lol. So all the ranger masters go my way. lol. Now if I can only see a cool ranger bow someday...someday =DThanks for all the replies. <div></div>

[Magius789]

<DIV>I'm curious to know how many people that have responded to this post and are happy with the ranged/melee are on a PvP server?  From reading the responses I'm thinking there are few if any.  I have a lvl 57 ranger on a PvP server and I can tell you its a hard class to play.  All a player has to do is simply stand next to us and 90% of our attacks don't work.  So take away our bow attacks and there are what, maybe 7 attacks we can use, two of which have to be stealth while doing it and one of those you have to be stealthed and behind your target.  So basically thats 5 attacks...in groups with raiding or regular questing we are great.  Solo PvPing most of the times we are screwed unless its a caster and we get off our power stealthed bow attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many others play rangers on a PvP server?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Privan</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 57 Ranger -Storm- Venekor</DIV>

[schla]

I can understand that you want more melee CAs and better ones for soloing maybe...But in groups? Raids? I quite like the fact that a ranger is not "just" a brigand with a bow. Diversity of different classes is what makes this game fun and Rangers in my mind should be all about the bow....simply because noone else are. Rangers are unigue.Its the only class I have ever been able to bear levelling past 40 and I would like to see it stay that way I have played grouping/soloing for ages but lately due to my schedule I seem to only be able to log in for the medium/high end raids that i love to do (try <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> this leaves very little time for soloing about and grouping (miss it tho)I use melee to maximize my dps like any raiding ranger should but I don't want to get in and mix it up with the mob anymore than i have to to be honest<span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Taekwondo]

<P>I play on a PvP server also, and I have to agree, if you get melee'd then you get owned most of the time.  We can't even stand up to the other scouts in melee.  I get owned by assassins in seconds, even if I manage to get off a sniper shot, it is so nerfed down in pvp that it's not really useful.  It takes WAAAY too long to cast, and unless you were running around in stealth looking for pvp, chances are good that the other guy already saw you anyway.  I'm usually the first person FP come after, even if I am grouped, because they know that even with all my mastercrafted / legendary gear, I'm still easy to squish.  </P> <P>I guess I agree with some of what most people have said about rangers needing a good looking into, but I don't think it's necessarily a CA fix or gear fix (although I would love to see more ranger only stuff, or just better scout class gear that in general), but more of a cast / recast timer fix.  I had to burn like 24 AA to reduce Sniper Shot from 15 mins to 10 mins reuse, and even that is still too long imo.  </P> <P>Also, just to address the whole arrow consumption thing, I dropped 2pp (out of the 8 I had) on Adamantine arrows (because to buy cheaper is only screwing yourself out of higher dps rating, and thereby screwing your group as well) from the Bowyer merchant just before I went out to raid.  I burned through 70% of them before the raid was half over and ended up (as usual) trying to conserve by meleeing some.  If anyone thinks we can melee as well as any other scout class, then I would like to take a hit off whatever you are smoking.  I am dual-weilding legendary dropped weps, and am quickly realizing that I might as well hurl insults at the mobs.  Meleeing may be part of our CA, but it's like a half-hearted attempt and last ditch effort kinda thing.  I mean, I can slow / snare / debuff a little and I have a couple attacks and an attack with a root component, but unless I am planning to use the 2 seconds the mob is rooted to run away, I might as well just stand there and get [Removed for Content] instead so I can revive with the group.  And that's what I usually end up doing.  Even if I manage to change to defensive stance, that usually only prevents me from dying half a second sooner than I did.  I mean, the parser says that when I do ranged dps, I am usually in the top 3, but when I do melee, I actually get a large picture of a middle finger where my dps number should be.</P> <P>I think it's ridiculous that we have to spend 2pp per raid (or more if you buy from players) just to keep up with others dps.  And what really gets me is that there's a Berserker in my guild that does massive...I mean MASSIVE dps...and he wears plate...so he can tank and out dps me most of the time...and there's no balance issue there?  I mean I like the guy a lot, he's a great tank, but as far as the argument for my class goes, I think that is B.S.</P> <P>So yeah, my biggest complaint is that we get all these ranged attacks that we can't use if the mobs / pvpers are too close, and then we get some crap melee attacks which (even when they say 1k, you need to look at the pvp stats of the CA) don't do squat really besides give you some time to run away.  Hey, at least we still have evac...unless your armor procs you into combat while you run from the x3 FP raid who love to gather around your corpse and giggle every time they kill you in KoS because they have every cloud platform camped and can call a group together in less than a minute to bring the pain.  Bitter? No way, not me.  I just want to be able to stand toe-to-toe with any other scout class and have it come down to the wire if everything is on the same level gear / skills wise.  If someone is going to argue that "rangers are melee with a ranged ability" then where's the high avoidance / mitigation?  If I can't out punch you, then I should have learned to dodge your fist...and if I can't do that, then I should be able to outrun you and then bring you down with arrows from afar...or perhaps I should just be able to do that anyway without having to worry about getting into melee (which is a death sentence in pvp now that you can't seem to EVER find a solo or duo FP to catch unawares).  </P> <P> </P>

[Lev]

Well I don't think we will ever see an agreement on these issues. Every Week/month we see at least 1 new topic about something being wrong with our class.It is easy to say this and that about what you want for your own class, but whenever you do that you have to keep in mind EVERY other class there is. This is why balance is so hard to maintain.I get that many people want to see the rangers as a more iconic class, but please just take a look towards swg and forget that notion right away. The word "iconic" totally ruined that game.I however still agree that we are somewhat left out of the loop. We have had some nerfs to dmg due to the fact that we get ranged attacks, however mages have ranged attacks as well and their dmg is in most cases superiour to ours, and to add to this they can shoot of their spells at melee range. Of course we are chain wearers and take a hit in dps for that, but that still doesn't justify the fact that we are being punished because we can do stuff from range, and mages are not. Summoners are still the best dps class in the game, and they more than anyone can stay away from the fight.And we have the issue with dmg vs. utility. Many find it hard to uphold our dps against other scout classes that are classified t2, which basicly means they are both dps and utility classes. Some think we should have more utility and other think we should get a boost in dps. This however is hard considering we are classified t1 and changing that would mean changing the whole game mechanic, and that would only end badly.then we have these melee vs. ranged. This relates to the word "iconic" again. As allready stated we are the only classes that need to rely on the bow, yea sure other scout and fighter classes can use it, and some even have a few CAs, but we are the only ones that NEED the bow. To debate that our melee CAs are not weak is silly, yea I know we have some very useful melee attacks, like Rangers Blade and Emberstrike, both are stealth required and one of them is behind or flank, which means they do not work in a melee situation. I think this is a futile discussion, cause it all comes down to prefrence. However it is hard to make out the difference of what you want from your class, and what your class would do to benefit the game and the balance between the classes.Our main problem right now is probably in itemization, this comes down to timesink vs. reward. Arrow and poison consumption, and bow and arrow rarity really hurt us. Now poison consumption alone is something almost every scout class needs to worrie about, but they don't have to spend cash/time on gathering arrows, and they don't need to dedicate half their inventory to arrows.A ranger with Sarnak/LoC, and t8 ammo can do good enough compared to an equally equiped Assasin. However at mastercrafted lvls the rift is bigger, and you can often be outdone by t2 scouts. I think quivers should be ALOT bigger in slot size, I think bows should be more availible (I am not saying every ranger and her mother should have a sarnak and be ranger gods, I just don't think having the best 2 best bows in the game to uphold our dps is fair), I am not sure what I think about t8 ammo, it is however kinda discouraging knowing that I need to spend alot of time gathering arrows to have enough for a raid, and that if I had one of the summoning bows I would not have to. I think it is ok that getting hold of t8 arrow is rare, however I think our summoning spells should get a boost.Sorry for my long post, and my mangle of feelings. This was not meant as a rant or a hijack, just felt like sharing my opinions, my 2c if you prefer<div></div>

[Teksun]

Didn't they promise us 6-12 months ago (fan faire I'm sure) that they were 'looking into' the arrow problem? If the T8 bows are their answer, than they are just WRONG. I hate spending all my money on arrows. I think it's wrong...<div></div>

[Peadar2]

Hmmm well...the OP has an interesting point I suppose...not one I entirely agree with however....if you want "More" melee then betray and become an Assassin? Seems to me the whole argument over ranged and melee is whether you are on a PvP server or a PvE server...another hot topic of some debate. I like my ranged attacks as is and I don't want to trade off those attacks for better melee attacks...if I wanted to do more melee I would have rolled a fighter class.

[Mirdo]

<div></div>I guess a lot of the PvP'ers don't actually realise SoE already made changes to the Ranger class because of them. They took away the ability to use many of our CA's on the run as a direct result of the introduction of PvP. Yep, all those CA's you would like to able to cast on the run? We used to be able to do that. I guess that means that PvP Rangers are right where SoE wants them - like it or not.The class has been geared more towards Ranged in the high mid-end game for over 2 years now. I expect a few whines from PvP players isn't going to have the designers doing a complete class about-face.Mirdo. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Mirdo on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:53 PM</span>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Actually, I wouldn't complain if a few of the melee skills we have now were changed to ranged skills.  But this is coming from a PvE raiding ranger point of view.  I realize that this would upset about 95% of the Rangers out there because most still need the melee skills for soloing and some types of grouping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want to sound selfish, but frankly, the raiding ranger has taken a ton of nerfs just to balance PvP.  Enough is enough, I don't have any sympathy for PvP needs or desires anymore.</DIV>

[Taekwondo]

I realize that adjustments were made to rangers when PvP was introduced, and I can tell that some of you are bitter about that...but how do you think we feel on the PvP server?  On PvE you only have to deal with mobs attacking you, and usually only when you are in a zone where you can catch aggro because you want to...at 67 I can still get [Removed for Content] in Antonica if a raid group of freeporters comes in, so all that "whining" we are doing about how the class is geared now?  Yeah, cram it.  If you don't PvP then you have no idea how useful those "on the run" CA's were...but I'm not asking for them back.  I adapted to the situation and I still manage to do ok most of the time.  And before you start in on me, I play on PvP because I like it, but yes, there are some things that I think should be changed or fixed or improved.  And if I, or any other PvP ranger voices his / her opinion about it (just like the rest of you PvE guys) and you don't like what we have to say, then so be it, but if you are flaming us just because we are "whiny PvPers" then you can go get bent.  <div></div>

[Mronin]

Here is the problem. Those of us who play PvE are cheesed off because we were told by SOE on many occasions that PvP wouldn't impact PvE play. This was an outright lie and while they don't specifically say that anymore they also continue to make changes to (for some insane reason that is beyond anyone with an ounce of technical expertise) to PvE BECAUSE of PvP. They do this while specifically ignoring PvE issues that could easily be separated out from our PvP counterparts. So yeah PvP isn't going to get a whole lot of sympathy (least of all from me) until SOE gets their collective heads out of their collective arses and begins fixing the glaring issues that exist in PvE.

[Taekwondo]

Got it.  You're mad because you can't PvE as well as you used to be able to because PvP exists.  Guess what?  WE PVE TOO.  How do you think we get the majority of our gear?  So yeah, we're a bit "cheesed off" as well bro.  The fact is, while PvE may not function as well as you would like, it's still a whole lot better than the way PvP combat works.  Just imagine that you are in Mistmoore Catacombs hunting for rare drops, you are in a group you know well and you are handling the mobs easily.  Suddenly, before you can loot the Ornate Chest that just dropped, you are attacked by a raid x2 of level 70's wearing Fabled PvP gear and they beat down the entire group in a few seconds.  You don't know what suck is, so don't cry about how PvE is suffering and try to say that PvP is somehow to blame.  If you can't PvE well, then you should find a different game to play, because that's the ONLY place I see any kind of balance going on.  As for the rest of you who think that we are just as good at melee as our scout counterparts, it's never more evident how much we depend on ranged as when you have another player trying to kill you and you can't get a shot off.  <div></div>

[Jay]

<DIV>Frankly, Sony's mistake was starting off and saying "EQ2 is a PvE only game, we have no plans for PvP at this time." And then later, looking at WoW and realizing that they were really shooting themselves in the foot, and saying "Okay NOW we have plans for PvP, but the rulesets will be totally different, trust us." We know how well that turned out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they were going to include PvP, it should have been planned for and included from the start. We struggle against this bizarre division in all classes due to PvP vs PvE - and since you can *only* PvP on a server basis (outside of duels), most of the population has no idea how their skills translate to PvE. The PvE players have totally legitimate problems and desires, just like the rest of us, and it's not their fault that Sony didn't plan or execute the PvP aspect of EQ2 very well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In WoW, there are no separate rulesets or separate servers. (You do have PvP servers, but they just handle the PvP auto-flagging differently, so you're more vulnerable to PvP more of the time, but players on PvE servers can and do PvP on a regular basis. I'm one of them.) It's up to any individual player how much PvP they want to experience, regardless of their server (though obviously those who want more will roll on PvP servers). You don't have skills that do one thing on Server X and something different on Server Y. You do have some skills that you think "why would I need to that to an NPC mob?" and then you realize that it's more useful / effective in a PvP situation. So if you never PvP, you don't purchase or upgrade that skill, or spend the points if it's a Talent. Same is true in reverse if you're a die-hard PVPer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whereas in EQ2, we all get the same skills and have very little opportunity to customize our characters to suit our playstyles. Our AAs are about the only mechanic for that, and the AA diversity is limited at best. So we're all struggling to force the same skillset to fit two very different purposes, because the CA mechanic wasn't (to my knowledge) intended to work for PvP when it was planned in pre-release. To me, it seems PvPers would be just as frustrated, if not moreso, than PvE players, seeing as how their "side" of this game was added as an afterthought. The clumsy attempt to make PvE skills viable in PvP has been problematic for all players, PvP and PvE alike.</DIV>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taekwondo wrote:<BR>Suddenly, before you can loot the Ornate Chest that just dropped, you are attacked by a raid x2 of level 70's wearing Fabled PvP gear and they beat down the entire group in a few seconds.  You don't know what suck is, so don't cry about how PvE is suffering and try to say that PvP is somehow to blame.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It sounds like you might be happier on a PvE server, if being in a PvP environment is this upsetting to you. You understood what you were getting when you rolled on that server, no? So don't cry about it now - either suck it up and deal, or re-roll on a carebear server and move on. </P> <P>As I posted above, I don't blame PvPers for anything. I blame SOE for the problems with their game. If I were you, I'd be just as frustrated with the PvE skillset trying to do double duty when it wasn't designed to in the first place.</P>

[Taekwondo]

"Whereas in EQ2, we all get the same skills and have very little opportunity to customize our characters to suit our playstyles. Our AAs are about the only mechanic for that, and the AA diversity is limited at best. So we're all struggling to force the same skillset to fit two very different purposes, because the CA mechanic wasn't (to my knowledge) intended to work for PvP when it was planned in pre-release. To me, it seems PvPers would be just as frustrated, if not moreso, than PvE players, seeing as how their "side" of this game was added as an afterthought. The clumsy attempt to make PvE skills viable in PvP has been problematic for all players, PvP and PvE alike." ------------------------ Yeah, I agree with that.  I hate the fact that my skills have different caps / effects in a PvP fight than they do in a PvE fight.  For example, I had a crit with Sniper Shot the other night on a mob that did over 14k dmg...but then I go out to PvP and I can maybe hit a cloth caster for 4k if they have crappy gear...once in a while I can one-shot them, but most of the time they either run away or they have a group that comes out of nowhere to root / stun me and then [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] me.  I don't know what the solution is, but I know that dropping my Sniper Shot damage cap by 6k points is not it. <div></div>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Taekwondo wrote:Suddenly, before you can loot the Ornate Chest that just dropped, you are attacked by a raid x2 of level 70's wearing Fabled PvP gear and they beat down the entire group in a few seconds.  You don't know what suck is, so don't cry about how PvE is suffering and try to say that PvP is somehow to blame. <hr> </blockquote> <p>It sounds like you might be happier on a PvE server, if being in a PvP environment is this upsetting to you. You understood what you were getting when you rolled on that server, no? So don't cry about it now - either suck it up and deal, or re-roll on a carebear server and move on. </p> <p>As I posted above, I don't blame PvPers for anything. I blame SOE for the problems with their game. If I were you, I'd be just as frustrated with the PvE skillset trying to do double duty when it wasn't designed to in the first place.</p><hr></blockquote>Of course I understood that, and I said that in one of my previous posts.  I like PvPing because of the fact that it's NOT just the mobs...it's way more exciting to not know what's around the corner, and over time you get to know some of the guys on the other side because they are always PvPing and you can even say that you "hate" them because they are so good, but it's just a game and I don't get that amped up over it.  But to address your point, I'm not crying about PvP dude, I'm just trying to tell PvE players that when they say "you get no sympathy from me" it sounds pretty stupid.  You are crying about your "carebear server" not being easy enough, but you don't have to deal with the same threats we do on PvP...and when I agree with your points (or the OP's points) about how things need to be changed, or (gasp!) even give my own OPINION on them, I get attacked and told not to be a crybaby because of where I choose to play?  God forbid I try to relate some of my experiences as a PvPer to yours as a PvE.<div></div>

[Magius789]

<DIV>First off, lets keep things civil here, we're all rangers so we share a bond.  However I think the big frustration is that on a PvE sever you fight only when you want to.  On a PvP server you have to look over your shoulder every three seconds.  The people that play rangers on a PvE server don't understand the true meaning of pain.  You main concerns are how well you raid.  Our main concern is how to stay alive.  You might have trouble with a certain quest....we have trouble just getting to the NPC to start the quest!  PvP adds a whole new element to the game and IMO makes it more exciting.  I played on a PvE server for a few years and after I joined a PvP server I can't really see going back, it would be way to boring.  So instead of pointing fingers and saying PvE people are bitter at us PvP people because things got nerfed how about we think of idea's to get the changes we want made.  Remember it isn't our fault SOE nerfed the crap out us, it because they can't plan very well and make a good transition.  If we find the right ways to approach these problems we can get them changed, case in point...the whole evac change that SOE did was done soley because people complained and Sony got tired of hearing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Privan</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 57 Ranger -Storm- Venekor</DIV>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>Magius789 wrote:<div>First off, lets keep things civil here, we're all rangers so we share a bond.  However I think the big frustration is that on a PvE sever you fight only when you want to.  On a PvP server you have to look over your shoulder every three seconds.  The people that play rangers on a PvE server don't understand the true meaning of pain.  You main concerns are how well you raid.  Our main concern is how to stay alive.  You might have trouble with a certain quest....we have trouble just getting to the NPC to start the quest!  PvP adds a whole new element to the game and IMO makes it more exciting.  I played on a PvE server for a few years and after I joined a PvP server I can't really see going back, it would be way to boring.  So instead of pointing fingers and saying PvE people are bitter at us PvP people because things got nerfed how about we think of idea's to get the changes we want made.  Remember it isn't our fault SOE nerfed the crap out us, it because they can't plan very well and make a good transition.  If we find the right ways to approach these problems we can get them changed, case in point...the whole evac change that SOE did was done soley because people complained and Sony got tired of hearing it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Privan</div> <div>Lvl 57 Ranger -Storm- Venekor</div><hr></blockquote>I agree, I just tried to make a few points in my first post and then 3 people attacked PvPers (perhaps I'm a bit sensitive to that issue, playing on a PvP server does tend to make you want to fight a lot hehe) saying they were "crybabies" or "would get no sympathy"...when did we ask for any?  Or at least, any more than you PvE guys are asking for <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>

[Magius789]

<DIV>I agree Taranthiel we have the same problems the PvE rangers have as well as PvP problems.  I'm not saying this to complain about the PvP servers, its a hell of a lot of fun.  So please fellow PvEers don't be bitter at us, we have the same problems as you and then some!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Privan</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 57 Ranger -Storm- Venekor</DIV>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>I know that I said I don't have anymore sympathy for PVPers.  But after being told to "cram it" and to "go get bent," I've decided to re-think my position on this matter...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nope, I still don't have sympathy for PvPers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For what it's worth, I realize it wasn't the Rangers on PvP that was screaming for the Ranger nerfs.  It was all those other classes, who were getting their butts handed to them on a platter by the Rangers, calling for the nerfs.  Also, I don't think anyone flamed you.  You're reading too much into the posts.</DIV>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <div>I know that I said I don't have anymore sympathy for PVPers.  But after being told to "cram it" and to "go get bent," I've decided to re-think my position on this matter...</div> <div> </div> <div>Nope, I still don't have sympathy for PvPers.</div> <div> </div> <div>For what it's worth, I realize it wasn't the Rangers on PvP that was screaming for the Ranger nerfs.  It was all those other classes, who were getting their butts handed to them on a platter by the Rangers, calling for the nerfs.  Also, I don't think anyone flamed you.  You're reading too much into the posts.</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, I tend to take things a little too personally at times I suppose.  It just felt like people were acting like PvPers are a bunch of whiners that were moaning about how hard PvP is...the fact is, it's hard to be a ranger in PvP, and even harder to be a good ranger because even though you have ranged attacks and stealth, you really only have ranged attacks and stealth, and once you start fighting another player, stealth is kinda worthless unless you are running away. But I understand your pain on the raids...running out of arrows sucks. <div></div>

[Mronin]

Well bubba before you go assuming that no one else here has ever played PvP you better check yourself. Some of us have played PvP and ditched it very quickly. I know exactly what your talking about so leave the holier than thou attitude at the door. I've played PvP and frankly the computer generated mobs are more random than 90% of the people on any PvP server. People are predictable that's why certain tactics on a PvP server are always in place when you're out in a kill zone. You think PvP is tough then leave and don't let the door hit you in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on the way out. Go enjoy stroking your ego some where else and leave us poor dumb PvE people try and come up with ways to help the whole class out instead of whining because you don't like getting ganked when you're on a raid. This should be expected as you KNOW you're on a PvP server. jesus h. some peoples children.

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magius789 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm curious to know how many people that have responded to this post and are happy with the ranged/melee are on a PvP server?  From reading the responses I'm thinking there are few if any.  I have a lvl 57 ranger on a PvP server and I can tell you its a hard class to play.  All a player has to do is simply stand next to us and 90% of our attacks don't work.  So take away our bow attacks and there are what, maybe 7 attacks we can use, two of which have to be stealth while doing it and one of those you have to be stealthed and behind your target.  So basically thats 5 attacks...in groups with raiding or regular questing we are great.  Solo PvPing most of the times we are screwed unless its a caster and we get off our power stealthed bow attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many others play rangers on a PvP server?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Privan</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 57 Ranger -Storm- Venekor</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>i have not played on a pvp server so forgive me if these questions sound dumb.</P> <P>1) do you have the melee CA with the 4 second root effect? does it work against players?</P> <P>2) does cheap shot work on players?</P> <P>3) does point blank shot work on players?</P> <P>when using these i can get off 5 arrow attacks on NPC mobs and by the time i've used the third one the first is almost refreshed.</P> <P>4) do you stand still and fight or constantly move? timing is everything and when you are not infront of your oponent they cant hit you (unless they are a caster of course)</P>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>Mronin wrote:Well bubba before you go assuming that no one else here has ever played PvP you better check yourself. Some of us have played PvP and ditched it very quickly. I know exactly what your talking about so leave the holier than thou attitude at the door. I've played PvP and frankly the computer generated mobs are more random than 90% of the people on any PvP server. People are predictable that's why certain tactics on a PvP server are always in place when you're out in a kill zone. You think PvP is tough then leave and don't let the door hit you in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on the way out. Go enjoy stroking your ego some where else and leave us poor dumb PvE people try and come up with ways to help the whole class out instead of whining because you don't like getting ganked when you're on a raid. This should be expected as you KNOW you're on a PvP server. jesus h. some peoples children.<hr></blockquote>I better check myself?  Or what?  First of all, I never assumed anyone here had never PvP'd before, if you bothered to read through my first post, you would see that I was only trying to give the PvP perspective on the OP's comments MOST OF WHICH I AGREED WITH.  I don't know why you feel it's your duty to taunt me, but I don't appreciate the way you keep trying to say I'm acting "holier than thou" when YOU are the one that posted the comment about PvP being a drain on your fun in a PvE server.  I have played PvP games for years, so I know the scoop, and if you bothered to read most of the stuff I said earlier, you would know that.  As far as me "whining" about being ganked, I was merely pointing out how different the considerations are in a PvP environment.  I didn't intend for you to take it as a personal stab in the eye.  And don't come at me with "I've played PvP..." because you're not going to win that one, bro.  At best, you could match me game for game, at worst, you "tried out" PvP on this game, decided you didn't like it and went back to your...what did you call it? oh yeah, carebear server. I NEVER said, nor implied that PvPer's were better players or people anything else even close to that, I was merely pointing out differences.  I can't believe I am letting you irritate me this much. <div></div>

[Mronin]

<blockquote><hr>Taekwondo wrote:<blockquote><hr>Mronin wrote:Well bubba before you go assumingthat no one else here has ever played PvP you better check yourself.Some of us have played PvP and ditched it very quickly. I know exactlywhat your talking about so leave the holier than thou attitude at thedoor. I've played PvP and frankly the computer generated mobs are morerandom than 90% of the people on any PvP server. People are predictablethat's why certain tactics on a PvP server are always in place whenyou're out in a kill zone. You think PvP is tough then leave and don'tlet the door hit you in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on the wayout. Go enjoy stroking your ego some where else and leave us poor dumbPvE people try and come up with ways to help the whole class outinstead of whining because you don't like getting ganked when you're ona raid. This should be expected as you KNOW you're on a PvP server.jesus h. some peoples children.<hr></blockquote>I better checkmyself?  Or what?  First of all, I never assumed anyone herehad never PvP'd before, if you bothered to read through my first post,you would see that I was only trying to give the PvP perspective on theOP's comments MOST OF WHICH I AGREED WITH.  I don't know why youfeel it's your duty to taunt me, but I don't appreciate the way youkeep trying to say I'm acting "holier than thou" when YOU are the onethat posted the comment about PvP being a drain on your fun in a PvEserver.  I have played PvP games for years, so I know the scoop,and if you bothered to read most of the stuff I said earlier, you wouldknow that.  As far as me "whining" about being ganked, I was merely pointing outhow different the considerations are in a PvP environment.  Ididn't intend for you to take it as a personal stab in the eye. And don't come at me with "I've played PvP..." because you're not goingto win that one, bro.  At best, you could match me game for game,at worst, you "tried out" PvP on this game, decided you didn't like itand went back to your...what did you call it? oh yeah, carebear server.I NEVER said, nor implied that PvPer's were better players or peopleanything else even close to that, I was merely pointing outdifferences.  I can't believe I am letting you irritate me thismuch.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Probably because most ignorant blowhards know at their core what they really are. I've read your other posts and you have got to be one of the most puerile idiots I've run across in these forums in a while. kid I can absolutely assure you that the only one impressed by you "Skills" is yourself.As you can probably tell there aren't many here who give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about the "PvP perspective". Not to mention the fact that despite the drivel you just wrote, every post previous is simply you crowing either about your supposed skills or trying to tell the rest of us how we are wrong for being upset at SOE lying to us and claiming PvP wouldn't effect PvE. Now if you can bother to pull your head out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and do what you actually claim I am not doing, which is re-read the tripe you've posted thus far you will what I'm talking about.Edited to add that given the level of sheer idiocy you continue to display you've just made it on the ignore list. Congrats, you can stand up on the short bus tomorrow and say you've won the internet forums. Have a nice day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<p>Message Edited by Mronin on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:21 PM</span>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Magius789 wrote: <div>I'm curious to know how many people that have responded to this post and are happy with the ranged/melee are on a PvP server?  From reading the responses I'm thinking there are few if any.  I have a lvl 57 ranger on a PvP server and I can tell you its a hard class to play.  All a player has to do is simply stand next to us and 90% of our attacks don't work.  So take away our bow attacks and there are what, maybe 7 attacks we can use, two of which have to be stealth while doing it and one of those you have to be stealthed and behind your target.  So basically thats 5 attacks...in groups with raiding or regular questing we are great.  Solo PvPing most of the times we are screwed unless its a caster and we get off our power stealthed bow attack.</div> <div> </div> <div>How many others play rangers on a PvP server?</div> <div> </div> <div>Privan</div> <div>Lvl 57 Ranger -Storm- Venekor</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>i have not played on a pvp server so forgive me if these questions sound dumb. </p> <p><font color="#ccff00">No worries, the only dumb questions are the ones you don't ask hehe <span>:smileywink:</span></font> </p> <p>1) do you have the melee CA with the 4 second root effect? does it work against players? </p> <p><font color="#ccff00">Yes and Yes, but it's rare to find a player that can't either stun you, snare you or root you too, so I try to avoid getting into melee range if I can help it (which you can't usually lol)</font> </p> <p>2) does cheap shot work on players? </p> <p><font color="#ccff00">Yep</font> </p> <p>3) does point blank shot work on players? </p> <p><font color="#ccff00">Yep, I helped many people have a bad day near cliffs using that when I had the Agi line hehe</font> </p> <p>when using these i can get off 5 arrow attacks on NPC mobs and by the time i've used the third one the first is almost refreshed. </p> <p><font color="#ccff00">There's no way to get 5 ranged attacks off on a player unless your snare holds and you have a good lead on them AND you have some other people distracting him...in PvP, Freeporters know that if they don't get us and the healer right off the bat, they will have a much tougher fight.  If you are doing 1 vs 1 PvP, you may get the chance to test out combos, but it's really rare to find PvP action like that anymore, most of it is group vs group or more and it's usually very one-sided as most of the PvP isn't "fair" fighting (as in 70 vs 70 or group of 70 vs group of 70), and this is just something else you get used to.  Everyone takes a beating sometimes, some of us more than most lol.</font> </p> <p>4) do you stand still and fight or constantly move? timing is everything and when you are not infront of your oponent they cant hit you (unless they are a caster of course)</p><font color="#ccff00">I try to move around a lot to avoid getting pegged right away and let the others in my group do most of the meleeing, which usually leaves me free to find the healer and / or caster to try and burn down as quickly as possible, but if the other group has a scout class too, they usually come find me first and then it's all about who can dodge and attack the best, which I'll admit is usually not me hehe</font><hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Magius789]

<DIV>First off Mronin, you can't possibly say you know what we are talking about if you "tried it and ditched it very quickly".  Especially since the rest of your thread goes on saying how people PvP.  SOME people are predictable, most of the good PvPer's are not.  We aren't asking for sympathy, like Taranthiel said he just wanted to give you a perspective on how PvP rangers feel.  We have the SAME problems you do plus getting beat up by other players.  We don't want your sympathy but we sure as hell don't want your ridicule.  You are the one acting like a child when the two main PvPers have said we just want to find the right way for ALL of our voices to be heard!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bongotez, we have all of the same attacks a PvE ranger has but there effects in PvP are all drastically reduced.  We use the root attack but it at most it holds them for 2 seconds, usually enough to get off 1 fast cast ranger attack.  Same goes with point blank and all the others.  At most we can get off 2 attacks if we are lucky before they run up next to us.  Most of your pvp encounter last seconds not minutes.  Most other classes have decent melee abilites so they can drop your life very quickly.  Only recently with EoF have fights lasted longer but now with the new AA lines and miracles it seems to be going back down hill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Privan</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 57 Ranger -Storm- Venekor</DIV>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>Mronin wrote:<blockquote><hr>Taekwondo wrote:<blockquote><hr>Mronin wrote:Well bubba before you go assumingthat no one else here has ever played PvP you better check yourself.Some of us have played PvP and ditched it very quickly. I know exactlywhat your talking about so leave the holier than thou attitude at thedoor. I've played PvP and frankly the computer generated mobs are morerandom than 90% of the people on any PvP server. People are predictablethat's why certain tactics on a PvP server are always in place whenyou're out in a kill zone. You think PvP is tough then leave and don'tlet the door hit you in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on the wayout. Go enjoy stroking your ego some where else and leave us poor dumbPvE people try and come up with ways to help the whole class outinstead of whining because you don't like getting ganked when you're ona raid. This should be expected as you KNOW you're on a PvP server.jesus h. some peoples children.<hr></blockquote>I better checkmyself?  Or what?  First of all, I never assumed anyone herehad never PvP'd before, if you bothered to read through my first post,you would see that I was only trying to give the PvP perspective on theOP's comments MOST OF WHICH I AGREED WITH.  I don't know why youfeel it's your duty to taunt me, but I don't appreciate the way youkeep trying to say I'm acting "holier than thou" when YOU are the onethat posted the comment about PvP being a drain on your fun in a PvEserver.  I have played PvP games for years, so I know the scoop,and if you bothered to read most of the stuff I said earlier, you wouldknow that.  As far as me "whining" about being ganked, I was merely pointing outhow different the considerations are in a PvP environment.  Ididn't intend for you to take it as a personal stab in the eye. And don't come at me with "I've played PvP..." because you're not goingto win that one, bro.  At best, you could match me game for game,at worst, you "tried out" PvP on this game, decided you didn't like itand went back to your...what did you call it? oh yeah, carebear server.I NEVER said, nor implied that PvPer's were better players or peopleanything else even close to that, I was merely pointing outdifferences.  I can't believe I am letting you irritate me thismuch.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Probably because most ignorant blowhards know at their core what they really are. I've read your other posts and you have got to be one of the most puerile idiots I've run across in these forums in a while. kid I can absolutely assure you that the only one impressed by you "Skills" is yourself.As you can probably tell there aren't many here who give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about the "PvP perspective". Not to mention the fact that despite the drivel you just wrote, every post previous is simply you crowing either about your supposed skills or trying to tell the rest of us how we are wrong for being upset at SOE lying to us and claiming PvP wouldn't effect PvE. Now if you can bother to pull your head out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and do what you actually claim I am not doing, which is re-read the tripe you've posted thus far you will what I'm talking about.Edited to add that given the level of sheer idiocy you continue to display you've just made it on the ignore list. Congrats, you can stand up on the short bus tomorrow and say you've won the internet forums. Have a nice day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<p>Message Edited by Mronin on <span class="date_text">12-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:21 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You know, I was going to write yet another long post trying to get you to see that I wasn't trying to offend you, but you have completely spiraled into name-calling, and I am not responding to that.  Have a nice life. <div></div>

[Magius789]

<DIV>Mronin you are the one with the superiority complex, its evident in you refering to everybody as "kid" automatically assuming you are older and wiser than the others.  In this post Taranthiel has not boasted about his PvP skills or done anything that makes people seem as if he is boasting.  He is adding his opinion to this thread and talking with other rangers.  You seem to be a very angry and bitter person who is upset that because SONY decided to introduce PvP your character and money are being lessened somehow.  Quit attacking him/her and get back to the original topic of this thread and stop flaming.  Right now you are causing more harm than good.  Take a breather, go outside and walk around the block, become less bitter and then post something HELPFULL!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Privan</DIV>

[Mronin]

<blockquote><hr>Magius789 wrote:<DIV>First off Mronin, you can't possibly say you know what we are talking about if you "tried it and ditched it very quickly".  Especially since the rest of your thread goes on saying how people PvP.  SOME people are predictable, most of the good PvPer's are not.  We aren't asking for sympathy, like Taranthiel said he just wanted to give you a perspective on how PvP rangers feel.  We have the SAME problems you do plus getting beat up by other players.  We don't want your sympathy but we sure as hell don't want your ridicule.  You are the one acting like a child when the two main PvPers have said we just want to find the right way for ALL of our voices to be heard!</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Bongotez, we have all of the same attacks a PvE ranger has but there effects in PvP are all drastically reduced.  We use the root attack but it at most it holds them for 2 seconds, usually enough to get off 1 fast cast ranger attack.  Same goes with point blank and all the others.  At most we can get off 2 attacks if we are lucky before they run up next to us.  Most of your pvp encounter last seconds not minutes.  Most other classes have decent melee abilites so they can drop your life very quickly.  Only recently with EoF have fights lasted longer but now with the new AA lines and miracles it seems to be going back down hill.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Privan</DIV><DIV>Lvl 57 Ranger -Storm- Venekor</DIV><hr></blockquote>Oh but I do, I ditched a lvl 57 monk because I couldn't stand the very attitude displayed by the "person" I was responding to. Again don't assume because you have zero idea what I have or haven't done. Also what you totally fail to understand is that you're voices as PvPers are heard and very loudly by SOE. That voice tends to be solely focused on what you need in PvP with no regard what so ever as to the impact it has on PvE or the Ranger class as a whole. This is a fact and is evidence by the changes they have made to our class in DIRECT response to the PvP player base. It is these changes and these facts that lend to PvP getting little sympathy from most people in the PvE community. SOE makes changes to suite YOUR needs and NOT ours. If you choose not to believe this then fine I have neither the time nor the inclination to try and force you to see the facts that obvious all over the developer boards here. So far all I've seen from the main PvP people here are short sighted complaints about certain changes would effect PvP not suggestions that would help the class as a whole.<p>Message Edited by Mronin on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:04 PM</span>

[Taekwondo]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Taekwondo on <span class="date_text">12-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:24 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Taekwondo on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:29 PM</span>

[Magius789]

<DIV>You obviously haven't seen much then.  Taranthiel and I posted AGREEING with the OP and stating from a PvPer's perspective we would like more melee attacks. Or atleast let us use our abilities in close range.  Your only posts have been bashing the PvPers because you don't like these changes.  REMEMEBER we aren't the ones asking for the changes, they effect us more than they do you!  Take your bitter attitude and childish behavior else where.  If you are so unhappy with the changes on your "carebear" server then quit and play another game!  Also I wasn't assuming anything about your pvp experience.  I was quoting YOUR own words!  Lets get back to the original topic and stop flaming.</DIV>

[Gerdos]

<P>I've seen some people posting they want more ranged CAs, and some wanting more melee attacks.  I dont have a problem with people wanting/pushing for changes, but they do need to do more then just state their case without laying out the facts if they want to convince others on the need for change.  Nor should it matter what servers (PvP vs PvE) people come from.  We all play the same class, even if the primary focus is not always the same.   Same needs, just different priorities and considerations.  </P> <P>As to the OP needs/question .. no one has yet looked at the situation.</P> <P>For the record, Rangers have 7 melee attacks, 12 ranged attacks.  Our KoS Predator AA tree provides a melee attack from each line, so that's another 2 or 3 melee attacks available to rangers.   That's almost a 45% : 55% ,melee/ranged ratio.    On that evidence, i dont see a need for change.  Any more melee CAs and you could argue we stop being rangers.</P> <P>Throw in Vines, Cheap Shot, ... even Elude and Surveillance have their uses against other players.. these 4 CA's open up other possibilities to ranged or melee styles.</P> <P>Whether i'm fighting NPCs or dueling players, i pretty much use all my CA's.  I personally believe, SOE have done a great job with our choice of CA's (lack of utitlity CA's not withstanding).  Our strength lies in ranged, but we're capable of going melee when needed.   I still have a hunch, most players dont utilise everything available to us so will find themselves falling short in certain situations, not withstanding our inherent weakness from class design alone.</P> <P>If after really testing out our full arsenal of CAs available to us, people still believe we need more melee attacks, then i think, your playing the wrong class and should look into the 3 other scout classes that were designed around melee.  That's not a critisism, but a change of class oriented towards your personal tastes.</P> <P>(side note, does Thorny Trap work against players in PvP?)</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gerdos on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[Mronin]

<blockquote><hr>Magius789 wrote:<DIV>You obviously haven't seen much then.  Taranthiel and I posted AGREEING with the OP and stating from a PvPer's perspective we would like more melee attacks. Or atleast let us use our abilities in close range.  Your only posts have been bashing the PvPers because you don't like these changes.  REMEMEBER we aren't the ones asking for the changes, they effect us more than they do you!  Take your bitter attitude and childish behavior else where.  If you are so unhappy with the changes on your "carebear" server then quit and play another game!  Also I wasn't assuming anything about your pvp experience.  I was quoting YOUR own words!  Lets get back to the original topic and stop flaming.</DIV><hr></blockquote> LOL, wow two of a kind and display the exact attitude that soured me on PvP. I would go on but you two are genuinely to clueless for words. Have fun in your delusions that you're "uberer" than the rest of us. I give up, you are right and I am wrong. Happy now? Would you like a cookie? Oh and yes you did assume and read into what I wrote without having any clue as to my experience. Any more unfounded accusations bright boy?

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Well I don't pretend to be an expert at PvP, (though I do play now on Venekor), but I can give you what my personal experience has been.</P> <P>I am a solo player.  </P> <P>For a variety of reasons, both personal and practical, that has been my play style since I walked the lands of Britannia, and all the lands in between; from Norrath to Hibernia and beyond.</P> <P>I am a Ranger.  I have always played a Ranger, even in games that did not have a Ranger class, I modeled my skills to most closely approximate the Ranger archtype.</P> <P>I play a Ranger primarily because I am a solo player, and the class has always been the most versatile and solo friendly.</P> <P>And I like the personna of the Ranger from literature as well;  self reliant, the lone wolf,  the mountain man of the early west, the rugged individual, forced to live by his own wits and skills.  We Rangers have always been a solitary lot. </P> <P>I know that it is a group oriented game, but it is my feeling that the recent changes are not so much a question of ranged CAs vs. melee CAs, as much as they have to do with solo ability vs. group play.</P> <P>A ranged heavy Ranger in a group is as deadly and viable as they ever were, but as a solo player, a ranged heavy Ranger is not able to preform the 'hit and run' tactics as effectively as they used to do in PvP.  We have been forced into melee more than used to be the case.</P> <P>While many classes applaud that, they really have no appreciation of the strengths and weaknesses of a Ranger in PvP.  Rangers cannot melee effectively in PvP, at least not compared to their ranged abilities.</P> <P>Melee has been the fighting style of last resort, or to finish off a crippled opponent, not the preferred fighting style.</P> <P>This is, (I believe), as it should be.  A Ranger without a bow is simply something else, but not a Ranger.</P> <P>And in group play, he still can be.  But as a solo player, as a stalker, as a hunter, he is forced into areas that he does not function as effectively as his opponents.</P> <P>I do not want to play a melee heavy class, but that seems to be the direction Rangers are being pushed to (at least in solo PvP)</P> <P>Rangers do not function any better as tanks in PvE as they do in PvP.  Try letting the Ranger in the group be the main tank on a raid, and see how long that lasts!</P> <P>We had a saying for it back in EQLive:  Ranger Gate; (LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...)</P> <P>Do not force me to become a melee class.</P> <P>I am a Ranger. </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>12-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 PM</span>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magius789 wrote:<BR> <DIV>You obviously haven't seen much then.  Taranthiel and I posted AGREEING with the OP and stating from a <FONT color=#ff0000>PvPer's perspective we would like more melee attacks</FONT>. Or atleast let us use our abilities in close range.  Your only posts have been bashing the PvPers because you don't like these changes.  REMEMEBER we aren't the ones asking for the changes, they effect us more than they do you!  Take your bitter attitude and childish behavior else where.  If you are so unhappy with the changes on your "carebear" server then quit and play another game!  Also I wasn't assuming anything about your pvp experience.  I was quoting YOUR own words!  Lets get back to the original topic and stop flaming.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You want more melee CAs, betray to an assassin... What? Dont want to betray? Roll a Swashy. If you picked a ranger hoping to use a bow, then you should be happy with the class as is.</P> <P>While you might not be the ones asking for the changes, PvPers are without a doubt the reason for so many changes to rangers. With that said. I dont feel sorry for PvP rangers. If it wasnt for the initial influx of Rangers to the PvP servers, theres a good chance we woudnt have seen half the changes we did. So yea, we are bitter that PvP has messed with our PvE, but you know what... we keep at it... and I'd venture to say... we do it better.</P> <P>The few combat arts we could use on the run... reduced to 2. One requiring stealth, and the other a flanking position you cant get in PvP by backpedaling. Just the first one off the top of my head for an example of how PvP has messed with PvE. We  had already had a CA movement nerf, and still had a several CAs we could use on the move... at least til PvP came into being. There is just NO other reason for the change. But you know what? We adjusted and now its not even an issue. I have a level 70 Brig as well, and while he only gets 1 ranged CA, there isnt a movement restriction on his CA. Go figure.</P> <P>There are several other changes to the class as a result of PvP... just because PvP servers exsist, doesnt mean we have to like every change that comes our way as a result of "balance" over there.</P>

[Lyptus]

I do have to say this. My only concern, right now, is solo'ing. I'm not concerned about who's word of pain means more than the other. Its quite obvious that there are quite a few problems we are all concidering. Mostly all the same. PvP for instance, melee is the problem. For me, while solo'ing, or even in a raid, melee is a problem. Now we do have the option to step back in raids and just use the bow. So thats not to big of a problem. But when Solo'ing, in some of these new zones, you can't really bow kite anymore. To many mobs to aggro. So you get stuck fighting toe to toe. Defensive stance, doesn't make you a tank. =D So more than half of our abilities are useless. Now grouping...there is no problem. Just sit back and let everyone else do the work. I gotta tell you though, for those not able to group...it sucks. Even with the new Charm Pet ability, you will still get stuck in melee combat.I'm not blaming PvP for not being able to use CA's on the move either. For me, doesn't matter. Nor am I saying we should go to Iconic Professions. What happened in SWG's...I can't even begin to explain those feelings. Still many great points here. If we aren't going to fix our CA's and melee abilities. Then perhaps the mit/avoidance would help. Because honestly, I don't care if we are classified as wearing chain armor...I still go down just as fast as a caster wearing cloth armor. Its VERY obvious though that there needs to be some sort of fix. If its not going to be to our abilities, then again, give us better avoidance...I'd settle for that.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>I think what you are asking for is already built into the AA lines.  In otherwords, SOE is forcing you to make a choice.  You can have more and better melee skills if you want, but it's going to cost you some of your ranged AAs.  You can also really boost your ranged skills using AA lines, but it's going to cost you the melee AAs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the choice is there.  We as individuals, just have to decide what is best for ourselves.  I was having a discussion in our guild scout channel about this.  I was explaining that Rangers have to basically choose between the STR line and INT line.  An Assassin said, "why don't you just do both?"  When I reminded him that Rangers need the AGI line to get the ranged crits, he said "Oh, forgot."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's kind of sums up our problem.  The Assassins can choose the STR line <STRONG>and</STRONG> the INT line and it benefits them equally across the board, whether they solo, group, or raid.  For us, we have to choose the lines based on what role we play most often.  But, the choice is there to be made.  Is it fair?  Some would say yes, while others would say no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The last thing I want anyone to do is to start messing with our CAs again.  But if they were to change some of our CAs, I would really want more Ranged attacks.  Or better yet, remove the minimum range requirement on our ranged attacks so we can use them while inside melee range.  The mages don't have a minimum range requirement on their ranged attacks, but for some reason they still stand back when they nuke and when they run out of power, they stand back and do nothing.  I guarantee you, that if rangers had the ability to use their ranged attacks from inside minimum range, we'd all be up close and personal the entire fight, right along side the other scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if the minimum range requirement was removed, the PvPers and the soloers would then also be able to use all the tools in their arsenal.  It seems to me the solution is soooo simple, but for some reason SOE will not flinch when it comes to removing the minimum range requirement.  This is what we should be asking for, instead of bickering over the CAs, because it would benefit us all.</DIV>

[Lyptus]

aye, that would be a great solution. changing the range requirement! that would be MONEY =D<div></div>

[Mirdo]

I see posts from 2 or 3 PvP Rangers in this thread. That hardly makes it a class PvP issue. I don't even know the 'pedigree'of the posters, ie can they actually play the class in a PvP environment? What are the top PvP Rangers saying, where are their concerns? I'm not seeing many posting here.It's the same as the DPS issues, some Rangers see a bigger gap than others. There are many factors that contribute to that gap. What I'm not seeing in this thread is any large scale mobilisation by the PvP Ranger community regarding their inability to PvP effectively.Mirdo.<div></div>

[Magius789]

<P>Mronin no where has anybody talked about their uberness so I have no idea where you are getting that from.  All you want to do is cause problems instead of talk about things because of your bitterness and again with the "kid" and "boy" statements, get over yourself already.  So I'm taking taranthiel line of thought and just ignoring you from now on.</P> <P>Atleast some people posted about the original topic instead of turning this into a PvP vs. PvE debate considering we have the same problems the PvE rangers have.  Personally I hate melee that's why I'm a ranger so if they removed our minimum distance and allowed us to use all of our bow attacks ragardless of our range to target I would prefer that over more melee attacks.  I do also wish we could use our CA's while moving considering any good ranger would be able to fire a bow and move at the same time.  Maybe let us do it after a certain lvl so low lvl rangers aren't "experienced" enough to be able to do it but once you get to said lvl you become more experienced and can fire on the run.</P> <P>Yes thorny trap works on players in PvP but its sort of hard to tell the person your fighting to stand on it.  Most of the decent players will see it and just avoid it.  The only real way to use it is before the fight and draw the person to you and hope they walk on it.</P>

[Lyptus]

<div></div>Thats an easy solution to fixing the ranger issue. It is obvious that we all want to play someone who Shoots Wooden Missle's with sharp heads on them at enemies. You are 100% correct when you say that we are all in the same boat together (PvP and PvE). Situations are a bit different, but roughly the same. Players think, mobs just do aggro lol. Just give us the ability to use our Ranged abilities when the fight gets close, and we'll all be happy.Moving and shooting CA's would be amazing! Miss being able to do that.I don't dig auto-attack while moving. And Anyways, regardless of who is on top of the Ranger Scale, as far as personal performance goes, ALL of you are Uber! Rare breeds. PvP and PvE rangers. Its the fun of being a ranger that keeps me playing mostly. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Lyptus on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>The thread has to do with a percieved lack of melee ability, and the desire to rectify that percieved weakness by adding more melee CAs to the class.</P> <P>During the course of the discussion, other suggestions as to how to help Rangers in melee have also been forwarded such as increased mitigation and avoidance.</P> <P>The Ranger AA lines have been discussed as a possible  solution as well.</P> <P>In other words, it has been a helpful thread.</P> <P>Rangers do have different issues, and different play styles.  Raiders, groupers, soloers, PvPers, and PvEers.</P> <P>Insights in one may, or may not, be applicable to others, but I do not see the harm in an open exchange of ideas and suggestions.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 AM</span>

[Teksun]

To be honest, I think those that prefer ranged CA's got the shaft. Every Predator AA line has an extra melee attack. Not one has an extra ranged attack.<div></div>

[Arleonenis]

Well SOE once told us that balance on PvP servers and on PvE will be separate but now it seems this isnt true. Our crapy hawk dive was nerfed when the PvP issue arrised, now PvP issue of melee arrising too... and it isnt any good for all non PvP players...Im not PvP oriented, never really like it and if i want some PvP i go for some shooter, so i play EQ2 on PvE server and enjoy it, i chosed ranger becouse its class that is most interesting to me, to be honest i had so much meleeing in other mmorpgs that im sick of it<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And i like my class (it have some issues but most classes have) but if/when SOE decide to change rangers into copy past assassins on all servers its the end for me and i think for a lot of  other ranger players on PvE servers. If they want rangers into melee class let they do it only on PvP servers and live PvE servers alone.I understand that you PvPers want (and must) to be most effective to have fun (no fun in constant losing) but changing entire class on all servers isnt a good way to go, you will have more fun but on each of you happy there would be 10 others that would be very unhappy or leave for other mmorpg to play ranger/archer they want to play...So could you be so kind and add to all those posts that asks for less ranged more melee that this would only be on PvP servers? You guys will get what you want and we will be happy too, win-win situation from my point of view and it isnt from yours?<div></div>

[Jay]

<P>ROFL, holy crap, I turn my back on this thread for a whole day and half of you spiral off into defensive name-calling and flaming. I thought we were over this kind of thing? </P> <P>PvP or PvE, it makes no difference, we're all rangers here. If you can't handle differing opinions with grace, and conduct yourselves like adults, take it to PMs and save the rest of us from reading such inane drivel. No, I'm not aiming this at the PvPers. </P> <P>Thanks.</P>

[Jeris Nefz]

<DIV>While I have played pvp for a few months, I decided that I didn't want to level up another toon on a different server.  I had some good times there... and some very frustrating.  I would take a guess (from my experience and interpreting what is being said here and other threads) that it isn't that rangers need more melee combat arts.  We have plenty of them.  How effective they are is a different discussion, but we do have them.  I believe a rangers we need more ways of getting out of point blank range or the ability to use are bow skills at point blank.  Slows, stuns and what not would definitely do the trick.  Amazingly, this would help both PvP and PvE.  /Gasp :smileysurprised: :smileyvery-happy: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would that overpower us?  I don't believe so.  It's no more overpowered than a wizzy who can chain root someone or <insert class here> can do.  We need to get in a position to use our attacks, plain and simple.  Before someone says "but they will sniper shot me from 2 m away."  Honestly, that just isn't going to happen.  Anyone in a PvP environment that lets someone stealth and fire sniper shot (roughly 5-6 secs) isn't paying attention and is going to get owned anyway.  Sniper shot (and other long casting, high damage shots) is so easy to interrupt it's stupid.  I can't imagine anyone wanting to use it anywhere near their target, let alone next to it.  If they aren't next to them.. well then they can already use their bow shots.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum up... yes PvE has unquestionably changed because of PvP, but that doesn't mean that rangers on PVP servers should work significantly different than their PvE counterparts.  Let rangers get their targets where they want them... at range.  Either give rangers the tools to get them at a distance, or let them use their arts at point blank range.  Either way, I think both PvE and PvP would be very happy with that outcome.</DIV>

[Lyptus]

<div></div>=/<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lyptus on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Lyptus]

<div></div>I'm a PvE ranger, Befallen,  and I honestly think our Melee lacks...not so much when we pick when to use it. But when we are Forced to use it. Could we all benefit from that issue being looked into,  for something that could benefit everyone. Yes. It has been suggested, that folks try different AA lines. So I will def give that a shot, but I won't get my hopes up to much lol. I've heard many folks say "Like every other Archer Class" I would like to point out, that Rangers here in EQ2 are very much like Rangers in DAOC. Of course, its easier to level up here...if anyone wants to know a head ache, play a ranger in Daoc. Some of the same issue's. Great Ranged attacks, poor AC and Melee. But pretty much the same. I mean if you just stop to think about it, they really are. Of course the game systems are way different. Its ten times easier to level here. And find groups. But I really don't think folks are screaming to make rangers Melee based. I just think they are wanting to beef it up, or something more along those lines. Thats how I feel lol. Again, that would fall into the whole game balancing act...And again, why not just work out the ranged distance...that would be a quicker fix than playing around with our CA's.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lyptus on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lyptus wrote:<div></div>I'm a PvE ranger, Befallen,  and I honestly think our Melee lacks...not so much when we pick when to use it. But when we are Forced to use it. Could we all benefit from that issue being looked into,  for something that could benefit everyone. Yes. It has been suggested, that folks try different AA lines. So I will def give that a shot, but I won't get my hopes up to much lol. I've heard many folks say "Like every other Archer Class" I would like to point out, that Rangers here in EQ2 are very much like Rangers in DAOC. Of course, its easier to level up here...if anyone wants to know a head ache, play a ranger in Daoc. Some of the same issue's. Great Ranged attacks, poor AC and Melee. But pretty much the same. I mean if you just stop to think about it, they really are. Of course the game systems are way different. Its ten times easier to level here. And find groups. But I really don't think folks are screaming to make rangers Melee based. I just think they are wanting to beef it up, or something more along those lines. Thats how I feel lol. Again, that would fall into the whole game balancing act...And again, why not just work out the ranged distance...that would be a quicker fix than playing around with our CA's.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lyptus on <span class="date_text">12-06-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:21 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If you want an easier time there stick to your snare AA's - legshot gives an extra 3% per point, 5 points = 15% extra snare, and I believe its a 40% snare to start (please correct me if im wrong, its been a while) so a 55% to snare for legshot, and vines are even more - I believe thats 50 or 60% - add another 15%.. Perhaps its not the abilities that are lacking, its the choices.. I am going to be on an uphill battle on this saying everythings dandy arent I? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Lyptus]

<div></div>Hey, its all good LoreLady.  I didn't know those facts about the snare. Very cool, thanks for the info =D Its really not as bad as it would seem (I only speak for us PvE players). Rangers still rock. So you're right Lorelady. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Lyptus on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:55 PM</span>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>ROFL, holy crap, I turn my back on this thread for a whole day and half of you spiral off into defensive name-calling and flaming. I thought we were over this kind of thing? </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>PvP or PvE, it makes no difference,</FONT> we're all rangers here. If you can't handle differing opinions with grace, and conduct yourselves like adults, take it to PMs and save the rest of us from reading such inane drivel. No, I'm not aiming this at the PvPers. </P> <P>Thanks.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Jay, most of the time I agree with what you are saying, but this is one of those rare times that Im going to disagree with you. </P> <P>Rangers can solo just fine on PvE, the only place that they might have a problem is solo is PvP. So yeah, theres a huge difference there. When PvP rangers start calling out for more melee arts, I have a problem with that.</P> <P>The OP stated the below in red.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Most players aren't complaining about how much Damage we do. We do ton of damage. Its mostly about lack of Melee. I won't ever complain about my ranged dps or arrow usage. Summon Arrows is quite nice. Something I've never had as a scout class. Every other ranger the other games I've played, had to craft them or shell out coin meant for gear to buy them. The only really big hit is gear selection at higher end. Melee CA's are a bit to weak, in my humble opinion, but I just bow Kite to make up for them.<BR><BR>So Rangers are "Ranged Primary" <BR><BR>I will vote on taking a hit to my DPS, to make up for my melee. Or making us more of a benefit to a group other than hard hitting abilities. Most rangers who make it to high levels feel something that they can't quite put their fingers on...I can't quite either.</FONT></P> <P>Im sorry, but I vote a firm NO, to taking a DPS hit in favor of better melee skills, or better group buffs. Thats not what rangers are about. I dont have any desire to have my class changed to suit the needs a few players that have a different vision of the class. If you cant solo well and dont play on a PvP server, you should prolly rethink the class. If you are on a PvP server.... Oh Well. I dont give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you cant solo well against other players, cause Im sure you have your moments when you catch a squishy with his back turned. Maybe you PvPers should try and pick  your fights rather then end up in a melee situation to start with.</P> <P>Most players might not be complaining about our DPS, but there are plenty of rangers that dont have access to certain bows that might have something different to say about how much damage we can dish out.</P><FONT color=#ff0000> <P><BR></P></FONT>

[Taekwondo]

<DIV>Ok, I understand that some of the guys on the PvE servers think that PvP has changed the class for the worse, and you may be right in most cases (the whole moving / shooting thing is one of the biggest in my opinion), hell I may even agree with you on most of that, but that's not what this thread is about.  It's about trying to find ways to better the way rangers are now for all, not just PvE, not just PvP, but all of us.  So, if a PvP ranger gives some example about the way things work for him / her, instead of flaming, can't we all just learn from it and try to figure out how to move forward from there?  Like it or not (and obviously some of you do not) PvP is here to stay.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that the minimum range thing should be changed (believe me, I have prayed for that since I started PvPing), but I don't think SOE will do that right now.  Not enough people concerned about it, and it really doesn't have that big of an impact on the class...unless you PvP a lot and don't have the gear to solo.  And really, solo PvP is dead now anyway, at least on Nagafen.  I see a few Qeynosians out once in a while trying to catch the errant Freeporter by themselves, but that hardly ever happens anymore.  There isn't really anything that can be done to improve the PvP aspect of the ranger now because that would mean there would have to be a way to make use of the skills to make sure they are actually useful.  And I'm not crying when I say this, it's just the way things have gone on my server.  There are no single PvP situations anymore.  I got two kills last night and one didn't count because the chick saw me coming and engaged a mob before I could engage her so my kill didn't count.  The other I got in Everfrost because I happened to catch the last 70 necro running through as part of a PvP raid and burn him down before his friends could turn around and catch me.  Those are the only two solo players I have seen in at least 3 weeks, and I have played at least 10 hours a day for most of that time.  The fact is, Freeport (they don't get rangers, just to clear that up in case you were wondering) doesn't go anywhere alone, and not because they are necessarily scared to do 1v1, but more because they seem to grasped the idea that if they roam around in packs of 12-18 level 70's, they can reach endgame PvP gear in no time.  With a raid force like that, you can literally mow down anyone who gets in your way.  And they do it EVERY night, so they are good at it.  Qeynos doesn't seem to like PvP that much, and the ones that do are few and far between.  I hear more and more that Qeynos is "waiting until we're all 70 with raid gear, then we'll get'em..." but in the meantime, we keep getting owned and Freeport just gets stronger.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, I'm rambling now, but the point is that there's really nothing that can be done IMHO to improve my PvP experience since it will basically be just like my PvE experience from now on.  Yes, I would love to have lower minimum range, lower cast / recast timers, etc.  but it's no different from what every other ranger wants really.  I soloed in Barren Sky last night for a bit doing PvE to ding 68, and I was able to tank the normal 66-67 mobs there and even do the single up arrows, although that was a bit harder (obviously).  I found that using HO's in melee can really increase your DPS (on the order of around 50-60 more DPS), which I had never known before because I never had a way to parse myself while solo.  The difference is pretty dramatic when you look at the numbers, and it's noticeable too when you lead off with Stealthy Fire and then run through all your melee CA's using the HO for each one.  I don't know if I am making myself clear there, but let me say it this way, try using ONLY HO's when you melee if you haven't already.  You'll get some really good buffs most of the time.  Why didn't I use this  before?  Because HO's do not work in PvP.  How's that for suck? lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, really what needs to be changed about the ranger?  I'm not sure anything does, but I would always love to see "improvements" like we have discussed here.</DIV>

[Lyptus]

Terriblades. Those that are coming back to the first post...look through all the post. There really is a timeline of discussion here. The fact is...it really is easy to solo. Thats how the game was stuctured. Seriously. I've said it before but not here, I solo'd from 1-50 currently  60....questing, kiting. Maybe the occasional grouping. That was no sweat. I've been playing the game for quite some time...on and off. Proudly wear Dedicated lol Don't quote a PvE player then come after PvP'ers. Just follow the timeline of the thread, and add something constructive, rather than throwing stones. Seriously, just take the time to read...the rest...of the posts.<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<P>Im not sure who died and left you in charge of the ranger forums, but I'll try and explain myself.</P> <P>Im not "coming after" PvPers, I simply dont like PvP or what its done to the ranger class since its came into being.</P> <P>My last post was a 2 part post, the first part for Jay, the second was getting back on topic with what the original poster had said. Im sorry you couldnt take the time to see that. As for reading all the posts, yeah I did that. I rarely comment on any thread unless Ive read the whole thing.</P> <P>If I wanted stronger melee skills, I'd play my brigand, my assassin or my recently started swashy. Im quite happy with rangers at the moment. Granted, I have both T8 ammo, and Sarnak so my dps isnt an issue. My ability to solo isnt an issue. Raid geared or not, a well played ranger shouldnt have an issue on a PvE server IF they are soloing solo content. So thats only leaves issues with rangers in PvP. Personally I dont want to more changes to this class based on PvP.</P> <P>Finally, I think I'll add, your post had added nothing constructive to the topic. Perhaps you should take some of your own advise.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Taekwondo wrote:<div>Ok, I understand that some of the guys on the PvE servers think that PvP has changed the class for the worse, and you may be right in most cases (the whole moving / shooting thing is one of the biggest in my opinion), hell I may even agree with you on most of that, but that's not what this thread is about.  It's about trying to find ways to better the way rangers are now for all, not just PvE, not just PvP, but all of us.  So, if a PvP ranger gives some example about the way things work for him / her, instead of flaming, can't we all just learn from it and try to figure out how to move forward from there?  Like it or not (and obviously some of you do not) PvP is here to stay.  </div> <div> </div></blockquote>SNIP<hr size="2" width="100%">You dident need to put all the rest of it your first paragraph is all you needed <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyways - there IS CHANGE in things you can do, perhaps you should have read my post about snares..Ok lets look what we have to help PVPers!!Enhance fettering poison - increases trigger chance by 3% per rank - 15% total..    Fettering poison (common) slows target by 32% - 3 times per minute.. So a 0.05% chance to snare - still not bad considering you can 5% on a 7s delay bow = 12% chance to snare (rounded up)   Enhance Lunging joust - 0.4s per rank - 5 ranks  so an extra 2 seconds.. so 4s to hold someone in place for a full durationLegshot - 5s total reduction - easy way to keep someone perminatly snaredBefriend animal - Extra dps/tankageExtra duration for hawk.. AMAZING for dueling!! - making ppl loose target1! - 10s extra duration makes alot of diff (cept when facing sk's)I dunno about you - but these seem like some powerfull PVP tools, I dont know what your moaning about..</div>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Taekwondo wrote:<div>Ok, I understand that some of the guys on the PvE servers think that PvP has changed the class for the worse, and you may be right in most cases (the whole moving / shooting thing is one of the biggest in my opinion), hell I may even agree with you on most of that, but that's not what this thread is about.  It's about trying to find ways to better the way rangers are now for all, not just PvE, not just PvP, but all of us.  So, if a PvP ranger gives some example about the way things work for him / her, instead of flaming, can't we all just learn from it and try to figure out how to move forward from there?  Like it or not (and obviously some of you do not) PvP is here to stay.  </div> <div> </div></blockquote>SNIP<hr size="2" width="100%">You dident need to put all the rest of it your first paragraph is all you needed <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyways - there IS CHANGE in things you can do, perhaps you should have read my post about snares..Ok lets look what we have to help PVPers!!Enhance fettering poison - increases trigger chance by 3% per rank - 15% total..    Fettering poison (common) slows target by 32% - 3 times per minute.. So a 0.05% chance to snare - still not bad considering you can 5% on a 7s delay bow = 12% chance to snare (rounded up)   Enhance Lunging joust - 0.4s per rank - 5 ranks  so an extra 2 seconds.. so 4s to hold someone in place for a full durationLegshot - 5s total reduction - easy way to keep someone perminatly snaredBefriend animal - Extra dps/tankageExtra duration for hawk.. AMAZING for dueling!! - making ppl loose target1! - 10s extra duration makes alot of diff (cept when facing sk's)I dunno about you - but these seem like some powerfull PVP tools, I dont know what your moaning about..</div><hr></blockquote>Hey, I'm not saying there aren't enhancements already that help in PvP, but if you don't play on a PvP server, then you may not know that every combat art is modified for PvP.  In short, if you look at what your CA's are currently doing on PvE and drop the effectiveness of them by about 75%, and then factor in the unpredictability of a target that can think and act as quickly (or quicker) than you, you'll understand.  I have only recently heard about befriend animal and hawk dive, so I haven't picked them up yet, but I will the next time I am on and give them a try.  And I'm not sure what the perception is of PvP, but it's not like the enemy just stands there waiting to be ganked lol, people leap around you in circles, use aggro reducers to force you to lose target, taunt to force you to change target, etc.  It's a very confusing and frustrating experience sometimes, but it's still a lot of fun hehe.<div></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<DIV>I certainly do not want a Ranger to become a melee class, or think that Rangers need more melee CAs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's true, we are toast in most melee encounters in PvP, but as some here have suggested the other way to keep at distance is snares/roots, which should be upgraded to Adept III (or Mater if possible), and to use the AA lines to increase the effectiveness and duration of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the same vein, trying to boost your chance of ranged crits may also be an effective strategy, as well as the 'survival' line of AAs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, we can't get it all, but by concentrating in those areas, we may be able to keep them at range at least somewhat more effectively, thus weakening them to the point where when they do close we *might* be able to win a melee fight or two.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, I've gotten some useful advice from this discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And please remember that PvP Rangers are not your enemy.  We are Rangers.  We may have different problems and concerns, but we would not be coming here for discussion and advice if we did not respect the opinions and experience of the greater Ranger community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your concerns are also our concerns, because PvP Rangers are also PvE Rangers, and what affects the class in PvE also affects us as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At any rate, I thank those that had helpful suggestions, and over the course of trial and error, I will see if they come to fruition.</DIV>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>PvP or PvE, it makes no difference,</FONT> we're all rangers here.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Jay, most of the time I agree with what you are saying, but this is one of those rare times that Im going to disagree with you.</P> <P>Rangers can solo just fine on PvE, the only place that they might have a problem is solo is PvP. So yeah, theres a huge difference there. When PvP rangers start calling out for more melee arts, I have a problem with that.</P><FONT color=#ff0000> <P></P></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LOL, sorry Terri - I didn't mean "PvE or PvP doesn't make any difference in the application of our skillset." I meant that whether you play on an PvP or a PvE server, you're a ranger first and foremost. Basically my way of saying "knock it off and stop bashing each other, we're on the same team here."</P> <P>Silly me, trying to remind ppl that this is a game! LOL! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Jeris Nefz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Silly me, trying to remind ppl that this is a game! LOL! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>For Shame!  How could you?!?!?!  =D<BR>

[Jay]

<DIV>ROFL, I know. This is serious business!! </DIV>

[Lyptus]

To Terriblades,The constructive part of my reply was advising you to read the time line of events here. So yes, it was constructive. If you can follow the series of events here, its really ended up ( to the best of my understanding) making it so we can use our ranged abilities are closer ranges. PvP or PvE ranger, makes no difference. Regardless if you are the best of rangers, or maybe the most casual, thats something everyone can benefit from...is it not?Still, if you missed that part, I do apologize, its there. It started out with melee. It really did. Everyone has an opinion, this is true, so feel free to add yours. So Now I'll ask you, and anyone else, does anyone else feel we shouldn't have the ranges at which we can use our bows adjusted? Or once again, the ability to use some of our Ranged CA's on the move? <div></div>

[Taekwondo]

After considering the minimum range thing for a while, I think it would work best if they did something like this (just my opinion): 0m - 1m = Can't use ranged (kinda hard to get a shot off if there's a person close enough push the bow to the side) >1m - <5m = 75% dmg penalty >5m - <10m = 50% dmg penalty >10m = current settings Penalty %'s are just the first numbers that came to me, so don't flame me about them.  This would give us the option of being able to use ranged without causing too much grief in the rest of the world I think, and we would still be able to use our melee at no penalty. And as far as moving / shooting goes, I'm all for being able to do it, it's absurd to that we can't, imo.  Even if they applied a similar penalty system to it (because aim might not be as good when running) or reduced movement speed while making the shot (to justify no penalties to aim) it would still be better than having to be stationary.  They could even do this with AA's at some point, perhaps decreasing the penalty as you put more points into the abilities. Anyone else notice that the Ranger boards have about 3x as much stuff going on as the other scout boards? lol <div></div>

[Prandtl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taekwondo wrote:<BR><BR>0m - 1m = Can't use ranged (kinda hard to get a shot off if there's a person close enough push the bow to the side)<BR>>1m - <5m = 75% dmg penalty<BR>>5m - <10m = 50% dmg penalty<BR>>10m = current settings<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No way Jose.   That would negate the advantage of being able to stand in the sweet spot behind a mob and be able to use both melee and ranged CA's against tanked mobs.   I know you said not to flame you on the numbers, so I'm not.  I'm flaming on the total concept!</DIV>

[TerriBlades]

Just to be clear for all the post [Removed for Content] out there. My comments are in red.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Lyptus wrote:<BR>To Terriblades,<BR><BR>The constructive part of my reply was advising you to read the time line of events here. So yes, it was constructive. If you can follow the series of events here, its really ended up ( to the best of my understanding) making it so we can use our ranged abilities are closer ranges. PvP or PvE ranger, makes no difference.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>That might be how you saw your post, but its really nothing more then a holier then thou post. I can certainly follow the thread, but I guess that you missed the part where you were talking about melee based combat arts... oh I donno, just two posts above mine. You have your version of constructive, I have mine. Lets just leave it at that.</FONT><BR><BR>Regardless if you are the best of rangers, or maybe the most casual, thats something everyone can benefit from...is it not?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Making the class stronger as a whole is something everyone can benefit from, and I have no issues with that, but when PvE changes occur that are a direct result of "balance" for PvP. I get a bit irritated. Thats only compounded when I see requests for other changes that would greatly benefit PvP. Bottom line, Im tired of changes that are direct results of PvP that would otherwise have no real issues with on PvE.</FONT></P> <P><BR>Still, if you missed that part, I do apologize, its there. It started out with melee. It really did. Everyone has an opinion, this is true, so feel free to add yours.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>It would seem not, cause I did add my opinion and you chastised me for it. Yet your entire post had no real bearing on the topic, and only revovled around HOW I should post, and how I should follow the flow of the thread. And again, thats just what I was doing.</FONT><BR><BR>So Now I'll ask you, and anyone else, does anyone else feel we shouldn't have the ranges at which we can use our bows adjusted? Or once again, the ability to use some of our Ranged CA's on the move?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Rangers being able to fire CAs from point blank range wouldnt really be an issue. Its not like we can unload all our heavy damage from the front of a mob. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>However, since our CAs arent "instant" casts, Im sure the next issue would be with interrupts and how often it happens.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>As far as using our bow arts on the move. I'd very much like to have several, if not all of those back. However, I play on a PvE server, so no one else would really be affected by it unless it was a /duel. That being said, PvP servers would be outraged over this, and I would have to agree that it would make the scales very unbalanced. Being able to root, slow, snare... maintain a safe distance, and deal damage while keeping that "untouchable" distance would definately overpower the class in that enviroment.</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>Prandtl wrote:<div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Taekwondo wrote:0m - 1m = Can't use ranged (kinda hard to get a shot off if there's a person close enough push the bow to the side)>1m - <5m = 75% dmg penalty>5m - <10m = 50% dmg penalty>10m = current settings <hr> </blockquote>No way Jose.   That would negate the advantage of being able to stand in the sweet spot behind a mob and be able to use both melee and ranged CA's against tanked mobs.   I know you said not to flame you on the numbers, so I'm not.  I'm flaming on the total concept!</div><hr></blockquote>Ok, so make it only count for frontal attacks then.  <span>:smileytongue:  If there can be bonuses to rear / flanking attacks, certainly it shouldn't be too hard to do this for a frontal assault.  Why flame the whole concept when you could just as easily modify it? lol</span><div></div>

[Taekwondo]

<blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p><font color="#ff0000">As far as using our bow arts on the move. I'd very much like to have several, if not all of those back. However, I play on a PvE server, so no one else would really be affected by it unless it was a /duel. That being said, PvP servers would be outraged over this, and I would have to agree that it would make the scales very unbalanced. Being able to root, slow, snare... maintain a safe distance, and deal damage while keeping that "untouchable" distance would definately overpower the class in that enviroment.</font> </p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>I would have to disagree a bit on this.  As it stands in PvP, we are the ONLY ones (besides casters, of course) that HAVE to stand still while using our abilities.  All the casters get some form of heals or pets to take aggro except maybe Wizards, and I think they get some kind of in-zone teleport thing that moves them a good distance away.  I could be wrong about this, so please correct me if I am.  All other fighter / scout classes can (and do) move around during a PvP fight while using their CA's, and it's extremely difficult to keep them targeted especially when there are other mobs around.  There is nothing more frustrating than standing there getting beaten on while trying to target, hitting tab only to find that you just annihilated a level 12 scorpion.  Most of the people who PvP know that it's easy to kill a ranger if you can close to melee range and then hop in and out while we try to keep enough distance to use the bow or stay close enough to melee (which is pointless anyway).  So, while it might make some people cry for us to be able to move and shoot, if they put some penalties on it, it might not cause too much grief. <div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV>Its forums ate my post. I'll try again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can disagree with it all you like, its not going to change the fact that being able to kill something, while not taking any damage, is indeed overpowering. Melee arts can be cast on the run, but you also have to be close enough to use those. Now if you flip that, and let rangers cast on the run, all they have to do is stay outside melee range, and they kill everything. Even better then that, they have zero down time, as they prolly lost little or no health. Thats overpowering. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for your previous post about penalties. I think not. Anytime something is going to result in lost DPS, thats a bad idea in my opinion. And yes even having to joust is going to cost you precious time, and lost DPS. Lost DPS = BAD IDEA.</DIV><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class=date_text>12-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 PM</span>

[Lyptus]

<div></div>Terriblades...Oh silly me...Tee Hee...Tee Hee.  Would it please you if I said I was sorry If I hurt your feelings?I thought about it at least...But honestly...you and me...aren't really debating anything, just throwing s*** back and forth. So I'll be the first to offer over my best Arrow. X--------> Just for you.Like Jay said, we are all Rangers here. We wear a members only Jacket. Now about the point blank shooting, there should be a focus just like any caster. Work that skill up some. lol. Interrupts shouldn't change one bit I would imagine. I know we have a point blank shot. A timer like that would be golden lol.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lyptus on <span class=date_text>12-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:27 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

Atleast you arent throwing  her the |3====> lol

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>Atleast you arent throwing  her the |3====> <BR>lol<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Very funny... you realize you two are getting /shudders "off topic". :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Anyways Lyptus, no harm done.<BR></P>

[Lyptus]

Wow...didn't even realize, cold chills from that one. lol.Think thats funny...At work (I work in car insurance) I thought this Policy holder kept sayin, my "Pooper" should be on the Policy. How can you not laugh at that?She meant Trooper, tickled me pretty good there.<div></div>

[Taekwondo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <DIV>Its forums ate my post. I'll try again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can disagree with it all you like, its not going to change the fact that being able to kill something, while not taking any damage, is indeed overpowering. Melee arts can be cast on the run, but you also have to be close enough to use those. Now if you flip that, and let rangers cast on the run, <FONT color=#ff0000>all they have to do is stay outside melee range, and they kill everything.</FONT> Even better then that, they have zero down time, as they prolly lost little or no health. Thats overpowering.  <FONT color=#ccff00>(Unless, of course, you get caught by whatever you are firing arrows at.  I'm not talking about EQ1 kiting here, but even that wasn't without the possibility of death, I am talking about being able to move and shoot at the same time.  Mobs run faster than you do once you are in combat unless you are sprinting, how is this overpowering?)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for your previous post about penalties. I think not. Anytime something is going to result in lost DPS, thats a bad idea in my opinion. And yes even having to joust is going to cost you precious time, and lost DPS. Lost DPS = BAD IDEA.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <SPAN class=date_text>12-07-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:19 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>...if we CAN'T stay out of melee range (in PvP), we get owned, and if we have a CHANCE to stay out of melee range and still be able to fire something a bit more useful than auto, why would you be against that?  You could always do things the way you do them now and just stand there and fire your arrows at no penalty, but you would have the OPTION of running and shooting WITH a penalty instead of just running or just shooting.  And you're telling me there's a downside to that?  Man, this is a tough crowd.