Soe and Rangers Perhaps they just don't get it..

[Mono]

<DIV>Well i'm not usually one to complain. However Devs never respond to the ranger community even the ones who ask nicely. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However it seems they've never quite got to grips with the fact we do most of our damage from ranged. I hardly ever melee if i can help it auto ftw or ranged simple.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When chatting to an assasin in raid last nite i found out he's got a spell lvl 55 concealment that throws him into stealth and allows him to get off all his big assasin hits and after each attack it puts him back into stealth. I thought wow i'd love something like that instead of stealthing hitting focus aim going to use selection only to find my stealths been broken and now i'm trying to get off as many CA's within my 10second allotment /sigh. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concealment surely owns on pvp .. but hey don't nerf that assasins are melee combat system is probably easier to work with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers are the only peeps who've got a different combat system in game.. healers heal Casters cast everyone else melee's except the god old ranger. And they've never quite understood that or perhaps its been a challenge to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I look at some of the new AA's and i'm meant to be thinking hey thats great but infact i'm thinking isn't this just fixing the problem thats already there.. take stream of arrows for example i'm having to spend aa on a spell thats never lived up to what its meant to have since it got nerfed and now i spend aa on it to try and get it remotly useful unless i want a coffee that is..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I so accept that being ranged is an advatage at times and i don't tend to complain about my dps as i do ok most of the time although i've had to work like other rangers to get good gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However Adornments for bows suck there's many more options for Throwing weapons with 10.0 dps adornement for throwing weapons we just get a + pierec or slashing dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i guess my biggest gripe now paladins and Shadownknights can use bows and there's no ranger only bows so come raid and using a fair dkp system alot of rangers are gonna be screwed if it wasn't bad enought having to compete with zerkers who think they need a fabled bow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last but not least i don't think i've ever heard a dev comment on the ranger ... ever apart from the one who offered us a great option with the hawk dive and letting us get off our stealth attacks a bit like concelment i guess but pull it for PVP reasons no doubt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly think they've never quite got to grips with bow combat nor have they really bothered seems they skirt round the issues and think well they melee as well so just give them adornments on that.. i'm a ranger... BOW  ARROWS : )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oK well thats my rant off. I still love my ranger and my post isn't about dps i'm fine there thanks its about the uniqueness of rangers and how we're just getting quick fixes to long term problems and always being left out cos in my personal opinion they just can't be bothered to address the ranged combat issues let alone fix them. And i'm not asking for them to whoop my dps up i'm just asking for a few simple problems to be ironed out like stealth breaking and adornements and stream of arrows and ranger only bows would be nice.  Rangers are quite literally the running joke of eq2.. everyone has a joke about rangers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one would just like a dev to comment but i know that will never happen as they either don't have a soloution for Rangers or it would compromise there plas for PVP.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and as for Gods i'm agnostic.. thanks soe.. i'll just have to wait and see.. i bet if u ran a poll you'd find more high end rangers scratching their heads as to which gods actually useful  again melee get alot more options and crit hit boosts bla bla bla as oppose to our one Tunare rangerd dps buff and then a few heals. As rightly pointed out by another ranger heals wouldn't be such a bad option.. but we don't even get a cloak that helps ranger crit or dps yet melee do..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i'm agnostic until you bring me a god that has RANGED options cos i RANGE.. bow arrows your know..!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG I KEEP ADDING TO THIS POST COS THERES SO MANY ISSUES..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arrows .. i've got ichorstrand and any ranger who has it or Tari bow breathes a sigh or relief it makes a huge difference being able to summon arrows every 5min.. But for those raid rangers like me before i had ichorstrand.. my god arrows cost a fortune with many Guild banks having to support the ranger. I don't think the trueshot blessing is any use at all to the raid ranger especially as i heard there no zone.. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. anyhow's thanks again..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by mononoko on <SPAN class=date_text>11-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:19 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by mononoko on <SPAN class=date_text>11-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:24 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by mononoko on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:27 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<DIV>well said what more can be addeded ? nothing much imo .. rangers still are mighty in numbers but lowest in dev help <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for concealment </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concealment > Punch Blade (1.5x damage) > Gorestrike (2x damage) > Deathly Blade (2.5x damage) > Assassinate (3x damage)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>enough said really :smileymad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concealment is EXACTLY HOW HAWK DIVE SHOULD BE !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mono]

<DIV>in fact the more i think about it the more wound up i'm getting so i'll stop..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But they couldn't even put a cloak in that helps our ranged dps.. yet casters get a spell dmg cloak healers get a heal cloak melee get a str cloak proc and melee cloak..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>again because we melee which isn't our principle attack they think that will suffice. Again ignoring out combat arts because melee is an easier option for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with Gods assasins an others get massive dps options cos there are massive MELEE dps options..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we have to spend ages justyfying what god we're using and even draw a conclusion that heals might be remotly useful. If i did choose tunare for the limited ranged option my cloak would still be a healers cloak unless i get a crafted one. I even did the quest from Edge in mistmoore catacombes and still my cloak had melee boost on it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So list wise.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dev's don't respond to the ranger community never have.</DIV> <DIV>Good dps is do-able but takes time to get to know the ranger without a doubt in my mind having played all characters its the hardest to play and get good results</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We don't get a ranged cloak</DIV> <DIV>The god selection is limited infact brell is teasing me but still sucks for ranged</DIV> <DIV>Our AA's are good poison line and double shot but others are just fixing problems we already had</DIV> <DIV>There is still no soloution to our hawk and we we're offered/teased then it was taken away from us</DIV> <DIV>We have to compete with every class non mage healer for bows now</DIV> <DIV>Arrows still cost a fortune unless your lucky like me and other raid rangers and guild banks are having to support raid rangers here.</DIV> <DIV>Adornments aren't very good for bows but if i had a throwing weapon it would be.</DIV> <DIV>And i don't melee simple.. don't care what other rangers do i only use ember strike rangers blade and  master strike ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Despite all this believe it or not i love my Ranger really do. I'm just saying soe don't do us any favours at all. Even the rain caller hq i loved it i even love the bow but why not do a T7 ranger only HQ? for a bow or class specific i mean claymore you catered for the melee community Healers mages hell even the bruisers.. but where was my Claymore bow.. oh thats right i melee as well don't i.??? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also assasins get haste and dps buff.. one being bloodline spell..36% at adept III. where's my dps buff?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>back to loving my ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by mononoko on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:16 AM</span>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mononoko wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>having played all characters its the hardest to play and get good results</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>thats the only thing i disagree with i would put coercer top of that list but the rest , spot on .<BR>

[Mono]

<DIV>ok just seen cloak of valour it seems it works off ranged.. still .. umm yeah. /hides</DIV>

[Jayad]

<P>The assassin skill you should really be jealous of is the level 65 one, Exacting.  It's a temp buff which improves damage & re-use timers for all CAs under a native cast timer of 1 min.  (Basically, the DOTs for an assassin and a  few others)  It's an important buff whereas the ranger gets the bird (literally).  Concealment is needed in order to get all the assassin backstabs off.  (It also reduces hate gain)  Rangers get far fewer stealth attacks so it's not really necessary, plus your cast timers are so long that it would be dumb for you.  Concealment doesn't last very long.</P> <P>On the other hand I'm not impressed with the assassin EOF AA tree.  I think the Ranger one is better.  So I think that will even things slightly.</P>

[magnemmar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mononoko wrote:<BR> <DIV>However Adornments for bows suck there's many more options for Throwing weapons with 10.0 dps adornement for throwing weapons we just get a + pierec or slashing dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i guess my biggest gripe now paladins and Shadownknights can use bows and there's no ranger only bows so come raid and using a fair dkp system alot of rangers are gonna be screwed if it wasn't bad enought having to compete with zerkers who think they need a fabled bow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just because SKs and Paladins can use bows doesn't mean that they'll want to spend DKP on them when their abilities are far better used from melee range.</P> <P>Plus, as you said, there are more options for Throwing Weapons, so why would a Paladin or an SK bother with a bow when they could just throw ranged weapons?</P>

[kidpaul]

<div></div>So I looked at the broker today for adorments only and out of 142 pages i found 6 items that are for bow I found 4 pages for throwing and I for melee tempers only it was 71 pages not counting bindings, handles, pommels, handguards and what not else there is for melee.now the cheapest for bow was a +2 dmg slash priced at 29gp the second was also a 2+ dmg slash priced at 29gp the third was a +2 dmg slash priced at 30gp and then it toke a leap to the real good stuff it was a scintillating +12 slash dmg priced at 4p 80gp then another +12 dmg priced at 7p and a +12 piercing also at 8p, 40gp. none of scintillating for melee was close to the pricing of the ranged cant remember all the effect poison procs, heat dmg, slow and what other goodies they get like the righteous life proc or phantom power tap was priced higher then 60gp however the people using throwing had to cough up around 3p at most.Sure this can relate to the fact that not everyone has found their books yet and the amount of tradeskillers in one category but still 6 items out of 142 PAGES and you can easily find lvl 40 Lambent tempers priced around the cheapest lvl 10 shimmering bow adorment I cant help but feel a little neglected since we only get to choose from slash and dmg where atleast the throwing has atleast slash, crushing, piercing, phanom power tap, and divine but again this can be becuase noone on our server has found the book that can make something else then slashing or piercing for bows if there is something else.About that hawk it was just a beta note and not everything makes it into the final cut. lets just hope they didn't scrub the idea they had about the hawk change for good.Oh yeah forgot to meantion that if a bow drops on a raid Im on. Im pretty got [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure that our guild leader would make sure that it will be ranger biding war first and no other gets to bid unless all rangers decline. unlike some other guild our leader seam to like us rangers since he keeps 3 of us around. but lately I have been the only ranger showing up to raid cause the other to play other toons or dont have time to raid.<div></div><p>Message Edited by kidpaul on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:14 PM</span>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> magnemmar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Just because SKs and Paladins can use bows doesn't mean that they'll want to spend DKP on them when their abilities are far better used from melee range.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Plus, as you said, there are more options for Throwing Weapons, so <STRONG>why would a Paladin or an SK bother with a bow</STRONG> when they could just throw ranged weapons?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Why not?   Better range, better stats, and more damage then thrown weapons.  And they need something for the ranged slot anyways, so why not use a bit of dkp?

[Torrin]

Personally I'd like to see Rain Caller as a Ranger-Only Bow... everything about it including the HQ to get just screams RANGER..But no.. everyone who can use a bow can get it.. and use it..  In PvP It's invaluable.. sure it might not hit as hard as the Raid bows rangers can get.. but Come on, Storm Arrow owns face in PvP.. Nothing like finally having our own long-ranged Stun..Give the Brigs and Assassins a taste of their own medicine now..<div></div>

[Boramyr]

<DIV>Well I don't normally post on threads like this, as you can see I don't really post much at all.  This thread just caught me in the right mood I guess.  The problem is not that SOE doesn't get our class.   The fundamental flaw of your argument is that YOU do not get our class.   Rangers are NOT a 100% ranged class, never have been (not even in archetypal fiction) never will be.   You want to play an ARCHER that does nothing but shoot a bow, but that isn't what we are.  Almost 1/3 of our combat arts are Melee and our biggest dps combat art is melee.   I like the fact that I can stay at ranged if the AE's get too nasty and not loose too much DPS but if you want to play your class to the best of your ability then you need to dance in and out of melee range.    If you need to gripe, gripe that EQ2 doesn't have an archer class so you can stay at the back of the fight all the time like some sort of namby pamby mage (nm they can't do that either because of PBAE's and such).   Grab a sword get into the fight and learn to use ALL your class not just part of it and then gripe that you are lacking.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I'm not saying that there isn't an issue or two, and assassin's are having their time in the sun like we did back in DoF, and then Summoners just after us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the Dev responses, other than the Hawk Dive debacle the last time I saw a Dev come into this forum he came in with absolute evidence from SOE's world parse and was told by at least five people that his numbers were WRONG and he was a LIAR.  Hell I wouldn't come back either.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kurrash Darkstalker, 70 Ranger, Antonia Bayle</DIV><p>Message Edited by Boramyr on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 PM</span>

[xandez]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Boramyr wrote:<div></div> <div> Rangers are NOT a 100% ranged class, never have been (not even in archetypal fiction) never will be.   <font color="#ff9900">Agree to this...</font>You want to play an ARCHER that does nothing but shoot a bow, but that isn't what we are.  Almost 1/3 of our combat arts are Melee and our biggest dps combat art is melee.  <font color="#ff9900">But now... Biggest DPS combat art is MELEE?? Sir, are you on crack or sumthing? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> I like the fact that I can stay at ranged if the AE's get too nasty and not loose too much DPS but if you want to play your class to the best of your ability then you need to dance in and out of melee range.   <font color="#ff9900"></font><font color="#ff9900">Well, not really necessary... of course if you want to try to stay max cast, then ok.</font> If you need to gripe, gripe that EQ2 doesn't have an archer class so you can stay at the back of the fight all the time like some sort of namby pamby mage (nm they can't do that either because of PBAE's and such).   Grab a sword get into the fight and learn to use ALL your class not just part of it and then gripe that you are lacking.  <font color="#ff9900">Wheeeeee..... I dont think the OP meant this in his post. I think he is meleeing also, did you get his point?</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Now I'm not saying that there isn't an issue or two, and assassin's are having their time in the sun like we did back in DoF, and then Summoners just after us. <font color="#ff9900">Nothing wrong with assassins doing nice dmg. Just that why should we suffer so much from the ability to do ranged dmg? Because of PvP? What about mages and priests then? They can spell/heal from a distance too...</font> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div> <div> </div> <div>As for the Dev responses, other than the Hawk Dive debacle the last time I saw a Dev come into this forum he came in with absolute evidence from SOE's world parse and was told by at least five people that his numbers were WRONG and he was a LIAR.  Hell I wouldn't come back either. <font color="#ff9900">Well, the DEV:s do read even the ranger forums, im pretty sure about it. But do you think that they will answer if you demand it? And whay should they? They are the DEV:s</font> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900">++Xan</font>

[Teksun]

Of course the Dev's read the Ranger forums. But it's like going to the seedy part of town: They sneak in, take a look and leave. They SURE as heck don't announce their presence, we are a mean group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<div><blockquote><hr>Boramyr wrote:<div></div> <div> Almost 1/3 of our combat arts are Melee and our biggest dps combat art is melee.   </div><hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote>What about Sniper Shot? Mine at my level and at Adept I maxes at 5299. There's also Stealthy Fire, which tops out for me at 2702. Both of these are ranged combat abilities.Dire Blade caps for me at 1386.  None of my other melee attacks even come close to this number. Now ignore the actual numbers for a second and study the ratios. One ranged attack is nearly twice my highest melee. The other is like 4 times the damage. I just don't see where you're getting that our biggest DPS combat art is melee. Even before the change to make rangers rangers from the get-go, our heavy hitters have always been our ranged attacks, and our melee abilities sub-par.</div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boramyr wrote:<BR> <DIV> Almost 1/3 of our combat arts are Melee and our biggest dps combat art is melee.   <BR></DIV><BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What about Sniper Shot? Mine at my level and at Adept I maxes at 5299. There's also Stealthy Fire, which tops out for me at 2702. Both of these are ranged combat abilities.<BR><BR>Dire Blade caps for me at 1386.  None of my other melee attacks even come close to this number. Now ignore the actual numbers for a second and study the ratios. One ranged attack is nearly twice my highest melee. The other is like 4 times the damage. <BR><BR>I just don't see where you're getting that our biggest DPS combat art is melee. Even before the change to make rangers rangers from the get-go, our heavy hitters have always been our ranged attacks, and our melee abilities sub-par.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You might want to note that he said highest <EM>dps</EM> CA.....not highest <EM>damage</EM> CA.<BR>

[Katsugen]

<P>Yup blade is our highest dps CA. Given the cast time and the total damage it is the highest for a single target. Infact sniper shot is just about in the same boat as stream as far as a raider is concerned.</P> <P>I agree with the OP to an extent. There are no doubt alot of dev's that work on the items/skills/buffs etc etc.. and over and over it seems that not all of them understand what is useful for rangers. Our class gears/buffs quite different from other scouts, and sometimes I'm unsure they realize that.</P> <P>We should make a list of all the new items in this expansion that have +pierce +slash +crush on them. This to me, is not only a slap in our face, but a clear indication SOE has dev's creating items they don't realize are useless to rangers. Argue all you want about rangers needing to do melee dps as well, but I see absolutely no reason why there can't be +ranged on the items as well.</P> <P>I don't have complaints about our dps, I do have complaints about how we manage our dps. The reason SOE is having trouble balancing our class is we follow different rules in achieving dps. I wouldn't expect to see ranger balanced until all the dev's figure out how we work.</P> <P>- Katsugen</P> <P> </P>

[Verm75]

There is no point in really spending that much time in rangers. Were the only class in game that does ranged damage with a bow. There are plenty of melee classes, plenty of casters, plenty of healer archtypes but only 1 ranger. That is why sony doesnt really care about or spend a lot of time on us because were such a minority.Anyway, i <3 the new hawk dive!Oh wait nvm, a dev just promised something that never happened, story of eq2 tbh.<div></div>

[Mono]

<P>I just think rangers are unique in there Combat style and it seems that the don't really put much effort into our Combat structure, especailly arrow costs, adornments and buffs.  </P> <P>Assasins can add a poison proc and have a dps and haste buff (one being Bloodlines) we get haste.  Assains also add hate something i've never as a ranger been able to do and would on certain fights benefit from.</P> <P>For me i love my ranger i like using a bow simple, i do think we have to work alot harder than other classes to parse well and i think really for us to be comparable we need to select our gear carefully. But it does sadden me that its still unbalanced that i have to get two of the best rarest bows in game to compete with an assasin kitted out from labs and some legendary items. We're both preadators our class is Dps. </P> <P>And i feel CA's like stream have never been addressed properly since nerf and our hawk has been a total flop.  Rangers are limited on ranged adornments  sure we have melee options as well but in all honesty our melee is poor. I'd say assasins Ranged abilities far outweigh our melee abilities just for the fact they can auto for 2.5k </P> <P>So we're an unbalanced class. I would just like a dev to post what he/she  thought about the Eq2 ranger class. Even if he post says  rangers are fine there just how we wanted them to be, however there's been so many changes and potential great things to come to our class that i can only really form my opinion of how i'd like my ranger to be.  Then at least i could play some what bemused but knowing well this is what they want us to be like. </P> <P>At present it feels like we're almost there but not quite there. </P> <P>If u raid as a ranger without a summon arrow bow u're looking at high costs arrows poisons and repairs.</P> <P>One last thing we have T7 ammo that obviously affect our auto attack i'd love to see RANGER only Arrows with stats. or Proc or debuffs that would be nice.  SOE THINK ABOUT IT its the least you could do.</P>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Katsugen wrote:<BR> <P>I don't have complaints about our dps, I do have complaints about how we manage our dps. The reason SOE is having trouble balancing our class is we follow different rules in achieving dps. I wouldn't expect to see ranger balanced until <FONT color=#ff0000>all the dev's figure out how we work</FONT>.</P> <P>- Katsugen</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think that's the key point here. All the devs, not just Lockeye, need to understand that there's a class out there that uses the ranged skill full time (or almost) and uses a bow not just to pull, but as a primary weapon.

[kidpaul]

Im pretty sure that all the Devs know that the Ranger is different and not just Lockeye. just look at the character creation screen they tucked away the assassin, swashy and brigand under rogues and the dirge and troubador in bards and ranger well got our very own category and he (this is the best part) wields a bow. maybe we get the least goodies cause we are a minority in combat style and gear. or maybe because when a dev takes one step inside the ranger forum all the rangers decide to throw him a blanket party.It's kinda like when Eddie Izzard jokes about Pol Pot "So I suppose we're glad that Pol Pot's under house arrest... you know, 1.7 million people. At least he - we know where he is - under house arrest! Just don't go in that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing house" I guess you can figure out rest.<div></div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">/speculationThe reason that we're do difficult to deal with from a 'balancing' perspective is probably due to the fact that there are so many perceptions and misconceptions of what we can and can not do, and what we should and should not do.  If you were around during the DoF days and early in the KoS timeframe, it was pretty easy to see this phenomenon in action.  Removing all other historical roles of the ranger in previous MMO's, both PnP and computer based, from the conversation and solely discussing EQ2:In the eyes of most rangers, we are a dps class, pure and simple.  The value of what utility we have is perceived to be of minimal value.  We don't bring anything to a group or raid except damage.  Notice that I said 'most' rangers.  There are some rangers that believe we are, or should be, more of a utility class.  If <i>rangers</i> can not agree on this, then a development  team certainly will never be able to.Some wizards say 'Rangers can wear chain armor.  It's not balanced for rangers to do as much damage as a wizard since their risk of dying is less'.  Others say 'A ranger can stand back and fight from range and avoid all AOE's having less risk of death.  If their dps suffers when they move back, that's fair since their risk goes down.'There are literally hundreds of different arguments on the SOE boards alone going back and forth about this.  People who don't play a ranger in EQ2 every day can not possibly understand how frustrating it is to continually have to buy poisons.  Nor do they understand that our summon arrow ability, even at master, can't keep up if you run a couple of instances in the afternoon then go to raid that night.  They never had to give up 3 or more complete 20+ slot bags just to hold arrows.Little things like this that we just become accustomed to are things that most people don't understand.  There is no reason that the SOE dev team should be any different than the gemeral game population.  Varying perceptions persist among the players, and I'll bet that it exists on the dev team as well./speculation offI sure hope that this doesn't appear to be a rant.  It wasn't meant to be.  This is just my guess.  I think that most everyone, including the devs, <i><b>know</b></i> what they <b><i>want</i></b> the ranger to be...they just can't agree on it.</font><div></div>

[Starness]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kidpaul wrote:<BR>Im pretty sure that all the Devs know that the Ranger is different and not just Lockeye. just look at the character creation screen they tucked away the assassin, swashy and brigand under rogues and the dirge and troubador in bards and ranger well got our very own category and he (this is the best part) wields a bow. <BR><BR>maybe we get the least goodies cause we are a minority in combat style and gear. or maybe because when a dev takes one step inside the ranger forum all the rangers decide to throw him a blanket party.<BR><BR>It's kinda like when Eddie Izzard jokes about Pol Pot "So I suppose we're glad that Pol Pot's under house arrest... you know, 1.7 million people. At least he - we know where he is - under house arrest! Just don't go in that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing house" I guess you can figure out rest.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm sorry, but the state of adorments (for one) makes me disagree. Skills are way more important since the combat changes, yet I looked over the list and see no +ranged adorment, there are however +crush/slash/pierce adornments for melee weapons. There are some nice adorments for thrown weapons, I would think they would mirror them for bows, but they did not. There are some really nice melee weapon adornments that have no mirror in bow adorments (our primary source of AA dmg). +12 dmg is nice, but that damage is not normalized it's *just* +12 (unless it's been adjusted since beta). Well it's +12 to CAs too you say. I've looked at parses, melee classes will get in way more CAs than I will in a given combat and that's if I SPAM. A melee with one of the +12 DMG melee on their DWs get a lot more boost than our bows ever will.</P> <P>On top of adorments I would add buffs (like pheonixblade) that are only melee for some reason, buffs (like the guardians group buffs) that add +c/s/p but no ranged, and items that add +c/s/p but no ranged. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think so.</P> <P>I do agree with you though about the forum. If I were a Dev I wouldn't step in here. I try to be constructive. I try to have rational arguments to why I think things should be different, but yes, often times a Dev get's brow beaten in here. Oh wells. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR><FONT size=2><BR>In the eyes of most rangers, we are a dps class, pure and simple.  The value of what utility we have is perceived to be of minimal value.  We don't bring anything to a group or raid except damage.  Notice that I said 'most' rangers.  There are some rangers that believe we are, or should be, more of a utility class.  If <I>rangers</I> can not agree on this, then a development  team certainly will never be able to.<BR><BR>Some wizards say 'Rangers can wear chain armor.  It's not balanced for rangers to do as much damage as a wizard since their risk of dying is less'.  Others say 'A ranger can stand back and fight from range and avoid all AOE's having less risk of death.  If their dps suffers when they move back, that's fair since their risk goes down.'<BR><BR>There are literally hundreds of different arguments on the SOE boards alone going back and forth about this.  People who don't play a ranger in EQ2 every day can not possibly understand how frustrating it is to continually have to buy poisons.  Nor do they understand that our summon arrow ability, even at master, can't keep up if you run a couple of instances in the afternoon then go to raid that night.  They never had to give up 3 or more complete 20+ slot bags just to hold arrows.<BR><BR>Little things like this that we just become accustomed to are things that most people don't understand.  There is no reason that the SOE dev team should be any different than the gemeral game population.  Varying perceptions persist among the players, and I'll bet that it exists on the dev team as well.<BR><BR>/speculation off<BR><BR>I sure hope that this doesn't appear to be a rant.  It wasn't meant to be.  This is just my guess.  I think that most everyone, including the devs, <I><B>know</B></I> what they <B><I>want</I></B> the ranger to be...they just can't agree on it.<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Very well said, Cat. Rant or not, you happened to sum up a few of the big reasons why I don't feel compelled to play my ranger (or EQ) much anymore - it just felt like a lot of frustrations for very little payout. I just got tired of having to endure, and adapt, and overcome... eventually you start asking yourself "why?" Why should have to "overcome" something just to have fun? Sooner or later, you get weary having to adapt...and adapt... and adapt again. Especially when there's an artificial ceiling whereby you have to be an extreme hardcore player or just Ebay some platinum in order to put out the kind of DPS that other classes (including those with far more utility) can attain without so much time and effort. </P> <P>Anyway, I'd submit that another reason SOE has trouble giving us a clear niche and some unique role in which we can excel is just the nature of our class abilities - we're classified as scouts in EQ2, but we're ranged attackers. So we depend on ranged procs, ranged weapons, +ranged stats, ranged ammunition, etc. No other class has these requirements; we're the odd men out. EQ2 has 24 classes, and most of them share characteristics with at least one other, but not rangers. I sorta feel like we're generally forgotten / overlooked b/c no other class requires the bonuses, abilities, and gear that we do. We've covered the lack of bows, ranged procs, and +ranged stat gear pretty extensively, and sadly, I think those problems are a by-product of being the square pegs that SOE is trying to fit into round holes. </P>

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zholain wrote:<font size="2">In the eyes of most rangers, we are a dps class, pure and simple.  The value of what utility we have is perceived to be of minimal value.  We don't bring anything to a group or raid except damage.  Notice that I said 'most' rangers.  There are some rangers that believe we are, or should be, more of a utility class.  If <i>rangers</i> can not agree on this, then a development  team certainly will never be able to.Some wizards say 'Rangers can wear chain armor.  It's not balanced for rangers to do as much damage as a wizard since their risk of dying is less'.  Others say 'A ranger can stand back and fight from range and avoid all AOE's having less risk of death.  If their dps suffers when they move back, that's fair since their risk goes down.'There are literally hundreds of different arguments on the SOE boards alone going back and forth about this.  People who don't play a ranger in EQ2 every day can not possibly understand how frustrating it is to continually have to buy poisons.  Nor do they understand that our summon arrow ability, even at master, can't keep up if you run a couple of instances in the afternoon then go to raid that night.  They never had to give up 3 or more complete 20+ slot bags just to hold arrows.Little things like this that we just become accustomed to are things that most people don't understand.  There is no reason that the SOE dev team should be any different than the gemeral game population.  Varying perceptions persist among the players, and I'll bet that it exists on the dev team as well./speculation offI sure hope that this doesn't appear to be a rant.  It wasn't meant to be.  This is just my guess.  I think that most everyone, including the devs, <i><b>know</b></i> what they <b><i>want</i></b> the ranger to be...they just can't agree on it.</font> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Very well said, Cat. Rant or not, you happened to sum up a few of the big reasons why I don't feel compelled to play my ranger (or EQ) much anymore - it just felt like a lot of frustrations for very little payout. I just got tired of having to endure, and adapt, and overcome... eventually you start asking yourself "why?" Why should have to "overcome" something just to have fun? Sooner or later, you get weary having to adapt...and adapt... and adapt again. Especially when there's an artificial ceiling whereby you have to be an extreme hardcore player or just Ebay some platinum in order to put out the kind of DPS that other classes (including those with far more utility) can attain without so much time and effort. </p> <p>Anyway, I'd submit that another reason SOE has trouble giving us a clear niche and some unique role in which we can excel is just the nature of our class abilities - we're classified as scouts in EQ2, but we're ranged attackers. So we depend on ranged procs, ranged weapons, +ranged stats, ranged ammunition, etc. No other class has these requirements; we're the odd men out. EQ2 has 24 classes, and most of them share characteristics with at least one other, but not rangers. I sorta feel like we're generally forgotten / overlooked b/c no other class requires the bonuses, abilities, and gear that we do. We've covered the lack of bows, ranged procs, and +ranged stat gear pretty extensively, and sadly, I think those problems are a by-product of being the square pegs that SOE is trying to fit into round holes. </p><hr></blockquote>I think a dev really needs to step in here and read this post. Especially these last two by Jay and Cat. Spot on</div>

[Mronin]

I whole heartedly second that notion Elbryan. I've thought a lot about what Cat and Jay have said and I'd be hard pressed to add anything substantive to what they have written thus far. My hat is off to both of you.

[Mono]

<P>Keeping it short and sweet.</P> <P> </P> <P>I too would like a dev response and hope other rangers will post asking for one.</P> <P>Message Edited by mononoko on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:28 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by mononoko on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:28 PM</span>

[Jay]

<P>Thanks for the kind words, y'all. As much as I'm enjoying WoW (and its Hunter class specifically), one thing that that game cannot touch is the community that this game has, especially the community that we Rangers share. I've been loathe to post much about my semi-retirement or disappointment with EQ2's Ranger class, b/c I don't want to depress anyone or bring people down with something that seems like excessive negativity. </P> <P>But I do hope that those others who have been active in this forum long enough to know my posts and general attitude will understand where I'm coming from. (And not condemn me for putting Kaeros on the shelf to explore a new world, LOL.) I'd hate to come off all gloom-and-doom, b/c I don't think the class is horrible shape or anything. It's just the ongoing frustrations without a corresponding payout that wore me down...and a lot of other issues with the game in general, beyond just our class-specific frustrations.  </P> <P>As for a Dev reading this.. maybe they have, or will, but I wouldn't worry too much about it either way. They just can't keep up with individual threads in 24 different class forums, in addition to all the other boards, and that's not really their job anyway. And any game forum is generally a horrible place to get objective feedback on the aspects of your work. While many of us do try to keep it constructive and share useful information, by and large, the forums are filled with venom, spite, and bitterness. That's just the nature of things. </P>

[Sulas]

Kaeros, you'll always be in-game as some Ranger's tiger pet.I too hope the Devs will read this thread, and the preceding couple of posts especially.  My first rule of games is that it be fun to play, when it starts being work, I'll probably quit.  After two years of EQ2, I've really slowed down, in no small part because the Devs keep changing the game.  meh...  I got nothing else I feel like saying, but I def spend more time on the boards than I do actually playing.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

Amen, Jay, and I'm the last person that is going to fault you for finding greener pastures. I've been enjoying my archer-build blaster in City of Heroes leagues more than I've enjoyed Gwyn lately. Many hurdles put in place for the soloer in general, and the soloing ranger specifically, have me looking at my alts (I've been screwing around with a swash alt on the island) or other games (as you know I have my own trollop Hunter) because the fun is very slowly leaking out of EQ2 for me, despite the fact that there is much to enjoy about the game still and the new expansion. I can't play in the way I've been accustomed to for so long, even putting in a lot of effort, and it's hard not to be depressed about that. Especially if you go elsewhere and find exactly what you're looking for. I wouldn't be afraid to post about your feelings, though. They're honest and truthful and so long as you're not nasty about it (which you never are) then I would hope the constructive criticism would be welcomed and not spat upon.<div></div>

[dazze]

<P>hehe another soe dont treat rangers fairly thread<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I admit the lack of decent ranged adornments is pretty crap, but from a dps point of view I dont see why people are whining.</P> <P>Admittedly it takes good gear, but on average I will always do more dps than anyone else in my guild when raiding. I dont see how that is a bad thing. And I can think of at least another 4 rangers on SP and RE who would agree with me.</P> <P>Maxamising dps as a ranger in a raid is about primarily about timing, and also the order in which you cast!! Read what your ca does and then attack accordingly.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dazzerd wrote:<BR> <P>hehe another soe dont treat rangers fairly thread<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I admit the lack of decent ranged adornments is pretty crap, but from a dps point of view I dont see why people are whining.</P> <P>Admittedly it takes good gear, but on average I will always do more dps than anyone else in my guild when raiding. I dont see how that is a bad thing. And I can think of at least another 4 rangers on SP and RE who would agree with me.</P> <P>Maxamising dps as a ranger in a raid is about primarily about timing, and also the order in which you cast!! Read what your ca does and then attack accordingly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, let me get this straight.  If all the Rangers were as good as you, we would all do more DPS than everyone else in our guilds even though the assassins and swashies in some of our guilds can parse 1500-2k almost every fight.  And, that if we just took the time to read the information on our combat arts and abilities, we would be able to play as good as you.  Then once we are all able to play our rangers a well as you play yours, our opinions wouldn't differ from yours.  What was that word you used to describe the opinions you disagree with?  I believe it was "whining."</P> <P>/smacks forehead</P> <P>The answer was right in front of us the whole time.  What would we have done with out you?  Thank you sir.</P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sulas wrote:Kaeros, you'll always be in-game as some Ranger's tiger pet.<hr></blockquote>I thought I was the only one who did that? Kaeros was laughed his tail off when he saw my 'pet' Kaeros. Until he saw me pelting it with snowballs <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now with my Marr 'pet' Kaeros will ALWAYS be in snowball range. If only SIE would come up with MORE implements of torture... these snowballs can't last forever</div>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>Jay, your a credit to not only the ranger community, but the whole of the EQ2 player base.   You've been an active forum member for as long as i remember, and i've found many of your posts informative, fair, funny (in a good way) and on many levels, honest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd hate to see you go for good, but, a break from anything, is always good.  I go away a lot, so i'm always refreshed when i get back, and it tends to build up my interest each time.  I've had mixed feelings coming back to the game, not b/c of the game itself, just other factors, outside of anything specifically related to the game.   I have no doubt, this is the best MMO currently available, and have a lot of fun playing my ranger, along with my alts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will say, that to get the most out of this game, there's a growing emphasis on players being part of strong raiding guilds.   In order to access better equipment, and explore new raid instances/encounters or group zones/instances, you really need to be part of a good raiding guild.   Whether this is a good or bad thing, could be debateable, but, there's no doubt, that it makes life in EQ2 so much easier, on so many levels.   Another thing, I've (again) started taking my time reading through all the dialogue in quests.  Not only does it help my understanding of what i'm doing, but why, and in some cases builds upon the lore of the game, which i'm finding really enjoyable.  Something i would recommend to anyone to do.   Sure, feel free to race through your class levels and AA points if thats your want,  but ..  at least read through the dialogue, you'll really appreciate the game more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few days ago, i had the most fun i've ever had playing this game.   I beat Castle Mistmoore, and had a chance to explore all there was inside and completed the quest lines related to inside.   We made a lot of discoveries, which i guess added to the fun.   But most of all, for me, it was fun because it was incredibly difficult, so required a dedicated, well equiped, and highly skilled group.  Nizarra is merely a training ground compared to this place.  Unfortunately, as things currently stand ... very few of the player base will ever get a chance to experience this zone in full.   Without access to good equipment, and a very skilled and balanced group, and access to voice communication ... the avg players or pickup groups will never stand a chance of exploring the best zone in game.  So, kudos to SOE for this zone (and Nizarra) .. but i do feel bad for the casual players, or players not in strong raiding guilds, as they are missing out on a part of the game that offers the most enjoyment and challenges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a slightly unrelated note, and back on topic to the OP, i do think its not easy to build a MMO with 24 classes that are all balanced around each other and towards the combat system in place.  However, i do think they've done a great job for the most part.  I think people are too quick to complain about things, but when you compare this game to others, i think SOE can be very proud.   Rangers arent perfect, but ... they are sooo much fun to play.  In terms of DPS, we really are T1, and i prefer sharing that spot with a few classes (which is where i think we finally are) then either us rangers dominating DPS or having some other class dominate DPS (which has been the case with the last 2 expansions).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rome wasn't built in a day, nor has any game that ever existed, or any game in the future.   Work in progress on any project is just a reality we all have to face, but as long as that progress improves on the basic mechanics of the game, i'm ok with the changes.   I just feel bad for new players or those players not in a position to explore the full content of what this great game has to offer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[dazze]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dazzerd wrote:<BR> <P>hehe another soe dont treat rangers fairly thread<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I admit the lack of decent ranged adornments is pretty crap, but from a dps point of view I dont see why people are whining.</P> <P>Admittedly it takes good gear, but on average I will always do more dps than anyone else in my guild when raiding. I dont see how that is a bad thing. And I can think of at least another 4 rangers on SP and RE who would agree with me.</P> <P>Maxamising dps as a ranger in a raid is about primarily about timing, and also the order in which you cast!! Read what your ca does and then attack accordingly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, let me get this straight.  If all the Rangers were as good as you, we would all do more DPS than everyone else in our guilds even though the assassins and swashies in some of our guilds can parse 1500-2k almost every fight.  And, that if we just took the time to read the information on our combat arts and abilities, we would be able to play as good as you.  Then once we are all able to play our rangers a well as you play yours, our opinions wouldn't differ from yours.  What was that word you used to describe the opinions you disagree with?  I believe it was "whining."</P> <P>/smacks forehead</P> <P>The answer was right in front of us the whole time.  What would we have done with out you?  Thank you sir.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OMG. The point is this and i will make it as simple as I can as you seem to have the ability to interpret what I said in a way to try and flame me.</P> <P>Some people are happy with their rangers, of the top rangers I know who play on RE and SP I have never seen a post or heard them "whine" in game about the performace of their character. They are always towards the top of the dps tree in their guilds.</P> <P>The fact is that their are some rangers out their who really are top of their guild roster in dps. If this is not the case for you either your assassins and swashies are super uber or you are not doing something right. This isnt my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is bigger than you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] its a simple observation I have from my own expereince.</P> <P>And to be honest you should really be able to match the dps of assasin and if you are regularly being out dpsed by a swashy then I suggest you role a pali.</P> <P>Let me ask you this. Whats more beleivable? That SOE really have a vendetta against rangers, or that some rangers do do t1 dps?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Wades]

Well, what more can I add...Soloing = as long as you have some space, you may even solo 65+ ^^^^, and solo encounters are no problems as long as you manage to melee as little as possibleGrouping = still okay, having to find the right distance for range/melee CA may be a problem sometimes... Raiding = well I resigned tonite, any other dps classes is outscoring me and it won't get better with 50 more useless AA's (I am even considering taking charm animal as our final 'fun' spell) and other well-balanced adornements. (*)Gods = err.... well... Inny or Cazic... so noneDevs = Already fixed rangers problem just before KoS...(*) If a dps class guildmate is not overscoring you, you may consider send her/him a tell explaining she/he is slacking or doesn't know how to play the class :p<div></div>

[USAFJeeper]

<P>It took work on my part, adjustments in style, tactics change, and yes some rare drops...  But I am back on the charts and having fun being the long ranged bomber.  Hell some fights, I get lazy and just do ranged and still parse in the top 3-4.  Yeah assassins beat me out still as do a couple of just really well played rogues, but I am having fun enjoying it.  </P> <P>If it takes the class being tougher to play to weed out the FOTM and the l33t wizard types who need to be the big dog, then I am for it.</P> <P>Is it a perfect world?  Hell no.  But then again, it aint perfect for a lot of other classes either.  Did I level a few alts up (including a level 70 brigand?)  Hell yeah!</P> <P>But, its still fun to see those 8K crits off autoattack!</P>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dazzerd wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dazzerd wrote:<BR> <P>hehe another soe dont treat rangers fairly thread<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I admit the lack of decent ranged adornments is pretty crap, but from a dps point of view I dont see why people are whining.</P> <P>Admittedly it takes good gear, but on average I will always do more dps than anyone else in my guild when raiding. I dont see how that is a bad thing. And I can think of at least another 4 rangers on SP and RE who would agree with me.</P> <P>Maxamising dps as a ranger in a raid is about primarily about timing, and also the order in which you cast!! Read what your ca does and then attack accordingly.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, let me get this straight.  If all the Rangers were as good as you, we would all do more DPS than everyone else in our guilds even though the assassins and swashies in some of our guilds can parse 1500-2k almost every fight.  And, that if we just took the time to read the information on our combat arts and abilities, we would be able to play as good as you.  Then once we are all able to play our rangers a well as you play yours, our opinions wouldn't differ from yours.  What was that word you used to describe the opinions you disagree with?  I believe it was "whining."</P> <P>/smacks forehead</P> <P>The answer was right in front of us the whole time.  What would we have done with out you?  Thank you sir.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OMG. The point is this and i will make it as simple as I can as you seem to have the ability to interpret what I said in a way to try and flame me.</P> <P>Some people are happy with their rangers, of the top rangers I know who play on RE and SP I have never seen a post or heard them "whine" in game about the performace of their character. They are always towards the top of the dps tree in their guilds.</P> <P>The fact is that their are some rangers out their who really are top of their guild roster in dps. If this is not the case for you either your assassins and swashies are super uber or you are not doing something right. This isnt my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is bigger than you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] its a simple observation I have from my own expereince.</P> <P>And to be honest you should really be able to match the dps of assasin and if you are regularly being out dpsed by a swashy then I suggest you role a pali.</P> <P>Let me ask you this. Whats more beleivable? That SOE really have a vendetta against rangers, or that some rangers do do t1 dps?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dazzerd;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you please show a raid parse of your numbers and others in your guild? Also what bow do you use etc. that you are getting 1.5-2k dps every fight, and id assume you have t8 ammo to put up those numbers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not calling you a liar, just cant stand when someone says it must be something everyone else is doing wrong, but then doesnt back it up with proof and/or details on what "you're" apparently doing right. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Shaulin Dolamite on <span class=date_text>12-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 PM</span>

[Wades]

and even if you achieve to stay in top 3-4 of your guild, what do you offer to the raid for the same dps ? stats buff or mitig or single target buffs ? debuffs ? whooot a miracle shot thru walls !!!Of course this is raid oriented playing. As I stated before, for easy content rangers are ok. <div></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shaulin Dolamite wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Dazzerd;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you please show a raid parse of your numbers and others in your guild? Also what bow do you use etc. that you are getting 1.5-2k dps every fight, and id assume you have t8 ammo to put up those numbers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not calling you a liar, just cant stand when someone says it must be something everyone else is doing wrong, but then doesnt back it up with proof and/or details on what "you're" apparently doing right. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Shaulin Dolamite on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:59 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>He doesn't have it.  I knew he was spewing B.S. when he summed up some very intelligent and well thought out posts with, "from a dps point of view I dont see why people are whining."</P> <P>It drives me nuts when people come around and say that they do it right and everyone else does it wrong.  And if we dare to question them, we are just a bunch of whiners. </P>

[Gerdos]

<P>In defence of dazzered, he didn't say rangers can parse b/w 1.5-2k <EM>almost every</EM> fight .. and in truth, no class can.  As for providing proof, i dont think he needs to either.   I've been arguing the case that rangers are T1 for many months, and most were scepticle  with my early views, but after a few more months, more rangers are geared up now and able to reach the T1 dps that other classes reached before rangers.  For the record, i dont consider rogues T1 dps, although they are very good and will even beat me every few fights, and i base that view against an excellent brigand and swashie in my guild.</P> <P>I also think its a bit of a cop out to say we need 2 bows to be T1 dps.   Having either bazkul, sarnak or corruption will put you into T1 range.  Even the 2x bonemire cube bows will have you touching T1 dps on a regualar basis.  Its only having the T8 arrows with sarnak or corruption that puts you in a position to optimize dps.</P> <P>If you haven't noticed, there aren't a lot of high end raid rangers that comment in these forums, b/c i assume they disagree with a lot of the posts and tone that sometimes comes from these threads.  In their own experiences, they are T1 and have been for a long time ... so they are happy and content to sit back and not get involved in the debate.  I've also seen some of the more active forum rangers who stated we weren't T1 dps, but have since changed their minds based on their own evidence as they have slowly geared up.   While it may have only been a very few that believed we were T1 dps a few months ago, there are many more now, so it's irrelevant to post parse numbers.   Established raid rangers prove their worth on a continual basis and those that play with them also know the truth.  On the few occassions i join pickup groups on my ranger, i still get a lot of amazed comments about my dps, so i guess that shows it's still not common knowledge what rangers can potentially do.</P> <P>Simply put, not all players have the same ability and not all rangers are equally geared, so there will always be discrepancy in dps numbers.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR> <P>In defence of dazzered, he didn't say rangers can parse b/w 1.5-2k <EM>almost every</EM> fight .. and in truth, no class can.  As for providing proof, i dont think he needs to either.   I've been arguing the case that rangers are T1 for many months, and most were scepticle  with my early views, but after a few more months, more rangers are geared up now and able to reach the T1 dps that other classes reached before rangers.  For the record, i dont consider rogues T1 dps, although they are very good and will even beat me every few fights, and i base that view against an excellent brigand and swashie in my guild.</P> <P>I also think its a bit of a cop out to say we need 2 bows to be T1 dps.   Having either bazkul, sarnak or corruption will put you into T1 range.  Even the 2x bonemire cube bows will have you touching T1 dps on a regualar basis.  Its only having the T8 arrows with sarnak or corruption that puts you in a position to optimize dps.</P> <P>If you haven't noticed, there aren't a lot of high end raid rangers that comment in these forums, b/c i assume they disagree with a lot of the posts and tone that sometimes comes from these threads.  In their own experiences, they are T1 and have been for a long time ... so they are happy and content to sit back and not get involved in the debate.  I've also seen some of the more active forum rangers who stated we weren't T1 dps, but have since changed their minds based on their own evidence as they have slowly geared up.   While it may have only been a very few that believed we were T1 dps a few months ago, there are many more now, so it's irrelevant to post parse numbers.   Established raid rangers prove their worth on a continual basis and those that play with them also know the truth.  On the few occassions i join pickup groups on my ranger, i still get a lot of amazed comments about my dps, so i guess that shows it's still not common knowledge what rangers can potentially do.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Simply put, not all players have the same ability and not all rangers are equally geared, so there will always be discrepancy in dps numbers.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Gerdos, that was beautiful. I think you summed everything up perfectly and there isnt anything I can disagree with in your post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The last line.. the one I highlighted... is prolly the single most truthful thing you could say. Its just just true for rangers, but for all classes. I cant tell you how many times Ive seen ... hell... played with ppl that just flat out sucked at thier class. You can gear up all you want.. granted thats going to help in the long run, but no amount of gear is going to magically change you from a bad player to a good one. We had an assassin that was flat out terrible, we had a few rangers that shoulda had thier bows revoked... was it gear? Nope.. sure wasnt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before I get flamed, Im not saying anyone here is bad at thier class. I dont play with any of you, so I cant say that. There are certain needs for rangers to hit those 1.5-2K numbers.. I think by now everyone knows what they are. Rangers can do T1 DPS.. what they cant do, is top the parse every fight.</DIV>

[Tarryn]

<P>I wouldn't care so much about our DPS being so heavily affected by itemization issues if they would just fix our broken abilities.</P> <P>Hawk Dive, particularly, needs to be fixed.</P> <P>I've already accepted that I'm not likely to ever be T1 DPS since I don't wish to join a hardcore raiding guild.  I just want to be able to use the final upgrade of each CA without hurting myself.</P> <P>Overall, though... /agree Kaeros</P>

[dazze]

<P>Here is a post from HOS.</P> <P> </P> <P>This is the entire raid not just 1 encounter. SO the numbers are probably less than they should be.</P> <P>Post EOF</P> <P>Allies: (01:05:36) 51566392 | 13101,22 [Draknishar-Decapitate-28122] <BR>Subtle 5118513 | 1300,44 Ranger<BR>Draknishar 4188919 | 1064,26 Assasin<BR>Klawz 3873002 | 983,99 Swashy<BR>Stickleficks 3853138 | 978,95 Conj<BR>Prizia 3575856 | 908,50 Wizard<BR>Velo 3237047 | 822,42 <BR>Onaupu 3167131 | 804,66 <BR>Ambre 3139825 | 797,72 <BR>Falcor 2928592 | 744,05 <BR>Cilariz 2668041 | 677,86 <BR>Toggster 2656322 | 674,88 <BR>Ulla 2220514 | 564,16 <BR>Xaicea 2174986 | 552,59 <BR>Zalbard 1752241 | 445,18 <BR>Maay 1617166 | 410,87 <BR>Estoria 1448964 | 368,13 <BR>Dubber 1237522 | 314,41 <BR>Ecoskii 709010 | 180,13 <BR>Sheela 695160 | 176,62 <BR>Utarg 390034 | 99,09 <BR>Acuz 334185 | 84,90 <BR>Tindomerel 285462 | 72,53 <BR>Tyrak 274033 | 69,62 <BR>Tiara 16990 | 4,32 <BR>Betrayal 3739 | 0,95 </P> <P>Pre EOF</P> <P>Allies: (01:27:49) 58761865 | 11152.38 [Hughbot-Ball of Lava-43518] <BR>Subtle 5566187 | 1056.40 | Sniper Shot-15996 <BR>Klawz 5448701 | 1034.11 | Plunder-3414 <BR>Monokee 5200781 | 987.05 | Sniper Shot-14508 <BR>Linzi 4666002 | 885.56 | Decapitate-22743 <BR>Cilariz 4367593 | 828.92 | Abate Life-3503 <BR>Hughbot 4186853 | 794.62 | Ball of Lava-43518 <BR>Zmej 4110931 | 780.21 | Kidney Punch-3687 <BR>Onaupu 3028664 | 574.81 | Golem Master's Sinister Strike-3971 <BR>Falcor 2953076 | 560.46 | Demolish-3092/18 <BR>Vaux 2606327 | 494.65 | Flay-4220 <BR>Travesty 2561276 | 486.10 | Golem Master's Strike-4253 <BR>Ambre 2435757 | 462.28 | Punishing Cobra-2285 <BR>Cappy 2370558 | 449.91 | Golem Master's Sinister Strike-3813 <BR>Deetz 1786434 | 339.05 | Devitalize-2765 <BR>Raielle 1773579 | 336.61 | Sonic Boom-3488 <BR>Luminiee 1521612 | 288.79 | Luda's Nefarious Wail-2565 <BR>Zalbard 1487513 | 282.31 | Refusal of Conviction-2256 <BR>Wizzlefizz 851958 | 161.69 | Thunderbolt-5532 <BR>Xireon 553371 | 105.02 | Breaking of Faith-965 <BR>Kidibuz 300204 | 56.98 | Subzero-2145 <BR>Tiara 263863 | 50.08 | Holy Strike-1977 <BR>Narissa 260849 | 49.51 | Thunderbolt-4881 <BR>Tyrak 248899 | 47.24 | Maestro's Song-3997 <BR>Ecoskii 194391 | 36.89 | Golem Master's Smite-2331 <BR>Xyra 8905 | 1.69 | Holy Strike-1275 <BR></P> <P>As somebody rightly pointed out depending on the encounter, specifically the type of mob your fighting dps can ranger from anywhere between 1k and 2k.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarryn wrote:<BR> <P>I wouldn't care so much about our DPS being so heavily affected by itemization issues if they would just fix our broken abilities.</P> <P>Hawk Dive, particularly, needs to be fixed.</P> <P>I've already accepted that I'm not likely to ever be T1 DPS since I don't wish to join a hardcore raiding guild.  I just want to be able to use the final upgrade of each CA without hurting myself.</P> <P>Overall, though... /agree Kaeros</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thers nothng wrong with Hawk Dive.. Its working as intended.. so theres nothing that needs to be fixed..  I assume however you mean it breaking stealth. Im sorry, but thats how that was designed. Now if you want to say... oh I donno.. Hawk Dive is f'ing useless... then I'd have to agree with you, but saying it needs to be fixed when its working the way it was meant to... meh...<BR>

[Wades]

Hum... let me be clearer...  no decent ranger gods, way underpowered 'ranger' oriented adornements, useless AA tree with what 5-6 AA that may upgrade our dps (if not bugged I dont think stream of arrows will ever be fixed, next excuse will be that character animations are too slow if ever there is any explanation), str becoming now a must have since mana-pool benefits from it and still a need for int to get the better out of poison (that you must buy...)... I got a decent bow (dragonrecurve) and T8 ammo from Ichor, I got a decent stuff .... and I got a parser.... How can a +14 slashing on bow adornement compete with +80 (or something) on shoulder ? when our fellow scouts frinds are swinging 3x to 4x more than us ?Add then two adornements with +10 dps (ranged and neck) when we can have one (or you drop your bow when meleeing lol)...Our AA tree for Eof is a joke, you may even have to choose between Poise and Multishot line since casting time have a decrease limit (not even speaking about other classes AA's reducing your casting times). But somewhere it has a meaning, go solo far far away ranger...Raidwise every other single dps class can match (in my opinion it's overscore) our dps AND brings something to the raid: debuffs, buffs, aggro management.Why take a ranger when you've got a brigand, swash, wiz or assassin that can fill the spot with more utility ?Furthermore why waste items, adornements to equip such a useless (raidwise) class ?<div></div>

[Wil81115]

<DIV>Wades,  If you have Dragonhorn Recurve and Irchor, there must be something else going on. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Subtle, What was your groups setups for that EoF zone wide?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Wil81115 on <span class=date_text>12-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>

[Katsugen]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dazzerd wrote:<BR> <P>Here is a post from HOS.</P> <P> </P> <P>This is the entire raid not just 1 encounter. SO the numbers are probably less than they should be.</P> <P>Post EOF</P> <P>Allies: (01:05:36) 51566392 | 13101,22 [Draknishar-Decapitate-28122] <BR>Subtle 5118513 | 1300,44 Ranger<BR>Draknishar 4188919 | 1064,26 Assasin<BR>Klawz 3873002 | 983,99 Swashy<BR>Stickleficks 3853138 | 978,95 Conj<BR>Prizia 3575856 | 908,50 Wizard<BR>Velo 3237047 | 822,42 <BR>Onaupu 3167131 | 804,66 <BR>Ambre 3139825 | 797,72 <BR>Falcor 2928592 | 744,05 <BR>Cilariz 2668041 | 677,86 <BR>Toggster 2656322 | 674,88 <BR>Ulla 2220514 | 564,16 <BR>Xaicea 2174986 | 552,59 <BR>Zalbard 1752241 | 445,18 <BR>Maay 1617166 | 410,87 <BR>Estoria 1448964 | 368,13 <BR>Dubber 1237522 | 314,41 <BR>Ecoskii 709010 | 180,13 <BR>Sheela 695160 | 176,62 <BR>Utarg 390034 | 99,09 <BR>Acuz 334185 | 84,90 <BR>Tindomerel 285462 | 72,53 <BR>Tyrak 274033 | 69,62 <BR>Tiara 16990 | 4,32 <BR>Betrayal 3739 | 0,95 </P> <P>Pre EOF</P> <P>Allies: (01:27:49) 58761865 | 11152.38 [Hughbot-Ball of Lava-43518] <BR>Subtle 5566187 | 1056.40 | Sniper Shot-15996 <BR>Klawz 5448701 | 1034.11 | Plunder-3414 <BR>Monokee 5200781 | 987.05 | Sniper Shot-14508 <BR>Linzi 4666002 | 885.56 | Decapitate-22743 <BR>Cilariz 4367593 | 828.92 | Abate Life-3503 <BR>Hughbot 4186853 | 794.62 | Ball of Lava-43518 <BR>Zmej 4110931 | 780.21 | Kidney Punch-3687 <BR>Onaupu 3028664 | 574.81 | Golem Master's Sinister Strike-3971 <BR>Falcor 2953076 | 560.46 | Demolish-3092/18 <BR>Vaux 2606327 | 494.65 | Flay-4220 <BR>Travesty 2561276 | 486.10 | Golem Master's Strike-4253 <BR>Ambre 2435757 | 462.28 | Punishing Cobra-2285 <BR>Cappy 2370558 | 449.91 | Golem Master's Sinister Strike-3813 <BR>Deetz 1786434 | 339.05 | Devitalize-2765 <BR>Raielle 1773579 | 336.61 | Sonic Boom-3488 <BR>Luminiee 1521612 | 288.79 | Luda's Nefarious Wail-2565 <BR>Zalbard 1487513 | 282.31 | Refusal of Conviction-2256 <BR>Wizzlefizz 851958 | 161.69 | Thunderbolt-5532 <BR>Xireon 553371 | 105.02 | Breaking of Faith-965 <BR>Kidibuz 300204 | 56.98 | Subzero-2145 <BR>Tiara 263863 | 50.08 | Holy Strike-1977 <BR>Narissa 260849 | 49.51 | Thunderbolt-4881 <BR>Tyrak 248899 | 47.24 | Maestro's Song-3997 <BR>Ecoskii 194391 | 36.89 | Golem Master's Smite-2331 <BR>Xyra 8905 | 1.69 | Holy Strike-1275 <BR></P> <P>As somebody rightly pointed out depending on the encounter, specifically the type of mob your fighting dps can ranger from anywhere between 1k and 2k.</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Those HOS numbers look low imo. Raid wide 11k pre-eof is like 7k less than what I'm used seeing. Now when it to comes to HOS I'm always in the top3 but thats only cuz the summoners have to fight with pets dying to AE's. I dunno if our wizard is just that good but he will top our zone wides pretty consistantly. Our assassins will come in right where I am maybe a touch lower if there are alot of AE's. But I can see that some fights they slack on, pretty sure they could beat me if they tried harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't been parsing much since eof but what i've seen suggests I'm in the same spot as before. The real kicker is names. Trash and all that, I seem to do really good on, but with these new aa's and over powered deity skills, for that 5min named fight I'm getting owned. With those life taps and manaburns and all those crazy blessings and miracles I'm getting smoked in the dps area. How am I supposed to compete when a wizard can drop a 70k manaburn. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I have been slacking on my aa's and once I get all mine I'm pretty sure my zone wides will look pretty good, but I see no indication my Named fights will improve much. I just don't see anything out there that can give us that spike dps.<BR></DIV> <DIV>-Katsugen</DIV>

[Wades]

Yeah sure, my guildmates know how to play their classes. I guess I can be top dps raidwide, if I don't take breaks and don't LD/crash... My main problem is: No future for rangers in raid. At best we will be able to match other T1 (lol does this still even mean something) dps and I am not even sure, and without adding anything to the raid. Poison debuff ? too random and 3 other classes can dot it. Ranged dps ? Mages can do it and melee dps can dodges AE (we must melee to achieve decent dps so when we are only ranging guess what...).PvP killed us that's all. Ranged dps with chain armor is supposed to be too ubber... And again why take a single-based-dps class when you can take a as-good-a-dps with other utilities (and not joke ones) ? Tell me why ! :p<div></div>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>I am in a "casual" raiding guild.  We were like the 4th on our server to whack Tarinax as a general ranking of where we are.  We are basically serious raiders who dont see it as a lifestyle choice so we only raid 3 times a week.  Thats to let you know where I am coming from.  My guild has 3 full time assassins (1 was a betrayed ranger.)  I am the only full time ranger and its not cause my guild discriminates, we just havent had any app that made it.  We have a few brigands/swashies. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use the Sarnak and Ichorstrand (for ammo), fabled gear, Masters.  I am geared as well as the other scouts.  On parses I am usually behind 1-2 of the assassins (we swap positions a lot), 1 of the swash/brigands (very well played) and sometimes the occaisional wizard or conjurer will poke up in the top 5.  I do occaisionally top the parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THey could not easily replace the damage I put out to say it bluntly.  Once you have a mob debuffed etc, how many more brigands do you need?  No non raider assassin or rogue can touch me.  To replace me would involve poaching a raider which we dont do or regearing a new guy and getting him used to playing in a raid.  I almost never get aggro.  Rangers have got the best personal deaggro in this game when played correctly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I "swing" my bow, I am hitting for thousands of points.  When the other scout classes "swing" they are hiting for hundreds.  And thats non crit.  I am no fanboi, the class is not perfect and I do really need to get one of the rarest items in the game to keep up with a more easily, similiarly geared assassin.  Our CAs are weak sauce.  I take a hit in DPS if I stay on CAs and do not let autoattack in.  No clear god choice, I took Tunare and use the Trueshot line only.  I am still working the EOF AAs and have no real opinion there yet.  That being said, I hope more people leave the class.  There are too many rangers out there all of them wanting to be Legolas or Drizzt.  Keep it tough to be a ranger.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to top it all off, as a half elf, I have a mohawk.  And that is for the win.</DIV>

[dazze]

<DIV>Aye the parses are low compared to some other guilds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm pretty sure the parser I use takes account of all the time in the zone when working out the average not just combat time, I could be wrong tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On another nore, I would be very impressed to see a zone wide parse of over 18k for HOS tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[TaleraRis]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gerdos wrote:<div>I will say, that to get the most out of this game, there's a growing emphasis on players being part of strong raiding guilds.   In order to access better equipment, and explore new raid instances/encounters or group zones/instances, you really need to be part of a good raiding guild.   Whether this is a good or bad thing, could be debateable</div><hr></blockquote>I would have to say, having played a game that did this for 5 years, this is very very very bad. It results in those few classes that aren't geared for soloing having to either sit around with LFG going or try to find just the right classes to get a group together so you can have something to do that night. I was a highly group oriented class (enchanter at least after the charm changes) and this was my night most of the time, since I was by choice in a small guild with my friends. I had to take part in a raid alliance just to take part in the content that came with the PoP expansion, which was geared around raiding. I never want to go back to that, and more and more each day I see EQ2 heading that way. </div>

[Mono]

<DIV>well the thread has kinda gona off topic to how much does your ranger parse..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However having started this thread and also being in the same guild as subtle i can confirm he's top dps in our guild </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>however i'm not far behind him ... rawwrrr and i use T8 ammo and Rain caller so i'm not doing too bad i even beat himsometimes woot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUt tari refuses to drop me a good bow which is what subs has and venekor refuses as well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So at present i'm stuck with rain caller and ichor for ammo but i still parse up in the top4 i'd say. </DIV>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Honestly, I think there may be a disconnect between what the designers <EM>envisioned</EM> Rangers to be, and what players who chose to be Rangers <EM>expected</EM> them to be.</P> <P>I think that the designers <STRONG>DO</STRONG> 'get it', and have slowly been modifying Rangers to fit the player vision from the initial vision, but that the transformation is only 2/3rds finished.</P> <P>I think that the same can be said for almost every class (read their boards).</P> <P>I believe that they are going slow on purpose because they have to evaluate just how changes in one class affects the viability of other classes, (especially as it pertains to PvP)</P> <P>I believe that they will continued to 'tweak' each class slowly to try to meet player expectations without throwing other classes out of whack.  It is a very delicate process, and not one that will likely endear themselves to those (from any/all classes clamoring for changes to 'their' class).</P> <P>Be patient.  Adapt, overcome, adjust.</P>

[Lyptus]

<div></div>I'll have to agree with most of the folks that posted here. I don't see a whole lot of rants. I see a lot of pleas.This is what I say, make a ranger more like the EQ1 Ranger. Here is a quote...<font color="#ffff00"><span>Rangers are warriors attuned to the ways of nature, able to call upon the power of the wild to aid them in their fights. Rangers are primarily a melee class, able to wear chain armor and wield many kinds of weapons.Rangers are scouts and hunters, able to track enemies from a great distance and engage them with deadly ranged attacks, but rangers can also fight well in a melee, using two weapons to attack their foes.Rangers have spells drawn from nature. They can increase run speed and add to an ally's armor, health or ability to attack. In a pinch, they can heal or directly damage enemies with fiery attacks.Rangers can hunt alone or in a group, though allies allow them to best use their abilities. A ranger's bow is a welcome addition to a group, adding a good deal of damage. The ranger is a great class for players who like to engage in melee battles between trips to explore the broad expanse of Norrath.</span></font><div></div>Can we get back to this please. I know we can't have everything, I'd gladly take a hit to my dps is I could be useful in a melee fight. Or heal my group mates. Or Bolster them with a buff or two. I know this is an entirely different game, but most classes stick to their roots. Bring us home SOE. We will all love you for it.

[Katsugen]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dazzerd wrote:<BR> <DIV>Aye the parses are low compared to some other guilds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm pretty sure the parser I use takes account of all the time in the zone when working out the average not just combat time, I could be wrong tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On another nore, I would be very impressed to see a zone wide parse of over 18k for HOS tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well if you are indeed parsing w/ down time included then that would be the disconnect. I know my ACT is only accounting for time spent fighting when I do a merge. HOS is around 45min of fighting, but zone itself takes longer as there can be some down time waiting for roamers or what not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Katsugen<BR></DIV>

[dazze]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mononoko wrote:<BR> <DIV>well the thread has kinda gona off topic to how much does your ranger parse..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However having started this thread and also being in the same guild as subtle i can confirm he's top dps in our guild </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>however i'm not far behind him ... rawwrrr and i use T8 ammo and Rain caller so i'm not doing too bad i even beat himsometimes woot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUt tari refuses to drop me a good bow which is what subs has and venekor refuses as well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So at present i'm stuck with rain caller and ichor for ammo but i still parse up in the top4 i'd say. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeh but you have dbl attack:smileywink:</P> <P>I'm far too slack to have got enough aa points yet:smileysad:</P> <P>But I think before any of us become carried away with what we should be etc, we should wait till we all have 100aa.</P> <P>I note that from dbl attack rangers parses are going up by around 25% which imo is very very good. Add to that the posion proc increase rate of 50% and we should be well up there with the other classes. Also add to that the increase in Focus Aim what we should have spare aa for and I think its all good.</P> <P> </P>

[Mono]

<DIV>Hey i meant before i got doubt attack still parsed ok... :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[TheStormrider]

<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>Rangers are warriors attuned to the ways of nature, able to call upon the power of the wild to aid them in their fights. Rangers are primarily a melee class, able to wear chain armor and wield many kinds of weapons.<BR><BR>Rangers are scouts and hunters, able to track enemies from a great distance and engage them with deadly ranged attacks, but rangers can also fight well in a melee, using two weapons to attack their foes.<BR><BR>Rangers have spells drawn from nature. They can increase run speed and add to an ally's armor, health or ability to attack. In a pinch, they can heal or directly damage enemies with fiery attacks.<BR><BR>Rangers can hunt alone or in a group, though allies allow them to best use their abilities. A ranger's bow is a welcome addition to a group, adding a good deal of damage. The ranger is a great class for players who like to engage in melee battles between trips to explore the broad expanse of Norrath.</FONT></SPAN><BR> <BR>-------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Im not sure if this is the definition of the eq1 or eq2 ranger.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also,  I dont believe that theres a '50%' more chance to proc upgrade.  The upgrade is you get more procs per application.  EI:  If its 100 Procs per application,  it will do 150 procs per application with the skill. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gareorn]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dazzerd wrote:<BR> <P>Allies: (01:05:36) 51566392 | 13101,22 [Draknishar-Decapitate-28122]<BR>Subtle 5118513 | 1300,44 Ranger<BR>Draknishar 4188919 | 1064,26 Assasin<BR>Klawz 3873002 | 983,99 Swashy<BR>Stickleficks 3853138 | 978,95 Conj<BR>Prizia 3575856 | 908,50 Wizard<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is exactly why it bothers so may people when someone states "Rangers are fine, I always parse on top."  It's relative to the others who you parse with.  In this case we have a Ranger who knows his class very well, brings his a-game and parses quite well.  But then he is only on top because the other other classes on the parse are well below their class average.  That's a good parse Subtle, but in many guilds, you'd be lucky to be in the top four.</P> <P>I'm sure there are Rangers out there that parse around 800 and still always parse on top.  This is not a good indicator of whether Rangers are balanced.  Personally, I'm fairly happy with my DPS.  But, there are issues with the Ranger class that needs to be addressed.  And, to simply dismiss the opinions of those who realize this and label them as "whiners" is just plain wrong.<BR></P></DIV>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> dazzerd wrote: <div></div> <p>Allies: (01:05:36) 51566392 | 13101,22 [Draknishar-Decapitate-28122]Subtle 5118513 | 1300,44 RangerDraknishar 4188919 | 1064,26 AssasinKlawz 3873002 | 983,99 SwashyStickleficks 3853138 | 978,95 ConjPrizia 3575856 | 908,50 Wizard</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>This is exactly why it bothers so may people when someone states "Rangers are fine, I always parse on top."  It's relative to the others who you parse with.  In this case we have a Ranger who knows his class very well, brings his a-game and parses quite well.  But then he is only on top because the other other classes on the parse are well below their class average.  That's a good parse Subtle, but in many guilds, you'd be lucky to be in the top four.</p> <p>I'm sure there are Rangers out there that parse around 800 and still always parse on top.  This is not a good indicator of whether Rangers are balanced.  Personally, I'm fairly happy with my DPS.  But, there are issues with the Ranger class that needs to be addressed.  And, to simply dismiss the opinions of those who realize this and label them as "whiners" is just plain wrong.</p></div><hr></blockquote>He parsed about what I did this weekend... Only the Necro and Conjuror in my Raid were occasionally hitting 2400. Our Assassin was on par with me. </div>

[Dragonsword]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boramyr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well I don't normally post on threads like this, as you can see I don't really post much at all.  This thread just caught me in the right mood I guess.  The problem is not that SOE doesn't get our class.   The fundamental flaw of your argument is that YOU do not get our class.   Rangers are NOT a 100% ranged class, never have been (not even in archetypal fiction) never will be.   You want to play an ARCHER that does nothing but shoot a bow, but that isn't what we are.  Almost 1/3 of our combat arts are Melee and our biggest dps combat art is melee.   I like the fact that I can stay at ranged if the AE's get too nasty and not loose too much DPS but if you want to play your class to the best of your ability then you need to dance in and out of melee range.    If you need to gripe, gripe that EQ2 doesn't have an archer class so you can stay at the back of the fight all the time like some sort of namby pamby mage (nm they can't do that either because of PBAE's and such).   Grab a sword get into the fight and learn to use ALL your class not just part of it and then gripe that you are lacking.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I'm not saying that there isn't an issue or two, and assassin's are having their time in the sun like we did back in DoF, and then Summoners just after us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the Dev responses, other than the Hawk Dive debacle the last time I saw a Dev come into this forum he came in with absolute evidence from SOE's world parse and was told by at least five people that his numbers were WRONG and he was a LIAR.  Hell I wouldn't come back either.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kurrash Darkstalker, 70 Ranger, Antonia Bayle</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Boramyr on <SPAN class=date_text>11-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:24 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have to totally agree with this post. Rangers arent just Archers, I melee in groups as much as use my ranged arts, no wonder rangers get a bad name on most servers. Ive posted before in other slots about this, go watch Lord of the Rings thats a good example of a ranger, read up D&D on Rangers, Rangers = Close range combat & Long range Combat. Your selling the whole Ranger Community short by posting stuff trying to nerf our short range melee skills. I have never had a problem getting into Raids or Groups because I work hard for my Reputation. </P> <P>Im not saying you have to do close in melee, just back off with the ranger = archer, its your choice if you dont want to use half of a rangers combat arts, but leave off with Nerfing the rest of us. More damage is done to EQ2 by the players than anyone inside SOE.</P> <P>I carry 3 sets of weapons specifically for close in work, depending on what im doing. Seeing threads like this no wonder devs dont pay much attention to what we really need.</P> <P>Ranger Class Specific Gear, Weapons and Armour.<BR></P>

[Sulas]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Tarryn wrote: <div></div> <p>;; snip ;; ...if they would just fix our broken abilities.</p> <p>Hawk Dive, particularly, needs to be fixed.</p> <p>;; snip ;;</p> <hr> </blockquote><b>Thers nothng wrong with Hawk Dive.. Its working as intended</b>.. so theres nothing that needs to be fixed..  I assume however you mean it breaking stealth. Im sorry, but thats how that was designed. Now <b>if you want to say.</b>.. oh I donno.. <b>Hawk Dive is f'ing useless... then I'd have to agree with you</b>, but saying it needs to be fixed when its working the way it was meant to... meh...<hr></blockquote>I'm making this post only to point out the conflict in your argument.  This kind of acquiescence is the reason problems persist.On one hand you state it is a useless skill yet defend it as functioning as intended,  Given that reasoning, do you really intend to suggest that the developers have *intentionally* given us a skill that is intended to be useless to us?  If we want broken mechanics or skills fixed/ adjusted then we have to push for it.  Quiet acceptance will only leave us frustrated.  In the case of Hawk Dive, if you all agree it's useless, then there *is* something wrong.</div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>I will say, that to get the most out of this game, there's a growing emphasis on players being part of strong raiding guilds.   In order to access better equipment, and explore new raid instances/encounters or group zones/instances, you really need to be part of a good raiding guild.   Whether this is a good or bad thing, could be debateable</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would have to say, having played a game that did this for 5 years, this is very very very bad. It results in those few classes that aren't geared for soloing having to either sit around with LFG going or try to find just the right classes to get a group together so you can have something to do that night. I was a highly group oriented class (enchanter at least after the charm changes) and this was my night most of the time, since I was by choice in a small guild with my friends. I had to take part in a raid alliance just to take part in the content that came with the PoP expansion, which was geared around raiding. I never want to go back to that, and more and more each day I see EQ2 heading that way. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And people wonder why WoW has millions of subscribers, and EQ2 has a several hundred thousand...  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Anyway, interesting thread this has turned out to be. We're kinda having three different discussions at once, but hey, kudos to all on the lack of flaming, BS, accusations of whining, and general immaturity. Right on. </P> <P>For my 2 cents: I certainly won't argue that Rangers *can't* be great DPS on raids. They can, I've seen it. Been in a few raids where the other ranger regularly hit 1400+ and outdid sorcerors and summoners alike. But he's an A-game, top-of-the-line player, like a few of the folks we have here who are kind enough to share their experience with us. I'm not one of those players; I don't have the time, skill, or inclination to be. Sure, I've topped a few parses myself, so have other rangers in my guild, but that doesn't mean everything is A-OK in rangerland. I still think we spend more money and more time to have less DPS *and* less utility than several other classes who were supposed to be below us on the damage ladder. Now, that doesn't really matter to 70% of the rangers out there, and more power to 'em. If you're having fun, do what it takes to continue having fun - whether you're level 12 or 70, whether you're soloing, grouping, or raiding, whether you place every night or once a week. </P> <P>For me, I didn't shelve EQ2 because the ranger class wasn't instantly number one on raid parses. I don't put that much stock in parses anyway - I play for fun, not to be uber or compete with my allies. But I got sucked in to that very mentality for a while, despite my casual player roots, and all it did was turn fun into work and make a game into a job. The other aspects (confining myself to class-related issues) that led me to the overall 'blah' feeling were more intangible than DPS numbers - like the lack of a unique ranger role, the genericization of classes across archetypes, the bland look and feel of most equipment, the blatant recycling of models, etc. Frankly, I think EQ2 has too many classes, and the "just another scout" feeling (and the continual balancing problems) is a result of that problem. </P> <P>Anyway, in the end, EQ2 is still a great game with a ton of potential; I just got tired of waiting for that potential to be fulfilled. I made it to 70 with my favorite class, ran the same instances and raids for months, and just plain got bored. As Gerdos said, if you aren't part of a solid raiding guild, your ability to experience the remaining content begins to evaporate once you hit the cap. That doesn't mean EQ2 is inherently flawed; there *should* be content that you have to have a good raid force to experience, that's a necessary part of the game. But for me, as a generally casual player, I eventually felt like I was out of options. I got tired of the time commitment required for raiding, and bored with the same instances every week. I just started looking for a new place to spend my gaming time, and found that I was having a lot more fun elsewhere.  </P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Sulas wrote: <DIV>I'm making this post only to point out the conflict in your argument.  This kind of acquiescence is the reason problems persist.<BR><BR>On one hand you state it is a useless skill yet defend it as functioning as intended,  Given that reasoning, do you really intend to suggest that the developers have *intentionally* given us a skill that is intended to be useless to us? <BR><BR>If we want broken mechanics or skills fixed/ adjusted then we have to push for it.  Quiet acceptance will only leave us frustrated.  In the case of Hawk Dive, if you all agree it's useless, then there *is* something wrong.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is no conflict in my arguement.</P> <P>Its not a broken mechanic.. Its been stated before  that Hawk Dive and all other pets WILL break stealth. Dont believe that? Grab windrazer, wait for it to proc, then try and stealth. Pets breaking stealth is not just a ranger thing.. It happens to everyone.</P> <P>Hawk Dive sucks. Period. Therefore making is useless in the eyes of many rangers, however,  Im sure there are quite a few solo rangers out there that will tell you they enjoy Hawk Dive, and that they find it useful... ask most raiding rangers.. its useless.. Its a matter of perspective.</P> <P>Hawk Dive would most likely have been a great addition to a rangers arsenal IF the proc mechanice of DoF werent fixed. Back when rangers could actually pull agro off their MT this "skill" would have actually come in handy. As far as rangers go now, we dont need any more hate reducers.</P> <P>No one that I know of has "quitely accepted"  Hawk Dive in its current state. Its been modified at least once, and was considered for another modification that fell threw before the end of beta. That right there tells me that the Devs are aware of the "current state of suck"(tm) but just dont know what to do to make it useful. It sucks that we had a Dev walk into the forums and announce the great change only to revert that before beta ended... but what can you do?</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Tarryn]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote: <P>... but what can you do?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Er...go ahead and put in the fix that fell through?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(And either ignore the griping about it on PvP servers or implement a different fix there.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...But that's just a thought.  I'm kinda heading in the same direction as Kaeros myself.  I've been having an absolute blast with the beta of an upcoming MMO.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV>

[LoreLady]

Honestly I see the problem directly tied in to SoA, if I were SoE, id be looking at ways to incorperate the SoA EoF AA, with hawkdive to make it so its not overpowering..

[dancer]

<DIV>Imma have to say to the guy parsing on the top off all the parses in his guild raids.  Not to flame, but your not super uber and doing everything right, some of your guildies are doing something wrong.  Ive tried everything on top of everything to get ahead of our necro's and assassins, and if they want to beat me.. theyre going to. probably while glancing over at the tv too.</DIV>

[LoreLady]

More aa's, better gear, more masters.. That helps..Again - learn to button mash instead of click - that will increase ur dps right there.

[xandez]

if i just could use poisons with my warden, i could outparse my ranger <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />thenagain, i have heals and some nice group utility... evac and ports... muahahaha <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xanso you still wonder, why theres something wrong with the ranger class??<div></div>

[Hisvet]

<P>Rangers aren't just archers, right but they are PRIMARILY Archers.  Even maxed out for melee damage you will not get even half your damage from melee, its from a bow.</P> <P>I'm a raiding ranger and what has made me angry is the fact that we are the ONLY class that is not rewarded with an item for our primary utility (ranged dps) from any of the Big/Major questlines of the game.</P> <P>We don't get a bow in the prismatic 1.0 Speak Like a Dragon series</P> <P>We don't get a bow in Godking Peacock's Quest</P> <P>We don't get a bow for the f'ing Claymore Quest </P> <P>All of which I've completed, none of which help our ranged.   We have to hope for *2* rare bow drops for our equivalent in 2 or more raid zones to get the equivalent of any of that and what others are getting.  One for ammo, one for damage.  </P> <P>Spell casters get orbs, symbols, staffs that help their spell/healing damage, tanks get shields and blades to help them stay alife and keep aggro, all non rangers get weapons that suit their style.  That's just not right.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hisvet wrote:<div></div> <p>Rangers aren't just archers, right but they are PRIMARILY Archers.  Even maxed out for melee damage you will not get even half your damage from melee, its from a bow.</p> <p>I'm a raiding ranger and what has made me angry is the fact that we are the ONLY class that is not rewarded with an item for our primary utility (ranged dps) from any of the Big/Major questlines of the game.</p> <p>We don't get a bow in the prismatic 1.0 Speak Like a Dragon series</p> <p>We don't get a bow in Godking Peacock's Quest</p> <p>We don't get a bow for the f'ing Claymore Quest<font color="#ff0000"> Totally agree, but its no big deal.</font> </p> <p>All of which I've completed, none of which help our ranged.   We have to hope for *2* rare bow drops for our equivalent in 2 or more raid zones to get the equivalent of any of that and what others are getting.  One for ammo, one for damage.  </p> <p>Spell casters get orbs, symbols, staffs that help their spell/healing damage, tanks get shields and blades to help them stay alife and keep aggro, all non rangers get weapons that suit their style.  That's just not right. <font color="#ff0000">I dont care about a bow in that kinda thing, I just wnat something that summones t8 ammo and ranger only.</font> </p> <hr></blockquote></div>

[Hisvet]

<DIV>At this point I'd take the ammo too, though I don't care if its ranger only.  Its at least something that aids in our primary damage/utility, class purpose.  As it is the dual wields are meh primary hand proc only. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd still like a bow on even one of those quests, just once a magic quiver to make arrows like ichorstrand though would be just as keen.  </DIV>

[kartikeya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hawk Dive sucks. Period. Therefore making is useless in the eyes of many rangers, however,  <FONT color=#cc0000>Im sure there are quite a few solo rangers out there that will tell you they enjoy Hawk Dive</FONT>, and that they find it useful... ask most raiding rangers.. its useless.. Its a matter of perspective.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>When I'm not raiding I'm almost always solo. I tried to incorporate hawk dive into my regimen when I got it. I really, really wanted to like it. It's kinda sorta sometimes possible to get the mob to aggro the hawk, but generally it's way more trouble than it's worth, and I haven't bothered with using it seriously in either raiding or soloing in quite some time.</P> <P>Sometimes I let it fly as a joke, and squawk a line from the Wizard of Oz. That's about all the use I find for it.</P>

[TerriBlades]

Im sure I dont need to point this out, but I did say "quite a few" and not "all" solo rangers.

[kartikeya]

*shrugs* I was just offering my personal take on it, as a soloer.

[Mono]

<DIV>One of the advantages of being a ranger is we are ranged thats the whole point. I think melee is only an option when mobs don't have an ae or your close to them or have  a master strike. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However the new aa's are positive my dps has improved even did 2445 on alzid in labs last nite and if you get an illusionist in your grp there new buff that buffs double attack on 25% of attacks is very sweet as well..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However no one can say things are ideal for rangers still ammo cost issues and lack of decent bows. Rain caller is an amazing solo bow so i can't complain there either. Perhaps once Emerald halls gets onto farm status and i have 100 aa's and a nice shiny bow i'll quieten down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alot of the top raid rangers don't complain cos they've got nothing to complain about they've got all the gear and top parse however we're so dependent on that gear i think. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm enjoying my ranger more but still feel i've alot to learn in my mind there the hardest class to play properly.</DIV>

[Starness]

<P>Unfortunately, with the adjustments made in EoF it's usefulness to soloers was reduced. In adding the fact that the bird deagros itself, they also reduced the amount of hate the bird siphons. I played with the bird solo when in KoS now and again. It was difficult to keep the mob on the bird, you really had to use your deagros. I've played with it after and now it's even harder for the bird to keep agro.</P>