Hawk Dive improved!

[Ravenwind]

<DIV>From Beta Patch Notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Ranger: Hawk Dive: Duration is now 20 seconds and increases through upgrades. While the hate siphoning effect is active, any stealth required abilities do not require the stealthing effect to use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this ia a GREAT fix.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RavenwindBR wrote:<BR> <DIV>From Beta Patch Notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Ranger: Hawk Dive: Duration is now 20 seconds and increases through upgrades. While the hate siphoning effect is active, any stealth required abilities do not require the stealthing effect to use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this ia a GREAT fix.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>is that for real or is it a joke?

[Jeris Nefz]

I hope this fix goes through.  I might even have to put it back on my hotbar.  HUGE improvement and makes it actually useful.

[Lockeye]

<DIV>not included yet in those notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>-Ranger: Hawk Dive: Hawk reduces hate with the target it strikes, greatly reducing the amount of hate that gets dumped on the ranger when it expires. <DIV> </DIV>

[Verm75]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div>not included yet in those notes:</div> <div> </div>-Ranger: Hawk Dive: Hawk reduces hate with the target it strikes, greatly reducing the amount of hate that gets dumped on the ranger when it expires. <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Well thanks for this worthless AA.Hawk does nothing and just hinders our dps.</div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">NOW we're talkin'.  Which one of you spiked the kool-aid at SOE headquarters today?  Too many good changes....</font><div></div>

[lilmohi]

i'm actually giddy.  :smileyvery-happy:

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>not included yet in those notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>-Ranger: Hawk Dive: Hawk reduces hate with the target it strikes, <FONT color=#ff0000><EM>greatly reducing the amount of hate that gets dumped on the ranger when it expires.</EM> </FONT> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lockeye does this second part include reducing it if it dies early to an AE ?</P> <P> </P>

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<DIV>not included yet in those notes:</DIV><DIV> </DIV>-Ranger: Hawk Dive: Hawk reduces hate with the target it strikes, greatly reducing the amount of hate that gets dumped on the ranger when it expires.<hr></blockquote>Any chance of this getting propogated over to the necromancer AAs for our swarm pets? Increasing their duration when they die every single AE is pretty useless, whereas not having as much of their hate dump on their owner IS actually a useful AA idea.

[KnightOfTheWo]

Wow, just...wow. This will definitely be a nice new toy to play with...<span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Ravenwind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Verm75 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>not included yet in those notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>-Ranger: Hawk Dive: Hawk reduces hate with the target it strikes, greatly reducing the amount of hate that gets dumped on the ranger when it expires. <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well thanks for this worthless AA.<BR><BR>Hawk does nothing and just hinders our dps.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Did you even read the 2 mine and Lockeye's posts?  This is an INCREASE in dps...</P> <P>This means that when your hawk is out, you can fire off any stealth CA without waiting for surveil to refresh.  Think Sniper Shot without having to surveillance first, followed immediately by Veiled Fire, run up, use Ranger's Blade, Longblade and Emberstrike and still have surveillance to pop off when you wanna dump some extra agro.  </P> <P>Not to mention that since the hate dumped on us when the hawk dies early is pretty much gone, Hawk Dive just made my regular lineup again!</P> <P>Thanks Lockeye, this is a really great change to Hawk Dive!</P>

[TaleraRis]

<DIV>Hmmm. Will have to test that. Doesn't not having to stealth at all for our stealth attacks seem a little overpowered?</DIV>

[Jayad]

<DIV>Anybody remember some people telling us how the hawk didn't accumulate that hate? heh. </DIV>

[Corwinus]

Raveneye is totally right, i just tried it on beta while soloing, while the hawk is out no need of surveillance to fire cas that normally required us to be stealthed.---> great improvement for raids though i would certainly launch a few elude before he dies just to be sure the hate does not backfire on me.Wanderer Corwin - Oasis<div></div>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:<div></div> <div>Hmmm. Will have to test that. Doesn't not having to stealth at all for our stealth attacks seem a little overpowered?</div><hr></blockquote>Not really, Assassins get a similiar skill.  It is so easy for predators to get into stealth it isn't a huge deal.These changes are awesome, well done devs.  If the aggro reduction works as advertised now, this will be a very important part of the ranger skillset.</div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:46 PM</span>

[Jayad]

Rangers don't really need a lot more stealth than the two combat stealthing skills provide.   As an assassin you do.  But it's a cool feature, it does make the hawk more useful!

[Stormhawk]

<div></div>Oh snap... Does the no stealth requirement effect the entire group since the siphon is a group effect?  That would be so awesome if it does. I wonder if my boss would get angry if I logged into beta to test that right now....<span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:01 PM</span>

[Jay]

<DIV>Holy crap, Hawk Dive could be a useful skill after all... now I gotta find a space on my hotbar for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the way the wind is blowing lately, Stream of Arrows might end up being an increase in DPS! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GG Lockeye!</DIV>

[TaleraRis]

Wow, you're right. I don't have to stealth at all.What level do I get this ability again? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <div></div>

[Viglundr]

the new hawk version rocks. going to be used as much as possible now!!! Well done SOE!!!! Keep it up!!<BR>

[kidpaul]

<div></div>Wow look at all them happy rangers... making a cool change to a combat ability "we" have complained about for a longtime, adding a quest that turns people into rangers kinda makes you wonder what horrible change they got in store for us now... no more bows maybe. naah just kiding this is great <div></div><p>Message Edited by kidpaul on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 PM</span>

[Rhannnn]

<P>Would it be worth it to upgrade this spell from adept3 to M1 ?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Rhan Ranger</P> <P> </P> <P>GroeneDraeck</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Rhannnn on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 AM</span>

[pseudocide]

<P>well i was pretty apathetic about getting this spell until i could find an adept 1 for cheap, but now i will have to get the a3 made.</P> <P>this will be really useful for focus aim especially in long raid fights (assuming it is safe to use now)</P>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rhannnn wrote:<BR> <P>Would it be worth it to upgrade this spell from adept3 to M1 ?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Rhan Ranger</P> <P> </P> <P>GroeneDraeck</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Rhannnn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:11 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh</P> <P>I'm going to pick up an M1 tonight, while they are still on the broker cheap...  :smileywink:</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RavenwindBR wrote:<BR> <DIV>From Beta Patch Notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Ranger: Hawk Dive: Duration is now 20 seconds and increases through upgrades. <FONT color=#ff0000>While the hate siphoning effect is active, any stealth required abilities do not require the stealthing effect to use.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this ia a GREAT fix.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Wait... Did I just read that right?? Is this to say that if the hawk is out, I wont need to stealth for Selection, Veiled, Snipers and the rest? Cause if thats right, this once useless bird will come in handy now.<BR>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>I've always used it, and have never had a problem getting agro from it.  Timing was always the issue on this though.   Now, with the new changes timing isn't as important, and rather then using it now and again, i can see it being used reguarly.   Very nice change !!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, what's the adept 3 hate reduction % ??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[doyler2k]

First post on here guys..been reading alot lately on these forums.Just thought id say 'Hey'. If this means we can fire off our stealthed CAs this hawk will be invaluable in raids,will help so much with dps i think. Can this be confirmed perhaps. pantheron 70 ranger Runnyeye <div></div>

[SpiralDown]

<div></div>Whoa, I just wanted the thing to not break my stealth... Never seen them go above and beyond like this <span>:smileytongue:</span> That new AP looks alot better now.  The bird could add DPS and utility to us.  The DPS increase wont be in a simple +15% dmg to CAs kinda way, rather it'll take some thought to get the most out of it; save stealth CAs for the bird and the others for Focus Aim.  Plus, the hate reduction along with greater willingness and ability to keep the thing out may make it like a poorman's troubador.  I've always liked the bird, but now I love it <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by SpiralDown on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 PM</span>

[littleman17]

<DIV>There is just one thing that worries, it says that only while the hate siphon is active... Currently, the siphon is only up about 25% of the time when I use the hawk... that means for me, this hawk is still useless 75% of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Call me when they fix this thing so that it straight out doesn't break stealth... untill then, this thing will stay at ad1 only to be used when I'm bored or fighting a ^ mob (where I can't use stealth attacks anyways)</DIV>

[Mirdo]

<P>This sounds like a great Improvement for the raiding Ranger. I can't wait to try it out.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[MagicWand]

<DIV>Luckily I bought this Master 1, and if I were you I would be it while its still cheap on the broker.</DIV>

[jarlaxle8]

<P>Wow! Seems like this thing will see more use then just as distraction while running away :smileyvery-happy: Now I'm finally glad I was 'lucky' to get this one as Master 1 from guild.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> littleman17 wrote:<BR> <DIV>There is just one thing that worries, it says that only while the hate siphon is active... Currently, the siphon is only up about 25% of the time when I use the hawk... that means for me, this hawk is still useless 75% of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Call me when they fix this thing so that it straight out doesn't break stealth... untill then, this thing will stay at ad1 only to be used when I'm bored or fighting a ^ mob (where I can't use stealth attacks anyways)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not in beta, so can't confirm. But those that are seem happy with it, they've said they can pull off all stealth attacks.<BR>Can we have that confirmed from you beta guys? :smileyhappy:<BR></P>

[SpiralDown]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>littleman17 wrote:<div>There is just one thing that worries, it says that only while the hate siphon is active... Currently, the siphon is only up about 25% of the time when I use the hawk... that means for me, this hawk is still useless 75% of the time.</div> <div> </div> <div>Call me when they fix this thing so that it straight out doesn't break stealth... untill then, this thing will stay at ad1 only to be used when I'm bored or fighting a ^ mob (where I can't use stealth attacks anyways)</div><hr></blockquote>I'm confused on your logic.  The bird now does 4 things with no negatives:  lowers aggro of group, tank in a couple situations, is a DoT, and elliminates the need for stealth (the last 2 increasing DPS).  Where it used to do 3 thing with 1 negative: lowers group aggro, tank in a couple situations, is a DoT, while lowering DPS to use any of these... seems like a huge improvement to me. This is great for soloers... you can probably get Rangerblade off with Cheapshot against ^ mobs since setting it up by stealthing wont be needed; use Emberstrike without the set-up of Cheapshot and/or Longblade, just use it like another melee attack; in face to face it will increase DPS without needing to worry about timing it with Cheapshot's reuse; and if jumped you can let the bird peel aggro, back off and then use Sniper Shot or Veiled Fire. In groups and raids the aggro siphon will help others, without us needing to give anything up anymore.  Just keep the thing up and its a DoT. With the aggro dumping issue being lessened (though I haven't had a problem with this with the current bird) and the short recast timer, who cares if an AoE kills it?  Focus Fire and Veiled or Sniper will be a better combo, just time the end of Focus with Sniper and the casting time becomes meaningless. Its all about timing, wait till the bird siphons, then go at it... btw, aslong as you start casting with siphon up, the no-stealth requirement will stand.  If it still does break stealth somehow, just time it better. The bird went from being very situational to use at every chance you can.  Plus gives better group utility, than it used to be.<div></div><p>Message Edited by SpiralDown on <span class="date_text">11-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:10 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by SpiralDown on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 AM</span>

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MagicWand wrote:<BR> <DIV>Luckily I bought this Master 1, and if I were you I would be it while its still cheap on the broker.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As soon as I saw this post this morning I put a request on the guild website - an officer has already purchased one for me to pick up when I get off work <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RavenwindBR wrote:<BR> <DIV>From Beta Patch Notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Ranger: Hawk Dive: Duration is now 20 seconds and increases through upgrades. While the hate siphoning effect is active, any stealth required abilities do not require the stealthing effect to use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this ia a GREAT fix.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow! Just....Wow...and with Lockeyes post following that one up...</P> <P>Thank you developers for taking the time to give us some help.  Thanks for brainstorming amongst yourselves and with players.  </P> <P>Wow.<BR></P>

[TaleraRis]

<DIV>We've already confirmed it multiple places, but yes, I was using the hawk last night on beta and none of my stealth-required attacks required stealth. It was fantastic to fire off Emberstrike right in the mob's face, and Ranger's Blade is definitely quite possible with Cheap Shot now, although even before on ^ mobs I was able to get Cheap Shot, Longblade and then Ranger's. Now I can save Longblade for after the bird is down. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still learning to use it solo, but I'm able to get off Veiled Fire, Triple Volley and Precise before the mob loses interest in the bird and comes for me. With some more practice at dumping aggro there, I imagine I'll be able to safely fire off volley after volley as long as the bird is up. I have the AA extension on beta, which is 38 seconds for me, but I believe someone said the M1 version is 30? I don't even know if as a soloer I'll need the AA, since my guildmate has been holding an M1 for me for a while on a night he won a (we thought useless then, teehee) ranger master in his group. But in 38 seconds the hawk was extremely helpful and increased my DPS by quite a bit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is going to go into a soloer's bread and butter category along with Cheap Shot. We can such a huge advantage over how we soloed previously that it would be foolish not to utlize the hawk, once you're at the level to get it. I'm going to be doing some heavy grinding on Live in the next few days, I see <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[wajamacallit]

<P>Does anyone else use hawk dive to pull.   I noticed a couple of days ago that the range on this was 40m.  So I experimented on some Basilisks and indeed they will come when set upon by my hawk.   I have not tried using this is areas with social agro and plucking specific mobs but would be interested to hear if anyone else has and the results.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>wot4 wrote:<div></div> <p>Does anyone else use hawk dive to pull.   I noticed a couple of days ago that the range on this was 40m.  So I experimented on some Basilisks and indeed they will come when set upon by my hawk.   I have not tried using this is areas with social agro and plucking specific mobs but would be interested to hear if anyone else has and the results.</p> <hr></blockquote>I've pulled with HD, and had the hawk keep agro for more than one entire fight. Granted it was basalisks, but still...</div>

[Balerius]

<P>There is one thing though....</P> <P><STRONG><EM>Everything</EM></STRONG> we've each had to learn about how to maximize our dps after the EoF nerf to rangers will now be thrown out of the window.</P> <P>Time to L2P again.</P>

[panther55]

When he says duration will be increased through upgrades is that like getting the master I instead of the adept 3 or the new AA line he is talking about?<div></div>

[Mronin]

Beta buffed and tested this last night. Hawk works as advertised in terms of being able to use stealthed attacks while the hawk is out. It does indeed stay up longer and does indeed do more damage. I have yet to be able to have hawk maintain aggro for more than ten or so seconds but since that's not necessarily what I'm using it for I don't mind (on live I have hawk dive at M1). This is a regular use skill for me and this is a distinct improvement.

[Torrin]

This will be screamed at by players on PvP servers for a nerf.. I can already tell.Back months ago there was a bug that made it into the game.  This bug gave Ranger's the ability to stack their Stealth modes (Combine In-combat Stealth with normal Stealth) and would grant them perma-stealth for the entirity that they did not leave the zone.  This was a bug known by few people, atleast on my server, but was used to wicked advantages..  I did not have Sniper Shot at the time but when I discovered the bug (one of the first to find it) I looked to see just how far the bug went..  I could chain attack Shadow Lunge + EmberStrike + Hidden Shot + Shadow Lunge + EmberStrike almost constantly.. and never once went into stealth to do them..  Using that method full geared Plate Tanks (highest mit in my tier ya know) went down without a fight.. Nothing could stand upto a ranger who knew about that bug and who used it efficiently.This Hawk change sounds like the Bug got turned into a true Weapon.  And while It will be good on Raids, I'm apprehensive about it's power in PvP.  Am I down talking this change? Hell no! I'll finally be deadlier in Melee combat now with this ability.. Throw a snare, Throw the hawk, unload with Veiled Fire / Selection, then Ranger Blade and EmberFlame as they get close.. by then the Hawk if worn off so I just Root restealth and use Ember / Blade again.. and seeing as I have all my Stealth Skills (Except Sniper Shot) at Master1 they all do atleast 800-1000 damage non-crit.. with Crits about 1600-2000 (Ember / Blade ~3000) or 2000+ (Selection) and not tested my new M1 V.Fire yet at Crit.. So.. while I like the idea.. I can also see the coming of many many many people crying out "nerf Rangers" in the distant future because of this.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

If they change this because of PvP on the PvE servers, then *I* will be the one screaming.<div></div>

[Mronin]

<blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:If they change this because of PvP on the PvE servers, then *I* will be the one screaming.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You and me both Gwyneth.

[SpiralDown]

Yeah, I can hear those cries already, but the cries aren't always answered. Over all, I see this change as going mostly unnoticed by others.  It'll boost soloing and over all DPS by a bit, but who's going to be yelling about that stuff.  Many even consider rangers underpowered, so a DPS boost may go by with a "good for you,"  and if someone other than a ranger notices the soloing changes they must just be a jerk you hates rangers <span>:smileytongue:</span>  It will be in pvp that any notice, but the bird is different than the stealth bug mentioned. The bird is easy to defeat, the pvp people only need to learn to kill the thing.  I can see them reducing the hp on the bird to answer any whiners that pop up, though. <div></div>

[Barramundi]

<div></div>Has this reverted back to the old CA in beta already? I tried it for the first time in beta today and although the CA description says stealth attacks can be used I was unable to initiate any stealth CA's with the hawk up and the hawk still breaks stealth after surveillance. I get the message "I need to be stealthed". Or am I doing something wrong?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Barramundi on <span class=date_text>11-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:07 PM</span>

[Vifarc]

I was using Hawk Dive just before Stream of Arrows, as with Stream you can't do anything including stealth.<div></div>

[Katsugen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vifarc wrote:<BR>I was using Hawk Dive just before Stream of Arrows, as with Stream you can't do anything including stealth.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What is the value of using stream? Unless there was some drastic change recently this skill still sucked lemons.</P> <P>Also on a side note, last time I tried hawk dive on beta it was back to it's old self.</P> <P>-Katsugen</P>

[Mronin]

<div></div>Yes this has been reverted back to the way it was before and I cant even begin to describe how F'ing mad I am that there isn't even so much as a mention about it from the devs in the update notes on beta. Not one [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] word from the devs, nada zip zilch zero. I can live with it going back to the way it was before because it's still a very useful tool, but it is simply amazing to me that they finally make this even more useful and give Rangers a break. Only to have it yanked again without so much as a "yeah were changing this back again, suck it up" post. Oh but wait PvP wasn't supposed to effect PvE....Hummmmm I'm officially gonna call BS on this one.Edited to add that not only has it been reverted back and that this is something which they are aware of but there IS NO WORD as to weather or not this is going to be fixed.  Also I used to be able to time short casting stealth CA's between beak strikes, now that can not be done.  It is now IMPOSSIBLE to stealth PERIOD while hawk is out.<p>Message Edited by Mronin on <span class=date_text>11-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:28 PM</span>

[Torrin]

I can't say that I didn't see it coming.. but was really hoping it would stay as they had changed it.. I was looking forward to being able to go toe to toe against Assassins and Brigs Melee for a change and actually having a chance to win.  <div></div>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div>Hawk Dive is NOT working right now.  If you attempt to use a stealth art with it up, it does not let you.The description still says it does this so I don't think they devs meant to break it.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>11-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:25 PM</span>

[Barramundi]

The CA description in beta has reverted back to not having the stealth attack enabling ability.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

They just do that when they brought the servers down earlier? When I got on prior to that, it still said that about stealth abilities.<div></div>

[Starness]

Yup, the description has been reverted.

[TaleraRis]

I truly hope it's a bug, especially because it was a dev that drew our attention to it in the first place.<div></div>

[SpiralDown]

That would be such a mean tease.  Show the love then pull it away even before most could touch <span>:smileysad:</span> I did hear about guilds losing levels, so there are bugs floating around. <div></div>

[Kukuzhong]

<DIV>First off, if Hawk Dive was reverted to its old state due to PvP issues, i would like to say a big "FU" once again to promises made that PvP balance would not affect PvE...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If PvP is the concern, why can't they have separate rulesets for the servers? Time and time again they have to do things like this that [Removed for Content] people off...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/rant off</DIV>

[Wil81115]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kukuzhong wrote:<BR> <DIV>First off, if Hawk Dive was reverted to its old state due to PvP issues, i would like to say a big "FU" once again to promises made that PvP balance would not affect PvE...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If PvP is the concern, why can't they have separate rulesets for the servers? Time and time again they have to do things like this that [Removed for Content] people off...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/rant off</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Totally agree.  Wasn't it stated that PVP wouldn't effect PVE.  Well there it goes again.  I'd be happy just to have it NOT break my stealth while its out.    Seriously Lockeye, throw us that bone atleast.

[xandez]

wooback to ~ useless CA then... while it may have its uses, they are once again, severely limited by this... ++Xan<div></div>

[Starness]

<DIV>Yup, back onto the useless hotbar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On an aside, guilds deleveling isn't a bug. They made it take more XP to get from 51-60. Apparently the amount needed to go from 1-60 before only gets you to 52 now.</DIV>

[TaleraRis]

<DIV>Yeah, they said guilds would lose their levels because of it. So that's not a bug.</DIV>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barramundi wrote:<BR>The CA description in beta has reverted back to not having the stealth attack enabling ability.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your kidding, right?  </P> <P>great.  Right after I go out and buy a friggen master of it.  Why bother to change it if you are going to change it right back?  I hate having masters that don't even make my hot bars.</P>

[Mronin]

As of my testing last night it still TOTALLY prevented stealth.  Two hours of trying to once again time fast cast CA's between beak strikes to no avail.  To say I am angry about this would be mild understatement.  Oh and the whole "PvP wont effect the PvE dynamic"..... BULL S.........  total, utter, complete, 100% pure grade A BOVINE SCATOLOGY.  PvP has and will continue to effect PvE play with each and every expansion/adventure pack/live update.  But I'll come back tonight to beta and tomorrow to live after the servers have come back up and play my Ranger to the best of my abilities as my own personal F U to SOE because I refuse to give them the satisfaction of driving me out.  When I leave it will be on MY terms and NOT theirs.<div></div>

[Jeris Nefz]

<P>Lockeye, </P> <P>Is this a bug, broken, oopsie, or intended?  If it is intended, why was the change made?  Will this skill be actually useful again or will I need to clear it from my hotbar?  I do hope that SOE does do something to make this ability more than it is now... a fluff spell that <STRONG>hinders dps</STRONG>.  If this is a PVP vs PVE change, why not just change the ruleset for the ability?  You claim that you CAN do it... so why don't you?</P> <P>Edit: clarifying the jumbled jargon</P><p>Message Edited by Jeris Nefzen on <span class=date_text>11-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:54 PM</span>

[Ruldayen]

<P>Too bad for us it was a creative way to get around that flaw in that Combat Art and give us some utility . </P> <P>Is the reason for not having more utility or dps for raids cause we are molded after the PvP ranger ? Or is range considered a utility?</P> <P>Ruldayen </P>

[Jayad]

PVP claims another CA sacrifice.  Aren't the gods appeased yet?

[Axor]

<P>its pretty sad that the class with less utility is not the most dps one as it should be.</P> <P> </P> <P>If we have no Utility get us back to tier 1 DPS without needing to get a uber fabled bow and another rare fabled bow for ammo.</P>

[pseudocide]

<DIV>if they leave it as is that is complete bull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>something</U> needs to be done with hawk dive.</DIV>

[Tobann]

After the Dev responce 2 days ago I jumped for joy,went right out and bought a Master version of Hawk Dive. Now I find the ability has been totally reversed, making it harmfull instead of helpfull. If this is true Im greatly teed off. Make us all happy just to dash our hopes. Not only that Im out 9 pp for a CA I wont even want to use. Id say this must be a joke,except it really isnt very funny.Buaf  70 Ranger Befallen<div></div>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tobann wrote:<BR>After the Dev responce 2 days ago I jumped for joy,went right out and bought a Master version of Hawk Dive. Now I find the ability has been totally reversed, making it harmfull instead of helpfull. If this is true Im greatly teed off. Make us all happy just to dash our hopes. Not only that Im out 9 pp for a CA I wont even want to use. Id say this must be a joke,except it really isnt very funny.<BR><BR>Buaf  70 Ranger Befallen<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>9 plat?!?  I got it for 3 plat on Oasis.   Man... sometimes the economy just seems out of whack.  Kinda like Hawk Dive  :smileymad:

[Kukuzhong]

<DIV>If PvP balance is so Fu-dging important to the Devs, i hope that they would at least <STRONG>consider the implications BEFORE they implement changes</STRONG>, even to test/beta! </DIV> <DIV>NOT place candy in our hands, then before we can take a bite, snatch it back and laugh in our faces...</DIV>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV>I've had Hawk Dive at master 1 for a long time now, and thankfully, I never had to pay for it. However, after making the changes to Hawk, it would seem that the skill would become an important part of the rangers arsenal. That, coupled with the fact that a dev was the one that pointed it out, led several ppl to buy the master that didnt previously have it. So I can understand why a lot of ppl are going to be [Removed for Content] off about this. I really think that something should have been said about the change. Even if it was just to let us know that it had been reverted back to it previous state. As a CA in its current state, it sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and will continue to go unused by this ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for any Devs that might be reading this, the next time you want to give us a nice new CA, think about what we'd find useful before just giving us more crapstastic stuff.</DIV>

[Fromingo]

Why do you think PvP changed it back?  Every PvP spell/CA can be altered for when used in PvP, so seems like they could remove the 'no need for stealth' part in PvP version. 

[Merkad]

I would hazard a guess that many, myself included, think so based off prior instances as well as lack of communication. For example, Storm of Arrows and Debilitating Arrow were once castable while moving. That was removed around KoS launch, no explanation given, but many many PvP'ers cried over it (and indeed, it was a great tool for PvP/duels). This is despite Moorguard or Blackguard explicitly saying we would retain mobility on some of our ranged skills when so many had their mobility removed with the DoF changes. Now we only have a back/side and a stealth attack remaining with mobility left on..nothing useful for PvP/dueling/Solo'ing. Also add in Thorny Trap, it mysteriously got downgraded in it's positional lock, size, damage, and duration with nary a word of explanation. Coincidentally, that broke it for the next few months, quite fun.Hawk Dive's proposed change was quite cool, and very powerful in dueling/PvP, and with no answers forthcoming (and indeed, I doubt many of us would believe them anyways <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) what else are we to believe? Though I do agree with you, on the tagged aspect of CAs.. the Devs clearly said they can flag skills to be differently for PvE and PvP, but honestly, that does not seem to work unless it is a heal or damage skill. Quite amusing, but I quite clearly hate PvP, aside from all the leet folks, it continues to mar the PvE side of the game.. but fear not PvP'ers, I hate tradeskillers too, and botters/plat sellers/poisons...better stop now while I am ahead <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.<div></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<P>It's funny how people like to jump to conclusions :smileyvery-happy: The skill is back to old, and now a lot of PvE folks blame PvP (mind you, I play on PvE).</P> <P>I'm not in beta, but as I see it those folks that are didn't mention some patch note. They havn't brought forward any reasons most of the time for nerfs, but one thing is clear: they mentioned the changes in patch notes. Be it ranged attacks on the move, stream of arrows minimum range, thorny trap downgrade, whatever. With this one, they mentioned the positive change. But the change back wasn't mentioned. If it was intended, I'd think they would mention that, no? They have no reason to ninja nerf, they know people will notice right away.</P> <P>Anyway, it's my hope it was unintended.</P>

[Lev]

and I for one does not think this skill will be overpowering for PvP.. not more than PvE at least.. in a fight between 2 players the hawk itself is quite useful cause it does dmg and most likely the other player will want to kill it fast, however beeing visible while casting a high damage stealth attack like veiled fire or sniper shot would be extremely bad. What makes ranger good in PvP is their combination of stealth and range and seeing as the bird still breaks stealth I don't think it would be that useful.I am not a PvPer so I probably miss alot of the points and strats, but I still believe this to be true to some degree.and as Jarlaxle said we have yet to see any official word on this<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV>If this was a simple mistake thats cool and all, but it wouldnt be the first time something in game was ninja nerfed, but the fact that not one single dev has said anything about it, leads myself, and many others here to believe this was an intentional change. For whatever reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the reasons most of us blame PvP... well most of our changes are directly related to "balance" in PvP, even though we were told that PvP woudnt affect PvE. Again, its not something they admit to, but why would they change the few "on the move" CAs we have after they told us the ones we had left after the first change would stay the same?</DIV>

[Merkad]

I quite clearly recall the Stream of Arrows notes and reasoning and did not include it. If, and I stress if, the other ones I mentioned were mentioned at all, I assure you it was well after the fact, and still quite unexplained.What ever the reason for the skill change is, the fact that things are either not explained or explained well after the fact really only has one logical conclusion: people will try to reason out the cause. Anyone should know this, and knowing this (as a Dev), if it bothers you (or your customers) then one would think that they should explain it a bit sooner. Is it too hard to test a change (to see possible rammifications) or mention that a change or current ability is too much and needs to be toned down? The patch notes are only part of what people want, though I will be the first to say that it would be too much work to explain their reasoning on every little aspect of the game, I hardly think it is for the few skills I mentioned, especially as it contradicts earlier statements by the Devs.You are right that they have no reason to ninja nerf, but that will not stop them from doing so. And again, the obvious reasons are because they affect PvP rather strongly, what other reason is sufficient enough for them to nerf something? They have said they don't mind a class being a little overpowered (Rangers from t6, or Brigs/Zerkers/Summoners now).Regardless, I did not buy my master of Hawk Dive and if it remains in the old form it is not like I gained or lost anything, other than a fleeting moment where I thought "hey, this might be cool".Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.<div></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RabbitFly wrote:<BR>and I for one does not think this skill will be overpowering for PvP.. not more than PvE at least.. in a fight between 2 players the hawk itself is quite useful cause it does dmg and most likely the other player will want to kill it fast, however beeing visible while casting a high damage stealth attack like veiled fire or sniper shot would be extremely bad. What makes ranger good in PvP is their combination of stealth and range and seeing as the bird still breaks stealth I don't think it would be that useful.<BR><BR>I am not a PvPer so I probably miss alot of the points and strats, but I still believe this to be true to some degree.<BR><BR>and as Jarlaxle said we have yet to see any official word on this<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I'm not on PvP either, so I was hesitant to ramble on about something not seen first hand. But I doubt as well that with the improved hawk Rangers will get overpowered. Not able to stealth in PvP, even when the few stealth attacks we have could be used, can mean an easy target to nuke at, or getting bashed up real good in mellee. At least that's what I would expect. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Assasins have with Concealment something similar. Is shorter duration, but considering they have most stealth attacks mellee, they can fire off a lot with that. It even puts em in stealth after every attack (unlike the hawk, which prevents stealth even in improved form). Doesn't seem to make em overpowered in PvP.</P>

[Gerdos]

<P>Post moved to here where it's more appropriate.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BtilTheMage wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#cc0000>Fixing a pretty much broken skill and then unfixing it two days later is really, really, REALLY stupid.  I'd like to know how SOE can think that's even remotely acceptable.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OK, first of, its not broken on live.   This works as intended.   It's a very handy utility, but the downside is that it affects our own DPS by breaking our stealth.   Although, combining Longblade to put you into stealth followed with Ember Strike or Rangers Blade works fine b/w the hawk attacks.   So timing is crutial for 1. stealth/attack combo and 2. greatest benefit to us while having minimal impact on our dps ... usually b/w the 25sec - 1min mark of an encounter.</P> <P>Secondly, there used to be a problem with hawk pulling agro reguarly in the early weeks of KoS.  This was fixed many months ago.  I've never pulled agro because of the hawk.</P> <P>Thirdly, for rangers who dont have this on their hotkeys/bars ... your doing a disservice to your own group, raid and guild.   It really is a very handy utility, although, it does take skill to use affectively.  Not having it on your hotbars, is just plain lazy. At the very least, have it setup on a hotkey ... because there will be times where you could and should use it.   Practise it, learn to control it instead of it controlling you.</P> <P>I dont use it often, but i do for long encounters, and where there is no memwipe.   Your groups will appreciate it (especially the mages) and if your a high end dps ranger, it will aso come in handy.  I had hoped they were changing it, because i'd like to use it more often as opposed to only on a few encounters.  Perhaps they will, as the problem could be fixed without breaking the intended use they had tested in beta.</P>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>My theory about the two day change is that something had to be done about alll those Hawk Dive Masters that have been stacking up on the broker.  Make the CA useful for a couple days, people buy up all the masters,  then change it back.  Simple enough. :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was seriously tongue-in-cheek.  I already had the master so I wasn't one of the unlucky folks who purchased it (goes for about 3 plat on Kithicor).  I use it occassionally, but for the most part, it's useless as it is.  I was really excited about the change.  Oh well, i've been kicked in the spleen harder than that.</DIV>

[Mronin]

My issue with this has been the same from the start. It's not that it was changed back to the way it is on live. It's that it was A: Changed to a useful skill and that change posted and commented on BY A DEV on the beta forums and B: Not just changed back without so much as A SINGLE WORD two days later, but made WORSE when they changed it back. As of yesterday before I logged off beta for the last time it had been put back in line with how it is on live right now. This I can live with because I've gotten good at being able to time short cast CA's between beak strikes. However the fact that not only was the spell AND the description of the spell changed on beta, then stealth nerfed then the description changed back to how it is now a DAY before EoF was scheduled to go live stinks of someone once again making changes because the PvP base complained.The upshot for me is this, it was nice to see a couple possibly good bones thrown our way with EoF and I am happy with some of the changes. However this situation only serves to lend credence to the conspiracy theories that SOE has it in for Rangers. Do I buy that theory? Not really. The problem is when things like this happen and there is ZERO response from anyone at SOE, it not only supports those who currently believe that theory. But it also makes it harder for people to not pause for a moment and say "hey what's really going on?".Just my 2cp and as for myself I'm gonna stop ranting about this because it's pointless at this juncture. Despite nearly begging devs on the beta server to give us at least some indication as to what happened, nothing has yet been posted or anything even resembling an explanation given.Edited to add the update note from beta as of November 7th. "- Ranger: Hawk Dive: Duration is now 20 seconds and increases through upgrades. While the hate siphoning effect is active, any stealth required abilities do not require the stealthing effect to use." Dev comment in the beta forums pointed us to this exact same sentence.<p>Message Edited by Mronin on <span class=date_text>11-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[jrisley69]

well, for me, if it's been changed back to the way it was, it doesn't really affect me.  I'll still play the way i did before, timing ca's and using it between big hits to lower aggro.  woulda been nice though.<div></div>

[Memran]

<P>Maybe its just me, but news of the nice hawk made me purchase EoF. I was undecided before that. And now... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The real gripe for me is the lack of communication from them. Is it really that hard to post a comment on this?</P> <P>If anything is going to make me leave eq2 (unlikely) it will be the non-existant communication, not any negative change they do.</P>

[Mronin]

<blockquote><hr>Memran wrote:<P>Maybe its just me, but news of the nice hawk made me purchase EoF. I was undecided before that. And now... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><P>The real gripe for me is the lack of communication from them. Is it really that hard to post a comment on this?</P><P>If anything is going to make me leave eq2 (unlikely) it will be the non-existant communication, not any negative change they do.</P><hr></blockquote>Exactly.

[Fromingo]

Well as someone who played PvP, and regularly fought against rangers, I can see how the bird negating the need for stealth is overpowered.   One of the breaks, on Rangers using their big stealth arrow shots, is that an aware opponent can knock them out of stealth and negate their attack.  This is needed because I have seen rangers take people down 60-100%, depending on HP's, in one stealthed shot.   However it seems like they can just remove that ability of the bird's when fighting PvP.   If that is such a hard fix then just make the bird have a 7-8 sec delay between pecks (increasing damage per peck so that it remains comparable) then reangers could stealth inbetween.  <P><SPAN class=time_text>Don't feel picked on about lack of communication.  It's happening to every class.  </SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Fromingo on <span class=date_text>11-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

[Gerdos]

<DIV>More communication would be nice from the developers/coders ... as to changes made, and perhaps why certain changes are made.   Although, in beta ... i can understand that many changes are brought in to test out stuff.   It's BETA .. so, i can understand if not all changes are announced/communicated.   Although i can live without all the changes being posted in beta (as in this case), but ... i cannot accept lack of communication to changes made on Live servers, which i do think happens too often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In this beta case, it was already stated by several rangers before they reverted Hawk Dive back to its original form, that it would be changed ... as the change made could be used as an unfair advantage to rangers on PvP servers.   Realisticly, perhaps even made it too easy to use even on PvE servers as rangers would simply learn to spam it whenever it was up without worrying about timings nor requiring any skill, helping themselves and everyone in group to +20 % less hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally think SOE should change this CA to make rangers want to use it more often then what we currently do.  However, they need to change it without it being used to give rangers an unfair advantage, (even if on PvP),  and not make it too overpowered that any ranger can just spam it gaining a great advantage without requiring any skill/control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lev]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fromingo wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div>Well as someone who played PvP, and regularly fought against rangers, I can see how the bird negating the need for stealth is overpowered.   One of the breaks, on Rangers using their big stealth arrow shots, is that an aware opponent can knock them out of stealth and negate their attack.  This is needed because I have seen rangers take people down 60-100%, depending on HP's, in one stealthed shot.   However it seems like they can just remove that ability of the bird's when fighting PvP.   If that is such a hard fix then just make the bird have a 7-8 sec delay between pecks (increasing damage per peck so that it remains comparable) then reangers could stealth inbetween.  <p><span class="time_text">Don't feel picked on about lack of communication.  It's happening to every class.  </span></p><p>Message Edited by Fromingo on <span class="date_text">11-14-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:11 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>  Well this is exactly oposite of my point earlier, however think abit more about it.. what you are saying is that a person that can look through stealth can break the attack, however if the ranger is not stealthed (even with the new change the bird was breaking stealth), you would not need to break his stealth to break his attack.. just move up close (which you could easily do seeing as he was casting and moving would break his cast), anyone would be able to see the ranger and could therefore just step up to him making his attack fail and him being beaten on.. So in actuallity I think you are debating your own point. The main reason these high damage sniper shots are so powerfull in PvP (as you just confirmed) is that the very long casting time happens in stealth and the ranger is only visible right before striking, to a class that can not see stealth (very few) or a player without see stealth totems this can be devastating. And using the hawk instead would remove that edge from those very attacks.. I really think a PvPer would not pull out the hawk until he was completely out of stealth attack, even then it might be bad cause he could not rely on stealth for an easy getaway.</div>

[Fromingo]

<P>In PvP it's a lot harder to close with someone before they get an attack off than it is just to nail them with a quick casting ranged spell/attack and ruin their stealth.   Rangers back off in PvP all the time and fire off a quick attack before you can close to melee again.  Only those classes that can root/stun or have much superior snares can eaily keep a ranger too close.  </P> <P>Also  I am also not just talking about the sniper shot but also all the other ranged CA's that require stealth.  If rangers can use all their CA's without needing stealth they will not only dominate 1 person (like they often do now with sniper) but probably a duo/trio as well.    That's just too much so I can totally see how the bird, negating need for stealth, is too powerful in PvP but something does need to be done for PvE rangers to make the bird even useful.    </P> <P>The longer delay between pecks seems the best solution.  Good timing would allow stealth strikes in PvE and PvP yet not make it a sure thing.  </P><p>Message Edited by Fromingo on <span class=date_text>11-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[Torrin]

We have 3 Ranged StealthsSniper Shot is an opening attack only.. and only works on people who are completely unaware the Ranger is there due to its longer casting time.Selection is an AE Stealth Shot that can be done while moving.. only one of 2 Ranged CAs that can.Veiled Fire is a Stealth Shot that does very nice damage, although considerably less than Sniper, and has a faster cast rate than Sniper.And 2 Melee StealthsRanger's Blade, high damage positional Melee stealth attack.. as all Melee CAs fast cast time, but again it's positional (Must be behind or Flanking)EmberFlame, Moderate damage Heat-Based Stealth Attack.. Fast cast time, Non-positional.  But Damage is Heat Based, so it's true damage capacity fluxuates compared to target's Resistances.The Only true Danger the Hawk would provide in PvP is the following Scenario:Ranger spots Target..  Ranger Prepares a Sniper Shot... Target spots Ranger and Breaks Ranger's Stealth.. Sniper Shot Auto-Canceled, further Stealth Attacks disabled (No Stealth)Target Starts closing GapRanger uses Leg Shot to SnareTarget Slowed by 62%Ranger Sends out Hawk Ranger prepares Veiled FireTarget Crawling toward RangerRanger Hits with Veiled FireHawk Still on TargetRanger Prepares SelectionTarget closing in on RangerRanger Moves away while casting Selection (Can Move and not break casting)Target unsnared, Running at RangerRanger hits with Selection((By now Target is at the very least at half health))Or another ScenarioRanger fighting TargetTarget gets Melee range on RangerRanger sends out HawkRanger Chain attacks: Emberflame > Cheap Shot > Ranger's Blade > Mortal Reminder > Arrow Rip > Lightning > Lunging Joust > EmberFlameRanger can then back off and use Devitalize or Triple Volley (Both high-damage, fast casting)All of that can be done before Hawk disappears ((Unless Target is smart and kills hawk since it goes down easily and quickly))So while the Hawk as it was would have been powerful.I think the real problem they had is there was no way to break a Smart Ranger's Stealth Attacks with the Hawk up..  if you're slowed, you can't close the gap in time to stop a Veiled Fire, especially when the Ranger doesn't have to stealth first.<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

Lockeye posted *here* in the Ranger EoF AA thread I made about Hawk Dive and brought all the beta tester's attention to it, not on the beta boards.<div></div>

[Mronin]

Ok I know I said I wasn't gonna say anything more about this. However I am going to say one last thing about this. While this is a small slight compared to what SOE has done in the past, it is one which has really gotten to me as this one is FAR more obvious than their normal BS. From todays update notes "Ranger: Hawk Dive: Hawk reduces hate with the target it strikes, greatly reducing the amount of hate that gets dumped on the ranger when it expires. Ranger: Hawk Dive: Duration is now 20 seconds and increases through upgrades." As compared to "- Ranger: Hawk Dive: Duration is now 20 seconds and increases through upgrades. While the hate siphoning effect is active, any stealth required abilities do not require the stealthing effect to use." So to SOE and the devs who refuse to comment or out right LIED, all I can say is bravo for once again lowering customer expectations that you might act with integrity when it comes to issues like this. I'm now officially done with this topic unless we can get some feedback from an actual dev (insert various other wildly plausible scenario here).

[Mronin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:Lockeye posted *here* in the Ranger EoF AA thread I made about Hawk Dive and brought all the beta tester's attention to it, not on the beta boards.<div></div><hr></blockquote> He did indeed Gwyneth, my apologies.... Unfortunately this whole thing has me chewing nails at times and as such I don't always have the best recall in the world <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.Edited for spelling cuz I'm still p***ed off about this whole deal.<p>Message Edited by Mronin on <span class=date_text>11-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 PM</span>

[TaleraRis]

No worries. Saw more than one person post that as kind of the reason that it was okay and wanted to clarify that it wasn't just a beta thing.<div></div>

[Tarryn]

<P>So, have we gotten any clarification on this yet?  Was it just a "oops, no treats for rangers!" deal, or was taking it back out a mistake?  Are the devs examining it further for possible re-implementation at a later time?</P> <P>I'm not at all happy with the silence about this.  If it was unbalancing, fine--<EM>tell</EM> us.  I'm more than a bit fed up with the mushroom treatment.</P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tarryn wrote:<div></div> <p>So, have we gotten any clarification on this yet?  Was it just a "oops, no treats for rangers!" deal, or was taking it back out a mistake?  Are the devs examining it further for possible re-implementation at a later time?</p> <p>I'm not at all happy with the silence about this.  If it was unbalancing, fine--<em>tell</em> us.  I'm more than a bit fed up with the mushroom treatment.</p><hr></blockquote>I agree. I can live with it either way, but dang it TELL US.Tell us it's working as intended. Let ua RANT and get on with it. Don't leave as hanging like this, it's rude.</div>

[nirav21]

<P>How in the world of everything do you guys know the changes to Ranger was due to pvp asspect?</P> <P>Because the stealthed attacks would not have made alot of difference in pvp.</P> <P>Since the cast times are way to long even with the snares they can disrupt it with spells, stuns, range attacks. Each class has one of those. </P> <P>And in PVE i mean is it really that bad that you dunt get the stealth thingy?</P> <P>Lets see how many stealth attacks we have? 2 mellee and 3 ranged?</P> <P>2 ranged recast = 1 min, 1 Ranged recast = 15 min (or 10)</P> <P>Surveil recast = 30 sec = 2 surviel for (vieled fire and selection)</P> <P>1 mellee recast = 20 sec, 1 melee recast = 1 min.</P> <P>Longshanks recast = 20 sec!!</P> <P>So once again you have lots of ways of getting into stealth and use all the attacks. </P> <P>The loss of hate they did fix on the hawk and it is rather nice for pvp and pve i would say. Imagine your enemy having touble targeting you for 20 sec...</P><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class=date_text>11-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 AM</span>

[jarlaxle8]

<P>Nah, the loss of the stealth for free thingy on the hawk probably isn't the main issue we have. The lack of comment from devs is what's upsetting most.<BR>Plus, I think most where not looking forward to the free stealth, but finally beeing to use stealth attacks when the hawk is out. If they just make it that the bird doesn't bugger up stealth, many would be happy.<BR>As for PvP beeing the scapegoat: PvP is the devil to some people, and for them it's the perfect devil to blame everything on. :smileywink:</P>

[Tarryn]

<P>I don't care that much if they make the hawk allow unstealthed stealth attacks like they told us.  It would be plenty if they would make it so I can *use* stealth while the hawk is out.  They do need to do <EM>something</EM> about the hawk's stealth issues.</P> <P>The main problem I have, though, is the lack of communication.  It's poor customer service, it's disrespectful, it's just plain rude.  There is no excuse for the devs to just completely ignore this.</P>

[DarkMirrax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Axor wrote:<BR> <P>its pretty sad that the class with less utility is not the most dps one as it should be.</P> <P> </P> <P>If we have no Utility get us back to tier 1 DPS without needing to get a uber fabled bow and another rare fabled bow for ammo.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>welcome to the current state of brigands amazing reflexes or as its know described  "it that procs once an hour for a 5 second wonder" .. sounds like most men imo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>soe continue to [Removed for Content] people off , hey i know lets make dive work as INTENDED and then think hmm no wait that will make rangers quite good again and we cant have that ... one day when nobody is left playing eq2 the devs with think .. hmmm why did everyone leave then .... well soe all you have to do is READ YOUR FKN EXIT QUESTIONARE !!!</P> <P> </P> <P>btw pls fix this lockeye and whilst your at it fix AR to pls .... do you guys just love giving the scouts the craptastic skills or what ?</P> <P> </P>

[Nulad]

Maybe they're not ignoring the issue but actually looking into it and still deciding what to do with it, while it would be nice for a Dev to do a run by 'we're looking into it' post I see little point in getting stressed over a lack of information after such a short amount of time.<div></div>

[Teka]

I got Improved Hawk Dive 1/5 on live and i cannot see any effect that i could cast without stealt. Do i need 5/5? i am a bit confused, tought beta meant eof beta...<div></div>

[Lev]

if you read this thread it has turned into one big complain thread about they removing that effect again, without giving us any comments on it. The duration and hate changes stay, but the stealth fix was removed.. someone probably thought it was overpowering..<div></div>

[Teka]

Sorry, i did not understand hihi, i am from germany. What a piety that they removed that nice effect <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[EQGu]

<DIV>well im really disappointed in SOE about taking this out.. here is why i think they did it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in beta it was working for a few days.. then like 2 days before release i noticed the desciption still said didnt require stealth or w/e.. but i couldnt fire stealth shots without stealth when hawk was up so i thought maybe its bugged..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i just think it was bugged they couldnt fix it before launch cuz they are SOE and it will take 3 months to fix something and just took it out until next live update when they can fix it.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this would have finally made the hawk useful but now it still Sux..</DIV>

[Fonrian]

I can't believe people went out at bought M1 hawk dive because of something that was changed on a beta server.  Things always change from beta, that's why beta servers exist.  Never base a decision on your regular server based off of an update from beta.  Sounds like people are learning this lesson the hard way. 

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fonrian wrote:<BR> I can't believe people went out at bought M1 hawk dive because of something that was changed on a beta server.  Things always change from beta, that's why beta servers exist.  Never base a decision on your regular server based off of an update from beta.  Sounds like people are learning this lesson the hard way. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Read the entire thread.  There was a dev post stating that it had already been changed. If you can't trust your developer, who can you trust? </P> <P>hmmmmmmmm    point taken</P>

[Fonrian]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prandtl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fonrian wrote:<BR> I can't believe people went out at bought M1 hawk dive because of something that was changed on a beta server.  Things always change from beta, that's why beta servers exist.  Never base a decision on your regular server based off of an update from beta.  Sounds like people are learning this lesson the hard way. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Read the entire thread.  There was a dev post stating that it had already been changed. If you can't trust your developer, who can you trust? </P> <P>hmmmmmmmm    point taken</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>I read the entire thread.  The only Dev post I saw said:</P> <P>"-Ranger: Hawk Dive: Hawk reduces hate with the target it strikes, greatly reducing the amount of hate that gets dumped on the ranger when it expires. "</P> <P> </P> <P>Am I wrong that these were beta test notes anyway?  Not game update notes on live servers.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  And on a sidenote, don't place trust in Game Developers.  Or GM's.  That's just sillyness, you don't know them.  </P>