Massive changes underway, your thoughts?

[LoreLady]

<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194</a>I am leaving my own opinions and comments off, and see what goes on in EoF before I make any comments about either rangers, or these changes.. I will say however.. I am looking forward to these changes and they will help out ALOT of classes.I will be honset though, my account expires at oct 16th.. I will get the expansion when I see steps in the right direction like this, rather than my old plan wich was just letting it dry up.I'll be honest though, im glad I dont work at sony right now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - and I think college is tough <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> CRUNCH TIME GUYS! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TerriBlades]

Im always leery of any type of change that SoE is planning on. That being said, I will say that while I like the idea as a whole, I just hope they implement it properly. It'll be nice to finally get rewarded for being over the stat caps.. although... I guess after the changes take hold, I wont be over the cap anymore. BAH! I can only hope that the new armor pieces + set bonuses will allow us to actually get near the new cap.

[Jayad]

<P>Mostly... It won't mean anything.  Unless the expansion has more bows with high DRs.</P> <P>Aren't we glad we self-buff AGI? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Now it's going to be extra-superlicious-stupifying-lame useless.</P>

[Blarth]

I hope that the stat changes, while on a curve, will increase how much damage we do. By setting up mitigation the way they are I tink it gives us a better ability to take a hit, especially those with raid gear. From what i understand it seems this way but it still seems kinda confusing to me. <div></div>

[xandez]

well imo, this will close the cap between eg. leather and plate tanks, since the lower mitigation numbers will mean more than largeSo, the rangers who have small miti numbers and raise them will get more benefits as the fellows who already have larger numbers (eg. fabled chain armour)?Gah, doesnt matter... we will eventually see how this affects us anyway <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan<div></div>

[Asismii]

i like it <div></div>

[Saihung23]

<P>Interesting changes, glad to see they are taling about them beforehand.</P> <P> </P> <P>I like the dps and haste increase to 200%</P> <P>I guess we will see how it goes.</P>

[Teksun]

I look at it like thei: Casters don't get one shot killed anymore, neither do we <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I do like the 200%haste cap, but does that include range autofire?It does seem leather will be just as good as chain now... <div></div>

[Spite]

<DIV>As i see it this will most likely put rangers even farther at a disadvantage in the ranged stat. Since few items or classes (are there any?) classes buff the ranged skill, how do you actually plan on elevating the skill to be in line with other classes? Remember skills that are at the current max value and for some yet unspecified number after that will actually be take a nerf. With the amount of items with pluses for other skills out there this could easily cause a ranger to fall even farther behind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It does mean the +ranged on our Killing Instinct and Focus Aim short term buffs will be meaningful. What good was buffing ranged by about 120 (from FA) if self buffed a ranger sits at 392 ranged all the time?</DIV>

[AChampi]

<blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:I do like the 200%haste cap, but does that include range autofire?<hr></blockquote>What was actually said was:<blockquote><hr>Attackspeed/DPSAttack speed and DPS caps have increased to 200%Uses a diminishing returns curve to determine the actual amount of attackspeed and DPS modification, which caps out at 125% actual modification when reaching the cap<hr></blockquote>So if you are at 100% dps/haste today you will likely have less effective dps/haste after these changes. I would imagine it will follow a similar rule as the other stats and 40% of the new cap (200 * 0.4 = 80) will be the point at which haste will be equivalent between the models. After which more haste will have a dimishing return but the potential maximum of 125% (actual haste) at 200. It will also mean that 40 haste in the new model will be greater that 40% actual haste.If you notice I have dropped the % on the new numbers as it is meaningless - I hope SOE does the same.<blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:It does seem leather will be just as good as chain now...<hr></blockquote>No...There is always an improvement for every mit point you get.The relative benefit is reduced as you get higher but chain doesn't get close to the mitigation limits so will still have a big benefit.Just a reference, fully decked out in all my mit I hit around 3500. So will be better off solo in the new system (the break even point is 4000 mitigation), and will be slightly worse off when raid buffed.The idea of worse off is all relative - if the mobs (especially raid) are changed with these new mechanics then this comparison is meaningless and we will just have to wait and see what the mobs are like.Your resident Wanderer -Slic.<p>Message Edited by AChampion on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[Gareorn]

<P>Bah!  My relic sleeves are about to become worthless.</P> <P>Edit:  For those of us who went with the AGI/INT AA line, a respec might be in order.  All of a sudden, the AGI/STR line seems to be getting a little boost from these changes. :smileyhappy:</P> <P>It'll be interesting to test the differences with the stat changes.</P><p>Message Edited by Gareorn on <span class=date_text>09-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 AM</span>

[Rahmn]

Looking at just the haste being effectivly increased to 125%, I would see this futher favoring weapons with very long delays since they still didnt say anything about allowing weapons to be faster than 1sec delay.  But the fact that you actually have to double the amount of haste to get to that 125% sucks.  On the other hand with our focus aim and killing instinct we still should be able to hit very close to that 200% with standard raid buffs.  Now looking at the stat cap issue:  If Skill A did 1000 damage at the old cap of 520, will it now do 500 damage since the stat cap is doubled?  I dunno.

[Jay]

<P>My first thought is something like "Hmm.. 'a lot' is two words, isn't it?" <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>My second thought is "Ummm... big changes incoming...duck and cover."</P> <P>In theory, they will help the overall balance of the game, but we've all seen how far the implementation can diverge from the theory. Like many vets, I just can't help getting a little nervous when the Devs start making significant changes to mechanics. </P>

[Crychtonn]

<P>First thoughts are I pray they are planning on making changes to how some buffs work.  If not the gap I finally overcame with getting the Sarnac bow just jumped right back in my face.  Because of buffs like Agitate that only work on melee attacks and assassins already having a superior self buff rangers are going to fall behind again.  They will be able to hit these new higher caps alot easier.  Hell all they need is an Illusionist and a Fury and they are over it.</P> <P>Even if by a stroke of luck I pulled the Coercer out of the MT group and got DPS buffed and had a Inquistor for additional DPS buff I'd be sitting at 104% DPS and 66% Haste with Haste popping up to 116% when the Inquisitor didn't have to heal and could use his haste buff that mutes him.  Even this won't put me close the the DPS / Haste that an assassin would be at with an Illusionist and Fury.  And lets not forget it's ten times easier to get setup with an Illusionsit then pulling a Coercer out of the MT group.</P> <P>Change Agitate to proc off ranged attacks and make Impetus castable cross raid and I might keep up.  Otherwise all I see these changes doing is kicking my poor ranger back to the curb of a wannabe DPS class.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[LoreLady]

Haste currently works this way, 100% haste, 200% dps = 100% increase, 200 dps dps increase, 200 haste increase doesnt come to a 125% increase, it comes to a 250% total increase...They stated the actuall value of 200% haste increase will realisticlly be 125% increase instead of a 50%.. The way the other caps are set (looking at mitigation primarly) its a 150% actuall cap, instead of the 80%.. A 125% actual cap instead of the 50% actuall diffrence would scale with mitigation as well as dps.

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> Looking at just the haste being effectivly increased to 125%, I<FONT color=#ffff00> would see this futher favoring weapons with very long delays since they still didnt say anything about allowing weapons to be faster than 1sec delay</FONT>.  But the fact that you actually have to double the amount of haste to get to that 125% sucks.  On the other hand with our focus aim and killing instinct we still should be able to hit very close to that 200% with standard raid buffs.  Now looking at the stat cap issue:  If Skill A did 1000 damage at the old cap of 520, will it now do 500 damage since the stat cap is doubled?  I dunno.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You seem to be under the (common) misconception that weapon attack speed caps at 1 second.  It does not.<BR>

[LoreLady]

I can see there being problems with attack speeds when this thing comes out now that I think about it... Currently the lowest attack speed you can get is 0.6s with 100% haste, with 200% haste your looking at 0.3s.. With the natural lag of the internet it might start to cause lapses etc.. I dunno, I am probabbly just talking junk...Friday afternoon and im bored out of my mind.. Yea, my life is exciting! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mescali]

I'm not really worried about how it will affect rangers beyond giving us more room to grow.  I'm sure EoF itemization will be created with the new cap system in mind, so I wouldn't run away from the falling sky yet.  I also have a feeling many buffs will be modifed based on the new cap system.The biggest effect this will have, IMO, is make avoidance tanks more viable on raids, and keep the DPS from getting destroyed on AOEs or if they pull agro.  Which is a good thing as far as my gameplay is concerned. <div></div>

[Rahmn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> Looking at just the haste being effectivly increased to 125%, I<FONT color=#ffff00> would see this futher favoring weapons with very long delays since they still didnt say anything about allowing weapons to be faster than 1sec delay</FONT>.  But the fact that you actually have to double the amount of haste to get to that 125% sucks.  On the other hand with our focus aim and killing instinct we still should be able to hit very close to that 200% with standard raid buffs.  Now looking at the stat cap issue:  If Skill A did 1000 damage at the old cap of 520, will it now do 500 damage since the stat cap is doubled?  I dunno.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You seem to be under the (common) misconception that weapon attack speed caps at 1 second.  It does not.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well where does it cap?

[Katsugen]

<P>hmm combat changes are scary. I do not share this dev's confidence that things will go smoothly. These are huge changes. I foresee many classes getting all sorts of outta whack. I actually think rangers will likely benefit from this system but there are gonna be some classes this hurts. I am not looking forward to another 6months of SOE trying to fix a self inflicted unbalance. I say buy stock in Hasbro now, cuz when everything starts to run amuck SOE will be buying bats</P> <P>-Katsugen</P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>I can see there being problems with attack speeds when this thing comes out now that I think about it... Currently the lowest attack speed you can get is 0.6s with 100% haste, with 200% haste your looking at 0.3s.. With the natural lag of the internet it might start to cause lapses etc.. I dunno, I am probabbly just talking junk...<BR><BR>Friday afternoon and im bored out of my mind.. Yea, my life is exciting! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>seems to me at the new cap 8s delay bows and 6s delay bows will be ideal</P> <P>1.5s @125% with 6s base delay and 2s @ 125% with 8s base delay.</P> <P>are there even 6s delay long bows?  and isn't sarnak bow 8s delay? or is it 8.5?</P>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> Looking at just the haste being effectivly increased to 125%, I<FONT color=#ffff00> would see this futher favoring weapons with very long delays since they still didnt say anything about allowing weapons to be faster than 1sec delay</FONT>.  But the fact that you actually have to double the amount of haste to get to that 125% sucks.  On the other hand with our focus aim and killing instinct we still should be able to hit very close to that 200% with standard raid buffs.  Now looking at the stat cap issue:  If Skill A did 1000 damage at the old cap of 520, will it now do 500 damage since the stat cap is doubled?  I dunno.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You seem to be under the (common) misconception that weapon attack speed caps at 1 second.  It does not.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well where does it cap?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It doesn't cap.</P> <P>There is no minimum delay on melee weapons or ranged weapons.  Not 1.0 sec.  Not 0.8 sec.  Not 0.6 sec.  There is no minimum.<BR></P>

[TaleraRis]

My only thought is "Aiee!" but I'm just leery of changes in general now.<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> Looking at just the haste being effectivly increased to 125%, I<FONT color=#ffff00> would see this futher favoring weapons with very long delays since they still didnt say anything about allowing weapons to be faster than 1sec delay</FONT>.  But the fact that you actually have to double the amount of haste to get to that 125% sucks.  On the other hand with our focus aim and killing instinct we still should be able to hit very close to that 200% with standard raid buffs.  Now looking at the stat cap issue:  If Skill A did 1000 damage at the old cap of 520, will it now do 500 damage since the stat cap is doubled?  I dunno.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You seem to be under the (common) misconception that weapon attack speed caps at 1 second.  It does not.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well where does it cap?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It doesn't cap.</P> <P>There is no minimum delay on melee weapons or ranged weapons.  Not 1.0 sec.  Not 0.8 sec.  Not 0.6 sec.  There is no minimum.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you sure about that? I hate to make it sound like im asking for proof of this... but I guess thats just what I want. Where did you see that there isnt a min delay?</DIV>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> Looking at just the haste being effectivly increased to 125%, I<FONT color=#ffff00> would see this futher favoring weapons with very long delays since they still didnt say anything about allowing weapons to be faster than 1sec delay</FONT>.  But the fact that you actually have to double the amount of haste to get to that 125% sucks.  On the other hand with our focus aim and killing instinct we still should be able to hit very close to that 200% with standard raid buffs.  Now looking at the stat cap issue:  If Skill A did 1000 damage at the old cap of 520, will it now do 500 damage since the stat cap is doubled?  I dunno.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You seem to be under the (common) misconception that weapon attack speed caps at 1 second.  It does not.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well where does it cap?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It doesn't cap.</P> <P>There is no minimum delay on melee weapons or ranged weapons.  Not 1.0 sec.  Not 0.8 sec.  Not 0.6 sec.  There is no minimum.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you sure about that? I hate to make it sound like im asking for proof of this... but I guess thats just what I want. Where did you see that there isnt a min delay?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well, you know that I <EM>could</EM> simply reply "Where did you see that there <STRONG><EM>was</EM></STRONG> a min delay."</P> <P>I could also simply say that my personal testing showed me a long time ago that there was no minimum delay and for me that's better than all of the bogus "common knowledge" that floats around as though it was fact.</P> <P>Or, I suppose that I can just give a link.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=100167&query.id=0#M100167" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=100167&query.id=0#M100167</A></P> <P> </P>

[Ranvarenaya]

Here's what worries me about this:Regardless of how much STR we get from gear, buffs, etc, an equally geared brigand will always have 130 more.  Having us both capped as we are now allows us to stay with them.  In the new system my understanding will likely be more difficult (if at all possible) for us to cap STR, and brigands will get a damage increase for that 130 str that is currently over the cap and not doing anything.  The simple math says that unless something major changes aside from itemization (such as a blanket CA boost, brig nerf, or a trade of stat buffs, etc.), it is very likely that we (as well as assassins for the same reason) will be left in the dust.  I'm optimistic that this will be examined in beta to make sure class balance doesn't go completely awry.<div></div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR>Here's what worries me about this:<BR><BR>Regardless of how much STR we get from gear, buffs, etc, an equally geared brigand will always have 130 more.  Having us both capped as we are now allows us to stay with them.  In the new system my understanding will likely be more difficult (if at all possible) for us to cap STR, and brigands will get a damage increase for that 130 str that is currently over the cap and not doing anything.  The simple math says that unless something major changes aside from itemization (such as a blanket CA boost, brig nerf, or a trade of stat buffs, etc.), it is very likely that we (as well as assassins for the same reason) will be left in the dust.  I'm optimistic that this will be examined in beta to make sure class balance doesn't go completely awry.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Except that beyond a certain point, the brigand's extra 130 strength will have a progressively decreasing effect on damage output.</P> <P>Also, I would expect that the stats on EoF gear will be scaled to take into consideration the higher stat caps.  In other words, as an example I would expect to see fabled gear with at least 40-50 strength.  SoE might even adjust stats on existing gear as well.</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR>Here's what worries me about this:<BR><BR>Regardless of how much STR we get from gear, buffs, etc, an equally geared brigand will always have 130 more.  Having us both capped as we are now allows us to stay with them.  In the new system my understanding will likely be more difficult (if at all possible) for us to cap STR, and brigands will get a damage increase for that 130 str that is currently over the cap and not doing anything.  The simple math says that unless something major changes aside from itemization (such as a blanket CA boost, brig nerf, or a trade of stat buffs, etc.), it is very likely that we (as well as assassins for the same reason) will be left in the dust.  I'm optimistic that this will be examined in beta to make sure class balance doesn't go completely awry.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Except that beyond a certain point, the brigand's extra 130 strength will have a progressively decreasing effect on damage output.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Also, I would expect that the stats on EoF gear will be scaled to take into consideration the higher stat cap</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>s</FONT>.  In other words, as an example I would expect to see fabled gear with at least 40-50 strength.  SoE might even adjust stats on existing gear as well.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was going to say this very thing. And before I forget, thanks for the link <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR>

[athitchcock]

Every expansion so far has had a major combat revamp, why should this one be any different. We are rangers, by now we should know that each expansion means relearning how to play our class. Some will complain, some will applaud, after a few months the dust will settle and we will know where we are. We are a pendulum class, I'm just hoping that these changes swing us back toward the middle.Gnaril<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div>This is just a thought, but as it is - preds have the highest to hit %age rating in the game currently, and they are boosting the attack skill, the base skills (slash/pierce/ranged), along with str...So, does this mean that things are going to be a 50/50 auto attack vs CA's? This thought kinda scares me because its taking a step back into EQ1, however.. With this expansion comming out, and eventually they are going to put a usefullness for crafted arrows (or simply putting a heritage that summons t8 ammo) it may yet outballance the CA diffrence between mark, and the 20/30% CA diffrence there already is between rangers/assassins.. The only  problem I see again, is any friggen brigand or swash doing 1.5x our damage because of thier double attack.. If double attack boosts there top dps to 1k as it is with 100% haste/dps for the topend rouge.. This is going to turn into 1785 dps for the common brigand in auto attack alone. While assassins and rangers are still doing 1050 max DPS (without t8 ammo)(<u>auto attack DPS not total DPS)</u>Also, thinking about this some more.. Changing the way int values work, and increasing a wizards chance to hit on a mob.. This will make things for wizards MUCH easier and will allow for wizards to start outdamaging summoners with ease.    Currently summoners at 510 only do a small portion of damage themselves "compared" to thier pet.  While summoners will continue to do less dps while the stats go up, wizards inturn should be seeing ALOT more.. The only problem I still see with wizards, is the ability to cap that 1070 with ease and still running to the exact same problem they had before.. Lets face it, most wizards have there int at 600ish naturally by now, and getting that up acouple hundred points is going to be easy still..All in all, my general thoughts is that rouges are goin to get some pretty big nerfing to there double attack ability if there is going to be any ballance between the rouge/sorc/pred/summoner.<u>I am not calling out nerfs for other classes, or suggesting that these things "are" going to happen.. It is just my speculation on the subject and my thoughts on how these changes will effect DPS classes. <b>Dont send me annoying PM's about how im a nerfcaller yada yada.</b></u></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>09-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:05 AM</span>

[Serventof Wrath]

<P>At first look the raise of stat caps sound good.  On raids I am always above the current 510 in usually 3 categories and really close in 1 more.  By raising the cap it will actually make those numbers mean something.  However i didn't see where the devs post of combat changes  mentions looking at all those skills that raise skills and stats by a % so that they are more useful in the new stat cap system.  Also again they are making big changes to the combat system and not changing how certain buffs and procs only work off melee and not ranged attacks.  </P> <P>I guess while it looks good on the surface there seems to be a lot more they could/should do before it goes live and hopefully with EoF we will see some of it.</P>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>LoreLady wrote:</P> <P>All in all, my general thoughts is that rogues are goin to get some pretty big nerfing to there double attack ability if there is going to be any ballance between the rouge/sorc/pred/summoner.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why would rogues need to suffer from any sort of nerfing? The 1K-1.5K they put out is still lower then what most Assassins, Wizards and Warlocks can do. The only real problem with the classes listed in your post would be Rangers, and the Summoners. Summoners can easily hit T1 DPS fairly consistently, while most Rangers are struggling to be near the top of T2 DPS.</P> <P>I'd say that my biggest fear with the changes is that its just gonig to widen the gap between Rangers and Assassins at max haste. I could be wrong on the numbers, but if someone is DWing weapons with 1.2 delays, wouldnt that put them about 0.3sec delay? or roughly 6 swings per second? Factor in a few procs, and the gap is going to be huge. I donno, but I hope Im wrong somewheres.</P>

[Sapperlight]

<P>My gut feeling is that the changes will only accentuate the gap between assassins, mages, and us.  The assassin (and rogue, for that matter) issues have been discussed above, but seeing that mages will now suffer fewer one shot deaths, they will in theory be able to focus even less on agro management and attempt to increase their dps even more (if that's possible).  The same can be said of us; however, I find that I don't get nearly as many one shot deaths as the mages I raid with, so it will be a matter of scale.</P> <P>On the upside, more attention will need to be made to group composition since buffs over the cap are now beneficial.</P>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>TerriBlades wrote:</P> <P><BR>Why would rogues need to suffer from any sort of nerfing? The 1K-1.5K they put out is still lower then what most Assassins, Wizards and Warlocks can do. The only real problem with the classes listed in your post would be Rangers, and the Summoners. Summoners can easily hit T1 DPS fairly consistently, while most Rangers are struggling to be near the top of T2 DPS.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thankyou *hug*<BR>

[Ethyarion]

I'm wary of these changes. Like others I fear it will only widen the disparity that we already witness.Ulitmately it remains to be seen what the Ranger class gets from EoF in the way of any CA upgrades (possibly the ancient teachings), Class specific AA and any other retuning that may hopefully return us to where we need to be.My confidence in SoE and their inclination and competence to do this however remains somewhat low.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>LoreLady wrote:</p> <p>All in all, my general thoughts is that rogues are goin to get some pretty big nerfing to there double attack ability if there is going to be any ballance between the rouge/sorc/pred/summoner.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Why would rogues need to suffer from any sort of nerfing? The 1K-1.5K they put out is still lower then what most Assassins, Wizards and Warlocks can do. The only real problem with the classes listed in your post would be Rangers, and the Summoners. Summoners can easily hit T1 DPS fairly consistently, while most Rangers are struggling to be near the top of T2 DPS.</p> <p>I'd say that my biggest fear with the changes is that its just gonig to widen the gap between Rangers and Assassins at max haste. I could be wrong on the numbers, but if someone is DWing weapons with 1.2 delays, wouldnt that put them about 0.3sec delay? or roughly 6 swings per second? Factor in a few procs, and the gap is going to be huge. I donno, but I hope Im wrong somewheres.</p><hr></blockquote>Again this is all speculation - do not take anything I say in fact..Summoners are split two ways, and the damage the pet does will not increase by much.. The pet will be able to resist more, and not be as likely to get oneshotted.. The owner - his damage will increase by two fold, but since the pet tends to currently be 2/3's of the summoners total dps.. This will make a 1/4 total increase in damage for the pet/summoner togetherRouges on the other hand are a diffrent story..They maintain 1.5k dps through aa's - primarly being auto attack. The way auto attack is going to work - the cap in wich dps/haste is calculated is going to be more than double.. (250% total actuall) - the amount of damage the weapon will be able to do (base) is going to increase from 1 per level to 1.5 per level.. While rangers will see these benifits - double this for rouges/guardians/bezerkers and then  ask yourself - where is the dps going to be in these classes? and where are the dps going to be for rangers?As for rangers/assassins go.. I really dont know how this is going to be put into play - its going to be alot easier for an assassin to use his/her mark, as it is going to be to be able for a ranger to use his/her offensive proc.. Again - its just the way I see this, all these statements are in opinion.. I have no real reference to perdictions, the only thing I can really do is wait and see.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194</a>I am leaving my own opinions and comments off, and see what goes on in EoF before I make any comments about either rangers, or these changes.. I will say however.. I am looking forward to these changes and they will help out ALOT of classes.I will be honset though, my account expires at oct 16th.. I will get the expansion when I see steps in the right direction like this, rather than my old plan wich was just letting it dry up.I'll be honest though, im glad I dont work at sony right now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - and I think college is tough <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> CRUNCH TIME GUYS! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I'm gonna wait till you've had time to crunch the numbers and min/max it for me and tell me the real story.</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=11194#M11194</a>I am leaving my own opinions and comments off, and see what goes on in EoF before I make any comments about either rangers, or these changes.. I will say however.. I am looking forward to these changes and they will help out ALOT of classes.I will be honset though, my account expires at oct 16th.. I will get the expansion when I see steps in the right direction like this, rather than my old plan wich was just letting it dry up.I'll be honest though, im glad I dont work at sony right now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - and I think college is tough <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> CRUNCH TIME GUYS! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I'm gonna wait till you've had time to crunch the numbers and min/max it for me and tell me the real story.</div><hr></blockquote>How about this, I will crunch the numbers on here for you.. If you get all my calculus, physics, elec theroy, math done for me? But I want all these done first, and then taught a clear understanding in all of them <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<DIV>I'm just not going to speculate, and roll with the punches when they hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just as I always have.</DIV>

[TwistedFaith]

I dont see much in the way of helping rangers specifically out in there honestly.I hope our AA lines are significant enough to make up for what I see as a growing inbalance between rogues and assasins over the ranger class.Of course a ranger can put out some t1 dps, but in my opinion the ranger class should not be balanced around a ranger with a 110 dmg rating bow and using those summoned tier 8 arrows.As for the haste/dps stat increase, dps modifiers are VERY difficult to find. Assasins are in the lucky position where they are already at something like 60% dps mod so they dont have to worry over this fact so much.

[Zholain]

<div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">valleyboy1 wrote:but in my opinion the ranger class should not be balanced around a ranger with a 110 dmg rating bow and using those summoned tier 8 arrows.</font></blockquote>         <hr size="2" width="100%"><font size="2">As obvious as that statement is, too many people seem to ignore it.  'Balancing' for any class should not be done around equipment from what is basically a non-existent tier.</font></div>

[Jay]

<P>^^ Agreed.</P> <P>And ditto Gwyn's "Aiee!" and Skaer's comment about rolling with the punches. Some people enjoy speculating and guessing at the impact of changes like these, but I'm no good at that - just not wired that way. I have to experience this first hand before I'll really understand how it affects me. </P>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>It's more fun to read a post about how the proposed changes are going to break us followed by a screen shot of them cancelling their account.</DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV>I'm really nervous about these changes.   Sony rarely gets things right the first time through.  And I'm not sure that I'll be willing to wait the 6 months or so for them to fix things broken by these changes.</DIV>

[brandi7920]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>^^ Agreed.</P> <P>And ditto Gwyn's "Aiee!" and Skaer's comment about rolling with the punches. Some people enjoy speculating and guessing at the impact of changes like these, but I'm no good at that - just not wired that way. I have to experience this first hand before I'll really understand how it affects me. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Verrry much in agreement. Just gonna have to wait and see how it goes.... :smileytongue:

[LoreLady]

Bah to that, lazy slobs! Its much more fun to look at all the angles to see how things are going to be before it even hits.. And then see if your even right <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TerriBlades]

<P>^^^^</P> <P>HAHA thats so true.</P>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>Rouges on the other hand are a diffrent story..They maintain 1.5k dps through aa's - primarly being auto attack. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which Rogues are you talking about?... The Rogues in your guild don't maintain 1.5k dps, because I've seen the parses you've posted. If I recall correctly (and I could well be in error, genuinely correct me if I'm wrong), nobody in parses I've seen you post maintains 1.5k dps, Rogues or otherwise. What Rogues are we talking about that maintain 1.5k dps? I've read about Rogues that do this but I've not seen it myself. I know of one Rogue when called to substantiate it with logs was found to fall well short of it.</P> <P>I find it interesting the process by which it becomes recieved wisdom that Rogues maintain 1.5kdps. I don't doubt that there's aren't Rogues out there doing it, but all to often we start throwing around crazy figures as some sort of norm that many of us have never seen happen, nor have even seen actual logs of it happening, as if it's some sort of norm. And then it gets argued as the maintained norm... it's not. It's far from it.</P> <P>You really can't rely on what you see others quoting as either their or their guildies dps on forums. People are way too apt to quote the max spike dps they've observed as some sort of baseline.<BR></P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote: <div>Rouges on the other hand are a diffrent story..They maintain 1.5k dps through aa's - primarly being auto attack. </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Which Rogues are you talking about?... The Rogues in your guild don't maintain 1.5k dps, because I've seen the parses you've posted. If I recall correctly (and I could well be in error, genuinely correct me if I'm wrong), nobody in parses I've seen you post maintains 1.5k dps, Rogues or otherwise. What Rogues are we talking about that maintain 1.5k dps? I've read about Rogues that do this but I've not seen it myself. I know of one Rogue when called to substantiate it with logs was found to fall well short of it.</p> <p>I find it interesting the process by which it becomes recieved wisdom that Rogues maintain 1.5kdps. I don't doubt that there's aren't Rogues out there doing it, but all to often we start throwing around crazy figures as some sort of norm that many of us have never seen happen, nor have even seen actual logs of it happening, as if it's some sort of norm. And then it gets argued as the maintained norm... it's not. It's far from it.</p> <p>You really can't rely on what you see others quoting as either their or their guildies dps on forums. People are way too apt to quote the max spike dps they've observed as some sort of baseline.</p><hr></blockquote>I tend to talk about top end, my own guild no, however I have a habbit of collecting parses of various guilds out there.. And seeing whos doing what.. The rouges in my own guild have DW's - and seem to like the tanking line, and just break 1.1k dps..I also have parsings of a simple rouge with a velium rapier being able to maintain 1.4k dps and being extreemly poorly geared, I also have parsings of highend rouges holding 1.5k, and being able to maintain that..</div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which Rogues are you talking about?... The Rogues in your guild don't maintain 1.5k dps, because I've seen the parses you've posted. If I recall correctly (and I could well be in error, genuinely correct me if I'm wrong), nobody in parses I've seen you post maintains 1.5k dps, Rogues or otherwise. What Rogues are we talking about that maintain 1.5k dps? I've read about Rogues that do this but I've not seen it myself. I know of one Rogue when called to substantiate it with logs was found to fall well short of it.</P> <P>I find it interesting the process by which it becomes recieved wisdom that Rogues maintain 1.5kdps. I don't doubt that there's aren't Rogues out there doing it, but all to often we start throwing around crazy figures as some sort of norm that many of us have never seen happen, nor have even seen actual logs of it happening, as if it's some sort of norm. And then it gets argued as the maintained norm... it's not. It's far from it.</P> <P>You really can't rely on what you see others quoting as either their or their guildies dps on forums. People are way too apt to quote the max spike dps they've observed as some sort of baseline.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know this wasnt directed at me, but I have seen plenty of well geared, well played brigands posting 1.3-1.5K. And not to be out done, my very own brigand in legenday gear (w00t just got MoA) can post 1.1-1.3K.<BR></P> <P>Edit: I forgot to mention that my brigand isnt even at 50 AA yet. I think 47 at the moment.</P><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class=date_text>10-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 PM</span>

[Mronin]

Thank you for being one of those who not only understands but voices this concept. It's posts like yours that bring a sense of sanity and logic to this forum."Every expansion so far has had a major combat revamp, why should this one be any different. We are rangers, by now we should know that each expansion means relearning how to play our class. Some will complain, some will applaud, after a few months the dust will settle and we will know where we are.We are a pendulum class, I'm just hoping that these changes swing us back toward the middle.Gnaril"<p>Message Edited by Mronin on <span class=date_text>10-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>