AA poisen...worth it?

[Tobann]

Hi all I just got my 41 AA point last night and I want to know peoples feelings on what they have found most usefull. I have gone down the Agi line and the Int line. I wonder if the final AA in Int ,the poisen,is worth the points. Does it stack in addition to Caustic or do you have to use one or the other? Is it better to go back and increase other AA to adept 3 status, ie the increased crit chance in the Agi line?I dont raid but mainly solo and small group if anyone thinks it makes a difference.Thanks Buaf 70 Ranger Befalen<div></div>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2">This is purely my opinion, so please take it as just that.  But at one point, I had gone the length of the AGI tree and down to the final ability on the STR tree, with the one remaining point going to the ranged crit bonus in the AGI line.  This was a great setup for solo / groups, as my strength was capped and the reduced timer/added damage on Rain and Sniper came in handy.However, about a month ago I respec'd and left the AGI tree unchanged, and moved all the points in the STR tree over to the INT line.  It did wonders for my raid dps, but hurt my group and solo effectiveness. I believe that STR / AGI is a much better solo / group setup, and AGI / INT is the better raid setup.BTW...The final ability in the INT line does indeed stack with your normal poisons.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:38 AM</span>

[Rinio]

<P>Number one it isn't all about the parse and anyone that tells you it is, is wrong.</P> <P>It all depends on your gear and play style. My main damage from my play style is rain of arrows its hard hitting relatively fast cast with poise and hits harder with perfectionist which is why I roll 4/4/4/4/8 STR and 4/4/4/5/8 AGI using the sweet spot play style to get off all Melee CAs and auto attacking with Ranged only.</P> <P>With that style i stay on par with our best assassin fine. For example on three princes yesterday he has 1000ish dps and i only had 800ish the difference in actual damage done was only about 50k damage which i could of easily done if i was allowed to AE but for whatever reason they like to keep the adds mezed</P> <P>The INT line would be beneficial yes, but only if that's your play style and you have a decent amount of Int gear to match it.</P> <P>ya here comes the OMG 1000 is not good  dps ya w/e Number 1 parsers are different if you parse using DPS / damage vs EXT DPS / damage the numbers are far different. Number 2)  Huh, imagine that we kill 3 princes first pull without having 30,000 raid dps OMG [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]! /shrug</P> <P>really thou parsers are different not everyone parses using ext DPS. I've been in Halls of seeing with 2 people parsing 1 parser says i did 1000dps while the other says 1600 yet they are the same ammount of damage dealt.... imagine that.</P> <P>btw Grizzfazzle ftw  <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=295736117" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=295736117</A>  still no fabled bows =(</P><p>Message Edited by RinionX on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:10 PM</span>

[Rahmn]

<DIV>I would take the increased ranged crit chance, the last INT AP is not worth it in my opinion.</DIV>

[Tobann]

Sounds like you agree with Zho that Str/Agi is the best for solo/small group. I hate to lose the extra poisen crit from the int line, but I understand what your saying.Buaf<div></div>

[Rahmn]

You missunderstood me I think.  The LAST int skill is unworthy in my opinion, however the max poison crits and max ranged crits is the best combo imho.  edit If you're soloing switch to caustic poisons for quicker damage.<p>Message Edited by Rahmn on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<DIV>Since you state you mainly solo and do small groups I'd suggest Str/Agi  over  Int/Agi.  The extra +parry skill you get on the Str line along with the melee crits will benefit you the most since you will be face to face with mob.  Avoiding the debate on which is better on raids since you don't look to be raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Crychtonn on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:19 PM</span>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<DIV>So if u go agi/int line is it better to use caustic or the hemotoxin?</DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>I was thinking of:</P> <P>AGI:  4/4/4/8/8  STR:  4/4/4/8  With 1 point left over.</P> <P>Is "Perfectionist" used that often?  How many CA's do we have that have a 2 minute or greater reuse timer?  And how much does it reduce the reuse timer and add to the damage?</P> <P>Would getting the extra 4 ranks in "Ranged Expertise" and "Precision of Blades" be better?</P> <P></P><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[Jay]

<P>Perfectionist shortens the recast timers on two CAs, Rain of Arrows and Sniper's Shot. </P> <P>Ranged crits are probably always a good thing; melee crits...maybe. Depends how much time you spend melee'ing. </P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<P>I have STR 4/4/4/4/8 and AGI 4/4/4/5/8.  I raid and on non raid days I'm doing loot and glory runs through T7 instances.  Having Rain and Sniper on shorter recast and a bonus to their damage has been awesome for me.  Rain provides a large amount of my overall damage and having it alomst always up is great.</P> <P>I'm not saying this is the be all end all of set ups but it really works for me and I'm happy with it.</P><p>Message Edited by Serventof Wrath on <span class=date_text>09-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Perfectionist shortens the recast timers on two CAs, Rain of Arrows and Sniper's Shot. </P> <P>Ranged crits are probably always a good thing; melee crits...maybe. Depends how much time you spend melee'ing. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Does the increased ranged crit's affect auto attack and CA's?</P> <P>I tend to try and get in that melee/ranged sweet spot so the melee crit AA helps.</P> <P>Though I'm still a relatively young ranger at 38.  Perhaps this will change later on.</P>

[Cylmore]

Here's something I've always wondered about:  If you are in that sweetspot where ranged and melee CA's both work, which will auto attack, range or melee?  Or does it matter?  If melee, does that hurt your dps?Thanks<div></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Perfectionist shortens the recast timers on two CAs, Rain of Arrows and Sniper's Shot. </P> <P>Ranged crits are probably always a good thing; melee crits...maybe. Depends how much time you spend melee'ing. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Does the increased ranged crit's affect auto attack and CA's?</P> <P>I tend to try and get in that melee/ranged sweet spot so the melee crit AA helps.</P> <P>Though I'm still a relatively young ranger at 38.  Perhaps this will change later on.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, increased crit chance affects both autoattack and CAs. (Err... right?) LOL</P> <P>RE: Cylmore's question: if in the sweet spot, your autoattack will vary depending on your last CA. If the previous CA was a melee art, it will engage melee autoattack, and vice versa. The exception here is the Point Blank Shot AA ability, which fires at melee range but is technically a bow attack, so it engages ranged autoattack. And generally speaking, your ranged auto-attack will do more damage.</P>

[Cylmore]

Ah, thanks for that info.  Now the next question.  If your auto attack is set for melee (even just some of the time), won't being in the sweetspot hurt your dps?  Then it's not so sweet is it?  <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Jay]

<P>No, *being* there doesn't hurt anything. Sitting on melee autoattack might, but I'd assume that any decrease in DPS from brief use of melee autoatack is offset by the jousting you have to do if you spent most of your time outside of melee range. </P> <P>Of course this is all subjective and really depends on the phase of the moon and Manpoon's mood on the second Thursday of every other month. </P>

[Tobann]

Its an interesting point abouot point blank shot. I seem to recall seeing my Ranger go into melee autoattack after using point blank and not ranged. I wil try this  out tonight to confirm. But it is tru that ranged CA's trigger the ranged autoattack and melee CA's trigger melee autoattack.Buaf<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tobann wrote:<BR>Its an interesting point abouot point blank shot. I seem to recall seeing my Ranger go into melee autoattack after using point blank and not ranged. I wil try this  out tonight to confirm. But it is tru that ranged CA's trigger the ranged autoattack and melee CA's trigger melee autoattack.<BR><BR>Buaf<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Point blank used to trigger melee.  When they changed it to trigger ranged, I was initially upset.  But, now when I joust-in for melee or cycling through my melee while in the sweet spot, I use it as my final CA so it automatically puts me into ranged as I'm transitioning back to ranged attacks.  It works pretty well like that. </P> <P>Also, I've found that you can switch to melee auto attack while it's casting, so that you don't lose melee damage if you are soloing.</P>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote: <P>Point blank used to trigger melee.  When they changed it to trigger ranged, I was initially upset.  But, now when I joust-in for melee or cycling through my melee while in the sweet spot, I use it as my final CA so it automatically puts me into ranged as I'm transitioning back to ranged attacks.  It works pretty well like that. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly what I do. I always finish with PBS if I'm moving back out to ranged or just switching off melee CAs to ranged attacking.

[Rinio]

<P>using the sweet spot the best thing to do is as your melee CA casts hit your auto ranged attack button so after the melee CA finishes it attacks with auto ranged attack and not auto melee attack, your bow will always hit harder then your weapon or at least should.</P> <P>The point of using a sweet spot in my opinion is so that you never have to auto melee attack, I use T5 Dual wields that still proc off ranged and can get away with it because I never auto attack with melee :smileytongue:</P> <P>That is just my play style if staying max range works for you by all means have at it. All I know is it works for me.</P> <P>oh its very arrow intensive to play in the sweet spot and never melee.. so always keep stocked up</P> <P>just a thought but in most cases the bow does hit harder auto attack then a melee weapon has anyone tried sweet spot combat with a zerker or other bow weilding class hitting auto ranged inbetween Melee CAs? wonder if it would increase there dps.. since all bows hit the same and rangers really have little if any innate Ranged auto attack advanatages.</P><p>Message Edited by RinionX on <span class=date_text>09-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[Rahmn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shaulin Dolamite wrote:<BR> <DIV>So if u go agi/int line is it better to use caustic or the hemotoxin?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Over zone wide parses I have seen those poisons add equal amounts of damage, but if your fightin mostly in groups or solo use the one that does one big hit since mobs die before the dot poison can tick all the way through to full affect.

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rahmn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shaulin Dolamite wrote:<BR> <DIV>So if u go agi/int line is it better to use caustic or the hemotoxin?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Over zone wide parses I have seen those poisons add equal amounts of damage, but if your fightin mostly in groups or solo use the one that does one big hit since mobs die before the dot poison can tick all the way through to full affect.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Caustic is the big hit, Hemotoxin is the DoT one... personally I usually stick with caustic, but I don't have the Int line currently. <BR>

[Deml]

I took the int line, down to spell crits and I personally only use caustic for my damage poison.  Hemotoxin may do more damage overall but I always seem to proc Caustic often enough that I wouldn't get much out of hemotoxin in the long run, or at least that's how it seems.

[Tobann]

The Hemotoxin would work better on the longer named encounters,but regular mobs its way better to use caustic. Its too expensive to cancel the caustic and use hemotoxin for the long encounters so I dont even buy any. I imagine the raiders may use the hemotoxin more.Buaf<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

Int line over STR line any day .. 52% spell crits is awesome.  14% melee crits is wasted on a Ranger.  I wouldnt waste points on the final Int ability either.. 44481 AGI and 4448 Int, spend the last point where you like.  Had a Ranger friendly recently drop the STR line for INT and she is VERY happy she did.. <div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:Int line over STR line any day .. 52% spell crits is awesome.  14% melee crits is wasted on a Ranger.  I wouldnt waste points on the final Int ability either.. 44481 AGI and 4448 Int, spend the last point where you like.  Had a Ranger friendly recently drop the STR line for INT and she is VERY happy she did.. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Its better for assassins than rangers for the intline.. And I was considering getting 4-4-4-8-0 and 4-4-4-8-8And, has anyone ever checked the deagro line? A 60% reduction in recast/cast time - does it work with longblade? (valid question)I was seriously thinking the the 14% crit boost would outweigh the 52% spell boost - since it only works on stream of arrows, and poisons.. Where the 14% boost works on dots, backstabs, and whathave you..A 52% spell boost gives you roughly 15% more dps out of your poisons (30% extra damage to a 50% chance)..And a caustic poison wich does 700 dmgish + 15% gives you somewhere along the lines of 80/90 extra damage average to a 25% chance totaling 197.5/1s = 65/3s = dps.. (there is a %age of an ability over 3s to get your dps - so the 3s cancel out to get a total of 65 dps)Forgot about quick shot 77*0.15=12+77=89                                                                 +65                                                                       154*0.15=23.1 added dps., but on a 14% chance to do an extra 30% dps (using the same logic) gives a 4.2% increase in your total melee dps.. *opens parser* Taking on random trash mobs in labs (im not waiting for a full merge to do this).. Now averaging at 1.1k dps on this merge230 melee dps (bad haste group)900 CA dps.Shocking thrust 23Rangers blade 73Mortal Reminder 43Longblade 53Emberstrike 48Arrow rip 16Lunging joust 17257*0.04=10.28Ok, I just proved myself wrong (doing all of this as I go).. You get 13 more dps in the intline than in getting the 14% dps..Ok, and what do I do after doing 5 hours of math, physics, and calculus homework for mech engineering.. THIS [Removed for Content].</div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class="date_text">09-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:34 PM</span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p><span class="time_text">Editing this to do 7% crit (rank 4 in crit)</span></p><p><span class="time_text">The total overall dmg diffrence between  the crit and 7% crit chance is 0.021%</span></p><p><span class="time_text">So, the total dmg diffrence is 257*0.021= 5.4 dps diffrence</span></p><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>10-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 AM</span>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>Int line over STR line any day .. 52% spell crits is awesome.  14% melee crits is wasted on a Ranger.  I wouldnt waste points on the final Int ability either.. <BR><BR>44481 AGI and 4448 Int, spend the last point where you like.  Had a Ranger friendly recently drop the STR line for INT and she is VERY happy she did.. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Even if you have low INT? I mean... REALLY low INT?</P> <P>And I'm talking about my <EM>character</EM>, ya fruitcakes. </P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:Int line over STR line any day .. 52% spell crits is awesome.  14% melee crits is wasted on a Ranger.  I wouldnt waste points on the final Int ability either.. 44481 AGI and 4448 Int, spend the last point where you like.  Had a Ranger friendly recently drop the STR line for INT and she is VERY happy she did.. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Its better for assassins than rangers for the intline.. And I was considering getting 4-4-4-8-0 and 4-4-4-8-8And, has anyone ever checked the deagro line? A 60% reduction in recast/cast time - does it work with longblade? (valid question)</div><hr></blockquote>its better for both.  The STR line certainly doesnt do Rangers any favors.. thats definately better for Assassins... same as the AGI line is better for Rangers and not so great for Assassins..  Rangers - AGI, Assassins STR and they should both take the INT line.52% spell crits is awsome. .. works on your poisons .. and a number of your dots, thermal shockers, and most importantly, procs.  Its definately worth it.</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:Int line over STR line any day .. 52% spell crits is awesome.  14% melee crits is wasted on a Ranger.  I wouldnt waste points on the final Int ability either.. 44481 AGI and 4448 Int, spend the last point where you like.  Had a Ranger friendly recently drop the STR line for INT and she is VERY happy she did.. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Its better for assassins than rangers for the intline.. And I was considering getting 4-4-4-8-0 and 4-4-4-8-8And, has anyone ever checked the deagro line? A 60% reduction in recast/cast time - does it work with longblade? (valid question)</div><hr></blockquote>its better for both.  The STR line certainly doesnt do Rangers any favors.. thats definately better for Assassins... same as the AGI line is better for Rangers and not so great for Assassins..  Rangers - AGI, Assassins STR and they should both take the INT line.52% spell crits is awsome. .. works on your poisons .. and a number of your dots, thermal shockers, and most importantly, procs.  Its definately worth it.</div><hr></blockquote>dots are melee, not spells.. that was a large part of the confusion..But the part I edit'd was just the 14% part, theres still going to be a good dps bonus at 7% - as well as the reduced casting time on rain/snipers...I just dont want to spend the time to go in depth on that. Its only a matter of time till my brain explodes.</div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>All you people keep jumping away from the OP's game play and keep moving it to yours.  He clearly stated that he Mainly solo's or does small groups.  Stop focusing on what works best on raids and stick to what he is asking.</P> <P>In solo play he <EM>will</EM> be doing alot of melee and he will also be taking more direct attacks.  From that standpoint alone it is better for him to go down the Str line then the Int line.  The Str line will increase his parry to better keep him alive and increase his melee crits which he <EM>will </EM>be using alot more then in a raid setting.  The Int line does offer the extra damage from poison crits but the defensive buff is only effective after he gets hit with a melee attack.  Talking neurotoxic coating here.</P> <P> </P>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR> <P>All you people keep jumping away from the OP's game play and keep moving it to yours.  He clearly stated that he Mainly solo's or does small groups.  Stop focusing on what works best on raids and stick to what he is asking.</P> <P>In solo play he <EM>will</EM> be doing alot of melee and he will also be taking more direct attacks.  From that standpoint alone it is better for him to go down the Str line then the Int line. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hey, want a badge to wear while policing our threads? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Seriously, there were plenty of answers on the first page that recommended STR line for soloing and grouping. The OP even acknowledged those answers and understood them. The discussion evolved from there with a few add'l questions about different AA abilities and the contexts in which different lines are most useful. I'd agree with your complaint if the OP's question had been ignored, but it wasn't - it was answered and we moved on from there. I for one don't think we need to start more and more threads after 3-6 posts answer one single question.</P>

[Tobann]

I think I have the info I needed, and thanks to all the posters. I think it has been an interesting discussion, so I have no problem with the way the discussion has gone.Buaf<div></div>

[Cylmore]

<DIV>Personally, I've been trying to figure out which way to go, so this thread has really helped me.  Never hurts to look at all the angles.</DIV>

[Rahmn]

I'm actually noticing that the 52% spell damage crit chance seems to work on procs as well as poisons.

[Salor Ravensworth]

Agl and Int for raids and Agl, Str for solo, single group setup.  Depending on what you do should determine your setup.

[Kala Asuras]

Rahmn, you mentioned procs but I was curious if anyone was seeing and increase in Quick Shot crits do to the INT AA since it is a bit of a funny proc for us. (damage is increased with STR instead of INT like poisons)<div></div>

[Rahmn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kala Asuras wrote:<BR>Rahmn, you mentioned procs but I was curious if anyone was seeing and increase in Quick Shot crits do to the INT AA since it is a bit of a funny proc for us. (damage is increased with STR instead of INT like poisons)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes I include that in procs and I do see more Quick shot crits.  It doesn't however increase the rate of the actually proc.

[Kala Asuras]

I just recently changed from agi/str to agi/int and have to say I am not seeing what you are in regards to the Quick Shot procs.  They don't seem to be criting more often and the crits that I do get match the % from the AGI line more than the 52% spell crits from the INT line.  Is anyone else seeing something similar?<div></div>

[dbyrd1568]

42 AA's AGI line went 4/4/4/4/1 and INT line 4/4/4/4 was waiting for 8 points to do the finial INT ability because thinking the debuffs would work on Epics. Do you think as an epic debuff, the ablity is worth it? Or should I max my 2 crit lines in INT and AGI?<div></div>

[xandez]

<DIV>Well... if generally the most things that do dmg for me is piercing, poison and quick shot... *shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd maybe try out maxing the crits lines, but thats just me... have only 17 points atm and of those 8 in point blank shot, because i like the 3s stun in solo <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>++Xan</DIV>

[Tobann]

Ive completed the Agi line and the Int line up to the final AA skill. I think Im going to try and max put my ranged crits and poisen crits for now and see how that does. I still have my free respec if it doesnt work. This may all go out the window of course when the new AA's come in with the expansion.Buaf<div></div>

[Bratik]

Godd discussion all.  I have had the same questions and I'm getting close to having to choose between str and ini.  I havent heard anyone comment on choosing with PVP in mind.  Any thoughts?  I'm thinking ini for the increased poison effects.

[xandez]

not a PvP:er myself, but...Isnt the PvP all about survivability? Not just that you can gank someone effectively, but that you can also survive in the process.... I'd prolly take AGI and STA lines in PvP and maybe give the AGI line last ability a try also... since its not nice to wait those long cast time CA:s to complete when someones trying to kill ya! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But... surely more dmg wont hurt in the process. Even wisdom line could be nice in PvP i think... shrug.++Xan<div></div>

[LoreLady]

Bumping this up for a change in a earlier post showing 7% chance to crit in melee