My study of the bird

[Judist]

<DIV>It seems that Hawk Dive is shunned by the majority of T7 rangers as a worthless CA. Many dont understand it use and they feel it does worse for aggro control rather than improving it. Because the definition isnt 100% clear on its mechanics I've focused a little time on understanding it completely so maybe the rest can see its usefullness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Description.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Calls a hawk to attack the rangers target. Every time the hawk successfully strikes the target, all <U>non-fighters</U> in the ranger's<U> group</U> have some of their hate siphoned to the hawk for <U>a few seconds</U>. The amount of hate siphoned increases through upgrades.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Facts, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"A few seconds" means the hawk gets an aggro wipe every 3-5 seconds (based on haste buffs and the bards spell duration buffs). You can see this wipe happen on your active spell bar. If the hawk did not get this free wipe it would gain too much aggro, die, and the duration of this CA would never finish. A downside is on aggro wipe/attack the hawk takes you out of stealth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group spike DPS <U>within this 5 second period</U> CAN cause the hawk to aquire too much aggro, grab the mob and die. Now I've heard players say when the hawk grabs aggro and dies, the mob comes after the ranger next. I've YET to see this happen. If this is so then 1) Your tank needs to step up his aggro control and 2) your not making using your de-aggros properly. Elude and evade should never be used as a defense, use them EVERY time they are avaliable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The hawk's aggro reduction is group (not raid) wide. Some raidleaders have no problem stacking multiple rangers in the same group because we have no real group buffs. However a ranger in each DPS group makes much more use of the hawks aggro reduction. 2 hawks up at the same time (from the same group) does stack but why put so much aggro reduction in just 1 group? A ranger is each DPS group is optimal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did a test a few weeks ago. Had a group of 3 lvl 70 DPS and 1 lvl 55 fighter take on Maggy in LS. I tanked the epic and told the fighter to NOT use any taunts whatsoever. By 50% I had gained a TON of aggro from sheer damage. I then casted the hawk and within 5 seconds the fighter got aggro. The hawk did not die, the fighter just got aggro even though the DPS classes were easilly doubling the DPS of the fighter. I had to cancel the hawk just to peel the mob back on me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our raids usually contain 3-4 rangers who all use hawk. On a wipe (after the hawks have been released atleast once) every fighter class dies first <U>even if they were not taunting or creating high DPS</U>. Many support fighters ask why they were next in line to die and I explain that its because hawk was used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>High end T7 raid rangers should NOT use the M1 hawk. If your in an uber raid guild and your group is putting out the BEST DPS a M1 hawk is not for you. The upgraded hawk sucks much more hate which means you bird is gonna die very fast. You can prevent this if (as stated above) your tank is doing his job, your using de-aggros properly and you dont use your M1 hawk until group DPS has settled down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conclusion,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone complains that rangers dont have something to contribute to a raid except DPS. We do have something to contribute. The ability to reduce our entire groups hate with the use of our hawk. With proper use you'll see less players grabbing aggro from the tank and many more potential wipes recovered because the MOB gets stuck on the fighter classes instead of wiping out your healers first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sirlutt]

The hawk is a danger in raids.  I have seen it many times get hit by an AE and transfer its hate to the Ranger and wipe the raid. Its still useless and I still wouldnt replace any other DPS class with a ranger.<div></div>

[Judist]

<DIV>You call it high risk? High DPS classes pull aggro WAAAAAAYYYY more than my hawk ever has. If hawk is high risk then mages and summoner are higher risk and should be banned. Is that what your saying?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And unlike paper wearers I have excellent  de-aggro IF I did get aggro from hawk <U>which I never have!</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No sir, I PREVENT dps classes from getting aggro with hawk, so dont come around trying to downplay something you havent seen used correctly. Your post was pointless. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get mad because a ranger is usefull, you'll still have your spot in the raid...</DIV>

[Jayad]

<P>How many times has your raid wiped when the hawk dies and you peel the mob?  I've had it happen.</P> <P>Your chain mail might as well be paper compared to epics.  Second, a properly designed raid has few aggro problems.  I could see it being more useful when you're short the MT hate increaser, troubs, etc.   And finally, on many mobs which have frontal AEs or short-range AEs, the chance of it peeling at all and coming to kill you may be low but is VERY bad when it happens.  Raid leaders don't usually like risk.</P> <P>Like I said, for a well-designed raid, the hawk doesn't add much but the risk is significant.  I believe the hate it siphons goes away if the spell ends, but not if it dies - then <STRONG>you</STRONG> get it.  If it were changed so the hate dissapears in both cases then I think it would be more useful.  The worse your hate management on a raid, the more useful it is - I'll give you that.</P>

[Judist]

<P>Never, I've never gotten the mob from hawk. Only from crit sniper shots or spike damage on pulls.<BR></P> <P>Second, my chain is hardly paper when it comes to epics. I've taken 2-3 hits before. Sigh, ya gotta think a lil guys. </P> <P>You dont cast hawk on pull, let the tank gain get aggro first, so when hawk is cast all the raid beduffs are in. At this point most classes in decent gear can take 1-2 hits and avoid much easier IF they get aggro.</P> <P>But ya'll knew that already right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>If hawk is nothing but an asset to your raid then you need smarter rangers or a better tank.</P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>BeatinGuts wrote:<div></div> <p>Never, I've never gotten the mob from hawk. Only from crit sniper shots or spike damage on pulls.</p> <p>Second, my chain is hardly paper when it comes to epics. I've taken 2-3 hits before. Sigh, ya gotta think a lil guys. </p> <p>You dont cast hawk on pull, let the tank gain get aggro first, so when hawk is cast all the raid beduffs are in. At this point most classes in decent gear can take 1-2 hits and avoid much easier IF they get aggro.</p> <p>But ya'll knew that already right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>If hawk is nothing but an asset to your raid then you need smarter rangers or a better tank.</p><hr></blockquote>sure sure .. what ever man .. you keep using the hawk on raids .. for my money.. its absolutely a bad thing(tm) to use the hawk because its not reliable and wipes raids.. but hey. .if it works for you.. you use it.btw its not about the person pulling agro taking hits.. its about the mob spinning and the rest of the raid taking the frontal.</div>

[Judist]

<P>Like i said the hawk prevents more aggro problems that causes them. </P> <P>But hey dont listen to me... Im a ranger who raids alot. What could I possibly know about the subject</P> <P>Assasins FTW</P>

[Merkad]

Hi there BeatinGuts, one thing I wanted to point out about this part of your post..."Every time the hawk successfully strikes the target, all non-fighters in the ranger's group have some of their hate siphoned to the hawk for a few seconds. The amount of hate siphoned increases through upgrades.More specifically the facts/definition of "A few seconds". You are saying it mem wipes it's aggro every few seconds and that you can see it when it shows the little buff on your active spell bar. The problem is that that is only one interpretation, and not the one I choose to think is correct. When I read that it siphons hate for a few seconds, to me, that means when the Hawk hits and that buff shows up, my hate is being siphoned, when that buff is down, it is no longer being siphoned, however, at no point does the spell say that hate is mem wiped, thus I think all hate accrued by the Hawk stays with the Hawk, it is just not siphoning more until it lands a melee attack again.Anyways, just how I understand this spell to read and work, but that does not mean it is right.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

[Judist]

<P>Now I'm not sure of the precentages, maybe one day a dev will enlighten us.</P> <P>Imagine if hawk siphoned x% hate from <U>every group strike</U> for 30 full seconds building up hate with no way to release it. The hawk would never last as long as it does. 30 seconds without a hate wipe is too long.</P> <P>Now imagine it siphoning x% hate from <U>every group strike</U> for only 5 seconds. That can still add up to alot thus why its <U>possible</U> for the hawk to grab the mob within those few seconds, but the group would need to spike damage together or your using M1 hawk in a top tier raid guild which is putting out high DPS. </P> <P>This leads me to believe the hawk timer you see in active spells is its reset/memwipe timer. And it's why I dont suggest using the M1 hawk. Smaller hate siphoned is still protective and more stable IMO.</P> <P>Based on my experiment (I mentioned earler), my Ad1 hawk would have to siphon a large amount hate to give that fighter aggro, considering we were doubling what he did for DPS. This that also solidifies my claim the hawk MUST memwipe, as the hawk siphoned hate from 3 lvl70 DPS classes and maggy still went for the lvl 55 fighter (not taunting) leaving the hawk alone. </P> <P>So what have we established? The hawk siphons a large amount of hate. Atleast 33% groupwide would be needed for that fighter to out aggro 3 DPS classes. We've also established the fighter got hate before the hawk did meaning the hawk must memwipe. Without a wipe the hawk would be next on the aggro list.</P> <P>Yes, until a dev can clear this up 100%, no one can be sure. But I stand by my hawk. It dosent wipe our raids, it protects our DPS and healer classes from getting eaten. </P> <P>Incredibly valuable in my opinion...</P>

[Vaiko]

<P><FONT size=3>I normally don’t use the hawk. I hate it when the hawk is breaking my stealth.<BR>But I know a Ranger who uses the hawk regularly on raids and I can’t remember that he grabbed even once aggro because of the hawk.<BR>The Warlock and the Wizards, I’m grouped with, are catching regularly aggro. Therefore I have a clear opinion about who is the risk for the raid.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>If certain Assassins don’t like Ranger, it’s not a problem for me. We compete for the same raid slot, competing for similar equipment but have a total different profile. The only thing we are sharing is, we are both DDs. <SPAN><FONT face=Arial>It sounds natural for me that I’m not welcom from all Assassins.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>BG, thanks for sharing your experiences. I think, based on your observations I will test few things out with my small flying friend.<BR></FONT></P>

[Teksun]

I use my hawk all the time. On raids, in group and solo (he has kept agro through entire fights solo - but that's NOT the subject here).I have died ONCE using my hawk. I launched him to early on a mob with a HIGH damage shield (in LABs - forget the name). Even though I died, he went right back to the MT.I like using my hawk. I'll continue using my hawk, and I feel sorry for those that feel it's useless.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<P>I raid T7 regularly and use the hawk, when appropriate (waiting for skills requiring stealth to refresh).  I haven't pulled aggro in ages.  What ever it was that that gave us aggro when the hawk died, seems to be fixed.  I've stated this several times and no one has come back and told me that their hawk pulled aggro in a raid recently.  I have the M1 version, which absorbs 24% I believe and have never had the hawk pull aggro, but like I said before, we are usually a little ways into the fight before the hawk goes up.</P> <P>I'm having an aggro issue that just popped up recently, which has nothing to do with the hawk, that I'm trying to figure out.  But I'll save that for another thread.  Bottom line is that if your group is set up optimally, the hawk is unnecessary,  But how often does your group have the optimal set up?  30% of the time?  90%?  There are times when the hawk will save your bacon.  It's hardly useless.</P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<DIV>For the longest time I would not use the bird on raids.  I have turned the mob because of an early hawk death just in time for a frontal to smoke half the raid and all the healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However I have noticed recently the hawk has been acting differently.  For one it has been living through some pretty nasty AoEs.  Not sure if they increased its hit points or if its just been lucky but it has been living longer for me.  Also on early hawk deaths I have not seen the mob so much as flinch towards me.  Even on fights where all the top dps parsers where in my group the mob stayed on the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now it could be that the tank is doing a better job or it could be that they ninja fixed the hawk in some way.  I couldn't tell you for sure either way.  I do send the hawk a little bit more now then I was a month ago but I would still say its far from being useful enough to justify my raid slot solely on the bird.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now my good looks and witty banter......</DIV>

[Judist]

Yes, witty bantor is still the #1 reason to secure a position for a ranger on a raid <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jayad]

<P>The hawk itself doesn't pull aggro - it doesn't have enough relative to the tank.  You can get aggro when the hawk has siphoned off a lot of hate and dies to an AOE.  Then YOU get the hate it had, which if you are on the borderline for peeling can put you over the edge.  If you are doing 80% of the tank's hate in DPS, it's a lot less than you migth think to put you in the danger zone.  Obviously, if you do less DPS yourself, you have more cushion to work with relative to the tank.  I'm usually treading the line closely on pickup raids (when I use my ranger) and don't have a lot of room for mistakes or additional hate.</P> <P>In 5 seconds, the hate the hawk has may not be much, but after 20 or 25 seconds it can have quite a bit.  Even 15% of a DPS group's hate for 25 seconds is a lot more than you can do! Then an AOE could be very bad news.  I don't believe the hate memwipes on the hawk until it terminates normally. </P> <P>I haven't used it in a long time on raids.  Maybe its mechanics have changed.  You get a dirge on a guardian, coercer amends on the top caster, troubie hate debuffs, using de-aggro poisons with scouts, etc. and there's really not much of a hate problem.  If you don't have those things, then go for it.  For sub-optimal raids it's a much better tool, but why give us a tool for poorly designed raids?  That's not good.</P> <P>Personally, I think the bird is stupid.  Nobody is going to think, "Gee, the ranger has a hawk, we should bring them to the raid so we can DPS".  There are already such classes.  They are called bards and chanters.  We already have lame ancient teaching abilities.  The only good one is Snipe  We'd be far better off having some type of DPS ability.  IF - and I'm not in favor of this - but IF we are going to have some utility instead of DPS, then it should be something a lot more useful.</P>

[Kiluvi]

<P>The hawk does not 'mem wipe' at any point; there is no reason for that at all. At Master 1, the hawk siphons about 24% of the group's hate. Now, between recast timers and casting timers of the whole group, think of it like the hawk is equalizing the group's hate between 7 group members instead of each member of the group gaining their average hate.</P> <P>The hawk is a minor utility spell. People complained about Rangers having a lack of utility, but we're not a utility class, so they gave us a minor utility spell - we're not Troubadors. It is not useful in every situation, just llike debuffing a mob's heat resistance with Vines is not useful if the mob happens to be immune to heat damage, or any arcane damage for that matter. On encounters that have no AoE attacks, there is no reason to not use the hawk, and vice versa on mobs that do have AoE attacks. It is not a 'useless' spell, its just not ideal for every scenario.</P>

[LoreLady]

Nice post beatin guts.. But, I have afew things to say on why I dislike to use the bird..First - the bird does 200 damage every 3 seconds.. (this a fair assumption to everyone?). So, in 10 seconds thats 800 damage.. When you use the bird you missout on emberstrike, I am also going to add longblade into the equation as well.So longblade - about 750 damageEmberstrike - about 1kish damage (general damage nothing at the top nothing at the bottom, just somewhere in the middle for both)So, within 11 seconds (1s recovery time for both) your doing about 1.7k damage.. Where with a bird (rounded up for 12s) - about 1k damage..Now, if the bird worked in such a way that it dident break stealth, and had AE immunity.. I WOULD LOVE IT.. Unfortunatly, the way it currently is it is not practical for me to use it on raids - unless I am grouped with aton of wizards..And btw - the bird is something I DO use under the right situations.. I have been in a group where the tank was just starting out, and our rouges/wizards etc were taking agro really quick - so confounding arrow, and birdie were always my two first spells to use inorder to help out the tank..Group wise - I like to use the bird because the fights are too short to worry about melee/stealthed attacks for the most part..Solo wise - it helps alot.

[Judist]

<P><FONT color=#ff0000>In 5 seconds, the hate the hawk has may not be much, but after 20 or 25 seconds it can have quite a bit.  Even 15% of a DPS group's hate for 25 seconds is a lot more than you can do! Then an AOE could be very bad news.  I don't believe the hate memwipes on the hawk until it terminates normally.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Huh? If hawk is gaining 15% hate from 6 group members thats 90%. I generally parse top 3 of the raid soo, thats not more hate than I can generate myself. Alot is more around 25% which is around the area im thinkin of. And if its 25% of 6 DPS classes and my hawk is lasting its duration, it HAS to memwipe. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The hawk does not 'mem wipe' at any point; there is no reason for that at all. At Master 1, the hawk siphons about 24% of the group's hate.</FONT></P> <P>Wrong, this is proven with my test and I cannot put it any simplier. You see its duration in the active spells, and even the description says it siphons for a few seconds (at a time). The devs arent stupid enuf to make a utility thats guarenteed to get aggro/die/aggro the ranger (which I've <U>never</U> gotten from the hawk anyways). </P> <P>Any hawk that siphons/gains 24% of 6 players would NEVER last 30 seconds UNLESS it memwiped, so why does my hawk never die unless my group spikes damage at once or its AOE'd?</P> <P>Anyways, the big point is being missed here.</P> <P>Have a hawk going in every major group and the fighter classes will gain hate at a MUCH faster rate compared to every other class regardless of taunts or DPS amount, this is proven with my test.</P> <P>Example numbers with hawk up:</P> <P>Fighters gain 1.0pt hate per second<BR>Uber DPS gain .85pt hate per second<BR>Healers gain .80pt hate per second<BR>General DPS gain .75pt hate per second<BR>Utility gain .70pt hate per second</P> <P>Over the course of the hawks duration every fighter class has gained a significant buffer of hate (lets say 15% more) compared to the rest of the raid. The longer the hawks are up the larger the buffer. If you use hawk only once, good DPS classes can eventually catch up to the fighters in hate.</P> <P>Yes, single target aggro buffs help the MT gain huge amounts of aggro but what if the MT dies? Healers and DPS classes die next, <U>not</U> the other fighter classes.</P> <P>Rangers can lower the hate of everyone else at a significant rate. Like I said before, when we wipe in our raids every fighter goes down <U>before</U> another class is touched "<U>when</U>" hawks are used. This is fact. And many MANY times we've recovered from wipes because of this.</P> <P>It allows the MA to get aggro next without 2-3 healers getting 1-shotted first<BR>Or if our monks (high DPS fighter) gets aggro next, he hits tsunami while MA trys to rescue<BR>Even the support pallys/sk's have taken over and successfully tanked on the spot<BR></P> <P>Lastly, fighters classes are usually in melee range, if they all get aggro next the mob isnt running loose/turning as much. This halts panic and is a godsend to the MA/healers/utility classes who need to regain control of the situation.</P>

[Kiluvi]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>In 5 seconds, the hate the hawk has may not be much, but after 20 or 25 seconds it can have quite a bit.  Even 15% of a DPS group's hate for 25 seconds is a lot more than you can do! Then an AOE could be very bad news.  I don't believe the hate memwipes on the hawk until it terminates normally.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Huh? If hawk is gaining 15% hate from 6 group members thats 90%. I generally parse top 3 of the raid soo, thats not more hate than I can generate myself. Alot is more around 25% which is around the area im thinkin of. And if its 25% of 6 DPS classes and my hawk is lasting its duration, <STRONG><FONT color=#ff00ff>it HAS to memwipe.</FONT> </STRONG></FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The hawk does not control the mob's hate list. What you're talking about - a 'mem wipe' - would clear the hawk's hate list of anything attacking the hawk. The hawk has 2 abilities: Melee attack and the temporary hate siphoning effect (that is triggered by the melee attack).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The hawk 'mem wiping' theory doesn't even make any sense at all based on the fact that the hawk's hate list is not shared with the mob's hate list. The hawk doesn't even have a hate list because it is a dumbfire pet that can only attack the target which you casted the spell upon.</DIV>

[Kiluvi]

<P>All other topics aside, I do agree with the original conclusion:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <DIV>With proper use you'll see less players grabbing aggro from the tank and many more potential wipes recovered</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rahmn]

I use the hawk during raids, it is a good indicator of when a nasty aoe is down.  Never once have I seen it grab agro, never once has it died and the mob jumped to me.

[LoreLady]

Beatin - out of the tests I have done.. There is 0 memwhipe with the bird.. Forinstance, I can go and solo a mob and the birdie will keep the mob indefinatly (or untill it dies, or the 30s is up).Im not saying the birdie is useless at all.. And I hope no one puts any future comments about me saying so.. However on raids, it will help a single group if the MT dies so that people can whipe agro.. However, in terms of the birds survivalbility and boosting dps.. It just doesnt happen, so for me who doesnt group - rarely solos.. I dont consider it of much use unless in special circumstances..Also id hate to do this, but compare the birdie to the assassin 65 special... 30% auto attack damage, plus lowering recasts for a short period of time.. Im sorry to say this, but untill they make the birdie AE immune and being able to stealth while using it; its just not practical for me.

[Jayad]

<P>Comments in <FONT color=#66cc00>GREEN</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>In 5 seconds, the hate the hawk has may not be much, but after 20 or 25 seconds it can have quite a bit.  Even 15% of a DPS group's hate for 25 seconds is a lot more than you can do! Then an AOE could be very bad news.  I don't believe the hate memwipes on the hawk until it terminates normally.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Huh? If hawk is gaining 15% hate from 6 group members thats 90%. I generally parse top 3 of the raid soo, thats not more hate than I can generate myself. Alot is more around 25% which is around the area im thinkin of. And if its 25% of 6 DPS classes and my hawk is lasting its duration, it HAS to memwipe. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>90% is still less than the MT is probably generating (otherwise he wouldn't be able to hold aggro at all).  Also, it's a very simple way to think about it.  Usually in a DPS group you might have 1 or 2 higher DPS folks and the hawk siphons some of their hate.  Therefore, you are probably getting 15 or 25% of 1 or 2 people's higher dps and the remaining ones are lesser.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The hawk does not 'mem wipe' at any point; there is no reason for that at all. At Master 1, the hawk siphons about 24% of the group's hate.</FONT></P> <P>Wrong, this is proven with my test and I cannot put it any simplier. You see its duration in the active spells, and even the description says it siphons for a few seconds (at a time). The devs arent stupid enuf to make a utility thats guarenteed to get aggro/die/aggro the ranger (which I've <U>never</U> gotten from the hawk anyways).</P> <P>Any hawk that siphons/gains 24% of 6 players would NEVER last 30 seconds UNLESS it memwiped, so why does my hawk never die unless my group spikes damage at once or its AOE'd?</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>This makes no sense.  If everybody is doing very high DPS, let's say 1000 dps, and you get 24% x 6 that is only 1500 dps (to round it off).  If the tank is only generating 1000 dps worth of hate, then it would peel, but that's assuming the *total* amount started at zero.  Not everybody in a dps group will do that much, and the tank will usually have quite a bit of hate already built up.   </FONT></P> <P>Anyways, the big point is being missed here.</P> <P>Have a hawk going in every major group and the fighter classes will gain hate at a MUCH faster rate compared to every other class regardless of taunts or DPS amount, this is proven with my test.</P> <P>[...]</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>If you set up your groups properly, this isn't an issue anyways.  Recruit some bards and a coercer and the problem will dissapear totally.  All your test is proving is that your MT is set up inadaquately. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Let's pretend the hawk works as you say for a moment.  Compare 1 troubador versus your ranger hawk?  It's not even close.   Their hate decreaser (which is always on) works MUCH better. A dirge or coercer in the MT group will do better than your hawk (which only works for the group you are in).  +40% hate gain on MT?  Always on?  I'll take that.  The coercer can also decrease the hate of your worst offender anywhere in the raid.  All this is always on.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>I don't think the bird is *entirely* useless.  The problem is, as a special level 65 spell it's total crap.  As Lore pointed out, look at the one assassins get.  Compare them.  Are you kidding me?  Sorcerors get Fusion and Rift.  I won't even go into the other classes (some also have gimpy ones) but you get the point.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>If the bird was a serious DOT or something it would be fine, but it's not.  We're totally rationalizing things here about trying to feel useful.  And you do get the hate it has siphoned when it dies.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tarryn]

<P>I use the hawk on raids whenever I'm waiting for my stealth attack timers to refresh.  It dies early a lot due to AOEs and whatnot...however, I have NEVER had the mob turn toward me when the hawk died.  I have pulled aggro a time or two, but not when I was using the hawk--alive or dead. :p</P> <P>It would be really nice if the devs would actually explain how the stupid thing works, though, so I know if its effect is actually worth its downside.  It's really annoying when I forget and send the bird early and have to cancel it to do stealth attacks.</P>

[Judist]

<P>Well folks I've given my take on the bird, and I cant argue the results I've come up with any more than I already have. Some just refuse to be swayed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Anyhow I hope that I and some of our posters have convinced a few more that hawk is hardly useless and having a few rangers in your raid is a good thing.</P> <P>I do have 1 final example to make then Ill leave this topic alone...</P> <P>Did DT tonight w/ 4 rangers. Yup, 4 rangers in a raid OMG. Anyhoo, we all love the hawk and use it multiple times. Now we wiped completely once and <U>almost</U> wiped many times. On each saved wipe no healers/dps were touched <U>when</U> hawks have been casted. We had 1 coercer in the MT group. Other than that, no other utility classes except a troub in the high DPS group (along w/ 3 mages 2 rangers).</P> <P>Point is, FACT is, hawk allowed the fighters to gain aggro at a faster rate than the DPS/Healers could. If you know DT then you know at anypoint one of those Gazers can charm the MT, and when they did the gazer went after fighters. Sometimes the fighters who wernt meant to get aggro next, more often the MA who was on the ball tonight w/ rescues.</P> <P>Now what would you rather have? A low DPS utility class coupled with every fighter to ensure they get aggro when the chain breaks down? Or a pure DPS class who can lower every non-fighters hate.</P> <P>Both ways work very well, this is the way we like more tho.</P> <P>Also, (trying not to derail myself) 4 rangers using their hategain arrow CA is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] effective at getting mobs to stick to the tank. I dare someone to peel off a single target mob from the MT after 4 rangers have done their thing... GL w/ that.</P>

[Rinio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote: <P><FONT size=3>If certain Assassins don’t like Ranger, it’s not a problem for me. We compete for the same raid slot, competing for similar equipment but have a total different profile. </FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>doood i dont want an assassins raid spot the classes are tottaly diffrent. an assassin may want to be grouped with a wizard for the melee proc and + STR. I dont! melee proc is useless to me. </P> <P>An assassin may want to be grouped with a Drige for blades and to cap his dps. while dps is nice! again meleeee proc absolutely useless to me.</P> <P>An assassin may want a fury for agitate, omg again another melee only! useless for me. also an assassin may i want a illusionist being he gets 0 Haste mods besides his worn item</P> <P>As a ranger I want a Conj for a proc that works off ranged, or a coercer for 74% dps being we get no dps buff besides temps an inquisitor to finish dps and a nice ranged proc buff.</P> <P>then both classes may want a zerker and/or crusader for last slots of the group for dps/haste and/or proc buffs </P> <P>point being the classes are very different almost to the point of extreme opposite and to say we compete for the same raid spot just doesnt seem right.</P> <P>as for the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hawk, lol i have no opinion</P><p>Message Edited by RinionX on <span class=date_text>09-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 AM</span>

[Vifarc]

The Hawk is very useful when you pull winged mob far in the sky, or when you want to pull among social mobs: only the target will aggro.<div></div>

[Jayad]

<P>OK, obviously we are going to disagree.  That's fine.  A lot of guilds have different raid strategies and such - we don't have to all see it the same way.  I figure there's a lot of information here for people to chew on, and they can come up with their own conclusions.  I'll just make one short comment.</P> <P>I think the bird is dumb, but let's say it works as you say.  It's still an inferior skill to what Assassins get, or many classes get, at level 65.  Nobody is going to include Rangers to have it - we're not utility.  It doesn't help us do our primary job - DPS.  The assassin's level 65 skill does.  If they made the bird into a large DOT instead of hate siphoning, it would be so much better.  We're seriously gimped in the CA department for dps.</P>

[athitchcock]

<div></div>I have been able to Longblade - Emberstrike with the hawk up. I believe the hawk only breaks stealth when it attacks. I don't time it, I just hit the 2 buttons and sometimes I get lucky. I've actually pulled off Longblade - Ranger's Blade once or twice.While waiting at the spire in EL, I attacked several seperate groups of fairies and popped the hawk. Eventually all fairies were beating on the hawk, pretty handy in my opinion.I use it often in groups and raids, especially when the tank seems to have aggro control problems. It seems to help, but there is really no certain way to know.Gnaril<div></div>

[Jay]

FWIW, this thread has prompted me to start using the hawk more often to draw my own conclusions from direct experience. So far I did have one immediate death that was really odd, may have been related to hawk aggro siphon, but I'm not sure. Our raid force was set up a bit differently that night (various ppl missing) so it could have been any number of factors. (I'd almost forgotten what it's like to steal aggro, that was a trip!)

[Balerius]

<P>It seems this topic comes up about every couple of months.  /shrug.  So I guess I'll give my opinion again.</P> <P>-- I use the Hawk regularly.  All the time.</P> <P>-- I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever grabbed agro from the MT based on the hawk dying prematurely.</P> <P>-- The spell does not automatically prevent stealth attacks.  Stealth is only broken when the hawk attacks.  Over 95% of the time I can use my stealth based attacks without any hindrance when the hawk is up.</P> <P>Some salient facts:</P> <P>-- I don't really group or solo.  I only raid.</P> <P>-- I don't raid with idiots.  Our raids are setup with things like agro maintenance and agro mitigation in mind as well as dps maximization.</P> <P>Some observations:</P> <P>-- I find it somewhat contradictory when folks say the spell is useless because it has little effect on group agro reduction yet later the same people state that they don't use the spell because the hawk's premature death will cause the mob to agro on the ranger.  So which is it?  If it supposedly siphons so much agro that it's death can cause the mob to agro the ranger, then how can those people state that it has no benefit to reducing the agro of a group?</P> <P>--  In the end, the agro reduction doesn't matter to me anyway.  I don't use the spell for that.  To me, it's simply another means of adding to my dps.  To me, any group agro reduction is only a bonus.  Is it great dps?  Nope.  By why remove an arrow from your quiver for no reason?</P> <P>-- Oh, and did I mention?  I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever grabbed agro from the MT based on the hawk dying prematurely.</P>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Yes.  But have you ever drawn aggro withe the bird?:smileytongue:</DIV>

[LoreLady]

I just dont use the bird cause its broken my stealth so many friggen times that its [Removed for Content] me off one to many times.. I have it on my clickie hotbar now incase something big comes up.

[Nak]

can we just agree that unless your using it in a duel or on pvp or doing stupid solo [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], its the most retarted useless spell in comparrison to the assassin lvl 65 spell <div></div>

[Jay]

<DIV>Yep, that's more my issue with it... not that it's useless, but that it pales in comparison to what our beloved counterparts get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And it's just weird and convoluted. Sure, we're rangers, so apparently it has to be an outdoorsy kind of thing, hence the bird and not just a spell effect. But the fact that many of us who have talked it over on a regular basis are STILL unclear as to the nuances of application should make it apparent that the ability is unnecessarily complicated.</DIV>

[Vaiko]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaiko wrote: <P><FONT size=3>If certain Assassins don’t like Ranger, it’s not a problem for me. We compete for the same raid slot, competing for similar equipment but have a total different profile. </FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>doood i dont want an assassins raid spot the classes are tottaly diffrent. an assassin may want to be grouped with a wizard for the melee proc and + STR. I dont! melee proc is useless to me.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry for not being clear enough with my statement. When I was talking about a slot I meant the 'deliver damage' job. Everything you are mentioning in your list is what I meant with the profile. I agree with you, stating the differences.</P> <P>Thanks for the list, it's a nice summary and I recommend everyone to read it, who likes to know more about the differences between both classes.</P> <P><BR> </P>