How good is ranger dps compared to the rest of the raid?

[TimidMou]

<DIV>I've heard from people saying exactly opposite things on this topic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Firstly, and most importantly, Lockeye the dev who play the game and raids, has given parses saying that rangers are nothing shy of tier 1 dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, on the other hand, several raiding guilds I know won't even recruit rangers anymore because they feel rangers are inferior dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a topic under combat arts that is 5 pages long with some people saying rangers suck and others saying rangers are really good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In class forums, such as the wizard forums (e.g. <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=27016" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=27016</A>&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> there are ppl who are complaining that rangers are out dpsing them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yet on the ranger forums (this one) there are rangers who say we cannot reach wizard dps. How can we be both worse and better than wizards at the same time (both players claimed to fully understand their class so skill isn't an issue, and I will assume if you are raiding you have good gear).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can anyone give the final word on exactly how good rangers are? Are wizards and necromancers correct that we are outparsing them everytime? Are the the rangers who say we lack dps correct in saying we need more loving?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I'm not addressing utility here because that's a whole other topic)</DIV>

[Tseri]

<DIV>It really is subjective, and a difficult question to answer without straying into the realms of said subjectivity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You will always have people that "know how to play their class" and then you will have the extreme hardcore raiders who know how to play their class because they do it to the extremes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I may not be good DPS in a hardcore guild like Disso or whatever, I [Removed for Content] rock the parse chart every night in my guild.  If I'm not on the top of the raid wide parse then I'm in the top 4, but like anyone here will tell you.  DPS is highly subjective to things like buffs, lag, player skill, and gear.  You can have someone with awesome gear and an awesome group just be a total newb DPS wise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LoreLady]

<div></div>Pulling out yesterdays raids.. - FYI - we dont have adequite hate debuffs for our wizard so she dies alot and is capped around 1.2k dps or she starts dieing.Gore:/shout  Allies: (04:32) 2442306 | 8979.07 [Liliandra-Ice Nova-17160]Jakkel 269524 | 1048.73-swashMortred 266232 | 1091.12-meOptiquest 227102 | 901.20-brigZiper 191621 | 795.11-rangerLiliandra 163359 | 966.62-wizzyContankerus 162145 | 727.11-bruiserLegorn 161831 | 620.04-necro (he died early)Same night - we had to cut it short after the EoF due to people having to go.Zonewide - Lyceum/shout  Allies: (33:04) 20855220 | 10511.70 [Liliandra-Fusion-23954]Legorn 1951420 | 988.06-necroMortred 1847579 | 936.91-meJakkel 1670408 | 850.08-rougeOptiquest 1603569 | 815.24-rougeMystpounder 1423904 | 721.69-bruiserZiper 1415268 | 717.68-rangerKiskem 1359411 | 694.64-conj (she likes to use tankpet and hold back)Contankerus 1323690 | 672.27-bruiserLiliandra 1148568 | 588.41-wizard (she takes care of her kids, and spends alot of time AFK - or dead <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)Flashpoint 1113300 | 561.99- guardianExtinction 1000320 | 507.00-Monk/shout  Allies: (03:23) 2236427 | 11016.88 [Liliandra-Ice Nova-16725] - Essence of fearLegorn 278836 | 1444.75-necroOptiquest 193122 | 1016.43-brigandJakkel 184485 | 946.08-SwashMortred 174804 | 944.89-MeContankerus 139200 | 760.66-BruiserLiliandra 127312 | 680.81-Wizard (dunno what happened here)Ziper 126568 | 676.83-RangerExtinction 121042 | 703.73-Monk<p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>09-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

[xMiLoSiSx]

In raid situations I parse 1700 and up, generally. Depends on the encounter, and what the rest of the raid is feeling.

[Serventof Wrath]

<P>I think the big reasons you see some high end guilds not taking rangers is due to the fact our damage has a harder time scaling to the raid.  There are very few good Long Bows with high DR.  We are tied to the teir arrow we use and the best arrows are the summoned ammo from fabled bows.  Also alot of item procs, group buffs, and group procs only trigger off of a successful melee attack not ranged attacks so game mechanics alone serve to hold us back.</P> <P>I beleive we have the potential to be true T1 dps.  I am not anywhere near fully fabled or fully master.  I have a ragged mix of masters, adept III, and Adept I (in fact just until last week I had longblade and surveilance at app II but finally harvested some spongy loams to get those up).  Yet I'm seeing fights where my dps can spike in the 1.2k - 1.4k range.  I do not have an ammo summoning bow and to be completely honest before they lowered repair costs there weeks where the best arrows i could afford to raid with was feyiron.</P> <P>I've seen the threads saying we can't compete (combat discussion "most useless class to raid with" ) and I've seen the threads (xMiLoSiSx) that show not only can we compete but we can dominate.  All I know for sure is I still really like my ranger.  In my mind I'm doing good dps and my guild doesn't complain that I'm holding them back.</P>

[Judist]

<P>Ranger DPS is much more technical that any other class IMO. With most of our bows the bulk of our damage comes from autoattack. Not all rangers know this, so they just spam combat arts as often as possible and wonder why they arent getting good numbers. Timing is crucial to get the high numbers. Time your CA's so you dont miss one autoattack. </P> <P>Always use poisons, collect haste items, and make getting a bow that summons T8 arrows a priority (if your serious about raiding).</P> <P>Stand in the sweet spot that allows melee arts when possible for extra DPS. </P> <P>Get STR, STR and more STR. I've seen many rangers cap AGI instead which only adds to the power pool and avoidance. STR increases damage both ranged and melee. Cap it.</P> <P>Learn about the other classes buffs, and then dont be shy about asking for those proc buffs in your group. Procs are great to load up on scouts as we are the best when it comes to de-aggro. You can never have too many.</P> <P>Mages are easier to DPS with because melee plays no part. They also have many more choices when it comes to gear with damage procs. I've seen a wizzie where 50% of his gear said "on succesful attack has x%chance  to do x amount of damage. That alot of extra procs not including his own+group buffs.</P> <P>In the end rangers are T1 DPS fo sure, it just takes a more effort. Once you start parsing 1.2k+ without breakin a sweat people with see your worth and from then on it'll only get better. </P>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P>In the end rangers are T1 DPS fo sure, it just takes a more effort. Once you start parsing <FONT color=#ff0000>1.2k+</FONT> without breakin a sweat people with see your worth and from then on it'll only get better. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I hate to keep pointing this out, but 1.2K is NOT good raid DPS when compared to other classes. I've raided with both my Ranger (which is my main and very well geared) and my Brigand (who has a mix of everything, but no where near the quality of my Ranger) and I can tell you quite frankly that the Brigand can easily get to 1.1K DPS. Come to think of it, my Brigand isn't even at 50 AAs yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In our raids, you can usually bet who's going to be on top all the time. Our Wizzy often breaks 2k DPS (yeah, he dies a lot, but at least we know he's working it). One of our Assassins will usually parse between 1.5-1.8K, Our Conjys hover around 1.7K. Brigands usually fall 1.2-1.5K. Come to think of it, Ive seen our Zerker break the 1.2 mark ALOT!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now Im not trying to start a flame, nor am I wanting to turn this into a huge debate again.. We have plenty of those already. I do however want to point out, that if you... as a ranger... are topping your raids with 1.2K DPS, then the rest of the raid needs some work. If the guild is serious about raiding, and is continuously improving the raid, then you'll quickly see that 1.2K DPS falling down the parse to 5-8th place, maybe even further. I love my ranger, I plan on sticking to my ranger, but the dissapointing DPS needs to be fixed! Til that happens. I'll play with my Brigand, and my new Assassin thats up and coming. (Some ppl have ALTitis, I have Scoutitis)</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Tarryn]

<P>The best I've been able to filter out of all the griping (some of it mine) and chest-thumping is that *given ideal gear and good group setup*, rangers are competitive with the highest DPSers out there.  If we lack those things, it hurts us more than similar lacks hurt other DPS classes.  Our DPS ability does not scale well with gear and group composition.</P> <P>That's why you have some players saying we suck, and some players saying we rock--even when both players are similarly skilled.</P> <P>The group composition problem could be resolved by changing some melee only procs to work off ranged as well.  The gear problem could be resolved by adding additional bows (or tweaking current ones) to be competitive with two-handed weapons in a more even progression.  I think if they did both of those things, it would eliminate most of the contention.</P>

[Mirdo]

In my experience our ability to compete relies heavily on access to certain zones and gear.In my old guild, raiding labs and Lyceum but not fully clearing - I had good dps compared to other classes. Switched guild to one with more people fabled and mastered. Once I caught up in gear I still could not match assassins, sumoners and rogues.Then I got the T8 ammo from Ichorstrand and can generally top the Rogues and, situationally, the summoners and assassins.I expect the parses to be even higher if i can get the Venekor bow.That's my experience anyway. Before I had access to the T8 ammo I would argue our DPS was broken. Now I believe it's more an itemisation issue. There need to be more higher DR bows available to non-raiders and bows with decent DR that don't just drop to DT raids, Venekor and cube mobs. Not necessarilly 100+ but certainly longbows at the top end of the 90's.Access to T8 ammo is another big issue. Our two guild Rangers getting Ichorstrand ammo within a week of each other (and the subsequent parsing) has made it very obvious that the ammo brings a DPS increase. There have been many positive comments from our guild as the DPS numbers are posted.Again, this is my experience - I would like to hear from others if they have found differently.Mirdo.<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<DIV>Like Mirdo said it all comes down to gear.  In an average guild rangers can be competive with the gear most can get.  But if you move to a high end guild a ranger has to have one of the bows that summons T8 ammo and the Sarnac bow from Venekor to compete.  With those two items rangers can be if not equal pretty damm close to all the other DPS classes.  Without it they will lag behind and not be able to compete.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zaviur]

Rangers should not be balanced using game items only 2% of the RAIDING Ranger population are able to obtain.

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Mirdo wrote:</P> <P>Then I got the T8 ammo from Ichorstrand and can generally top the Rogues and, situationally, the summoners and assassins.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Im so jealous... I cant seem to get my hands on that bow yet.. Every week it drops CRAP! (well crap is anything I cant use or dont want <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> haha) And the same is true about the war bow. Two weeks running now, chest drops off Venekor have been in un-lootable places. First week we waited two hours (give or take) to get the loot, this past week.. still donno what was in the chest.<BR>

[Beneld]

ive had the looting chest problem myself a bit but thankfully ive rescued it the 3 times its happened with the gnomish spring boots i USED to be able to jump and click the chest to open BUT sony had kindly nerfed that but kept the chest bug THANKS AGAIN SONY<div></div>

[Gailstryd]

I'm waiting for the expansion after EoF and the increase to lvl 80.....should be interesting having to have t8 ammo without a summon for us to do good damage.  Oh toss in the what is it x2 cost to the next tier of ammo and see how many raiding rangers there are left around though I guess the best and luckiest will have bazkul or ichor.  The said predicament could very well put the finishing touchs on crippling the ranger for high end raiding especially if they itemize like crap or provide only 1 or 2 real options for us to break into our rightful dps margins.  Who knows what the effect would be on non raiding rangers even.  Unless they fix ammo issues before t8 (im hoping they do since it'll be like 8 or 10 months after EoF for hte next expansion) I could see rangers in an even worse place.  Now all of this could be made null by the upcoming EoF aa's or even possibly new things we could see with the actual t8 providing expansion, but knowing SOE I'm not taking any chances and plan to have a couple of alts ready and waiting to take over my main chunk of play time.

[Judist]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P>In the end rangers are T1 DPS fo sure, it just takes a more effort. Once you start parsing <FONT color=#ff0000>1.2k+</FONT> without breakin a sweat people with see your worth and from then on it'll only get better. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I hate to keep pointing this out, but 1.2K is NOT good raid DPS when compared to other classes. I've raided with both my Ranger (which is my main and very well geared) and my Brigand (who has a mix of everything, but no where near the quality of my Ranger) and I can tell you quite frankly that the Brigand can easily get to 1.1K DPS. Come to think of it, my Brigand isn't even at 50 AAs yet.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>In our raids, you can usually bet who's going to be on top all the time. Our Wizzy often breaks 2k DPS (yeah, he dies a lot, but at least we know he's working it). One of our Assassins will usually parse between 1.5-1.8K, Our Conjys hover around 1.7K. Brigands usually fall 1.2-1.5K. Come to think of it, Ive seen our Zerker break the 1.2 mark ALOT!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Now Im not trying to start a flame, nor am I wanting to turn this into a huge debate again.. We have plenty of those already. I do however want to point out, that if you... as a ranger... are topping your raids with 1.2K DPS, then the rest of the raid needs some work. If the guild is serious about raiding, and is continuously improving the raid, then you'll quickly see that 1.2K DPS falling down the parse to 5-8th place, maybe even further. I love my ranger, I plan on sticking to my ranger, but the dissapointing DPS needs to be fixed! Til that happens. I'll play with my Brigand, and my new Assassin thats up and coming. (Some ppl have ALTitis, I have Scoutitis)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hehe, you dug too deep into my comment. I said once you start parsing 1.2k+ <U>without breakin a sweat</U>. That means you've finally gotten the strat part down. I also said that once you break the 1.2K+ <U>it only gets better</U>. I've seen a bazillion parses and once rangers start hitting 1.2k on a regular basis they move to the 1.5k+ MUCH more often. Im just suggestion the OP shoot for 1.2k+ so he atleast makes the parse <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> After that its an easy creep to the top.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gailstryder wrote:<BR> I'm waiting for the expansion after EoF and the increase to lvl 80..... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It was my understanding the level cap wasn't being increased with EoF did this get changed ?  I know they are adding new AA trees but I'm almost positive the level cap is staying at 70.</P> <P> </P>

[Dojoc]

<blockquote><hr>Crychtonn schrieb:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Gailstryder wrote:I'm waiting for the expansion after EoF and the increase to lvl 80.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was my understanding the level cap wasn't being increased with EoF did this get changed ?  I know they are adding new AA trees but I'm almost positive the level cap is staying at 70.</P><P> </P><hr></blockquote>lvl cap will stay at 70 with EoF ... i think he means the next expansion after EoF<p>Nachricht bearbeitet von Dojocan am <span class=date_text>09-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:35 AM</span>

[LoreLady]

Beatin guts /completly agree...1.2k is a good ranger raid basis.. Unfortunatly many classes will start jumping up in leaps and bounds. The parsings I showed up there were a bad example (due to rouges bein new - no new weaps) - and no good groupsetup for a wizzie and no necro..And also - our necro/conj/wizzie holds back. I dont. Something is wrong with that picture.

[Asismii]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>We did DT last night overall raid parse: raid dps =~ 8900 dps 1- me  8965482 dmg @ 944.73 dps (10% raid dmg) 2- brig 6681667 dmg @ 704.07 dps (8% raid dmg) 3- assassin 6435499 dmg @ 678.13 dps (8% raid dmg) 4- conj 6164965 dmg @ 649.63 dps (7% raid dmg) and so on from there... our guild was lacking caster dps that night, but the other parses arent much different from that... and yes i know those dps numbers arent high, but they arent that bad compared to the raid dps as a whole... and we have killed tarinax, so we can't be that [Removed for Content] <div></div> oh, i would also like to mention i have yet have a bow that summons t8 arrows to drop for me /cry<p>Message Edited by Asismii on <span class=date_text>09-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:27 AM</span>

[Carna]

<P>So much horsecrap.</P> <P>1.2k dps is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good for the vast bulk of the game. Those who posture like 2k dps should be some kind of norm are talking out their [Removed for Content].</P>

[LoreLady]

Asiss - I should show ya parsings from our guild assassin whos adept 3'd.. I think you would be rather surprised.And - we dont take that as the norm we take that as highest potential.. We have seen wizards with 1.6k dps zonewide - we have seen rangers with 1.2k dps zonewide - we have seen assassins 1.8k zonewide and we have seen warlocks 1k dps zonewide. We also have summoners 1.8k zonewide - and brigs/swash 1.5k zonewide parses floating around.

[Asismii]

Mort: i dont doubt you, i myself have had zonewides at almost 1400 before, it has a lot to do with the zone,  that parse was DT.. im sure it would have been much different if it were another zone <div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <P>So much horsecrap.</P> <P>1.2k dps is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good for the vast bulk of the game. Those who posture like 2k dps should be some kind of norm are talking out their [Removed for Content].</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>1.2K DPS is not good raid DPS. Period! Its a good place to start out, sure, but when other classes (see above post) start out DPSing you, or are even in the same ballpark with you, then theres an issue. The question was.. How good is ranger dps compared to the rest of the raid. Well Im sorry, but I firmly believe I play my ranger [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well. However, Im not going to take a blind eye to the fact that I can and sometimes do get beaten by Rogues, Summoners, occassionally a zerker and sometimes too darn close to a brawler. I dont recall anyone saying we wanted 2k raid dps... I know that I mentioned one of our wizzys is around there often (and sometimes as high as 3k) but he also pays for that by dying.</P> <P>So again, here we have a situation question.. How good is ranger dps compared to the rest of the raid. Well.. the truth of the matter will be, it depends on how well everyone can play, how well geared they are, how the groups get set up... But from a high end perspective, overall ranger DPS is lacking behind alot of the raid.</P>

[Carna]

<DIV>You can say period as much as you want. You can throw in elipses and semi-colons, for the bulk of the playerbase if you can consistenly pull 1.2k dps you're doing well.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>But from a high end perspective</FONT></STRONG>, overall ranger DPS is lacking behind alot of the raid.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Which is a very narrow perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <P>I hate to keep pointing this out, <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>but 1.2K is NOT good raid DPS when compared to other classes</STRONG></FONT>.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That is a silly assertion to make. If the other classes are all doing 900dps then obviously it'd be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good compared with the other classes. By all means tell us what happening in your guild and what your experience is, but quit telling us what's happing in front of us and moreso what couldn't possibly be happening in front of us when we play the game based upon what happens in your guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happens in my guild is while our Rangers have to put up with an assortment of classes jumping past them on any given fight because they are consistently parsing toward or at the top of the list they come out top of the parse for the night. That's what's happening in my guild. We're a long way from being spectacular, but we raid 4 times a week and are raiding DT. We're a reasonable example of a middle of the road bunch of people in a guild, and our Rangers are valued and perform well as a dps class. They churn out good numbers <EM>consistently</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's what happens in my guild, fullstop, period, underscore, exclamation-mark.<BR><BR><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00>However, Im not going to take a blind eye to the fact that I can and sometimes do get beaten by Rogues, Summoners, occassionally a zerker and sometimes too darn close to a brawler.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And therein lies the problem.... there is no problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can sometimes get beaten by a Rogues or a Summoners..... Occasionally you get beaten by a Zerker, and you don't like the fact that Brawlers come close sometimes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh the horror.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that last quote probably answers the OP, TimidMouse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's was (and I suppose still is) a Brigand over in the forum from a very well known high end guild (well known across multiple games), who never tired of bragging that he parses 1.9k. Every chance he got "I parse 1.9k, Brigands rock!". This naturally made a lot of Brigands nervous. So one of the Rogues who does a lot of parsing in that forum to break down CA stats asked him for a raid log so that he could have a look at his damage composition... turns out he was spiking 1.5k and drawing a mean average of 1.1k over the course of the whole raid. Which is very good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I said. So much horsecrap.<BR></DIV> <DIV>There are issues with Rangers. Hopefully the issue of ammo will be sorted in the next expansion. I do think that Rangers need a nudge more damage to make their position more secure. Increasingly however people are starting to stand up and question some of the more dire assertions being made.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's also a desperate need for people to stop bandying about the numbers that they and others spike. Wizards push 3k... no they dont. Yes a top notch Wizard can produce that number. No that does not mean that Wizards are pushing 3k. It's highly misleading. For many raids what LoreLady describes is far more the norm. If the Wizard farts too loudly the mob pancakes him.</DIV>

[TerriBlades]

<P><BR>Are you mental? There is a problem...  And if you cant see that, Im sorry.  Im very happy that the rangers in your guild do well and parse near the top, but that only means that A. The players in your guild are slacken or B. You dont have any Summoners, Assassins, or Rogues. I find the last one  too hard to believe.  Unless of course you mean 6th-10th, which techincally speaking, IS still at the top when you figure that theres 24 ppl at a raid. Now quit trying to cloud the issue, as I stated in my last post, Raid DPS is going to be situational. What maybe be good DPS in one guild, could very well be subpar in another. I thought I made that clear the last time, but I guess not.</P> <P>Are Rangers bad DPS?? No, but we certainly are sub-par to all other T1 DPS classes. Thats a well known fact.</P>

[Katsugen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <P>In raid situations I parse 1700 and up, generally. Depends on the encounter, and what the rest of the raid is feeling.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=left><BR>Is this a zone wide number? or your guestimate. I often find when I merge all the parses at the end of the night the numbers are not quite as high as one would think. If this is truely zone wide I think this is what we need to see. If you can post us a zone wide with numbers like that I think most will be convinced we scale properly.</P> <P align=left>As to wizards complaining about thier dps, I would argue they need better agro control. For the most part when our agro control is optimized wizzy's can put up some serious numbers.</P> <P align=left>As for some of the other parses posted I would argue that at that your zone wide raid dps might be too low to show the scaling issue. Some classes seem to scale better than others, like summoners for example, SOE tries to keep them all scaling in a linear fashion but it just doesn't always happen.</P> <P align=left>The problem is I haven't seen any zone wide parses that are showing 20k raid dps with 7-8 classes near 2k and rangers being near the top of that list. If anyone would like to post something like that, I think it's what our community needs to see. The proof is in the pudding...Mmmmm pudding.</P> <P align=left>-Katsugen</P> <P> </P>

[Asismii]

<blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div><p>         Well.. the truth of the matter will be, it depends on how well everyone can play, how well geared they are, how the groups get set up... </p><hr></blockquote> exactly, but not even the gear so much as the other two things imho.. i was doing great dps even before i got the gear i have now<div></div>

[Jay]

<P>Sweet, here we go again. Kudos to whomever started this ball rolling, we actually had a week or two of relatively calm interaction there. Thank goodness we're back to normal, I was starting to get worried! </P>

[Deml]

One time, at Ranger camp...I shot a kerran with my bow.

[Gailstryd]

So that's who that belongs too -_-.   I'll have you know Demlar it is very hard to use an inflatable donut for my comfort when i keep shredding the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing with my claws!@

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <p>Sweet, here we go again. Kudos to whomever started this ball rolling, we actually had a week or two of relatively calm interaction there. Thank goodness we're back to normal, I was starting to get worried! </p><hr></blockquote>EDIT: Most of the below is a joke. There's nothing useful in it, period. It was meant as <b>humor, </b>nothing more. If you'd rather not deal with humor in this thread, just skip it.<span>:smileyvery-happy:   I'm sorry but I have to laugh...and Kaeros you know better than most what the Ranger forums have been through. In fact I was starting to wonder when the latest DPS thread was going to show up:Uber Raid Ranger 1: We're high DPS. Well, sort of. You see, it all has to do with...Uber Raid Ranger 2: No we're not. I have a degree in advanced mathematics just the same as you. And my HAL9000 Mega Parser says...Uber Raid Ranger 1: I SAID we are "sort of" high end DPS. Kind of. Even though at T1 DPS, situationally, it can vary to T2-T3 DPS depending on the class composition according to the Official RaidStrat guide written by...New Uber Ranger: BOTH of you are wrong. I solo every day with no problems. Why, just the other day I was pulling the Mob O' Painful Death found in...(both Raid Rangers): SHUT UP! We are talking about raids here...HIGH END raids that is...Uber Raid Ranger 2: Okay back to reality. The truth is, even though everyone else thinks we are just fine, my ParsoMatic uber parser has combobulated the various formulaic algorithms which produce the equated results that show we just can't handle uber raiding when competing with Uber Raid Assassin 1, the jerk. In fact...Uber Raid Ranger 1: You are not taking into account the various OTHER situational factors dude...you are using formulaic algorithms, but my ParsoMatic 2 couples those with...New Uber Ranger 1: Hello? I'm still here?Uber Raid Ranger 2: I am SO factoring in situational factors. Just because you've studied at the EQ2 Academy of Sub-Class Raid Compositions doesn't mean...Uber Raid Ranger 1: I don't know what you're talking about. Our strat for the 6 pronged attack raid we did on the obscure game zone the Crags O' Pain with the Level 75 Raid Mob Of Smackdown was to develop the best HAL9000 Mega Parsing available while...I wish I could go on...but this is just a sample...<span>:smileywink:</span></span></div><p>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <span class=date_text>09-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:09 PM</span>

[Deml]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KnightOfTheWord wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Sweet, here we go again. Kudos to whomever started this ball rolling, we actually had a week or two of relatively calm interaction there. Thank goodness we're back to normal, I was starting to get worried! </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:   I'm sorry but I have to laugh...and Kaeros you know better than most what the Ranger forums have been through. In fact I was starting to wonder when the latest DPS thread was going to show up:<BR><BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: We're high DPS. Well, sort of. You see, it all has to do with...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: No we're not. I have a degree in advanced mathematics just the same as you. And my HAL9000 Mega Parser says...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: I SAID we are "sort of" high end DPS. Kind of. Even though at T1 DPS, situationally, it can vary to T2-T3 DPS depending on the class composition according to the Official RaidStrat guide written by...<BR>New Uber Ranger: BOTH of you are wrong. I solo every day with no problems. Why, just the other day I was pulling the Mob O' Painful Death found in...<BR>(both Raid Rangers): SHUT UP! We are talking about raids here...HIGH END raids that is...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: Okay back to reality. The truth is, even though everyone else thinks we are just fine, my ParsoMatic uber parser has combobulated the various formulaic algorithms which produce the equated results that show we just can't handle uber raiding when competing with Uber Raid Assassin 1, the jerk. In fact...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: You are not taking into account the various OTHER situational factors dude...you are using formulaic algorithms, but my ParsoMatic 2 couples those with...<BR>New Uber Ranger 1: Hello? I'm still here?<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: I am SO factoring in situational factors. Just because you've studied at the EQ2 Academy of Sub-Class Raid Compositions doesn't mean...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: I don't know what you're talking about. Our strat for the 6 pronged attack raid we did on the obscure game zone the Crags O' Pain with the Level 75 Raid Mob Of Smackdown was to develop the best HAL9000 Mega Parsing available while...<BR><BR>I wish I could go on...but this is just a sample...<SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Anyone else disturbed by the fact they not only read all of that but it actually made sense to them, or is it just me?  :smileytongue:

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demlar wrote:<BR> <BR>Anyone else disturbed by the fact they not only read all of that but it actually made sense to them, or is it just me?  :smileytongue:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was actually thinking when I got to the bottom wow there is 3 minutes of my life I will never get back.  Unfortunatly when I read your post i reskimmed the first one now up to 4.5 minutes of life gone.....<BR>

[Jayad]

<DIV>I'm just apathetic about it all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's worse:  not being able to reach top tier DPS, or requiring *two* particular bows (of which there are only 4) off some of the hardest mobs in the game to reach it?  And not having any alternatives?  And needing max haste and dps buffs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But don't worry, we're fine... really...</DIV>

[Mirdo]

I see nothing wrong with debate and even argument regarding our DPS. Some interesting points can sometimes come out of these dabates and arguments. Maybe a real bug will be found or a decent technique/trick  will propogated through the community for those that are interested.Anyway, one thing that might help the debates is if people state whether they are talking about zonewide parsings or single target - the two are very different beasts.Single target, including named, I can top 1.6 with my current setup. AoE I can top 2k. BUT when you apply this to a raidzone it can drop significantly due to arts not refeshing between pulls etc. A good example is back to back AoE encounters - Enc 1 the mobs get treated to both Aoe's. For Enc 2 - Rain will not be available so I get a lower parse on the enc.Also, zone is important. F Ex. DT trash mobs tend to have very low health and there are a number of heroics in there that can skew a parse.Mirdo. <div></div>

[guiddian2]

<DIV>actually our dps is as good as the player is, the right combination of buffs and the debuffs in the raid, as i said if u are hittting beneath 1k in any raid unless all ur dps sucks (meaning the combine dps of ur mages rogues blah blah) and drags the mob killing time to ridiculous times like 2 mins for 1 mob. Parsers show how fast a mob is taken down for example dt has a lot of trash mobs that should be heroic cause their hp is low, in those i can hit 2k easy but because of the Hp count, in named mobs it varies as well due to minimal losses through the fight.  A few tips to achieve ur max dps </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) All my hotbars are set up by the time it takes to redo a skill (cast timer) </DIV> <DIV>2) Matching ur biggest hitters with the dispatch of ur brigand</DIV> <DIV>3) using ur own debuffs (debitalizating arrow , vines and Cover Fire<real good spell against monk, bruiser mobs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i'll post my hotbars tomorrow is too late as it is night all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by guiddian2 on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Katsugen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <P>In raid situations I parse 1700 and up, generally. Depends on the encounter, and what the rest of the raid is feeling.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=left><BR>Is this a zone wide number? or your guestimate. I often find when I merge all the parses at the end of the night the numbers are not quite as high as one would think. If this is truely zone wide I think this is what we need to see. If you can post us a zone wide with numbers like that I think most will be convinced we scale properly.</P> <P align=left>As to wizards complaining about thier dps, I would argue they need better agro control. For the most part when our agro control is optimized wizzy's can put up some serious numbers.</P> <P align=left>As for some of the other parses posted I would argue that at that your zone wide raid dps might be too low to show the scaling issue. Some classes seem to scale better than others, like summoners for example, SOE tries to keep them all scaling in a linear fashion but it just doesn't always happen.</P> <P align=left>The problem is I haven't seen any zone wide parses that are showing 20k raid dps with 7-8 classes near 2k and rangers being near the top of that list. If anyone would like to post something like that, I think it's what our community needs to see. The proof is in the pudding...Mmmmm pudding.</P> <P align=left>-Katsugen</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've shown named parses of me parsing 2k+ over 1:30. I promptly got accused of 150 AA, or cheating.<BR></P>

[Katsugen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Katsugen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <P>In raid situations I parse 1700 and up, generally. Depends on the encounter, and what the rest of the raid is feeling.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=left><BR>Is this a zone wide number? or your guestimate. I often find when I merge all the parses at the end of the night the numbers are not quite as high as one would think. If this is truely zone wide I think this is what we need to see. If you can post us a zone wide with numbers like that I think most will be convinced we scale properly.</P> <P align=left>As to wizards complaining about thier dps, I would argue they need better agro control. For the most part when our agro control is optimized wizzy's can put up some serious numbers.</P> <P align=left>As for some of the other parses posted I would argue that at that your zone wide raid dps might be too low to show the scaling issue. Some classes seem to scale better than others, like summoners for example, SOE tries to keep them all scaling in a linear fashion but it just doesn't always happen.</P> <P align=left>The problem is I haven't seen any zone wide parses that are showing 20k raid dps with 7-8 classes near 2k and rangers being near the top of that list. If anyone would like to post something like that, I think it's what our community needs to see. The proof is in the pudding...Mmmmm pudding.</P> <P align=left>-Katsugen</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've shown named parses of me parsing 2k+ over 1:30. I promptly got accused of 150 AA, or cheating.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes I recall, and I also remember myself mentioning that other than a few classes that should have been up there with you, they looked to be realistic numbers to me. I just usually spend more time looking at zone wide data, as I believe it to be a much better representation of dps, across multiple situations. So I was just wondering if when you said 1700, you ment zone wide or for particular fights. </P> <P>-Katsugen</P>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Zaviur wrote:Rangers should not be balanced using game items only 2% of the RAIDING Ranger population are able to obtain.<hr></blockquote>Totally agree with this.The sad fact is that the sort of bows needed to actually place us where we should be are stupidly difficult to obtain, when a Assasin can simply do regular instances and get the equipment they need to do fantastic dps.

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demlar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KnightOfTheWord wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>Sweet, here we go again. Kudos to whomever started this ball rolling, we actually had a week or two of relatively calm interaction there. Thank goodness we're back to normal, I was starting to get worried! </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:   I'm sorry but I have to laugh...and Kaeros you know better than most what the Ranger forums have been through. In fact I was starting to wonder when the latest DPS thread was going to show up:<BR><BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: We're high DPS. Well, sort of. You see, it all has to do with...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: No we're not. I have a degree in advanced mathematics just the same as you. And my HAL9000 Mega Parser says...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: I SAID we are "sort of" high end DPS. Kind of. Even though at T1 DPS, situationally, it can vary to T2-T3 DPS depending on the class composition according to the Official RaidStrat guide written by...<BR>New Uber Ranger: BOTH of you are wrong. I solo every day with no problems. Why, just the other day I was pulling the Mob O' Painful Death found in...<BR>(both Raid Rangers): SHUT UP! We are talking about raids here...HIGH END raids that is...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: Okay back to reality. The truth is, even though everyone else thinks we are just fine, my ParsoMatic uber parser has combobulated the various formulaic algorithms which produce the equated results that show we just can't handle uber raiding when competing with Uber Raid Assassin 1, the jerk. In fact...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: You are not taking into account the various OTHER situational factors dude...you are using formulaic algorithms, but my ParsoMatic 2 couples those with...<BR>New Uber Ranger 1: Hello? I'm still here?<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: I am SO factoring in situational factors. Just because you've studied at the EQ2 Academy of Sub-Class Raid Compositions doesn't mean...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: I don't know what you're talking about. Our strat for the 6 pronged attack raid we did on the obscure game zone the Crags O' Pain with the Level 75 Raid Mob Of Smackdown was to develop the best HAL9000 Mega Parsing available while...<BR><BR>I wish I could go on...but this is just a sample...<SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Anyone else disturbed by the fact they not only read all of that but it actually made sense to them, or is it just me?  :smileytongue:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>ROFL no... I was just trying to figure out where I can download the Hal9000 Parse-o-Matic and searching Ogaming for tips on that six-pronged raid strat. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KnightOfTheWord wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>EDIT: Most of the below is a joke. There's nothing useful in it, period. It was meant as <B>humor, </B>nothing more. If you'd rather not deal with humor in this thread, just skip it.<BR><BR><BR><SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:   I'm sorry but I have to laugh...and Kaeros you know better than most what the Ranger forums have been through. In fact I was starting to wonder when the latest DPS thread was going to show up:<BR><BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: We're high DPS. Well, sort of. You see, it all has to do with...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: No we're not. I have a degree in advanced mathematics just the same as you. And my HAL9000 Mega Parser says...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: I SAID we are "sort of" high end DPS. Kind of. Even though at T1 DPS, situationally, it can vary to T2-T3 DPS depending on the class composition according to the Official RaidStrat guide written by...<BR>New Uber Ranger: BOTH of you are wrong. I solo every day with no problems. Why, just the other day I was pulling the Mob O' Painful Death found in...<BR>(both Raid Rangers): SHUT UP! We are talking about raids here...HIGH END raids that is...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: Okay back to reality. The truth is, even though everyone else thinks we are just fine, my ParsoMatic uber parser has combobulated the various formulaic algorithms which produce the equated results that show we just can't handle uber raiding when competing with Uber Raid Assassin 1, the jerk. In fact...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: You are not taking into account the various OTHER situational factors dude...you are using formulaic algorithms, but my ParsoMatic 2 couples those with...<BR>New Uber Ranger 1: Hello? I'm still here?<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 2: I am SO factoring in situational factors. Just because you've studied at the EQ2 Academy of Sub-Class Raid Compositions doesn't mean...<BR>Uber Raid Ranger 1: I don't know what you're talking about. Our strat for the 6 pronged attack raid we did on the obscure game zone the Crags O' Pain with the Level 75 Raid Mob Of Smackdown was to develop the best HAL9000 Mega Parsing available while...<BR><BR>I wish I could go on...but this is just a sample...<SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <SPAN class=date_text>09-18-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:09 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If I was a betting man, Uber Raid Ranger 2 wears tights and a Bard class hat.<BR>

[Mirdo]

Looking more like the NGD every day in here - but I consider that a bad thing.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR>Looking more like the NGD every day in here - but I consider that a bad thing.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I'll have to take your word for that.  I'd rather lick a cheese grater until I had enough tongue for a salad than visit the NGD forums.  Besides, most Rangers are fun to hang with.  We have a hard time starying on topic, but the information is there if you take the time to look.  I think we pass more useful information than any other class forum.  And, I don't think it's such a bad thing to have fun.</P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Mirdo wrote:Looking more like the NGD every day in here - but I consider that a bad thing. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I'll have to take your word for that.  I'd rather lick a cheese grater until I had enough tongue for a salad than visit the NGD forums.  Besides, most Rangers are fun to hang with.  We have a hard time starying on topic, but the information is there if you take the time to look.  I think we pass more useful information than any other class forum.  And, I don't think it's such a bad thing to have fun.</p><hr></blockquote><b><font size="7">OW</font></b><font size="7"><font size="3">That HURT just READING it</font></font></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR>Looking more like the NGD every day in here - but I consider that a bad thing.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/shrug</P> <P>No one's forcing you to read anything here, or participate at all if you don't enjoy the interaction.</P> <P>I bail on these forums for weeks at a time when all that's happening is a lot of [Removed for Content] matches and useless arguments about DPS, assassins, nerfs, birds, aggro, bows, etc. If there's any real information or interesting discussions, I read those and avoid the rest of the whining. Maybe you should do the same when it comes to posts / threads that are just pointless fun? I guess that does get frustrating when a bunch of meaningless posts end up in an otherwise informative thread, but personally I wouldn't enjoy a forum that was all business, all the time. But that's just me, and obviously our opinions differ on that point. </P>

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR>Looking more like the NGD every day in here - but I consider that a bad thing.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/shrug</P> <P>No one's forcing you to read anything here, or participate at all if you don't enjoy the interaction.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I was participating - and so were others in a discussion regarding DPS. That discussion may have devolved into flames / rants at times but they were still relatively on track.</P> <P>I certainly try not to participate in threads here that don't interest me - but i guess, like most, I succumb every now and then and can't help posting cirticism or stupidity where it's not warranted or welcome. I do think the derailments in this thread weren't really necessary and where a discussion remains relatively civil and moves forward I think they shouldn't occur.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[Rahmn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote:<BR> <P>Ranger DPS is much more technical that any other class IMO. With most of our bows the bulk of our damage comes from autoattack. Not all rangers know this, so they just spam combat arts as often as possible and wonder why they arent getting good numbers. Timing is crucial to get the high numbers. Time your CA's so you dont miss one autoattack. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is a misunderstanding of how autoattack works.  Autoattack doesnt have a cast time, so it doesn't need space between CA's to work, it just happens every x amount of seconds.<BR>

[Mirdo]

BeatinGuts wrote: <p>Ranger DPS is much more technical that any other class IMO. With most of our bows the bulk of our damage comes from autoattack. Not all rangers know this, so they just spam combat arts as often as possible and wonder why they arent getting good numbers. Timing is crucial to get the high numbers. Time your CA's so you dont miss one autoattack. </p> <hr> That is a misunderstanding of how autoattack works.  Autoattack doesnt have a cast time, so it doesn't need space between CA's to work, it just happens every x amount of seconds.Argh, messed up the post - sorry but here goes for a second attempt:<font color="#33cc00"></font><font color="#33cc00">While it's true you don't have to pause between CA's for autoattack to fire, one of the points the OP was making is that you should try and avoid using long cast arts or sequences just before your next autoattack is due to fire - or at least time them to start as soon as the the previous Autoattack has completed. By not disrupting autoattacks with CA's you fit more in per fight and your DPS increases. Obviously, some delays are unavoidable - F Ex. Snipers shot will cut into most autoattcks - with some bows you might actually lose a whole autoattack or two if you start snipers just as an autoatack was due to fire.Mirdo.</font><div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Mirdo on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:25 PM</span>

[Harzel]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>BeatinGuts wrote:<div></div> <p> Time your CA's so you dont miss one autoattack. </p><hr></blockquote>Beatin - Are you referring to the fact that melee CAs turn off ranged auto-attack, or do you mean that even ranged CAs can cause me to miss a ranged auto-attack?  (If so, that would be really useful to know...)Thanks.<i><b><font color="#339900">H.</font></b></i><font color="#3366cc">Edit: Hmm, ok, perhaps Mirdo has answered my question.  So now let me reveal myself as a total noob --- what is the best way to tell when ranged autoattack goes off?  Is there some visual cue I am missing?</font></div><p>Message Edited by Harzel on <span class=date_text>09-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 AM</span>

[Gailstryd]

<DIV>Harzel, set up a chat window or add a new tab to your current hit miss combat window.  In this new window/tab set it to jsut show your hits and crits and nothing else, maybe your misses too hehe.  Now when you are in combat watch that window for your auto attack to go off you'll get use to it pretty quick.  After you've gotten use to the fairly stagnant hand full of numbers that are your ranged auto attack hits you'll get a good feel for when they can go off and if you are missing any.  I've gotten it down to know that for hte most part I can get off 2 ca's between my auto attack and I usually only have to look at my window once or twice to get my bearings as to when it's firing off.</DIV>