Shouldn't Rangers have a role in pulling for the group? [Archive]

RedLujan

09-06-2006, 06:42 PM

Its something that bugged me from the first time I started grouping with my Ranger. I had all this potential to damage at range, but when the group pulled a target the tank did the real ranged pull (if he had a bow). At the time I didn't understand why, there was no sense to it, but quickly the model of agro dynamics dawned on me and I accepted my place (I only do ranged damage when the mob is right in the tanks face????) . It still doesn't make game sense though, shouldn't the archer being doing some REAL work while the enemy rushes the 50 yards or so to close with our merry band?In some ways the group tactics seem a bit two dimentional. Tanks and healers have great defined and essential group roles, while most of the rest of us are lumped together as DPS. Shouldn't rangers with their very distict combat style bring something unique to the group as well?Here's an idea, hopefully someone can improve on it, or make it fly, cos I want it for Xmas <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />How about they give us and ability to allow us to fire on a distant target whithout generating hate, or firing on the target and generating a small amount of hate (or just attention) for the tank and not ourselves? The game logic would be that we fire from behind the tank at the distant mob, using our cunning ranger skills to draw the mob onto the tank. The detail could work a bit like this : cast an effect on tank that lets us fire CAs at a mob without generating hate for ourselves, while pulling mob onto the tank. Effect lasts UNTIL the mob strikes the tank - then effect is cancelled. Then we get to blast away at the charging enemy, as they do in the movies!I know that body pulls are all the rage now, but don't see why Rangers shouldn't be used as a way around social agro in some situations (I gather from some posts they can already, with surviel).It would be great to come up with something that gave more meaning to the role of Rangers in groups/raids, other than DPS which many people complain is now lacking... If this idea wont work, maybe there could be something else?By the way I love playing my Ranger, both solo and in groups. This just bugs me a bit, and I'd like a ranged role that had more meaning without unbalencing the game. I just though letting us do our stuff in the 2-3 seconds while the mob charged in wouldn't unbalence the game at all, and might add something?<div></div>

NightrunnerX

09-06-2006, 06:49 PM

Yes it is true that Tanks do most of the pulling for the group. Even more so now since most mobs were given social aggro. However if you are in a safe area, a Ranger can pull extremely well with his Trick Shot CA starting at lvl 24, which progresses into Confounding Arrow at lvl 66. This ability will generate 30% Hate on the next target who damages the mob. So the Ranger fires the arrow, thus pulling the mob and then the tank smacks it, generating additional hate. The problem arrises in that many group members dont pay attention and just start waylaying the mob as soon as its running over. In order for the CA to be useful, the group has to allow the tank to get the first hit in.

AdiX__Styxx__

09-06-2006, 06:51 PM

what lvl is yer ranger? since rangers do have a ranged attack like this i believe the first version of this is called trickshot it works like this: Ranger shoots mob ---> CA drops a 10 sec enchantment on mob which gives the first person to hit the mob 30% more hate for every action during those 10 secs -----> tank hits mob first he gets agroe bonus for 10 secs. Problem with this is social mobs will join the fun and kick yer sry [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]! Not sure if the surveil trick still works havent used it in a long time i guess i should try it sometime to not have to clear the whole lot around the named mobs to save my 10 secs of killing em all! I do use it during raids occasionally tho but only if the raidtank is having trouble holding agroe on the pull (aka stunning mobs / stifling mobs) so we tell the dps to lay off till the enchantment has been applied to the MT! Ya do have the typical ranger attitude tho dont lose that its yer lifeline to keep having fun with this class!

AdiX__Styxx__

09-06-2006, 06:51 PM

bleh ya beat me too it haha

TaleraRis

09-06-2006, 07:07 PM

Yeah, this has always been weird for me coming from EQ1 and rangers and bards were the uber supremo pullers.

Prandtl

09-06-2006, 07:40 PM

On one of the guild writ raids over the weekend the raid leader had me and another ranger alternating pulling with survail. We weren't sure if the mobs were social aggro or not and they we too tight for the tank to body pull, so we plucked them out one at a time like ripe grapes :smileyvery-happy: It seemed to work pretty well, but I still don't know if the mobs were social or if we were just lucky

RedLujan

09-06-2006, 07:44 PM

<div></div>Thanks for the Trick Shot suggestions.I'm aware if this line, but interpreted its usage differently. This is what Tick Arrow says (my version of this line) :* Inflicts 227-378 ranged damage on target.* On a successful melee attack this will cast Blamed on target of attack. Lasts for 10 seconds. * Increase Hate Gain of target by 30%.I interpreted this as meaning that hate would be increased for the target of the MOB. So whoever the MOB hits next, will have increased hate? So I thought the purpose was to fire Trick Shot at the MOB when its already hitting the tank, so the tank is the next melee target, and gains hate? Am I reading this all wrong?I'm afraid I find the wordng of Trick Shot confusing, and I'm pretty sure that changed it a while back, but still don't find it clear.I know if I cast this before the MOB is engaged with the tank, I have a good chance of pulling agro myself, which makes everyone grumpy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Specially if any procs fire.Regarding my Xmas present of having a role as a pulling machine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I'm just now happy with this, even if it works as you suggest. If it is intended to help me pull for the tank, maybe they need to make some changes. Like no hate for the ranger, and make it easier/smoother for the tank to recieve the agro at the end.Thanks for the suggestions though, and I'll experiment with Trick Shot a bit more. Any more tips regarding its usage/meaning would be much appreciated.I do think Rangers should be the masters of ranged pulling, and glad some of you agree!<div></div>

Jay

09-06-2006, 09:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedLujan wrote: Thanks for the Trick Shot suggestions. I'm aware if this line, but interpreted its usage differently. This is what Tick Arrow says (my version of this line) : * Inflicts 227-378 ranged damage on target. * On a successful melee attack this will cast Blamed on target of attack. Lasts for 10 seconds. * Increase Hate Gain of target by 30%. I interpreted this as meaning that hate would be increased for the target of the MOB. So whoever the MOB hits next, will have increased hate? So I thought the purpose was to fire Trick Shot at the MOB when its already hitting the tank, so the tank is the next melee target, and gains hate? Am I reading this all wrong? I'm afraid I find the wordng of Trick Shot confusing, and I'm pretty sure that changed it a while back, but still don't find it clear. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> It's confused a lot of ppl for a long time. Why do you think the final ability is called Confounding Arrow? Okay, sorry, bad joke. Basically my understanding is that it's safe to pull with this IF the tank is the next to engage and STAY engaged. If your wizzy jumps the gun and starts a nukefest within the first 10 seconds, yeah, there might be some problems. As with all my posts, there is the disclaimer that YMMV b/c I may be making this all up.

Katsugen

09-06-2006, 09:31 PM

Frankly unless we get some sort of tsunami skill like monks we will never become a pulling utility. I do get put to some use on some encounters that require miracle arrow, but nothing thats a raid stopper. As for Confounding Arrow, I was also under the impression the Blame was placed on the mob and which ever player the mob was attacking for that short duration would inherit the additional hate. - Katsugen

Jayad

09-06-2006, 10:15 PM

Confounding arrow increases the hate gain of the next *target of the mobs attacks*. In other words, whatever the mob attacks next successfully will gain additional hate. This is good if it's your tank, bad if it's not. The reason there are no pullers is very simple: current pull mechanics make anything but a body pull very risky. But beyond that, rangers don't have any, well, "range" over any other types. The maximum pulling ability in terms of distance is about the same everywhere. I don't think SOE would introduce any kind of "safe pull" skill. It would sidestep their desired progression through dungeons and such. (Imagine cherry picking nameds while avoiding half of the fights) Would it be nice? Sure, but it will never be done. With the reduction of range of Surveil it's not as useful as it once was, and you're always playing with fire on those. Even body pulls aren't safe.

BSbon

09-06-2006, 10:29 PM

i pull with my ranger all the time. the trick shot line is great for pulling mobs where you dont have line of sight and i can pull with archery auto attack from a greater distance than our pally can nuke. it workes well for pulling non social mobs out of a cluster of aggro mobs.

Jay

09-07-2006, 01:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xney wrote: I don't think SOE would introduce any kind of "safe pull" skill. It would sidestep their desired progression through dungeons and such. (Imagine cherry picking nameds while avoiding half of the fights) Would it be nice? Sure, but it will never be done. With the reduction of range of Surveil it's not as useful as it once was, and you're always playing with fire on those. Even body pulls aren't safe. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The sorta-kinda-good news is that Surveillance does seem to avoid social aggro. That can be a nice ranger-pull skill, but unfortunately you don't get it til 70. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Jayad

09-07-2006, 01:28 AM

It does most of the time, but it's not entirely safe either. It can be resisted and sometimes flat out doesn't work. It's also only 35m range and line of sight, which stops most of the best times you'd want to use it. And assassins also get it and have a better version due to their hate transfer.

Tseri

09-07-2006, 01:51 AM

Surveillance doesn't pull social agro, every other lower level version does. As for Trick shot/Confounding arrow. They changed the wording if you take a look at it now. "Ranged attack the enrages the target, causing the next person it attacks to generate much more hate for a short duration." You pull with confounding arrow you get blamed cast on you. If the mob is targetting someone else already then blamed will be cast on them.

Gerdos

09-07-2006, 07:40 AM

<DIV>Surveillance can have social agro ... its dependent on the social mobs pathing line when you activate it. Timing is still important, or you can find yourself pulling additional mobs in some areas. Surveillance used to be great at 50m, our best ranged CA pull, but the recent drop to 35m drops it from A+, to A- pull. Another reason why Surveillance is popular, is that it doesnt really generate agro points, so any other player that uses any form of attack, taunt, debuff ... will easily peel the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Amazing Shot, wonderful CA. The only CA in game that allows you to pull targets without line of sight, and arent resticted by the vertical axis (eg. pet pulls). Deathtoll and Nizarra are good zones to use it, as well as some other specific fights, (eg. Talendor). Makes certain encounters that might have some challenge to them, rather easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Confusing Arrow ... used to be a great CA to use on the pull, as you could use it, then the tank would peel the mob from you with a hit, thus gaining 10secs of 80% additional agro. They changed this awhile ago, making this obsolete as a CA for pulling. Now its setup, to help the tanks gain 30% agro, but only when the mobs are already engaged, and only if the tanks are targetted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Message Edited by Gerdos on 09-07-2006 02:42 PM

RedLujan

09-07-2006, 03:18 PM

Thanks everyone for the input regarding `confusing arrow'. So we really cant pull for the tank with this, we use this line to increase agro for the tank, once the MOB is hitting the tank. I think this thread does show we don't have any clear ranged role in a group, and we should have. Ranged fire is a basic and fundamental element of combat, and having ranged players in a group should offer real and clear tactical options/advantages. The Miracle Arrow line has an advantage, but I think its rarely needed. I've never been asked to use it or have felt the need to offer, although I can see occationally its gonna be great. I know when I'm playing my tank ALT I don't ask rangers to pull for me, cos it doesn't offer a big advantage and getting the agro back of them could be hassle.So I'm still hoping the Devs might think of something for us. I still think in principle we should be able to do real ranged damage for a short period before the mob enters melee combat, without wrecking agro management for the tank. i.e. our opening salvo at the tanks target generates a small amount of agro for the tank, but normal agro rules resume once melee begins. I'm sure this could be achieved in a number of ways. The point of this would be that when the tank sees he has a Ranger in the group he's pleased instead of apathetic, because he gets real help pulling, and his targets will be a little bit softened up when they get to him. Thats how ranged combat is supposed to be, isn't it? If the Devs are worried about possible exploits, they could put a time limit on it. So the `ranged combat window' only lasts until melee starts, or a short time period expires, whichever's first.Regarding social agro, this doesn't have to change anything. Social agro isn't always a problem for the pull, and being able to do this sometimes would be better than never.I know we have some agro assisting bonuses for the group, like trick arrow and the hawk, but I didn't role a ranger to be able to adjust agro. A Ranger should bring obvious ranged combat bonuses to the group.<div></div>

Jay

09-07-2006, 06:37 PM

Regarding Confounding Arrow: theoretically, couldn't you pull with that CA and have the tank intercept with a taunt while we hit Elude (Evasion line) and/or Surveillance? As long as the mob doesn't actually attack the ranger, the Blamed effect should go on the MT, right? Despite the general theme of this thread, I actually do a fair amount of pulling when I'm grouped with some longtime friends or guildies. One of my closest friends plays a guardian, and we've had the technique described above down for a long time. I don't always pull with Confounding; sometimes I use Amazing Shot or Surveillance, but I'm always able to ditch what little aggro I build with one CA by using Elude, and he's always able to easily gain hate by spamming taunt, so it fires off as soon as the mob is in range. It's a simple enough technique that I can just go "INC!" in group chat and fire off an arrow without any forewarning, and he knows to look sharp. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Blarth

09-07-2006, 07:39 PM

Surviellance is the best way to pullin in my opinion. At least in raid set up it is. Have a pally put a ward on you and pull with surviellance. The mob may hit you once but then will immeadiately go for the pally who should be standing next to the main tank. MT taunts off and it is a clean pull. The only trick to this is to make sure that no one casts on the mob while it is in socail range of other mobs. As long as no one casts on it while in range of other mobs you will nevr have a problem. <div></div>

RedLujan

09-07-2006, 08:10 PM

<div></div><a href="../view_profile?user.id=151438" target="_blank"></a>Jay42, I'm sure its possible to do what you describe with confounding arrow, but with all due respect where's the real advantage in it? If I was needed by the tank to pull, I would use my weakest bow shot possible, and then use surveil and/or evade to help give agro back to the tank. I'd minimise the work the tank had to do, and minimise the risk of Blame being cast on me. Once the tank had agro and was being hit by the MOB, then I'd fire Confounding Arrow/Trick Shot to help lock the MOB onto the tank safely. I think the way Trick Shot used to work (when Blame would be cast on the first person to hit the MOB), then it was intended to be used as you describe. Also, I don't want the tank wasting any taunts pulling from me, I want the tank to use taunts after Blame has landed on him/her, so the taunts get the boost. If I was the tank, I'd pull with my own bow and avoid all the hassle, because getting the Ranger to pull gives very little added advantage at the moment (in most situations), which is why we don't get asked to do this in the usual group very often (I've been asked once).What would be good is if we could pull by hitting the MOB hard and hurting it seriously, giving a real advantage to the group, and then being able to hand agro back to the tank easily. And I think we should be able to do that. I started this thread because like some other rangers, I think our ranged skills should contribute to the group in a more definate way.I dont personnaly think we should do the same DPS as an Assasin, it kind of makes sense for them to be great at killing things quick. But if they don't put us on a par with our sister class, then don't you think they need to make our ranged attacks more useful?<a href="../view_profile?user.id=151438" target="_blank"></a><div></div>

Jay

09-07-2006, 08:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedLujan wrote: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=151438" target=_blank></A> Jay42, I'm sure its possible to do what you describe with confounding arrow, but with all due respect where's the real advantage in it? <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=151438" target=_blank></A> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately, there isn't much of an advantage anymore, unless it's a line-of-sight issue where you can utilize Amazing (Miracle) Shot. I wasn't really saying there's an innate advantage, just pointing out that it's possible and fairly easy with a decent tank, as there were some posts earlier that implied otherwise. (To my knowledge, you don't immediately get Blamed cast on you by pulling with the Trick line, that'd make it pretty useless.) Anyway, I know where you're coming from. I'd just like SOME kind of clearer role for ranged combat in general; I don't necessarily need to be the designated puller, but I do feel that our role in a group or raid situation has steadily eroded into just Generic_DPS_class_01. I'd like some way to feel more unique than just a nuker who happens to use arrows. I'm not looking to be "better" than another class overall, just a more useful niche to fill.

Jowita

09-08-2006, 12:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote: I'd just like SOME kind of clearer role for ranged combat in general; I don't necessarily need to be the designated puller, but I do feel that our role in a group or raid situation has steadily eroded into just Generic_DPS_class_01. I'd like some way to feel more unique than just a nuker who happens to use arrows. I'm not looking to be "better" than another class overall, just a more useful niche to fill. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I agree. While I'm not prone to sudden bouts of class envy, I do sometimes dream about being able to do SOMETHING for the group other than provide additional DPS. Take Smuggle, for instance. What a useful ability! I'm always glad when there's someone in the group who can do that. Other than utility, what about a nice ranged CA? LOL, what if we had a bow skill that blinded the MOB? Call it "Blinding Shot," or something. Group-only. For 5 seconds, the MOB is unable to hit anyone. Fun, fun fun! Put it on a 10-minute re-use timer. I dunno. Just throwing darts in the dark here. But yes, SOME kind of clearer role would be appreciated, whether it be utility (which I would prefer) or a more useful CA. Jowita

RedLujan

09-08-2006, 01:50 PM

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div>Anyway, I know where you're coming from. I'd just like SOME kind of clearer role for ranged combat in general; I don't necessarily need to be the designated puller, but I do feel that our role in a group or raid situation has steadily eroded into just Generic_DPS_class_01. I'd like some way to feel more unique than just a nuker who happens to use arrows. I'm not looking to be "better" than another class overall, just a more useful niche to fill. <hr></blockquote>I totally agree with you. We have fantastic long bows with a range of 50 metres. How many of those expensive arrows to we fire at 50 metres when in a group? I have almost 1800 arrows in my quiver, and I shoot them all at point blank range (well spitting distance any way). I'm normally standing so close when grouped that it wound make more sense to bash the mob over the head with the quiver :smileyhappy:This thread has given me another idea. What about replacing Trick/Confounding Arrow with a new effect (lets face it, this thread shows Confounding Arrow isn't fully understood by a lot of us - and could do with an overhaul). Instead of Confounding Arrow, give us a new effect we cast on another player (the tank), lets call it Opening Salvo. Opening Salvo lasts for 5 seconds and causes 51% of the hate we generate to be tranfered to the target (the tank). This lets us do a couple of things, we can pull for the tank now buy safely opening up first with our ranged CAs. Tank gets 1% more agro than us, so tank gets the MOB. Alternatively if the tank wants to body pull, we can use this to safely open up on the tanks target while he's running back to the group. So instead of watching the tank getting wacked by the MOB all the way back to the group, we could fire Leg Shot at the MOB and help the tank out a bit (by snaring the persuing MOB). In fact Opening Salvo would let us do lots of interesting and useful Ranger things (well, lets us be Rangers at last) in the opening 5 seconds of the fight, which we should be able to do. 5 secs isn't gonna change the dynamics of a group fight that much, could be shorter, but give it a 30 sec timer so it'll be ready for the opening of the next fight. What do you think?The devil is in the detail I know, but the Devs are smart and will be able to work out how to juggle the figures (duration and % hate transfer) to make this effect change the game no more that Trick Arrow was intended to do. I'd love to know what other Rangers think about this idea, especially Jay42 and Flidias, since you seem to have similar aspirations for Rangers?</div>Message Edited by RedLujan on 09-08-2006 03:43 AMMessage Edited by RedLujan on 09-08-2006 03:44 AM

xandez

09-08-2006, 03:00 PM

Never used trick arrow line for pulling. Its too tricky perhaps? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Eh, however, ive used the surveil line pretty often. Particularly before it was changed. Now it doesnt necessarily change the mobs target away from you, if the tank etc are too long away or are not engaging or sumthing.Anyway, thats a useful pull tool. The more de-aggro it generates, the less social aggro you will get from it if you use it to pull socials.But the pulling is the tanks job. Let em die doing it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (hehe)++Xan<div></div>

Jay

09-08-2006, 09:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedLujan wrote: <DIV> I totally agree with you. We have fantastic long bows with a range of 50 metres. How many of those expensive arrows to we fire at 50 metres when in a group? I have almost 1800 arrows in my quiver, and I shoot them all at point blank range (well spitting distance any way). I'm normally standing so close when grouped that it wound make more sense to bash the mob over the head with the quiver :smileyhappy: This thread has given me another idea. What about replacing Trick/Confounding Arrow with a new effect (lets face it, this thread shows Confounding Arrow isn't fully understood by a lot of us - and could do with an overhaul). Instead of Confounding Arrow, give us a new effect we cast on another player (the tank), lets call it Opening Salvo. Opening Salvo lasts for 5 seconds and causes 51% of the hate we generate to be tranfered to the target (the tank). <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> Ewww. Ewww EWW, girl!! (Any Mr. Show fans out there?) Nah really, I dig that. A temporary hate transfer would be pretty sweet. It'd be useful on the pull but general utility on groups or raids would be good too, since you could fire it at any time. Imagine preceding a Focus Aim onslaught with a CA like that, and then dropping bombs. Ewww, girl. Problem is, I don't know how this would fit into the bigger picture with regards to hate transfers and aggro-related abilities. You'd have to make sure it didn't stack with another ranger's Opening Salvo or a battery of rangers could lock down aggro on a tank with no problem. I'd be interested to know the stacking restrictions on the assassin's redirect line, that might be relevent here. Anyway, while I don't necessarily want more utility in the strict sense (like group buffs), I wouldn't mind some CAs getting tweaked so they offer more of a benefit, b/c the damage on several arts just isn't happening.

Gerdos

09-09-2006, 03:37 AM

As of the recent LU, couple of interesting changes made to Wizards and Warlocks ... which is what some of the last posts related to. Not likely to see us get anything like this now, but we already have a self agro management buff and a agro generator. Combat Changes Warlock changes: - Boon of the Dark: Can be cast on a raid member. If they are a fighter, this transfers a small amount of the warlock's hate toward the fighter. Wizard changes: - Accord can be cast on a raid member. If they are a fighter, this transfers a small amount of the wizard's hate toward the fighter.

AChampi

09-11-2006, 05:24 AM

Surveillance is a great pulling skill, just not unique to Rangers as all Preds get it.It does not generate social agro so pulling mobs is safe, and can be used to pull right through other mobs safely.Necro's unfortunately get the same skill with their mage pet and int AA line. The range of it is phenomenal - basically as long as he can keep the target and mob is on the same elevation.The Bow of Searing Missles is a 45M range and most bow CAs (excluding Snaring Shot) work at that range.Selection and Culling both extend to the 45 and as these can be cast on the run it can be a very long range pull.Your resident Wanderer -Slic.

xandez

09-11-2006, 02:50 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>AChampion wrote:Surveillance is a great pulling skill, just not unique to Rangers as all Preds get it.It does not generate social agro so pulling mobs is safe, and can be used to pull right through other mobs safely.I think it does generate social aggro. Just not nearly as much as some other way of pulling. Atleast according to my tests <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But then again... dont have surveillance yet. Just using the ad1 version of improved <something> the lvl 5x version anyway.Necro's unfortunately get the same skill with their mage pet and int AA line. The range of it is phenomenal - basically as long as he can keep the target and mob is on the same elevation.Sniff... The Bow of Searing Missles is a 45M range and most bow CAs (excluding Snaring Shot) work at that range.Selection and Culling both extend to the 45 and as these can be cast on the run it can be a very long range pull.Yep, maybe i should get that bow into my hands! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Your resident Wanderer -Slic.Hello Slic btw! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr></blockquote>++Xan

Hisvet

09-13-2006, 08:10 PM

I used to never use surveillance accept as a threat reducer, never pulled in raids, etc, just not a pulling class until recently. We don't have Deathtoll access but we do Labs a lot. If we want quick money we do a Sanctum run and I will surveillance pull the bossmobs through a crowded room to my group safe up in a hallway. Saves time, effort etc. In a Lab relic run where you cannot fight the bosses there are cases where you need the amazing shot to pull a mob down the stairs through some doors up to your group to eliminate future nastiness, works well. Rooms with multiple beasties are pulled faster with less risk then body pulls (read none) and Surveillance drops aggro enough the tank has no issues taunting from his safety. Saves time, better for healers. Ranger just needs to remember to deaggro and switch back to the MA and backup quickly to force spell casters to run forward and not stand and cast. When we approach Lord Vyem we have a pulling team a monk, paladin and ranger with the monk starting the encounter, the paladin running off the prime healer and the ranger amazing shotting the dragon out of line of sight to split him perpendicularly and get him angled up to the Main tank who takes him off me and positions him well. Can some of these pulls be done with casters and conjurerer pets? Sure, but we usually don't have these classes available to us. You get creative, you save time and you have some fun with ranger pullings. My surveillance at Adept 3 has only gotten me dead when I screwed up by not backing up or hitting the wrong button accidentally.

Jay

09-13-2006, 08:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xandez wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AChampion wrote: I think it does generate social aggro. Just not nearly as much as some other way of pulling. Atleast according to my tests <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But then again... dont have surveillance yet. Just using the ad1 version of improved <something> the lvl 5x version anyway. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, you have Improved Surveil, which does not avoid social. It's important to note that when we say 'Surveillance doesn't generate social aggro' we mean ONLY Surveillance... not the whole line. For some reason it's just the level 70 version that has that little perk. FWIW, I was using Surveillance to pull tons of mobs in Sanctum the other day and it worked like a charm. Never drew any social aggro, and my girlfriend (tanking) was able to pull everything off me with a single taunt. Nice little system going there.