The Rise & Fall of Rangers

[Gerdos]

<DIV> <DIV>/stands on soapbox</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't really spend much time on the forums.  I hadn't even looked at the forums until a few months into T6.  Even now, i only check every few weeks.  I've read a lot of stuff, some informative, some misleading, some funny, some flames, some constructive ... but far too many whinging.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>A little background on me</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>There's a lot of threads, directly or indirectly related to the current state of rangers and our dps.  I've rarely contributed to any of them, mainly b/c i only notice them a few weeks after they start.   I've had a ranger since the early days, but only switched to a main midway through T6 ... not even knowing at the time they were numero uno on DPS.  However, before switching my "twinky" ranger to my main, i was fortunate to be part of an incredible group, which i think included 1 of the best rangers gamewide.  I learnt a lot about the class from him ... but sadly he left EQ2 for RL reasons midway through T6.  Anyway, i've had a lot of experience with rangers and have devoted a lot of my time to learning/perfecting the class i love most as well as experiencing the high's of T6 and changes (nerfs) introduced in T7.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>A little history on rangers</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>During T6, rangers were the FoTM, the dominant DPS class.  Not by a little bit, but by a lot.  Rangers saw a huge influx of new players to the class because rangers were "l33t".  i remember power leveling my ranger with other DPS classes and always getting comments about my DPS.  Even when raiding, i was constantly getting comments to my DPS (and secretly, a lot of resentment from other players/classes).  My figures were insane, i constantly parsed no.1 on <EM>every encounter</EM>, and the margin b/w myself and the next player always ranged from 50-1000.  Even when raiding to 80% of my ability, i still easily topped DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would occassionaly look at the ranger forums to get some tips to our class, and remember reading all the posts from rangers talking about their 'l33t" skills/dps numbers.  I also remember reading many posts from other classes (rightly) complaining about our DPS.  It quickly became apparent to everyone that rangers were unbalanced.  It would be just a matter of time before we were fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enter, KoS and T7.  - The impact was immediate and severe.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers as a whole, complained in unison.  Many threatened (and did) to leave the game or betray or change to alts due to the nerf being too great.  Even many of those who were great contributers to the ranger community and whose opinions i respected had fallen into despair due to the nerf.  Other classes rejoiced at the changes.   Most rangers went from being no1 dps to mid range.  A few were still around the top bracket, but no longer on top on every encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE in hindsight recognised they hit us too hard, so made some minor changes to help us.  Some of those changes didn't go as far as we were promised, while other minor fixes were offset by some further (stealth) nerfs due to PvP.  Something that SOE always stated/promised would not happen, but what everyone else knows as fact.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After a few months, and many rightly or wrongly complaints (posts) and a large exodus of the player base in rangers (although we still remain high as a player base in comparison to other classes) we are where we are today.  There have been no further mechanical/design changes to rangers since after the 2nd month KOS was released.   Yet, rangers continue be portrayed in a bad light, in part to several forum threads which can easily be miss interpreted or in some cases are just wrong/misleading.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>My opinions</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>1.  There's a giant thread under Combat Discussion re: Most Useless class for raiding (plus several other threads discussing dps/raiding).. which was unamisously voted as SKs and Rangers.  This thread more then anything else has contributed to a lot of the missconceptions about rangers.  Behind a lot of this debate were members of the Dissolution who repeatedly nominated SKs and Rangers for this.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i'm going to attempt to put this into context.  In itself, i don't have a problem with this assessment.  In some ways i agree with it.  <U>My problem was with the OP of the thread who labelled the thread as ".. most USELESS ..".  This term in itself misleads the debate into claiming rangers are useless for raiding.</U>  Yet, anyone who paid attention to the posts would have also noticed that even Dissolution stated rangers weren't useless  ... but merely gave valid reasons that can be justified as why they are less desirebale then others.  Even then, this was only under certain conditions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look even deeper into this discussion, you need to understand how and why Dissolution came to this view, understand how rangers operate and where they excell at,  and put the whole debate into context.  It's been a long time since they had a fulltime raiding ranger, someone who is fully (offensively) mastered, highly geared and with all the changes that were made after KOS was released.   Throw an equivalent geared ranger into their raid force, and you'll see their dps numbers change and impact on each of their individual parses.   I'm positive that a ranger will finish in their top 5 in 95% of encounters (thats also assuming they have 2x assassins, conji, necro ... all going hard).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  It wasn't KOS/T7 that broke rangers, but T6.  </DIV> <DIV>T6 made rangers lazy, it gave us "l33t" parse numbers for little effort.  It greatly narrowed the gap between avg/good rangers to the best rangers/players.   It made avg/good rangers parse higher then great players from other classes.  It gave unrealistic and misleading parse numbers that did not reflect the true value of the actual players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although, rangers have taken a big hit from T7, we needed it.  The gap/balance b/w the top DPS classes is narrower now in T7 then what it was back in T6 when rangers domimated.  I still think it needs some minor tweaking to balance it further .. but thats for another discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Khalan was the only ranger that <EM>posted</EM> what needed to be said when T7 came out.  While every other ranger gamewide posted a lot of negative stuff, it was Khalan who understood the changes and how to minimise the impact by changing the (lazy)style of play that rangers had adopted from T6. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the weeks passed after the initial release, i noticed some of the rangers starting to post how they enjoyed playing their rangers more now.  That they were parsing higher (in some part due to minor fixes), due to being forced to change their style of play.  For me personally, i took more delight from reading those posts from the great ranger contributers who i think lost their way a little in T6 and the impact that T7 initially had.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Lockeye (game designer) recently posted information about the data SOE analyze and stated that rangers rank between 1-4 in all size categories with an average ranking of 2.2.  I would agree with that 100%.  Anyone who doesn't, doesn't understand the context that it was put in.  On raids, where rangers dps drops behind a little, most guilds and raid forces, would still show those numbers as accurate.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, when everything else is even and players skills are evenly matched, i'm sure the ranger falls behind a little further.  That rank dropping its average to around 4 (-/+ 0.5).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The raid parse that Lockeye posted is a little misleading.  As much as i like to think and know rangers still offer decent DPS, we don't top parses when everything else is even.   That parse showing the ranger topping parses, and a big gap b/w the other classes ... which just isn't a true reflection of what everyone else in game experiences on a day to day basis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Stop complaining of costs to give DPS.   It's something we've had since the beginning of EQ2 and something we're all aware of.  If you dont like it, find another class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are easy work arounds to the arrow supply problem, while poisons are just part and parcel of being a scout (bards excluded).  T6 costs were far worse then what they are in T7.  Back then, you were forced to use different arrow types, and preference to get crafted arrows for the appropriate tier, rather then using the T5 arrow summon.  (not that it affected our DPS in T6).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Repair costs are the single biggest cost to any raider in T7.  (thankfully they are changing that with next LU .. better late then never).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6.  <U><STRONG>Any ranger who thinks they are not T1 DPS, is only kidding themselves.</STRONG></U>   There's a lot of reasons why your parse numbers might be lower then what they should be.   The rank of your CAs, the equipment you use, the poisons you use, the group setup your in, the ammo you use, the effort you put in ... and the style you use, (you've actually got to work for high DPS now) ... all contributing factors.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your still not happy with your DPS, even if you have good equipment .... maybe its time to consider another class.  :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use the forums, or chat with established raiding rangers for information.   The resources are there, you just need to use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7.  Don't get bogged down by other peoples postings on parses or general disscussion.  DPS figures are very subjective, ... unless you know exactly what the raid/group setups are, the mobs involved, the skill ranks and equipment of players, .. figures mean very little.   Just focus on your own dps, and try to find ways to improve your own dps over a period of time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers aren't like we were in T6 (thankfully, and hopefully no class will even be so unbalanced again)</DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still T1 DPS at T7.   You just need to work hard for it.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still great for raids and groups, solo is more difficult, but workable.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still a fun class to play!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers, still need a few minor tweaks, and i'm sure the developers are looking into this.  Personally, i'd like them to contact 1 (or some) of the main ranger contributers for a proper dialogue of the current state of rangers, and what changes could be made.  I have some of my own views, which i'll save for another time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/steps off soapbox</DIV> <DIV>/evac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Tarryn]

<P>Yes, rangers were badly broken pre-LU20.  They're broken now, though not nearly as badly.  Unfortunately, now the problems are pointed toward the "less fun" end of the spectrum--thus the whinging.</P> <P>The post-nerf changes had very little real impact, and we're still not as close to our assassin counterparts as we should be.  Some of our abilities have been nerfed to the point they're useless (Stream of Arrows), some haven't scaled properly (Precise Shot/Triple Volley), and some are just plain baffling (Hawk Dive).  We need more than little tweaking, but less than a lot of tweaking.  A moderate amount of tweaking should do nicely.</P> <P>That said, I don't think many of us (of those who are still rangers <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) think the class isn't fun or that it's so horribly broken it's "useless".  It just doesn't have the damage output to compensate for the lack of any other usefulness. When other classes can do all the damage we can, plus a variety of other [stuff], we definitely are at a disadvantage.  That is a disadvantage that does need to be addressed, and the sooner the better.</P> <P>But even if they never touch rangers again, I'll keep playing my ranger.  (Now, if they pull out the nerf-bat again, heaven forfend, I might have to reconsider...)</P>

[Jayad]

<P>"I'm positive that a ranger will finish in their top 5 in 95% of encounters (thats also assuming they have 2x assassins, conji, necro ... all going hard)."</P> <P>You may be positive of this, but it's not true - unless those other classes suck.  The bottom line is, there are far more average-good players out there than superb ones, and most of the time when people compare themselves to other classes, you aren't comparing the same skill levels.  This is not a knock on the average player, just that you can't compare DPS potential except when the classes are played to their potential.  That's when guilds like Dissolution are valuable, because they have taken everything as far as it can go.  They say Rangers *cannot* compete, no matter the gear or groups.  This matches my experience as well.  You really need to see some very good assassins in action to truly understand just how big the gap is.  I have yet to see some rangers post the kind of DPS you see from the top assassins, and I think without changes they never will.  There are some very good rangers out there, and good guilds.  IF rangers could compete at that level, we would have seen the evidence and we would all have shut up by now. </P> <P>I mean, what do you think is a lot of DPS?  1100?  1200?  1400?  Those may be fine efforts, but they are not the top end.   I applaud rangers who can regularly parse in the high range, because it's really hard.  But those are only good dps values for rangers.  We can see Rangers do "good" dps but they need to do "great" dps to be equal to the other predator, assassins.  Check out some great swashies, brigands, bezerkers and brawlers to see just how little advantage we have.  They won't touch a good assassin.</P><p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 PM</span>

[Mirdo]

<FONT color=#339900>My Opinions:<BR></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  It wasn't KOS/T7 that broke rangers, but T6.  </DIV> <DIV>T6 made rangers lazy, it gave us "l33t" parse numbers for little effort.  It greatly narrowed the gap between avg/good rangers to the best rangers/players.   It made avg/good rangers parse higher then great players from other classes.  It gave unrealistic and misleading parse numbers that did not reflect the true value of the actual players.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>Agreed</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although, rangers have taken a big hit from T7, we needed it.  The gap/balance b/w the top DPS classes is narrower now in T7 then what it was back in T6 when rangers domimated.  I still think it needs some minor tweaking to balance it further .. but thats for another discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Khalan was the only ranger that <EM>posted</EM> what needed to be said when T7 came out.  While every other ranger gamewide posted a lot of negative stuff, it was Khalan who understood the changes and how to minimise the impact by changing the (lazy)style of play that rangers had adopted from T6. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>Khalan no longer plays a Ranger as his main and posted a thread in these forums regarding Betrayal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the weeks passed after the initial release, i noticed some of the rangers starting to post how they enjoyed playing their rangers more now.  That they were parsing higher (in some part due to minor fixes), due to being forced to change their style of play.  For me personally, i took more delight from reading those posts from the great ranger contributers who i think lost their way a little in T6 and the impact that T7 initially had.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Lockeye (game designer) recently posted information about the data SOE analyze and stated that rangers rank between 1-4 in all size categories with an average ranking of 2.2.  I would agree with that 100%.  Anyone who doesn't, doesn't understand the context that it was put in.  On raids, where rangers dps drops behind a little, most guilds and raid forces, would still show those numbers as accurate.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, when everything else is even and players skills are evenly matched, i'm sure the ranger falls behind a little further.  That rank dropping its average to around 4 (-/+ 0.5).</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>In my experience, Conjurers, Assassins, Swashies, Brigands all regularly out DPS Rangers in a raid set up for high DPS - 16-20k range depending on zone.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The raid parse that Lockeye posted is a little misleading.  As much as i like to think and know rangers still offer decent DPS, we don't top parses when everything else is even.   That parse showing the ranger topping parses, and a big gap b/w the other classes ... which just isn't a true reflection of what everyone else in game experiences on a day to day basis.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>So you agree that Rangers cannot top parses where everything is equal. That's what the players campaigning for more DPS at the top end are saying. If we supposed to be a DPS based class, why can classes with a fair bit more utility top our DPS figures on high DPS raids?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Stop complaining of costs to give DPS.   It's something we've had since the beginning of EQ2 and something we're all aware of.  If you dont like it, find another class.  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>There is a big difference between 100c for a stack of arrows and 6.5g. To a high playtime Ranger that's a lot of money even bolstering supplies with salvaged etc. I burn thousands of arrows per week raiding and grouping with guildmates. To me, it's not a huge problem, but I can see how it could be to others. Why don't you stop complaining about the complainers - that's about as constructive as your comment and guess what - it didn't help either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are easy work arounds to the arrow supply problem, while poisons are just part and parcel of being a scout (bards excluded).  T6 costs were far worse then what they are in T7.  Back then, you were forced to use different arrow types, and preference to get crafted arrows for the appropriate tier, rather then using the T5 arrow summon.  (not that it affected our DPS in T6).</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>The only easy workaround I can think of is using lower tier arrows to save money. That's not an acceptable solution. What are the other easy workarounds to supply thousands of tier appropriate arrows per week?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Repair costs are the single biggest cost to any raider in T7.  (thankfully they are changing that with next LU .. better late then never).</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>Really? Arrows and poisons cost me far more than repairs. But then again our guild provides repair kits for when we learn encounters like Cruor and Tari - it will be the same when we start on Che'l Drak. Once the encounters are beaten repairs usually drop to very little or zero per raid. Arrows and poison costs are continuous. 3 poisons / potions every raid plus a mix of store bought, player crafted and harvested arrows for me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>6.  <U><STRONG>Any ranger who thinks they are not T1 DPS, is only kidding themselves.</STRONG></U>   There's a lot of reasons why your parse numbers might be lower then what they should be.   The rank of your CAs, the equipment you use, the poisons you use, the group setup your in, the ammo you use, the effort you put in ... and the style you use, (you've actually got to work for high DPS now) ... all contributing factors.   </P> <P><FONT color=#339900>Any Ranger that thinks we are fine DPS in raids is kidding themselves. I provided as much evidence as you did - none at all. In my experience, when a raid is hitting the 16 to 20k range, we fall behind the Assassins, Conj, Swash and brigs - this is small group and singles. On fast AoE fights we seem to be fine.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your still not happy with your DPS, even if you have good equipment .... maybe its time to consider another class.  :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>No thanks. Despite not being happy with our raid DPS (imo we are fine group, I don't comment solo because I rarely do it) I'll stick with the class I've been playing since release. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use the forums, or chat with established raiding rangers for information.   The resources are there, you just need to use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7.  Don't get bogged down by other peoples postings on parses or general disscussion.  DPS figures are very subjective, ... unless you know exactly what the raid/group setups are, the mobs involved, the skill ranks and equipment of players, .. figures mean very little.   Just focus on your own dps, and try to find ways to improve your own dps over a period of time. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>I agree DPS is very subjective. I moved guilds earlier this year. I went from being close to topping all raid parses in labs and Lyceum with my old guild to a guild doing between 6k and 10k more raids DPS. I've already mentioned the classes that can regularly out-dps me. This is my personal experience. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>I am virtually fully mastered - including T6. STR is capped on raids, Int is low at about 300 though. I can't do single target 1.8k against most bosses. Other classes can. I don't know what else to do other than think the ranger DPS curve falls off right at the top against the curve of other classes. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers aren't like we were in T6 (thankfully, and hopefully no class will even be so unbalanced again)</DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still T1 DPS at T7.   You just need to work hard for it.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>T1 is now subjective. I would rather just list the classes that bring more utility and DPS than a Ranger - there are a few of them. that's the issue I have. You can bring a Swashy, Conj, Brig and get equivalent or better than Ranger DPS plus some great utility via buffs and debuffs. If you can get their hate under control you might as well bring a zerker than a Ranger.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still great for raids and groups, solo is more difficult, but workable.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>I completely agree.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still a fun class to play!</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#339900>If they weren't I would have switched to one of my alts as main a long time ago.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers, still need a few minor tweaks, and i'm sure the developers are looking into this.  Personally, i'd like them to contact 1 (or some) of the main ranger contributers for a proper dialogue of the current state of rangers, and what changes could be made.  I have some of my own views, which i'll save for another time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/steps off soapbox</DIV> <DIV>/evac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Mirdo.<BR>

[xandez]

<div></div>Well... Playing a ranger has always been fun for me. I started as a ranger, i still play my ranger. Heck, i made another ranger after the combat revamp just to be able to better understand the life of a n00b ranger.Are we broken now? Imo, no.Have we been broken since launch and only functional for a short time? Again, imo, no.The top DPS we had a priviledge to enjoy for a while was sweet, althou way too short. In these kind of games, the balancing is quite impossible and usually the attemps to balace things end up being major nerfs instead. Its just a question, which class is next? Also, if we constantly whine that our DPS sucks (compared eg. to assassins). Where will it lead? Will they upgrade rangers, or possibly downgrade other classes?Only one thing is certain. This will give ppl a reason to believe that we indeed suck, do we?I dont think so, but then again, i love to play my ranger(s).++Xan<div></div><p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 AM</span>

[Peston]

I'm very tired of hearing the same arguments over and over. ( Do not tell me to stop posting/stop reading or I'll shoot you with a wet noodle.)<span>:smileytongue:</span>Seriously it's the same over and over. We've seen the combat matchups in very lengthy threads full of spreadsheets and parses and cookies.We know our class is somewhat lacking in the raid area. It pisses me off seeing a conjuror beat me on the parse every single fight. He gets a bunch of pets... CotH... tons of utility etc. What do I get? a Hawk...And don't tell me we get Track ( so does every other scout ) or evac ( apparantly every class has that now too but fighters... )Bleh I'm tired... let's just find something else to argue about for the time being... how about sushi?<div></div>

[papasmurf1004]

Honestly rangers are still rocking raid DPS if played right we aren't what we were in t6 nor will any of us say we should be. They biggest problem i have these days is the huge change in our solo ability not our raid output. With the confined space and positioning of most mobs in t7 it is extremely difficult and at times impossible to solo like most other classes. Cranking out 1.2k-1.4k dps on raids is really not that hard. Sure other classes can do more but all power to them lol. I just want some more solo ability back. Although my 70 brigand disagrees as he is loving the extra attention.

[xandez]

Hehe... sushi, mmm...Well, someone once said (wisely imho), that different parsing programs ruin the fun in eq2. What do you think? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan<div></div>

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xandez wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>Also, if we constantly whine that our DPS sucks (compared eg. to assassins). Where will it lead? Will they upgrade rangers, or possibly downgrade other classes?<BR>Only one thing is certain. This will give ppl a reason to believe that we indeed suck, do we?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The people to whom this all matters already know the classes that bring more to a raid than Rangers. Rangers that care about their DPS output and utility balance advocating change will not make the situation worse. It's been stated again and again this applies to raids and pretty much raids only. It *might* show up somewhere like Nizarra but against the average dead in 15 seconds triple up you won't see it.</P> <P>If you are recruiting to raid, there is really not much point in picking a Ranger over a Wizzy, Assassin, Brigand, Conj or Swashy if they all know how to play their classes.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P> <P> </P> <P> <BR></P>

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> papasmurf1004 wrote:<BR> Honestly rangers are still rocking raid DPS if played right we aren't what we were in t6 nor will any of us say we should be. They biggest problem i have these days is the huge change in our solo ability not our raid output. With the confined space and positioning of most mobs in t7 it is extremely difficult and at times impossible to solo like most other classes. Cranking out 1.2k-1.4k dps on raids is really not that hard. Sure other classes can do more but all power to them lol. I just want some more solo ability back. Although my 70 brigand disagrees as he is loving the extra attention.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Obviously not all of us are happy cranking out 1.2 to 1.4k when demonstrably more useful classes can equal or exceed those numbers.</P> <P>You have a 70 brigand as well as a Ranger, you must know you can hit Ranger DPS numbers and increase the DPS of pretty much the whole raid on top? How is that balanced? Brigands can't even throw the tired old 'you can attack from range' argument because they have AoE immunity.</P> <P>Mirdo.</P>

[xandez]

<div></div>Well, if your in a guild that raids regularly, i dont see a problem for a ranger to get into the raiding business. If theres limited spots, maybe then, but... Why should someone have to re-roll some other class just to be able to get into raids, if he/she enjoys to play a ranger? (Even if the ranger wouldnt contribute as much in that raid). Is the difference really so big? Or even if it is, is it that important?++Xan<div></div><p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:36 PM</span>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>I don't see a single opinion in the original post that hasn't been said many times before.  There is absolutely nothing new in there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the OP...  What was the purpose of your post?  Are you just venting?  Are you stirring the pot?  Why do you want to travel this road yet once again?  It doesn't have the feel of constructive criticism.</DIV>

[LoreLady]

To the OP - currently we are talking about a 20-30% damage diffrence than assassins, for further proof - read the gap pt 2 (its in page 2 or 3 now).Also, id like to point out.. That I can get more dps with a lesser geared assassin than I can with my own toon. An assassin who has two masters - and similar gear to myself does about 10-15% more damage than I do, even while im the one playing that assassin.Now, if we take out the diffrence in user.. Full master to 2 masters and rest adept 3... Hmm, 2 masters rest adept 3 = 15% more dps.. So, lets assume my data is right.. Full master to full master =assassin does 20-30% more dps. (masters give out about a 15% ca diff to adept 3's).The only place where things get misleading is hate.. Rangers have the best self hate reduction in the game, and a ranger should be going all out at all times, where a wizard has to hold back.. Unfortunatly - the same excuse doesnt go for assassins.. But, it could be one of the main factors thats making rangers look the way they are on lockeyes data.

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:Also, id like to point out.. That I can get more dps with a lesser geared assassin than I can with my own toon. An assassin who has two masters - and similar gear to myself does about 10-15% more damage than I do, even while im the one playing that assassin.<hr></blockquote>It seems you suck at both Rangers and Assassins now.  Roll a healer. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />this is the umpteenth thread on this stuff (though I like the OP's attitude) and it will never be resolved for the simple reason that your all concerned about who can throw an orange the fartherest and SOE is worried about how far ALL the apples in the orchard are falling.   Their job is to ballance classes across the entire game, not just raiding.  They are probably quite happy to have rangers do 10-15% less damage in raids if their data suggests that it evens out across the whole game.  Sad as that is.</div>

[Rinio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>/stands on soapbox</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't really spend much time on the forums.  I hadn't even looked at the forums until a few months into T6.  Even now, i only check every few weeks.  I've read a lot of stuff, some informative, some misleading, some funny, some flames, some constructive ... but far too many whinging.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>A little background on me</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>There's a lot of threads, directly or indirectly related to the current state of rangers and our dps.  I've rarely contributed to any of them, mainly b/c i only notice them a few weeks after they start.   I've had a ranger since the early days, but only switched to a main midway through T6 ... not even knowing at the time they were numero uno on DPS.  However, before switching my "twinky" ranger to my main, i was fortunate to be part of an incredible group, which i think included 1 of the best rangers gamewide.  I learnt a lot about the class from him ... but sadly he left EQ2 for RL reasons midway through T6.  Anyway, i've had a lot of experience with rangers and have devoted a lot of my time to learning/perfecting the class i love most as well as experiencing the high's of T6 and changes (nerfs) introduced in T7.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>A little history on rangers</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>During T6, rangers were the FoTM, the dominant DPS class.  Not by a little bit, but by a lot.  Rangers saw a huge influx of new players to the class because rangers were "l33t".  i remember power leveling my ranger with other DPS classes and always getting comments about my DPS.  Even when raiding, i was constantly getting comments to my DPS (and secretly, a lot of resentment from other players/classes).  My figures were insane, i constantly parsed no.1 on <EM>every encounter</EM>, and the margin b/w myself and the next player always ranged from 50-1000.  Even when raiding to 80% of my ability, i still easily topped DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would occassionaly look at the ranger forums to get some tips to our class, and remember reading all the posts from rangers talking about their 'l33t" skills/dps numbers.  I also remember reading many posts from other classes (rightly) complaining about our DPS.  It quickly became apparent to everyone that rangers were unbalanced.  It would be just a matter of time before we were fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enter, KoS and T7.  - The impact was immediate and severe.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers as a whole, complained in unison.  Many threatened (and did) to leave the game or betray or change to alts due to the nerf being too great.  Even many of those who were great contributers to the ranger community and whose opinions i respected had fallen into despair due to the nerf.  Other classes rejoiced at the changes.   Most rangers went from being no1 dps to mid range.  A few were still around the top bracket, but no longer on top on every encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE in hindsight recognised they hit us too hard, so made some minor changes to help us.  Some of those changes didn't go as far as we were promised, while other minor fixes were offset by some further (stealth) nerfs due to PvP.  Something that SOE always stated/promised would not happen, but what everyone else knows as fact.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After a few months, and many rightly or wrongly complaints (posts) and a large exodus of the player base in rangers (although we still remain high as a player base in comparison to other classes) we are where we are today.  There have been no further mechanical/design changes to rangers since after the 2nd month KOS was released.   Yet, rangers continue be portrayed in a bad light, in part to several forum threads which can easily be miss interpreted or in some cases are just wrong/misleading.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>My opinions</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>1.  There's a giant thread under Combat Discussion re: Most Useless class for raiding (plus several other threads discussing dps/raiding).. which was unamisously voted as SKs and Rangers.  This thread more then anything else has contributed to a lot of the missconceptions about rangers.  Behind a lot of this debate were members of the Dissolution who repeatedly nominated SKs and Rangers for this.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i'm going to attempt to put this into context.  In itself, i don't have a problem with this assessment.  In some ways i agree with it.  <U>My problem was with the OP of the thread who labelled the thread as ".. most USELESS ..".  This term in itself misleads the debate into claiming rangers are useless for raiding.</U>  Yet, anyone who paid attention to the posts would have also noticed that even Dissolution stated rangers weren't useless  ... but merely gave valid reasons that can be justified as why they are less desirebale then others.  Even then, this was only under certain conditions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look even deeper into this discussion, you need to understand how and why Dissolution came to this view, understand how rangers operate and where they excell at,  and put the whole debate into context.  It's been a long time since they had a fulltime raiding ranger, someone who is fully (offensively) mastered, highly geared and with all the changes that were made after KOS was released.   Throw an equivalent geared ranger into their raid force, and you'll see their dps numbers change and impact on each of their individual parses.   I'm positive that a ranger will finish in their top 5 in 95% of encounters (thats also assuming they have 2x assassins, conji, necro ... all going hard).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  It wasn't KOS/T7 that broke rangers, but T6.  </DIV> <DIV>T6 made rangers lazy, it gave us "l33t" parse numbers for little effort.  It greatly narrowed the gap between avg/good rangers to the best rangers/players.   It made avg/good rangers parse higher then great players from other classes.  It gave unrealistic and misleading parse numbers that did not reflect the true value of the actual players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although, rangers have taken a big hit from T7, we needed it.  The gap/balance b/w the top DPS classes is narrower now in T7 then what it was back in T6 when rangers domimated.  I still think it needs some minor tweaking to balance it further .. but thats for another discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Khalan was the only ranger that <EM>posted</EM> what needed to be said when T7 came out.  While every other ranger gamewide posted a lot of negative stuff, it was Khalan who understood the changes and how to minimise the impact by changing the (lazy)style of play that rangers had adopted from T6. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the weeks passed after the initial release, i noticed some of the rangers starting to post how they enjoyed playing their rangers more now.  That they were parsing higher (in some part due to minor fixes), due to being forced to change their style of play.  For me personally, i took more delight from reading those posts from the great ranger contributers who i think lost their way a little in T6 and the impact that T7 initially had.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Lockeye (game designer) recently posted information about the data SOE analyze and stated that rangers rank between 1-4 in all size categories with an average ranking of 2.2.  I would agree with that 100%.  Anyone who doesn't, doesn't understand the context that it was put in.  On raids, where rangers dps drops behind a little, most guilds and raid forces, would still show those numbers as accurate.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, when everything else is even and players skills are evenly matched, i'm sure the ranger falls behind a little further.  That rank dropping its average to around 4 (-/+ 0.5).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The raid parse that Lockeye posted is a little misleading.  As much as i like to think and know rangers still offer decent DPS, we don't top parses when everything else is even.   That parse showing the ranger topping parses, and a big gap b/w the other classes ... which just isn't a true reflection of what everyone else in game experiences on a day to day basis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5.  Stop complaining of costs to give DPS.   It's something we've had since the beginning of EQ2 and something we're all aware of.  If you dont like it, find another class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are easy work arounds to the arrow supply problem, while poisons are just part and parcel of being a scout (bards excluded).  T6 costs were far worse then what they are in T7.  Back then, you were forced to use different arrow types, and preference to get crafted arrows for the appropriate tier, rather then using the T5 arrow summon.  (not that it affected our DPS in T6).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Repair costs are the single biggest cost to any raider in T7.  (thankfully they are changing that with next LU .. better late then never).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6.  <U><STRONG>Any ranger who thinks they are not T1 DPS, is only kidding themselves.</STRONG></U>   There's a lot of reasons why your parse numbers might be lower then what they should be.   The rank of your CAs, the equipment you use, the poisons you use, the group setup your in, the ammo you use, the effort you put in ... and the style you use, (you've actually got to work for high DPS now) ... all contributing factors.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your still not happy with your DPS, even if you have good equipment .... maybe its time to consider another class.  :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use the forums, or chat with established raiding rangers for information.   The resources are there, you just need to use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7.  Don't get bogged down by other peoples postings on parses or general disscussion.  DPS figures are very subjective, ... unless you know exactly what the raid/group setups are, the mobs involved, the skill ranks and equipment of players, .. figures mean very little.   Just focus on your own dps, and try to find ways to improve your own dps over a period of time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers aren't like we were in T6 (thankfully, and hopefully no class will even be so unbalanced again)</DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still T1 DPS at T7.   You just need to work hard for it.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still great for raids and groups, solo is more difficult, but workable.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers are still a fun class to play!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers, still need a few minor tweaks, and i'm sure the developers are looking into this.  Personally, i'd like them to contact 1 (or some) of the main ranger contributers for a proper dialogue of the current state of rangers, and what changes could be made.  I have some of my own views, which i'll save for another time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/steps off soapbox</DIV> <DIV>/evac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree and to the nay sayers booing and hissing saying that being top 5 in a riad parse is BS. man get over it.</P> <P>Ever take a look at group set up during a raid? can you honestly say you dont make higher parses when you have come dps buffs even better proc buffs from Conjurers, crusaders, inquisitors (all work on ranged) I mean if you arent breaking a 1k-1.2k with a good group set up maybe its YOUR play style that needs worked on.</P> <P>I used to get preety [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty parses to, but that was due to lag. I fixed that prbolem and got a new PC /poke</P> <P>Seriously take a good look at your raid groups with al lthe boo hiss rangers suck hey man that starts to stick and a raid leader isnt goign to stick a ranger in a good group with procs and DPS if they think the ranger aint gunna do shet.</P> <P>Start rubbing it in that YOU need to be grouped with the extra coercer in raid and not the assassin. assassins need to have haste not more dps they can max it easy with just a dirge plus a dirge would give them blades, Inquisitor, or beserker even. Also rub it in that YOU need to be with the coercer and not the Swashbuckler or brigande, They need to be with the fury to get agitate which is melee only and them being melee classes should be procing it like mad, where we wont. </P> <P>So to all you nay sayers that dis on rangers LEARN TO SET UP GROUPS. kkthx Learn other peoples classes so you know what goes well with what.</P> <P>Sick of having to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at Conjurers to take down there mitigation Buff in a dps group and give mroe people ember seed to, a dps group doesnt need mit omg! if we get agro from being dumb and not spaming DE-agros that 200 extra mit WILL NOT SAVE US.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I agree and to the nay sayers booing and hissing saying that being top 5 in a riad parse is BS. man get over it.</p> <p>Ever take a look at group set up during a raid? can you honestly say you dont make higher parses when you have come dps buffs even better proc buffs from Conjurers, crusaders, inquisitors (all work on ranged) I mean if you arent breaking a 1k-1.2k with a good group set up maybe its YOUR play style that needs worked on.</p> <p>I used to get preety [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty parses to, but that was due to lag. I fixed that prbolem and got a new PC /poke</p> <p>Seriously take a good look at your raid groups with al lthe boo hiss rangers suck hey man that starts to stick and a raid leader isnt goign to stick a ranger in a good group with procs and DPS if they think the ranger aint gunna do shet.</p> <p>Start rubbing it in that YOU need to be grouped with the extra coercer in raid and not the assassin. assassins need to have haste not more dps they can max it easy with just a dirge plus a dirge would give them blades, Inquisitor, or beserker even. Also rub it in that YOU need to be with the coercer and not the Swashbuckler or brigande, They need to be with the fury to get agitate which is melee only and them being melee classes should be procing it like mad, where we wont. </p> <p>So to all you nay sayers that dis on rangers LEARN TO SET UP GROUPS. kkthx Learn other peoples classes so you know what goes well with what.</p> <p>Sick of having to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at Conjurers to take down there mitigation Buff in a dps group and give mroe people ember seed to, a dps group doesnt need mit omg! if we get agro from being dumb and not spaming DE-agros that 200 extra mit WILL NOT SAVE US.</p><hr></blockquote>Heres the thing though - in a perfect setup I  do 1.2-1.4k dps in 2 min fights, an assassin in the same group will do 1.5-1.8k dps. A top geared assassin is looking at 2k - as a top geared ranger is looking at 1.5k.Now, you also have to look at it this way. A fully aa'd rouge will do an average of 1.3k dps even in the short buss group, a fully aa'd summoner will do 1.1-1.3k in the shortbuss group.. A fully aa'd ranger is going to do 900-1.1k in the shortbuss group.</div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>RinionX wrote:</P> <P>I agree and to the nay sayers booing and hissing saying that being top 5 in a riad parse is BS. man get over it.</P> <P>Ever take a look at group set up during a raid? can you honestly say you dont make higher parses when you have come dps buffs even better proc buffs from Conjurers, crusaders, inquisitors (all work on ranged) I mean if you arent breaking a 1k-1.2k with a good group set up maybe its YOUR play style that needs worked on.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL.  You might want to look at your own play style.  1k-1.2k is a little below the standard for Rangers.  You should be doing 1.1k-1.4k and that is still 15-25% lower than what your assassins/swashies/conjurers can do.<BR>

[Mirdo]

I just wish people could see what some classes are really capable of when geared and played well. 1.2kdps - that will just about get into our top 10 most fights - some fights it won't. That's in the same same group as the swashies, Brigs and assassins out damaging you.<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mirdo wrote:I just wish people could see what some classes are really capable of when geared and played well. 1.2kdps - that will just about get into our top 10 most fights - some fights it won't. That's in the same same group as the swashies, Brigs and assassins out damaging you.<div></div><hr></blockquote>similar situation here.. 1.1-1.2 might get you in our top10 .. the exception i have is that our Ranger is usually in our top5  .. and our top5 changes up pretty regularly depending on who's timers are up etc etc.</div>

[KnightOfTheWo]

I'm thinking the main idea here is that the OP attempted to do a capsule summary something like "The State Of Rangers Today." Had some opinions thrown in of course, and not just objective data, but who is completely logical these days anyway? <span>:smileyhappy:</span>From all of my reading on this and other threads maybe this would be the brief version for those of you who skimmed through the OP's thread:Rangers Playability: Good to ExcellentRaid DPS & Playability: Sub Par to FairGroups & Soloing DPS & Playability: Good to ExcellentOverall Fun Factor: Good to ExcellentAnother poster mentioned that on a scale of: no changes, moderate changes and extreme changes it would take only moderate to adjust or "balance" the Ranger class in the high end raiding situation. I'd have to agree even though I'm not a heavy raider.So...the above hopefully will give at least some of you a decent summary of the state of rangers and DPS issues that have been written about in something like a few thousand pages of posts here. <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[LoreLady]

Lol - I dont even group anymore - I cant afford it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>similar situation here.. 1.1-1.2 might get you in our top10 .. the exception i have is that our Ranger is usually in our top5  .. and our top5 changes up pretty regularly depending on who's timers are up etc etc.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>So your Ranger is usually in the top 5? Behind who? The Assassin, Wizzy, Conjy, Brig and then the Ranger closely followed by the Swashy?? A better question Sirlutt would be, what kind of numbers are the top 5 putting out? I can pretty much assure that your Brigand will at the very least keep up with your Ranger when in the same group. Switch those groups around a bit, and he'll be out DPSing your ranger consistantly. 

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote>similar situation here.. 1.1-1.2 might get you in our top10 .. the exception i have is that our Ranger is usually in our top5  .. and our top5 changes up pretty regularly depending on who's timers are up etc etc. <hr> </blockquote></div></blockquote>So your Ranger is usually in the top 5? Behind who? The Assassin, Wizzy, Conjy, Brig and then the Ranger closely followed by the Swashy?? A better question Sirlutt would be, what kind of numbers are the top 5 putting out? I can pretty much assure that your Brigand will at the very least keep up with your Ranger when in the same group. Switch those groups around a bit, and he'll be out DPSing your ranger consistantly. <hr></blockquote>its highly subjective.. depends on alot of things .. however .. our top 5 changes up pretty regular.. its not a set order..  sometimes i top it.. sometimes the conj, or wiz or ranger.. and usually the top 5 are 1200-2000 .. again highly subjective.. depends what we are fighting.. what groups are.. what timers are up.  Our Brig does really well and yeah he prolyl does out DPS the ranger as much as anyone else.</div>

[Gerdos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>KnightOfTheWord wrote:<BR>I'm thinking the main idea here is that the OP attempted to do a capsule summary something like "The State Of Rangers Today." Had some opinions thrown in of course, and not just objective data, but who is completely logical these days anyway? <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN><BR><FONT color=#66cccc>Yep, i noticed a few rangers coming back into the game, so wanted to incapulate the situation rangers have found themselves in the last 9 months.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cccc>But mainly, to start giving my views and opinions and to <U>start setting the record straight and put an end to the biggest myth in game that rangers suck</U>, perpetuated by a lot of missunderstandings, missinterpretations and self depreciating mentality that isnt justified nor </FONT></P> <P>From all of my reading on this and other threads maybe this would be the brief version for those of you who skimmed through the OP's thread:<BR><BR>Rangers Playability: Good to Excellent<BR>Raid DPS & Playability: Sub Par to Fair    <FONT color=#66cccc>Raid DPS is Good to Great</FONT><BR>Groups & Soloing DPS & Playability: Good to Excellent<BR>Overall Fun Factor: Good to Excellent<BR><BR>Another poster mentioned that on a scale of: no changes, moderate changes and extreme changes it would take only moderate to adjust or "balance" the Ranger class in the high end raiding situation. I'd have to agree even though I'm not a heavy raider.<BR><FONT color=#66cccc>Yep, we need some adjustments, but moderate changes.</FONT> </P> <P>So...the above hopefully will give at least some of you a decent summary of the state of rangers and DPS issues that have been written about in something like a few thousand pages of posts here. <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN><BR><FONT color=#66cccc>I can only hope it does</FONT><BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank god for assassins ... without them to push me, i would have been content to do play at 80-90% efficiency.   Now, i've got to really work to 100% to get close to them.   Granted, they are ~20% better then us for DPS.  Thats assuming everything is on a equal footing.  However, there's no chance an assassin will get close to me in parse unless they are at least 75% both mastered/fabled.  Still, on this basis alone rangers do need some minor adjustments to reach their level.</P> <P>In my personal experiences, i can't comment on conjurers since we don't have a true raid conjurer to compare with in T7.  However, i've noticed Ishbu's parses, and i know there's no way i can reach his parse range.   (although, i'm basing this from only 1 parse where he posted 1900 zone wide for Lyceum ... in itself which is interesting, since none of Disso scouts parsed over 1500 on that occassion .... which i know they are capable of (as are rangers)).</P> <P>In our raids, after our main raid assassin (not counting conjurers), the necro's, wizards, rogues and myself (ranger) all jostle for the next places (warlocks need some/fixing from SOE).  Our necros and wizards are 95% mastered and fully fabled, while the rogues vary from 70-80% mastered, but fully fabled.  It doesnt matter who comes 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th .. as it reguarly changes from 1 encounter to the next.  Now, when we look at the raid parse for the whole raid, i come out 2nd everytime only behind the main assassin.  Necro, wizards, rogues and the other assassins make up the next places.</P> <P>For the most part, this is how the arrangement should be, and i know SOE are slowly working to achieve a system where no 1 class dominates DPS, but is shared by several classes which is conditional upon solo, group, raid and encounter. </P> <P>I'm 1 of the best equiped rangers gamewide, fully mastered (+2 months), 80% fabled, know my class extremely well.  Positioned in a good dps group for a raid, without DPS being built around me, i can reguarly parse:</P> <P>Lyceum:  1400-1600 zone wide.     Labs: 1350-1450 zone wide.</P> <P>I've seen 1 other ranger cross server, in the same parse range, and 2 other rangers cross server, who are approaching these numbers (they aren't fully geared up yet).  When i know i'm doing these numbers, i know rangers are still T1 DPS.  It isn't easy though, you have got to be tweaked, put in 100% effort ... and understand the subtle mechanics to optimise your DPS.</P> <P>One last thing, SOE do track combat data, extensively.  They know the averages and they know the low and high end ranger dps numbers.  When they know that the best rangers can still parse at the level i've indicated, they know we aren't broken, as do i, as does my guild, and as do a few others.  They aren't about to make any real changes to a class while the best rangers are still putting up great numbers, and more importantly while the AVG BASE number accross all situations is still decent.</P> <P>Our DPS is more then fine ... which is different from saying our DPS is fine as it is.  We need some minor changes in order to reach the same level as assassins, but until then ... i'm going to keep pushing the upper limits of what we can do under whatever situation we are in.</P> <P> </P>

[Jayad]

<P>Those are excellent parse #s, but I don't see why if you are 20% behind assassins, it's great?  Shouldn't they be equal to be great? </P> <P>Would those kind of numbers be acceptable in all but a handful of guilds?  Sure, but that's with top end gear and skills.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but a top end assassin would beat those almost all the time - along with several other classes being in the same range - all things being equal.</P>

[Tarryn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <P>But mainly, to start giving my views and opinions and to start setting the record straight and put an end to the biggest myth in game that rangers suck, perpetuated by a lot of missunderstandings, missinterpretations and self depreciating mentality that isnt justified nor</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>What ranger is saying that rangers "suck"?  We're not where we need to be.  That is not synonymous with "we R teh sux".  Sure, some rangers are rather bitter about some of the nerfs--who wouldn't be, when you go from being mediocre, to being a god, back to being mediocre? Some of the complaining should be taken with that in mind.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yep, we need some adjustments, but moderate changes. </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Again, I haven't seen much clamor for a complete revamp.  We need a boost in overall DPS to put us on par with assassins, as a fellow dedicated DPS class, and we need a few CAs reworked.  We're not far from where we should be, but all else being equal we're not quite right either.</FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Thank god for assassins ... without them to push me, i would have been content to do play at 80-90% efficiency.   Now, i've got to really work to 100% to get close to them.   Granted, they are ~20% better then us for DPS.  Thats assuming everything is on a equal footing.  However, there's no chance an assassin will get close to me in parse unless they are at least 75% both mastered/fabled.  Still, on this basis alone rangers do need some minor adjustments to reach their level.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>That's all most of us are asking.  You're preaching to the choir, here.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rinio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>TerriBlades wrote:]</P> <P>So your Ranger is usually in the top 5? Behind who? The Assassin, Wizzy, Conjy, Brig and then the Ranger closely followed by the Swashy?? A better question Sirlutt would be, what kind of numbers are the top 5 putting out? I can pretty much assure that your Brigand will at the very least keep up with your Ranger when in the same group. Switch those groups around a bit, and he'll be out DPSing your ranger consistantly. <BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you know what did i say earlier, its all about [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] group set up, imo you dont stick them in the same group ever unless your short on the clases you can use /boggle ALL CLASSES HAVE DIFFERENT NEEDS</P> <P> you dont give an inquisitor, coercer, and dirge to an assassin to boost dps. just the dirge will max his dps and give blades</P> <P>dont give agitate to a ranger give it to swash/brigande, it is melee only and would be over kill dps for an assassin to the point the wouldnt benefit from it like a rouge would.</P> <P>whats sad is this game is all about DPS this DPS that there no strategy like k all you rangers have to keep the bombs rooted/snared becasue if they get to the king they explode and AE the raid. Bring back stratrgy pls kk thx. 3 princes was a good start/attempt but something allitle more active like not only do the tanks have to switch but they spawn adds to that and tottaly immune to one scout class but the one they arent immune to gets bane damage vs them and they die hella fast.</P> <P>I guess chel'drak is kinda like that</P> <P>imo nothing beats the King fight in Riftseekers Sanctum in this game, man loved that fight</P> <P><STRONG>It is VERY sad this game is all about the DPS</STRONG></P>

[athitchcock]

<div></div>My guild had 2 rangers and one assassin raiding for a while. The other ranger and I always parsed neck and neck, often within 10 dps of each other. Our gear, AA's, etc were very similar. We were usually around 700dps which I realize is mediocre, but we were just beginning T7 raids focusing mainly on Lab runs. During these raids the assassin was always out dpsing us, consistently breaking 1k. Admittedly he was/is geared much better than I am.The other Ranger decides to betray. Apparently assassin masters are much easier to find and much cheaper than ranger masters, he scooped up several quickly and has some adept IIIs made. The following Lab raid he was breaking 1k dps, yet below the original assassin, while I remained at 700 ish. Gear didn't change, group setups didn't change, all that really changed was his class. He wasn't even fully used to playing an assassin yet. I think this is a clear illustration that we are lacking.It shouldn't be a surprise, assassin CA's are cast faster, and they rely on faster weapons. In the time it takes us to fire an arrow, CA and another arrow they have swung their knives multiple times and fired off several CAs. It also doesn't help that almost every AA ability is melee based, the only one that I can think of that specifically affects ranged is the ranged crit part of the AGI line.It's frustrating, but we are a pendulum class on a backswing.Gnaril<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr><p></p> <p>In my personal experiences, i can't comment on conjurers since we don't have a true raid conjurer to compare with in T7.  However, i've noticed Ishbu's parses, and i know there's no way i can reach his parse range.   (although, i'm basing this from only 1 parse where he posted 1900 zone wide for Lyceum ... in itself which is interesting, since none of Disso scouts parsed over 1500 on that occassion .... which i know they are capable of (as are rangers)).</p> <p>In our raids, after our main raid assassin (not counting conjurers), the necro's, wizards, rogues and myself (ranger) all jostle for the next places (warlocks need some/fixing from SOE).  Our necros and wizards are 95% mastered and fully fabled, while the rogues vary from 70-80% mastered, but fully fabled.  It doesnt matter who comes 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th .. as it reguarly changes from 1 encounter to the next.  Now, when we look at the raid parse for the whole raid, i come out 2nd everytime only behind the main assassin.  Necro, wizards, rogues and the other assassins make up the next places.</p> <p>For the most part, this is how the arrangement should be, and i know SOE are slowly working to achieve a system where no 1 class dominates DPS, but is shared by several classes which is conditional upon solo, group, raid and encounter. </p> <p>I'm 1 of the best equiped rangers gamewide, fully mastered (+2 months), 80% fabled, know my class extremely well.  Positioned in a good dps group for a raid, without DPS being built around me, i can reguarly parse:</p> <p>Lyceum:  1400-1600 zone wide.     Labs: 1350-1450 zone wide.</p>(cut out alot)<hr></blockquote>Ok - you do parse great.. But heres the thing.. Where 1350-1450 is pretty good, but its still nothing compared to an assassin.. A ranger in the best of groups and the best gear will put out 1.5kish dps (as you have stated your parsings in labs). However, an assassin is still able to maintain 1.8-1.9k in labs.And just FYI - thats what our 67 alt swash parses.</div>

[xandez]

But but... we are rangers, assassins arent as cool as we are!We have RANGED attacks ya know... eh, wait, so do they <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan<div></div>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>K uhm well i came back froma  14 month break and the ranger class feels different so does my coercer which i am very happy about.</P> <P>Anyways you all talking about parses etc well tbh my coercer is capable to outparse my ranger now (cant get a really good comparison yet cause ranger is 63 and coerer is 70) but the coercer was doing around 1 k dps in CERTAIN SITUATIONS while my ranger was only doing 800-900ish!</P> <P>Now the difference here is that my ranger can do burst damage every single fight (except when facing brawlers) My coercer on the other hand is flakey some fights around 1 k some fights even lower then 200 compare nek 3 for a ranger and a coercer.</P> <P>Nek 3 Coercer can charm a mob that does around 1800 dps (aka possesed crate) and next to that do a measly 500 dps tops BUT THEY ARE SHORT FIGHTS! the ranger on the other hand can do around 1k 1.2k on these fights still 50% less then coercer if ya count pet and coercer.</P> <P>Now if ya take a zone like vaults and fight the endboss coercer DPS is really less then 100 (without pet) cause the boss is mental resistant (very high mental resistant) the ranger can do a lot more sitting on 1400 dps!</P> <P>SO you are all stating that necro conj and assasin and other classes outparse yall but i believe its situational and in some situations ranger can outparse all other classes and in some situations they cant!</P> <P>Oh BTW coercer IS NOT A DPS class! but they do feel like that sometimes on all other mobs they parse really freaking high in vaults except endboss!</P>

[Teksun]

<div></div>I only have 2 comments on this thread (more later?)To OP: To say Ranger's got 'lazy' before the revamp is not fair. I did as much damage as I could without pulling agro. That's not lazy, that's survival.To Rinion. This game is NOT all about DPS. This CLASS is. That's all we really have...<div></div><p>Message Edited by Teksun on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 AM</span>

[Rahmn]

If you want the dps of an assassin, roll an assassin.  Stop trying to make all classes the same.  Let's just go back to Fighter Mage Thief and Priest then call it a day.

[Rinio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> I only have 2 comments on this thread (more later?)<BR><BR>To OP: To say Ranger's got 'lazy' before the revamp is not fair. I did as much damage as I could without pulling agro. That's not lazy, that's survival.<BR><BR><STRONG>To Rinion. This game is NOT all about DPS. This CLASS is. That's all we really have...</STRONG><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Teksun on <SPAN class=date_text>08-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>your right, and thats my mistake. I guess what I mean is that most end game raid guilds are all about the dps makeing our lack there of a huge problem. How many Rangers your guilds have? and if any Ill bet they are the first asked to sit when to many are on. well unless miracle arrow is needed? /boggle ^_^

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> I only have 2 comments on this thread (more later?)<BR><BR>To OP: To say Ranger's got 'lazy' before the revamp is not fair. I did as much damage as I could without pulling agro. That's not lazy, that's survival.<BR><BR><STRONG>To Rinion. This game is NOT all about DPS. This CLASS is. That's all we really have...</STRONG><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Teksun on <SPAN class=date_text>08-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>your right, and thats my mistake. I guess what I mean is that most end game raid guilds are all about the dps makeing our lack there of a huge problem. How many Rangers your guilds have? and if any Ill bet they are the first asked to sit when to many are on. well unless miracle arrow is needed? /boggle ^_^<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Besides Teksun and I, our guild has three other 70 rangers. We aren't the first to sit out, for what that's worth. That doesn't "prove" anything, it's just the way our guild handles it. <BR></P>

[LoreLady]

2 rangers - and the lower level one is already making a dirge to be his main <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><BR></P> <P>In my personal experiences, i can't comment on conjurers since we don't have a true raid conjurer to compare with in T7.  However, i've noticed Ishbu's parses, and i know there's no way i can reach his parse range.   (although, i'm basing this from only 1 parse where he posted 1900 zone wide for Lyceum ... in itself which is interesting, since none of Disso scouts parsed over 1500 on that occassion .... which i know they are capable of (as are rangers)).</P> <P>In our raids, after our main raid assassin (not counting conjurers), the necro's, wizards, rogues and myself (ranger) all jostle for the next places (warlocks need some/fixing from SOE).  Our necros and wizards are 95% mastered and fully fabled, while the rogues vary from 70-80% mastered, but fully fabled.  It doesnt matter who comes 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th .. as it reguarly changes from 1 encounter to the next.  Now, when we look at the raid parse for the whole raid, i come out 2nd everytime only behind the main assassin.  Necro, wizards, rogues and the other assassins make up the next places.</P> <P>For the most part, this is how the arrangement should be, and i know SOE are slowly working to achieve a system where no 1 class dominates DPS, but is shared by several classes which is conditional upon solo, group, raid and encounter. </P> <P>I'm 1 of the best equiped rangers gamewide, fully mastered (+2 months), 80% fabled, know my class extremely well.  Positioned in a good dps group for a raid, without DPS being built around me, i can reguarly parse:</P> <P>Lyceum:  1400-1600 zone wide.     Labs: 1350-1450 zone wide.</P>(cut out alot)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ok - you do parse great.. But heres the thing.. Where 1350-1450 is pretty good, but its still nothing compared to an assassin.. A ranger in the best of groups and the best gear will put out 1.5kish dps (as you have stated your parsings in labs). However, an assassin is still able to maintain 1.8-1.9k in labs.<BR><BR>And just FYI - thats what our 67 alt swash parses.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>not to mention thats about what I parse in labs and I dont concider myself to be a maxed out raiding wizard.  I'm still missing 9 or so(t7) damage masters, and my gear is so-so to the poor end of a raiding wizard.</P> <P>Doesn't something stickout like a sore thumb when other classes can beat or match your dps (on raids) when geared / spell quality  are of lesser value than your ranger.</P> <P>I have a ranger in my guild who struggles to hit 900 dps on a zone parse, he's far from raid geard/fully mastered, and i'd say we are equally skilled and geared comparitivly, and I can on most occasions double his dps on parses, and end zone parses 4-500 dps ahead of him.</P> <P>There is an issue with raiding rangers, You may be happy with where your at but you still aknowledge(sp?) that there are others who out parse you consistantly.</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 AM</span>

[Rinio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> I only have 2 comments on this thread (more later?)<BR><BR>To OP: To say Ranger's got 'lazy' before the revamp is not fair. I did as much damage as I could without pulling agro. That's not lazy, that's survival.<BR><BR><STRONG>To Rinion. This game is NOT all about DPS. This CLASS is. That's all we really have...</STRONG><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Teksun on <SPAN class=date_text>08-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>your right, and thats my mistake. I guess what I mean is that most end game raid guilds are all about the dps makeing our lack there of a huge problem. How many Rangers your guilds have? and if any Ill bet they are the first asked to sit when to many are on. well unless miracle arrow is needed? /boggle ^_^<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Besides Teksun and I, our guild has three other 70 rangers. We aren't the first to sit out, for what that's worth. That doesn't "prove" anything, it's just the way our guild handles it. <BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>5 rangers!!! wow!! Can i join? there are 5 of you so of course if all 5 are on some are going to be siting. unless you got a EQ1 fires of Heaven thing goin on.  I hear they have 24/7 Raids goin on over there with over 200 members or something like that.</P> <P>on the progresson server.</P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RinionX wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Teksun wrote: <div></div>I only have 2 comments on this thread (more later?)To OP: To say Ranger's got 'lazy' before the revamp is not fair. I did as much damage as I could without pulling agro. That's not lazy, that's survival.<strong>To Rinion. This game is NOT all about DPS. This CLASS is. That's all we really have...</strong> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Teksun on <span class="date_text">08-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:38 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>your right, and thats my mistake. I guess what I mean is that most end game raid guilds are all about the dps makeing our lack there of a huge problem. How many Rangers your guilds have? and if any Ill bet they are the first asked to sit when to many are on. well unless miracle arrow is needed? /boggle ^_^ <hr> </blockquote> <p>Besides Teksun and I, our guild has three other 70 rangers. We aren't the first to sit out, for what that's worth. That doesn't "prove" anything, it's just the way our guild handles it. </p><hr></blockquote>I'll add a little to that (Kae and I are in the same guild) He is one of our newest members and brings us to 5 Ranger MAIN toons. Four of us attend almost every raid. one is currently on haitus. Our guild leader is a Ranger so that helps. We are not an 'uber raiding guild' but we do hold our own...I just find it dissapointing to be on every raid and never hit top DPS on any encounter. That is all I have, that is all I do, I should be better at it.</div>

[Rinio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'll add a little to that (Kae and I are in the same guild) He is one of our newest members and brings us to 5 Ranger MAIN toons. Four of us attend almost every raid. one is currently on haitus. Our guild leader is a Ranger so that helps. We are not an 'uber raiding guild' but we do hold our own...<BR><BR>I just find it dissapointing to be on every raid and never hit top DPS on any encounter. That is all I have, that is all I do, I should be better at it.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*Snip* never? I can beat our assassin<BR>..for now >< just cause im better geared /flee he has a master 1 decap tho and gearing up fast</P> <P>What AA line did ya go? mine is [Removed for Content] atm but i want to go 4/4/4/4/8 STR and 4/4/4/5/8 AGI for poise and perfectionist. I know some prefure to go int for the poison..but unless you can get grouped with a fury every single raid I dont feel it is the correct route.. well unless you can gear up to have high int and str..but then youll be competeing with your bards for gear.</P> <P>I had our other ranger get that AA line I mentioned (he had Agi/int) and now he can own me on parse while in the same group even though my STR is maxed unbuffed and his isnt. </P> <P>Perfectionist and Poise are an absolute killer combo with Rain of Arrows and poise makes everything faster. The reality is the difference between 900dps and 1500 is ussualy only acouple thousand points, so the faster you get that sniper off with bonus damage and rain of arrows....ya, get it?  dots are great but what happens when the fight is over before the dot runs its course.</P> <P>his respec didnt cost him 10p =/</P> <P>off note...but /weaponstat !!! Im a newb just found out that existed! =*(</P>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2">I had a free AA respec, and the first couple are so cheap, that I decided to try a couple of combinatins.  This is purely my observation, but STR / AGI appears to be the better solo / group setup, where AGI / INT seems to be a better raid setup.  By moving my STR points over to the INT line, my average raid dps has gone up by a couple hundred points.  I now require a str potion to get to str cap when solo, but I'm still well over cap during raids.It <i>is</i> difficult getting used to the longer recast on Rain and Sniper again, but I can not argue with the results I'm seeing.  Granted, I'm certainly not in what you would call an uber raid guild, so our raid setup is not ideal, but I still think the INT line is better for a dedicated raiding ranger.  If you rarely raid, however, stay with the STR line.  You'll be much happier, I think.BTW...our guild assassin just reached raiding level a couple weeks ago and can already compete with me on the parser.  I'm <i>much</i> better equipped than her.  It's just the state of the game, at the moment.  Conjurors / Rogues / Assassins who can play well will out-dps us.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>08-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[Jay]

I haven't gotten Perfectionist yet, but I'm already considering moving the points from the STR line over to INT. Problem is, my existing INT is already so low, I'm not sure it'd provide much benefit. Does base INT make a noticeable difference in the effectiveness of the INT AA line? I'm raiding a couple times a week now, so it's a consideration.

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>I'll add a little to that (Kae and I are in the same guild) He is one of our newest members and brings us to 5 Ranger MAIN toons. Four of us attend almost every raid. one is currently on haitus. Our guild leader is a Ranger so that helps. We are not an 'uber raiding guild' but we do hold our own...I just find it dissapointing to be on every raid and never hit top DPS on any encounter. That is all I have, that is all I do, I should be better at it.</blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>I had the same issue.  I was originally Main Tank with my 70 guard and my retired ranger was 60.  I gave the MT position to someone who would enjoy it more than me and is a better tank.  They already had 3 Rangers and 2 Zerkers .. so staying a ranger or betraying my guard werent really options.  So I betrayed and geared up.  One of the other rangers betrayed his Guard Alt to zerker, the other switched mains to a Necro and i went assassin.  the remain ranger plays her class very very very well and keeps up with everyone on parses.  The guild parses 15-22K as a raid, and the top 10 are all over 1K in DPS, top 5 usually over 1500.  Its not for everyone, but betraying to assassin both suited my play style.. and made me concistently one of the top DPS.  Not top of every fight, but the longer the fight lasted, the higher on the chart i was .. especially on single targets ... mutliple targets it was alot tougher against almsot fully mastered necors, conjs and warlocks .. and expecially the ranger.. she was awesome at AE fights.If your feeling stuck and unwanted as a Ranger .. rather than sit and pray for something to change, when devs have posted that according to their ideals .. the ranger class is where it should be .. take control of your own situation.. change what you CAN change and enjoy the game.someone once said : "Dont whine and succumb .. adapt and over come."..oh yah.. that was me.. lol</div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>If your feeling stuck and unwanted as a Ranger .. rather than sit and pray for something to change, when devs have posted that according to their ideals .. the ranger class is where it should be .. take control of your own situation.. change what you CAN change and enjoy the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know where you're coming from in saying this, but it's safe to say that Teksun isn't unhappy with the game or feeling unwanted as a ranger. He and I are both in that apparent minority who actually enjoy the class, but would like a little nudge or two to help us attain those high DPS numbers that our assassin brethren can reach more easily. (No, I don't mean that it's "easy" to be an assassin, but I think we can agree that they are able to put out more damage more easily than a comparable ranger.) </P><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class=date_text>08-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Agreed.  It's still an awesome class to play, and just a load of fun.  And as long as I'm guild and raid leader...ummm...well, let's just say I don't think rangers will be denied a spot.  That doesn't mean, however, that I wouldn't like to see them made more viable.I personally don't feel that fighting for one's class to be improved when SOE has stated they're fine is necessarily asking for the 'easy' button.  I don't mind doing a LOT of work to get high dps numbers.  I'll even do MORE work if they would just make it possible to do greater (read: balanced) dps.</font><div></div>

[Sirlutt]

Actually Jay i find the assassin harder to play than the ranger for one simple thing .. while we both have to be behind the mob to do our best damage, i have to be behind it, and close to it.  A Slight change in the posture of the mob from punting the tank and I am having to move, realign myself and in the middle of a thick multiple mob fight, thats not easy.on the Ranger it was a little easier to just take a few steps one way the other and still be in range and behind the mob.  Switching targets generally meant that i was still in range and still behind the mob even if the next target was a few feet away.  As an assassin my icons go red pretty often.. lol. and no sooner do i get into position behind them sometimes than they are dead and i am moving again .. thats why i love the logner single target fights because i can get position and really go to town.<div></div>

[Rinio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>Actually Jay i find the assassin harder to play than the ranger for one simple thing .. while we both have to be behind the mob to do our best damage, i have to be behind it, and close to it.  A Slight change in the posture of the mob from punting the tank and I am having to move, realign myself and in the middle of a thick multiple mob fight, thats not easy.<BR><BR>on the Ranger it was a little easier to just take a few steps one way the other and still be in range and behind the mob.  Switching targets generally meant that i was still in range and still behind the mob even if the next target was a few feet away.  As an assassin my icons go red pretty often.. lol. and no sooner do i get into position behind them sometimes than they are dead and i am moving again .. thats why i love the logner single target fights because i can get position and really go to town.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>nah BS you only have to be behind it for afew CAs. posistioning isnt even a factor unless you want to count the sweet spot a ranger has to find to maximize both ranged and melee dps.</P> <P>unless you lag alot positioning should never be considered 'skill' knowing what CAs to use and when to use um, I guess that can be. other then that just a bunch of button pounding </P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>RinionX wrote:<div></div>nah BS you only have to be behind it for afew CAs. posistioning isnt even a factor unless you want to count the sweet spot a ranger has to find to maximize both ranged and melee dps. <p>unless you lag alot positioning should never be considered 'skill' knowing what CAs to use and when to use um, I guess that can be. other then that just a bunch of button pounding </p><hr></blockquote>I think I could comment better if i understood what you were trying to say.. i'll give it a shot though.If your first statement is in reference to Rangers, then you might wanna look at some of the attacks closer.. you do have a number of them, ranged and not ranged that are positional.  Aside from that a lot of them require stealth and the attack that puts you into stealth is positional.  Position is important.  If your not making sure your in good positon then that can account for lost DPS.  Its tough to use the right CA when you think it needs to be used if your not in postion.. so i think positioning yourself is a skill .. especially for rangers in finding that "sweet spot" .. if your one of the rangers who do that then you probably have the same issues I have as an assassin when targets change.still it'd suck to be a wizard and be able to face backwards and still pound buttons <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Jayad]

<P>Jay,</P> <P>I do like <EM>playing</EM> a ranger.  SOE is just making it very hard to like <EM>being</EM> a ranger.</P>

[Jay]

<P>Sure, Xney. I hear ya. </P> <P>Sirlutt... didn't I just say that playing an assassin is not any "easier" than playing a ranger? I think I did <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>FWIW - I meant that assassins can more regularly achieve higher DPS values than a ranger without relying so heavily on Master 1s, Fabled gear, Mastercrafted poisons, and top-of-the-line ammunition. (Oh wait they don't have to rely on ANY ammunition, my bad.) </P> <P>Considering that you and many other assassins just spent 30 pages telling us how rangers cannot hope to achieve the DPS that assassins can, I don't think there's much argument with the above point, yo. </P> <P>Word. Peace out homie. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <p>Sure, Xney. I hear ya. </p> <p>Sirlutt... didn't I just say that playing an assassin is not any "easier" than playing a ranger? I think I did <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>FWIW - I meant that assassins can more regularly achieve higher DPS values than a ranger without relying so heavily on Master 1s, Fabled gear, Mastercrafted poisons, and top-of-the-line ammunition. (Oh wait they don't have to rely on ANY ammunition, my bad.) </p> <p>Considering that you and many other assassins just spent 30 pages telling us how rangers cannot hope to achieve the DPS that assassins can, I don't think there's much argument with the above point, yo. </p> <p>Word. Peace out homie. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><hr></blockquote>i was all into your post until the last few lines when i realised its just the crunk and mary j talkin .. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </div>

[Jay]

<P>ROFL well yeah g-money... that and the malt liquor... that's just how I roll, homeskillet!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>/puts Fat Boys "Crushin" in the tape playa and goes skeeza-huntin'</P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <p>ROFL well yeah g-money... that and the malt liquor... that's just how I roll, homeskillet!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>/puts Fat Boys "Crushin" in the tape playa and goes skeeza-huntin'</p><hr></blockquote>yeah yeah yeah ... cos thats how you roll ..these forums mods are still tryin to catch me ridin dirty..yo.and stuff.*look out belowwwwww!!! falling IQ*</div>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>*look out belowwwwww!!! falling IQ*<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thank the stars for safe fall!!  :smileywink:<BR>