double attack nerfed to melee only

[BSbon]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=achievements&message.id=3780" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=achievements&message.id=3780</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thought some of you might be interrested in reading this.</DIV>

[USAFJeeper]

Might want to fix your title, that was not a nerf.  It fixed a bug.

[Gareorn]

<DIV>That is an interesting thread.  I hate seeing any class getting hit with the nerfbat though.  And, I don't buy it anymore when developers tell us that a skill is doing something they never intended.  I always mentally translate that into "we didn't test this properly and it turned out to be too powerful when used in a particular way, so we are going to remove that particular aspect of the skill.":smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Serventof Wrath]

Now that the double attack AAs will no longer work with ranged weapons it just ensures we'll get a double attack AA with EoF <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rinio]

<DIV>About time, and im sure your right we will get ranged double atk in EoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>only reason we didnt this go was becasue those AAs are shared with Assassins (and obviously more geared to them =/ thats besides the point) giving our archetype double attack would of overpowered Assassins alot imo.</DIV> <DIV> so we simply didnt get it the first go around because sony was too lazy to make class specific ones so just cut n paste ours from asassins and called it predator..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Whole idea of being the same class from different sides of the track is annoying to me. it was never designed to be PVP so why the hell did they add the whole good vs Evil Realm vs Realm aspect.</DIV>

[Marcuzs]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <DIV>About time, and im sure your right we will get ranged double atk in EoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>only reason we didnt this go was becasue those AAs are shared with Assassins (and obviously more geared to them =/ thats besides the point) giving our archetype double attack would of overpowered Assassins alot imo.</DIV> <DIV> so we simply didnt get it the first go around because sony was too lazy to make class specific ones so just cut n paste ours from asassins and called it predator..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Whole idea of being the same class from different sides of the track is annoying to me. it was never designed to be PVP so why the hell did they add the whole good vs Evil Realm vs Realm aspect.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Think you missed the guys point. We wont get a ranged double atk, we will get a regular double attack now that it wont work on bow. </DIV>

[Rinio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marcuzs wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Think you missed the guys point. We wont get a ranged double atk, we will get a regular double attack now that it wont work on bow. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>oh =( well! I hope so! will just back up my claim that sony Hates Rangers! yaaay!</P> <P>its going to be sad if sigil sells out development rights to Vanguard =/ Rangers look like they will be worth it there!<BR></P> <P>so. anyone wanna buy Rinion on the SE? claymore done with Great gear almost all fabled none of it relic so yo can easily become  an Assassin /chuckle</P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marcuzs wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <DIV>About time, and im sure your right we will get ranged double atk in EoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>only reason we didnt this go was becasue those AAs are shared with Assassins (and obviously more geared to them =/ thats besides the point) giving our archetype double attack would of overpowered Assassins alot imo.</DIV> <DIV> so we simply didnt get it the first go around because sony was too lazy to make class specific ones so just cut n paste ours from asassins and called it predator..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Whole idea of being the same class from different sides of the track is annoying to me. it was never designed to be PVP so why the hell did they add the whole good vs Evil Realm vs Realm aspect.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Think you missed the guys point. We wont get a ranged double atk, we will get a regular double attack now that it wont work on bow. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>yup I was being sarcastic when i posted we would be getting a double attack hence the :smileytongue:<BR>

[Jayad]

We'll get a mandatory ability where we do 600 dps no matter what, all the time, but can never go higher or lower.  Then SOE will say we're fine because our average DPS on the servers is okay.

[Iseabeil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>That is an interesting thread.  I hate seeing any class getting hit with the nerfbat though.  And, I don't buy it anymore when developers tell us that a skill is doing something they never intended.  I always mentally translate that into "we didn't test this properly and it turned out to be too powerful when used in a particular way, so we are going to remove that particular aspect of the skill.":smileyhappy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Once, a good while ago, the two-handed wurmslayer worked for rogue's one-handed AA line. Thus, a rogue was able to have the stats and ratings that ignored the penalties we are supposed to get in return for the advantages. Of course it was never intended that we were to be able to do that, it would have been insane to even think we were gonna keep that ability, two handed and 72% double attack?!, and sure enough, its impossible to do today. It was no nerf when that was fixed, anyone that didnt realize it was wrong would have to been blind.</P> <P>Now, we have a situation were several classes are able to spout out ranged dps beyond what rangers can do by just using ranged autoattack, due again to this double attack line that has 'malfunctioned' before. Even tho rangers are underperforming in general due to other mechanics, the idea that I as a swashie or even my monk alt has the abilities to do equal or more dps in a ranged fight then my ranger playing fianceé is ludicrous.  And still it happens. Making double attack only work on melee will not fix rangers, but it will remove one of the issues that works against the people playing rangers. With class specific AA's in EoF, I wouldnt be surpriced if double attack becomes split into 'melee double attack' and 'ranged double attack' with slightly varying mechanics. Just because somethin lays on the bottom right now doesnt mean it will stay there.</P> <P>Bottom line: I have two lvl 70/50 characters with double attacks in their AA tree. The guy that brought this issue up on AA forums and got a dev to say it was working wrong is also playing a class with it. There are exceptions as always, however most people I have come across that have it all agree that *we shouldnt be able to do this*, we dun feel nerfed by it as it shouldnt be working that way. When a ranger can debuff a mob as good or better as me, then its my territory bein overlapsed, when I can dps as good or better as a ranger their territory is overlapsed.</P> <P> </P>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Hmmm...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen this come up several times before.  Apparently some folks around here do not understand the term "Nerf." </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Straight from wikipedia:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT size=1>A nerf is a change to the rules of a </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_game" target=_blank><FONT size=1>computer game</FONT></A><FONT size=1> that weakens a certain object or ability.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>The term comes from the childsafe</FONT> <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf" target=_blank>Nerf</A> <FONT size=1>toys of soft foam and plastic, which are often made in the shape of guns, bats, or other weapons. The term originated in the MMORPG </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online" target=_blank><FONT size=1>Ultima Online</FONT></A><FONT size=1>, where for a long period of time the sword skill was incredibly powerful. The designers eventually lowered its effectiveness, causing massive player outcry; they claimed that it seemed as though they were hitting with "Nerf Bats".</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Game Balance</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Nerfing is an important concept in </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_balance" target=_blank><FONT size=1>game balance</FONT></A><FONT size=1>. Nerfs can have a dramatic impact on the intricate balance between different classes, items, and skills, making them often highly controversial. But even the most controversial nerf can be accepted by the gaming community, if it's clear that the nerf has improved the game balance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Among game developers, </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORPG" target=_blank><FONT size=1>MMORPG</FONT></A><FONT size=1> designers in particular are especially likely to nerf aspects of a game in order to maintain game balance. Occasionally a new feature (such as an item, class, or skill) may be made too powerful, too cheap, or too easily obtained to the extent that it unbalances the game system. This is sometimes due to an unforeseen bug or method of using or acquiring the object that was not considered by the developers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>The games most frequently adjusted for game balance are </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer" target=_blank><FONT size=1>multiplayer</FONT></A><FONT size=1> online computer games, especially </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORPG" target=_blank><FONT size=1>MMORPGs</FONT></A><FONT size=1> and highly competitive games such as tactical </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-person_shooter" target=_blank><FONT size=1>first-person shooters</FONT></A><FONT size=1> and </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_strategy" target=_blank><FONT size=1>real-time strategy</FONT></A><FONT size=1> games. As nerfing requires the ability to modify the game software, it is usually not possible on </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Console_game" target=_blank><FONT size=1>console games</FONT></A><FONT size=1> once they are released. However, a similar phenomenon can sometimes be seen when console games are updated or revised. For example, </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Kombat_3" target=_blank><FONT size=1>Mortal Kombat 3</FONT></A><FONT size=1> introduced a new character named </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabal" target=_blank><FONT size=1>Kabal</FONT></A><FONT size=1> who quickly became popular as players found it easy to perform high-damage combos with him, including at least one that did 70% damage. The revised Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 debuted later with yet more new characters and "more balanced" gameplay, which included significantly decreasing the damage inflicted by Kabal's combos.</FONT></P> <P><A target=_blank><FONT size=1></FONT></A></P><FONT size=1>Anti-Botting Nerfs</FONT> <P><FONT size=1>Nerfs are often implemented as an anti-</FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_game_bot" target=_blank><FONT size=1>botting</FONT></A><FONT size=1> tactic.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>A classic scenario is a situation where a player runs a bot to gather items of loot by killing monsters repeatedly. Nerfing the drop rate of monsters seems like a reasonable solution to lower the incentive for botting. However, this may also harm legitimate players, as they now have a much lower reward for their play time. Excessive nerfing may also frustrate legitimate players to the point where they begin botting themselves, simply so they can spend their time playing instead of constantly gathering resources.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Additionally, there are many professional players that play for the explicit purpose of gathering resources to sell at </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-commerce" target=_blank><FONT size=1>e-commerce</FONT></A><FONT size=1> websites. Nerfing the drop rate of an item merely increases the scarcity, driving up the price, and increasing the profits from botting in this manner.</FONT></P> <P><A target=_blank><FONT size=1></FONT></A></P><FONT size=1>Other Considerations</FONT> <P><FONT size=1>Game designers must also be careful to ensure that nerfs don't inadvertently decrease a game's strategic depth. For example, in a hypothetical early version of </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess" target=_blank><FONT size=1>chess</FONT></A><FONT size=1> with half the number of pawns, players might complain that the queen was "too powerful". An inexperienced game designer might nerf the queen by allowing it to only move like a pawn, but this loses the point of the queen and decreases the strategic depth. A better solution might be to simply increase the number of pawns.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Sometimes designers will nerf objects that are particularly useful in </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerleveling" target=_blank><FONT size=1>powerleveling</FONT></A><FONT size=1>. This is to prevent players from rapidly levelling characters to be sold off on </FONT><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-commerce" target=_blank><FONT size=1>e-commerce</FONT></A><FONT size=1> websites.</FONT></P> <P><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_%28computer_gaming%29" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_%28computer_gaming%29</A></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gareorn on <span class=date_text>08-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 AM</span>