Why we as rangers should NOT be near the top of DPS.

[Ofzi]

<DIV>Ok, really simple. Any other scout must usually be within melee distance to do there most damaging attacks. A ranger does not. A Ranger can hit 2 or 3(more if coupled with speed debuffs) times before a creature even comes within melee range. Very simple. It is the price you pay for being ranged. </DIV> <DIV>Now, i can understand why a whole lot of rangers are defecting over to assasins since most seam to be high level group raiders, where it doesnt matter if a ranger can get in 2 or 3 shots before entering melee range since they have tank that takes the heat and so the group doesnt require that and therefore the rangers switch to a class that can add more damage. But I read a post where a ranger said when hunting, he would reduce the targets HP down to 10-20% by the time he came within melee range. For soloing and small mobs, this is invaluble.</DIV>

[Gailstryd]

<DIV>bah i should have just left what i had said but instead i'll just say....hmm no I guess it's best not to speak to the small minded.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gailstryder on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 AM</span>

[Maeryth]

Assassins have 3 Ranged Attacks. 1 from Behind, 1 while Flanking, One 2 shot from Any direction. Properly fired from a 62 Assassin, A Level 65 Mob is dropped to Redline on the pull. That's before the arsenal of Melee attacks available when the mob gets there. Did I mention this is for Solo Assassins? In groups there are nifty skills like concealemnt where you can fire all of your Stealthed attacks in under 7 seconds. Option B against Solo mobs is to just stand there and Auto Attack it to death faster than a Ranger can. Rangers ARE Ranged and their Ranged abilities should match the same abilities of a Stealthed Assassin. They do not. Assassins can Literally stand still and press buttons and do more damage than a Ranger can. It is wrong. It needs to be Fixed.<div></div>

[arkkon]

<DIV>Conjurors can outdps us at the same distance from the target. Conjurors solo better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your very "special" attempt to create drama is ...  Im glad that you couldnt keep that in your head.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because after all ZOmG u can PwnZor Solo Mobs FtW. Dont tell Soe or we will get nerfed. </DIV>

[justright]

trolls are better off on a strict diet<div></div>

[Teksun]

Throw him a goat, maybe he'll crawl back under the bridge.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

Ignorant are we? Give me your name/class/server/level please, and I will send you a tell on what rangers actually do in fights.. Clearly you dont know, and dont even try to say otherwise.Just for the record though, rangers spend there time 90% in melee range. So dont try and tell me otherwise.

[Jay]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>Ignorant are we? Give me your name/class/server/level please, and I will send you a tell on what rangers actually do in fights.. Clearly you dont know, and dont even try to say otherwise.<BR><BR>Just for the record though, rangers spend there time 90% in melee range. So dont try and tell me otherwise.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't know what's more disappointing, the OP being convinced that we should have to pay a figurative price for ranged DPS in addition to the literal one we pay for ammo... or the really arrogant, [Removed for Content] responses to him. </P> <P>Lore, you really need to lighten up, man. Your attitude is getting utterly ridiculous. Maybe *you* spend 90% of your time in melee range; that doesn't mean any other ranger does or should. Please, just stop asserting your opinions as facts. And be careful throwing the word "ignorant" around after claiming that your so-called "ranger dance" (which doesn't even work) was an exploit that raised your DPS considerably, when all it really did was waste time. </P> <P>Do yourself a favor and relax. Stop demanding ppl's names and servers so you can send them tells to set them straight on the 'right' way to be a ranger. Can you see how arrogant and presumptuous that is? If you really want to help, OFFER to talk to someone in-game. Provide YOUR name and server to someone so they can contact you if they so desire. </P> <P>Would you like it if I started sending you tells to set you straight on the 'right' way to use English grammar and spelling? No, you're fine writing however you please... and the rest of us are fine playing our characters however we please.</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Ofzion wrote:Ok, really simple. Any other scout must usually be within melee distance to do there most damaging attacks. A ranger does not. A Ranger can hit 2 or 3(more if coupled with speed debuffs) times before a creature even comes within melee range. Very simple. It is the price you pay for being ranged.Now, i can understand why a whole lot of rangers are defecting over to assasins since most seam to be high level group raiders, where it doesnt matter if a ranger can get in 2 or 3 shots before entering melee range since they have tank that takes the heat and so the group doesnt require that and therefore the rangers switch to a class that can add more damage. But I read a post where a ranger said when hunting, he would reduce the targets HP down to 10-20% by the time he came within melee range. For soloing and small mobs, this is invaluble.<hr></blockquote>Then all mages should have their DPS nerfed according to your theory. Btw, you're about as bright as doornail.

[Rahmn]

Thats the dumbest post I have seen in a long...., well not that long, but it's still the dumbest.

[leafnin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ofzion wrote:<BR>Ok, really simple. Any other scout must usually be within melee distance to do there most damaging attacks. A ranger does not. A Ranger can hit 2 or 3(more if coupled with speed debuffs) times before a creature even comes within melee range. Very simple. It is the price you pay for being ranged.<BR>Now, i can understand why a whole lot of rangers are defecting over to assasins since most seam to be high level group raiders, where it doesnt matter if a ranger can get in 2 or 3 shots before entering melee range since they have tank that takes the heat and so the group doesnt require that and therefore the rangers switch to a class that can add more damage. But I read a post where a ranger said when hunting, he would reduce the targets HP down to 10-20% by the time he came within melee range. For soloing and small mobs, this is invaluble.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Then all mages should have their DPS nerfed according to your theory. Btw, you're about as bright as doornail.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/agree with the above. </P> <P> </P> <P>To OP --  Everyone makes tradeoffs to do what they do.  If you haven't figured it out what they are by now I'd recommend rolling an alt of the class and playing it.  You'll start to see what the class is about...maybe.</P> <P> </P> <P>Falcon/Peregrian</P><p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:40 AM</span>

[Carna]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:Then all mages should have their DPS nerfed according to your theory. Btw, you're about as bright as doornail.<hr></blockquote>Not the same issue... Mages have no easy means to mitigate aggro and are squishier. The mages ability to deal damage without engaging the target is compensated by a significantly higher degree of vulnerability than the Ranger.Now even given the OPs point... which I do think has some small degree of merit... I think the gap between most Rangers and their T1 peers is too large and the cost of arrows is too great even if one were to accept the OPs point as valid. As it stands Rangers pay a fair chunk of change for their range advantage, and so one can't really say that they should pay twice for that in diminished performance.Rangers pay cash with each and every arrow shot for their ranged advantage.And Jay has a very good point. There needs to be more rational discussion and less religious certitude on this forum in my personal opinion.</div>

[Ofzi]

<DIV>I guess my stealth wasn't as good as it could be. I am really an assasin planting lies about how the ranger is ok and doesn't need to be changed. Thus ensuring that the ranger will stay weak. How diabolical. Now to answer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am as bright as a doornail......ok</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was not saying that then ranger is without fault. I don't have a high level ranger so I don't know the cost of arrows that high so that would be in fact a quite bad thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And my entire point is that we should not be at the TOP of DPS not we should be at the lower end. Thats all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And a reply to the magic thing. There was a post made here a couple days ago where someone was complaining about not being able to fire an arrow while within melee range and made the comparison that mages can do it so why can't we. There was post after post saying that was comparing apples to oranges. Yet here it suddenly makes sense?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if the above posted is correct in saying that an assasin can get a creature into the red before coming into melee range, then that simply is not right. They should NOT be able to do that. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Believe it or not, I just posted this not to start a flame war but because I kept seeing thread after thread about how so many rangers are betraying to become assasins and how the rangers attacks arent close to an assasin. Do I think the ranger needs to be given a damage boost, yes but not to the extent of an assasin. Phew</DIV>

[Prandtl]

A blatant trolling thread.  Mods pelase lock!

[Ragepowers]

<DIV>I'm hungary.:smileymad:</DIV>

[Mirdo]

To the OP, Most of the arguments rage around the raiding game and where Ranger DPS lies there. There are a number of classes that many believe can do as much or more damage than a Ranger, yet bring more utility to the raid. Also, the discrepancy really starts to show itself in guilds that have a good mix of classes that can build very high DPS raids up. It is here you will see Brigands (that have AoE immunity btw) hitting 14-1500 DPS along with swashies, Conjorers & Assassins (both closer to 1800 on our raids). The figures are approximate and from my guilds raids - people can take or leave them as they please). The thing that is annoying the raiding Rangers (and causing some high end guilds to stop recruiting Rangers) is that you can have Ranger damage (or better) in a number of classes that are frankly more useful. However, not all raid make ups will see this. In my previous guild my 1-1.1k DPS topped the parser most of the time - it's nowhere near enough in my current guild (even though I've improved on that figure with better gear and playstyle now).  Raid guild DPS will vary - even the high end guilds have a mix of raid styles ranging from extreme DPS to a more moderate style. Also in these guilds, many mob AoE's start to become a non or very minor issue.  Players can hit 7-8k specific resists so the damage is mitigated as low as possible. The healers then just top up players as required - although there are some mobs that still make you pay if you get caught. Any number of people will disagree with my last few paragraphs and the debate will rage on. All I will say that I've found it best not to make too sweeping a statement or post opinion where other posters are discussing something you might not have experienced first hand (raiding seems to be the most extreme example of this - the game changes a lot between grouping and raiding). Even if your comment are valid, when opinons are so strongly divided it migth be best to weigh in on the matters you have more experience ( I don't post on solo issues any more because I rarely solo these days f.ex). There are many people on these forums waiting to jump down your throat. Lol - I just re-read this and it sounds like a more polite version of 'Lern2play N00b, come back when you raid'. It's honestly not meant to sound like that - sigh. Mirdo. <div></div>

[Ofzi]

<DIV>Mirdo, you are 100% right. I apologize if my comments sounded like me trivializing your(the rangers the are uhappy) situation. In fact, looking back, I was refering to grouping and soloing, not raiding so for that again, I am sorry if I misled you. Since I don't raid, I don't comment on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I think the best any RPG(MMO or not) of createing classes was Diablo 2. Each class brought something very useful to the table. I loved the Necromancer in that game and would love for the EQ2 necro to be like that but I digress.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not a troll(i dont even play one in game lol)</DIV>

[Ranja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ofzion wrote:<BR> <DIV>I guess my stealth wasn't as good as it could be. I am really an assasin planting lies about how the ranger is ok and doesn't need to be changed. Thus ensuring that the ranger will stay weak. How diabolical. Now to answer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am as bright as a doornail......ok</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was not saying that then ranger is without fault. I don't have a high level ranger so I don't know the cost of arrows that high so that would be in fact a quite bad thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>And my entire point is that we should not be at the TOP of DPS not we should be at the lower end. Thats all.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And a reply to the magic thing. There was a post made here a couple days ago where someone was complaining about not being able to fire an arrow while within melee range and made the comparison that mages can do it so why can't we. There was post after post saying that was comparing apples to oranges. Yet here it suddenly makes sense?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if the above posted is correct in saying that an assasin can get a creature into the red before coming into melee range, then that simply is not right. They should NOT be able to do that. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Believe it or not, I just posted this not to start a flame war but because I kept seeing thread after thread about how so many rangers are betraying to become assasins and how the rangers attacks arent close to an assasin. Do I think the ranger needs to be given a damage boost, yes but not to the extent of an assasin. Phew</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Congratulations you figured out that Rangers should be between 1 and 24! <BR>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Ofzion wrote:<div>Mirdo, you are 100% right. I apologize if my comments sounded like me trivializing your(the rangers the are uhappy) situation. In fact, looking back, I was refering to grouping and soloing, not raiding so for that again, I am sorry if I misled you. Since I don't raid, I don't comment on it.</div><hr></blockquote>I'm not really sure how you could have missed that the DPS issues were only with end game raiding.  It is plastered all over basically every ranger DPS thread out there.  Very few people in any recent time have said we are even remotely broken in a group or solo scenerio.</div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 AM</span>

[Mirdo]

Oh wow - Diablo II - I loved hardcore. I miss the rush you get when a mistake means you can lose weeks of work. No experience I've ever had in other RPG/MMO games close to the feeling of closely avoiding death in a permadeath game (or the empty feeling in the pit of your stomach when your pride and joy bites the dust). That said, I did like the penalties in EQ1 - not as severe as permadeath but enough to give you a scare deep in a tricky dungeon - especially if you soloed there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (oh no - incoming flamewar about harsh/light death penalties) <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Mirdo. <div></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mirdo wrote:<BR>Oh wow - Diablo II - I loved hardcore. I miss the rush you get when a mistake means you can lose weeks of work. No experience I've ever had in other RPG/MMO games close to the feeling of closely avoiding death in a permadeath game (or the empty feeling in the pit of your stomach when your pride and joy bites the dust). That said, I did like the penalties in EQ1 - not as severe as permadeath but enough to give you a scare deep in a tricky dungeon - especially if you soloed there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>(oh no - incoming flamewar about harsh/light death penalties) <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Mirdo.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No flame here.  I totally agree.  I found the death penalty in EQ1 (Kunark and before) very brutal.  You were forced to recover your corpse, no matter where it was, or you'd lose your gear.  The Plane of Fear was especially bad, often corpse runs lasted 6+ hours and you usually ended up dying a couple more times before you could get to your original corpse.  To be honest, I'm glad those days are over.  It did add to the excitement, especially the first time you enetered a new zone.  It was nothing as severe as Diablo 2, but then my Diablo characters died so often, I rarely had much time on them anyway.<BR>

[Jowita]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P><BR> </P> <P>I don't know what's more disappointing, 1) the OP being convinced that we should have to pay a figurative price for ranged DPS in addition to the literal one we pay for ammo... or 2) the really arrogant, [Removed for Content] responses to him.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I vote for 2.</P> <P> </P> <P>Jowita<BR></P>

[Carna]

<div><blockquote><hr>Prandtl wrote:<div></div>A blatant trolling thread.  Mods pelase lock!<hr></blockquote>You're confusing different opinion with troll.</div>

[TaleraRis]

Speaking as a soloer on this... You see our ranged attacks as an advantage. I see them as a liability. We have maybe, what, 2 skills we can cast on the move? The others require us to be at least standing still, some require position or stealth and some require all three. I have to be at range to do the best damage I can do to my opponent. My melee skills are laughable, frankly, in comparison to our sister class. So I have to get those heavy shots off before that mob gets to me. I have very few tools to get that mob away again-4 second root, 4 second stun, a snare that hasn't been very effective soloing-so my damage needs to be done before the mob is in my face. Assassins have the melee skills that we don't. They don't need to get the mob down as far in health before it gets into melee range, because they have the tools they need to survive when it's down to one-on-one time. Rangers lack in that department. And whoever said mages are squishy, I'll tell you. I'm squishy, too. I don't last anymore against a heroic than my conjuror would being beaten on repeatedly, but she has tools, ie her pet, that prevent that from happening and allow her to take on tougher encounters. I just have little old froggy me. <div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:Speaking as a soloer on this...You see our ranged attacks as an advantage. I see them as a liability. We have maybe, what, 2 skills we can cast on the move? The others require us to be at least standing still, some require position or stealth and some require all three. I have to be at range to do the best damage I can do to my opponent. My melee skills are laughable, frankly, in comparison to our sister class.So I have to get those heavy shots off before that mob gets to me. I have very few tools to get that mob away again-4 second root, 4 second stun, a snare that hasn't been very effective soloing-so my damage needs to be done before the mob is in my face. Assassins have the melee skills that we don't. They don't need to get the mob down as far in health before it gets into melee range, because they have the tools they need to survive when it's down to one-on-one time. Rangers lack in that department.And whoever said mages are squishy, I'll tell you. I'm squishy, too. I don't last anymore against a heroic than my conjuror would being beaten on repeatedly, but she has tools, ie her pet, that prevent that from happening and allow her to take on tougher encounters. I just have little old froggy me.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You're level 54. You don't have any problems compaired to any other Scout your level... At lvl 52 I betrayed my Ranger to Assassin and this weekend I'm betraying him back.There's precious little difference between an Assassin and a Ranger soloing singles.... soloing groups is MUCH easier with a Ranger especially against groups. My lvl 70 Brigand is really strong against single oponents as he can tear their mitigation right down, but he can't have a group of 3 mobs all nearly dead before they get to him.All the scouts have pros and cons, and the timing required to solo a Ranger well is most definately the most taxing of any scout... but once you have it down pat, soloing with a Ranger is a breeze.Yes robes have lots of tools to use soloing... grouped however they most definately are squishier than you, and they do not have the means of any of the scouts to mitigate aggro... you can minimise it all you want, but these two factors are most deginately a disadvantage they have. Yes they have other advantages that most scouts dont have (acting from range being one) but you can't simply knock their disadvantages off the table and say you're only going to look at their advantages... while you knock your advantages off the table and say you're only going to look at your disadvantages.If you don't regard your range as an advantage you are most definately play playing the wrong class. You need to switch to Assassin.... that's not a "if you don't like it get out"... it really is a case if you see range as a liability, if it's an irksome mechanic you honestly need to play a more straight-up melee class.... I suggest you take a look at Swashbucklers. They're a straightforward class.And for finishing off mobs, Ranger melee is very strong. No Rangers don't have the number of melee attacks to sustain melee, but they do have a couple of very strong melee attacks.You see only the disadvantages of the Ranger and the advantages of an Assassin... try being an Assassin looking at a group of mobs when one of them sees invis... try being that Assassin when he watched a Ranger use his stealthed, <b>ranged</b> AE attack.Yes Assassins are strong... yes mages are strong... yes Rangers have issues... but this polarised black and white inverse reality you see the game through simply isn't so.Rangers are a well rounded, well conceived class that have a couple of very important, but very narrowly focused issues that need addressed. Presenting Rangers as all bad masks these key issues....<ul><li>Rangers pay through the nose to perform their function without return for the cost</li><li>Ranger cast timers are long for no apparent reason and no return</li><li>SoA a signature ability is borked</li><li>Ranger bow itemisation sucks</li></ul>If they changed an AA to provide Rangers with a chance to double-attack with bows tomorrow, and allowed SoA to participate in this mechanic and changed Ranger arrow summoning, Ranger issues would evapourate instantly. The problem would simply blow away because the issues facing Rangers while quite profound aren't especially broad, complicated or difficult to address.... the class as a whole is not broken. Changing cast timers would be a bonus that would put a smile on the face of everybody, but simply changing an AA would solve the "crisis" in a single move.Assassins would also have access to the same AA... make it an end of line 8pt AA. If an Assassin wants to invest so heavily in ranged AAs no biggy if he gets to yield benefit out of it.The developer investment (I'm a middle-aged programmer) in fixing the first 3 items is trivial. It's tweaking numbers. The bow itemisation would have to be addressed over time.Rivals and competitors to Rangers are comming to concensus and vocalising that Rangers are in urgent need of attention.... that is when classes get addressed for better or worse. When playerwide consensus forms. Devs can't ignore it, nor do they historically. Dramatising the issue muddies the water making the real issues harder to see and antagonises said rivals and slowing down the formation of consensus.By all means address Ranger issues. Don't resort to "oh woe is me, nobody knows the trouble I've seen" as it actually makes the situation a lot worse.... mid level Rangers are now having trouble getting groups. Mid level Rangers who don't have a single thing wrong with their character are walking around feeling morose convinced they're "broke" and their efforts are all wasted.</div>

[USAFJeeper]

<P>Trolls are fun!</P> <P>And Jay, add me to the list of people who want to know where and who.  I could easily remove my sig and go post on the oh, Guardian board a class about which I know nothing.  Not that I have to prove anything to them but I really have no capability to post on the Guardian board intelligently except by hiding behind  the anonymity of a random poster on the boards.</P>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div>Carnagh, I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but I would really get to know the people who post around here and their positions before you post something like "You really should play an assassin" I have no interest in playing a melee class. I've stated time and again I'm a die-hard ranger and anyone who posts here regularly knows that. They also know I'm a die-hard soloer and I've stated many times I don't have a problem soloing as a ranger. But our ranged opportunity shouldn't be seen as something to keep us from being fixed in the areas that we need to be fixed. It *is* a disadvantage, rather than the advantage some think it is, for a soloing ranger. I can't get a group of mobs nearly dead before they get to me, not at my level. Storm of Arrows, if I'm lucky, will get them down to yellow and usually if I pull with that then they parry and it was useless. I end up using that skill when I'm already engaged, after I take out one with Stealthy Fire and the Trip line, as I've had much more luck that it won't miss. But to say, as the OP said, that we shouldn't be near top DPS because we can strike from ranged and that it's always an advantage is false. It's not. In my case, it takes planning and tactics and sometimes a whole lot of luck and praying I can resist anything that can root me so I can get distance for a shot. I love it, but it's by no means a reason why when we already have to put in more effort to get the DPS we do, we shouldn't be higher in DPS than we are, when DPS is just about all we bring. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TaleraRis on <span class=date_text>08-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 PM</span>

[Tarryn]

<P>A whole lot of ranger problems with soloing could be solved very simply. </P> <P>1. Make Cheap Shot stick in spite of damage on <EM>any non-heroic mob</EM>.  There are single ^ mobs that are "solo" mobs and Cheap Shot needs to work normally on them.  Let it break on damage with heroic mobs as usual, so we don't encroach on 'chanter territory.</P> <P>2. Un-nerf Point Blank Shot.  This skill has been nerfed what, 2 or 3 times?  I don't care much about the damage on it (since it's not high enough to worry about) but raise the duration back up by a bit.  As it is, it's not worth putting on the hotbar until you get 6 or 8 ranks in it.  It needs to hold long enough to get behind the mob for a Longblade/Ranger's Blade combo.</P> <P>3. Re-work our snares.  Bump up the effectiveness and make them slightly more likely to hold through damage. As-is they're barely worth using.  Heck, my roommate can stack his Brigand's snares to bring a mob down to a dead crawl--and he doesn't even <EM>need</EM> that capability.  We do, so give it to us.</P> <P>Adding the 4 second root to the Lunging Joust line is nice, and it does help--but it's not enough.  We need to be able to utilize our ranged attacks, and we need the tools to utilize our stealth attacks like other scout classes do.  None of the above changes (implemented in moderation) would be unbalancing--it would just allow us to solo on an even keel.</P> <P>On topic:</P> <P>There is no direct correlation between DPS potential and the ability to attack from range.  There are too many other factors involved to simplify the matter that far.  Rangers should not be the sole occupants of the top of the DPS list, but we definitely need to be able to make it there on a regular basis.  If you must simplify it to some degree, it seems to me that a better premise is that DPS is <EM>what we do.</EM>  We don't debuff, we don't buff, we don't make anyone else better, we don't make pretty light shows--we deal damage, pure and simple.  Our armor, our aggro mitigation, our range--those are just the tools we use.  Cloth DPS, chain DPS--they each have their pluses and minuses...it's a wash.  So our DPS needs to be equivalent--sometimes better and sometimes worse, but always close.</P>

[Gailstryd]

Wow did this devovle, but I figured it would part of why I didn't leave my original opinion up.  As for on topic, I don't think anyone here cares if we are #1 uber leet pwnzr 2000 bots, but we all want to be in the running instead of a lagging badly 4th.  I wouldn't care if i was constantly number 4 or 5 or whatever if my dps was in line with the others, but it isn't from what I've seen.  I respect the fact that the OP has his own different perspective, but if you talk stupid dribble you aren't going to get better back most of the time. 

[Dragonsviperz]

<P>To help clarify why snares and PB shot have been reduced. Its because of PVP imo. The reason why some skills i.e anything with a stun/stifle/mez/root/snare have been reduced in potency because over on PVP it would be too easy to have someone else perma-stuned or what ever negative effect is on the player. It shouldn't be that PVP servers are effecting PVE envoirnments so strongly like they are now.</P> <P>But, if they did raise any of those effects hell yea soloing would be a bit easier and more enjoyable. I'm not saying to make it completely doable by any person though.</P> <P>     That was replying to the off topic post that Tarryn wrote. </P> <P>And to the OP. I can kind of understand where you are coming from if this was back in tier 6 days, but there is no reason to be saying that when rangers are in need of a dps boost in every way possible.</P>

[Tarryn]

<P>There's no real reason for the PVP to have affected abilities on the PVE servers, since the devs have stated they maintain completely seperate rulesets for those servers.  (Though I admit I do have my suspicions at times... )</P> <P>From what I read, the snares, stuns, etc., were changed because the devs were revamping crowd control to give enchanters more of a role.  Still, whether it was due to PVP or enchanters, these things need to be re-examined.</P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tarryn wrote:<div></div> <p>There's no real reason for the PVP to have affected abilities on the PVE servers, since the devs have stated they maintain completely seperate rulesets for those servers.  (Though I admit I do have my suspicions at times... )</p><hr></blockquote>IMO, they lied... It is MUCH EASIER to change the way a spell works across the board, then change the way is works on players.The only ability that I have noticed a difference on (in duels) is point blank (which came AFTER PVP?). I kind of wish it would work like that against mobs...</div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <P>Trolls are fun!</P> <P>And Jay, add me to the list of people who want to know where and who.  I could easily remove my sig and go post on the oh, Guardian board a class about which I know nothing.  Not that I have to prove anything to them but I really have no capability to post on the Guardian board intelligently except by hiding behind  the anonymity of a random poster on the boards.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Definitely... but there's a difference between being accountable for your words in a forum post, and someone demanding your name and server so they can spam you with tells to "correct" your thinking on various subjects. But hey, that's just my two cents, and /ignore does work cross-server if it ever became necessary.<BR></P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> USAFJeeper wrote: <div></div> <p>Trolls are fun!</p> <p>And Jay, add me to the list of people who want to know where and who.  I could easily remove my sig and go post on the oh, Guardian board a class about which I know nothing.  Not that I have to prove anything to them but I really have no capability to post on the Guardian board intelligently except by hiding behind  the anonymity of a random poster on the boards.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Definitely... but there's a difference between being accountable for your words in a forum post, and someone demanding your name and server so they can spam you with tells to "correct" your thinking on various subjects. But hey, that's just my two cents, and /ignore does work cross-server if it ever became necessary.</p><hr></blockquote>Its simple, if your going to make bold statements back them up.. If your going to assume that you have a "viable" opinion, back it up.. If you dont have the stones to give your level/class/name then its no diffrent then a child insaulting another child behind there parent while the parent does nothing to discipline them. Its that simple..I took the hit from you once jay simply because I am harsh on these boards.. But im not taking it again.</div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> LoreLady wrote: <P>Its simple, if your going to make bold statements back them up.. If your going to assume that you have a "viable" opinion, back it up.. If you dont have the stones to give your level/class/name then its no diffrent then a child insaulting another child behind there parent while the parent does nothing to discipline them. Its that simple..<BR><BR>I took the hit from you once jay simply because I am harsh on these boards.. But im not taking it again.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sure, like I said, I agree about backing up your assertions. That goes for anyone making claims about their characters, techniques, rules and mechanics, etc. And not b/c of proving something in an argumentative sense, just citing your sources so everyone knows where the information comes from and can be sure it's accurate.</P> <P>But... "taking the hit?" I don't really know what you're referring to, but of course you're welcome to disregard or ignore my posts if you prefer, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. As for the implied threat in your last sentence... that's cute, man. What are you gonna do, steal my lunch money? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Zholain]

<div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Jay42 wrote:</font><p><font size="2">What are you gonna do, steal my lunch money? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><font size="2"></font><hr></blockquote><font size="2">You have lunch money?  Can I borrow it?  I'm broke and I'm nearly out of Bosprite's Squash Muffins.....</font></div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>For the record my conjuror is very insulted with all this talk about him being <EM>"squishy"</EM>.  He takes great pride in his tanking abilities and rejects these disparaging remarks.  The little guy just loves going to Nest with his defiler buddy and tanking it.  And no no no it's not his pet tanking.  That would be loosing to much DPS and slow things down.  He tanks, mage pet dps's and mobs go splat.</P> <P> </P> <P>PS - The <EM>"squishy"</EM> conjuror is currently tanking for his defiler friend in PoA as he helps him get through the quest.</P> <P>PPS - Nothing beats tanking the final 12% of Tarinix with a  <EM>"Squishy"</EM> cloth wearing conjuror <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Zholain wrote: <P><FONT size=2>You have lunch money?  Can I borrow it?  I'm broke and I'm nearly out of Bosprite's Squash Muffins.....</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You elves eat weird stuff... but sure, I'll buy you lunch anytime. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR> <P>For the record my conjuror is very insulted with all this talk about him being <EM>"squishy"</EM>.  He takes great pride in his tanking abilities and rejects these disparaging remarks.  The little guy just loves going to Nest with his defiler buddy and tanking it.  And no no no it's not his pet tanking.  That would be loosing to much DPS and slow things down.  He tanks, mage pet dps's and mobs go splat.</P> <P> </P> <P>PS - The <EM>"squishy"</EM> conjuror is currently tanking for his defiler friend in PoA as he helps him get through the quest.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>PPS - Nothing beats tanking the final 12% of Tarinix with a  <EM>"Squishy"</EM> cloth wearing conjuror <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></STRONG> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats always fun to watch. My old conjuror back in tier 6 used to tank like every mob and never get hit. It was actually kind of freaky to watch lol. </P> <P>/derail off</P> <P>About the PvP affecting PVE. I seriously think it does happen. Why have there been so many changes just to accomodate the PVP servers, while taking negative affects on us? I can't give any examples atm because I've been away for the last 3 weeks, so my mind is not into EQ2 that much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Saihung23]

<DIV>Hi Everyone, hows it going?  Good good good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the OP I would like to say that I have really been enjoying that new series on Sci-fi called Eureka...so far it seems like its a pretty neat show.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh..and Giants Suck!  (Sorry, Eagles fan here...thats just how we are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to those who are rude in response to the OP that from my reply above I am sure you can see where I stand...well I just have to say that I did not actually go to jail today.  I went to court and the judge saw fit to not even assign a bond!  Isnt that great!  I think so too...afterall it was just a misunderstanding...I just didnt even think to look before I drove off...and no one was hurt or anything...plus, its almost two years later!  Isnt the statute of limitations up on that kind of thing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to Jay42 and everyone, why is it that whenever I am behind an SUV...a BIG SUV like an expedition or something...and we come up to train tracks or some small pothole or dip in the road...They Have to swerve around it like they are driving a lowrider pick-up?  I mean...COME ON!! You are driving a truck that has almost 15 full inches between the bottom of it and the ground...my crown victoria has no issues going over the tracks...what is wrong with you people?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, I really hate to be this harsh to all of you but...well...you deserve it so, just take whats coming to you and deal with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to have to do this again...it makes me feel guilty writing things like this...but I am sure you all understand now.</DIV>

[Dragonsviperz]

I was very confused by that post....but being an Eagles fan made it all good <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Its going to be a rough season though.

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR> I was very confused by that post....but being an Eagles fan made it all good <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Its going to be a rough season though.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I just reported you for abuse to a moderator for that comment sir! >.<</P> <P><FONT color=#99ccff>I think I meant reported abuse to a moderator...unless...how are you treating Starry and Scarlette these days?  You better be nice!</FONT></P> <P>I dont want to hear stuff like that</P> <P>/sticks fingers in ears </P> <P>lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala lalalalalalalalallalalalalalalalalalala</P><p>Message Edited by Saihung23 on <span class=date_text>08-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:28 PM</span>

[Ranja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saihung23 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hi Everyone, hows it going?  Good good good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the OP I would like to say that I have really been enjoying that new series on Sci-fi called Eureka...so far it seems like its a pretty neat show.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh..and Giants Suck!  (Sorry, Eagles fan here...thats just how we are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to those who are rude in response to the OP that from my reply above I am sure you can see where I stand...well I just have to say that I did not actually go to jail today.  I went to court and the judge saw fit to not even assign a bond!  Isnt that great!  I think so too...afterall it was just a misunderstanding...I just didnt even think to look before I drove off...and no one was hurt or anything...plus, its almost two years later!  Isnt the statute of limitations up on that kind of thing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>And to Jay42 and everyone, why is it that whenever I am behind an SUV...a BIG SUV like an expedition or something...and we come up to train tracks or some small pothole or dip in the road...They Have to swerve around it like they are driving a lowrider pick-up?  I mean...COME ON!! You are driving a truck that has almost 15 full inches between the bottom of it and the ground...my crown victoria has no issues going over the tracks...what is wrong with you people?</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, I really hate to be this harsh to all of you but...well...you deserve it so, just take whats coming to you and deal with it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to have to do this again...it makes me feel guilty writing things like this...but I am sure you all understand now.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is the part that kills me (bolded above). Happens all the time. Big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SUV or pick-up truck comes to a complete stop or crawl to go over tracks. I cannot tell you how many times I ahve passed a SUV on the left going over tracks because they refuse to take them at the speed limit. Funny thing is, it is always a really expensive clean (read:never been offroad) SUV.<BR>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bentgate wrote:<BR> <BR>This is the part that kills me (bolded above). Happens all the time. Big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SUV or pick-up truck comes to a complete stop or crawl to go over tracks. I cannot tell you how many times I ahve passed a SUV on the left going over tracks because they refuse to take them at the speed limit. Funny thing is, it is always a really expensive clean (read:never been offroad) SUV.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!   Thats really a pet peeve of mine too.  I have an SUV and I hate Hate HATE getting stuck behind them poking over speed bumps, rails, and potholes.  Get a grip, driver. Those things were MADE to go over those bumps fast.  Just make sure not to spill your beer.<BR>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Saihung23 wrote:</P> <P>Some very weird stuff.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You have become better at Thread Derailing (330/340)</P> <P>You have become better at Confusing People (495/500) (yeah, he's uber in that skil...) :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Zholain]

<div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">jarlaxle888 wrote:</font><font size="2"></font> <blockquote> <hr> <p><font size="2">Saihung23 wrote:</font></p> <p><font size="2">Some very weird stuff.</font></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p><font size="2">You have become better at Thread Derailing (330/340)</font></p> <p><font size="2">You have become better at Confusing People (495/500) (yeah, he's uber in that skil...) :smileyvery-happy:</font></p><font size="2"></font><hr></blockquote><font size="2">NO FAIR!!!  <u><i><b>I</b></i></u> wanted credit for derailing this thread   <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT size=2>jarlaxle888 wrote:<BR></FONT><FONT size=2><BR></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><FONT size=2>Saihung23 wrote:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Some very weird stuff.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=2><BR>You have become better at Thread Derailing (330/340)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>You have become better at Confusing People (495/500) (yeah, he's uber in that skil...) :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></P><FONT size=2><BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2>NO FAIR!!!  <U><I><B>I</B></I></U> wanted credit for derailing this thread   <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>True, you did derail it first. Sorry about that :smileysurprised:</P> <P>Let's say you derailed the thread, and Saihung blew up the rails :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Zholain]

<span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Bledso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>Speaking as a soloer on this...<BR><BR>You see our ranged attacks as an advantage. I see them as a liability. We have maybe, what, 2 skills we can cast on the move? The others require us to be at least standing still, some require position or stealth and some require all three. I have to be at range to do the best damage I can do to my opponent. My melee skills are laughable, frankly, in comparison to our sister class.<BR><BR>So I have to get those heavy shots off before that mob gets to me. I have very few tools to get that mob away again-4 second root, 4 second stun, a snare that hasn't been very effective soloing-so my damage needs to be done before the mob is in my face. Assassins have the melee skills that we don't. They don't need to get the mob down as far in health before it gets into melee range, because they have the tools they need to survive when it's down to one-on-one time. Rangers lack in that department.<BR><BR>And whoever said mages are squishy, I'll tell you. I'm squishy, too. I don't last anymore against a heroic than my conjuror would being beaten on repeatedly, but she has tools, ie her pet, that prevent that from happening and allow her to take on tougher encounters. I just have little old froggy me.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You're level 54. You don't have any problems compaired to any other Scout your level... At lvl 52 I betrayed my Ranger to Assassin and this weekend I'm betraying him back.<BR><BR>There's precious little difference between an Assassin and a Ranger soloing singles.... soloing groups is MUCH easier with a Ranger especially against groups. My lvl 70 Brigand is really strong against single oponents as he can tear their mitigation right down, but he can't have a group of 3 mobs all nearly dead before they get to him.<BR><BR>All the scouts have pros and cons, and the timing required to solo a Ranger well is most definately the most taxing of any scout... but once you have it down pat, soloing with a Ranger is a breeze.<BR><BR>Yes robes have lots of tools to use soloing... grouped however they most definately are squishier than you, and they do not have the means of any of the scouts to mitigate aggro... you can minimise it all you want, but these two factors are most deginately a disadvantage they have. Yes they have other advantages that most scouts dont have (acting from range being one) but you can't simply knock their disadvantages off the table and say you're only going to look at their advantages... while you knock your advantages off the table and say you're only going to look at your disadvantages.<BR><BR>If you don't regard your range as an advantage you are most definately play playing the wrong class. You need to switch to Assassin.... that's not a "if you don't like it get out"... it really is a case if you see range as a liability, if it's an irksome mechanic you honestly need to play a more straight-up melee class.... I suggest you take a look at Swashbucklers. They're a straightforward class.<BR><BR>And for finishing off mobs, Ranger melee is very strong. No Rangers don't have the number of melee attacks to sustain melee, but they do have a couple of very strong melee attacks.<BR><BR>You see only the disadvantages of the Ranger and the advantages of an Assassin... try being an Assassin looking at a group of mobs when one of them sees invis... try being that Assassin when he watched a Ranger use his stealthed, <B>ranged</B> AE attack.<BR><BR>Yes Assassins are strong... yes mages are strong... yes Rangers have issues... but this polarised black and white inverse reality you see the game through simply isn't so.<BR><BR>Rangers are a well rounded, well conceived class that have a couple of very important, but very narrowly focused issues that need addressed. Presenting Rangers as all bad masks these key issues....<BR><BR> <UL> <LI>Rangers pay through the nose to perform their function without return for the cost</LI> <LI>Ranger cast timers are long for no apparent reason and no return<BR></LI> <LI>SoA a signature ability is borked</LI> <LI>Ranger bow itemisation sucks</LI></UL>If they changed an AA to provide Rangers with a chance to double-attack with bows tomorrow, and allowed SoA to participate in this mechanic and changed Ranger arrow summoning, Ranger issues would evapourate instantly. The problem would simply blow away because the issues facing Rangers while quite profound aren't especially broad, complicated or difficult to address.... the class as a whole is not broken. Changing cast timers would be a bonus that would put a smile on the face of everybody, but simply changing an AA would solve the "crisis" in a single move.<BR><BR>Assassins would also have access to the same AA... make it an end of line 8pt AA. If an Assassin wants to invest so heavily in ranged AAs no biggy if he gets to yield benefit out of it.<BR><BR>The developer investment (I'm a middle-aged programmer) in fixing the first 3 items is trivial. It's tweaking numbers. The bow itemisation would have to be addressed over time.<BR><BR>Rivals and competitors to Rangers are comming to concensus and vocalising that Rangers are in urgent need of attention.... that is when classes get addressed for better or worse. When playerwide consensus forms. Devs can't ignore it, nor do they historically. Dramatising the issue muddies the water making the real issues harder to see and antagonises said rivals and slowing down the formation of consensus.<BR><BR>By all means address Ranger issues. Don't resort to "oh woe is me, nobody knows the trouble I've seen" as it actually makes the situation a lot worse.... mid level Rangers are now having trouble getting groups. Mid level Rangers who don't have a single thing wrong with their character are walking around feeling morose convinced they're "broke" and their efforts are all wasted.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/applaude    Well said, and nice to see another one who enjoys Ranger as much as I do.</P> <P>The bow is a serious issue and we need Ranger specific ones....   I would think that since Assassians melee is the stronger ability their ranged should be adjusted to compensate.</P> <P>I am not one to want other class nerfs but class balance as SOE has stated themselves is an adjustment between AOE, ranged and melee - ensuring the class does best in its primary function be it melee, ranged or AOE (spells) - if one class is dominent in 2 of these areas it requires adjustment.</P> <P>The recast of the rangers - (bow) CA's is, IMO, the single worse aspect I have in long fights - I even went agility AA to obtain the recast reduction master ability.   </P> <P>I agree that constructive, point of fact posts and positive ideas on fixing Ranger issues will get Dev attention.</P> <P>If it were not for your post here I would have completely ignored this thread since the OP statement makes no sense.</P> <P> </P>

[Ranja]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bledso wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>Speaking as a soloer on this...<BR><BR>You see our ranged attacks as an advantage. I see them as a liability. We have maybe, what, 2 skills we can cast on the move? The others require us to be at least standing still, some require position or stealth and some require all three. I have to be at range to do the best damage I can do to my opponent. My melee skills are laughable, frankly, in comparison to our sister class.<BR><BR>So I have to get those heavy shots off before that mob gets to me. I have very few tools to get that mob away again-4 second root, 4 second stun, a snare that hasn't been very effective soloing-so my damage needs to be done before the mob is in my face. Assassins have the melee skills that we don't. They don't need to get the mob down as far in health before it gets into melee range, because they have the tools they need to survive when it's down to one-on-one time. Rangers lack in that department.<BR><BR>And whoever said mages are squishy, I'll tell you. I'm squishy, too. I don't last anymore against a heroic than my conjuror would being beaten on repeatedly, but she has tools, ie her pet, that prevent that from happening and allow her to take on tougher encounters. I just have little old froggy me.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You're level 54. You don't have any problems compaired to any other Scout your level... At lvl 52 I betrayed my Ranger to Assassin and this weekend I'm betraying him back.<BR><BR>There's precious little difference between an Assassin and a Ranger soloing singles.... soloing groups is MUCH easier with a Ranger especially against groups. My lvl 70 Brigand is really strong against single oponents as he can tear their mitigation right down, but he can't have a group of 3 mobs all nearly dead before they get to him.<BR><BR>All the scouts have pros and cons, and the timing required to solo a Ranger well is most definately the most taxing of any scout... but once you have it down pat, soloing with a Ranger is a breeze.<BR><BR>Yes robes have lots of tools to use soloing... grouped however they most definately are squishier than you, and they do not have the means of any of the scouts to mitigate aggro... you can minimise it all you want, but these two factors are most deginately a disadvantage they have. Yes they have other advantages that most scouts dont have (acting from range being one) but you can't simply knock their disadvantages off the table and say you're only going to look at their advantages... while you knock your advantages off the table and say you're only going to look at your disadvantages.<BR><BR>If you don't regard your range as an advantage you are most definately play playing the wrong class. You need to switch to Assassin.... that's not a "if you don't like it get out"... it really is a case if you see range as a liability, if it's an irksome mechanic you honestly need to play a more straight-up melee class.... I suggest you take a look at Swashbucklers. They're a straightforward class.<BR><BR>And for finishing off mobs, Ranger melee is very strong. No Rangers don't have the number of melee attacks to sustain melee, but they do have a couple of very strong melee attacks.<BR><BR>You see only the disadvantages of the Ranger and the advantages of an Assassin... try being an Assassin looking at a group of mobs when one of them sees invis... try being that Assassin when he watched a Ranger use his stealthed, <B>ranged</B> AE attack.<BR><BR>Yes Assassins are strong... yes mages are strong... yes Rangers have issues... but this polarised black and white inverse reality you see the game through simply isn't so.<BR><BR>Rangers are a well rounded, well conceived class that have a couple of very important, but very narrowly focused issues that need addressed. Presenting Rangers as all bad masks these key issues....<BR><BR> <UL> <LI>Rangers pay through the nose to perform their function without return for the cost</LI> <LI>Ranger cast timers are long for no apparent reason and no return<BR></LI> <LI>SoA a signature ability is borked</LI> <LI>Ranger bow itemisation sucks</LI></UL>If they changed an AA to provide Rangers with a chance to double-attack with bows tomorrow, and allowed SoA to participate in this mechanic and changed Ranger arrow summoning, Ranger issues would evapourate instantly. The problem would simply blow away because the issues facing Rangers while quite profound aren't especially broad, complicated or difficult to address.... the class as a whole is not broken. Changing cast timers would be a bonus that would put a smile on the face of everybody, but simply changing an AA would solve the "crisis" in a single move.<BR><BR>Assassins would also have access to the same AA... make it an end of line 8pt AA. If an Assassin wants to invest so heavily in ranged AAs no biggy if he gets to yield benefit out of it.<BR><BR>The developer investment (I'm a middle-aged programmer) in fixing the first 3 items is trivial. It's tweaking numbers. The bow itemisation would have to be addressed over time.<BR><BR>Rivals and competitors to Rangers are comming to concensus and vocalising that Rangers are in urgent need of attention.... that is when classes get addressed for better or worse. When playerwide consensus forms. Devs can't ignore it, nor do they historically. Dramatising the issue muddies the water making the real issues harder to see and antagonises said rivals and slowing down the formation of consensus.<BR><BR>By all means address Ranger issues. Don't resort to "oh woe is me, nobody knows the trouble I've seen" as it actually makes the situation a lot worse.... mid level Rangers are now having trouble getting groups. Mid level Rangers who don't have a single thing wrong with their character are walking around feeling morose convinced they're "broke" and their efforts are all wasted.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/applaude    Well said, and nice to see another one who enjoys Ranger as much as I do.</P> <P>The bow is a serious issue and we need Ranger specific ones....   I would think that since Assassians melee is the stronger ability their ranged should be adjusted to compensate.</P> <P>I am not one to want other class nerfs but class balance as SOE has stated themselves is an adjustment between AOE, ranged and melee - ensuring the class does best in its primary function be it melee, ranged or AOE (spells) - if one class is dominent in 2 of these areas it requires adjustment.</P> <P>The recast of the rangers - (bow) CA's is, IMO, the single worse aspect I have in long fights -<STRONG> I even went agility AA to obtain the recast reduction master ability.   </STRONG></P> <P>I agree that constructive, point of fact posts and positive ideas on fixing Ranger issues will get Dev attention.</P> <P>If it were not for your post here I would have completely ignored this thread since the OP statement makes no sense.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think you mean the strength line. The agility line reduces CAST time of your arts. Teh strength line reduces recast time of all arts with 2 minute or more cast times. For Rangers this means Snipers and Veiled Fire.<BR>

[xandez]

<DIV>sigh, something obviously has not changed in here <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>++Xan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[shogun007]

<div></div><div></div>Hmm interesting so the topic called why rangers should not be near the top of dps i recently posted topic on combat discussion forum about rangers being on par with other dps classes out there  but i like the name of this topic, just one question --Did we get a nice utility spell with some debuffs (criippling arrow is not a debuff its a joke) and one or 2 grp buffs to put topic with this name?I honestly recommend the berserkers, brawlers , summoners and assasin to post something like '' Why cant we have a top dps since we dont have all utility in the game just some of it '' and  ''Why there are some rangers still outdpsing us when they shouldnt be because they are broken so much  they just between a paladin and a gurdian in terms of dps". And by the way our arrows cost so much so its a number #1 reason not to play a ranger at all. While i am writing this i am currently rolling a berserker and at lev 1 he already does more damage , man i should have known. <p>Message Edited by shogun007 on <span class="date_text">08-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:58 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by shogun007 on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>shogun007 wrote:<div></div><div></div>Hmm interesting so the topic called why rangers should not be near the top of dps i recently posted topic on combat discussion forum about rangers being on par with other dps classes out there  but i like the name of this topic, just one question --Did we get a nice utility spell with some debuffs (criippling arrow is not a debuff its a joke) and one or 2 grp buffs to put topic with this name?I honestly recommend the berserkers, brawlers , summoners and assasin to post something like '' Why cant we have a top dps since we dont have all utility in the game just some of it '' and  ''Why there are some rangers still outdpsing us when they shouldnt be because they are broken so much  they just between a paladin and a gurdian in terms of dps". And by the way our arrows cost so much so its a number #1 reason not to play a ranger at all. While i am writing this i am currently rolling a berserker and at lev 1 he already does more damage , man i should have known. <p>Message Edited by shogun007 on <span class="date_text">08-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:58 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by shogun007 on <span class="date_text">08-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:58 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Lol <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And its a topic to [Removed for Content] of rangers.. People who post these things are usually level 20 people on this.. And btw, OP I was harsh on I got a giant lecture on.. I gave him an email and find out im right, he is in his 20-30's levels <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />..Generally, people like talking like they actually know something without doing the bookwork. Then come on here and post rediculus claims.. </div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>08-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:33 PM</span>

[shogun007]

Ok got me there i am level 40 ranger but its not me who is trying to [Removed for Content] off rangers ---i am a  ranger, who is against  crying  and telling everyone that we suck when we dont, and i am not a rookie . Ok my main is not a ranger and my ranger is lev 40 not a lev 70 with 50 aa line which is clear to me anyway since it only offers 2 nice options ---perfectionist and poise(i think its poise its a reducer of casting times) but  i was reading this forums since day 1 and one thing i learned---------all classes on all forums are complaining that they suck and the reason i made this topic its not the point to [Removed for Content] off these experienced and knowledgeable rangers who through a lot of suffering (experience wise and raiding wise) deserved the right to complain and cry about how bad they are and how much they need SOE interfere and make rangers class outdps everybody again. Hmm i dont think its ever going to happen there will be ups  and downs but  whine and complain its not an option i am really feel tired sometimes to play a ranger with 90% of rangers crying and willing to betray and assasins telling me they better without even fighting and parsing the fights. I really do feel shame for, stop compalining reroll,betray, there are tons of options but really stop  your moaning about your own class , some berserkers will tell u they have your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in dps terms on a platter, if we wont respect our class who will?, and plz stop posting stuff like i just started game yesterday, no it took me many months to lose my patience and start posting before i was playing and not looking at the forums.If we wont respect ourselves nobody willl respect our class and u got me so tired with your whining really maybe i should play my brigand?

[Teksun]

The only place we need a little help is on raids. When the 'top raiding guilds' (use the term loosely) don't want Rangers on raids, there IS a problem. We may solo better than most, we may be great in group, but when you do hit 70/50 there really isn't a lot to do other than raid. If you bring nothing to the party you may as well stay home.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shogun007 wrote:<BR>Ok my main is not a ranger and my ranger is lev 40 not a lev 70 with 50 aa line which is clear to me anyway since it only offers 2 nice options ---perfectionist and poise(i think its poise its a reducer of casting times) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You'll  find out when you get there, that there are many viable options beside the two you listed.  And some of the other options can result in a DPS increase depending on your gear and play style.  I was pushing 700 str on raids for a long time befoe I finally figured out I could increase my DPS by reducing my str and increasing my int.  The poison crits are totally awesome and, for many, add up to more damage than the 15% damage increase and reduced re-cast times provided by perfectionist.  If you max out your poison crits, you get a 52% chance to crit.  I'm not saying this is the best way to go because for many it's not.<BR>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:The only place we need a little help is on raids. When the 'top raiding guilds' (use the term loosely) don't want Rangers on raids, there IS a problem. We may solo better than most, we may be great in group, but when you do hit 70/50 there really isn't a lot to do other than raid. If you bring nothing to the party you may as well stay home.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I know I've said it before, but I consider my guild a 'top raiding guild,' and as far as I know they still want me on raids.  I guess if they all think I and/or Rangers suck they have neglected to tell me.</div>

[Defender of Antonia]

<P>Rangers are fine just the way you are all I seem to see in this entire form are complaints how you can no longer do 2k dps like some could pull in T6. You are not suppose to be top of the parser every single fight.</P> <P> And before people start complaining how they never are top of the parser I am in a raiding guild that has beaten every raid zone in game ( minus Chel drak) and we have 2 rangers who do amazing dps 1.2-1.4k and we have 3 rangers who absolutly suck 500-600dps (yes we have 5 raiding rangers needless to say 2 or 3 usually sit out) All 5 rangers  have about the same gear and 4 of them have T7 fabled bows It all boils own to how good a player you are. Sometimes Rangers are top sometimes wizards are sometimes Swashy or brig is ext.</P>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Defender of Antonia wrote:<BR> <P>Rangers are fine just the way you are all I seem to see in this entire form are complaints how you can no longer do 2k dps like some could pull in T6. You are not suppose to be top of the parser every single fight.</P> <P> And before people start complaining how they never are top of the parser I am in a raiding guild that has beaten every raid zone in game ( minus Chel drak) and we have 2 rangers who do amazing dps 1.2-1.4k and we have 3 rangers who absolutly suck 500-600dps (yes we have 5 raiding rangers needless to say 2 or 3 usually sit out) All 5 rangers  have about the same gear and 4 of them have T7 fabled bows It all boils own to how good a player you are. Sometimes Rangers are top sometimes wizards are sometimes Swashy or brig is ext.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I guess we should have just asked you in the first place.  And to think of all the people who wasted their time trying to analyze all that raw data.<BR>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> arkkon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Conjurors can outdps us at the same distance from the target. Conjurors solo better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your very "special" attempt to create drama is ...  Im glad that you couldnt keep that in your head.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because after all ZOmG u can PwnZor Solo Mobs FtW. Dont tell Soe or we will get nerfed. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who dies faster Ranger or a Conjorur?

[TerriBlades]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Defender of Antonia wrote:<BR> <P>have 2 rangers who do <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>amazing dps 1.2-1.4k</FONT></STRONG><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dont wanna be the one to bust your bubble here, but that is NOT amazing DPS. Ive raided with a Brigand that could put up numbers like. While its is true that some rangers will post much better numbers then other rangers. It cant be said that 1.2-1.4 is amazing dps. And let me say this before I go. It pisses me off when I go all out and I still lose to a brigand!<BR></DIV>

[Tarryn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Defender of Antonia wrote:<BR> <P>Rangers are fine just the way you are all I seem to see in this entire form are complaints how you can no longer do 2k dps like some could pull in T6. You are not suppose to be top of the parser every single fight.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1. I've not seen anyone asking to be #1 DPs on every single fight. Nor have I seen any rangers complaining that we cannot do our pre-LU20 DPS.  If that's all you see in this entire forum, I strongly suspect that you either haven't read much of it or you're just bandwagoning.</P> <P>2. We're fine, eh?  What evidence do you have that brings you to this conclusion--do you play a tier 7 ranger?  Have you used and compared our T7 CAs (like Hawk Dive, for example) to the abilities of other classes?  Have you tried using Stream of Arrows recently?  Have you, as a ranger, gone all out on encounter after encounter--only to be out-DPSed by classes that bring stuff other than just DPS to the raid?</P> <P>You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  But until you have direct experience, it's not a particularly informed opinion.  Of the informed opinions I've seen, the vast majority agree that there are issues with rangers that need to be addressed.  If, of course, you DO have the direct experience, then you're welcome to join the minority that think we're totally "fine".</P><p>Message Edited by Tarryn on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 PM</span>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Defender of Antonia wrote:<BR> <P>have 2 rangers who do <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>amazing dps 1.2-1.4k</FONT></STRONG><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dont wanna be the one to bust your bubble here, but that is NOT amazing DPS. Ive raided with a Brigand that could put up numbers like. While its is true that some rangers will post much better numbers then other rangers. It cant be said that 1.2-1.4 is amazing dps. And let me say this before I go. It pisses me off when I go all out and I still lose to a brigand!<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Before EQ2 i was playing this MMORPG called priston tale. I played a pladin. There was a archer a healer and a mage also and other classes.</P> <P>As a paladin i could allways out dps that archer.</P> <P>But i allways wanted to play that archer. why?</P> <P>He just set back and did the dps while i had to tank and die a lot. If the mob broke lose he would just run fast to zone.</P> <P>I am not saying that EQ2 is completely equal to other games but what i am saying is that</P> <P>Having a Ranger do as much amount of dmg as Assasin or wizard does not make sense!!</P> <P>And i honestly belive that if a Ranger gets into a sweet spot than he can allways out dps Rogues.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>nirav21 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> TerriBlades wrote: <div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Defender of Antonia wrote: <div></div> <p>have 2 rangers who do <strong><font color="#ff0000">amazing dps 1.2-1.4k</font></strong></p> <hr> </blockquote>I dont wanna be the one to bust your bubble here, but that is NOT amazing DPS. Ive raided with a Brigand that could put up numbers like. While its is true that some rangers will post much better numbers then other rangers. It cant be said that 1.2-1.4 is amazing dps. And let me say this before I go. It pisses me off when I go all out and I still lose to a brigand!</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Before EQ2 i was playing this MMORPG called priston tale. I played a pladin. There was a archer a healer and a mage also and other classes.</p> <p>As a paladin i could allways out dps that archer.</p> <p>But i allways wanted to play that archer. why?</p> <p>He just set back and did the dps while i had to tank and die a lot. If the mob broke lose he would just run fast to zone.</p> <p>I am not saying that EQ2 is completely equal to other games but what i am saying is that</p> <p>Having a Ranger do as much amount of dmg as Assasin or wizard does not make sense!!</p> <p>And i honestly belive that if a Ranger gets into a sweet spot than he can allways out dps Rogues.</p><hr></blockquote>Cept in this game, inorder to do the most dps you can do as a ranger. You cannot just stand back and shoot, you need to stand in melee CA ranger of the mob as well as range CA.. You cant just sitback and shoot..And, in this game palys heal, ward, tank, and buff.. Rangers do damage, that is all. Please do not compare eq2 to other games if I wanted to go play crimson tale, I would go play crimson tale.. Since im playing EQ2, im am going to comment on EQ2..And please do not comment on the ranger state if you are on false assumptions. And if you do post and are corrected, make changes to future statements.</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>nirav21 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> arkkon wrote: <div>Conjurors can outdps us at the same distance from the target. Conjurors solo better. </div> <div> </div> <div>Your very "special" attempt to create drama is ...  Im glad that you couldnt keep that in your head.</div> <div> </div> <div>Because after all ZOmG u can PwnZor Solo Mobs FtW. Dont tell Soe or we will get nerfed. </div> <hr> </blockquote>Who dies faster Ranger or a Conjorur?<hr></blockquote>Conj's tank pet has 12k hp, 30% mit, 30% avoid. And can have dps/haste buffs/procs from the owner.  Raid equipped ranger has 7k hp, 45%ish mitigation, 40% avoidance. Conj can also root the mob and summon another pet(although there root does suck).Hell, even conj's outdamage ranger top end.</div>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Defender of Antonia wrote:<BR> <P>have 2 rangers who do <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>amazing dps 1.2-1.4k</FONT></STRONG><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dont wanna be the one to bust your bubble here, but that is NOT amazing DPS. Ive raided with a Brigand that could put up numbers like. While its is true that some rangers will post much better numbers then other rangers. It cant be said that 1.2-1.4 is amazing dps. And let me say this before I go. It pisses me off when I go all out and I still lose to a brigand!<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Before EQ2 i was playing this MMORPG called priston tale. I played a pladin. There was a archer a healer and a mage also and other classes.</P> <P>As a paladin i could allways out dps that archer.</P> <P>But i allways wanted to play that archer. why?</P> <P>He just set back and did the dps while i had to tank and die a lot. If the mob broke lose he would just run fast to zone.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff33cc>I am not saying that EQ2 is completely equal to other games but what i am saying is that</FONT></P> <P>Having a Ranger do as much amount of dmg as Assasin or wizard does not make sense!!</P> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>And i honestly belive that if a Ranger gets into a <FONT color=#66ff33>sweet spot</FONT> than he can allways out dps Rogues.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Cept in this game, inorder to do the most dps you can do as a ranger. <FONT color=#ff0099>You cannot just stand back and shoot, you need to stand in melee CA ranger of the mob as well as range CA.</FONT>. You cant just sitback and shoot..<BR><BR>And, in this game palys heal, ward, tank, and buff.. Rangers do damage, that is all. <FONT color=#ff00cc>Please do not compare eq2 to other games if I wanted to go play crimson tale,</FONT> I would go play crimson tale.. Since im playing EQ2, im am going to comment on EQ2..<BR><BR>And please do not comment on the ranger state if you are on false assumptions. And if you do post and are corrected, make changes to future statements.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> arkkon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Conjurors can outdps us at the same distance from the target. Conjurors solo better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your very "special" attempt to create drama is ...  Im glad that you couldnt keep that in your head.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because after all ZOmG u can PwnZor Solo Mobs FtW. Dont tell Soe or we will get nerfed. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Who dies faster Ranger or a Conjorur?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Conj's tank pet has 12k hp, 30% mit, 30% avoid. And can have dps/haste buffs/procs from the owner.  Raid equipped ranger has 7k hp, 45%ish mitigation, 40% avoidance. Conj can also root the mob and summon another pet(although there root does suck).<BR><BR>Hell, even conj's outdamage ranger top end.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe the pet can take Mob AOE dmg from the conjorurs.

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Having a Ranger do as much amount of dmg as Assasin or wizard does not make sense!!</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why, in your mind, does it not make sense to have a ranger doing as much dps as an assassin (who is nothing more then our evil half) or a wizzy? And please dont use the arguement that we get to stay ranged and out of the way of AEs, cause any good ranger will tell you thats one quickest ways to lose 200-300 dps, not to mention that brigands have an AE immunity (cept when direct). This "Out of AE range" garbage doesnt hold water, because any good raid ranger isnt going to stand a max distance and mash a few buttons. We are going to joust in and out as our CAs refresh.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>And i honestly belive that if a Ranger gets into a sweet spot than he can allways out dps Rogues.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Next up. Please tell me what you base this statement on. Because I can assure you, that if both the ranger, and the rogue knows what they are doing, the difference in dps is going to be marginal at best. Id venture to say that it might even be a 50/50 split depending on whos CAs are up when. So the question becomes, and I hate to keep rehashing this, but here goes "If a rogue can DPS as well as a ranger, and bring all that utility... WHY bring the ranger? (unless its to fill an empty spot) Something has to seperate us from rogues to make us viable on a raid. That something, should be the same thing that every other DPS class brings... If a class brings nothing to the table but DPS, they [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well better be able to put up some serious numbers. I'll tell you right now 1.2-1.4 isnt it cause thats rogue dps. Get rangers into the 1.5-1.8 range and these DPS threads will die out.<BR></P>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Having a Ranger do as much amount of dmg as Assasin or wizard does not make sense!!</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why, in your mind, does it not make sense to have a ranger doing as much dps as an assassin (who is nothing more then our evil half) or a wizzy? And please dont use the arguement that we get to stay ranged and out of the way of AEs, cause any good ranger will tell you thats one quickest ways to lose 200-300 dps, not to mention that brigands have an AE immunity (cept when direct). This "Out of AE range" garbage doesnt hold water, because any good raid ranger isnt going to stand a max distance and mash a few buttons. We are going to joust in and out as our CAs refresh.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff33cc>Out of AE thing is just an example. Would you rather lose 200-300dps or 50g on repair bils</FONT><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>And i honestly belive that if a Ranger gets into a sweet spot than he can allways out dps Rogues.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Next up. Please tell me what you base this statement on. Because I can assure you, that if both the ranger, and the rogue knows what they are doing, the difference in dps is going to be <FONT color=#ff00cc>marginal at best</FONT>. Id venture to say that it might even be a 50/50 split <FONT color=#ff0099>depending</FONT> on whos CAs are up when. So the question becomes, and I hate to keep rehashing this, but here goes "<FONT color=#ff0099>If a rogue can DPS as well as a ranger</FONT>, and bring all that utility... WHY bring the ranger? (unless its to fill an empty spot) Something has to seperate us from rogues to make us viable on a raid. That something, should be the same thing that every other DPS class brings... If a class brings nothing to the table but DPS, they [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well better be able to put up some serious numbers. I'll tell you right now 1.2-1.4 isnt it cause thats rogue dps. <FONT color=#66ff66>Get rangers into the 1.5-1.8 range and these DPS threads will die out.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff00cc>So you are saying that its all about luck in one sentence and the next sentence you say that Rouges for sure out DPS Rangers. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Why play a assasin when you can just dps as much with rangers then?<BR></FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Bi]

<div><blockquote><hr>Maeryth wrote:Assassins have 3 Ranged Attacks. 1 from Behind, 1 while Flanking, One 2 shot from Any direction. Properly fired from a 62 Assassin, A Level 65 Mob is dropped to Redline on the pull. That's before the arsenal of Melee attacks available when the mob gets there. Did I mention this is for Solo Assassins? In groups there are nifty skills like concealemnt where you can fire all of your Stealthed attacks in under 7 seconds. Option B against Solo mobs is to just stand there and Auto Attack it to death faster than a Ranger can. Rangers ARE Ranged and their Ranged abilities should match the same abilities of a Stealthed Assassin. They do not. Assassins can Literally stand still and press buttons and do more damage than a Ranger can. It is wrong. It needs to be Fixed.<div></div><hr></blockquote>just thought i would laugh at this seriously misinformed post :] I dont know any time that an assassin can drop a mob that isnt a / or maybe green/very weak to redline from ranged.if we get a positional ranged attack we can get 2 attacks off before the mob hits us, otherwise we are stuck with just one. as soon as you hit a mob it faces you, so you only get 1 positional off.I dont know anyone who can actually get all their stealth attacks off using concealment (which is 10 seconds, not 7) added to the incredible lag you get with concealment (especially on raids) which sometimes means you dont get any attacks off at all, as the server doesnt register you as being stealthed until most of the timer is up, and then maybe the mob has turned, or there is a new target....On topic of brigands outdpsing rangers.. equal skill and equipment, as well as being in the right group and this shouldnt really happen.. Brig's do nice dps tho</div>

[TerriBlades]

<P>You seem to be a little slow, so Im going to try and explain this to you Nirav.</P> <P>First off, if I have a repair bill in the 50+ gold mark, so does everyone else in the raid. Though I dont know how this equates to why a ranger shouldnt be on par with an assassin. But since you want to talk about the finacial aspect of being a ranger (and where you think rangers get off on repair bills is so far off the mark its a joke) but Im sure you've seen more then one thread about how much it costs a raiding ranger on a nightly basis. I wont even count the poisons, just because all preds and rouges can use them. So that leaves us with arrows. Yeah we can summon 60 arrows every 10 mins at M1. However, more often then not, rangers have to fork over hard earned  cash for more arrows. I could be wrong here, but I believe even cheap vendor arrows cost about 6g a stack. You know how long 99 arrows stays in a rangers quiver? 1 trash fight, 2 if you're lucky. A ranger can easily burn through that whole quiver (what 22 stacks of 99?!?) in one zone. If all the arrows were purchased, you are looking at over 1plat for a full quiver. So you want to talk to me about a repair bill? get real.</P> <P> </P> <P>Second, you must have misunderstood what I said. If all the combat arts for both the brigand and the ranger are up, then the difference is going to be very very slim at best, and could swing either way. However, how many times have you gone on a raid and told the Tank, or the Raid Leader to wait til all your combat arts have refreshed? Thus making things situational. But its very clear that you dont have a clear understanding of how rangers operate, and have even less of an understanding on what its like to raid. Until you can come up with some real reasons that actually make sense as to why rangers shouldnt be on par with assassins. Keep your trap shut!</P><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class=date_text>08-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 PM</span>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bieb wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>On topic of brigands outdpsing rangers.. equal skill and equipment, as well as being in the right group and this shouldnt really happen.. Brig's do nice dps tho<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats exactly the point. It shouldnt happen, but it does. And it does often.

[Tarryn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Why play a assasin when you can just dps as much with rangers then?</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Playstyle preference...as it should be.  Neither class should be clearly better than the other, it should be just a question of preference.  When the only thing each brings to the table is damage, for one to do significantly more damage than the other is unbalanced.<BR>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><blockquote><div><blockquote>(cut other peoples comments)<p><font color="#ff00cc">And i honestly belive that if a Ranger gets into a <font color="#66ff33">sweet spot</font> than he can allways out dps Rogues.<font color="#ffff00"></font></font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Ohhh the colours!! - But unfortunatly, a rouge who gets double attack has the ability to do 1k melee dps, and 400-800 CA dps, for a total of 1.4k-1.8k dps. Rangers do roughly 200-600 auto attack dps, and 600-800 CA dps, for a total of 800-1.4k.</font><font color="#ff00cc"><font color="#ffff00"></font></font></p> <hr> </blockquote>Cept in this game, inorder to do the most dps you can do as a ranger. <font color="#ff0099">You cannot just stand back and shoot, you need to stand in melee CA ranger of the mob as well as range CA.</font>. You cant just sitback and shoot..<font color="#ffff00"> Why was this highlighted?</font>And, in this game palys heal, ward, tank, and buff.. Rangers do damage, that is all. <font color="#ff00cc">Please do not compare eq2 to other games if I wanted to go play crimson tale,</font> I would go play crimson tale.. Since im playing EQ2, im am going to comment on EQ2.<font color="#ffff00"> And why was this highlighted? I was replying to someone else.</font>And please do not comment on the ranger state if you are on false assumptions. And if you do post and are corrected, make changes to future statements.</div> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">If you are going to highlight my posts please explain your reasoning and what point you are trying to get at.. And.. OHHHH THE COLOURS!.</font></div>

[nirav21]

<P>I highlighted because i already mentinoed sweet spot and you said that the ranger has to stay in both melee and bow range.</P> <P>And i already said that i am not saying EQ2 is like everyother games.</P> <P>But every MMORPG have something in common. Hence the name of the Genre</P><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class=date_text>08-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>nirav21 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>.</p> <p>And i already said that i am not saying EQ2 is like everyother games.</p> <p>But every MMORPG have something in common. Hence the name of the Genre</p><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class="date_text">08-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:25 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Then go post something like.. "I like the way rangers were in this game, and would like to see changes that would benifit the class - yada yada"The way you are going about this is flawed and your going to continue to get pounced on.. If I wanted to play a hunter in wow - id accept less dps because of util, if I wanted a game compleatly based on itemization, id play eq1, if I wanted a game where rangers were top dps and had to pay a huge price id play final fantasy online, if I wanted to play a game where archers were top dps in the end game id play maple story.. - But im playing EQ2, dont try and bring drizzt, legolas, what have you into a ranger combat discussion.If you enjoy seeing rangers a certain way in a diffrent game with diffrent structure.. THEN GO PLAY THAT GAME. The reason we have this discussion in the first place is because of the STRUCTURE this game provides and it is because of that structure we can debate, call out underpowered etc..Btw - Morts in a really bad mood today, my posts will lighten up later on.</div>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <P>.</P> <P>And i already said that i am not saying EQ2 is like everyother games.</P> <P>But every MMORPG have something in common. Hence the name of the Genre</P> <P>Message Edited by nirav21 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:25 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then go post something like.. "I like the way rangers were in this game, and would like to see changes that would benifit the class - yada yada"<BR><BR>The way you are going about this is flawed and your going to continue to get pounced on.. <BR><BR>If I wanted to play a hunter in wow - id accept less dps because of util, if I wanted a game compleatly based on itemization, id play eq1, if I wanted a game where rangers were top dps and had to pay a huge price id play final fantasy online, if I wanted to play a game where archers were top dps in the end game id play maple story.. - But im playing EQ2, dont try and bring drizzt, legolas, what have you into a ranger combat discussion.<BR><BR>If you enjoy seeing rangers a certain way in a diffrent game with diffrent structure.. THEN GO PLAY THAT GAME. The reason we have this discussion in the first place is because of the STRUCTURE this game provides and it is because of that structure we can debate, call out underpowered etc..<BR><BR>Btw - Morts in a really bad mood today, my posts will lighten up later on.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It looks like you dont want to play the Ranger as it is in EQ2. So maybe it is you that should go play other games.

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bieb wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maeryth wrote:<BR>Assassins have 3 Ranged Attacks. 1 from Behind, 1 while Flanking, One 2 shot from Any direction. Properly fired from a 62 Assassin, A Level 65 Mob is dropped to Redline on the pull. That's before the arsenal of Melee attacks available when the mob gets there. Did I mention this is for Solo Assassins? In groups there are nifty skills like concealemnt where you can fire all of your Stealthed attacks in under 7 seconds. Option B against Solo mobs is to just stand there and Auto Attack it to death faster than a Ranger can. Rangers ARE Ranged and their Ranged abilities should match the same abilities of a Stealthed Assassin. They do not. Assassins can Literally stand still and press buttons and do more damage than a Ranger can. It is wrong. It needs to be Fixed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>just thought i would laugh at this seriously misinformed post :] I dont know any time that an assassin can drop a mob that isnt a / or maybe green/very weak to redline from ranged.if we get a positional ranged attack we can get 2 attacks off before the mob hits us, otherwise we are stuck with just one. as soon as you hit a mob it faces you, so you only get 1 positional off.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I dont know anyone who can actually get all their stealth attacks off using concealment (which is 10 seconds, not 7) added to the incredible lag you get with concealment (especially on raids) which sometimes means you dont get any attacks off at all,</FONT> as the server doesnt register you as being stealthed until most of the timer is up, and then maybe the mob has turned, or there is a new target....<BR><BR>On topic of brigands outdpsing rangers.. equal skill and equipment, as well as being in the right group and this shouldnt really happen.. Brig's do nice dps tho<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then you don't know any good assassins. Every assassin I know gets off almost every BS. On average I get Killing Blade, Eviscerate, Jugular, Cloaked Assault, and Slaughtersault, and even have time for one more BS most the time. Sometimes I won't get off Slaughtersault (leave that for the end since its longer castin time). </P> <P>Let me add up all that damage 1 Concealment can do, which also lowers aggro by 40% at Master 1. </P> <P>Killing Blade: 4K - 7K listed damage, and can crit to 13K</P> <P>Eviscerate: 2K - 3K listed dmg, and can crit to 6K</P> <P>Jugular: 1300 - 2K listed dmg, and can crit to 5K</P> <P>Cloaked Assault: AE CA, 700-1200 listed dmg, plus a 214 point dot. AE can crit up to 3K and dot at 350.</P> <P>Slaughtersault: 1200 - 3K dmg. AE CA. Can crit to 5K.</P> <P>So adding all those up: 9200 - 32000(all crits) every min basically, and time that with a brigands dispatch (1 min timer also), and you are more likely to hit towards the high end of all those skills.</P> <P>So where in the ranger's arsenal is any skill that can compare to that?</P>

[nirav21]

<P>Aim line- SniperShot 13kdmg crit</P> <P>Rain of Arrows hits mob of 5 doing 7k dmg each</P> <P>13K+5*7k = 48,000 dmg in 10sec</P><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class=date_text>08-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:32 PM</span>

[Drainlo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <P>Aim line- SniperShot 13kdmg crit</P> <P>Rain of Arrows hits mob of 5 doing 7k dmg each</P> <P>13K+5*7k = 48,000 dmg in 10sec</P> <P>Message Edited by nirav21 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:32 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> assassins is more usefull, hitting mainly one mob...doing most of (ranger) your damage on the other mobs in the group isnt gonna help kill the current target any faster, specially since the incombat regen of the epics will easy replenish the rains damage <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>ps. and it looks like the assassin added all his damage up as if it was against ONE target......rangers need 5 in order to compare?.....</P><p>Message Edited by Drainlock on <span class=date_text>08-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>nirav21 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Aim line- SniperShot 13kdmg crit</p> <p>Rain of Arrows hits mob of 5 doing 7k dmg each</p> <p>13K+5*7k = 48,000 dmg in 10sec</p><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class="date_text">08-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:32 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I was waiting for something like this - Lets assume its a single target mob, since AE's on both classes are ballanced.Aim 1sRain 2ssnipers 5s8s totalUsing your numbers18k damage within 8 seconds.. = 2.2kish.. (this is a spike, not our dps)Now lets assume the assassin has not crited.Killing blade 0.5s  7kEviscerate 0.5s    3kJugular 0.5s         2k Cloaked assault 2s  2.2k (I believe it ticks 5 times)Slaughtersault 3s   3k(may have cloaked/slaughter's casts mixed up)15.2k in 5.5s8-5.5=2.5/8=31.25%0.3125*18k = 56255625+15.2k=2082520825-18000=2825Using your own logic of damage, and assuming it would be a linear diffrence.. This is what the diffrence you would get.. Assassin still beats out the ranger by 10% in this circumstance. And, this is pure burst dps we are including..I have already come across this in several diffrent ways in a previous post.. The damages between the two classes are similar, but since the cast times vary you get a large diffrence in overall dps.Assassins beat rangers in recycle time per dps, dps, sustained dps, and burst dps.. We are even in AE dps.Ohhh.. and PLEASE keep throwing more numbers at me!! Im serious - it makes it that much easier on me.</div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>08-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 PM</span>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div></div><div>I have already come across this in several diffrent ways in a previous post.. The damages between the two classes are similar, but since the cast times vary you get a large diffrence in overall dps.Assassins beat rangers in recycle time per dps, dps, sustained dps, and burst dps.. We are even in AE dps.Ohhh.. and PLEASE keep throwing more numbers at me!! Im serious - it makes it that much easier on me.</div><hr></blockquote><img src="http://nefariouslabs.r30.net/Dead%20Horse.jpg"></div>

[nirav21]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN class=time_text><BR>  <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <P>Aim line- SniperShot 13kdmg crit</P> <P>Rain of Arrows hits mob of 5 doing 7k dmg each</P> <P>13K+5*7k = 48,000 dmg in 10sec</P> <P>Message Edited by nirav21 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:32 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was waiting for something like this - Lets assume its a single target mob, since AE's on both classes are ballanced.<BR><BR>Aim 1s<BR>Rain 2s<BR>snipers 5s<BR><BR>8s total<BR><BR>Using your numbers<BR>18k damage within 8 seconds.. = 2.2kish.. (this is a spike, not our dps)<BR><BR>Now lets assume the assassin has not crited.<BR><BR>Killing blade 0.5s  7k<BR>Eviscerate 0.5s    3k<BR>Jugular 0.5s         2k <BR>Cloaked assault 2s  2.2k (I believe it ticks 5 times)<BR>Slaughtersault 3s   3k<BR>(may have cloaked/slaughter's casts mixed up)<BR><BR>15.2k in 5.5s<BR><BR>8-5.5=2.5/8=31.25%<BR><BR>0.3125*18k = 5625<BR><BR>5625+15.2k=20825<BR><BR>20825<BR>-18000<BR>=2825<BR><BR>Using your own logic of damage, and assuming it would be a linear diffrence.. This is what the diffrence you would get.. Assassin still beats out the ranger by 10% in this circumstance. And, this is pure burst dps we are including..<BR><BR>I have already come across this in several diffrent ways in a previous post.. The damages between the two classes are similar, but since the cast times vary you get a large diffrence in overall dps.<BR><BR>Assassins beat rangers in recycle time per dps, dps, sustained dps, and burst dps.. We are even in AE dps.<BR><BR>Ohhh.. and PLEASE keep throwing more numbers at me!! Im serious - it makes it that much easier on me.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by LoreLady on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:10 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok so how many more spells do assasins have left? And how many more spells do Rangers have left?</P> <P>we have Rangers blade not included, 5 more Range CAs ( selection, precise shot, etc). We have the mighty heat debuff. Which goes very nicely with wizards and other heat dmgs. What doe Assasins have? Poison debuffs?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Altough i do agree with you that Rangers are lacking but i would say just a tad bit*</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I think most of this nerfs came from PVP. Thats where i have my Ranger and i like it more than any class. </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Hopefull in EOF we would be Gods. since we on the cover:smileyhappy:</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[TerriBlades]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN class=time_text> <P></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>I think most of this nerfs came from <FONT color=#ff0000>PVP. Thats where i have my Ranger</FONT> and i like it more than any class. </SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just stop talking now, plz.. the fact that you play a ranger on PVP explains every last one of your statements. Seeing as how you cant even group with classes from freeport, you dont have any idea. Rangers are just fine for groups, and solo, and it seems even PVP. The problems is with raid rangers. Thats where the numbers fall short.</P> <P>Edit: Spelling</P><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class=date_text>08-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 PM</span>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN class=time_text><BR>  <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <P>Aim line- SniperShot 13kdmg crit</P> <P>Rain of Arrows hits mob of 5 doing 7k dmg each</P> <P>13K+5*7k = 48,000 dmg in 10sec</P> <P>Message Edited by nirav21 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:32 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was waiting for something like this - Lets assume its a single target mob, since AE's on both classes are ballanced.<BR><BR>Aim 1s<BR>Rain 2s<BR>snipers 5s<BR><BR>8s total<BR><BR>Using your numbers<BR>18k damage within 8 seconds.. = 2.2kish.. (this is a spike, not our dps)<BR><BR>Now lets assume the assassin has not crited.<BR><BR>Killing blade 0.5s  7k<BR>Eviscerate 0.5s    3k<BR>Jugular 0.5s         2k <BR>Cloaked assault 2s  2.2k (I believe it ticks 5 times)<BR>Slaughtersault 3s   3k<BR>(may have cloaked/slaughter's casts mixed up)<BR><BR>15.2k in 5.5s<BR><BR>8-5.5=2.5/8=31.25%<BR><BR>0.3125*18k = 5625<BR><BR>5625+15.2k=20825<BR><BR>20825<BR>-18000<BR>=2825<BR><BR>Using your own logic of damage, and assuming it would be a linear diffrence.. This is what the diffrence you would get.. Assassin still beats out the ranger by 10% in this circumstance. And, this is pure burst dps we are including..<BR><BR>I have already come across this in several diffrent ways in a previous post.. The damages between the two classes are similar, but since the cast times vary you get a large diffrence in overall dps.<BR><BR>Assassins beat rangers in recycle time per dps, dps, sustained dps, and burst dps.. We are even in AE dps.<BR><BR>Ohhh.. and PLEASE keep throwing more numbers at me!! Im serious - it makes it that much easier on me.<BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by LoreLady on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:10 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok so how many more spells do assasins have left? And how many more spells do Rangers have left?</P> <P>we have Rangers blade not included, 5 more Range CAs ( selection, precise shot, etc). We have the mighty heat debuff. Which goes very nicely with wizards and other heat dmgs. What doe Assasins have? Poison debuffs?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Altough i do agree with you that Rangers are lacking but i would say just a tad bit*</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I think most of this nerfs came from PVP. Thats where i have my Ranger and i like it more than any class. </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Hopefull in EOF we would be Gods. since we on the cover:smileyhappy:</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Malignant Mark - Hits 5 times for 1000-1500. Every 30secs</P> <P>Freezing Strike: 1200-3K (not on atm, but around there) 1min reuse</P> <P>Crippling Strike: 1200-3K 1min reuse </P> <P>3 other minor CA's that do minimal dmg.</P> <P>Decapitate: 15K-30K 10min reuse</P> <P>Neck Shot: 2K-4K 1min use</P> <P>Other range attacked (forget name lol): Same as Neck shot 1min reuse</P> <P> </P> <P>We do more damage period. None of your attacks will ever compare to Malignant Mark no matter what anyone says. </P>

[xandez]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonsviperz wrote:<div></div><p>We do more damage period. None of your attacks will ever compare to Malignant Mark no matter what anyone says. </p><hr></blockquote>Good for you! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan

[Imlach]

<P>Greetings,</P> <P>i find it quite ridiculous to post an answer to the OP comment... but to something i saw posted in here saying like "For PvP, Solo and Groups" rangers are doing fine... In raids we suck...</P> <P>Since i am not a hardcore raider (it does not mean i dont raid but i am sure there are many more able rangers than me on this field) i ll talk about Solo and Groups... now lets assume that i suck as a player and i had sucked all the time with my ranger and my DPS... now i have to spend fortune on arrows, do tons of dancing between ranged and melee CA's, use a 10 sec Crit increase CA every 30 secs, have to get best poisons possible to cost me even more fortune to par the player i used to be which sucks... Assuming that i am a decent player, then again i have to do all those above to be just decent... </P> <P>For being #1 DPS... well thats out of the question anyways... cuz whether in raid or not, if other classes outparse me as a ranger, they outparse me anyways in solo or group too... maybe with a narrower margin... but they do...</P> <P>arent i right? </P>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Not necessarily.The additional level of complexity thrown into the mix when it comes to raiding truly allows the disparity between rangers and assassins / rogues to manifest itself.  Whether it be due to lack procs off of ranged, double-attack, taking advantage of debuffs, or who knows what..in raiding rangers fall behind.  In group play, however, we can match pretty much any class out there.</font><div></div>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P></P><SPAN class=time_text>I think most of this nerfs came from <FONT color=#ff0000>PVP. Thats where i have my Ranger</FONT> and i like it more than any class. </SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just stop talking now, plz.. the fact that you play a ranger on PVP explains every last one of your statements. <FONT color=#66ff66>Seeing as how you cant even group with classes from freeport, you dont have any idea</FONT>. Rangers are just fine for groups, and solo, and it seems even PVP. The problems is with raid rangers. <FONT color=#ff6633>Thats where the numbers fall short</FONT>.</P> <P>Edit: Spelling</P> <P>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:56 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66ff33>I play on exile. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Maybe you ougth to go to EQ2census.com and check the numbers on Rangers 60-70 on your server</FONT>. I doubt there is lot of stuff to solo T7. Even when they as nerfed as you say there still tonz of Rangers among teh scout classes.  Now thats a suprise to me why do people still make Rangers over other scout class? Over brigands? If Rangers just plain old suck at raiding? Why at T7 are there more Rangers than anyother scout class?</P><p>Message Edited by nirav21 on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 AM</span>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>nirav21 wrote:</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff33>I play on exile. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Maybe you ougth to go to EQ2census.com and check the numbers on Rangers 60-70 on your server</FONT>. I doubt there is lot of stuff to solo T7. Even when they as nerfed as you say there still tonz of Rangers among teh scout classes.  Now thats a suprise to me why do people still make Rangers over other scout class? Over brigands? If Rangers just plain old suck at raiding? Why at T7 are there more Rangers than anyother scout class?</P> <P>Message Edited by nirav21 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-21-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:45 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Rangers are one of the most popular classes for roleplayers across all MMORPGs, along with wizards.  Blame Hollywood if you need to point a finger, but it doesn't really have anything to do with actual in-game productivity.<BR>

[Jay]

<P>Wow, I almost made the mistake of reading the rest of this thread! Phew!</P> <P>Seriously peeps, if you want to hold fast to your opinions, go right ahead. Nobody is going to "prove" anything here. If you think the class is great and you're having a blast playing it, keep on truckin. There's no reason to come here and try to convince somebody who doesn't feel the same way that you're "right." It just doesn't make any difference. But if that's how you want to spend your time, go right ahead.</P> <P>PS: The number of ppl playing X class on Y server has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics of the class itself. </P>

[Bi]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dragonsviperz wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> bieb wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Maeryth wrote:Assassins have 3 Ranged Attacks. 1 from Behind, 1 while Flanking, One 2 shot from Any direction. Properly fired from a 62 Assassin, A Level 65 Mob is dropped to Redline on the pull. That's before the arsenal of Melee attacks available when the mob gets there. Did I mention this is for Solo Assassins? In groups there are nifty skills like concealemnt where you can fire all of your Stealthed attacks in under 7 seconds. Option B against Solo mobs is to just stand there and Auto Attack it to death faster than a Ranger can. Rangers ARE Ranged and their Ranged abilities should match the same abilities of a Stealthed Assassin. They do not. Assassins can Literally stand still and press buttons and do more damage than a Ranger can. It is wrong. It needs to be Fixed. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>just thought i would laugh at this seriously misinformed post :] I dont know any time that an assassin can drop a mob that isnt a / or maybe green/very weak to redline from ranged.if we get a positional ranged attack we can get 2 attacks off before the mob hits us, otherwise we are stuck with just one. as soon as you hit a mob it faces you, so you only get 1 positional off.<font color="#ff0000">I dont know anyone who can actually get all their stealth attacks off using concealment (which is 10 seconds, not 7) added to the incredible lag you get with concealment (especially on raids) which sometimes means you dont get any attacks off at all,</font> as the server doesnt register you as being stealthed until most of the timer is up, and then maybe the mob has turned, or there is a new target....On topic of brigands outdpsing rangers.. equal skill and equipment, as well as being in the right group and this shouldnt really happen.. Brig's do nice dps tho</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Then you don't know any good assassins.<font color="#ffff00"> Every assassin I know gets off almost every BS</font>.<font color="#cc0033">obviously someone doesnt know the meaning of ALL huh?</font> On average I get Killing Blade, Eviscerate, Jugular, Cloaked Assault, and Slaughtersault, and even have time for one more BS most the time. Sometimes I won't get off Slaughtersault (leave that for the end since its longer castin time). </p> <p>Let me add up all that damage 1 Concealment can do, which also lowers aggro by 40% at Master 1. </p> <p>Killing Blade: 4K - 7K listed damage, and can crit to 13K</p> <p>Eviscerate: 2K - 3K listed dmg, and can crit to 6K</p> <p>Jugular: 1300 - 2K listed dmg, and can crit to 5K</p> <p>Cloaked Assault: AE CA, 700-1200 listed dmg, plus a 214 point dot. AE can crit up to 3K and dot at 350.</p> <p>Slaughtersault: 1200 - 3K dmg. AE CA. Can crit to 5K.</p> <p>So adding all those up: 9200 - 32000(all crits) every min basically, and time that with a brigands dispatch (1 min timer also), and you are more likely to hit towards the high end of all those skills.</p> <p>So where in the ranger's arsenal is any skill that can compare to that?</p><hr></blockquote>not debating that assassins do more dps than rangers. I'm saying that assassins can't get all of their positionals off in one shot. You missed decap, as well as Puncture Blade in your lineup... (they qualify as positionals, so ALL means erm.. all (suprise!))Also debating that assassins can red-line any solo mob on a pull from a standstill (unlikely at best afaik)So maybe I shouldn't have quoted the last line as well, but what I was addressing was still correct.</div>

[Bi]

Also on average I am 2-3s into concealment before my client has realised that I am stealthed.I start with killing blade, and generally get off jugular, eviscerate and one other(usually cloaked assault) and sometimes another (slaughter or puncture blade, unless decap is up)wtg servers that are allocated based on zone rather than population... eg deathtoll when there are 2-3 other raids in, or lab which our guild share the night with 1-4 other guilds..and considering that we are based in australia, pinging servers in the US - what feels like the east coast (although I may be wrong on this)...considering my shooter experience and what lag feels like i'm pinging 3-500 some days raiding; which is quite sizable when you have to wait for a rtt to do things like concealment :]<div></div>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bieb wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bieb wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maeryth wrote:<BR>Assassins have 3 Ranged Attacks. 1 from Behind, 1 while Flanking, One 2 shot from Any direction. Properly fired from a 62 Assassin, A Level 65 Mob is dropped to Redline on the pull. That's before the arsenal of Melee attacks available when the mob gets there. Did I mention this is for Solo Assassins? In groups there are nifty skills like concealemnt where you can fire all of your Stealthed attacks in under 7 seconds. Option B against Solo mobs is to just stand there and Auto Attack it to death faster than a Ranger can. Rangers ARE Ranged and their Ranged abilities should match the same abilities of a Stealthed Assassin. They do not. Assassins can Literally stand still and press buttons and do more damage than a Ranger can. It is wrong. It needs to be Fixed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>just thought i would laugh at this seriously misinformed post :] I dont know any time that an assassin can drop a mob that isnt a / or maybe green/very weak to redline from ranged.if we get a positional ranged attack we can get 2 attacks off before the mob hits us, otherwise we are stuck with just one. as soon as you hit a mob it faces you, so you only get 1 positional off.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I dont know anyone who can actually get all their stealth attacks off using concealment (which is 10 seconds, not 7) added to the incredible lag you get with concealment (especially on raids) which sometimes means you dont get any attacks off at all,</FONT> as the server doesnt register you as being stealthed until most of the timer is up, and then maybe the mob has turned, or there is a new target....<BR><BR>On topic of brigands outdpsing rangers.. equal skill and equipment, as well as being in the right group and this shouldnt really happen.. Brig's do nice dps tho<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then you don't know any good assassins.<FONT color=#ffff00> Every assassin I know gets off almost every BS</FONT>.<FONT color=#cc0033>obviously someone doesnt know the meaning of ALL huh?</FONT> On average I get Killing Blade, Eviscerate, Jugular, Cloaked Assault, and Slaughtersault, and even have time for one more BS most the time. Sometimes I won't get off Slaughtersault (leave that for the end since its longer castin time). </P> <P>Let me add up all that damage 1 Concealment can do, which also lowers aggro by 40% at Master 1. </P> <P>Killing Blade: 4K - 7K listed damage, and can crit to 13K</P> <P>Eviscerate: 2K - 3K listed dmg, and can crit to 6K</P> <P>Jugular: 1300 - 2K listed dmg, and can crit to 5K</P> <P>Cloaked Assault: AE CA, 700-1200 listed dmg, plus a 214 point dot. AE can crit up to 3K and dot at 350.</P> <P>Slaughtersault: 1200 - 3K dmg. AE CA. Can crit to 5K.</P> <P>So adding all those up: 9200 - 32000(all crits) every min basically, and time that with a brigands dispatch (1 min timer also), and you are more likely to hit towards the high end of all those skills.</P> <P>So where in the ranger's arsenal is any skill that can compare to that?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>not debating that assassins do more dps than rangers. I'm saying that assassins can't get all of their positionals off in one shot. You missed decap, as well as Puncture Blade in your lineup... (they qualify as positionals, so ALL means erm.. all (suprise!))<BR><BR>Also debating that assassins can red-line any solo mob on a pull from a standstill (unlikely at best afaik)<BR><BR>So maybe I shouldn't have quoted the last line as well, but what I was addressing was still correct.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I use Pblade with Masked Attack since they both have the same reuse timer. It makes sense. And I can throw in Decap most the time, its just I save that attack for named mobs or the occasional too many adds pull.</P> <P>And I said we do more damamge period, because I'm trying to say that rangers potentially cannot compare to assassins. Add up all of our CA damage, and figure in casting time and reuse timer, assassins are just better, and there needs to be some type of balance. </P> <P>By adding something like Concealment, or Mark line it would easily boost a ranger's dps a bit. <BR></P>

[Gerdos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>And I said we do more damamge period, because I'm trying to say that rangers potentially cannot compare to assassins. Add up all of our CA damage, and figure in casting time and reuse timer, assassins are just better, and there needs to be some type of balance.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>100% Correct</P> <P><BR> </P>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>And I said we do more damamge period, because I'm trying to say that rangers potentially cannot compare to assassins. Add up all of our CA damage, and figure in casting time and reuse timer, assassins are just better, and there needs to be some type of balance.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>100% Correct</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok so i would say its a proven fact that assasin does more dmg than ranger.</P> <P>If as a Ranger you are arguing that you wish you would have done more dmg than why not betray to assasin as many of you have done?</P> <P>The people who argue that Rangers should do same amount of dps as Assasin</P> <P>would be like argueing Gaurdians to do same amount of dps as Bezerker.</P> <P>So then you would aruge that if not than there is nothing good about this class so why play?</P> <P>Well ok so dunt play or just betray to assasin if you feel there is nothing good about Ranger.</P> <P>its simple. </P>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Well ok so dunt play or just betray to assasin if you feel there is nothing good about Ranger.</P> <P>its simple.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, that's not a viable option. 1. Some people WANT to be a Ranger, but STILL be viable in raids. 2. It's a way a player can avoid the problem, but avoiding a problem doesn't solve it. It's STILL a problem of class imbalance in high end raids. And that's where the problems lie, not solo, not group.</P> <P>Rangers have no other role then dps. And other classes bring either more of it or the same dps, but more utility to the raid. So what will Rangers bring? Your argument about 'beeing ranged is better' doesn't hold in raids, cause A) you have to be in sweet spot to get max dps (something you yourself stated) and B) the raid leader doesn't give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you have less repair costs. What he gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about is that you was hanging back and doing crap dps cause you didn't joust.</P>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>The people who argue that Rangers should do same amount of dps as Assasin</P> <P>would be like argueing Gaurdians to do same amount of dps as Bezerker.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Let me see if I understand this...</P> <P>A bezerker is the evil version of a guardian and a guardian is the good version of a berzerker.  I don't think so.  The relationship between a guardian and bezerker is way different than that of the Assassin/Ranger relationship.  But why stop there?  Why not say something like, "The people who argue that Rangers should do the same DPS as assassins would be like arguing that warlocks should be able to heal as well as a defilers."<BR></P>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nirav21 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gerdos wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>And I said we do more damamge period, because I'm trying to say that rangers potentially cannot compare to assassins. Add up all of our CA damage, and figure in casting time and reuse timer, assassins are just better, and there needs to be some type of balance.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>100% Correct</P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok so i would say its a proven fact that assasin does more dmg than ranger.</P> <P>If as a Ranger you are arguing that you wish you would have done more dmg than why not betray to assasin as many of you have done?</P> <P>The people who argue that Rangers should do same amount of dps as Assasin</P> <P>would be like argueing Gaurdians to do same amount of dps as Bezerker.</P> <P>So then you would aruge that if not than there is nothing good about this class so why play?</P> <P>Well ok so dunt play or just betray to assasin if you feel there is nothing good about Ranger.</P> <P>its simple. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>See that makes no sense because a Guardian does somethings better then a zerker that are actually important. For one, they have more HP buffs. They also have Tower of Stone which is extremely important. They are both pretty equal in usefulness, but comparing a ranger/assassin to a zerker/guardian is pretty obsurd.</P> <P>What I was thinking to actually make rangers useful was to make some encounters in EoF very situational. Make it so that the mobs HAVE to be jousted, and the AE goes off frequently. Have a few of those mobs spread around EoF. While it doesn't solve all the problems rangers have, it will help out the ranger usefulness. Just a thought.</P>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>nirav21 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gerdos wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dragonsviperz wrote: <div></div> <p>And I said we do more damamge period, because I'm trying to say that rangers potentially cannot compare to assassins. Add up all of our CA damage, and figure in casting time and reuse timer, assassins are just better, and there needs to be some type of balance.</p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>100% Correct</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Ok so i would say its a proven fact that assasin does more dmg than ranger.</p> <p>If as a Ranger you are arguing that you wish you would have done more dmg than why not betray to assasin as many of you have done?</p> <p>The people who argue that Rangers should do same amount of dps as Assasin</p> <p>would be like argueing Gaurdians to do same amount of dps as Bezerker.</p> <p>So then you would aruge that if not than there is nothing good about this class so why play?</p> <p>Well ok so dunt play or just betray to assasin if you feel there is nothing good about Ranger.</p> <p>its simple. </p><hr></blockquote>We don't WANT to be assassins. We are not evil, most of us are (at least a little) roleplayers. We played gimped Rangers in EQ1, we played Rangers in D&D AD&D and countless other games. We are not evil throat slitters, we are the masters of the hunt.Why not betray to assassin? I'd rather roll up a healer.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>jarlaxle888 wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ff0000">No, that's not a viable option. 1. Some people WANT to be a Ranger, but STILL be viable in raids. 2. It's a way a player can avoid the problem, but avoiding a problem doesn't solve it. It's STILL a problem of class imbalance in high end raids. And that's where the problems lie, not solo, not group.</font></p> <p>Rangers have no other role then dps. And other classes bring either more of it or the same dps, but more utility to the raid. So what will Rangers bring? Your argument about 'beeing ranged is better' doesn't hold in raids, cause A) you have to be in sweet spot to get max dps (something you yourself stated) and B) the raid leader doesn't give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you have less repair costs. What he gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about is that you was hanging back and doing crap dps cause you didn't joust.</p><hr></blockquote>The stuff in red reminds me of a friend who was a Pally.  He wanted to be raid MT.  He LOVEd the idea, concept, roleplay etc etc of the Pally, played a pally in every single RPG he's ever played.  He soon came to realise that his idea of what a pally could and should do wasnt the same as what it did do in game.  He eventually realised that rather than pray for the impossible that they would fix the Pally class the way he wanted it.. he rerolled as a Guardian and pretends (i guess) that he is virtuous and fighting for good and what not. The point is wish for a DPS increase for Rangers in one hand.. and crap in the other.. smack em together and see what ya got.If you want great raid DPS, betray to an assassin.  if you want to be a noodle flinger, stay a ranger and learn to like the class the way it is.just my opinion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<div>We don't WANT to be assassins. We are not evil, most of us are (at least a little) roleplayers. We played gimped Rangers in EQ1, we played Rangers in D&D AD&D and countless other games. We are not evil throat slitters, we are the masters of the hunt.Why not betray to assassin? I'd rather roll up a healer.</div><hr></blockquote>oh cmon now.. your missin out on alot of fun <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />its really easy to Roleplay an assassin as a Ranger ... just dont use most of your abilities.. you'll have the DPS, and Ranged aspects of a Ranger !,... hehe.. and then for those times when your tired of puttin on the skirt and being the catcher .. you'll have the fun DPS to go bonkers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Zholain]

<div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">nirav21 wrote:</font><p><font size="2">If as a Ranger you are arguing that you wish you would have done more dmg than why not betray to assasin as many of you have done?</font></p><hr></blockquote><font size="2">Do you also suggest that when someone has a headache they simply visit the local guillotine?I'm afraid your proposed solution is nothing more than an easy cop-out.  Nothing against those rangers who have already betrayed.  I even considered it myself for a while.  But betraying doesn't solve the problem of a lack of viability in the class.</font></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zholain wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><font size="2">nirav21 wrote:</font><p><font size="2">If as a Ranger you are arguing that you wish you would have done more dmg than why not betray to assasin as many of you have done?</font></p><hr></blockquote><font size="2">Do you also suggest that when someone has a headache they simply visit the local guillotine?I'm afraid your proposed solution is nothing more than an easy cop-out.  Nothing against those rangers who have already betrayed.  I even considered it myself for a while.  <font color="#ff0000">But betraying doesn't solve the problem of a lack of viability in the class.</font></font></div><hr></blockquote>it most certainly does.  As a betrayed Ranger i am now 100% happy with the viability of the Ranger class <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> **** Sense of humor required.</div>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2">Considering that many of the rangers here were in strong support of assassins getting a boost back in t6, its difficult for me to find your method of helping as amusing.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 PM</span>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR> <FONT size=2>Considering that many of the rangers here were in strong support of assassins getting a boost back in t6, its difficult for me to find your method of helping as amusing.<BR></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Zholain on <SPAN class=date_text>08-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:49 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*cough* I'm helping *cough*</P> <P>Sorry, I have hairballs from time to time....my Doctor doesn't know whats wrong with me. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">LOL Tig...    It's noticed and appreciated</font><div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR> <FONT size=2>Considering that many of the rangers here were in strong support of assassins getting a boost back in t6, its difficult for me to find your method of helping as amusing.<BR></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Zholain on <SPAN class=date_text>08-22-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:49 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*cough* I'm helping *cough*</P> <P>Sorry, I have hairballs from time to time....my Doctor doesn't know whats wrong with me. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's easy to answer.  Skratch is spiking your beers with small amounts poison so you won't taste it.  In another month you'll be dead of mysterious causes and he will become the undisbuted assassin king of dissolution.</P> <P> </P>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR><FONT size=2>LOL Tig...    It's noticed and appreciated<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>WOOOT! I am accepted some where....</P> <P>I'm trying to think of anything that would help increase the ranger dps, and/or make them more desirable. By ways of AA's, CA's, buffs, minor utility, and even encounter scripts. Just anything that would maybe catch the eye of a dev and make them wonder. I just want an actual fix to rangers, not a nerf to assassins.</P>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR> <FONT size=2>Considering that many of the rangers here were in strong support of assassins getting a boost back in t6, its difficult for me to find your method of helping as amusing.<BR></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Zholain on <SPAN class=date_text>08-22-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:49 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*cough* I'm helping *cough*</P> <P>Sorry, I have hairballs from time to time....my Doctor doesn't know whats wrong with me. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's easy to answer.  Skratch is spiking your beers with small amounts poison so you won't taste it.  In another month you'll be dead of mysterious causes and he will become the undisbuted assassin king of dissolution.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I knew I tasted something weird...

[Gailstryd]

<P>Hehe I like your help and your motives Tig!  It is good to see you on our side.  (BTW did you leave BB? Haven't seen you in forever so my guess is yes hehe.) </P> <P>I personally had a big discussion with some friends about betraying and when it was all said and done I couldn't do something like betray to my toon.  Rhanin (myranger) is more to me than just a means of having fun and doing dps, those things are important and hand and hand but not everything.  Ultimately if I fail to have fun on Rha I'll eventually just get down to it and make an alt (prolly a swash have an assassin who i don't really care for to be honest no offense intended) who will prolly wind up my new main.  But rhanin is here to stay forever, I created him to be a ranger and he is the class I most wanted and still want to play from an rp aspect.  I like the dps and mechanic's behind swashies, but hate that they are called swashies lol and the rp class feel that goes with it.  If they were just a good ole simple rogue I could rp my  own way without hte silly name misleading peeps then I prolly would have a swash alt at 70 already.   Lol at this point I'm really wishing they add a few classes at some point though it may not be very practical.  Going over all my options I would still choose Ranger first and the other options available drive me bonkers because they either have hte rp style I want or they have the abilities/effectiveness I want but not both.  Ranger use to have both for me even pre lu13 and post lu13 was nice but in the end I wish they hadn't changed my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] class so much and I was still playing the ranger I made.  Change is good most of the time imo, but a lot of the change brought about to the Ranger since release just sucks lol.  As of right now I am busy doing the best I can to make Rhanin effective, and I find myself making good leeway and I don't se myself changing mains anytime soon.  </P>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>nirav21 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Ok so how many more spells do assasins have left? And how many more spells do Rangers have left?</p></blockquote><hr></blockquote>The analysis has already been done.<img src="http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/525/summarybe2.jpg">Using a damage / recycle time approach, this is the average DPS each class can pull in each area over 30s intervals.<div></div>

[Snarks]

rangers should be at the very top of parsers, not because of their 'advantage'  to fighting ranged, but because they have nothing else to offermy belated 2c<div></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>If you want great raid DPS, betray to an assassin.  if you want to be a noodle flinger, stay a ranger and learn to like the class the way it is.<BR><BR>just my opinion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Now, let me make something clear to you and the other 'just betray' or 'we are fine' people:</P> <P>1) I like my class. I didn't say I disliked it. And, as I and others said before, taking the easy 'play another class' route doesn't solve any problems.</P> <P>2) A lot of times I'm on top of parse on the raids our guild does. Yesterday I looked at the parse of the whole evening, and I left our Assassins, our Necros, our Brigands, whatever you name, behind me.</P> <P>Thing is, I don't come along here and try to convince those guys from Dissolution and other high end guilds that Rangers are fine and dandy. Because my guild isn't high end yet. So I have no idea about that aspect, and that's what those guys are talking about. Why should I dispute what they see? Especially considering I CAN'T prove they are wrong, cause my guild is not there yet.<BR></P>

[Beneld]

<font size="4">i dont know what yall are doing but the usefullness of a ranger in raids is nice range DPS and yes assassians can do more dmg then me but not much i can still hang with em what are they in range fights tho? uhh 100dps? where are we? yea</font><div></div>

[Beneld]

I think you mean the strength line. The agility line reduces CAST time of your arts. Teh strength line reduces recast time of all arts with 2 minute or more cast times. For Rangers this means Snipers and Veiled Fire.Correction it affects Storm of arrows(Rain of arrows for you 70s) and Sniper shot<div></div>

[Sokolov]

<blockquote><hr>Beneldar wrote:<font size="4">i dont know what yall are doing but the usefullness of a ranger in raids is nice range DPS and yes assassians can do more dmg then me but not much i can still hang with em what are they in range fights tho? uhh 100dps? where are we? yea</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>Assassins deal slightly over half the damage a ranger does in a Ranged only fight.  But seriously, how many of those are there in the game?  1?<div></div>

[Dragonsviperz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beneldar wrote:<BR><FONT size=4>i dont know what yall are doing but the usefullness of a ranger in raids is nice range DPS and yes assassians can do more dmg then me but not much i can still hang with em what are they in range fights tho? uhh 100dps? where are we? yea<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Assassins deal slightly over half the damage a ranger does in a Ranged only fight.  But seriously, how many of those are there in the game?  1?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>1 that I can think of, and thats Chel'Drak. The Corsolander I don't even range anymore. I turn off auto attack jousting my BS's. If my ranged CA is up, I'll use it. But its mostly melee for me on that mob.

[Sokolov]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dragonsviperz wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Beneldar wrote:<font size="4">i dont know what yall are doing but the usefullness of a ranger in raids is nice range DPS and yes assassians can do more dmg then me but not much i can still hang with em what are they in range fights tho? uhh 100dps? where are we? yea</font> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Assassins deal slightly over half the damage a ranger does in a Ranged only fight.  But seriously, how many of those are there in the game?  1? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>1 that I can think of, and thats Chel'Drak. The Corsolander I don't even range anymore. I turn off auto attack jousting my BS's. If my ranged CA is up, I'll use it. But its mostly melee for me on that mob.<hr></blockquote>But, but, RANGED ADVANTAGE FTW!</div>

[Gerdos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dragonsviperz wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beneldar wrote:<BR><FONT size=4>i dont know what yall are doing but the usefullness of a ranger in raids is nice range DPS and yes assassians can do more dmg then me but not much i can still hang with em what are they in range fights tho? uhh 100dps? where are we? yea<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Assassins deal slightly over half the damage a ranger does in a Ranged only fight.  But seriously, how many of those are there in the game?  1?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>1 that I can think of, and thats Chel'Drak. The Corsolander I don't even range anymore. I turn off auto attack jousting my BS's. If my ranged CA is up, I'll use it. But its mostly melee for me on that mob.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Add in Korzak the Contructer, makes a tough fight extremely easy.  Not necessarily a ranged only fight (none are), but making this a ranged only encounter, gives a huge advantage to the raid, allowing the rest of the raid to top up in preparation for Divine Mattron ... who is also a little easier to handle with range.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[LoreLady]

I dunno why everyone keeps goin on about the "ranged only" stuff, theres really only 1 maybe two fights out there that you could possibly use ranged only to some actuall benifit.If you ask me, having utility like poison combination = any ranged advantage we might have... Hell, every scout/mage class is able to do pretty good damage at range.. And at range, most mage classes (summoners/wizards) will outdamage any ranger in a range fight..And, a brigand can stay toe to toe with a mob for the entire fight without having to worry about AE. And still come ontop on the ranger in a ranged only fight..

[Jowita]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saihung23 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hi Everyone, hows it going?  Good good good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to Jay42 and everyone, why is it that whenever I am behind an SUV...a BIG SUV like an expedition or something...and we come up to train tracks or some small pothole or dip in the road...They Have to swerve around it like they are driving a lowrider pick-up?  I mean...COME ON!! You are driving a truck that has almost 15 full inches between the bottom of it and the ground...my crown victoria has no issues going over the tracks...what is wrong with you people?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I drive an Expedition. These days, they're not all that big. I mean, next to an H2 they look puny. Like a 2-door Explorer. And what is it with Explorer drivers, anyway? In my studied opinion, and after 10+ years of hard-earned research on the highways and byways of Chicago, I've come to the inescapable conclusion that Explorer drivers are nothing more than reckless, thoughtless, cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, tail-gating, floor-flushing, low-life, horn-honking, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, d*ickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-arsed, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, snotty-lipped, worm-headed sacks of monkey shi*t!</P> <P>Hallejulia! Holy SH*IT!</P> <P>Ow. What were we talking about? LoreLady was saying something, but I got distracted. Sorry.</P> <P> </P> <P>Jowita</P><p>Message Edited by Flidias on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:26 AM</span>

[TaleraRis]

*hands Jo some Tylenol* <div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<P>One needs more then Tylenol to cope with driving in Chicago! Some sort of stress relief is needed. Something like Stupid Seeking Missiles behind the headlights.Yeah, that would work. Just launch one or two of those a day, and your commute is instantly better.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now lets get back on topic.</P>

[Jowita]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR>*hands Jo some Tylenol*<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That has to be my favorite all-time movie quote. Has me in tears every time I see Chevy Chase's bug-eyed rage. I'm chuckling silently even now.</P> <P>Jowita</P>

[TaleraRis]

<DIV>Yeah I love that scene</DIV>

[Jowita]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <P>One needs more then Tylenol to cope with driving in Chicago! Some sort of stress relief is needed. Something like Stupid Seeking Missiles behind the headlights.Yeah, that would work. Just launch one or two of those a day, and your commute is instantly better.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now lets get back on topic.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This would work as long as you're able to dodge exploding debris.</P> <P>And yes, I agree. Back on topic. My apologies. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Jowita</P>

[xandez]

gee, this thread still alive? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />burn it down already, will ya... *yawn*++Xan<div></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xandez wrote:<BR>gee, this thread still alive? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>burn it down already, will ya... *yawn*<BR><BR><BR>++Xan <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, does that mean:</P> <P>A) You want it to die? You ain't helping by rezzing it after 5 days of lying undisturbed :smileytongue:</P> <P>B) You want it to really 'burn' in a flame fest? Well, it's gotten kind of lame. And I have no real good ideas for flame bait either... :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[xandez]

that would be B) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />MUAHAHAHAaaaa *sigh*sry, im bored at work... so... sniff.++Xan<div></div>

[nirav21]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT size=2>nirav21 wrote:<BR></FONT> <P><FONT size=2>If as a Ranger you are arguing that you wish you would have done more dmg than why not betray to assasin as many of you have done?</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2>Do you also suggest that when someone has a headache they simply visit the local guillotine?<BR><BR>I'm afraid your proposed solution is nothing more than an easy cop-out.  Nothing against those rangers who have already betrayed.  I even considered it myself for a while.  But betraying doesn't solve the problem of a lack of viability in the class.<BR></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No i am suggesting people to play a class that is more fun for there purpose.</P> <P>People should play there classes to have fun!! right?</P> <P>Why would you want to play a class if you are not having fun?</P> <P>If your idea of fun is T7 Raid. Then pick Assasin. </P> <P>If your idea of fun is showing off your uber leet bow to the ladies then pick Ranger:smileywink:</P> <P>You can only have one thing. Ladies or Hard core raiding experience(for nerds).<BR></P>

[LoreLady]

Or you can take my option - seriously contemplating not buying another gamecard after it expires in october and staying away from the ranger class for good.. They seriously goofed it in EQ1 - they goofed it for the 3rd time in EQ2.<div></div>

[Zholain]

<div><blockquote><hr>nirav21 wrote:<div></div> <p><font size="2">No i am suggesting people to play a class that is more fun for there purpose.</font></p> <p><font size="2">People should play there classes to have fun!! right?</font></p> <p><font size="2">Why would you want to play a class if you are not having fun?</font></p> <p><font size="2">If your idea of fun is T7 Raid. Then pick Assasin. </font></p> <p><font size="2">If your idea of fun is showing off your uber leet bow to the ladies then pick Ranger:smileywink:</font></p> <p><font size="2">You can only have one thing. Ladies or Hard core raiding experience(for nerds).</font></p><hr></blockquote><font size="2">Or...You can ask for the same thing that SOE did for assassins...and that is to make them a viable raiding class.Every responsible ranger I know was asking for this in the DoF days, as were assassins.  And they got it.</font></div>

[nirav21]

Yea there is that you can ask for the easymode button.

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Yeah, cause our dps is sooo easy to come by, now.  Sheesh.</font><div></div>

[Jay]

<P>Cat darling... you know better than to feed the trolls. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">But I'm actually having fun with this one  !!!</font><div></div>

[Jay]

<P>ROFL! Then by all means, proceed... far be in from me to stand in the way of fun on the forums <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Just save the catnip for meeeee</P>

[Teksun]

/salute CatThe cute one, not the furball...<div></div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">/bows humbly at TeksunMaybe now a logical discussion can be had more easily, anyway.</font><div></div>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zholain wrote:<BR><FONT size=2>Maybe now a logical discussion can be had more easily, anyway.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know you can't have logical discussions while I am in the building!</P> <P>Why do banana's enjoy driving tractors?</P> <P>/discuss</P>