Stream... again :)

[Memran]

<DIV>I've been thinking about a better version of stream...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently its not very good, and there is no risk/reward balance to think about when using it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I propose a change like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc66><STRONG>Stream of Arrows (Master I)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Fires a steady stream of arrows at a target. To maintain this effect, the ranger forgoes normal ranged attacks and combat arts and must be rooted in place, and it requires that the target be outside of melee range. This ability can be toggled to end early if needed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3333>FABLED</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Target         Enemy</DIV> <DIV>Power         13 to cast</DIV> <DIV>                   13 every 1.5 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Casting       Instant</DIV> <DIV>Recovery    0.5 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Recast        30.0 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Duration      Until cancelled</DIV> <DIV>Weight        1.0</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level           55</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Ranger</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc66>Effects:</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Applies Stream Shot</FONT></DIV> <DIV>    Inflicts 1100-1500 ranged damage on target</DIV> <DIV>         If Bow equipped in Ranged</DIV> <DIV>Roots caster</DIV> <DIV>Dazes caster</DIV> <DIV>Stifles caster</DIV> <DIV>Inctreases Hate Gain of caster by 1% per shot</DIV> <DIV>If bow equipped in Ranged</DIV> <DIV>Resistability incereases against targets higher than level 75.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Key changes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Duration is until cancelled (or mob dies, or interupted, or ranger dies <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV> <DIV>Hate gain is per shot and stacks up - high risk if using too long, but makes it more usable with a good tank</DIV> <DIV>Damage increased to be inline with our DPS number - this depends on class of the ability obviously</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Discuss please <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[BSbon]

i dont think durration should be until cancelled only. it should have a durration or until cancelled.

[Saihung23]

<P>I would think this would help SoA become a useful ability rather than a "let me use this while I go take a bio real quick" ability.</P> <P>Any improvement on it would be nice.</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Saihung23 wrote: <P>I would think this would help SoA become a useful ability rather than a "let me use this while I go take a bio real quick" ability.</P> <P>Any improvement on it would be nice.</P><hr></blockquote> Or you could just go afk with ranged auto-attack on for more damage.

[Saihung23]

<P>lol</P> <P>This is true Pinski.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saihung23 wrote:<BR> <P>I would think this would help SoA become a useful ability rather than a "let me use this while I go take a bio real quick" ability.</P> <P>Any improvement on it would be nice.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Or you could just go afk with ranged auto-attack on for more damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That's excatly why I say leave it at 30 sec duration with 1 arrow every 1.5 sec but take out the CA damage and let it just use auto-attack damage.<BR>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Serventof Wrath wrote:That's excatly why I say leave it at 30 sec duration with 1 arrow every 1.5 sec but take out the CA damage and let it just use auto-attack damage.<BR><hr></blockquote>Don't you think that could lead to a bit overpowered? I mean, use a 9.0s delay bow(Ghostly Bow), and you'll be getting damage based on a 9.0s delay every 1.5s instead, which is 3x as much as you'd be getting if you just had 100% haste. While something needs to be done to fix Stream, just making it do the same as your auto-attack every 1.5s can become a bit overpowered when combined with certain weapons. Though what could be a cool-way to do it, is give you 100% Attack Speed/100% DPS, and maybe 10% Ranged Crit or something and it only stifles and roots you instead. Sure it wouldn't be great, but it'd be something that could be easily balanced around.

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Serventof Wrath wrote:<BR>That's excatly why I say leave it at 30 sec duration with 1 arrow every 1.5 sec but take out the CA damage and let it just use auto-attack damage.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Don't you think that could lead to a bit overpowered? I mean, use a 9.0s delay bow(Ghostly Bow), and you'll be getting damage based on a 9.0s delay every 1.5s instead, which is 3x as much as you'd be getting if you just had 100% haste. While something needs to be done to fix Stream, just making it do the same as your auto-attack every 1.5s can become a bit overpowered when combined with certain weapons. Though what could be a cool-way to do it, is give you 100% Attack Speed/100% DPS, and maybe 10% Ranged Crit or something and it only stifles and roots you instead. Sure it wouldn't be great, but it'd be something that could be easily balanced around.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/Agree</P> <P>The last thing I want is for us to have anything be overpowered again... the resulting nerfs would reduce us all to level 2 Commoners.</P>

[Deml]

<P>I don't know Pinski.  The thought of what I could do with my Sarnak bow firing for normal autoattack damage ever 1.5 seconds is just../drool.  At least it would be till the nerf bat beat me into oblivion.</P> <P>All joking aside, I agree with Pinski and Jay.  You couldn't have stream do normal autoattack damage.  That would put us back in the range of DoF dps and we would be majorly overpowered at that point.</P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Serventof Wrath wrote:<BR>That's excatly why I say leave it at 30 sec duration with 1 arrow every 1.5 sec but take out the CA damage and let it just use auto-attack damage.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Don't you think that could lead to a bit overpowered? I mean, use a 9.0s delay bow(Ghostly Bow), and you'll be getting damage based on a 9.0s delay every 1.5s instead, which is 3x as much as you'd be getting if you just had 100% haste. While something needs to be done to fix Stream, just making it do the same as your auto-attack every 1.5s can become a bit overpowered when combined with certain weapons. Though what could be a cool-way to do it, is give you 100% Attack Speed/100% DPS, and maybe 10% Ranged Crit or something and it only stifles and roots you instead. Sure it wouldn't be great, but it'd be something that could be easily balanced around.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/sigh i know.......</P> <P>but what about upping the recast to 3 minutes and increasing the hate from 10% to 20% then would it still make us overpowered?</P>

[Memran]

<P>Well the idea about the "until cancelled" is that you'd need a certain amount of skill to get the best, since the hate gain would go up <STRONG>per shot</STRONG>, meaning that if you let it run, you <STRONG>will</STRONG> pull agro, but if you got a good tank, or just know when to stop it. This would also prevent its use as an AFK tool, through fear of pulling agro.</P> <P>Looks like all you guys want is more DPS on the ability, well in my opinion that should come with a price - in this case its risk.</P> <P>As for the amount of damage.. I'm thinking that it should be slightly more than normal CA dps, because of the risk, when used for a sensible amount of time with an 'average' tank.</P> <P>Really, it is supposed to be one of our class-defining skills, instead of just an AFK tool.</P>

[Deml]

<DIV>ok, so using your example of it slowly gaining agro as it goes on, I could just use Hawk Dive then trigger stream.  For 30 seconds my Master 1 Hawk Dive will siphon 24% hate from me on top of my normal agro reduction skills and I do overpowered DPS for those 30 seconds without really gaining any real hate what so ever.  If I'm grouped with any hate reducing classes all I would need to do is coordinate it with them to be able to do more dps even longer after the bird poofs.  Well coordinated with group/raid you could probably keep this going for close to a minute without pulling agro if you really tried, and that's with it increasing your hate with each shot.  Keep in mind, this is all just initial thoughts on it without putting too much effort into ways to abuse something like that, and we all know that would happen eventually if it was changed to be hate increase until cancelled.</DIV>

[Jayad]

I think both Stream and the Bird just need to be redone from the ground up into something better.

[Jay]

Like...summoned food and drink! I nominate tacos.

[Memran]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demlar wrote:<BR> <DIV>ok, so using your example of it slowly gaining agro as it goes on, I could just use Hawk Dive then trigger stream.  For 30 seconds my Master 1 Hawk Dive will siphon 24% hate from me on top of my normal agro reduction skills and I do overpowered DPS for those 30 seconds without really gaining any real hate what so ever.  If I'm grouped with any hate reducing classes all I would need to do is coordinate it with them to be able to do more dps even longer after the bird poofs.  Well coordinated with group/raid you could probably keep this going for close to a minute without pulling agro if you really tried, and that's with it increasing your hate with each shot.  Keep in mind, this is all just initial thoughts on it without putting too much effort into ways to abuse something like that, and we all know that would happen eventually if it was changed to be hate increase until cancelled.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So that means both Stream AND the dumb birdie get a purpose <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> cool

[Ranvarenaya]

What if they made each shot of stream take 1.0 sec to cast, with .5 sec of recovery in between?  That way ranged auto-attack could trigger and fill in the blanks, bringing our dps for that 30 sec up to par and making it worthwile.<div></div>

[Prandtl]

autoattack can cast during recovery time?  Didn't realize that.

[Wil81115]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prandtl wrote:<BR> autoattack can cast during recovery time?  Didn't realize that.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes during normal CA's but not during Stream, thats why we are rooted & "dazed" but can still shoot arrows? why does that sound like it shouldn't be happening anyways ? :smileytongue:  </P> <P>But i like the suggestion of letting auto atttack firing when it should while in stream. that would help with a bit of our current DPS problem..</P>

[Ibixat]

I think my vote is just for let stream die it's final death, forget about working it to be good at 70, i'ts 15 levels old, take it off the hotbar and remember how badass it was at 55, at 70 it's just not worth the time anymore.<div></div>

[Teksun]

I guess I agree that a 1.5 sec shot on a 9 sec bow would be overpowering, so why not just make it a haste? What is our max haste now? 100%? (with buffs from others) let this add to that for 30 seconds. 100% haste up to 200%. That would be just over 1 second with a 4.5 delay and 2.25 seconds with the 9 delay. Just a thought...<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div></div>Its such a simple thing to fix that its so stupid.. Allow auto attack to work in conjunction with SoA. The average CA dps is anywhere from 500-800.SoA already does 500-750 damage per shot (at 450 dps).. this would not leave this ability overpowering.<p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:59 AM</span>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR>I guess I agree that a 1.5 sec shot on a 9 sec bow would be overpowering, so why not just make it a haste? What is our max haste now? 100%? (with buffs from others) let this add to that for 30 seconds. 100% haste up to 200%. That would be just over 1 second with a 4.5 delay and 2.25 seconds with the 9 delay. Just a thought...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Haste caps at 100%, which is why I suggested making it a 100% Haste/100% DPS, +25% Ranged Crit ability for 30 seconds instead, which would stifle and root you, thus allowing you to only auto-attack.

[Ibixat]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Teksun wrote:I guess I agree that a 1.5 sec shot on a 9 sec bow would be overpowering, so why not just make it a haste? What is our max haste now? 100%? (with buffs from others) let this add to that for 30 seconds. 100% haste up to 200%. That would be just over 1 second with a 4.5 delay and 2.25 seconds with the 9 delay. Just a thought... <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Haste caps at 100%, which is why I suggested making it a 100% Haste/100% DPS, +25% Ranged Crit ability for 30 seconds instead, which would stifle and root you, thus allowing you to only auto-attack.<hr></blockquote>Wouldn't this just make it a different variation of focus aim.  Though honestly, I think it would be better than stream as it is now.  And make it something that would actally be good forever as long as you ever have CA's not ready.</div>

[Kiluvi]

A better version of Stream of Arrows would simply be to remove the damage component of the combat art entirely, and bring auto attack down to a 1.5 second delay.

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kiluvian wrote:A better version of Stream of Arrows would simply be to remove the damage component of the combat art entirely, and bring auto attack down to a 1.5 second delay.<hr></blockquote>As was mentioned before, this would really make those 9 second delay high damage bows overly powerful... </div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Kiluvian wrote:A better version of Stream of Arrows would simply be to remove the damage component of the combat art entirely, and bring auto attack down to a 1.5 second delay.<hr></blockquote>As was mentioned before, this would really make those 9 second delay high damage bows overly powerful... </div><hr></blockquote>Yea.. 9 sec delay bows have the potential to hit at like 6k.. 6k max hit, at 1.5 seconds.. =4.5k dps.. And thats pretty unfair to those who use shortbows.</div>

[Memran]

<P>Well what about making it a 500% haste buff that also adds hate. That way ots not a fixed time per shot, and so long delay bows will not be over powered but scaled while buff is on.</P>

[Judist]

<P>mmm, 500% haste with Silverpine... mmmm.....</P> <P>Do one raid zone, harvest arrows for a week. Lol!</P>

[Asismii]

i cant wait till i can get my hands on SoA master, i love the skill, it is great for all my little ranger tricks.. but keeping it until canceled would be cool.. maybe a bit too powerful though.. except like someone said, until you run out of arrows =-D <div></div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asismii wrote:<BR>i cant wait till i can get my hands on SoA master, i love the skill, it is great for all my little ranger tricks.. but keeping it until canceled would be cool.. maybe a bit too powerful though.. except like someone said, until you run out of arrows =-D<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Stream of Arrows is a pile of crap, and if you're using it, then you don't understand game mechanics enough to realize that you're losing DPS by using it.

[Tarryn]

<P>Personally, I'd like to just see them change the recast on it to about 20 minutes or so and boost the damage of the art commensurate with the new recast.  Like say somewhere more than double.  Make the damage high enough to really make it worth using.</P> <P>I'd love to see it be a bit like my old Trueshot from EQ1.  Let us out-DPS <EM>everyone</EM> again--but only once or twice an hour.</P> <P>That would be a way to make the ability--and the ranger--much more situationally useful, without being overpowered.</P> <P>"Stream of Arrows.  When you absolutely, positively have to kill every mob in the room--accept no substitutes."  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kiluvi]

<blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Kiluvian wrote:A better version of Stream of Arrows would simply be to remove the damage component of the combat art entirely, and bring auto attack down to a 1.5 second delay.<hr></blockquote>As was mentioned before, this would really make those 9 second delay high damage bows overly powerful... </div><hr></blockquote>Yea.. 9 sec delay bows have the potential to hit at like 6k.. 6k max hit, at 1.5 seconds.. =4.5k dps.. And thats pretty unfair to those who use shortbows.</div><hr></blockquote>The spell increases hate gain for a reason. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiluvian wrote:<BR><BR><BR>The spell increases hate gain for a reason. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Combine with a troubador, and a ranger is at 82% hate-reduction.  So, you're gaining an extra 12% hate, which means you have 70% hate-reduction, thus you still aren't doing too much difference.  Heck even without a troubador, you've got roughly 30% hate reduction, which should be more than enough considering.

[Kiluvi]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Kiluvian wrote:<BR><BR><BR>The spell increases hate gain for a reason. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Combine with a troubador, and a ranger is at 82% hate-reduction.  So, you're gaining an extra 12% hate, which means you have 70% hate-reduction, thus you still aren't doing too much difference.  Heck even without a troubador, you've got roughly 30% hate reduction, which should be more than enough considering.<hr></blockquote>Hate reduction doesn't stack that way... and do you honestly think 4.5k DPS would not pull agro?

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiluvian wrote:<BR><BR>Hate reduction doesn't stack that way... and do you honestly think 4.5k DPS would not pull agro?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How do you know that hate reduction doesn't stack that way?  Anyway, against a properly setup MT, you could probably get away with around 2.5k dps if you had enough aggro reduction, and he had enough hate increases and was doing enough DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Plus, wouldn't you want there to be some skill required to be a Ranger?  I mean, just hitting Stream every now and then and getting uber DPS, hooray!  That's so like stupidly easy that any [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] could do it.  Wait a second, that sounds like T6.</P>

[Pins]

<P>I've got it.  The fix to Stream of Arrows.</P> <P> </P> <P>Make the damage scale based on the Damage Rating of your Bow.</P>

[Kiluvi]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Kiluvian wrote:<BR><BR>Hate reduction doesn't stack that way... and do you honestly think 4.5k DPS would not pull agro?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>How do you know that hate reduction doesn't stack that way?  Anyway, against a properly setup MT, you could probably get away with around 2.5k dps if you had enough aggro reduction, and he had enough hate increases and was doing enough DPS.</P><P> </P><P>Plus, wouldn't you want there to be some skill required to be a Ranger?  I mean, just hitting Stream every now and then and getting uber DPS, hooray!  That's so like stupidly easy that any [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] could do it.  Wait a second, that sounds like T6.</P><hr></blockquote>Now I agree with everything you said there. And to answer your question: Yes, I would like there to be skill involved other than hitting Stream of Arrows every now and then. My point was that it wouldn't be overpowered because you either use it or you don't, and if you don't cancel it at the right time you would peel and die. And you can't just start it back up and cancel it again immediatly either. If you didn't use it right, you'd screw yourself.Also, the reason I know hate reduction doesn't stack that way is because if it did, it would be possible to get negative hate everytime you did damage. It calculates hate using each individual spell, starting with hate increases and then hate decreases.I was just making suggestions, right or wrong - it was a good idea, imho. Its definatly debatable, which is probably why it isn't in-game. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kiluvi]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<P>I've got it.  The fix to Stream of Arrows.</P><P> </P><P>Make the damage scale based on the Damage Rating of your Bow.</P><hr></blockquote>brilliant!