And so it Begins?

[Balerius]

<DIV>So I've been vocal about the imbalance between ranger and asassin dps as it is manifested in high-end raids.  And I've pointed out that the imbalance was causing rangers to become undesireable in high-end guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And some of you have (understandably enough) posted that you didn't believe ranger dps was broken because (1) you only soloed/grouped and in those contexts you thought your dps was fine and/or (2) in your (generally "more casual") raiding experience, you finished at or near the top of the dps charts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My response was that what is evident now at the high-end game (raids and guilds) would inevitably make its way into the more casual side of the game (raids and groups) as players' levels/spells/AAs rose throughout the game and better understanding of raid mechanics became more widespread.  Some of you were/are skeptical.  OK.  So I offer this, taken from my server's 60-69 gamechannel.  I normally don't monitor this channel and I do not know the person (a warden from a guild I've never heard of) making the call or anything else about the announcement.  I just offer it as I saw it (repeated several other times btw).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Balerius/relic.png"></DIV>

[pseudocide]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <DIV>So I've been vocal about the imbalance between ranger and asassin dps as it is manifested in high-end raids.  And I've pointed out that the imbalance was causing rangers to become undesireable in high-end guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And some of you have (understandably enough) posted that you didn't believe ranger dps was broken because (1) you only soloed/grouped and in those contexts you thought your dps was fine and/or (2) in your (generally "more casual") raiding experience, you finished at or near the top of the dps charts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My response was that what is evident now at the high-end game (raids and guilds) would inevitably make its way into the more casual side of the game (raids and groups) as players' levels/spells/AAs rose throughout the game and better understanding of raid mechanics became more widespread.  Some of you were/are skeptical.  OK.  So I offer this, taken from my server's 60-69 gamechannel.  I normally don't monitor this channel and I do not know the person (a warden from a guild I've never heard of) making the call or anything else about the announcement.  I just offer it as I saw it (repeated several other times btw).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Balerius/relic.png"></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>chances are the group allready had a ranger and didnt know enough about the class to realize that we stack very well with each other<BR>

[Jayad]

<P>Or several Rangers.. since there are quite a few at 60+ <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I have, however, had a lot of guilds not want them in recruitment.</P>

[LoreLady]

thats not the context it was put in, he was asking for dps.. In a raid t1 dps is t1 dps, doesnt matter if you have a ranger/assassin/wizard (In the pickup raid case) what we have said time and time again, is once you hit the top and max everything out theres a large diffrence between a good ranger/assassin and wizard.

[Sirlutt]

oh my god you guys are amazing.I am willing to bet he already had a billion rangers want to go .. a raid benefits alot from non ranger DPS aswell and they bring some other things they need.  I bet you he already had 2 or 3 rangers.Stop worrying about your DPS and ask for utility you idiots.. i'm wanted on raids now, not because i do amazing DPS, i'm about on par with everyone else, but because i have hate transfer.. i am a good addition to the second tank group .. brigands debuff .. swashy's the same.. dirges/troubs have awesome buffs..the problem is rangers have nothing other than DPs to bring to a raid .. its not that your DPs sucks.. its that you can get the same DPS from another class, AND extra stuff.Rangers need group buffs, or something similar, plain and simple.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:oh my god you guys are amazing.I am willing to bet he already had a billion rangers want to go .. a raid benefits alot from non ranger DPS aswell and they bring some other things they need.  I bet you he already had 2 or 3 rangers.Stop worrying about your DPS and ask for utility you idiots.. i'm wanted on raids now, not because i do amazing DPS, i'm about on par with everyone else, but because i have hate transfer.. i am a good addition to the second tank group .. brigands debuff .. swashy's the same.. dirges/troubs have awesome buffs..the problem is rangers have nothing other than DPs to bring to a raid .. its not that your DPs sucks.. its that you can get the same DPS from another class, AND extra stuff.Rangers need group buffs, or something similar, plain and simple.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Cept WE ARE NOT THAT TYPE OF CLASS. We are a damage class, thats what I signed up for thats what I expect.  Otherwise im rerolling to something else.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:oh my god you guys are amazing.I am willing to bet he already had a billion rangers want to go .. a raid benefits alot from non ranger DPS aswell and they bring some other things they need.  I bet you he already had 2 or 3 rangers.Stop worrying about your DPS and ask for utility you idiots.. i'm wanted on raids now, not because i do amazing DPS, i'm about on par with everyone else, but because i have hate transfer.. i am a good addition to the second tank group .. brigands debuff .. swashy's the same.. dirges/troubs have awesome buffs..the problem is rangers have nothing other than DPs to bring to a raid .. its not that your DPs sucks.. its that you can get the same DPS from another class, AND extra stuff.Rangers need group buffs, or something similar, plain and simple.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Cept WE ARE NOT THAT TYPE OF CLASS. We are a damage class, thats what I signed up for thats what I expect.  Otherwise im rerolling to something else.</div><hr></blockquote>and you DO do damage.well.. you might not.. but hundreds of other rangers do ..  we have 2 rangers, 2 assassins .. and we are all pretty much even , with me being the one lagging behind because of my level .. yeah I can go all out and top the parse.. but not all the time.. Rangers do fine DPS, you need utility, raid/group utility.  You need to let go of the time when raiding guilds added 5 rangers to their roster because of the insane damage.  The problem your facing is we can get 800-1500 DPS from a number fo classes, including rangers... but the rest of the classes bring something else.. Rangers dont.  thats what you need to campaign on getting fixed.. not posting rediculous amounts of made up numbers and trying to twist them into a nerf for other classes.  you guys arent wizards ya know <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Work on adding stuff to your class, not taking from someone elses.</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:oh my god you guys are amazing.I am willing to bet he already had a billion rangers want to go .. a raid benefits alot from non ranger DPS aswell and they bring some other things they need.  I bet you he already had 2 or 3 rangers.Stop worrying about your DPS and ask for utility you idiots.. i'm wanted on raids now, not because i do amazing DPS, i'm about on par with everyone else, but because i have hate transfer.. i am a good addition to the second tank group .. brigands debuff .. swashy's the same.. dirges/troubs have awesome buffs..the problem is rangers have nothing other than DPs to bring to a raid .. its not that your DPs sucks.. its that you can get the same DPS from another class, AND extra stuff.Rangers need group buffs, or something similar, plain and simple.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Cept WE ARE NOT THAT TYPE OF CLASS. We are a damage class, thats what I signed up for thats what I expect.  Otherwise im rerolling to something else.</div><hr></blockquote>and you DO do damage.well.. you might not.. but hundreds of other rangers do ..  we have 2 rangers, 2 assassins .. and we are all pretty much even , with me being the one lagging behind because of my level .. yeah I can go all out and top the parse.. but not all the time.. Rangers do fine DPS, you need utility, raid/group utility.  You need to let go of the time when raiding guilds added 5 rangers to their roster because of the insane damage.  The problem your facing is we can get 800-1500 DPS from a number fo classes, including rangers... but the rest of the classes bring something else.. Rangers dont.  thats what you need to campaign on getting fixed.. not posting rediculous amounts of made up numbers and trying to twist them into a nerf for other classes.  you guys arent wizards ya know <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Work on adding stuff to your class, not taking from someone elses.</div><hr></blockquote>Two of us have proven there is a problem in dps in two diffrent charts, you claim you are lagginb behind in level I am not. I am a constant raider, I see every day the raid dps of each class my guild puts out. And the information I have given is not more parsing.Ok - you say that rangers need utility.. Ok, but keep in mind it says your an assassin your a pred subclass we are a pred subclass. All subclasses do roughly the same thing, just in diffrent ways. What you are saying by the way is asking for utility for your own class and asking for a dps nerf by calling this out for rangers. And a assassin who does 800-1500 dps doesnt know how to play there class well. And your last comment frusterates me because you have assassin on your tag, you do the same damage as wizards. Yet you bash rangers for wanting to be back onpar with t1 dps.And dont say im posting made up numbers. For one thats not this thread, for two I have taken each CA at 428 str and taken the max damage. Unless sony is lieing to me ofcorse.</div>

[Serventof Wrath]

I don't need/want utility.  I'm not invited to groups/raids for my ability ot open chests or provide tracking/pathfinding.  I am a DPS class which means I'm supposed to help kill stuff really fast.   You can say what you want about the OP's screen shot from his chat window but how do you explain the current thread in the Combat Discussion part of these forums?  Its the one that asks what is the most unneeded class on a raid and guess what??  Hands down we are the 2nd most unneeded class only beaten out by SKs.   I'm not gonna quit my ranger because of this so don't ask if you can have my stuff.  But honestly read those posts and those opinions and then tell me we are fine.

[TofuPatty]

<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:Stop worrying about your DPS and ask for utility you idiots.. i'm wanted on raids now, not because i do amazing DPS, i'm about on par with everyone else, but because i have hate transfer.. i am a good addition to the second tank group .. brigands debuff .. swashy's the same.. dirges/troubs have awesome buffs..<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry, but if as an assassin you're wanted on raids not for your DPS but for your 'utility,' then you can't possibly be playing an assassin very well.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>TofuPatty wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:Stop worrying about your DPS and ask for utility you idiots.. i'm wanted on raids now, not because i do amazing DPS, i'm about on par with everyone else, but because i have hate transfer.. i am a good addition to the second tank group .. brigands debuff .. swashy's the same.. dirges/troubs have awesome buffs..<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry, but if as an assassin you're wanted on raids not for your DPS but for your 'utility,' then you can't possibly be playing an assassin very well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I dont want this assassin near my guild for several reasons, one being the dps he has stated, two being that hes brought in for raids for utility. Three, whatever you say about rangers you also say about assassins were preds. Even though the subclass is taken out of the game, we still do the same things - in theroy.</div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>oh my god you guys are amazing.<BR><BR>I am willing to bet he already had a billion rangers want to go .. a raid benefits alot from non ranger DPS aswell and they bring some other things they need.  I bet you he already had 2 or 3 rangers.<BR><BR>Stop worrying about your DPS and ask for utility you idiots.. i'm wanted on raids now, not because i do amazing DPS, i'm about on par with everyone else, but because i have hate transfer.. i am a good addition to the second tank group .. brigands debuff .. swashy's the same.. dirges/troubs have awesome buffs..<BR><BR>the problem is rangers have nothing other than DPs to bring to a raid .. its not that your DPs sucks.. its that you can get the same DPS from another class, AND extra stuff.<BR><BR>Rangers need group buffs, or something similar, plain and simple.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The guy was looking for dps, not utility (there were a few other announcements I didn't screenshot).</P> <P>This was a pickup relic raid.  They happen all the time on my server.  I don't join pickup raids so I have little knowledge of them.  But it was a <EM><STRONG>relic</STRONG> </EM>raid and they wanted one more dps.  Maybe they already had one or more rangers, but I don't see why it would matter to this person whether the added dps was a ranger or any other scout class, since chain is chain as far as relic drops go.  All I know is that they wanted dps and and further specified that they would take any cloth dps and any scout except a ranger.</P>

[damahra]

sirlutt,  you absolutely amaze me, for someone who has played a ranger  previously as you claim, to have absolutely no grasp of the actual point.   I (personally) don't want utility, that's right, I DON'T WANT utility, I want to be able to do damage, period, we are a dps class, yet we are consistently behind, and in some cases,  grossly behind, other dps classes.  as far as the idiot comment goes, take a look  in the mirror, then come back and post when you actually have a clue.

[Echgar]

I suggest everyone refrain from making personal attacks, insults, namecalling, and general baiting as they tend to be the stuff of locked threads (<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>Forum Rules of Conduct</a>).  Everyone is entitled to an opinion provided it is constructive.  You may choose to disagree, but the best tact is to disagree and move on to other topics after making your point.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Echgar wrote:I suggest everyone refrain from making personal attacks, insults, namecalling, and general baiting as they tend to be the stuff of locked threads (<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target="_blank">Forum Rules of Conduct</a>).  Everyone is entitled to an opinion provided it is constructive.  You may choose to disagree, but the best tact is to disagree and move on to other topics after making your point.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I really wish I had the ability to lock some people out of these fourms for good.</div>

[Jayad]

There is already a scout class with very good dps and some utility - they're called rogues.

[Dirtgirl]

<FONT color=#ffcc66> ^-----  what he said.</FONT>

[schla]

<div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div>There is already a scout class with very good dps and some utility - they're called rogues.<hr></blockquote>Exactly!!!For a succesful raid you need to cover all the utillity/heals and debuffs u can and then stack up with dps. As far as I know theres it not a ward/heal/buff/debuff/augmentation whatever in game that is not covered by one class or another...IF rangers were changed to a utility class all we would be doing was adding to something that was allready covered. And probably covered better by someone else...How would that make us more useful?Gimme back me dps ya rascals!!!!!</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV>and you DO do damage.<BR><BR>well.. you might not.. but hundreds of other rangers do ..  we have 2 rangers, 2 assassins .. and we are all pretty much even ,</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then your assasins need to Learn to play.</P> <P> </P> <P>And Rangers don't need or want utility, we're a pure DPS class and wish to stay that way. </P>

[110euph]

<DIV>Y'all had me so worried that I had wasted my time playing my ranger that I started asking around.  Now granted, my ranger is only 68, but I think he does good damage for a newb.  But anyway, I asked the top ranger on my server, in the top guild on my server, which raids 6 nights a week.  Asked him if I was wasting my time playing ranger, asked him about AA lines, all that.  He said he parses consistantly in the top 4 every raid.  Along with another ranger in his guild.  (BTW, the guild is Drow.)  He said the only reason people, such as non rangers, belive rangers suck is...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV align=center><FONT color=#ff3333 size=6>BECAUSE WE TELL THEM WE SUCK</FONT>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if we stop telling them that we suck (because we don't) maybe they'll stop thinking we do.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it's an idea.</DIV>

[Merkad]

Sorry, I don't buy that. I don't think Rangers are completely useless, just not worth having over another DPS class. In their absence, then a Ranger would be ok. but never a first choice (unless maybe the corsolander) or even 4th choice imo.Say what you want, but I played a Ranger during EQLive, and now here too, people realize quickly enough when someone is of lesser worth in their respective territory. Parsers tell the story clearly enough. I will believe that it does involve more skill to maximize DPS now, but I do not believe the vast majority of Rangers are clueless, especially at the spectrum we are talking about: raiding.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.Edited to correct a phrasing.<p>Message Edited by Merkades on <span class=date_text>07-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 PM</span>

[Salor Ravensworth]

<P> </P><p>Message Edited by Salor Ravensworth on <span class=date_text>07-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 PM</span>

[Salor Ravensworth]

<P>Agree with 110euph.  You know...there are quite alot of raid instance and contested mobs that require ranged dps only.  Rangers have a few advantages most classes don't have: being able to not get hit by an AOE in those certain situations, and being able to parse the highest on those single targets in those certain situations.  I can guarantee you that we can do almost double dps with single target, ranged only raid mobs vs other classes..  Assasins are useless in that scenario with exception of the hate transfer buff.  AOE happy classes are useless in that scenario with expection of their repective buffs.</P> <P>Besides that, we can definately hold up our own in dps.  I don't have to go into an explaination with that.  Thats obivious with the top end ranger.</P> <P>I totally agree that if you say we suck, we will be labeled as "we suck".  Stop complaining or just reroll.  The rangers that are in it for the long haul don't appreciate it.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Salor Ravensworth wrote:<div></div> <p>Agree with 110euph.  You know...there are quite alot of raid instance and contested mobs that require ranged dps only.  Rangers have a few advantages most classes don't have: being able to not get hit by an AOE in those certain situations, and being able to parse the highest on those single targets in those certain situations.  I can guarantee you that we can do almost double dps with single target, ranged only raid mobs vs other classes..  Assasins are useless in that scenario with exception of the hate transfer buff.  AOE happy classes are useless in that scenario with expection of their repective buffs. <font color="#996600">All fights that ive been in you can joust, and assassins still do quite abit of damage.. Assassins can still do significant damage at a range, however its a diffrent way of doing it (3 dots, 4 ranged abilities)</font></p> <p>Besides that, we can definately hold up our own in dps.  I don't have to go into an explaination with that.  Thats obivious with the top end ranger.<font color="#996600">We can still hold our own in dps, however.. That dps is lacking, - as I have proven in another thread by about 15%-30%. That doesnt mean rangers dont do dps as it is.. It just isent what it should be.</font></p> <p>I totally agree that if you say we suck, we will be labeled as "we suck".  Stop complaining or just reroll.  The rangers that are in it for the long haul don't appreciate it.<font color="#996600">I am in it for the long haul, always have been. Only diffrence is, i'll always go a step beyond to prove my point. And show people why I say what I say.</font></p><hr></blockquote>I</div>

[Salor Ravensworth]

I agree with the jousting...my point was ranged only fights which again, there are quite a few out there.

[LoreLady]

<blockquote><hr>Salor Ravensworth wrote:<div></div>I agree with the jousting...my point was ranged only fights which again, there are quite a few out there.<hr></blockquote>Where? Ive been through most of hos, cleared out labs, having problems on priest in lyceum- otherwise have it cleared, Gor the [Removed for Content] dragon is down. And, I have been on one ranged fight only and even that can be jousted (in hos). (note, I dont have the adventure pack, if theres some in there.. Then its past my knowledge)<div></div>

[Drainlo]

<DIV> <P>im probly quoting wrong, first time posting O.o</P> <P>"Agree with 110euph.  You know...there are quite alot of raid instance and contested mobs that require ranged dps only.  Rangers have a few advantages most classes don't have: being able to not get hit by an AOE in those certain situations, and being able to parse the highest on those single targets in those certain situations.  I can guarantee you that we can do almost double dps with single target, ranged only raid mobs vs other classes..  Assasins are useless in that scenario with exception of the hate transfer buff.  AOE happy classes are useless in that scenario with expection of their repective buffs.</P> <P>Besides that, we can definately hold up our own in dps.  I don't have to go into an explaination with that.  Thats obivious with the top end ranger.</P> <P>I totally agree that if you say we suck, we will be labeled as "we suck".  Stop complaining or just reroll.  The rangers that are in it for the long haul don't appreciate it.</P> <P></P> <DIV>Salor Ravensworth<BR>70 Ranger/70 Woodworker<BR>The Bekwen Alliance<BR>AB</DIV>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>I'm in it for the long haul, playing a ranger is fun.  But some of that fun disappears when your dps can be matched and/or beaten by so many other classes that can do more than just dps.</P> <P> And to the raiding rangers that say they get top on parser, im so jealous......wish i could raid with slackers too :/</P> <P> </P>

[Pinfall1]

<P>Do you really think that a raid would pick a class based on said class doing 200 or more dps than a class that does dps AND adds something to the raid besides dps?  What the ranger class needs is something other than a DPS buff.  </P> <P>If you put in this thread the cost of achieving top DPS is far beyond other classes and that isnt right, I would agree with you but you didnt.  You complain that the DPS is the problem.  I say it isn't.  If the ranger class had something specific to them that would help the raid, your raid group finding problems would be over.... unless you were an idiot then well, you would have other problems.</P> <P> </P> <P>Post all the graphs, charts, etc etc.  DPS isnt the problem.</P>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salor Ravensworth wrote:<BR> <P> You know...there are quite alot of raid instance and contested mobs that require ranged dps only.  Rangers have a few advantages most classes don't have: being able to not get hit by an AOE in those certain situations, and being able to parse the highest on those single targets in those certain situations<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Their are 0 Fights in the game that "Require" ranged dps "only". And if a ranger is playing only from range he will do half as much damage as an assasin instead of 80%.

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinfall1 wrote:<BR> <P>Do you really think that a raid would pick a class based on said class doing 200 or more dps than a class that does dps AND adds something to the raid besides dps?  What the ranger class needs is something other than a DPS buff.  </P> <P>If you put in this thread the cost of achieving top DPS is far beyond other classes and that isnt right, I would agree with you but you didnt.  You complain that the DPS is the problem.  I say it isn't.  If the ranger class had something specific to them that would help the raid, your raid group finding problems would be over.... unless you were an idiot then well, you would have other problems.</P> <P> </P> <P>Post all the graphs, charts, etc etc.  DPS isnt the problem.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Following your logic, a raid guild wouldn't want any assassins in its guild because they bring almost no utility to a raid and only do dps.  And that isn't the reality.</P> <P>The classes that bring both dps and utility to raids are called rogues.  That's the entire reason these classes exist.  There is <STRONG><EM>zero</EM></STRONG> chance that SoE would give any utility to rangers that would be sufficiently worthwhile to offset the inferiority of ranger dps.  Doing so would only replace rangers as a "useless raid class" with rogues.</P> <P>Rangers, as predators, are meant to do one thing... dps.  It's part of the original game design and just as valid today.  One of the predator class can currently meet this design goal well...the Assassins.  One cannot...the Rangers.  Accordingly, rangers need fixed.  It's as simple as that.</P>

[Drainlo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinfall1 wrote:<BR> <P>Do you really think that a raid would pick a class based on said class doing 200 or more dps than a class that does dps AND adds something to the raid besides dps?  What the ranger class needs is something other than a DPS buff.  </P> <P>If you put in this thread the cost of achieving top DPS is far beyond other classes and that isnt right, I would agree with you but you didnt.  You complain that the DPS is the problem.  I say it isn't.  If the ranger class had something specific to them that would help the raid, your raid group finding problems would be over.... unless you were an idiot then well, you would have other problems.</P> <P> </P> <P>Post all the graphs, charts, etc etc.  DPS isnt the problem.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you are such a genius!!!! give us ranger players something other "than a dps buff" ?  its not like we are a dps class. better tanking ability is what i really hope for!! that would be so awesome!! we all know us rangers wanna tank !!or maybe some nice debuffs? cuz we are really pirates at heart.... or how bout some really good group buffs? i have song envy myself....sweet...... be like the other classes.....</P> <P>/sarcasm off</P> <P> </P>

[Dalaimoc]

<P>The problems name is not Ranger, or Assassin, or any other class out there. The problems name is peoples name. There are too many idiots out there, setting up groups, or piping in their 2 cent, when a group is set up.</P> <P>Yes, i know, that there is an optimal setup which makes certain areas and encounters smoother and faster. However, the point in a game is to have fun. Personally i have fun with laid back people, who know their class and the game mechanics, who are fun to chat with and with whom i can share a good laugh.</P> <P>If the price i have to pay for this, is to not have the optimal setup, meaning, each encounter takes 3 seconds longer to kill, the MT ends up with 30% health on the final boss instead of 60%, or we need 5 tries instead of 1 or 2 to master a difficult mob, i will gladly pay it. I don't care, if there is an assassin or a ranger or a swashy in the group. I happily kick an idiot ubah-dps assassin for a fun and nice Mystic if i have to, because in the end, it doesn't matter if the whole group/raid took an hour longer than expected, but it matters alot, that i had a good time with the people in it. Period.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Merkad]

@Dalaimoc - So what do you do when you have too many people who show up, and *simultaneously* you happen to enjoy their presence? I play EQ2 almost 100% because I like my guild. The game is ok, but only ok.Tonight (well Sunday), we had 28 people show up for Deathtoll. Obviously, some people had to sit out. I was not one of them this time, but occasionally I do get asked to/volunteer. Fortunately, my guild tries to use a rotation so we do not always have the same folks sitting out, with the exception of the most important classes, at least til they hit the necassary amounts.It took us 3:27 mins to kill Tarinax, surely not the fastest. The simple reason is the he is not the hardest, so we can be a little lax about who we take to clear Deathtoll. When we try Chel'drak, I am betting we will optimize the raid as much as we can for success, because we are a raid guild, and everyone in it will contribute to that end. Maybe I won't get to try the first time or three, maybe I will, eventually I am sure I will. Either way, I will do what is best for their chances.In case I did not make it apparent, with the extended dialog, I am simply saying alot of raids don't matter once you have enough overall strength, but newer/tougher content (relative to your guilds strength) do. And, even if I choose to go raid Darathar with my guild, there is no way a brigand or other such class should *ever* (let me repeat *ever*) outdamage a class more offensively oriented and with less utilty.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

[Dalaimoc]

<P> </P> <P>It is perfectly ok, to have a rotation on raids, when too many people show up. Furthermore, when you raid a certain area for the first time, of course it is desirable to do it in the most efficient setup. Just to get the grip on it and to workout strategies with different classes, however i would despise it, if certain classes would be left out, just because they are not balanced well atm.</P> <P>Every single person, who can work in a team and knows his class can contribute something. Be it to a raid or to a group.</P> <P>My comment was primarily targeted and PUGs, guild-environment is a bit different. For myself i can say, that i would never stay in a guild, that excludes certain classes, because they are poorly balanced and may not be top-of-pops.</P> <P>I cannot judge the current state of the ranger, since i am not playing one. From what i read on the parses and comments from alot of people, they miss some DPS compared to assassins as their dark counterpart and/or some general utility to bring to a group/raid in the form of special group/raid buffs- debuffs or whatever.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dalaimoc wrote: <p>It is perfectly ok, to have a rotation on raids, when too many people show up. Furthermore, when you raid a certain area for the first time, of course it is desirable to do it in the most efficient setup. Just to get the grip on it and to workout strategies with different classes, however i would despise it, if certain classes would be left out, just because they are not balanced well atm.</p> <p>Every single person, who can work in a team and knows his class can contribute something. Be it to a raid or to a group.</p> <p>My comment was primarily targeted and PUGs, guild-environment is a bit different. For myself i can say, that i would never stay in a guild, that excludes certain classes, because they are poorly balanced and may not be top-of-pops.</p> <p>I cannot judge the current state of the ranger, since i am not playing one. From what i read on the parses and comments from alot of people, they miss some DPS compared to assassins as their dark counterpart and/or some general utility to bring to a group/raid in the form of special group/raid buffs- debuffs or whatever.</p><hr></blockquote>Untill you see everyone fully mastered, and well fabled.. Your going to see rangers higher up alot of the time, and alot of people think its ok to be dancing with the t2 dps all the time. I do 1100-1400 dps, most rangers I know do 700-1100.. And my guild has picked up friends etc for raids that people want/need.. And I have seen rangers/wizards/necros (well any class that does dps) do  300 dps and stay there, and not even showing up on the parse..Now, am I saying that I am underpowered because I tend to outdamage the t2 dps in our guild by about 50 dps.. Yes I am because I turn around and see the assassin easilly hit 1800 dps.. And all my t7 abilities are mastered out (as far as damage arts go, having abit of problems finding cloak) -and I am better geared than my assassin.. He has taken abunch downtime in the guild and lacks on the dkp lately.. I have better weapons, better bow.. And the same amount of masters..I would also like to mention that on easy raids some of us like to swap toons for fun.. Its funny watching someone else pull out 800 dps on my toon, and me pulling out 1500 dps on an assassin.. Im not saying im a better player than him, its just its easier for an assassin to do dps.. And not many people can do the rangers dance well with a wurmdestroyer.</div>

[Tseri]

<DIV>Corsolander's a ranged fight.  His DS makes it pointless to be anything but a ranged fight.  Uncaged Alzid is mostly ranged, but can be jousted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On most fights I parse in the top 4, plenty of times I'm second on the parse under the assassin.  Mind you I'm second by a very wide margin as he's hitting anywhere from 1200-1500 with spikes up over 2k when all his skills are up.  Our <STRONG>Brigand</STRONG> recently respec'd and now he's beating me out on the parse as well.  Yup, rogue class, huge utility...beating out the Ranger, when I bring nothing but DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can I have my damage back please?</DIV>

[Pinfall1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinfall1 wrote:<BR> <P>Do you really think that a raid would pick a class based on said class doing 200 or more dps than a class that does dps AND adds something to the raid besides dps?  What the ranger class needs is something other than a DPS buff.  </P> <P>If you put in this thread the cost of achieving top DPS is far beyond other classes and that isnt right, I would agree with you but you didnt.  You complain that the DPS is the problem.  I say it isn't.  If the ranger class had something specific to them that would help the raid, your raid group finding problems would be over.... unless you were an idiot then well, you would have other problems.</P> <P> </P> <P>Post all the graphs, charts, etc etc.  DPS isnt the problem.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Following your logic, a raid guild wouldn't want any assassins in its guild because they bring almost no utility to a raid and only do dps.  And that isn't the reality.</P> <P>The classes that bring both dps and utility to raids are called rogues.  That's the entire reason these classes exist.  There is <STRONG><EM>zero</EM></STRONG> chance that SoE would give any utility to rangers that would be sufficiently worthwhile to offset the inferiority of ranger dps.  Doing so would only replace rangers as a "useless raid class" with rogues.</P> <P>Rangers, as predators, are meant to do one thing... dps.  It's part of the original game design and just as valid today.  One of the predator class can currently meet this design goal well...the Assassins.  One cannot...the Rangers.  Accordingly, rangers need fixed.  It's as simple as that.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>The point is, the small amount of DPS difference there is isn't going to keep you out of any raid.  A better niche to ask for would be something unique to add to a raid much like other classes get.  Take a dirge for instance.... they do DPS, pretty darn good DPS from what I have seen but they add the DPS buff to the raid which makes them desirable.<BR></P>

[Pinfall1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drainlock wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinfall1 wrote:<BR> <P>Do you really think that a raid would pick a class based on said class doing 200 or more dps than a class that does dps AND adds something to the raid besides dps?  What the ranger class needs is something other than a DPS buff.  </P> <P>If you put in this thread the cost of achieving top DPS is far beyond other classes and that isnt right, I would agree with you but you didnt.  You complain that the DPS is the problem.  I say it isn't.  If the ranger class had something specific to them that would help the raid, your raid group finding problems would be over.... unless you were an idiot then well, you would have other problems.</P> <P> </P> <P>Post all the graphs, charts, etc etc.  DPS isnt the problem.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you are such a genius!!!! give us ranger players something other "than a dps buff" ?  its not like we are a dps class. better tanking ability is what i really hope for!! that would be so awesome!! we all know us rangers wanna tank !!or maybe some nice debuffs? cuz we are really pirates at heart.... or how bout some really good group buffs? i have song envy myself....sweet...... be like the other classes.....</P> <P>/sarcasm off</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Learn to comprehend before attempting sarcasm towards what I post.  </P> <P>Here, I will help you... You missed the word "specific" in my post.  Rangers don't need the same buff another class gives because that would make them not wanted on a raid.<BR></P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinfall1 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinfall1 wrote:<BR> <P>Do you really think that a raid would pick a class based on said class doing 200 or more dps than a class that does dps AND adds something to the raid besides dps?  What the ranger class needs is something other than a DPS buff. </P> <P>If you put in this thread the cost of achieving top DPS is far beyond other classes and that isnt right, I would agree with you but you didnt.  You complain that the DPS is the problem.  I say it isn't.  If the ranger class had something specific to them that would help the raid, your raid group finding problems would be over.... unless you were an idiot then well, you would have other problems.</P> <P> </P> <P>Post all the graphs, charts, etc etc.  DPS isnt the problem.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Following your logic, a raid guild wouldn't want any assassins in its guild because they bring almost no utility to a raid and only do dps.  And that isn't the reality.</P> <P>The classes that bring both dps and utility to raids are called rogues.  That's the entire reason these classes exist.  There is <STRONG><EM>zero</EM></STRONG> chance that SoE would give any utility to rangers that would be sufficiently worthwhile to offset the inferiority of ranger dps.  Doing so would only replace rangers as a "useless raid class" with rogues.</P> <P>Rangers, as predators, are meant to do one thing... dps.  It's part of the original game design and just as valid today.  One of the predator class can currently meet this design goal well...the Assassins.  One cannot...the Rangers.  Accordingly, rangers need fixed.  It's as simple as that.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P><STRONG>The point is, the small amount of DPS difference there is isn't going to keep you out of any raid.</STRONG>  A better niche to ask for would be something unique to add to a raid much like other classes get.  Take a dirge for instance.... they do DPS, pretty darn good DPS from what I have seen but they add the DPS buff to the raid which makes them desirable.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I love playing my ranger.   I'm not gonna quit playing or betray.  But take just a few minutes to go over to the Combat Discussion part of these boards and read what the game wide top raiding guilds say about rangers in thread MOST USELESS CLASS TO TAKE ON A RAID.   Don't have the time to read through all those pages then here I can sum it up for you.</P> <P><STRONG>THEY DON'T WANT OR NEED RANGERS!  THEY ALL AGREE WE NEED MORE DPS AND NOT UTILITY!  EVEN THE ASSASSINS ON THAT BOARD SAY WE NEED MORE DPS!</STRONG></P> <P>I know my class.  I play pretty well.  I'm always at or near the top of the parse when we raid.  The problem is I do 850 - 1100 dps with some fabled, some masters, and alot of adept IIIs and now that the other dps classes are getting better gear and more masters they are quickly catching me.  After talking with other rangers that are full fabled and fully mastered and from parses shown on these and other boards it looks as if I can expect to top out 1200 dps with rare spikes to 1400ish.  While the 2 assassins in my guild will be hitting 1800 with ease and the wizards capping out at over 2000.</P> <P>So with those numbers how can you tell me that once the other dps classes (and I'm including rogues, conj, zerkers, and monks along with sorcs and assassins) get up to their full potential that my raid leader is actually gonna take me over one of them.  Luckily I have a lvl 50 illusionist that i'm leveling so when my ranger is no longer welcome I still a have needed toon to raid with.</P>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinfall1 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balerius wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinfall1 wrote:<BR> <P>Do you really think that a raid would pick a class based on said class doing 200 or more dps than a class that does dps AND adds something to the raid besides dps?  What the ranger class needs is something other than a DPS buff.  </P> <P>If you put in this thread the cost of achieving top DPS is far beyond other classes and that isnt right, I would agree with you but you didnt.  You complain that the DPS is the problem.  I say it isn't.  If the ranger class had something specific to them that would help the raid, your raid group finding problems would be over.... unless you were an idiot then well, you would have other problems.</P> <P> </P> <P>Post all the graphs, charts, etc etc.  DPS isnt the problem.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Following your logic, a raid guild wouldn't want any assassins in its guild because they bring almost no utility to a raid and only do dps.  And that isn't the reality.</P> <P>The classes that bring both dps and utility to raids are called rogues.  That's the entire reason these classes exist.  There is <STRONG><EM>zero</EM></STRONG> chance that SoE would give any utility to rangers that would be sufficiently worthwhile to offset the inferiority of ranger dps.  Doing so would only replace rangers as a "useless raid class" with rogues.</P> <P>Rangers, as predators, are meant to do one thing... dps.  It's part of the original game design and just as valid today.  One of the predator class can currently meet this design goal well...the Assassins.  One cannot...the Rangers.  Accordingly, rangers need fixed.  It's as simple as that.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>The point is, the small amount of DPS difference there is isn't going to keep you out of any raid.  A better niche to ask for would be something unique to add to a raid much like other classes get.  Take a dirge for instance.... they do DPS, pretty darn good DPS from what I have seen but they add the DPS buff to the raid which makes them desirable.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Wait a minute.  <STRONG><EM>Now</EM></STRONG> you are suggesting that rangers should be asking for raid utility equivalent to that of bards???</P> <P>I feel like I'm in a conversation with someone from Bizaaro-World.  Your concept of what rangers are/should be, not to mention what the various class roles are in EQ2, makes me think we're not even playing the same game.</P> <P>We and our fellow predators, the assassins, are meant to do one thing:  dps.  The only niche we need is the dps niche.  <U>It's a perfectly viable niche as demonstrated by assassins being sought after to fill that niche in raid guilds</U>.  Our only problem is that after LU20/21, we aren't capable of filling that niche nearly as well as assassins and even some classes other than assassins can fill that niche better than we can. </P>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><p>I know my class.  I play pretty well.  I'm always at or near the top of the parse when we raid.<b> </b><font size="3"><b> The problem is I do 850 - 1100 dps with some fabled, some masters, and alot of adept III</b>s a</font>nd now that the other dps classes are getting better gear and more masters they are quickly catching me.  After talking with other rangers that are full fabled and fully mastered and from parses shown on these and other boards it looks as if I can expect to top out 1200 dps with rare spikes to 1400ish.  While the 2 assassins in my guild will be hitting 1800 with ease and the wizards capping out at over 2000.</p> <p>So with those numbers how can you tell me that once the other dps classes (and I'm including rogues, conj, zerkers, and monks along with sorcs and assassins) get up to their full potential that my raid leader is actually gonna take me over one of them.  Luckily I have a lvl 50 illusionist that i'm leveling so when my ranger is no longer welcome I still a have needed toon to raid with.</p><hr></blockquote>Just trying to help you out abit here.. Do the rangers dance to boost your own dps.. This is jumping in toe to toe witht he mob after your ranged CA's are finished and your using your old ones. And stay in melee till you see snaring shot pop up and jump in ranged again..Also if your using a short bow, learn to avoid using confounding arrow and precise shot when using focus aim - end it in snaring shot. And then jump in melee, and half way through snaring shot use either precise shot  or confounding arrow. (your only going to have one gap in 30s this way)..I maintain 1100-1400 dps all the time (with low spikes at 900ish as well).. While theres still a 400 diffrence between dps.. Its better than being embarassed at a 800 diffrence <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.. Also, make sure you get some good DW weapons in your raids rather than armor so you can maximize your own dps.(btw, im using a wurmdestroyer bow, grizz dagger, and a adamantine dragonfang for those of you who are curious)Btw balarius - you have a PM comming your way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>07-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Tseri wrote:<DIV>Corsolander's a ranged fight.  His DS makes it pointless to be anything but a ranged fight.  Uncaged Alzid is mostly ranged, but can be jousted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On most fights I parse in the top 4, plenty of times I'm second on the parse under the assassin.  Mind you I'm second by a very wide margin as he's hitting anywhere from 1200-1500 with spikes up over 2k when all his skills are up.  Our <STRONG>Brigand</STRONG> recently respec'd and now he's beating me out on the parse as well.  Yup, rogue class, huge utility...beating out the Ranger, when I bring nothing but DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can I have my damage back please?</DIV><hr></blockquote> With better gear and a good healer you can just soak his AoE on the Uncaged Alzid. Using ranged auto-attack, you can still get in some of your high hitting melee attacks against the Corsolander as well, sure you can't do full melee attack, but you can still do some. But anyway, that's a total of 1 fight where it's required to be ranged. Cruor and Chel'Drak require jousting, since there is no way you can soak up the AoE and survive. Of course so does the Divirine Matron, which puts exactly 4 encounters where ranged DPS is a bit better than melee DPS. That's 1 out of 34(4 contesteds, 4 in Lyceum, 8 in Halls of Seeing(well 9 but that NB doesn't count!), 10 in Labs, 5 in DT, 2 x2 instances, and Chel'Drak) encounters in KoS+TFD where ranged has a huge advantage over melee, with 3 where jousting is required(or Bladedance+Signet of Ethereal Form). That's 3% of encounters where ranged wins, and 9% of encounters where jousting is required. That's barely anything.

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just trying to help you out abit here.. Do the rangers dance to boost your own dps.. This is jumping in toe to toe witht he mob after your ranged CA's are finished and your using your old ones. And stay in melee till you see snaring shot pop up and jump in ranged again..<BR><BR>Also if your using a short bow, learn to avoid using confounding arrow and precise shot when using focus aim - end it in snaring shot. And then jump in melee, and half way through snaring shot use either precise shot  or confounding arrow. (your only going to have one gap in 30s this way)..<BR><BR>I maintain 1100-1400 dps all the time (with low spikes at 900ish as well).. While theres still a 400 diffrence between dps.. Its better than being embarassed at a 800 diffrence <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.. <BR><BR><STRONG>Also, make sure you get some good DW weapons in your raids rather than armor so you can maximize your own dps.<BR></STRONG><BR>(btw, im using a wurmdestroyer bow, grizz dagger, and a adamantine dragonfang for those of you who are curious)<BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thanks for the advice LoreLady I do jump back and forth between ranged and melee but my DW weapons aren't where I'd like them and I know thats one spot where I can improve.</P> <P>Currently using Wurm Destroyer bow and for DW I have A pristine imbued xeg crescent axe and Blade of the Dark Talon.</P> <P>I have seen 4 fabled DW drop on raids but every time either one of our bards or rouges have had more dkp then me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I have also been looking at different patterns for my ranged attacks I've been starting with confounding then coverfire and devit so to build extra hate on tank and get in what debuffs we have.  Any suggestions on sequences would be nice to hear.<BR></P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Serventof Wrath wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote: <div></div> <div>Just trying to help you out abit here.. Do the rangers dance to boost your own dps.. This is jumping in toe to toe witht he mob after your ranged CA's are finished and your using your old ones. And stay in melee till you see snaring shot pop up and jump in ranged again..Also if your using a short bow, learn to avoid using confounding arrow and precise shot when using focus aim - end it in snaring shot. And then jump in melee, and half way through snaring shot use either precise shot  or confounding arrow. (your only going to have one gap in 30s this way)..I maintain 1100-1400 dps all the time (with low spikes at 900ish as well).. While theres still a 400 diffrence between dps.. Its better than being embarassed at a 800 diffrence <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.. <strong>Also, make sure you get some good DW weapons in your raids rather than armor so you can maximize your own dps.</strong>(btw, im using a wurmdestroyer bow, grizz dagger, and a adamantine dragonfang for those of you who are curious) <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>Thanks for the advice LoreLady I do jump back and forth between ranged and melee but my DW weapons aren't where I'd like them and I know thats one spot where I can improve.</p> <p>Currently using Wurm Destroyer bow and for DW I have A pristine imbued xeg crescent axe and Blade of the Dark Talon.</p> <p>I have seen 4 fabled DW drop on raids but every time either one of our bards or rouges have had more dkp then me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">I have also been looking at different patterns for my ranged attacks I've been starting with confounding then coverfire and devit so to build extra hate on tank and get in what debuffs we have.  Any suggestions on sequences would be nice to hear.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Some more advice for ya - start off with confounding arrow first. And put up a macro for it so that your wizards/brigs/summoners etc know they can go all out in this time (usually a good time to use this when people are using dispatch etc).. And again, hold off using precise shot, get your Miracle arrow/culling/trip/ - and im missing something somewhere in while using focus aim.. Even though your getting 200-300 less damage because your using snaring shot in that round.. You will make up for it at the 15 sec mark when you just did an extra 2-4k (depending on bow) damage because you put in auto attack.. - Also, dont forget about your AA abilities and that point blank will initiate ranged for you. (a good one inbetween snaring).</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tseri wrote:<div>Corsolander's a ranged fight.  His DS makes it pointless to be anything but a ranged fight.  Uncaged Alzid is mostly ranged, but can be jousted.</div> <div> </div> <div>On most fights I parse in the top 4, plenty of times I'm second on the parse under the assassin.  Mind you I'm second by a very wide margin as he's hitting anywhere from 1200-1500 with spikes up over 2k when all his skills are up.  Our <strong>Brigand</strong> recently respec'd and now he's beating me out on the parse as well.  Yup, rogue class, huge utility...beating out the Ranger, when I bring nothing but DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div>Can I have my damage back please?</div><hr></blockquote>I Melee Corsolander just fine ..its all about position.</div>

[Ishbu]

<blockquote><hr>Pinfall1 wrote:<DIV><P>The point is, the small amount of DPS difference there is isn't going to keep you out of any raid.  <BR></P><hr></blockquote>Yes it will. Many top end raid guilds do not have any rangers or have reduced their number to 1 since KoS came out. It was not uncommon to find even 4-5 rangers in a guild during DoF but most have been kicked/quit/or re-rolled because that lesser amount of dps is just that, less dps. Personally we got rid of one of our rangers and had the other re-roll to a different class. Second Dawn had 4 rangers and I beleive they are down to one, with argueably the best one around playing an inquisitor. NPU also got rid of their ranger. Do you see a trend here? The top end guilds are getting rid of the rangers. Why? Because they are a waste of a spot on a raid. Sorry, but its true.I am not willing to sacrifice 300-500 dps for a zone when I could just take a similar class (assassin) or a class that brings a lot more to the table (brigand, swashbuckler) or even classes that do range dps as well and bring more to the table (wizard, conjuror, necromancer). Then you see people saying well on multi mobs the ranger does better. To that I say I will get a better class (warlock). The bottom line is that rangers do absolutely nothing but dps, but their dps is not top end, not even high end. At best a ranger is still below 6-7 other well played classes. That is a problem.

[Ragepowers]

<P><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Balerius/relic.png"></P> <P> </P> <P>First off Shi is a female. <BR>Second we had a ranger me. <BR>Third we pull together the right group of folks and we clear all the trash mobs.<BR>Fourth we try to pull together 2 groups from Nemesis X and La Familia(non hard core guilds more Family oriented) and pick up who ever else we need to fill the spaces.</P> <P>So don't jump to conclusions.</P><p>Message Edited by Ragepowers13 on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ragepowers13 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p><img src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Balerius/relic.png"></p> <p>First off Shi is a female. Second we had a ranger me. Third we pull together the right group of folks and we clear all the trash mobs.Fourth we try to pull together 2 groups from Nemesis X and La Familia(non hard core guilds more Family oriented) and pick up who ever else we need to fill the spaces.</p> <p>So don't jump to conclusions.</p><p>Message Edited by Ragepowers13 on <span class="date_text">07-25-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I still dont buy it.. the stuff that does drop there is used by 4 classes.. its one thing to ask for a rouge or a bard.. But its another to exclude rangers from a pickup raid.. Even though rangers are having there problems, were still dps.. And thats enough to tag along for.. I dont see the reasoning.</div>

[Jay]

<P>I'm kind of confused, what are you all arguing about? Whether or not the ranger class lacks DPS? I don't think there's a right answer, so I don't know why people are getting so holier-than-thou over it. </P> <P>I guess I kinda think like this:</P> <P><STRONG>- If you don't think the class has any problems:</STRONG> Cool, the class is probably fine for the purposes for which you play it. Enjoy yourself and don't bother getting worked up over some issues that other people have with it. Why get defensive if someone else sees a problem that you don't encounter? They're not attacking you personally. Life goes on, have fun with the game. Yelling at someone b/c they think we have some problems doesn't really change anything besides making yourself unhappy over the opinion of someone you will never meet.</P> <P><STRONG>- If you do think the class has problems:</STRONG> Stop trying to prove it to people who aren't seeing any issues, b/c it doesn't make much difference if they agree with you or not. It's SOE that you need to get through to, not someone who is playing the class in a different context. We don't all share the same experience, that's a given, so there's no reason to beat someone over the head for disagreeing with you. Granted, it'd help get Sony's attention if we were all unanimous, but you know for a fact that that's impossible, so don't waste your time or energy. Find the people who see the problems you're seeing and do what you can to put together 'proof' for Sony, and don't worry about justifying your opinions to ppl who don't share them.</P> <P>And now back to your regularly scheduled bickering...</P>

[Ragepowers]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ragepowers13 wrote:<BR> <P><IMG src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/Balerius/relic.png"></P> <P> </P> <P>First off Shi is a female. <BR>Second we had a ranger me. <BR>Third we pull together the right group of folks and we clear all the trash mobs.<BR>Fourth we try to pull together 2 groups from Nemesis X and La Familia(non hard core guilds more Family oriented) and pick up who ever else we need to fill the spaces.</P> <P>So don't jump to conclusions.</P> <P>Message Edited by Ragepowers13 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:24 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I still dont buy it.. the stuff that does drop there is used by 4 classes.. its one thing to ask for a rouge or a bard.. But its another to exclude rangers from a pickup raid.. Even though rangers are having there problems, were still dps.. And thats enough to tag along for.. I dont see the reasoning.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You don't have to buy it, just stating the facts about said image. We have run up to 3 rangers in our raid.  Rangers are always in the top 5 DPS in our raids. Don't get me wrong they screwed with rangers awhile back but that is not why Shianne is not asking for a Ranger in this scenario. That is all im defending.</P> <P>The fact remains is we are selective of how we fill our 12 spots to insure a good run and equal chance at drops. Tag alongs are not needed, people who play their class to full potential are. Raw DPS alone dosent get you through Labs unless maybe you have 4groups,  we run 2.</P><p>Message Edited by Ragepowers13 on <span class=date_text>07-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:02 PM</span>

[Tseri]

<DIV>I <3 Kaeros, but don't tell him, it's our sekrit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/stalkermode on</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And now that we have clarification as to the resoning why they weren't looking for a ranger I think this post has now reached dead horse level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let it go for this one!  Discuss the other topics in the other threads that are already made!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's all...nothing left to see here.  Move along.  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Mazrik85]

<P>Ishboozor:</P> <P>You honestly kicked one of your members out because his class was no longer the "best" at dealing damage?  I understand some people/guilds have an unhealthy need to stroke their egos by being the "best" in game (cause you know... EQ2 is serious business *rolls eyes*) but come on isnt that just a tad over the top?  I would hope there is more to that story like the ranger still being a recruit or something and that you honestly didnt remove a long term guild mate and potential friend of your members.  I know you dont care, but I pity your guild if thats how things are run.</P> <P>Anyway on topic.  What is so sad about all this ranger nonsense is that in reality rangers still deal great damage.  I agree they could use a boost to bring them in line with Assassins but that doesnt mean that they are "worthless" like some of you claim.  If you bring a ranger over an assassin its not going to make or break ANY raid and if it does... your raid sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anyway.  If you cant raid successfully because one of your members is dealing 1300 DPS instead of 1600 DPS then you have no right to be raiding period imo.  I hang out with a few rangers every day and they always bring it strong and add a ton of DPS to the table.  Could an assassin add more?  Yeah.  Enough to make any *real* difference in our success?  No.  </P> <P>If you think you need a boost then I agree.  If you think the class is worthless and broken then your just a drama queen.</P> <P>Message Edited by Mazrik85 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:58 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Mazrik85 on <span class=date_text>07-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 AM</span>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mazrik85 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>If you think you need a boost then I agree.  If you think the class is worthless and broken then your just a drama queen.</p><hr></blockquote>Thats my feeling on the whole subject</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mazrik85 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Ishboozor:</p> <p>You honestly kicked one of your members out because his class was no longer the "best" at dealing damage?  I understand some people/guilds have an unhealthy need to stroke their egos by being the "best" in game (cause you know... EQ2 is serious business *rolls eyes*) but come on isnt that just a tad over the top?  I would hope there is more to that story like the ranger still being a recruit or something and that you honestly didnt remove a long term guild mate and potential friend of your members.  I know you dont care, but I pity your guild if thats how things are run.</p> <p>Anyway on topic.  What is so sad about all this ranger nonsense is that in reality rangers still deal great damage.  I agree they could use a boost to bring them in line with Assassins but that doesnt mean that they are "worthless" like some of you claim.  If you bring a ranger over an assassin its not going to make or break ANY raid and if it does... your raid sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anyway.  If you cant raid successfully because one of your members is dealing 1300 DPS instead of 1600 DPS then you have no right to be raiding period imo.  I hang out with a few rangers every day and they always bring it strong and add a ton of DPS to the table.  Could an assassin add more?  Yeah.  Enough to make any *real* difference in our success?  No.  </p> <p>If you think you need a boost then I agree.  If you think the class is worthless and broken then your just a drama queen.</p> <p>Message Edited by Mazrik85 on <span class="date_text">07-26-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:58 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Mazrik85 on <span class="date_text">07-26-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:59 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The ranger rerolled to a zerker and found himself doing more dps with similar gear. This zerkers name is kobal (forgot what his rangers name is though) And hes in the top raidguild on the game witht he most t7 firsts</div>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>And now back to your regularly scheduled bickering...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Best comment in this thread<BR>

[Ragepowers]

<P align=center><IMG src="http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~hobd8260/BeatDeadHorse.gif"></P>