The gap pt 2

[LoreLady]

<div></div><font face="Courier New">Ok, I want to explain my thinking and a summary on why I did this.. My first thing is, the harder I button mash the less dps I seem to do when I try hard to get my best, I end up being the bottom. Effort should equal damage, unfortunatly the way our skills our set it doesnt allow for that. Second, I want to mention that peak dps in raids for rangers is 1400, assassins 2000, wizards 2000. The way I did this is so that people can start from the top and read there way down to how I got my answers. I took each and every damage art and added the totals, then categorized the totals then compared the total damages. Then, I went down to cast times to see the diffrence. If we were ballanced these things would equal themselves out. Like, if there is 50% less damage in the total damages there should be a 50% faster time to cast inorder to get equal damage.</font><font face="Courier New">Ranger                25851        38378        72420Assassin              28296        47624        63671                      ----                      2445(assa)   9246(assa)   8749(rng)</font><font face="Courier New">In theroy these totals are ballanced, one will jump ontop of another. This is with snipers shot, decapitate, and mark excluded.</font><font face="Courier New">With mark--Ranger                    25851        38378        72420Assassin                  32101        51429        67476                              ---          ---          ---                              6250         89807        4944This is with mark, to give a greater handle on where assassins actually are, unfortunatly the likely hood of an assassin doing max damage with mark in a group or solo setting is slim, so I have chosen to seperate these.</font><font face="Courier New">Ranger                    14.4|</font><font face="Courier New">20.5</font><font face="Courier New">      18.8|</font><font face="Courier New">26.5</font><font face="Courier New">      31.8|</font><font face="Courier New">45.5 (poise/without poise)</font><font face="Courier New">Asssassin                 8.8(10.7)      12.6(17.4)     22.6(30.5) (all abilities included)  ----           ---                              5.6s 38%diff   6.2s(32% diff) 9.2(2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(rng - posie/assa - poise)                          3.7  26%       1.4    7.4%    1.3  4.1(Rng- poise. Assa - no poise)</font><font face="Courier New">When I  say all abilities included snipers shot is still taken out of here.. The first number is poise on both ends, the second is without poise. ON the second number after the | is without poise. Now, first diffrence in numbers is with both classes with poise, the second diffrence in numbers is rangers with poise assassins without poise. So this is showing that even though rangers are getting aa's, these aa's are just to put a ranger with an assassin who doesnt have any aa's.. What needs to be changed, is all our frontal melee abilities need to be changed and boosted to start with - shocking thrust, rip, lunging joust. And then another small boost to either recasts, or damage to archery abilities.  And a large increase in the ability snaring shot. It should be easy for a ranger to achieve 1k dps without influence of other classes. The way things should be, the harder I button mash the higher my damage should go.I was talking to sokolov on the phone the other day, the main thing he dident seem to understand is why I did things in a set time with damage, mathimatical time on the second part. The reasoning for that, is that there is a diffrence in that time I cant say that all abilities used will add up to 30 seconds for the first interval, and then 1 min for the next. The amount of time passed to use all the abilities once is diffrent between the two of them so I cannot give st intervals. What I can do however, is add both times up. Then add or subtract them from the total damages from the percentage of the time diffrence. The shorter the time diffrence, the less diffrence in damage, the greater the time diffrence the greater the diffrence in damage. So if I had 600 damage in 1 minute, and then 610 damage in a minute 10. Both would even out to 600.</font><hr size="2" width="100%">Ranger<font face="Courier New">--- Archery---                         30s        1m                                               Amazing shot(1m)          1515         --         (crit)                   (1969)        --         3938                         Counfounding arrow(30s)   1249         2872         (crit)                   (1623)        ---        4495                          Culling of the Weak(1m)   1832         --         (crit)                   (2381)        --         4762                           Devitalizing Arrow(1m     1581         --         4110(crit)                   (2055)                                             Precise shot(20s)         882          2028       I  (crit)                   (1146)        --         3174                                               Tripple volly(1m)         2412         --         (crit)                   (3135)        --         6270                            -----                       Sub total                 9471           -Focusaim-                12312        14440      39061</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">Snaring shot (10s)        533          1599       3198                            Vieled Fire(1m 30s)       3886         --         --                             ---                      Subtotal                  16731        19925      42259(above ranged abilities with crits included)      ---                       </font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">                          Melee                                               Arrow Rip(20s)            802          1604       2406Emberstrike(10s)          1181         3543       7086Longblade(10s)            852          2556       5112Lunging Joust(20s)        815          1630       2445Rangers blade(1m)         2754         --         5508Shocking Thrust(10s)      588          1764       3348                         ---                      Subtotal                  6992         16325      25905</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">Dot                       Mortal Reminder (30s)     2128         ---        4256                         Hawkdive - No actual figures.                                 ---                       Subtotal                  2128         ---        4256</font><font face="Courier New">                          </font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New"><font face="Courier New">Area of effect                        Rain of arrows (2min)     4336         ---        ---(4targets)                17344(8targets)                34688                          Selection(1min)           1705         ---        3410(4targets)                6820         --         13630-8targets-                13640        ---        27280---                       Subtotal                  6041         ---        7746(4 targets)               24164        ---        30974(8 targets)               48328        ---        61968---                       </font>                          </font><font face="Courier New">Snipers shot              9224         ---</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">-------------------------------------------Total                     25851                               With crit+snipers         ---                       </font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New"><b>Assassin                              </b></font><font face="Courier New">--                        Range                                 --                        Assasiling Blast(20s)     882          1764        2646Contrived Weapon(20s)     902          1804        2706Neck shot(1m)             2492         --          4984Spitting asp(1m)          2016         --          4032                          ---                       Subtotal                  6292         3568        14368---                       </font>                                                           <hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">DoTs                      Deadly Wound(20s)(24d)    1431         2862        4293Flowing Wound(30s)24d)    2063         4126        6189Scraping Blow(10s)(12d)   713          2139        4278                         ---                       Subtotal                  4207         9127        14760</font>---                                                                                                                              <hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">---                       Melee                     ---                       Crippling strike(1m)      1604         --          3208Eviscerate(1m)            2754         --          5508Finishing blow(45s)       1504         --          3008Freezing strike(1m)       1672         --          3344Jugular(1m)               1957         --          3914Killing Blade(2m)         6335         --          --Masked attack(10s)        852         2556         5112Puncture Blade(10s)       1299        3897         7794</font><font face="Courier New">---Subtotal                  17977       24430        38223---                     </font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">AE's                                                Slaughtersault(1m)        1876        ---          3752(4 Targets)               7504        ---          15008(8 Targets)               15005       ---          300016                          Cloaked Assault(30s)12d)  2312        4624         6936(4 Targets)               9248        18496        27744(8 Targets)               18496       36992        55488                                     ---                       Subtotal                  4188        6936         10688(4targets)                16752       35248        42752(8targets)                33504       70493        355504</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">---                       Misc                      ---      Decapitate(10m)           14454(excluded)           Malignant Mark(30s)       3805(excluded)</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">------------------------- Total                     28296----------Comparison of totals    ----                               ---Range                  ---Ranger                    16731        19925        42259Assassin                  6292         9860         14368                          ---          --           ---                          10439(rang)  10065(rng)   27891(rng)</font><font face="Courier New">---                     Melee---Ranger                    6992         16325        25905Assassin                  17977        24430        38223                          --           ---          --                          10985(assa)  8105(assa)   12318(assa)---DoT's                    ---   Ranger                    2128         2128         4256Assassin                  4207         13334        14760                          ---          ---          ---                          2079(assa)   11206(assa)  10504(assa)---AoE's(single target)                 ---Ranger                    6041         6041         7746Assassin                  4188         6936         10688                          ----         ---          ---                          1853(ranger) 895(assa)    2942(assa)</font><font face="Courier New">-------------------       Total Diffrence(AE's excluded and misc excluded)---------------                    Ranger                    25851        38378        72420Assassin                  28296        47624        63671                          ----                          2445(assa)   9246(assa)   8749(rng)                                      With mark--Ranger                    25851        38378        72420Assassin                  32101        51429        67476                              ---          ---          ---                              6250         89807        4944</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Actuall Cast times involved------------------------------                          IAmazing shot              1.1(1.5)    1    1.1    2    2.2Arrow rip                 0.3(.5)     2    0.6    3    0.9Confounding Arrow         0.7(1)      2    1.4    3    2.1Culling of the Weak       1.1(1.5)    1    1.1    2    2.2Emberstrike               0.3(.5)     3    0.9    6    1.8Devitalizing arrow        1.1(1.5)    1    1.1    2    2.2Longblade                 0.3(.5)     3    0.9    6    1.8Lunging joust             0.3(.5)     2    0.6    3    0.9Mortal Reminder           0.3(.5)     1    0.3    3    0.9Precise shot              0.7(1)      2    1.4    3    2.1   <---(stupid mistake)Rain of arrows            1.4(2)      1    1.4    1    1.4Rangers blade             0.3(.5)     1    0.3    2    0.6Selection                 2.2(3)      1    2.2    2    4.4Shocking thrust           0.3(.5)     3    0.9    6    1.8Snipers shot              3.7(5)      1    --          --Tripple Volley            1.1(1.5)    1    1.1    2    2.2Vield fire                2.2(3)      1    2.2    1    2.2Focus aim                 0.7(1)      1    0.7    2    1.4                          ---                          14.4(20.5)       18.8(26.5)  31.1(45.5)                          ---                          18.1(25.5)(with snipers shot)                          ---                         Assailing blast           0.7(1)    2    1.4(2)    3    2.1(3)    Cloaked assault           0.7(1)    1    0.7(1)    2    1.4(2)Contrived Weapon          0.7(1)    2    1.4(2)    3    2.1(3)Crippling strike          0.3(.5)   1    0.3(.5)   2    0.6(1)Deadly wound              0.3(.5)   2    0.6(1)    3    0.9(1.5)Eviscerate                0.3(.5)   1    0.3(.5)   2    0.6(1)Finishing blow            0.3(.5)   1    0.3(.5)   2    0.6(1)Flowing wound             0.3(.5)   2    0.6(1)    3    0.9(1.5)Freezing strike           0.3(.5)   1    0.3(.5)   2    0.6(1)Jugular                   0.3(.5)   1    0.3(.5)   2    0.6(1)Malignant mark            0.1(.2)   2    0.2(.4)   3    0.4(0.6)Killing blade             0.3(.5)   1    0.3(.5)   1    0.3(.5)Masked attack             0.3(.5)   3    0.9(1.5)  6    1.8(3)Neck shot                 1.4(2)    1    1.4(2)    2    2.8(4)Puncture blade            0.3(.5)   3    0.9(1.5)  6    1.8(3)Slaughtersault            1.1(1.5)  2    2.2(3)    3    3.3(4.5)Spitting asp              1.1(1.5)  1    1.1(1.5)  2    2.2(3)Scrapping blow            0.3(.5)   3    0.9(1.5)  6    1.8(3)                          ---                              9.1            12.6           22.6                          ---Ranger                    14.4|</font><font face="Courier New">20.5</font><font face="Courier New">      18.8|</font><font face="Courier New">26.5</font><font face="Courier New">      31.8|</font><font face="Courier New">45.5</font><font face="Courier New">Asssassin                 8.8(10.7)      12.6(17.4)     22.6(30.5)(all abilities included)  ----           ---                              5.6s 38%diff   6.2s(32% diff) 9.2(2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />                          3.7  26%       1.4    7.4%    1.3  4.1%</font><font face="Courier New"></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font face="Courier New">Lets take the base cast times, then add it to the totals of the first total to the ranger total in casttime.(assuming both have poise)Ranger                   18612           26097        52142                Assassin                 32101           51429        67476                           ---            ---          ---                         13489           25332        15334</font><hr size="2" width="100%">You can also use this to make a pattern, there is only one change here and thats at the 2-4 min mark with the assassins killing blade.  You will see the longer the fight is, the bigger the gap is.. I also wish to point out that 6292(assa dot) + 17977(assa melee) = 24269. And Ranger ranged 16731.24269 - 16731 = 7538 diffrence. To dispell any myths about rangers being able to maintain ranged dps and stay on the top of there game.I want everyone to remember.. That these values should be similar to similar damage even without poise.. Poise should be a bonus, not bringing a 50 aa'd ranger to a 0 aa'd assassin. The problem isent in our AA's. It is in our class basics.                        No more editing, additions, tweaks, you name it to this. If you want to expand it, do at your own time. I just wanted to write this out to show there is a problem and where it lies. And if this thread gets locked for any reason IE: flamming, dev trying to do a "cover up", insaulting assassins or ranger, etc.. I will do my best to annoy you!All credit for this goes to Mortred on the Befallen server.(Person posting this)<font face="Courier New"></font><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class="date_text">07-18-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:22 AM- Found a mistake in cast times, total time is lowered by .7.. - I likely was looking at number of times or hit the wrong button etc... Things happen..  Most of the mistakes I found were was spacing all this junk.  </span></p><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class="date_text">07-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:59 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class="date_text">07-21-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:59 AM</span></p><p> Ok, now that I have gotten that out of the way.. Now to get rid of a large misconception in every rangers eyes.. AE's.---AoE's(single target)---                            Inst           30s         1min      1m30s   2minRanger                    6041        6041        7746       7746    13787Assassin                 4188        6936        10688     13000  17188                                 ----            ---                               1853         895           29421705 Nat   4336 rain               1876slaughter1m    2312cloaked (30sSee where im going with this?The next person who says rain is the oposite of snipers shot gets a rotten tomato to the face. It will have green mold that will smell and wont leave, I stopped using arrows a LONG time ago these work much MUCH better.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><hr size="2" width="100%"><hr size="2" width="100%">Sokolovs data<p>Ranger vs Assassin An single target damage over time analysis Some Assumptions and Defintions: Gear - Gear is considered equal for both Predators Skills - All Skills are being considered as Master 1 AAs - AAs are considered equal (Poise makes little difference) Damage Maximization - Both classes are assumed to be maximizing damage potential and able to use all abilities Cast Order - Cast order is being ignored for sake of simplicity (and is abstracted by the DPS calculaton done on the skils) Recycle Time - Defined as Cast Time + Recovery Time + Recast Time DPS - Defined as Damage / Recycle Time Recycle Time for DoTs - Recycle Time for DoT (Damage over Time) abilities are considered to me the duration of the DoT component of the skill or the sum of the Cast + Recovery + Recast timers, whichever is greater. EDIT: Further Clarifications: Crits - Considered intangible and not included Damage - Damage numbers culled from the OP Sniper's/Decapitate - These skills have a recast time larger than the study period of 180s, thus the recycle time has been abstracted to 180s to simulate the fact that these skills can be used once per encounter. This analysis utilizes the idea that each skill has a damage per second factor that can be approximated by taking its damage and dividing it over its recycle time. This has the inherent problem of not being to accurately gauge burst damage potential as it averages out a skill's damage and is obviously an inaccurate in the short run due to assumption of damage from time=0s.  But it has the advantage of allowing us to abstract any set of skill's damage into almost any time frame.  In this case, we are using 180s as a typical raid encounter length in our analysis.  It also allows us to ignore casting order and still come out with a fairly reliable average DPS due to its pro-rated nature. I have also done the charts in such a manner that allows you to compare the skills obtained by each class at the same levels. Ranger</p><p><img src="http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5622/rangerbd0.jpg"> </p>Assassin<img src="http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5678/assassincf3.jpg">Immage location<img src="http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/525/summarybe2.jpg"> Using the above assumptions as listed, an Assassin will deal ~12% more DPS with his CAs than a Ranger<hr size="2" width="100%">Each skill has been calculated to a raw DPS number and then abstracted to each time segment.  As I explained in my original post, this is not representative of the normal order of things, but is representative of the potential DPS that each skill can provide. Thus, even tho it would only do its damage at certain intervals, the damage is applied based on the per second damage a skill provides over its recycle time. All this I explained in my post. The advantage of this method is that it provides abstracted numbers which can be used in various situations. Another advantage is that cast times, recovery times and recast times are all taken into consideration from the outset. As an aside, I can very easily give you what happens to each class' DPS if cast times were increased or decreased. And incidentally, this is what happens to the chart with Poise applied:<img src="http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2233/sumih1.jpg"> Notice that DPS increases by a mere 9 points and total damage changed by less than 2000 for each class - thus supporting the idea that changes in cast time has little effect overall on CA DPS when considering damage over the time elapsed of a typical encounter. As you said, it's math and I personally have every confidence in my methodology, tho I would not expect everyone to agree with it. In any case, again I state that I was never disagreeing with anything except your OP's methodology. Also, the range of damage is really irrelevant.  The % difference is what's vital and we see that the assassin's CAs provides 12% more DPS and this is subject to increase if equivalvent additional % buffs are applied to the base damage numbers.<hr size="2" width="100%">Top part of the post done by Mortred, bottom by Sokolov.Btw, hope you dont mind me putting up a new thread on this - I havent changed a thing on it cept put it into one post.. Send me a PM, or message me on game if you want anything changed or edited. <p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>07-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:09 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

No sleep, still cant seem to get the same numbers.. (granted, ive been elseware). In reality the damage diffrence is still somewhere around 25% though, once you take into account mark. Assassins claim that mark contributes about 15%-30% of there dps.

[Dojoc]

fine but why is Lunging Joust a DoT ? the last time i used it it was a root, not a DoT <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />but again, nice post<div></div>

[BSbon]

this is an interresting looking post but too many numbers for me. math hurts my head. you should do one for wizard as well.

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div>this is an interresting looking post but too many numbers for me. math hurts my head. you should do one for wizard as well.<hr></blockquote>Work hurts my head.. Im already in enough pain thanks to you lazy bums <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Prandtl]

<P>The issue I have with Sokolov's spreadsheet in with Rain of Arrows.  You show a 120 second recast, wereas in actuallity it is 3 minutes (180s.)    This raises AOE damage quite a bit in your charts.   Also, we see "partial shots" for a few long recast CA's such as RoA.  I think that will remedy itself in your abstraction once the timer is set to 3 minutes.</P> <P>I still believe that primary damage mode (ranged or melee) should play into this analysis for the reasons I mentioned in the previous thread.   </P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Prandtl wrote:<div></div> <p></p> <p>I still believe that primary damage mode (ranged or melee) should play into this analysis for the reasons I mentioned in the previous thread.   </p><hr></blockquote>Word it to something I can understand please, I dont understand what you mean. If your talking auto attack, thats invalid information because they are supost to be ballanced and the above data does not show any of that.I probabbly dident comment on your pervious thread for not knowing what you mean..And anyone who wants to post here please remember the saying "keep it simple stupid" - pointing at sokolov <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (just poking fun at you).</div>

[Sirlutt]

your numbers are useless.. DPS for ALL classes is situational .. it depends on so many factors.. gear.. mobs.. random things like procs .. players skill etc etc.. doing a comprehensive analysis is pointless.the only people who have access to the correct data is SOE.  They collect data on a daily basis.  That was stated when they upped the damage on a few CA's because they noted across the board those CA's averaged less damage than the assassin equivilent.  They have access to a whole host of data you and I dont and you can be sure they ARE looking at it.You lost me in your post when you said raid average for rangers is 1400 and assassins 2000 and wizards 2000 .. nice plucking of numbers out of your butt.. with absoloutly nothing to support it.. what raids? .. how long were the fights?.. was someone feeling tired ?.. what gear did they have.. what about procs ?..  etc etc.. save yourself some time.. play more, crunch numbers less.<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:your numbers are useless.. DPS for ALL classes is situational .. it depends on so many factors.. gear.. mobs.. random things like procs .. players skill etc etc.. doing a comprehensive analysis is pointless.the only people who have access to the correct data is SOE.  They collect data on a daily basis.  That was stated when they upped the damage on a few CA's because they noted across the board those CA's averaged less damage than the assassin equivilent.  They have access to a whole host of data you and I dont and you can be sure they ARE looking at it.You lost me in your post when you said raid average for rangers is 1400 and assassins 2000 and wizards 2000 .. nice plucking of numbers out of your butt.. with absoloutly nothing to support it.. what raids? .. how long were the fights?.. was someone feeling tired ?.. what gear did they have.. what about procs ?..  etc etc.. save yourself some time.. play more, crunch numbers less.<div></div><hr></blockquote>While I gave those numbers thats the peak averages I am seeing on my own raids, at a 250 - to those variables meaning can be anywhere in between.  And for you to tell me my numbers are useless tells me you need to take a second look at the numbers.. We are eliminating those factors and doing a direct comparison to direct data. Things we cannot measure are taunts, utility, players, and there is no way to measure gear to one person in another in apost. What we CAN do on the other hand is take what we know, every time I click an ability I know the max damage I know the cast time and recast and we know what to expect out of that ability, thats what we are comparing..You have done two posts in your first you called the ranger community abunch of morons, in the second you say that you cannot compare damage with the numbers we have given and you have given a stamped answer without even reading the conclusions or how it was done. Go away, I dont want you trolling this community, and I dont wish to be called a [Removed for Content].PS - And go read the gap - part 1.. It shows how I came up with those numbers. If you take the cast times at each ability used on what you can possibly use in at the one minute mark then take the totals and then devide the time it takes to cast every ability you get roughly 1500 for rangers, 2000 for assassins. This is max total dps rangers and assassins can put out - a diffrence of 25%.  Sokolov is saying its 12% diffrence, thats where this discussion is right now. Neither of us are stating that ranger dps needs to be increased.</div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>07-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:46 PM</span>

[Recca[BK]]

woohoo keep posting random numbers on a spreadsheet lore, maybe someday youll crack the code.

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:your numbers are useless.. DPS for ALL classes is situational .. it depends on so many factors.. gear.. mobs.. random things like procs .. players skill etc etc.. doing a comprehensive analysis is pointless.the only people who have access to the correct data is SOE.  They collect data on a daily basis.  That was stated when they upped the damage on a few CA's because they noted across the board those CA's averaged less damage than the assassin equivilent.  They have access to a whole host of data you and I dont and you can be sure they ARE looking at it.You lost me in your post when you said raid average for rangers is 1400 and assassins 2000 and wizards 2000 .. nice plucking of numbers out of your butt.. with absoloutly nothing to support it.. what raids? .. how long were the fights?.. was someone feeling tired ?.. what gear did they have.. what about procs ?..  etc etc.. save yourself some time.. play more, crunch numbers less.<div></div><hr></blockquote>While I gave those numbers thats the peak averages I am seeing on my own raids, at a 250 - to those variables meaning can be anywhere in between.  And for you to tell me my numbers are useless tells me you need to take a second look at the numbers.. We are eliminating those factors and doing a direct comparison to direct data. Things we cannot measure are taunts, utility, players, and there is no way to measure gear to one person in another in apost. What we CAN do on the other hand is take what we know, every time I click an ability I know the max damage I know the cast time and recast and we know what to expect out of that ability, thats what we are comparing..You have done two posts in your first you called the ranger community abunch of morons, in the second you say that you cannot compare damage with the numbers we have given and you have given a stamped answer without even reading the conclusions or how it was done. Go away, I dont want you trolling this community, and I dont wish to be called a [Removed for Content].</div><hr></blockquote>Havent been around here much have you ?.. i was a ranger .. and I've been a ranger before it was cool.. before we did bunches of damage and retired when they sucked the fun out of it.. and not because i didnt do enough damage, but because i didnt bring anything BUT damage to the group.Remember i am not the one campaigning to get other classes nerf'd, you are.  Personally I think thats totally reprehensible and the worst kind of manners .. you cant have what you want, so everyone has to be brought down to your level.Your numbers ARE useless, they dont prove a single thing because I see in parses nightly Rangers doing just as much if not more DPs than me ..turn the parser off and play .. thats when the TRUE differences come out.. you dont bring anything else to a raid but your damage, nothing.. Rangers arent sucking because of DPS, they are sucking because you are a wasted spot in most situations .. and adding a bunch of damage isnt going to fix that at all.. awesome.. you now supposedly do as much damage as class X (which you already do, its situational) .. great.. we still want class X on the raid cos they do a whole bunch of other stuf that you dont.so keep up with the witch hunt if you like.. but dont go calling me out as a troll..i have been here a while and will be here a while longer.</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:your numbers are useless.. DPS for ALL classes is situational .. it depends on so many factors.. gear.. mobs.. random things like procs .. players skill etc etc.. doing a comprehensive analysis is pointless.the only people who have access to the correct data is SOE.  They collect data on a daily basis.  That was stated when they upped the damage on a few CA's because they noted across the board those CA's averaged less damage than the assassin equivilent.  They have access to a whole host of data you and I dont and you can be sure they ARE looking at it.You lost me in your post when you said raid average for rangers is 1400 and assassins 2000 and wizards 2000 .. nice plucking of numbers out of your butt.. with absoloutly nothing to support it.. what raids? .. how long were the fights?.. was someone feeling tired ?.. what gear did they have.. what about procs ?..  etc etc.. save yourself some time.. play more, crunch numbers less.<div></div><hr></blockquote>While I gave those numbers thats the peak averages I am seeing on my own raids, at a 250 - to those variables meaning can be anywhere in between.  And for you to tell me my numbers are useless tells me you need to take a second look at the numbers.. We are eliminating those factors and doing a direct comparison to direct data. Things we cannot measure are taunts, utility, players, and there is no way to measure gear to one person in another in apost. What we CAN do on the other hand is take what we know, every time I click an ability I know the max damage I know the cast time and recast and we know what to expect out of that ability, thats what we are comparing..You have done two posts in your first you called the ranger community abunch of morons, in the second you say that you cannot compare damage with the numbers we have given and you have given a stamped answer without even reading the conclusions or how it was done. Go away, I dont want you trolling this community, and I dont wish to be called a [Removed for Content].</div><hr></blockquote>Havent been around here much have you ?.. i was a ranger .. and I've been a ranger before it was cool.. before we did bunches of damage and retired when they sucked the fun out of it.. and not because i didnt do enough damage, but because i didnt bring anything BUT damage to the group. <font color="#ff0000">Ive played ranger since day one, I have been through the hardships and glory with being that. Dont presume to know you know someone else.</font>Remember i am not the one campaigning to get other classes nerf'd, you are.  Personally I think thats totally reprehensible and the worst kind of manners .. you cant have what you want, so everyone has to be brought down to your level.<font color="#ff0000">No where has anyone called out for nerfs, no where have we proven assassins need nerfing.. Not when you look at every other class in the game, its unlikely sony will nerf every class that does damage because rangers are falling short.</font>Your numbers ARE useless, they dont prove a single thing because I see in parses nightly Rangers doing just as much if not more DPs than me ..<font color="#ff0000">Your 69, likely dealing with sup 50 aa's. If your dealing with rangers with more aa's than you they are going to do more damage. Thats one thing I pointed out in my post.</font>turn the parser off and play .. thats when the TRUE differences come out.. you dont bring anything else to a raid but your damage, nothing.. Rangers arent sucking because of DPS, they are sucking because you are a wasted spot in most situations .. and adding a bunch of damage isnt going to fix that at all.. awesome.. you now supposedly do as much damage as class X (which you already do, its situational) .. great.. we still want class X on the raid cos they do a whole bunch of other stuf that you dont.<font color="#ff0000">And they are comming out, as I am saying. You just dont seem to raid, or dont seem to be even midway on the raiding scale.</font>so keep up with the witch hunt if you like.. but dont go calling me out as a troll..i have been here a while and will be here a while longer.<font color="#ff0000">I call you a troll because you call the ranger community morons.  And good for you - but put consistancy in your posts and logic. Dont be wishy washy.. If you have a problem with this post, post on data you feel is lacking. Or data you feel is out of place. Keep opinions out when people are taking great steps to show proof not opinion.I challenge you to put up a third one - at ranger/assassin at equal str and give me any numbers you wish to try and prove me wrong.. I gurentee you that wont work because I have covered my basis in my own compiling of data. And so has sokolov - just in a diffrent way.</font></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:your numbers are useless.. DPS for ALL classes is situational .. it depends on so many factors.. gear.. mobs.. random things like procs .. players skill etc etc.. doing a comprehensive analysis is pointless.the only people who have access to the correct data is SOE.  They collect data on a daily basis.  That was stated when they upped the damage on a few CA's because they noted across the board those CA's averaged less damage than the assassin equivilent.  They have access to a whole host of data you and I dont and you can be sure they ARE looking at it.You lost me in your post when you said raid average for rangers is 1400 and assassins 2000 and wizards 2000 .. nice plucking of numbers out of your butt.. with absoloutly nothing to support it.. what raids? .. how long were the fights?.. was someone feeling tired ?.. what gear did they have.. what about procs ?..  etc etc.. save yourself some time.. play more, crunch numbers less.<div></div><hr></blockquote>While I gave those numbers thats the peak averages I am seeing on my own raids, at a 250 - to those variables meaning can be anywhere in between.  And for you to tell me my numbers are useless tells me you need to take a second look at the numbers.. We are eliminating those factors and doing a direct comparison to direct data. Things we cannot measure are taunts, utility, players, and there is no way to measure gear to one person in another in apost. What we CAN do on the other hand is take what we know, every time I click an ability I know the max damage I know the cast time and recast and we know what to expect out of that ability, thats what we are comparing..You have done two posts in your first you called the ranger community abunch of morons, in the second you say that you cannot compare damage with the numbers we have given and you have given a stamped answer without even reading the conclusions or how it was done. Go away, I dont want you trolling this community, and I dont wish to be called a [Removed for Content].</div><hr></blockquote>Havent been around here much have you ?.. i was a ranger .. and I've been a ranger before it was cool.. before we did bunches of damage and retired when they sucked the fun out of it.. and not because i didnt do enough damage, but because i didnt bring anything BUT damage to the group. <font color="#ff0000">Ive played ranger since day one, I have been through the hardships and glory with being that. Dont presume to know you know someone else.</font>Remember i am not the one campaigning to get other classes nerf'd, you are.  Personally I think thats totally reprehensible and the worst kind of manners .. you cant have what you want, so everyone has to be brought down to your level.<font color="#ff0000">No where has anyone called out for nerfs, no where have we proven assassins need nerfing.. Not when you look at every other class in the game, its unlikely sony will nerf every class that does damage because rangers are falling short.</font>Your numbers ARE useless, they dont prove a single thing because I see in parses nightly Rangers doing just as much if not more DPs than me ..<font color="#ff0000">Your 69, likely dealing with sup 50 aa's. If your dealing with rangers with more aa's than you they are going to do more damage. Thats one thing I pointed out in my post.</font>turn the parser off and play .. thats when the TRUE differences come out.. you dont bring anything else to a raid but your damage, nothing.. Rangers arent sucking because of DPS, they are sucking because you are a wasted spot in most situations .. and adding a bunch of damage isnt going to fix that at all.. awesome.. you now supposedly do as much damage as class X (which you already do, its situational) .. great.. we still want class X on the raid cos they do a whole bunch of other stuf that you dont.<font color="#ff0000">And they are comming out, as I am saying. You just dont seem to raid, or dont seem to be even midway on the raiding scale.</font>so keep up with the witch hunt if you like.. but dont go calling me out as a troll..i have been here a while and will be here a while longer.<font color="#ff0000">I call you a troll because you call the ranger community morons.  And good for you - but put consistancy in your posts and logic. Dont be wishy washy.. If you have a problem with this post, post on data you feel is lacking. Or data you feel is out of place. Keep opinions out when people are taking great steps to show proof not opinion.I challenge you to put up a third one - at ranger/assassin at equal str and give me any numbers you wish to try and prove me wrong.. I gurentee you that wont work because I have covered my basis in my own compiling of data. And so has sokolov - just in a diffrent way.</font></div><hr></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>I'm not the one trying to compensate for something lacking .. i have no problems keeping up in parses with any of the classes on our raids.  I had no problems keeping up on T6 raids after rangers were fixed.  Waste your time putting together spreadsheets on all this if you like, its not going to change a single thing becaause you dont have all the data.  Sony has all the data.  They mine the logs daily and can see alot more than the sliver of data you represent.  Their data is across all servers, all types of game play.  They bumped Rangers once based on this data, and if they needed a bump based on that data they woudl dare say so it again.  Their data doesnt show things like player perceptions, and utility.  Both of which are against Rangers and are the issues you should be trying to address.I dont have to provide any data, it'd be as useless as the data you provide on your nerf hunt.  Same str ?.. big deal, what about all the other factors.I'd love to see the parses where your Rangers and Assassins are at 1400 and 2000 DPS AVERAGE .. not fancy spreadsheets with magical formulaes and pixie dust.. honest to goodnesst aggregated parses of named epic yellow/orange encounters.  Groups, singles, etc etc.  Show me that data.  Show me that data not just from you, and your assassins and wizards.. but from multiple guilds on mulitple servers across mulitple encounters.  See the scope creep there ?  You dont HAVE that data and so your numbers are useless.. try sollowing some scientific principles.. you have far too many variables and NO data gathered from the wild.Your on a witch hunt to bring others down to your level, when you should be on a crusade to add stuff to your class.. they wont add damage because they have the data you dont have.. but I bet if you crusaded for some decent utility for rangers, such as group buffs, or something that made you more useful than another class in some situations then you'd have more luck.</div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr><div><blockquote><div><blockquote><hr></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>I'm not the one trying to compensate for something lacking .. i have no problems keeping up in parses with any of the classes on our raids.  I had no problems keeping up on T6 raids after rangers were fixed.  Waste your time putting together spreadsheets on all this if you like, its not going to change a single thing becaause you dont have all the data.  Sony has all the data.  They mine the logs daily and can see alot more than the sliver of data you represent.  Their data is across all servers, all types of game play.  They bumped Rangers once based on this data, and if they needed a bump based on that data they woudl dare say so it again.  Their data doesnt show things like player perceptions, and utility.  Both of which are against Rangers and are the issues you should be trying to address.<font color="#ffff00">Sony has also said they were going to look into a diffrent way of crafting arrows, that was back in LU20ish. The head crafting dev said that, thats what 5 months ago. Just because sony has the data doesnt mean its being fixed right away. And, how come when you read posts like the most useless class rangers keep comming up time and time again? Why is it that the top raiding guild IN THIS GAME doesnt want rangers in there roster. I was sceptical at first of what they said I even shunned the person telling me this info. It was a while later untill I started to see the trend myself where our guild assassin started doing much more dps than me as he gained AA's and I stayed at the 50 aa mark, and when our wizard started matching then outmatching our assassin.The people on here that have seen this trend for themselves are - sokolov, balaerius, ixany, kobal, (any other fully geared toons playing at there best).</font>I dont have to provide any data, it'd be as useless as the data you provide on your nerf hunt.  Same str ?.. big deal, what about all the other factors.I'd love to see the parses where your Rangers and Assassins are at 1400 and 2000 DPS AVERAGE .. not fancy spreadsheets with magical formulaes and pixie dust.. honest to goodnesst aggregated parses of named epic yellow/orange encounters.  Groups, singles, etc etc.  Show me that data.  Show me that data not just from you, and your assassins and wizards.. but from multiple guilds on mulitple servers across mulitple encounters.  See the scope creep there ?  You dont HAVE that data and so your numbers are useless.. try sollowing some scientific principles.. you have far too many variables and NO data gathered from the wild.<font color="#ffff00">Already plenty of parsings  out there that support us. And, I have two variables, damage, and then cast time. Thats all I need, thats all we can look at, and I suggest you reread Sokolov's and my original posts before saying we dont have data. We have combat attacks, we have melee, we can take all the info on combat attacks and thats what we have done. To say we dont have any data on this is saying sony doesnt have any data, so if sony never gave us data from masters etc we would never have data to work with ourselves.</font>Your on a witch hunt to bring others down to your level, when you should be on a crusade to add stuff to your class.. they wont add damage because they have the data you dont have.. but I bet if you crusaded for some decent utility for rangers, such as group buffs, or something that made you more useful than another class in some situations then you'd have more luck.<font color="#ffff00"> No where have I stated assassins need nerfing, no where have I stated that ranger dps should be above assassins, no where has sony stated rangers are a utility class. And, the second we get more utility we are taking away from summoners, rouges, enchanters, bards, tanks, priests etc. Currently there are supost to be 3 single target top dogs, ae ae top dog. Everything else scales downward from there, rangers are considered to be one of those top dogs, otherwise assassins would not be on that list either.</font></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bongotez wrote:<BR> this is an interresting looking post but too many numbers for me. math hurts my head. you should do one for wizard as well.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Work hurts my head.. Im already in enough pain thanks to you lazy bums <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i would have done something like this myself except i play for fun and numbers are not fun to me.

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> bongotez wrote: <div></div>this is an interresting looking post but too many numbers for me. math hurts my head. you should do one for wizard as well. <hr> </blockquote>Work hurts my head.. Im already in enough pain thanks to you lazy bums <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <hr> </blockquote>i would have done something like this myself except i play for fun and numbers are not fun to me.<hr></blockquote>I just get bored in EQ2 very quickly.. I was crafting or gathering when I was typing this out.. Having a [Removed for Content] laptop actually came in usefull, I just got bored.. As dead serious I can say this, I actually had fun writing it up.. I had even more fun after everything together it showed I was right afterall the ranger community actually doesnt suck its our set abilities! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>. In reality the damage diffrence is still somewhere around 25% though, once you take into account mark. <EM><STRONG>Assassins claim that mark contributes about 15%-30% of there dps.<BR></STRONG></EM><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, it's about 11% or so.  I can show you a hundred different parses if you want.<BR>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote:. In reality the damage diffrence is still somewhere around 25% though, once you take into account mark. <em><strong>Assassins claim that mark contributes about 15%-30% of there dps.</strong></em> <hr> </blockquote>No, it's about 11% or so.  I can show you a hundred different parses if you want.<hr></blockquote>Thats why we have two sets of data <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - sokolov's data has it at 12% - but thats also without mark or focus fire.</div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>07-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:30 PM</span>

[MystaSkrat]

<P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=15485#M15485" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=15485#M15485</A></P> <P> </P> <P>It doesn't have the pie chart at the bottom, but that's all of Lyceum and princes, chal'drak.  If you figure out the % of damage that Agonizing Pain is, it's 11.4.  It's almost always right at the 11% mark for me, but it's going to differ between different people, mainly because some people are going to be doing more things that do damage.  The less things you do, the more of your damage is going to be from your main skills.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Ok, further down that page, is my full zone parse of HoS.  Figure out the % of damage from Agonizing Pain: 11.5%</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by MystaSkratch on <span class=date_text>07-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:40 PM</span>

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV>Sorry Sirlutt. An Equally Equipped, Equally skilled, Equally Buffed Assasin will out DPS a ranger every fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isn't about nerfing assasins, it's about boosting rangers. Stop fear mongering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=15485#M15485" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=15485#M15485</a></p> <p>It doesn't have the pie chart at the bottom, but that's all of Lyceum and princes, chal'drak.  If you figure out the % of damage that Agonizing Pain is, it's 11.4.  It's almost always right at the 11% mark for me, but it's going to differ between different people, mainly because some people are going to be doing more things that do damage.  The less things you do, the more of your damage is going to be from your main skills.</p> <p><span class="time_text">Ok, further down that page, is my full zone parse of HoS.  Figure out the % of damage from Agonizing Pain: 11.5%</span></p><p>Message Edited by MystaSkratch on <span class="date_text">07-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:40 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>And sorry about my last post, I thought we were talking about dps not mark.. Its my bad, sokolov's data does show a 12% diffrence, mine shows a 15-30% diffrence.  Again, my bad for not taking the time to reread what you said earlier..</div>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not the one trying to compensate for something lacking .. i have no problems keeping up in parses with any of the classes on our raids.  I had no problems keeping up on T6 raids after rangers were fixed.  Waste your time putting together spreadsheets on all this if you like, its not going to change a single thing becaause you dont have all the data.  Sony has all the data.  They mine the logs daily and can see alot more than the sliver of data you represent.  Their data is across all servers, all types of game play.  They bumped Rangers once based on this data, and if they needed a bump based on that data they woudl dare say so it again.  Their data doesnt show things like player perceptions, and utility.  Both of which are against Rangers and are the issues you should be trying to address.<BR><BR>I dont have to provide any data, it'd be as useless as the data you provide on your nerf hunt.  Same str ?.. big deal, what about all the other factors.<BR><BR>I'd love to see the parses where your Rangers and Assassins are at 1400 and 2000 DPS AVERAGE .. not fancy spreadsheets with magical formulaes and pixie dust.. honest to goodnesst aggregated parses of named epic yellow/orange encounters.  Groups, singles, etc etc.  Show me that data.  Show me that data not just from you, and your assassins and wizards.. but from multiple guilds on mulitple servers across mulitple encounters.  See the scope creep there ?  You dont HAVE that data and so your numbers are useless.. try sollowing some scientific principles.. you have far too many variables and NO data gathered from the wild.<BR><BR>Your on a witch hunt to bring others down to your level, when you should be on a crusade to add stuff to your class.. they wont add damage because they have the data you dont have.. but I bet if you crusaded for some decent utility for rangers, such as group buffs, or something that made you more useful than another class in some situations then you'd have more luck.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not going to defend the charts in this thread or any other.  At best I beleive they simply give some insight into where some of the dps imbalance between rangers and assassins originates.  This post is really a response to the rather extraordinarily misinformed and inflammatory comments you've made.</P> <P>It boggles my mind that anyone, especially a former ranger, would even suggest that rangers should campaign for utility vs. dps.  We are a predator.  Assassins are predators.  But what tortured logic do you believe that rangers should in any way ask for utility to make up for our dps shortcomings compared to assassins?</P> <P>If we are a useless slot on a raid, then why aren't assassins an equally useless slot?  Simple answer:  assassins' dps.  It sure ain't assassins utility.  If ranger dps were made equivalent to that of assassins, which it should be by SoE's own class designs, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.</P> <P>You want multiple parses from multiple servers?  Fine.  Simply take a look at the 13 page thread in the Combat section of this board where rangers are identified as the most useless class on a raid <U><STRONG><EM>because of their lask of d</EM>ps</STRONG></U>.  That thread is posted on by members and leaders of some of the highest level guilds in EQ2.  They have done the parsing and they have reached the only conclusion possible...ranger dps is inadequate to justify having them in their guilds.</P> <P>As far your other post claiming that SoE "has the data and knows where ranger dps stands", don't make me laugh.  Assuming they do have the data, that doesn't mean they use it or would understand it if they did.  Is it too long ago for you to remember when they had no idea what dps rangers were doing in T6 and more importantly, why?  Is it so long ago that you don't remember them doing a series of trial and error changes to try to reduce ranger dps.  Is it so long ago that you forget that after they finally made the LU20 changes that they admitted having no idea that ranger dps was 50% proc-based?  The high end guilds in this game know far better than SoE what dps rangers can do relative to assassins and other classes.</P> <P>Lastly, I'm aware of NO ranger who has posted on these forums who has advocated that assassins or any other class should be nerfed in order to fix the current dps inferiority of rangers.  You can set that strawman up and knock it down all you want.  But it will have no bearing on the discussions concerning the real and demonstrated ranger dps problems on raids.<BR></P>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>Be a pally then say somethign about DPS and underpowered </DIV>

[MystaSkrat]

I didn't realize paladins were supposed to be dps lol

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>holypaladin2819 wrote:<div>Be a pally then say somethign about DPS and underpowered </div><hr></blockquote>Sure as hell hope this is a joke.</div>

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prandtl wrote:<BR> <P><BR></P> <P>I still believe that primary damage mode (ranged or melee) should play into this analysis for the reasons I mentioned in the previous thread.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Word it to something I can understand please, I dont understand what you mean. If your talking auto attack, thats invalid information because they are supost to be ballanced and the above data does not show any of that.<BR><BR>I probabbly dident comment on your pervious thread for not knowing what you mean..<BR><BR>And anyone who wants to post here please remember the saying "keep it simple stupid" - pointing at sokolov <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (just poking fun at you).<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Put simply:  compare Ranger CA's from ranged and Assassin CA's from melee.  We spend most of out time using our ranged CAs,  and only melee to continue doing damage while recast timers reset.  Assassins are usually in melee and move out to range to wait for timers to reset and avoid AOE's.</P> <P>from my previous post</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>- Rangers fight primarily at range.  They may melee/joust on occasion, but only while recast timers reset<BR>- Assassins fight in close and personal, and only drop to range while recast timers reset or a nasty AOE drops.<BR>I will ignore ranger melee and assassin ranged attacks from this point forward.  Please realize that this does not take into account cast timers, assassins having to stealth for their big hitters, long recast CA’s, and the myriad of other things that make each class unique.  Autoattack is not included, on the assumption that dual wield and ranged autoattack are of a similar magnitude.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Looking at your data like this shows assassins doing ~15% higher damage then a ranger</P>

[Sokolov]

My bad on Rain.  AoE damage should be lowered by 2094 as a result. And Lunging Thrust the screenshot I had culled it from showed it as a DoT - it has been since changed to a root. (It's possible other things are off if they have been tweaked like that, oh well, maybe I'll redo them later). <div></div>

[skylancer]

<P>Ya but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] we look good.</P> <P>Chicks dig Ranger's.</P> <P>But been parsing pretty well in lab and DT with;</P> <P>Cover fire, devit., 5 sec pause, focus, surveil, selection, Rain... spam CA's, spinning spear, spam melee CA's.... etc...</P> <P><IMG src="http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7166/pathfinder2az0.jpg"></P>