A Modest Proposal

[Prandtl]

<DIV>  There has been much discussion here and in other forums lately about ranger dps lagging behind other classes in raids. This is due to many factors, including double attacks for fighter classes, lower damage weapons, and long recast timers.  No matter what the cause, the net result is that rangers have little if any role on high level end game raids that could not be fulfilled more ably and with better utility by another class. <BR>  Unfortunately most potential fixes would involve potentially upsetting the delicate balance between classes:<BR>Giving rangers a double attack would potentially make us overpowering again, and removing that option would be a hard nerf to other classes.<BR>Increasing damage ratings on bows would cause the gap to increase, since the other classes would have the same weapon, which now double attacks at a higher damage rating.<BR>Decreasing cast and/or reuse timers is an extremely difficult effect to quantify, and would potentially effect every class in the game.  And could still be overpowering or underwhelming, depending on the implementation.</DIV> <DIV>  This is my first suggestion to the dev’s, and probably my last since they seem to have little if any effect on the game anyways; I just thought I would toss it out there for commentary and criticism.  But if the devs implement it all our problems would swiftly go away!<BR>  My suggestion is to scale our ranged autoattack damage off the seldom noticed and pretty much useless stat of +ranged.  Up to now ranged has only determined weather or not we could hit a mob and has no effect on the damage.  Also, rangers are the only class that can raise their ranged stat without gear, using our offensive stance and focus lines.  Our offensive stance would essentially add an autoattack damage bonus if we are at ranged, and focus would add burst dps for 10 seconds, much as it does for crit chances.  Off the top of my head, arrow frenzy buffs my ranged +37 and focus jumps it 97.<BR>  As an example, lets assume an average autoattack shot of 1000.  This just an example, not a real value for me.  If we assume that each point of +ranged adds 1% to damage, then<BR>“baseline” shot<BR>+Ranged      actual damage<BR>0                   1000<BR>10                 1100<BR>20                 1200<BR>30                 1300   etc<BR>If we drop down to 0.5% per +ranged<BR>0                   1000<BR>10                 1050<BR>20                 1100<BR>30                 1150   etc<BR>  Not a huge increase in damage per shot, but as haste is added into the equation the damage would begin to ramp up.  Potential damage is capped by the haste cap of 100%.  Looking at situations, damage change would be maximized in a raid situation, when the ranger would probably be hasted and str buffed to the max.  In groups it would be a fair bit less, since the buffs would not be as extensive.  Soloing the effects would only be felt on the initial pull, if at all, since offensive stance while soloing is often a recipe for a visit to the mender.<BR>  This benefit could be used by other classes as well if they equipped +ranged gear, but is intended primarily to rebalance us without resorting to procs or nerfing other classes. <BR>  What do you guys think of this?  Its a poorly written post and I doubt if something like this would ever be implemented, but its nice to daydream of being swift again..<BR></DIV>

[Jayad]

<P>There's a lot of ways DPS could be improved.  But first we have to convince the devs that there is a problem.  Because DPS is so hard to quantify, or rather, circumstances are so variable, it's very difficult to prove a case.  Also, with a new expansion coming out, they may very well want to not change anything major until they've seen how those new features impact things. </P> <P>I think our best strategy is to focus on a few obvious issues rather than trying to convince SOE that our overall dps is an issue.  Things like the level 65 bird being useless, DR on bows, and ammo cost.  Or the lack of something like assassin's mark - how can we be equal without a great art like that to assassins?</P>

[Nak]

That would screw up everyone of SoE's bizarro formula's New idea of the day that will never be seen happening! Put in a lvl 67 CA that gives a 6% chance at app 2, 7% at app 3, 8% at app 4, 9% at ad 1, 12% at adept 3, and 15% at master 1 to proc a double ranged auto attack...yeah that'd fix some problems without overpowering [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] <div></div>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<DIV>Are you kidding me? A double strike on our bow would be nuts, even at any percentage. Given at during a raid my bow typically hits for 2k or higher, and quite often crits around 4k, that would just be insane..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't think of a plausible fix for rangers that are lacking in DPS, because I don't feel we're that lacking.</DIV>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>xMiLoSiSx wrote:<div>Are you kidding me? A double strike on our bow would be nuts, even at any percentage. Given at during a raid my bow typically hits for 2k or higher, and quite often crits around 4k, that would just be insane..</div><hr></blockquote>Other classes are already doing this... why shouldn't we?  They should change the run speed component on Cloak of the Forest to a double attack percentage.</div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class=date_text>07-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:14 PM</span>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Are you kidding me? A double strike on our bow would be nuts, even at any percentage. Given at during a raid my bow typically hits for 2k or higher, and quite often crits around 4k, that would just be insane..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't think of a plausible fix for rangers that are lacking in DPS, because I don't feel we're that lacking.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Rangers are not lacking in "raw dps".  They are lacking in comparative dps.  That's rangers compared  to other classes and what they can do in properly constructed raid groups.</P> <P>I personally would like to see Focus Aim replaced by a double attack chance for a duration longer than the 10 seconds focus aim currently lasts.  The duration and the chance of double attacking would obvioulsy have to be tuned to achieve the right net dps increase that we need.</P> <P>Adding such a double attack chance wouldn't be overpowering at all.</P> <P>P.S.  Exaggerated and/or fanciful statements such as "<EM>Given at during a raid my bow typically hits for 2k or higher, and quite often crits around 4k</EM>" don't help much.  :smileymad:</P>

[Nak]

<div></div>Well, my intention was to have the % actually a lot less like 1% to 7% at master 1, but i figured i'd be nice since it only has a chance to proc on auto attacks which would be every say 5 seconds depending on people's haste ( longer or slower) Basic idea 10 arrows with a 10% chance to proc = 10 x 2500 = 25000 = total dmg from 10 auto attacks  5 seconds to shoot x 10 arrows = 50 seconds to shoot depending on haste. 25000/50 = 500 dps 11 x 25 (saying one of 10 arrows double attacked ) = 27500 = total dmg from 10 auto attacks 5 seconds per arrow x 10 arrows = 50 seconds to shoot depending on haste. 27500/50 = 550 dps on auto attack However, due to proc formula's a 10% chance on a bow would seem more like going off 40% of the time 14 x 25 = 35000 / 50 = 700 dps and that would be the basic 100-200 dps dmg increase that would make up for rangers to equal out with assassins... that 2500 is just a factored average of crits and minimum hits on a debuffed mob while having dps mods from other classes such as coercer, dirge, bruiser ect...solo you would probably see somewhere in the range of 600-1200 with crits and 0 dps mods On a side note, as for your sig "searching for a home" if your looking for a raiding guild good luck because a lot of those guilds out there disagree with your 3rd sentence and won't want a ranger  <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Naku9 on <span class=date_text>07-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 PM</span>

[Prandtl]

<P>I wanted to be independent of the proc "dice roll" on this suggestion.  The +ranged that occurs in focus and arrow frenzy happens naturally with level progression.  Also it  rewards getting ad3 or masters of the buffs but does not shut out those who cant afford them (like me!)  It is essentially a "gain" or "volume knob" on autoattack dps that can be tuned up and down by, with an "amplifier" in the form of focus fire.</P> <P>No changes to CA's needed.  Just a single line of code</P> <P>damage = damage * ( 1 + plus_ranged / 100)</P>

[Nak]

If they did what you want for + range to be 100 dmg per point, auto attacks would be doing  over 50k dmg essentially if you had a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load of + ranged such as focus fire and natural instinct lol and if they ever did that you'd see the same thing for all + slashing, + crushing, and + peircing...so everyone can do 50000 dps ftw! <div></div>

[Prandtl]

<P>I think you confused the "+" in the equation for the +ranged.  I called that plus_ranged</P> <P>for example, if a shot was for 1000 and your ranged bonus was 37, the shot would hit for 1370</P>

[Recca[BK]]

only problem with the + ranged is you would have to add + peircing and such to all classes making this futile since it would just boost all melee classes. double attack isnt going to happen guys, thats pretty obvious. your focus aim is near equal to our mark line, it should be 15 sec instead of 10 imo, but that is a huge dps booster for you. 2 real issues need to be looked at the state of stream of arrows, making that actually usable again would boost you. and the hawk. hate siphoning isnt need for you. a replacement might be good, or just fix the stealth breakin and boost its dmg.

[Kelader]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Recca[BK] wrote:<BR>only problem with the + ranged is you would have to add + peircing and such to all classes making this futile since it would just boost all melee classes. <BR><BR>double attack isnt going to happen guys, thats pretty obvious. your focus aim is near equal to our mark line, it should be 15 sec instead of 10 imo, but that is a huge dps booster for you. <BR><BR><FONT color=#00cc00>2 real issues need to be looked at the state of stream of arrows, making that actually usable again would boost you. and the hawk. hate siphoning isnt need for you.</FONT> a replacement might be good, or just fix the stealth breakin and boost its dmg.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think this is the real issue.  I have limited interest in being dependent on auto attack for an increase to bring us up to par.  Rangers spend so much on arrows because we are so dependent upon auto attack for our dps.  I would rather see our spells improved.  Hawk Dive is an answer to a problem we don't have.  It does reduce aggro - primarly be slashing our dps since we cant use any attacks that require invis while the bird is up. This was a miss by the devs.  I would like to see the spell replaced with something that contributes to our dps and (unlike auto attack) is not dependent on arrow quality.<BR>

[Prandtl]

<P>yes, this suggestion is no help what so ever to the arrow cost problem.  In fact it probably aggrivates it.</P> <P>The fix for that is makeshift arrows being an every 10 level art that we get at lvl 20 and and upgrade every 10 levels after that.  Honestly there should be a lvl 70 makeshift CA that produced T8 arrows. Just as there should be a respective lvl 60, 50, 40, etc.  This is one spot where everyone really missed the boat.</P>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prandtl wrote:<BR> <P>yes, this suggestion is no help what so ever to the arrow cost problem.  In fact it probably aggrivates it.</P> <P>The fix for that is makeshift arrows being an every 10 level art that we get at lvl 20 and and upgrade every 10 levels after that.  Honestly there should be a lvl 70 makeshift CA that produced T8 arrows. Just as there should be a respective lvl 60, 50, 40, etc.  This is one spot where everyone really missed the boat.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe some of us don't see arrow cost as being as much a problem as you do.  You only need other than makeshift/reclaimed arrows on raids.  I (or my guild) would gladly pay the costs of purchased arrows if ranger dps was made equivalent to assassin dps.

[Rahmn]

Right now I'm fairly satisfied with my dps(more is always better though), if someone would just do something about arrow cost or let makeshift arrows net us a whole lot more so we dont need to pay nearly 7silver per arrow at T7.<div></div>

[Katsugen]

<DIV>1) Allow auto atk during Stream of Arrows </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Skill is potentially useful again as decent dps while other recast reset. Might also be good in conjunction w/ Hawk Dive as they have similar duration and SoA requires no stealth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Slight reduction in Focus Aim recast timer </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Allows for for less waiting for when we want to cycle through our CA's again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Change Hawk Dive to absorb agro instead of sipheoning and dastically increase the %</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Almost like a "Dispatch" for agro. Absorbs massives amounts of agro from other classes. Can be called out in raid, and allows high agro, high dps classes to really unload, providing good utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Summon Arrows is a skill we get every Tier, it summons 1 stack every 5mins at master1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rangers will not need to rely on crafted/store bought arrows. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats what I'd like to see. I think that would take care of 90% of my compliants (gotta leave some room to complain)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Katsugen </DIV><p>Message Edited by Katsugen on <span class=date_text>07-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 AM</span>

[TerriBlades]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As far as Stream of Arrows goes, I dont see them ever improving this CA. It is after all a DoF Ancient Teachings. It was nice when we got it, but much like snipers shot, I dont see them doing any upgrades to this.</P> <P> </P> <P>Rather then see a slight reduction in the cast timer ( would be nice if the refresh started AFTER it was cast, rather then after it ran its course ) I would much rather see the duration extended, even if it were for only 5 seconds more. I could just about unload every worthwhile ranged CA I have in that amount of time. And by tweaking it so that the refresh started right after the cast, it would definately become even more useful then it already is.</P> <P>As far as Hawk Dive is concerned. This is by and large the single WORST tool we have. I suppose some would argue that its great for the solo ranger, but I, however am not a solo ranger, I raid. So with that in mind, I never... ever use this. Not because I cant, but because its flat out useless. This could easily be replaced with a combat art, that would kick a bit more DPS in our general direction, without overpowering the class. But for the moment, back to Hawk Dive.... I can not recall the last time that I accidently pulled aggro off the MT at a raid while he was still alive. You really have to be doing something silly (firing off Snipers on the pull) to pull aggro these days. Other then that.. Rangers can pretty much FULL BURN and not even think twice about it.</P> <P> </P> <P>As for the summon arrow lines, it would be very nice to see this spell, at least at a master level summon a full stack rather then a half stack of arrows. It wont completely free everyone from the burden of buying more arrows, but it would help cut those costs. as would say 75 arrows at Adept3, 50 or 60 at Adept 1. You get the picture.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Katsugen]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TerriBlades wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>As far as Stream of Arrows goes, I dont see them ever improving this CA. It is after all a DoF Ancient Teachings. It was nice when we got it, but much like snipers shot, I dont see them doing any upgrades to this.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Rather then see a slight reduction in the cast timer ( would be nice if the refresh started AFTER it was cast, rather then after it ran its course ) I would much rather see the duration extended, even if it were for only 5 seconds more. I could just about unload every worthwhile ranged CA I have in that amount of time. And by tweaking it so that the refresh started right after the cast, it would definately become even more useful then it already is.</P> <P>As far as Hawk Dive is concerned. This is by and large the single WORST tool we have. I suppose some would argue that its great for the solo ranger, but I, however am not a solo ranger, I raid. So with that in mind, I never... ever use this. Not because I cant, but because its flat out useless. This could easily be replaced with a combat art, that would kick a bit more DPS in our general direction, without overpowering the class. <FONT color=#ffff33>But for the moment, back to Hawk Dive.... I can not recall the last time that I accidently pulled aggro off the MT at a raid while he was still alive. You really have to be doing something silly (firing off Snipers on the pull) to pull aggro these days. Other then that.. Rangers can pretty much FULL BURN and not even think twice about it.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>As for the summon arrow lines, it would be very nice to see this spell, at least at a master level summon a full stack rather then a half stack of arrows. It wont completely free everyone from the burden of buying more arrows, but it would help cut those costs. as would say 75 arrows at Adept3, 50 or 60 at Adept 1. You get the picture.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>My point for SoA is that it is useless and I never use it. If our auto atk could go off between the SoA atks then I would definitely use it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Hawk Dive, it's not MY agro thats a problem its everyone elses. It currently sipheons other ppl's agro too. My point is to make it absorb and not sipheon so it can take more agro from other classes w/o getting us killed. Increasing the % allows other classes to go all out and not pull instant agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Katsugen<BR></DIV>

[Nak]

My next proposal is that instead of everyone posting their own proposal on their seperate threads each covering a slightly different but similar idea they just add it to a currently on going thread as of right now there has to be at least 50+ threads each with the same or similar topic... <div></div>

[Katsugen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naku9 wrote:<BR>My next proposal is that instead of everyone posting their own proposal on their seperate threads each covering a slightly different but similar idea they just add it to a currently on going thread<BR><BR>as of right now there has to be at least 50+ threads each with the same or similar topic...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's not a bad idea. But those threads get long real fast and alot of ideas get lost in the pages. If ppl kept it short and sweet, and saved comments and debate for a different thread I think the community could get a good list going. And who knows maybe if we keep it clean and striaght forward it might get a little attention.</P> <P>-Katsugen</P>