Is Sniper's shot underpowered?

[littleman17]

<DIV>Before you guys jump on my case, I am not talking about the damage it can do. I've seen level 70 rangers crit this art (and combined with a proc from stance and bow) upwards near 10k. Even with perfectionist, we can still only use it once every 10 minutes...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is under powered cause of the recast timer... 15 god darn minutes?! Wizards, Warlocks, Assassins, Brigs and Swashies all can do the same amount of dmg with 1-3 CA and then turn around and do it again in like 45 seconds...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny thing is how simple the spell is to fix so that it is more usefull than just to be used on a tough boss.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lower the recast timer down to five minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make it so that it can not be blocked/parried or deflected... nor can it miss. It a Wizzies ice nova is resisted they can use it again in what... 20 seconds? If we miss or the attack gets avoided, we have to wait 15 minutes to try again... and let's face it, 99% of mobs are dead (even raid) within 5 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't tell you how many dps classes have laughed their [Removed for Content] off at me when I have told then about Sniper's. Sure they are impressed at the dmg, but then they ask about the recast... that is when they fall out of their chairs laughing. the recast makes the skill useless in 90% of encounters... *sigh*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what does everyone think?</DIV>

[Recca[BK]]

hmm i would love to know what CA my assassin has that does 10k every 45 sec. its not underpowered in the least. assasssins have the same thing decap is a 15 min timer. that is not supposed to be your bulk dps spell. its more of a fun spell imo. every 10 or 15 min we get a nice spike of dmg. wizzy get the 45 recast because they do not get autoattack dmg. they need the short recast on their nukes to attain the high dps we do not.

[Jayad]

Sniper's shot is not equivalent to ice comet/nova or assassinate/decaptitate.   Storm of Arrows/Rain of Arrows is and you can do 25k+ with it.  Every 3 minutes (or 2 minutes).

[wvorster]

<div></div><font color="#ccff00" face="Verdana" size="3"></font><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffffff">Xney wrote:</font><font color="#ffffff"></font><font color="#ffffff">Sniper's shot is not equivalent to ice comet/nova or assassinate/decaptitate.   Storm of Arrows/Rain of Arrows is and you can do 25k+ with it.  Every 3 minutes (or 2 minutes).</font><hr></blockquote><font color="#ccff00" size="3">Not on single targets ... Perhaps increase the damage on Rain of Arrows to ~ 5 - 7.5k ( Fusion ) as well and bump Sniper to ~ 7 - 9k ( Decap / IC )</font><font color="#ccff00" face="Verdana" size="3"></font><font color="#ccff00" face="Verdana" size="3"></font><b><i><font color="#ccff00" face="Verdana" size="4">Andariel 70th Ranger - Darathar</font></i></b><font color="#ccff00" face="Verdana" size="3"></font><div></div>

[Merkad]

Perhaps because I have a master Sniper Shot, but mine says just about 8k on the high end. I have ~400ish strength. Considering we have the focus line, and high ranged crit chance AA, we can usually get crits with this skill. My current HH is 16,143 damage, and that is without Perfectionist (still 8 aas to go), granted, that is raid buffed/mob debuffed, and decently geared.Not saying I would not like it to be up more often, I would, that and Rain both. Actually, i want my AEs up more often more than anything.. man I cannot stand it when people are pulling so fast I have no AEs to use on groups, and my DPS looks pathetic that round. Some faster recast CAs..a real conundrum there.. increased DPS, but also increased power usage/arrow expenditure (not that that cannot be easily solved.. but I am not about to give SOE the benefit of doubt again (hey I played EQLive as well, I have gave enough.Anyways, just saying imo, there are more pressing matters, and it is a skill that is 12 levels old.Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

[Blarth]

Sniper shot is not underpowered in most aspects. The only part of your arguement that i agree with is that is should not be avoidable. Wizards have a 45 sec recast timer on Ice Nova. They pay for this though in their ability to take a hit and also that if the consistantly use Ice Nova and Fusion they will die quickly. Assassins have Assassinate/Decapitate while we have Sniper Shot. These are in essense the same skill. They both have a long recast timer of 15 minutes. Sniper Shot has a much long cast timer compared to Decapitate. The major difference between these two skills is the tier in which they lie. Originally Assassins had the only one shot kill in t5, Dof went live and Sniper Shot was introduced along with continuations of skill lines. With KoS SOE felt it didnt need to make up completely new skills cept 1, Hawk Dive(semi-useful). They decided to just continue on with skill lines. Because Assassinate was out of date as a lvl 50 skill, they upgraded it at lvl 70. All this really does is show the flip floping of top dps among predators. DoF was rangers, now KoS is assassins. Hopefully it will swap with the next expansion or the one after it. As for actual damage it can still hold its own in high damage skills. The key to it is str buffs. At Master 1 with max str it only goes up to 9798. With the use of focus aim and aa lines you can get it to crit with 12k. The secret to getting the really high hits is to time it along with other debuffs. Currently my high hit is 17908 and most of the other people that beat me are assassins. <div></div>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Recca[BK] wrote:hmm i would love to know what CA my assassin has that does 10k every 45 sec. its not underpowered in the least. assasssins have the same thing decap is a 15 min timer. that is not supposed to be your bulk dps spell. its more of a fun spell imo. every 10 or 15 min we get a nice spike of dmg. wizzy get the 45 recast because they do not get autoattack dmg. they need the short recast on their nukes to attain the high dps we do not.<hr></blockquote>So would I... What CA are YOU talking about?</div>

[NovacaineExpre]

<DIV>Sniper Shot is very underpowered IMO.  Sniper casting time = 5.0 secs vs Assassin's Decap = 0.5 secs for more damage.  Even if you hit 10K on sniper that roughly equates to 2K DPS (not including any forms of casting timers increase) vs. Decapitate at 10K (usually higher) = 20K DPS.  But we are talking about 2 different tiers of ca's.  Sniper Shot is what? lvl 55? (cant remember) and Decap is lvl 70.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And not to mention, with Sniper Shot casting timer so long if you are in any type of big AE fight its almost to risky to attempt a sniper shot.  There is nothing worse than going into stealth, starting up Sniper Shot casting timer to have it haulted after 3 secs of casting it :smileymad:</DIV>

[Rinio]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NovacaineExpress wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sniper Shot is very underpowered IMO.  Sniper casting time = 5.0 secs vs Assassin's Decap = 0.5 secs for more damage.  Even if you hit 10K on sniper that roughly equates to 2K DPS (not including any forms of casting timers increase) vs. Decapitate at 10K (usually higher) = 20K DPS.  But we are talking about 2 different tiers of ca's.  Sniper Shot is what? lvl 55? (cant remember) and Decap is lvl 70.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And not to mention, with Sniper Shot casting timer so long if you are in any type of big AE fight its almost to risky to attempt a sniper shot.  There is nothing worse than going into stealth, starting up Sniper Shot casting timer to have it haulted after 3 secs of casting it :smileymad:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed. sucks when you have to take time to stealth and then all our stealth skills have much longer cast times then others, which kills our dps the most every second your stuck in stealth longer then an assassin you lose out on all that auto attack damage. </DIV>

[leafnin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Recca[BK] wrote:<BR>hmm i would love to know what CA my assassin has that does 10k every 45 sec. its not underpowered in the least. assasssins have the same thing decap is a 15 min timer. that is not supposed to be your bulk dps spell. its more of a fun spell imo. every 10 or 15 min we get a nice spike of dmg. wizzy get the 45 recast because they do not get autoattack dmg. they need the short recast on their nukes to attain the high dps we do not.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually it is.  5 sec casting time compared to a .5 casting time strung together with your other high hitting arts (Killing Blow for example)  makes Sniper's shot a poor choice to use in attempting to keep up with your DPS.  Casting times are killers.  Lowering the cast time to three secs would make the art much more attractive in my eyes. </P> <P> </P> <P>Falcon/Peregrian </P>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<DIV>Snipershot is not underpowered due to the teir of it's origin..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although our big nuke is underpowered.. you can definitely say that, and for the 5sec cast time I almost find it not worth it, because even with the 22% crit modifier from my AA, I hardly see it crit. (AD3 base hit  4.2-7k, base strength 436...)</DIV>

[LordAng]

<P>If they made Sniper shot too much better rangers would own on both single target and multi-target encounters. Rain of arrows is king, and its even a nice bonus on single target mobs. </P> <P>EX: assuming all cast timers are what they are according to the skill description, Decapitate is capable of doing 25k every 15 mins. Rain of Arrows is capable of doing 6K every 3 minutes. (these are max damages. a 25K decap is considering the ability is M1 and it crits, same with Rain of Arrows, mine is M1 and crits int he 7k range frequently) Now for a little math</P> <P>15 mins / 3 mins = 5</P> <P>5 X 6k = 30k</P> <P>I'll keep Rain of Arrows, thanks. Not to mention that if you have it crit on a 10 mob encounter on even one of those fights, your doing somewhere in the ballpark of 40-50k, putting both Ice Nova and Decapitate to shame. I look at Sniper Shot as a nice bonus in the ranger arsenal, i dont need it really, i can average 1.4k-1.9k dps on raid mobs without it, its just an extra attack to use on named mobs. Just keep in mind that for every 1 attack an assasin has, we have a matching one that does lower damage and refreshes faster.  Personally i dont like waiting around all fight for 3-5 min recast abilities to pop up, i like to go go go. and as far as wizards, Ice Nova is a blast as long as they got a troub in their group and their tank rocks. it can only be used a few times during a fight max and very carefully because of the lack of aggro management skills.</P>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<DIV>Well, keeping on track with the discussion, we were discussing the differences between ours, and our predator brethrens single target nukes, and the value we get out of each for our 15 minutes wait time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins get an equivalent to rain of arrows, although I don't remember it's specifications.</DIV><p>Message Edited by xMiLoSiSx on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 AM</span>

[LordAng]

<DIV>Rain of Arrows is the premier ranger ability just as Decapitate is the premeir assasin ability. those are the equivalents. there is no uber assasin AE. in fact ive never seen an assasin parse remotely well in an AE fight</DIV>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<DIV>Those are our unique class abilities, yes, but as far as big hit, long reuse nukes go, Sniper and Decap are the ones we look at. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By equivalent I meant timer and damage range, I think it's just single target...?</DIV>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>I still do not understand how people can still equate Rain with Decapitate.  WHile I like Rain and have it at Master 1, it is not equivalent to Decapitate.  How many group mobs do we actually fight?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sniper is single target as is Decapitate.  I see the equivalency there.  Rain is an AE CA.  You may have your opinions on the usefulness of sniper but to discount it because "we get rain at 70" is silly <EM>in my opinion</EM>.   I admit it, I like the big shot.  I like seeing a huge number.  But Decapitate can beat my critted shot even with a non crit.  Look at the high hits on your server, the ones after the bug fix.  Who is at the top?  Every assassin.  I am on Blackburrows list with a 16,683 at position 37.  Almost every assassin in Bane is ahead of me.  Of the top 10, 9 are assassins and one is a ranger (not sure when that 64K hit was made but I am assuming it was before the bug fix that allowed those).  Just once I would like to break 20K.  Looking at some of the names on the list, I think the majority of those 11-36 are assassins too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have hit for almost 9K critting on a rain shot, but dangit, I want to drop that big bomb arrow.  If you want to be satisfied with Rain as your "big hit" on trash mobs, thats cool, but give me a better sniper shot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDITED   Just checked.  32 of the top 37 are Assassins.  Wow.</DIV><p>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>At level 50 you get your premier class spell.  That is Storm of Arrows for Rangers, and Assassinate for Assassins.  They get upgrades at 70, like all classes get their special level 50 spell upgraded.  Sniper's shot *did not exist* until DOF.  I'm glad they gave us a big nuke, it's our only really useful ancient teachings spell, in t6 or t7.</P> <P>You guys are too mesmerized by the "big flashy number".  Rain of Arrows does *far* more damage over an entire raid than does the assassin one - you can use it every 2 minutes (with perfectionist)!! Sure, they get a big single nuke for the nameds, but so what?  That's their speciality.  Our speciality, compared to the assassin one, is we get to do massive AE damage.  It's also a decent single target nuke, although not as nice as decapitate, of course, in that sense. </P> <P>So you don't get the high hit on the named, who cares?  When you parse an entire raid zone, if you use Rain every time it's up, you will have done a lot more damage with Rain than the assassin will have with theirs.   Many raid encounters have 2-3 or more mobs in it and for those it will hit for more.  It also refreshes 5 times as fast, so even if you just hit single targets, it will do about the same!   In return for that, assassins can hit a big mobs really hard when they want to, better than we can.</P> <P>I do agree the casting time on sniper's shot is ridiculous, but I think the whole set of ranged CAs have silly casting times vs. the melee ones.</P>

[LordAng]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV>I still do not understand how people can still equate Rain with Decapitate.  WHile I like Rain and have it at Master 1, it is not equivalent to Decapitate.  How many group mobs do we actually fight?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sniper is single target as is Decapitate.  I see the equivalency there.  Rain is an AE CA.  You may have your opinions on the usefulness of sniper but to discount it because "we get rain at 70" is silly <EM>in my opinion</EM>.   I admit it, I like the big shot.  I like seeing a huge number.  But Decapitate can beat my critted shot even with a non crit.  Look at the high hits on your server, the ones after the bug fix.  Who is at the top?  Every assassin.  I am on Blackburrows list with a 16,683 at position 37.  Almost every assassin in Bane is ahead of me.  Of the top 10, 9 are assassins and one is a ranger (not sure when that 64K hit was made but I am assuming it was before the bug fix that allowed those).  Just once I would like to break 20K.  Looking at some of the names on the list, I think the majority of those 11-36 are assassins too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have hit for almost 9K critting on a rain shot, but dangit, I want to drop that big bomb arrow.  If you want to be satisfied with Rain as your "big hit" on trash mobs, thats cool, but give me a better sniper shot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDITED   Just checked.  32 of the top 37 are Assassins.  Wow.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <SPAN class=date_text>07-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>if you wanted the big hits, youre playing the wrong class.</P> <P>for me, DPS is DPS. i dont care if i have a ton of little hits that add up to the bigs hits, i just wanna get there. personally i like the smaller attacks, it gives me more to do, makes hte class more fun</P><p>Message Edited by LordAngus on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

[Serventof Wrath]

<P>Yes we have underpowered CAs they are Stream of Arrows (a.k.a. random afk button), precise (a.k.a. crap i just wasted 2 arrows), and triple (a.k.a. crap there went 3 arrows I really should take that off the hot bar).</P> <P>Last weekend raid buffed, mob debuffed, fighting Alzid Prime in LoV.  I hit Sniper, Veiled, and Rain back to back to back and had crits of 12k, 8k, and 7k sorry thats 27k damage with a quickness.  I can't say those arts are underpowered.  And you can say whatever you like about Sniper should hit harder cause its on a 15 minute timer but in all honesty thats a lvl 58 CA hitting a LVL 74 x4 raid mob for 12k and I've had it harder.</P> <P>If you want to fix our underpowered CAs great.  I'm all for it.</P> <P>Let Steam of Arrows hit for autoranged damage</P> <P>Let Precise and Triple hit for autoranged damage with a damage multiplier for the 2nd and 3rd arrow like:</P> <P><EM> base damage x1.5 for the 2nd arrow and x2 for the third at adept 1</EM>.</P> <P>Fix the arts that are underpowered leave Sniper alone.</P>

[USAFJeeper]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordAngus wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>if you wanted the big hits, youre playing the wrong class.</P> <P>for me, DPS is DPS. i dont care if i have a ton of little hits that add up to the bigs hits, i just wanna get there. personally i like the smaller attacks, it gives me more to do, makes hte class more fun</P> <P>Message Edited by LordAngus on <SPAN class=date_text>07-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:06 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry but I am NOT playing the wrong class,  We are about big hits.  If Rain is equivalent to Decapitate why the longer refresh on Decapitate?  Why is it the same as Sniper?  Why is it called the most lethal attack in the rangers arsenal on the description if it is not?  I am not asking for any attacks to be taken away, I just want my big shot to really be a big shot.  Not a tier 6 leftover. </P> <P> And most raid encounters are not groups.  Even assuming for the moment that they are, how many times even with perfectionist can you get it off?  I will answer, once.  And I dont think the average encounter is 5, its more like 3 <EM>when</EM> it is multiple.  I assume Amend moves through most raids as fast as we do, so I can tell you at least half the fights, rain is not ready to go again, even with perfectionist.</P> <P>So, lets get rid of the strawman you threw up about my being in the wrong class and the number of little hits.  The truth is that Snipers shot is a lot more similar to Decapitate than Rain and the two are vastly different in the damage they do.  THey are the same in reuse timer, target etc.  The ONLY thing thats the same between Rain and Decap, is that you get both at 70.</P> <P>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <SPAN class=date_text>07-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:29 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 PM</span>

[Nak]

get perfectionist, having it up every 10 minutes or less depending on buffs + 15% dmg increase while also taking a similar benefit to rain of arrows is nice....but no one believes me and says you have to have max ranged crists <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div>

[leafnin]

<DIV>Decap is just a nice thing to have every 15 mins for them helps with their burst DPS.  However they relie more on the mark line and their two lesser known high damage arts that equal and easily exceed the Storm/Rain line in most single encounters. Decap, Killing Blade (3 min recast), are affected by perfectionist.  What's the cast on Rain 2 secs?  They can get off Decap, Killing Blade, and Eviserate in 3 secs.  three attacks to one  for well over 40K to one target granted.  That's not counting the intangibles (poison, gear, crits, DOTs, etc).  Short trash AoE fights we're good...but who really cares about DPS on those type of raid targets??  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Falcon/Peregrian</DIV>

[Blarth]

<blockquote><hr>Naku9 wrote:get perfectionist, having it up every 10 minutes or less depending on buffs + 15% dmg increase while also taking a similar benefit to rain of arrows is nice....but no one believes me and says you have to have max ranged crists <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree.  Agi line should be 4/4/4/5/8 and Str line should be 4/4/4/4/8. You have no clue how much Perfectionist helps unless you have it. Rain of Arrows is unbelieveable powerful with this. Rangers are in essence nukers. We are the scout version of the Wizard whereas the Assassin is the scout version of the Warlock. Currently Assassins and Warlocks kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in raids because they hit the mob a LOT. Assassins have short casting timers but most of their hits arent nearly as powerful as ours are.  While they are poking the mob a lot we are taking a big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing blunt/sharp object and beating the crap out of the mob. If you look at the actual number of hits compared to that of how much damage you do, it turns out we hit harder on a consistant basis. The only reason that assassins beat us is while we are casting Veiled Fire which will hit for 3k or so an assassin is able to get off multiple attacks that eventually hit for 4k. Also if you look at progressive parse during the fight you will see that the ranger should always start out as the number one spot, the others dont hit nearly as hard to begin with but they catch up quick. The biggest problem, like wizards, is that we dont have nearly the sustainable dps that assassin/warlock has. Back to the issue, Sniper Shot and Rain of Arrows are just two more of our massive hits. Reducing the timers on these will make you kick so much more [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<div></div>

[LordAng]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry but I am NOT playing the wrong class,  We are about big hits.  If Rain is equivalent to Decapitate why the longer refresh on Decapitate?  Why is it the same as Sniper?  Why is it called the most lethal attack in the rangers arsenal on the description if it is not?  I am not asking for any attacks to be taken away, I just want my big shot to really be a big shot.  Not a tier 6 leftover. </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>at no point did i say rain was the SAME as decapitate, i said that they were both the premeir skills of the classes. both skills were given at lvl 50, it was THE special ability. just like everything on a ranger in comparison to an assasin, we have smaller damage and faster recasts. it seems that SOE gave us sniper as something fun to have during DoF and if you remeber correctly, by doing that, SOE made rangers better than assasins at the one thing assasins had going for them during DoF, big hits.</P> <P>Im not gonna argue that Sniper shot isnt fun, it is but its not a game-breaking ability for a ranger, hence the 5 second casting time, which is obviously designed to keep us from doing huge damage that assasins are designed for. at the moment i think assasins and rangers are pretty well balanced. its not often an assasin outparses me... usually every 15 mins or so, and i dont need sniper shot to keep up in a fight.</P> <P>and as far as rain of arrows, EVEN IF you are using it on single mobs every 3 mins, you still are going to have a higher total damage output than one decapitate... think about that. Id rather have an ability i can use 5 times that adds up to 30k damage than one attack that i can use once and does 25k (see previous post pertaining to math).</P> <P>Id rather not be a class that depends on sitting around till the big attacks pop up on their long timers to do dps which is the inevitable trade-off if you want big attacks. Sniper Shot is not gamebreaking, its a bonus really and i like it that way. I wouldnt expect SOE to hand me the sun and the moon on a silver platter. <BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[LordAng]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blarth wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naku9 wrote:<BR>get perfectionist, having it up every 10 minutes or less depending on buffs + 15% dmg increase while also taking a similar benefit to rain of arrows is nice....but no one believes me and says you have to have max ranged crists <SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree.  Agi line should be 4/4/4/5/8 and Str line should be 4/4/4/4/8. You have no clue how much Perfectionist helps unless you have it. Rain of Arrows is unbelieveable powerful with this.<BR><BR>Rangers are in essence nukers. We are the scout version of the Wizard whereas the Assassin is the scout version of the Warlock. Currently Assassins and Warlocks kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in raids because they hit the mob a LOT. Assassins have short casting timers but most of their hits arent nearly as powerful as ours are.  While they are poking the mob a lot we are taking a big [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing blunt/sharp object and beating the crap out of the mob. If you look at the actual number of hits compared to that of how much damage you do, it turns out we hit harder on a consistant basis. The only reason that assassins beat us is while we are casting Veiled Fire which will hit for 3k or so an assassin is able to get off multiple attacks that eventually hit for 4k. Also if you look at progressive parse during the fight you will see that the ranger should always start out as the number one spot, the others dont hit nearly as hard to begin with but they catch up quick. The biggest problem, like wizards, is that we dont have nearly the sustainable dps that assassin/warlock has. Back to the issue, Sniper Shot and Rain of Arrows are just two more of our massive hits. Reducing the timers on these will make you kick so much more [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>i think you got it a little mixed up.</P> <P>Ranger / Warlock = smaller attacks faster recasts better in AE fights</P> <P>Assasin / Wizard = bigger attacks and good at single targets</P>

[Gareorn]

<DIV>Ranger lvl 58 ancient teachings skill = Sniper Shot</DIV> <DIV>Assassin lvl 58 ancient teachings skill = Finishing Blow</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranger lvl 70 that upgrades the lvl 50 Storm of Arrows = Rain of Arrows</DIV> <DIV>Assassin lvl 70 that upgrades the lvl 50 Assassinate = Decapitate</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing Decapitate to Sniper Shot is an exercise in futility.  Sniper shot is <STRONG>not</STRONG> the Ranger version of Decapitate.  If for some reason we manage to get a better single target, leathal ranged attack, it will not be an upgrade to Sniper Shot, it'll be something totally new.  Unless, the devs decide to upgrade the ancient teachings for all the classes.  But then, that would create a whole new set of issues to complain about.:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Recca[BK]]

at least your rangers never saw the hour timer assassinate had, i could only imagine this thread if it still was an hour. as i said before decap and snipe account for very very little of your overall raid dps. i wouldnt mind a rain of arrow equiv, but its not gonna happen, or a upgrade to finishing blow the assassin ancient teaching but its unlikely and honestly not needed. these are fine how they are at least a few of you rangers can understand that.

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV>Only change to be made is to fix the Casting timer to 2-3 Seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atm 5 seconds does not jusitfy the dps gain, not to mention it's a long time to be in stealth which can be easily broken by AE's etc.</DIV>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the Sniper Versus Rain issue.  With its long cast, Rain hitting for 5k on a single target,  is still only 1k DPS for that time period, autoattack  reaches that with crits easily.  Assassins beat me most of the time on raids (I rarely group anymore, playing my alts for that - Brigand ftw) so I will keep searching for ways to get better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FYI I went to Poise with 5 in the crits and to Perfectionist in STR line.</DIV>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV>I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the Sniper Versus Rain issue.  With its long cast, Rain hitting for 5k on a single target,  is still only 1k DPS for that time period, autoattack  reaches that with crits easily.  Assassins beat me most of the time on raids (I rarely group anymore, playing my alts for that - Brigand ftw) so I will keep searching for ways to get better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FYI I went to Poise with 5 in the crits and to Perfectionist in STR line.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree.  The cast time for rain is too long and the cast time for sniper is way too long.  I usually hit for about 10K with sniper, but when you take in consideration the 5 second cast timer, hitting focus to make sure I crit, and then going into stealth, I'm looking at minimum of seven seconds of no DPS while using sniper.  If the shot happens to hit, I'm merely maintaining my normal DPS at that point.  If the shot gets parried, my DPS will dip noticably.<p>Message Edited by Gareorn on <span class=date_text>07-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:29 AM</span>

[Teksun]

If OUR big hit is RAIN, and Assassins is DECAPITATE then this means one thing to me: Rangers are to be the AoE kings of predators just as warlocks (?) are, so why not give us MORE AoEs? I'd settle for that, at least I'd fill a niche that I don't feel I fill now...<div></div>

[Marcuzs]

I have no problem with the way sniper shot currently is. What I would like to see is a faster recast if we miss like mages get. Having to wait 15 min to cast again because it got parried is crap.

[TwistedFaith]

Only problem with snipers shot is the BS casting timer on it, apart from that it's fine as a t6 spell.As for decapitate, assasins should have the best big hitter imho.One huge issue for ranger is how totally underpowered triple volley is, for a lvl 70 spell thats a complete joke.

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR>If OUR big hit is RAIN, and Assassins is DECAPITATE then this means one thing to me: Rangers are to be the AoE kings of predators just as warlocks (?) are, so why not give us MORE AoEs? I'd settle for that, at least I'd fill a niche that I don't feel I fill now...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I've often wondered about this myself.  Why is it that we only get the two AE's, one of which can't be used in many dungeons because it can pull adds.  At least Rain is an encounter only AE, but I've nearly wiped the raid force on more than one occassion using Selection .  And what's with the name "Selection" anyway?  Naming an AE that aggros everything within the tri-state area  "Selection" is kind of an oxymoron.</P> <P>Back to your point.  We do seem to have a Warlock-Wizard relationship with our Assassin brothers and sisters.  Why is it we only have two AE abilities?  I will admit, I do like the AE fights, my DPS is much better when I can AE.  But if we have a mezzer along, I can't AE, and I don't like not being able to AE.:smileytongue:</P>

[BlackAdderDr]

Hi Folks,  Angus has Ice Nova's trials and tribulations down to a tee.  I have 70 wiz/40aa and I can use Ice Nova once or twice on a raid/trash mob.  The way I have it spec'd allows me roughly 12-15k with spikes above or below (HH for 22k atm.. thanks brigands <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  I dusted off my Ranger and Sniper is a nice art but not really a main component of your DPS.  If you want really big big numbers all the time then Wizards do that hands down, we also die more... so hope you like both.  Fusion is the wizards version of nat selection and unless I have master amends and grouped with a troub and tank with a dirge I will not use it as I will die, each and every time.  Fusion when it lands with the right AAs on it will do 45k+ dmg. on 3 mobs.  I will however die immediately afterwards making me wish it hit 4 targets(wizard included) and save the agro pulling ;P.  Having recently toyed with my Ranger I have to say the art isnt all that bad considering the tier that it is in.   Rain with procs is where you will get more DPS 100% of the time.Hope this helps.-Acelia 70 Wizard of Nektulos-Alaulai 60 Ranger of Nektulos<div></div>

[Jay]

<P>Ha, I've played a ranger for 18 months and never once thought of us as an AE class. But hey, guess you learn something every day. </P> <P>FWIW, I agree that the cast time on Sniper's is a bit long, and having to wait 15 mins b/c of a parry (when you're in stealth behind the mob) is completely ridiculous. </P>

[Jayad]

<P>Rangers are not the "AE" predators to the assassin's "single target".  We just have a signature ability that is an encounter AE. </P> <P>Sniper's shot is not the problem with our dps, as somebody has mentioned.  Things lacking like assassin's mark and the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bird are.</P>

[Saihung23]

<P>So what you are saying Xney...is that when they were designing the new skills they really gave us the bird</P> <P> </P> <P>..I..</P> <P>:smileysurprised:</P>

[Jayad]

Yes, and it's a bird you use for 30 seconds straight.  And it pulls aggro.. hmmmm

[Saihung23]

<P>hehe...sorry...I am...umm...how do you say...off balance today</P> <P>I dont quite understand when we had great agro control before...why they would give us this bird that is a liability from what I understand...</P> <P>I have it...I spent good money to get it...and I am afraid to use it...I dont know what it will do to be honest...</P> <P>Give me something that does some damage :/ or debuffs the enemy...or buffs our buddies</P>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<DIV>The bird isn't a liability, and I find it an extra 80 DPS for 30 seconds inbetween AEs =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers are not an AE class.</DIV>

[Jayad]

<P>I think the thinking was, here's a spell that will allow DPS guys in the ranger's group to do more damage, and in raids the dps group the ranger is in can go at it hard while it's up.  In practice, none of that is true.  There's several issues with it, including:  (a) it breaks stealthing, which is hugely important to rangers - even more than assassins, since our ranged stealth attacks have long casting times, (b) when the bird dies or goes away, all of it's aggro transfers to the ranger which often will peel a mob immediately, and (c) it tends to die in AOEs a lot which often causes an instant peel.  For this reason, many raids outlaw it because the potential for a peel is much worse than any bonus hate transfer it might do for 30 seconds. </P> <P>Also, most raids in T7 now have excellent hate management, with most classes almost able to go completely all-out the entire time.  The bottom line is, it's pretty much worthless because it's solving a problem that isn't really a problem in raids or most groups (which are properly equipped/set up) and no raid leader is ever going to say, "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], we need a ranger for that hate bird".  What's the point of a skill which does no real damage, takes up a valuable level 65 special spell slot, is redundant to a good raid setup, and is usually banned?  It just gives us a deficit of a skill compared to other classes, almost any of which have a more useful spell.  Some classes have very nice level 65 skills, and then there's Rangers.</P> <P>p.s. consider the Assassin level 65 skill which reduces recasts temporarily.  Uh which is better?!</P><p>Message Edited by Xney on <span class=date_text>07-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:29 PM</span>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<DIV>The bird only sends aggro back when it dies, and yeah, it breaks stealthing.. umm ? Time your ability use? Do you use your sniper shot when an AE is about to hit?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It takes a little thinking, you can't just click with the ranger now.</DIV>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <DIV>The bird only sends aggro back when it dies, and yeah, it breaks stealthing.. umm ? Time your ability use? Do you use your sniper shot when an AE is about to hit?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It takes a little thinking, you can't just click with the ranger now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99cccc>WEAK statement.  Of course you cant just click with the ranger. Its pretty rude to assume any of us are mashers.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It is not as useful as a timer reduction...and it has no real hp's...so in a raid I would imagine it would die from one AoE...right?</P> <P> </P> <P>I dunno...from lack of excessive personal experience with it...I can only defer to others to form my opinion...</P> <P>I will keep reading this thread with interest.</P><p>Message Edited by Saihung23 on <span class=date_text>07-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 PM</span>

[Serventof Wrath]

<P>Honestly the only time I ever use Hawk Dive on a raid (assuming the raid leader has not already told me to never use the stupid bird again) goes like this:</P> <P>Me:  hummmm getting thristy need a coke.....</P> <P>Hawk Dive</P> <P>Stream of Arrows</P> <P>Random afk</P> <P>......30 secs later......</P> <P>Me:  ummmm nice and refreshing....</P> <P>oh look my reuse timers are up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[110euph]

<DIV>Wait Wait!  I get it!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They don't melt in your hand because of the candy shell!!!</DIV> <DIV>It all makes perfect sense now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe this was the wrong thread for that, though.</DIV>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <DIV>The bird isn't a liability, and I find it an extra 80 DPS for 30 seconds inbetween AEs =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Rangers are not an AE class.</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>AE class?  Is there even such a thing?  Some classes have AE abilities and some don't.  Rangers are one of the classes who do have AE abilities, and if you are not using them (they are potentially our biggest hitters DPS wise), you are losing DPS.</P> <P>No we are not an AE class, but we do parse much higher on AE encounters.</P>

[Teksun]

 I can't believe ya'll don't flip the bird in Raids. It lowers agro for your whole group. I'm always in the DPS group and some of those mages need all the help they can get...<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> I can't believe ya'll don't flip the bird in Raids. It lowers agro for your whole group. I'm always in the DPS group and some of those mages need all the help they can get...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, I often use the bird in raids.  Right before Stream of Arrows.  Sometimes I just don't want to wait the three seconds for evac to go off.:smileytongue:</P> <P>Seriously though.  I use the bird all the time when duoing with a healer to help hold aggro.  But in a raid, it can have disasterous results.  Now, if the hate was transferred to the tank in stead of me when the bird dies, that would be useful.</P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> I can't believe ya'll don't flip the bird in Raids. It lowers agro for your whole group. I'm always in the DPS group and some of those mages need all the help they can get...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The problem is it takes all that hate from the whole group and then dies when the mob looks at it and then I get all that hate plus what I've built up.  Now I don't mind dieing but I don't like being the reason the raid wipes.  It takes one time to turn a mob with a frontal AE and there goes half the healers and the raid leader is yelling at me and giving me a verbal rendition of "the bird" <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mirdo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> I can't believe ya'll don't flip the bird in Raids. It lowers agro for your whole group. I'm always in the DPS group and <FONT color=#ff0000>some of those mages need all the help they can get</FONT>...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's what Troub's are for <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Mirdo.<BR></P>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Serventof Wrath wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> I can't believe ya'll don't flip the bird in Raids. It lowers agro for your whole group. I'm always in the DPS group and some of those mages need all the help they can get...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>The problem is it takes all that hate from the whole group and then dies when the mob looks at it and then I get all that hate plus what I've built up</FONT>.  Now I don't mind dieing but I don't like being the reason the raid wipes.  It takes one time to turn a mob with a frontal AE and there goes half the healers and the <FONT color=#ffff00>raid leader is yelling at me and giving me a verbal rendition of "the bird" </FONT><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>OK, I've seen several of you post this sort of thing.  But call me dubious.</P> <P>I have NEVER drawn agro from using the bird.  Not Once.  EVER.</P> <P>Now I pretty much only raid.  And I suppose it's likely that my guild's tank(s) are better than the typical raid tank in holding agro.  But I would still think that I would have seen some evidence over the past months and months of raiding that the bird transfers such huge amounts of agro that it would disrupt raids.</P> <P>Not to mention that if you have some raid leader yelling at you about using the bird, I would suggest you politely tell him to pull his head out of his rear and either have someone who knows how to taunt tank for the raid or get a clue and put together some properly designed raid groups.</P> <P>But that strays from the point.  What sort of evidence do you guys have that the bird transfers all siphoned agro to the ranger when it dies?<BR></P>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>I also wonder where that came from.  I use the bird, albeit only occaisionally, and I have never drawn aggro after it.  The only time I draw aggro is if I get excited and start plinking arrows before tank has control of mob or if we are wiping, and it is my turn!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wondering where that came from, I mean you cannot really see the aggro numbers on a parse?  Can you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:27 PM</span>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV>I also wonder where that came from.  I use the bird, albeit only occaisionally, and I have never drawn aggro after it.  The only time I draw aggro is if I get excited and start plinking arrows before tank has control of mob or if we are wiping, and it is my turn!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wondering where that came from, I mean you cannot really see the aggro numbers on a parse?  Can you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <SPAN class=date_text>07-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:27 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Nope I don't see aggro numbers on a parse.  What I see is my bird die and the mob turn and run directly to me stomp the ranger (that's using ignorant bliss) and then run straight back to the tank.  What the parse shows are some really nice big numbers from the casters in my group and not much from me cause a.)  I haven't used sniper/veiled/rain yet or b.) we just finished off one mob in the encounter and i started the next mob with the bird.  So you tell me... maybe its pure luck that I cast the bird and half way through its duration it dies and the mob just figures a ranger would taste good right then.</P> <P>Now this does not happen every time I use the bird.  And if it just killed me I could care less I have back up gear and repair kits.  But how do you justify using a spell with very little usefulness when it has the potential to turn the mob and expose the whole raid to a frontal AE.</P>

[Jayad]

<P>Yes, when the bird gets wiped, <STRONG>YOU </STRONG>get the aggro the bird had, just like any pet or dumbfire dying.  If your aggro + the birds aggro > MT's aggro then you are going to get a raid mob running for you, possibly wiping your raid.   This is why they are generally not allowed at raids.  Imagine 30% of the caster's DPS going all-out in your group going to the bird.  Now imagine 20s into it, the bird dies, and you get all that hate in an instant.  Splat.</P> <P>Also, with the proper raid setup (dirge in MT, coercer, troubie in caster group) there is no need for additional hate management and the bird is mostly useless.  (With a good raid, even warlocks can go full out and not get aggro)</P> <P>The big problem with the hate it uses is it <STRONG>siphons to the bird itself</STRONG>.  If the hate dissapeared or transferred to the tank(s), then it would be useful because it wouldn't transfer it to the ranger if it dies.  (Although, as I said, I think this is a mostly useless spell in a good raid) </P> <P>Most likely if you aren't having problems, it's one of these cases:  1) the bird hasn't died in AOE, 2) the MT has a lot of hate due to proper setup and overcomes your gain, 3) your dps isn't doing a lot of DPS and thus is irrelevant.  Note: The better your raid is set up for hate, the more useless the bird is - yet the safer it is.  So it gets more irrelevant as the skill goes up - not exactly a good thing for rangers.</P> <P>I'm not sure whether the bird's aggro transfers to you if it expires instead of dying.  Maybe somebody has tested it both ways and could tell us.</P> <P>I sometimes use it purely as a cheap DOT but really it's not a good idea.  Any wipe because of your bird dying and turning the mob to you is far too costly relative to the small gain of it.  I have wiped the raid once doing it before I understood the hate mechanics.  (That wasn't a very good raid though - heh.)</P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xney wrote:<BR> <P>I sometimes use it purely as a cheap DOT but really it's not a good idea.  <STRONG>Any wipe because of your bird dying and turning the mob to you is far too costly relative to the small gain of it.</STRONG>  I have wiped the raid once doing it before I understood the hate mechanics.  (That wasn't a very good raid though - heh.)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>QFE

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>So... noone can definitively say that it does that.  POOKIE RIDES AGAIN!  Again I dont use it often, rarely against area effect mobs.  Main time I use it is when I need an afk so I release Pookie then hit SoA for a quick AFK.  Shhh, dont tell anyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV>So... noone can definitively say that it does that.  POOKIE RIDES AGAIN!  Again I dont use it often, rarely against area effect mobs.  Main time I use it is when I need an afk so I release Pookie then hit SoA for a quick AFK.  Shhh, dont tell anyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL thats excatly what I said I use it for about half down back on page 2 of this thread. :smileytongue:

[Sokolov]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ranger lvl 58 ancient teachings skill = Sniper Shot</DIV> <DIV>Assassin lvl 58 ancient teachings skill = Finishing Blow</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranger lvl 70 that upgrades the lvl 50 Storm of Arrows = Rain of Arrows</DIV> <DIV>Assassin lvl 70 that upgrades the lvl 50 Assassinate = Decapitate</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing Decapitate to Sniper Shot is an exercise in futility.  Sniper shot is <STRONG>not</STRONG> the Ranger version of Decapitate.  If for some reason we manage to get a better single target, leathal ranged attack, it will not be an upgrade to Sniper Shot, it'll be something totally new.  Unless, the devs decide to upgrade the ancient teachings for all the classes.  But then, that would create a whole new set of issues to complain about.:smileyhappy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The above is the only post in this entire thread that appears to show an understanding of the way classes and skills are designed.  </P> <P>Individually looking at any aspect of one particular skill (recast timer in this case), you will find another skill that is superior.  This means absolutely nothing.  </P> <P>A better idea might be to look at the case of whether the 3 Ancient Teachings for a Ranger are comparable to those of other classes.  </P> <P>Comparing it to a single level 50/70 spell is silly at best.</P><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>07-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

Compare snipers to decap, dont compare rain to decap. All I repeat ALL our abilities are underpowered cept focus aim. We lack in single target and ae dps in all aspects of the game. Look up the gap post to see for yourself.I dont want more abilities, more buttons to mash.. Just whats there on par with other classes, not asking anything more, not demanding anything less.

[Skratttt]

<hr size="2" width="100%">Snipers is a DoF specialty u get at lvl 58.......Devs have stated these will not ever be upgradedAssassinate was our class defining spell we got at lvl 50.....upgraded to decaptitate at 70Your rain line is the class equivalent<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">Snipers is a DoF specialty u get at lvl 58.......Devs have stated these will not ever be upgradedAssassinate was our class defining spell we got at lvl 50.....upgraded to decaptitate at 70Your rain line is the class equivalent<div></div><hr></blockquote>No its not, rain is the equivilant of AE's.. AE's are pretty much ballanced, assassins get higher damage with AE's on raids, rangers in group due to burst.  Dont try and push this point again without proof, go to the post about "the gap" - read the second post.</div>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Skratttt wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">Snipers is a DoF specialty u get at lvl 58.......Devs have stated these will not ever be upgradedAssassinate was our class defining spell we got at lvl 50.....upgraded to decaptitate at 70Your rain line is the class equivalent<div></div><hr></blockquote>No its not, rain is the equivilant of AE's.. AE's are pretty much ballanced, assassins get higher damage with AE's on raids, rangers in group due to burst.  Dont try and push this point again without proof, go to the post about "the gap" - read the second post.</div><hr></blockquote>I really don't understand the justification of comparing a level 70 spell with a level 58 one...The two skills were not designed to be equivalent in terms of progression and attainability, that much is obvious.The thing to keep in mind is that the Ancient skills were designed in DoF and are not part of the regular progression.  Comparing one aspect of the Ancient system to one aspect of the regular system will never yield useful information.None of the Ancient skills have direct equilavents as were they designed to be unique to each class.  But you can say that each class' set of Ancient skills should be comparable to the set of Ancient skills for another class.</div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>07-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:49 AM</span>

[Jayad]

You can make the argument that since assassins get 2 AEs, we get 2 AEs, but one of ours is our special level 50 line that something is messed up.  But that is separate from Sniper's Shot.   Rain may hit harder but it has a longer refresh, so it's not truly better than the 2nd assassin one.

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mirdo wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Teksun wrote: I can't believe ya'll don't flip the bird in Raids. It lowers agro for your whole group. I'm always in the DPS group and <font color="#ff0000">some of those mages need all the help they can get</font>... <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>That's what Troub's are for <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>Mirdo.</p><hr></blockquote>That's like saying we don't need DPS: That's what Assassins are for. We have a skill we use it.</div>