El Question de Achievement Lines

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>Been a while since we had a good discussion here on the lines.  I went Agility (went to the end) and I am almost finished in the int line as far as I can go.  I am loving the agility line, and will spend points there again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I read the int line though and I start thinking its mostly melee based.  Should I continue ?  I am hovering over the free respec button ready to put the points  in wis line instead.  I am thinking aggro reduction and sneakies might be more viable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jay]

<P>[Removed for Content], "sneakies?" Hehehe</P> <P>Good question though, I was going to ask something similar... I know the INT line has been popular with some peeps but it seems to cater to assassins more than anything. I've never looked too closely at the WIS line b/c I don't really feel that I need more aggro reduction or enhanced stealth, but it might deserve closer examination. I was actually thinking (don't laugh) of the STR line, myself. Am I crazy? </P>

[Vlath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>[Removed for Content], "sneakies?" Hehehe</P> <P>Good question though, I was going to ask something similar... I know the INT line has been popular with some peeps but it seems to cater to assassins more than anything. I've never looked too closely at the WIS line b/c I don't really feel that I need more aggro reduction or enhanced stealth, but it might deserve closer examination. I was actually thinking (don't laugh) of the STR line, myself. Am I crazy? </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dont think thats crazy at all...As a soloing ranger, the STR line provides many more benefits. The parry is nice as well as the melee crits. As much as we may try to range, melee is very much a part of our class. I can see the attraction to the int line, but with most of that relying on Procs and the recent Proc nerfage..It just doesnt seem as viable. Also, being on a PVP server where resists are key, Im sinking points into the first level of Wisdom line just to get my weak Wis stat up.</P> <P>IF all else fails, you can always respec and try all the lines if you so choose.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <p>[Removed for Content], "sneakies?" Hehehe</p> <p>Good question though, I was going to ask something similar... I know the INT line has been popular with some peeps but it seems to cater to assassins more than anything. I've never looked too closely at the WIS line b/c I don't really feel that I need more aggro reduction or enhanced stealth, but it might deserve closer examination. I was actually thinking (don't laugh) of the STR line, myself. Am I crazy? </p><hr></blockquote>I am going down the STR line myself, and am almost finished it.. My thinking was to half the recast on rain of arrows.. the bonus on that ability would outweigh the crit damage for poisons.. And since I dont use caustic poisons myself - I use mental breach.. intline isent worthwhile to me.</div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">I am not as far along with my AA's as I would like to be.  I'm just getting to the end of the agility line now.  However, I have been trying to decide which line I would take next, and it looks like it will be either the Int line or the Str line....and right now I'm leaning heavily toward the Str line.</font><div></div>

[Teksun]

I am going STR until I get my 8th to respec POISE (did that make since) I was thinking REAL hard about going WIS, but I just DON'T see agro being a problem for me... unless I'm half asleep... which is usual... so... maybe??? <div></div>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>*Edited to add more thoughts on INT line*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I considered the STR line as well when looking at respeccing, but...   Ok, I guess I should say I am a raiding ranger first, group second, solo only when it interrrupts my harvesting for guild tradeskillers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you have mobs that mem wipe themselves at times during the fight or that may kill the main tank, I prefer to be way down the list of aggro so that I can maybe get enough damage in to finish off the mob.  The more I look at the INT line I see it really only effecting melee attacks.  In fact I even looked over some of the logs from when I had neurotoxin on me and I dont see it firing off all that often.  The highest I could go in INT line would only benefit my CAs that had a damage over time component and poisons that do as well.  Frankly, I dont depend on the DOT portion of my poisons or melee attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WIS gets me defense adjustments and speeds up my in combat stealth (get more CAs in on my Focus line since stealth is faster).  My concern is the rapier requirement for the combat attacks...  And does the rapier have to be equipped for the defense bonuses etc?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STA line does not appeal to me very much, I do not want to hit multiple targets in a AE manner (is it encounter locked?  Am I gonna get aggro outside of encounter?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR  I am thinking about this some now,  thanks Jay42 /blergh,  it does give me melee crits and it allows me to use the more prevalent swords in my primary hand.  (Where the hell am I gonna find a rapierfor WIS line better than my Dark Fury Sabre?)  I like the added strength, I like the parry skill increase, I like the weapon choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, maybe STR instead of INT for second line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <span class=date_text>05-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 PM</span>

[Butcho]

<DIV>I went the str line as well. I think this helps greatly for soloing. You hit harded and with more chance of crits. </DIV>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR  I am thinking about this some now,  thanks Jay42 /blergh,  it does give me melee crits and it allows me to use the more prevalent swords in my primary hand.  (Where the hell am I gonna find a rapierfor WIS line better than my Dark Fury Sabre?)  I like the added strength, I like the parry skill increase, I like the weapon choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, maybe STR instead of INT for second line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That's pretty much why I'm looking at STR over the other two. You raise a good point about the memwipes and such, though. I'm grouping first, raiding second, soloing third...so while I don't *need* the parry bonus in the STR line, I like the other abilities it confers. And the added STR is much preferable to INT or WIS in my book, but that's just me.<BR>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>Ok I am certifiably an idiot and want to point it out before you do!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WIS gets me defense adjustments and speeds up my in combat stealth (get more CAs in on my Focus line since stealth is faster).  My concern is the rapier requirement for the combat attacks...  And does the rapier have to be equipped for the defense bonuses etc?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR  I am thinking about this some now,  thanks Jay42 /blergh,  it does give me melee crits and it allows me to use the more prevalent swords in my primary hand.  (Where the hell am I gonna find a rapier for WIS line better than my Dark Fury Sabre?)  I like the added strength, I like the parry skill increase, I like the weapon choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The Dark Fury Sabre is a frigging rapier.  All this time I ASSumed it was a sword.  Sure it looks more like a rapier than a sword but I ASSumed.  Now I need a good sword for my primary since I am going to move to the STR line.  Good lord sometimes I wonder how I make it out of bed in the morning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR> </DIV>

[Corwinus]

Well, Some feedback maybe I have now 40 aas and I went all the way with the Agi line like 44488, I am very happy with that line and I think it is a must for us Rangers. I also started the Int line and i am now at 443. My fellow Guild Ranger went to the Str line first with 44448 and now is starting the Agi line with 44 We are both 70s and quite comparable in terms of stats,equipment, weapons and poisons (adeste for offensive) The difference maybe that she has some relic armor chest and pants while i got some player made T7 and I use the Wurmslayer bow while she uses the grizzfazzle. Also she is a girl elf and I am a tomcat lol. During Raids I noticed though that, while we rate second compared to our Assasin brother ( 900-1100 dps most of the time with a killer Decapitate at 15k), there was (2 times on 3) a difference of 100 dps in her favor, so she would  rate 700- 900  with some peaks at 1000 while I would rate 600-800 (and no I am not slacking). That would be for me a good reason to respec in order to pursue the Str line instead of the Int one. I will try tonight in the lab and parse a bit. I hope the feedback helps our community Regards, Corwin Oasis <div></div>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>One more benefit of STR.  More STR = More damage on Autoattack.   Sure I am only going to 4 on the str add but it all helps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See I am selling myself now.</DIV>

[Beldin_]

Wow.. nice thread .. i must say till now i really never looked seriously into the strength tree .. but now i just respeced from 4488 Agi 2 Int to 4448 Str 42 Agi .. and i must say .. in terms of soloing i feel i do better .. even if i use rain only on single mobs.

[athitchcock]

<div></div>If I have enough points next time they offer a free respec, I want to try to get "Impenetrable". I just want to try it out once. Sounds very similar to the EQ1 ability (forgot the name), but the short length probably makes it useless.Gnaril<i></i><div></div>

[griffit]

Last night I was unsure about how I was going to start speccing my AA's so I looked in guild and found a 70 ranger and started picking there brain.   I also started browsing  this forum.    I found this thread and was loving it and how it was pretty much what my guild Ranger was saying.   Then I looked at USAF Jeepers sig and realized he was the guildie I was talking too.Hey Madigan<----- Bhodisattva<div></div>

[Beldin_]

<P>Just to complete ..  some numbers .. i was 2 times in Bonemire yesterday after the respec from Agi to Str and in the end i parsed 597 and 594 dps on soloing Basilisks and spiders for around an hour. The last time i was there before the respec i parsed 589 dps on the same mobs .. so in the end i do the same dps on single mobs .. in groups stream will maybe a bigger benefit .. and i have a little more avoidance now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So i think i will stay with that .. however .. i wish i had 18 more points now to skill agi again <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Beldin_ on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:40 AM</span>

[jarlaxle8]

right now i'm working on getting the last in the agi line (poise). was thinking a lot where to go after that, but i probably will start the str line, may be best for me who solos a lot. the other lines just didn't have much appeal to me.

[StealthM0]

<DIV>I went str/agi. I dont regret it. My melee and ranged dps has increased a lot. So far I am only 4-4 in each line (I built evenly). I dont like the 1h thing in the str line, but I adapted and got a xego longsword and an imbued ebony round shield to compensate for when I do use this (mostly soloing).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My str atm is around 405, my agi 522+ (near cap). I am going to respec eventually (when I max both lines). Thinking of taking the 1st choice for str to rank 8 (maxxing strength). I am thinking my dps would get oodles better if my str were over 500.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes the Int line is a joke. Its tailored for melee, but lets really look at this. Who is using it? Mages want to, but they dont melee much so it would be a waste for them. The only class I can see possibly benefitting from this line are assassins. And I plan on testing out the line thoroughly once my assassin hits 20 (hes 18 atm). </DIV>

[jarlaxle8]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>StealthM0de wrote:<div>I went str/agi. I dont regret it. My melee and ranged dps has increased a lot. So far I am only 4-4 in each line (I built evenly). I dont like the 1h thing in the str line, but I adapted and got a xego longsword and an imbued ebony round shield to compensate for when I do use this (mostly soloing).</div><hr></blockquote>1H? the requirement is a sword in primary, doesn't matter if dual wield or 1-hander.</div>

[Wozicasamoll]

<DIV>I am taking the wis line (when finished with the agi line) cus I like the stats and abilities added from that line. So imo you should go wis <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Lesca]

<P>Have also gone for the Agi line to start off with, and I've got to say that Poise makes one heck off a difference. Used to be able to get off Triple Shot, Precise Shot and one other bow CA during the 10secs of Focus Aim. Now I can do just about all the non-stealthed ones if I time my clicks right. Great to see all those orange crits above the mob. At least it is until I get the aggro from it. Since I'm not using the stealthed stuff at least I can throw up the hawk beforehand, let it take some of that away. Only slight issue is that occasionally you might find yourself in the position where (because all your recast timers are still the same) just about everything is greyed out and you're stuck on auto for a few seconds. Meh. At leats SoA proves useful in plugging up that gap.</P> <P>For the rest of my points, I'm heading off with Int to start with. Probably taking that to the first couple of levels to get the debuff into Adept level. May bung a few more points on the ranged crit skill in Agi, then add the first parts of Str to get Bladed Opening... We'll see. </P> <P>Since I'm not a soloer (soloing is a last resort), I'm not bothered as much about the procs that happen when things hit me - like that later parts of Int - but more about what I can do to a mob. So anything that will give me an extra hit or debuff in a group or raid situation, that's all to the good..</P>

[Star]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jarlaxle888 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StealthM0de wrote:<BR> <DIV>I went str/agi. I dont regret it. My melee and ranged dps has increased a lot. So far I am only 4-4 in each line (I built evenly). I dont like the 1h thing in the str line, but I adapted and got a xego longsword and an imbued ebony round shield to compensate for when I do use this (mostly soloing).</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>1H? the requirement is a sword in primary, doesn't matter if dual wield or 1-hander.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes, a DW sword works for it just fine. I use Sword of the Four Winds in my primary and Wurmslayer in my off hand.</P> <P>As far as int being melee based the only one that's really any more melee based than the other lines is Intox. I have tried STR, INT and STA for my secondary path and decided I like STR the best.</P>

[USAFJeeper]

<P>Hate to dredge up old posts but I figured that starting a new one would lose some of the good discussion here.  Since I last posted on here I have had a change of heart.  I switched from maxing ranged crits to using 5 points there and bringing out the str line as well so as to shorten timer on rain and sniper.</P> <P><EM><STRONG>EDIT!  I just reread this and it doesnt seem as clear as when I typed it.  What I mean is that I went to Poise in Agility and Perfectionist in Strength, with the one extra point thrown on the ranged crits ability.</STRONG></EM></P> <P>I have to say I think I have actually improved my DPS doing that BUT, and its a big BUT (No coments from the peanut gallery), I have also increased my base str now as well which does increase my damage.  Between those 2 factors (respeccing and adding str) I have seen an uptick of almost 200 in DPS.  I have critted for almost 9K on a rain now and coupled with using it more often, well thats really neato.</P> <P>Your mileage may vary, just thought I would see if anyone else has had similr or dissimilar experiences!</P> <P><EM>/tell raidleader Give you 50 gold to put a berserker in my group to max out</EM> str:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <span class=date_text>07-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:01 PM</span>

[Fennir]

I basically tested 3 combinations in raid situations:1. AGI / STR: Poise, Perfectionist, 5 points in ranged crit2. AGI / STR: Poise, max ranged crit, max melee crit3. AGI / INT: Poise, max melee crit, max spell crit (extra point wherever)1.   This was a decent combo for raiding, having Rain and Sniper up more often was definitely nice, but the DPS consistency on raids was not there.  There would be nice spikes, but overall average DPS was low.2.  This is also a decent combo for raiding, but it relies on a lot of movement as it is only efficient if you are constantly going back and forth from ranged to melee.  AOEs also make maximizing efficiency from this build sometimes a really big pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].3.  This is what I'm using now, and whether you use Grandmaster's Caustic or Grandmaster's Hemotoxin (you really should use one of them at least to get the most out of this build), the raid consistency seems to be much higher than the other builds I tried.  You still have to go into melee to use your skills for good DPS, but you are also not punished nearly as much on mobs with large/dangerous AOEs or damage shields.  This build gave me less huge spikes, but much more consistently high DPS overall.Each of these three choices are workable, though, and oftentimes a lot of the differences come down to playstyle and/or situation, so make sure you choose what's best for how you play and what you do.<div></div>

[Marcuzs]

<P>I have tried the following combinations:</P> <P>1. AGI/STR max crits</P> <P>2. AGI/INT max crits</P> <P>3. AGI/INT with inoxication</P> <P>I wont discuss the AGI line since it is a must have no matter how you look at. As far as I could tell from the different setups, none of them made a darn bit of difference. We have 2 Rangers in my guild. Both of us are almost as well equiped as we can get and both have almost all masters. He is currently using AGI/INT max crits and Im using #1 (He used AGI/STR with perfectionist and poise and it wasnt any better). Parse wise we are comparable if we both have all our skills up. I wont list parse results merely due to the fact they vary greatly depending on group setup. The only reason I decided to remain with setup #1 is I tank while 2boxing a mystic and the parry and mellee crits help somewhat. I can only hope with the next expansion we get some decent class specific AAs that are equivalent to roques (Wish I could get FD).</P>

[Teksun]

I am thinking more and more of going down the WIS line... Not that I ever need to lose agro, I rarely have that problem (that's a /sigh not a /flex). I am really interested is Smoke Bomb...<div></div>

[Fennir]

smoke bomb has a giant range, agros everythign in it and definitely not worth 8 pts<div></div>

[Teksun]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:smoke bomb has a giant range, agros everythign in it and definitely not worth 8 pts<div></div><hr></blockquote>I thought they fixed/were fixing that?</div>

[Fennir]

It still says (range: 15 meters).Therefore it will agro everything within 15 meters by putting you on their hate list, even if it's negative.<div></div>

[Teksun]

Dang... now if it would only FD me... I could have a LOT of fun with that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Bledso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>[Removed for Content], "sneakies?" Hehehe</P> <P>Good question though, I was going to ask something similar... I know the INT line has been popular with some peeps but it seems to cater to assassins more than anything. I've never looked too closely at the WIS line b/c I don't really feel that I need more aggro reduction or enhanced stealth, but it might deserve closer examination. I was actually thinking (don't laugh) of the STR line, myself. Am I crazy? </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I too am a Agility line first and thinking of STR 2nd - mostly due to me being a Wood Elf which has a lower base strength to begin with.</P> <P>I thought Wood Elf was a more role based race for a Ranger.</P> <P>I looked at int but only for the first box - as a matter of fact I was looking at 8 8 4 4 1 for agi - 8 str - 8 int & 8 wis or 8 sta</P>

[Recca[BK]]

just a note, somewhere someone said perfectionist cuts rain and sniper in half, not true it reduces your CAs by 33% so 10 min sniper and 2 min rain.

[hawktang]

<DIV>I'm a 70 Ranger who raids frequently, my thoughts on the AA line are that 'Poise' isn't a must for me, other than Veiled Fire, Rain of arrows and SS, most of our ranged attacks are quick casts, and to be honest, the recasts are so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] long on the majority of my bow moves, it doesnt really matter how quick I cast them, because there is still a delay in between. Most people who raid know that in some cases, (most of the time) it's a good idea to only use the best of your attacks and save the weaker ones (generally melee) because power is a problem on long fights. If we are saving power and using say 10 moves a minute, why is Poise so key? I have decided I will be finishing the Str line completely, I love the extra damage on Sniper's shot and Rain of arrows, also having rain of arrows's recast timer lowered is pretty usefull as you can get it in on most fights, and in a raid zone like the lab where most trash mobs are group encounters, it's usefull as I can use it every encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is going to be my setup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR line - 4,4,4,8,8</DIV> <DIV>AGI line - 4,4,4,8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taking the crits all the way is a BIG increase in DPS in terms of raiding, compared to 'Poise'</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not an incredibly experienced Raider, but that's just my thoughts and input into the question asked :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Teksun]

The reason I think most of us like poise is you can get an extra shot or two off while your crit chance is maxed...<div></div>

[hawktang]

<DIV>Yep that's true, always a plus aswell. It's a difficult choice for me, permanent 4% ranged + melee crit increase or the 35% extra?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] them for making is so difficult!</DIV>

[athitchcock]

I used the free respec to get Impenetrable tonight. I think when you look at a line, you should aspire to get the cool skill at the end but Impenetrable seems pretty useless so far. It seems most rangers max out Agi, then Str or Int. I can see Wis being useful if for some strange reason  you have problems pulling aggro. I just don't get the Sta line. Why would you want to max the Sta line?Maybe if Impenetrable could work on all attacks (6s of invincibility to pull, giving us some utility) or riposte all attacks instead of parry (6s of barrage/rampage/whatever riposting would probably be some nice dps), then it might be useful. As it is, I'm really not sure what predator would want it. The way I see it, the other lines are better choices no matter if you're a raider, grouper, soloer, quester, harvester, or tradeskiller.I guess if you did 4+4+4 Str to get Parry increases, 4+4+4 Wis to get defense increases and 4+4+4+4+8 Sta to get hp increases and Impenetrable, you could sort of tank ... maybe.I don't know all the AAs of all classes, but I can't imagine too many classes have a line that 1% of good or evil versions would pick.If anyone has an idea how Impenetrable might be useful, let me know and I'll try it out. Otherwise, I vote for a revamp of the Sta line.Gnaril<div></div>

[LordAng]

<DIV>I am a raiding ranger and ive tried a few different AA combos. The one i like best is INT/AGI. i put INT first cause it is maxed and AGI isnt. My setup is as follows:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>INT 5/4/4/8/8</DIV> <DIV>AGI 4/4/4/8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I skipped the STR line altogether cause i dont melee enough for it to be worth it and going all the way to the end just for a small recast timer redux and 15% damage increase on some attacks wasnt worth sacrificing intox, spell crit or ranged crit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I maxed ranged crit because it makes sense to being the main thing a ranger does, it adds noticable dps. I didnt touch poise because honesltly, our cast times arent long enough for it to be worth it. Assuming you got 100% haste, youre bow still is only gonna fire every 3 seconds (unless youre using a short bow which is a good way to lose more DPS). since rangers only have a few attacks that have casts longer than 3 seconds, ie veiled fire, which requires invis and sniper shot, i dont feel i need faster cast times anyways. a ranger should be timing out auto attack shots as to not interfere with CAs (raiding that is). for the most part, this means that even without poise, you can still spam 2 CAs between 2 auto attack shots and not lose any dps. Sure poise can maybe get a 3rd attack off, but thats pushing it, auto attack generally hits for more damage than our CAs do, it makes sense to try to let Auto attack go off as often as possible. spamming CAs is a good way to lower DPS so i have no need to cast faster. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>INT is my main line, i think its great. My agi and str stats are generally at the cap at raids at this point so its nice to be buffing int instead which increases your poison damage. Poison combo is a decent debuff, nothing game-breaking but if youd like to increase your own poison damage on a mob as well as everyone elses in the raid, go ahead and use it. Spell crit is great. at lvl 8 its something like 55% chance to crit. Spell crit apllies to Mortal Reminder, ALL poisons and ALL weapon procs. this right here is a bit underrated when you are seeing Grandmaster's Caustic Poison critting for 1200 damage on a mob half the time it goes off, which is considerable. Hell, Intox crits half the time with spell crit maxed and that adds considerable damage. Lastly, Intoxication. i think this AA is great, its up every fight, sometimes twice, (on raid mobs) so you are always using it. It rakes in a good amount of DPS while its being used during a fight as well as debuffs all offensive skills. so you help yourself and you help the raid and it adds a tad more Utility to a class that has none. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive respeced a few times and tried some other combos but i am very confident that i have it right the way it is now.</DIV><p>Message Edited by LordAngus on <span class=date_text>07-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:29 AM</span>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>Are you saying that the INT line works on all poisons not just dots?  I was under the impression it only worked on dot poisons.   I see caustic crits a lot anyway because I am trying to buff my int more as my gerar changes and I need less str and agi gear.  From reading it, it looks like it only works on dots, if you know something different please share <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fennir]

Read my post on the last page.  I specifically said you want to use a caustic with the INT line.  It definitely crits... a lot.By the way, INT does nothing to increase your crit chance.  At all.<div></div>

[Jayad]

<P>The crit difference between Poise is 2, maybe 3 CAs under Focus and 4-5 consistently.  Which is a big deal.  Also, using your CAs faster starts the recast timer earlier and so you get a bit of a recast "bump" as well due to the mechanics.   Remember that besides critical % bumps, you get DPS and +tohit bumped a lot during Focus so they miss a lot less and your auto-attacks hit harder.</P> <P>I.e. if your cast timer for all your ranged is say 15s total, then poise will let you start your next casting cycle about 3-5s earlier than if you didn't have poise.  You will also have done about 20% more dps in that casting cycle because you got more spells off. </P> <P>If you only get 1 casting cycle in a fight, then it only helps that little bit, but if the fights last longer or you fight continuously then it adds up.  In raids I almost always get at least 2 cycles. </P> <P>The only reason this really matters is because our dang CAs take so long to cast, which is just crap.  If we had CA casting times like the melee ones then we could get another end CA or put 8 points into something more useful.</P>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>Meh, I get a lot of crits as it is (I use Caustic almost exclusively).  Think I will stick with Poise and Perfectionist till I get anotehr free respec then I may give it a shot on a raid and compare numbers.</DIV>

[LordAng]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xney wrote:<BR> <P>The crit difference between Poise is 2, maybe 3 CAs under Focus and 4-5 consistently.  Which is a big deal.  Also, using your CAs faster starts the recast timer earlier and so you get a bit of a recast "bump" as well due to the mechanics.   Remember that besides critical % bumps, you get DPS and +tohit bumped a lot during Focus so they miss a lot less and your auto-attacks hit harder.</P> <P>I.e. if your cast timer for all your ranged is say 15s total, then poise will let you start your next casting cycle about 3-5s earlier than if you didn't have poise.  You will also have done about 20% more dps in that casting cycle because you got more spells off. </P> <P>If you only get 1 casting cycle in a fight, then it only helps that little bit, but if the fights last longer or you fight continuously then it adds up.  In raids I almost always get at least 2 cycles. </P> <P>The only reason this really matters is because our dang CAs take so long to cast, which is just crap.  If we had CA casting times like the melee ones then we could get another end CA or put 8 points into something more useful.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So what youre saying is that when a fight starts, you spam all your ranged CAs as fast as humanly possible so that you can start again a total of 3-5 seconds earler? You know that by doing this, you are preventing one of the most substantial sources of ranger dps from being 100% effective; Auto Attack. If you are letting your atto attack go off to its full potential, then the extra .3 seconds you are saving on each CA is totally arbitrary. Auto attack hits in general hit for just as much, if not more than a normal CA attack (save veiled fire, rain of arrows and snipe). Not to mention that without intox, you are passing up a poison that hits for around 500-700 damage 8 times in 48 seconds.</P> <P>As far as the Spell Crit increase, yes, it does work on Grandmasters, definately. ive noticed a difference since i got it maxed. keep in mind that with spell crit, if you have a sorcerer or bard or summoner proc put on you, spell crit also affects that. actual +INT does not increase crit chance though, it only increases your poison damage.</P> <P>Im not saying that INT is gonna give you massive damage, im just saying that it raises your overall average damage a lot more than poise and perfecion would. those two abilities are geared toward buffing your CA damage which helps with burst dps. going with the spell and ranged crit maxed and the intox is more geared toward damage that you put out from non-CA related attacks (auto attack, procs, poisons, etc.). keeping in mind how SOE buffed auto attack damage and that with a high delay bow, you will inevitably get a large number of procs, i concluded that i was going to gear my AAs toward non-CA dps and i believe its making a huge difference. <BR></P><p>Message Edited by LordAngus on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>It's true whether you are letting auto-attacks go off by pausing or not - the total time to cast is still lower, therefore, the total time to get to being done with a cycle is faster, and they will refresh earlier. </P> <P>Here's a spreadsheet I worked up.  Note that this includes all our ranged CAs, and I cast every one in a "cycle".  If you delay a bit between casts, then it does push it out by your delay but it doesn't change the principle.</P> <P>I derive the "average earlier" recast by taking the likelyhood any given CA will be done earlier and available earlier which is the total / 2.  (on average you will be in the middle)  Or another way to think of it, you get "done" an average of 2.3s earlier so your recasts start faster. </P> <P>For CAs which aren't available at least every minute (Rain, Veiled), subsequent cycles won't benefit as much because they aren't recast as often, but it is true for the first refresh.  It seems reasonable a weighted long-term average might be around the 1.8-2s level or so, if you cast ranged attacks as often as possible, which would be about 3% additional attacks.  Somebody coudl do a better analysis on this if they want.</P> <P>There is also a benefit in that because your CAs get off quicker, you get interrupted less, but there's no way to quantify that.  I also didn't take into account the DPS boost from getting more arts under Focus, which in my opinion is the primary benefit of Poise.  But it's interesting that even a secondary benefit is a good % more attacks.</P> <P>**** BAh it's eating my spreadsheet, so I'm just going to post the results.  I took all our ranged CAs, their casting and recasting times, and also their cast times with Poise.  Then compared them.  Sorry it looks a bit weird but this forum just is awful for pasting.</P> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>Total Cast Time Normal:</FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>17s</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>Total Cast Time Poise:</FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>12.3s</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>Difference:</FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>4.7s</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>Average Earlier Recast With Poise:</FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>2.35</FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>s</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>% Additional Attacks (Average) Relative to 60 second cycle, using average recast for all arts (slightly simplified/inaccurate, and somewhat biased to a higher value due to Rain & Veiled not being used every cycle):</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2></FONT><FONT color=#66ff66 size=2>3.92%</FONT><FONT color=#66ff66></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff66>Reasonable % over long-term is likely 3% if you use Ranged as often as possible and continuously.  As CAs sit unused, this % goes down.</FONT></P> <P> </P>

[LordAng]

<DIV>Im sure thats all perfectly correct, but you arent weighing the alternative.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, i am not gonna spend my night calculating the odds of spell procs, poison procs and chances to crit because that is mainly how i have geared my AAs. just know that i have tried the alternative and i will never go back to poise from Intox. and secondly, this CA cycle theory has me a bit puzzled. its rare that i have a period of time where all my CAs are down and there is nothing to do. even in raids, i am used to quick pulls where there is no time to let everything refresh so its a matter of staggering abilities out so that they are not all down or up at the same time. if you have your CAs running in cycles, you will most likely end up with inconsistant waves of dps where you get 2 cycles off with one mob and 1 cycle off with another mob and your dps will be all over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jayad]

<P>Why would being inconsistent matter?  I'd prefer being inconsistent over deferring damage any day.  I'm specifically referring to raids, where I don't think you're killing more than 1 raid encounter every 60 seconds.  Although even in groups, it goes faster if you are dealing damage at the maximum rate possible, provided your power management/hate is good.  What's important in raiding, for example, is doing the most damage over the whole raid, if you are a pure DPS class like rangers.  Sure, everybody loves the named parse but good dps over the whole zone means 3 hours versus 4, for example.  Maybe it all averages out, I don't know.</P> <P>There's no hard concepts here.  Your recast timers can only start after you cast.  How long you cast, therefore, impacts when you can cast it another time, both for that particular spell and subsequent ones.  Our recast times are one of the biggest factors in our DPS, like every class.  However you play your toon, this all is true and Poise does help in that area as well.</P> <P>How much it helps versus other options in the AA line, I'm not sure about that at all.  I'm not saying Poise is the best choice - far from it.  I only wanted to explain this secondary benefit of Poise in detail.</P> <P>I don't really think any of our AA lines are that great.  Predators just seem to get awful AAs.  I haven't tried intoxication so if somebody can post some numbers on how the INT line helps, it would be nice to see.  When you look at the AAs overall, it's clear some classes get much better ones than others. </P>