AA - Criticals...

[Wades]

Well, well, I spent 36 AA points already and have 6 stored and 2 to go to get a final achievement (Int). AGI 4+4+4+7INT 4+4+4+4Bounty (1) + In stock (6)Since I was heading towards Intoxicaton (final int line) and it was changed (increases recast timers of target by 20% => now, decreases casting/fighting skills by 4 levels). I was wondering how to spend in a different way my points. I aimed first to Poise (final agi line) but since it's passive I am afraid it will reduce my procs by 35%.Then to Inpenetrable (final sta line), but it's now 6 seconds instead of 7 instead of 12 and it only affects melee damage...And it struck me that Critical hits are still the same joke as in EQ1. Basicly, I hit harder now and then without the hit being critical than when it says in huge numbers "46" (yeah, small dot poison). To sumarize, I believe spending points in AA criticals is not a good investment, you got more "huge orange numbers" but no real improvements in DPS (my highest damage around 14k wasn't a critical, my best "critical" is around 11k, with snipershot).Since criticals bring no more than 'a good hit' (without any stats/skills decreases or subsequent damage from the wound), and that they are not the biggest hit you can make (with the same CA or bows), I am afraid they are just "huge orange numbers" not worth spending points. So I was wondering what's good for rangers ?Bounty 1 (I even removed it from my bars... so usefull...)AGI 4+6 = 10 pts (some agi + melee stun CA ) INT 4+4+6 = 14 pts (some int + poison debuff CA + debuff shield)STA  4+4+5  = 13 pts (some sta + AE CA + 5% total hit points)STR 4+4+2 = 12 pts (some str + new CA + some parry...)I first realized that the final master-super-achievement were close to useless, then that the Critical Hits weren't so critical... so now I guess let's waste points around...<div></div>

[Stormhawk]

Criticals are a game of chance.  If you get a good damage roll and it crits it looks like crits are awesome.  On the other hand if you get a crappy damage roll then it crits it looks like it did nothing.  In addition, looking at your highest hit is a poor measure of critical effectiveness.  There are way too many variables that go into huge hits.  I have seen some of my vieled fire shots hit for higher then some of my sniper's shots.  The RNG is an unforgiving beast.  You need to think of it this way, had the shot not crited you'd have hit for upwards of 30% less damage then what was reported.  Now look at your crits over the course of a fight and remove 30% damage from each of them, you'll see a difference.  The % increase might be small overall but with a little luck it can burst to huge sums. As for Poise and proc rates, procs from CAs are a joke.  They are too rare to really be considered, most of our procs now come from autoattack.  The ability to fit more CAs into Focus Aim is priceless because our crit rate during it is just sick making it more reliable then procs from CAs. <div></div>

[Kiluvi]

When you get a 'Critical' hit it means that you hit for 1.3*normal_hit. Say you were going to hit a mob for 20 points of damage, but instead you got a critical hit on the mob. That 20 damage then turns into 26 damage.  1.3 * 20 = 26.Getting a critical hit does increase your overall damage per second, it just is not as noticable until you start hitting for an average of about 100 or so, and the numbers are bigger. By putting 8 points into Ranged Expertise you come out with +22% chance to score a critical ranged attack. That on top of the base 1%, gives a 23% chance for critical shots. With a 23% chance, you will start to see a lot more critical hits, which in turn signifcantly increases your damage per second, as you start hitting for 1.3*normal_hit a lot more often.Say you were using auto attack with your bow, and you hit for 100, 120, 110, and then 140. That equates to 470 total damage.100 + 120 + 110 + 140 = 470Now, if you had gotten critical hits on 2 out of 4 of those attacks, that would signicantly increase the damage.100(1.3) + 120 + 110 + 140(1.3) = ?130 + 120 + 110 + 182 = 542470 > 542, therefore you did more damage in the same amount of time as you would have hit for 470 damage. When you hit for 470 damage in the same amount of time as 542, the 542 is going to be higher damage per second.<div></div>

[Star]

<P>A crit is not always 1.3 * normal. It is correctly anywhere in the range of  (max displayed damage of attack) +1 to (max displayed damage of attack) * 1.3</P> <P>Therefore your examples need some more info and some adjusting. If my bow does 100-200 DMG per hit over a long average I should hit the bows DR for DPS (that is taking no STR into account and 0 mit/avoidance for mobs). For ease say it's the fastest bow ever with a 1sec delay. It's DR should be roughly 150.</P> <P>Now add crits. When I crit I'm not hitting for 1.3 times a normal die roll, I'm instead hitting for 201-260 DMG. Same bow, 100% crit chance gives a DR that is now roughly 230.5.</P> <P>So let's back it up to 23% crit chance. We can figure out average DPS for this make believe bow by doing ((150 * 77) + (230.5 * 23))/100 = 168.515</P> <P>I believe that's a 12% DPS increase over having no crits. Worth it in my opinion. Plus the ability to fit more CAs into a Focus Aim with poise is really helpful. Poise also currently improves SoA's effectiveness and if they actually fix SoA and continue to allow Poise to effect the Stream Shot effect that SoA uses then you should get about one Stream Shot off per second. That would push mine to about 500DPS average w/o crits and procs (and I have seen procs hit on more than one Stream Shot during a use of SoA).</P> <P>Here's the post where Moorgard states the range for a crit hit.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=97641#M97641" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=97641#M97641</A></P> <P>As far as the AA points suggested in the OP... I dunno, that's way to much swaping for weapons for me. You need a sword for the STR CA, a spear for the STA CA, and a dagger for the INT CA. I wouldn't want to have to do that swapping just to use those CAs.</P><p>Message Edited by jwmaynar on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

[Jayad]

<P>Passive skills are very valuable because they are *always on*.  Thus you might feel like you can't get it when you need it like using a CA, but it's always improving you.  Although you can't count on crits in a particular fight, like in poker you have an expected return over time which will give you a huge advantage.  More than I think you will get from any other skill in the tree for your own personal DPS.</P> <P>The extra damage is nice in a crit, but I think maybe the most valuable part of it is it'll first do *max damage*. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[The_Wind]

This is one thing i've wondered since I read it, and would like an honest answer from a Dev on.  Its a passive skill, meaning its always on.  That being said, does it affect the base line of the skills cast timer?  IE say, 3.0 seconds - 35% = new skill cast time.  Do procs go off the base cast time, or the augmented cast timer?  You'd think if its the base cast time, then a 35% redux wouldn't be that bad a deal as proc chances wouldn't be altered.  But if its augmented, then its really not that grande a skill.

[Star]

<DIV>I fail to see how the proc chance being adjusted makes it a 'bad' skill. Procs are not that big a deal for us anymore. I would guess it goes off the new time. The Devs basically want the proc chance for everything, CA and AA (and in LU23 it would seem spells too) to be normalized for a 3 second delay. *shrug* Poise still let's me fit almost 2 or 3 more skills into the timer of my Focus Aim, that is a big return. Doing the math I get a 61% crit chance for 10 seconds. 20% more DPS roughly on average than when Focus Aim is not on. That's a nice boost IMO.</DIV>

[Wades]

Criticals:I must be missing something there...Good joke: (max displayed damage of attack) +1 to (max displayed damage of attack) * 1.3My highest melee damage is 14k with snipershot. It was not a critical hit and recent critical hits I did with the same CA are lower. But it should be max displayed damage of attack +1. Ok I know it depends on debuffs, stats and luck but the formula is somewhere wrong. Last nite with Rain of Arrows: critical at 3k5 on mob n°1, 4k5 on mob n°2 (no crit), 2k on mob n°3 (no crit). Same with Stream of Arrows: 987, crit at 1052, 1203, critical at 1270, 1101 etc... Normal hits can be better than critical hits, so where is the x1.3 ?I am sorry but I dont buy it. It was the same in EQ1, warriors where the only class for long with melee crits (monks had crit kicks, rogues and rangers ranged crits) and you scored hits higher than 'critical ones' often. Even if I agree biggest hits were critical hits.Anyhow, I'll take time to /log a raid and send my log to SoE. For Focus Aim and Poise, I may give it a try but, I was wondering if letting a normal ranged attack go between two CA's was not a bad idea. In raid situation with slightly or strongly AoEing MoBs, casting faster is not a problem. Reuse timers are the same and you must space you casting. In solo, you must often melee when traps and CAs are down focus aim is not a great help. For last AA Int Line debuff, I asked in guildchat and I was told that it may help but that boss mobs where in another dimension and 20 less in melee skills was nothing for lord Vyemm, as for casting AoE were not affected by magic skills of the Mobs... So I am still unsure what to take... I guess even if increasement of casting time by 20% would come back, it will by "does not affect epic targets" or "does not affect area of effect spells"... I wonder why some good ideas from EQ1 were not added. Ambidextry, Endless quiver (with duration)... Rogues get Feign Death, we should have had a stealth with hate list wipe (like rogues and bards in EQ1), an added proc "Burning Arrows" where you put fire to your arrows for a number of shots (to provide improved damage, plus visual effects (already in game btw), and a solution on some mobs immune to melee damage).I finally don't like much AA and find no great use in the final-ubber-master-8-points AA of any predator lines... prove me wrong.<div></div>

[Teksun]

I PERSONALLY believe that crits should just negate mitigation. I know it doesn't work this way, but there's my 2cp <div></div>

[Kiluvi]

<blockquote><hr>Wades wrote:I finally don't like much AA and find no great use in the final-ubber-master-8-points AA of any predator lines... prove me wrong.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Achievments aren't supposed to be some 'final-ubber-master-8-points' deal. They're meant to be add-ons and skills that you will want, but not enough to signifcantly change your character, or break them off from their class role. They may not have a great use, but they all still have a use, no matter which combination of skills you decide to go with.They're called 'Achievments' now instead of 'Alternate Advancements' for a reason.<div></div>

[Prandtl]

<P>Some good news about poise. A dev has stated that procs will trigger off the "base" cast timer rather then the faster timer</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=101455#M101455" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=101455#M101455</A></P> <P>I think I am definitely going down the agility AA line now</P>

[Wades]

Ok lol, I guess FDing rogues isn't changing their class. Our guild brigand was already dodging AoEs, now using FD he can "save" the raid and reviving people, he can sneak into zones to check nameds and usable items (Gore/Tal statue). And it's not a T6 or T7 CA, a level 20 rogue (brig/swash) can achieve this AA. So in my opinion it changed the class. You've got a nice 'chanter AA line which allow them to chain cast too. Fighters get dragonreflexe another powerfull tool (12 secs version of our impenetrable) to improve their tanking abilities. I am not jealous at all, I even agree with you Kiluvian, they don't change our class.<div></div>