Ranger DPS in raid post LU21 [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

LordAng

03-26-2006, 10:04 AM

<div></div><p>Im gonna have to agree with Katsugen on this. I am a pure raider though (group on occasions and never really solo), so what i have to say isnt neccessarily for everyone.</p><p>For starters, i never had too many complaints before LU21 came out after the nerf. My DPS was on par with other t1/t2 classes in groups and raids. With the damage increases from LU21, im happy. The changes to auto attack were enough to keep me going, Im getting ranged crits in the 3.5k range on a frequent basis and normal, non-crit auto attack is up in the 1.5k-2.5k range. Amazing Shot and Confounding Arrow do significant damage and Focus Aim is worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] now. Ive NEVER really had problems soloing, and after the proc nerf, i tried soloing just to see what all the complaints were about, now its much easier again.</p><p>Now, Im prolly gonna get some lashback for saying this (and this doesnt apply to soloers) but, for the rangers who are still complaining about DPS, its prolly cause you havent figured out the class yet. DoF rangers were stupid. I hated the fact that Ranger CAs didnt even matter, you could use any attack you wanted and get 5 procs from it. So DoF ranger Strat: Dont think, Spam CAs, turn on Stream of Arrows, go afk for 30 seconds (if i never use SoA again, i wont be too upset). Now we dont have procs as a crutch, you have to time CAs to be efficient, it matters what order your CAs go in; there is strategy and thinking to it. Im having a great time right now because, atm there is separation between the players who genuinely know the class and the players who wish they could have procs back so it would go back to being easy.</p><p>If your DPS isnt up to par, my suggestion would be to start trying different things. I do not play a ranger now the same way I did when DoF was out.</p>

Tarryn

03-26-2006, 11:35 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>LordAngus wrote:<div></div><p>Now we dont have procs as a crutch, you have to time CAs to be efficient, it matters what order your CAs go in; there is strategy and thinking to it. Im having a great time right now because, atm there is separation between the players who genuinely know the class and the players who wish they could have procs back so it would go back to being easy.</p><p>If your DPS isnt up to par, my suggestion would be to start trying different things. I do not play a ranger now the same way I did when DoF was out.</p><hr></blockquote><div>Well, I was one of the first ten rangers on my server two weeks after launch. I may only raid occasionally, but apart from that I doubt anyone can teach me a whole lot about playing a ranger in this game. I'm not uber, and I'm only level 63--but that's because I take my time, explore my abilities, and challenge myself. I'm not bragging, I'm just pointing out that I pretty well know what I'm doing.</div><div> </div><div>That said, the fixes in LU21 were absolutely not enough--and I don't even have to parse to discover that. You can simply look at the abilities that were changed and work out the effects mathematically. The ONLY significant changes to our DPS were the ranged autoattack improvement, and the crit chances on Focus Fire. Basically, our DPS gets to be respectable for 10 seconds, when Focus Fire is up. The autoattack hasn't been increased to anywhere near the degree they mentioned, and it still doesn't form a big enough portion of our damage output for their boost to be adequate.</div><div> </div><div>It's nice that they improved some of our CAs. The increases to Rip and Fatal Reminder are ok, for melee abilites. The root on Lunging Blade is helpful, though it would have been better if they hadn't nerfed its damage--that kinda offsets the positives. The improvement to Amazing Shot is good--you don't exactly look for extra damage when you're pulling for a group, as AS is best suited to doing, but that's not a huge deal. Same goes for Confusion Arrow--as long as it doesn't cause your group's aggro to go haywire (Oops! Sorry, Brig--you were doing too much damage at the wrong time!).</div><div> </div><div>Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that they gave us some attention. But if they believe these changes put us where we need to be alongside Assassins and Sorcerers, then they don't fully appreciate the extent to which they broke us.</div><div> </div><div>Bravo to the changes--now increase our CA damage by about 15-20% <em>across the board</em>, and we should be about right.</div>

Gailstryd

03-26-2006, 01:15 PM

<div></div><p>I love how everyone keeps bringin up this "better/best way to play a ranger" thing now and saying oh you slackers must not be playing your class right and yet none of you [Removed for Content] seem content enough to share the "new world ranger" playstyle. Now i'm know how to play my ranger and play him [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good im consistently in the top 5 dps on my raids all the time but my numbers could be better and from what ive seen, another looking over is in order. I mean given the fact that any summoner, berzerker, or bruiser can pretty much out dps us at will along with any assassin who is really good and admittedly the assassin does have to be good. I don't mind my dps where it is at now, what I hate is relying upon an AA ranged crit crutch and breaking my bank for t7 arrows. I was going to go str AA line, but after tonights raid I decided to check out Int line first and work on gettings my spell crits up since they will have the best affect as far as I can see on up'ing my dps more. One thing for sure is either the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] t2 and t3 classes need to have their turn at being "balanced" or we need another turn at the upgrade station. It doesn't help that SOE takes 1 step forward and then 2 steps back, giving us some upgrades but either not in the way they said they would (aka the 33% bow dmg increase that didn't land on Grizz) or the fact that we are one of maybe two dps type classes that didn't get a dps type upgrade for their 65 spell. I hate the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hawk and I barely ever use it, never seems to be needed anyways.</p><p>In all I could live with my ranger fine the way he is, though I'm sure if I ever get one of my many alts higher, Rhanin would prolly see a decrease in play time. However, as it stands, I'm good to go. I have better dps than a lot of other rangers i've seen and had the chance to parse with as well as being almost in line with what I think we should be to truely define ourselves as t1 and be a significant class in the running. Hopefully, when and if arrow changes arrive we may see another small boost there or potentially from another area, there are for a fact still a couple abilities that need to be looked at (our multi shots). Maybe it is because I got to use to the punch we pack pre lu20, but in all I still feel a little bland and then again that might jsut be because I have a berserker who can own my dps seemingly at will or necro's with their "ranger in a can" pets i believe someone called them. </p>

Balerius

03-26-2006, 02:32 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>LordAngus wrote:<div></div><p>Now, Im prolly gonna get some lashback for saying this (and this doesnt apply to soloers) but, for the rangers who are still complaining about DPS, its prolly cause you havent figured out the class yet. DoF rangers were stupid. I hated the fact that Ranger CAs didnt even matter, you could use any attack you wanted and get 5 procs from it. So DoF ranger Strat: Dont think, Spam CAs, turn on Stream of Arrows, go afk for 30 seconds (if i never use SoA again, i wont be too upset). Now we dont have procs as a crutch, you have to time CAs to be efficient, it matters what order your CAs go in; there is strategy and thinking to it. Im having a great time right now because, atm there is separation between the players who genuinely know the class and the players who wish they could have procs back so it would go back to being easy.</p><p>If your DPS isnt up to par, my suggestion would be to start trying different things. I do not play a ranger now the same way I did when DoF was out.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I know how to play the class, thank you. While I am still experimenting with ways to improve my dps even further, I also know there is only so much that can be sqeezed out of inferior CAs. If you think you are doing equivalent dps to assassins on epic mobs, then you're either fooling yourself or you're playing with some incredibly poor assassins.</p><p>I stand by my earlier statements. Until rangers can <em>consistently</em> do at least 1000-1300 dps on epic encounters (this means without using rain of arrows and without using sniper shot), then you can't say we're equal to assassins.</p>

marc08

03-26-2006, 05:26 PM

<div></div><p>I have to agree that ranger DPS is a little better now. I also parse out in the top 5 or 6 on each epic encounter on a raid, ever so slightly behind the wizzies, with the tank classes behind by just a bit. This is accomplished with using only T7 poisons, staying at more of a medium range from target so that I can use melee CAs in combination with ranged attacks, and basically using the full gamut of abilities on each encounter. I can live with having to "work hard for the money".</p><p>But...the main issue I have noticed after a week of parsing encounters using 2 different tools is that the intended DPS classes (wizzy, ranger, conj/necro, assasin) are being FAR outclassed by swashbuckler/brigand and monk/bruisers. The monks and swashes are doing 50+ % more damage than the intended DPS classes. Swashbucklers are also scouts, so it seems logical that their DPS should be on a par with rangers and assasins. The difference between the scout classes should be the unique abilities each brings to an encounter in the form of abilities (debuffs, interrupts, etc) but that there should not be such a wide disparity in the end DPS.</p><p>It also baffles me that monk DPS should be so high. Monks are a tank class, and while they should be the highest DPS of the fighter line, it does not make sense that they should consistently be in the top 2 or 3 encounter DPS. It appears that some additional class adjustments still need to be made to bring the classes back within the intended ranges. I am not sure if the solution is the nerf swashies/monks or to bring wizzies/rangers back up to the top of the DPS chain.</p><p>Has anyone else parsed this out over time and noticed this same disparity? Has anyone heard rumors of upcoming class adjustments to bring the DPS heirarchy back into line? I played a tank class for years in a high-end, full-time raiding guild in EQ1, and chose a scout in EQ2 to be a DPS class for a change of pace. I was intrigued by the swashy/brigand when I created my character, but it seemed that the DPS would be about the same as a ranger, with the difference being that the swashy would do most of their DPS from melee as opposed to range. I did not choose swashy as I wanted to be a ranged class this time. And, I would never have chosen a monk class with the intention of being a pure DPS character in EQ2. I hope that this can be leveled back out, as I do not want to level another class up just so that I can get group invites as a DPS.</p>

Shoenasty

03-26-2006, 10:03 PM

<div></div><div></div><p>I agree that DPS isn't what it should be. Ranger, assassin, conj, necro, wizzy, warlock should be top dps. All other classes I just listed also have more utility skills that they bring to a group or raid than the pred class does. Even the assassins have a buff to give some of their aggro to the tank and a poison proc they can put on someone. Rangers have basically nothing except pathfinding which doesn't do anyone any good really and now we have a hawk that deaggros some, that's really it.</p><p> </p><p>When parsing dps on raids, we are in the top tier dps most times but are still getting beat by swashies, monk, bruisers, zerkers, assassins, conj, wizzy, necros, warlocks WAY TOO MUCH. The thing that really irritates me is that we also have to pay for our dps with buying poisons and a crap load of arrows. Our auto archery will only hit for around 300 damage or so with low level arrows but will hit for 1300 - 1900 with lvl 60 arrows and you can get some nice crits too that hit for 3k or more sometimes..........BUT......we have to spend 7g per stack of lvl 60 arrows from merchants like in Eldarr Grove or pay up to 29g per stack from players selling them!!! Add in the poison costs too and look at the money we are spending to MAYBE get top tier dps! </p><p> </p><p>I don't know about the rest of you rangers out there, but I go through tons and tons of arrows at 7g per stack every night. You do the math and I'm sure you already have. We are getting screwed. Keep in mind that this is also if we work our butts off non stop with everything we can throw and using lvl 60 arrows and poisons just to keep up with other dps classes that are basically getting same or better dps for free and less work........well some are doing less work. I know most of the melee classes have to stick and move due to AE's and whatnot but casters really don't.</p><p> </p><p>I just really think that since rangers have to spend so much money for arrows and poisons ( less on poisons now that procs don't trigger so much ) and don't have really any good utility skills to offer groups or raids OTHER THAN DPS, and also that we have to work so hard to just keep up or possibly be top DPS some of the time, that we should be the top on every single target encounter without even sweating it. Not anything like before, but atleast by a small margin.</p><p> </p><p>Right now, there is just way too much expense and work just to be near the best dps for a non utility class. O.....and evac doesn't count in my opinion because it's not really providing much use on raids at most times and there are even several casters that get evac..........heck even SK's get evac. Can we mana feed or buff resistances and such? NO! What do we offer? DPS right? Is our DPS free like most other classes? No! It's pretty darn expensive! Do we stand still and just shoot arrows to get somewhat decent DPS? No! We are constantly moving to ranged, move to melee, find sweet-spot for both ranged + melee and pray you don't get killed by an AE, move back to ranged, hit every CA you own as soon as they repop, move back in to melee and hit every melee CA and so on over and over. Otherwise you won't even come close to top DPS.</p><p> </p><p>This is just what I've noticed while parsing raids and groups. I don't have all my skills at master or even adept 3's though either. I have a few adept 3's for the 61 - 70 CA's and the rest below 60 are all either master or adept 3's. Maybe if I had all masters and adept 3's for new CA's it would be better but that shouldn't be the fix here.</p><p>Message Edited by Shoenasty on <span class="date_text">03-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:19 PM</span></p>

Jay

03-27-2006, 02:34 AM

<div></div><p>Been parsed a lot more lately, and I can't say I really enjoy it, but it certainly does highlight the situation. Unfortunately, there are just too many variables for me to draw any kind of class-wide conclusions from my own experience. For example, I can't ever outdamage our wizzy if he actually has his hands on the keyboard - but he's 3 levels higher than me, has way better spell upgrades, and has more top-notch equipment. I'm often outdamaged by a swash, but same deal - he's 70 and I'm 67, and he's probably better equipped.</p><p>The wizzy I can live with, but seeing a class that gets much more utility (and supposedly trades off DPS for it) repeatedly out-do me is kinda discouraging. With the wizard, I can't help envying his freedom to stand still, fire off various nukes and DoTs, and walk away with top honors in every encounter. I'm constantly struggling for a correct position and range, especially on messy pulls or when the tank can't turn the mob - the wiz wastes NO time trying to get the stars to align so he can click the DPS button. Not saying casters have it all easy, but they certainly don't have to fulfill half the conditions that we do in order to land big damage.</p><p>I'm still having fun, I just don't really feel that effective anymore. At this point, I dunno if it's game mechanics or what anymore - I suspect that I just kinda suck. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Up until recently, I never really cared, but I'm being forced to take a look at my numbers and recognize that I'm not where I should be. I can't say if that's SOE's fault or my own, but I'm guess it's probably a little of both. Of course I'd like more of a DPS increase than we saw in LU21, but I'm not going to get my hopes up. For now, I'm just trying to do the best job I can with the tools I have.</p>

LoreLady

03-27-2006, 10:05 AM

"The wizzy I can live with, but seeing a class that gets much more utility (and supposedly trades off DPS for it) repeatedly out-do me is kinda discouraging. With the wizard, I can't help envying his freedom to stand still, fire off various nukes and DoTs, and walk away with top honors in every encounter. I'm constantly struggling for a correct position and range, especially on messy pulls or when the tank can't turn the mob - the wiz wastes NO time trying to get the stars to align so he can click the DPS button. Not saying casters have it all easy, but they certainly don't have to fulfill half the conditions that we do in order to land big damage."I dont like to compare myself to wizzys, because it is diffrent situational DPS. Rangers are supost to be geared more to single target, wizards AE dps alot more than we do. So, comparing a sorcs to preds is like comparing limes to watermellons <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Fennir

03-27-2006, 10:35 AM

er no, warlocks are the AoE masterswizards are supposed to be specialized towards single target (ice comet anyone?)anyways for the record pre-21 i was out-DPSd by wizards every so often but now none of the ones i've grouped or raided with have been able to compete. i've always been of the opinion that sorcerers in general need a little looking at dps-wise (not solo-wise). warlocks don't need more DPS but their agro control needs to be looked at. wizards could use a little bump imo.<div></div>

massem

03-27-2006, 12:52 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:er no, warlocks are the AoE masterswizards are supposed to be specialized towards single target (ice comet anyone?)anyways for the record pre-21 i was out-DPSd by wizards every so often but now none of the ones i've grouped or raided with have been able to compete. i've always been of the opinion that sorcerers in general need a little looking at dps-wise (not solo-wise). warlocks don't need more DPS but their agro control needs to be looked at. wizards could use a little bump imo.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It's amazing that there is at least one ranger who knows something about Sorcerers and how they play. This is giving me some hope for the ranger class :smileyhappy:</p><p> </p>

TofuPatty

03-27-2006, 03:56 PM

Heh there's more than one, I always felt bad for wizzies being outparsed badly on raids and warlocks and aggro... something definately has to be done about ae aggro. The problem with just flat out bumping up wizard dps is it will ramp up their solo ability even more. While it takes time, wizards can take down non-caster yellow ^^^s pretty easy as it stands, and have been able to since well - forever.<div></div>

Guy De Alsace

03-27-2006, 06:18 PM

I wasnt able to do poets last night because I ran out of arrows doing Nest earlier. This kind of thing is what brings Rangers down. Parrying too....when Sniper Shot gets parried i just want to log off it pees me off that much.<div></div>

Saihung23

03-27-2006, 08:50 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:er no, warlocks are the AoE masterswizards are supposed to be specialized towards single target (ice comet anyone?)anyways for the record pre-21 i was out-DPSd by wizards every so often but now none of the ones i've grouped or raided with have been able to compete. i've always been of the opinion that sorcerers in general need a little looking at dps-wise (not solo-wise). warlocks don't need more DPS but their agro control needs to be looked at. wizards could use a little bump imo.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It's amazing that there is at least one ranger who knows something about Sorcerers and how they play. This is giving me some hope for the ranger class :smileyhappy:</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>Personally I wish the wizard class the best. I just dont like them. heh. I guess I hold grudges. I hope that doesnt dash that hope you have for the ranger class. </p><p>Good Luck</p><p>Saihung</p>

Star

03-27-2006, 09:30 PM

<div>My DPS is definately up since LU21. I respeced my AAs and now use the focus line every time it's up and the DPS is definately up. However, I would be curious to see where my DPS would be if I didn't have the 22% chance to crit from my AAs. I think SOE needs to keep tweaking up, though I honestly doubt they will. Here's the problem with the PoV on the situation I think:</div><div> </div><div>"They are now increased to match the damage performance of an Assassin. The difference remains that Rangers have more ranged combat arts than Assassins, so they do have more combat arts that require slightly more casting time than Assassins."</div><div> </div><div>So we're supposed to be on par with Assassins DPS wise I would say. Out of all the T1 classes they're the ones that should be the closest and most easily compared. Forgive me if I'm wrong but wouldn't "match the damage performance of an Assassin" + "more combat arts that require slightly more casting time than Assassins" = LESS DPS. *shrug*</div><div> </div><div>All in all LU21 is a good start but a similar tweak to a few other CAs is in order I think.</div>

Fennir

03-27-2006, 09:33 PM

Pretty sure the point is that our ability to do our damage from range is offset by our casting times.I would guess that the devs believe skilled assassins should do slightly better than skilled rangers on single-target mobs who don't AE. This does not bother me.<div></div>

03-27-2006, 09:36 PM

<div></div><div>I finally can steal aggro from tanks again if I try hard <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ( thanks to Poise + focus aim mainly..).</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:36 AM</span></p>

Dirtgirl

03-27-2006, 09:50 PM

<div></div><div>Vines ---> Snipe ----> Devitalizing ---> Focus ---> Precise ---> Triple ---> Culling ---> Rain ---> and watch the crits fly with 8 points in Poise.Just don't yell at me if the tank yells at you!</div>

Fennir

03-27-2006, 09:51 PM

as i said in the ranger channel, i would have sex with poise if it was a chickand hot<div></div>

Dirtgirl

03-27-2006, 09:57 PM

<div></div>I'm betting you would even if she was a double bagger........

03-27-2006, 09:59 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><div>Vines ---> Snipe ----> Devitalizing ---> Focus ---> Precise ---> Triple ---> Culling ---> Rain ---> and watch the crits fly with 8 points in Poise.Just don't yell at me if the tank yells at you!</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah it's fun to be killing heroics ^^^ up to 64 again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Balerius

03-27-2006, 11:52 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:Pretty sure the point is that our ability to do our damage from range is offset by our casting times.I would guess that the devs believe skilled assassins should do slightly better than skilled rangers on single-target mobs who don't AE. This does not bother me.<div></div><hr></blockquote>At least 33% more damage by assassins on such mobs is more than "slightly better" and does bother me.

Lightomen

03-28-2006, 05:56 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><div>Vines ---> Snipe ----> Devitalizing ---> Focus ---> Precise ---> Triple ---> Culling ---> Rain ---> and watch the crits fly with <font color="#ffff00">8 points in Poise</font>.<hr></div></blockquote><p>My Problem with this is that you should not need to put AA pts to anything to get this type of DPS. AAs should not be used to DEFINE a class. In EQoA, if you were a ranger and went anything other than Hunter for your Class Mastery then you were looked at like a freak. I came to EQ2 to get away from that stupid system only to find Sony implementing one here.</p><p>I still think we need some upgrading and to support this here are some Parses from last night's raid of PPTR. The top assassin i these parses does have the final STR AA. So given the already short recast timers Assassins have this is silly. He could almost chain all his big attacks and never have to melee. I am using Grizzfazzles Bow, with a 80.8 DR (146-340) and delay of 6s. For melee I use Foreman's Shank (18-53)(1.5s) and Shortsword of Sorrow (14-43)(1.2s), both have a DR of 48.3.</p><p>Remains of a Failed Rader encounter (63^^^ Heroics) and they say they nerfed us for what the warlock did!!!!</p><p>Lv70 Warlock 67783 | 1,278.92Lv70 Nec Pet 41333 | 779.87Lv64 Wizard 33022 | 623.06Lv70 Assassin 31109 | 586.96Staghorn 27577 | 520.32Lv70 Paladin 25205 | 475.57Lv70 Swashie 25084 | 473.28Lv70 Assassin 22624 | 426.87Lv70 Guardian 22074 | 416.49</p><p>Allies: (00:54) 662277 | 12,264.39Lv70 Warlock 195276 | 3,616.22Lv70 Nec Pet 88690 | 1,642.41Lv64 Wizard 62843 | 1,163.76Lv70 Paladin 56075 | 1,038.43Staghorn 50724 | 939.33Lv70 Guardian 33009 | 611.28Lv70 Assassin 26410 | 489.07Lv70 Swashie 24784 | 458.96Lv61 Fury 23621 | 437.43</p><p>The Books of Death, Book of Power, and Book of Deception encounter (I had problems with positioning on this one and poison wore off part way through)</p><p>Allies: (02:51) 1035304 | 6,054.41Lv70 Assassin 109345 | 639.44Lv70 Nec Pet 104427 | 610.68Lv70 Assassin 100391 | 587.08Lv70 Swashie 99425 | 581.43Lv70 Warlock 67071 | 392.23Lv64 Wizard 59324 | 346.92Staghorn 59005 | 345.06Lv66 Bruiser 57244 | 334.76Lv67 Guardian 54611 | 319.36</p><p>Another Remains of a Failed Rader encounter.. Got to love the Warlock here, wonder why he gets invites to every instance group he can go to.</p><p>Allies: (00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 445815 | 11,731.97Lv70 Warlock 120599 | 3,173.66Lv70 Nec Pet 43432 | 1,142.95Lv64 Wizard 36524 | 961.16Lv70 Guardian 28252 | 743.47Lv70 Paladin 28165 | 741.18Lv61 Fury 27268 | 717.58Staghorn 24722 | 650.58Lv70 Assassin 23835 | 627.24Lv70 Swashie 19409 | 510.76</p><p>Allies: (00:47) 441640 | 9,396.60Lv70 Warlock 114926 | 2,445.23Lv64 Wizard 59884 | 1,274.13Lv70 Paladin 41115 | 874.79Lv61 Fury 30752 | 654.30Lv70 Guardian 24647 | 524.40Lv68 Fury (MT Healer) 20144 | 428.60Lv70 Assassin 19637 | 417.81Staghorn 18864 | 401.36Lv67 Guardian 16675 | 354.79</p><p>Akte'Hut the Eternal encounter:</p><p>Allies: (02:0<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 906036 | 7,078.41Lv70 Assassin 91526 | 715.05Lv70 Warlock 91346 | 713.64Lv70 Swashie 78049 | 609.76Lv70 Nec Pet 76031 | 593.99Lv66 Bruiser 55551 | 433.99Lv70 Assassin 54970 | 429.45Lv70 Paladin 52467 | 409.90Lv70 Guardian 50987 | 398.34Staghorn 48650 | 380.08</p><p>Remains of a Failed Raider encounter (I attacked as soon as the pull was made and did not wait. Had Brutal Instinct, Storm of Arrows and Selection up and managed to get all three chained)</p><p>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 458808 | 9,558.50Lv70 Warlock 170105 | 3,543.85Staghorn 60845 | 1,267.60Lv70 Guardian 36499 | 760.40Lv70 Swashie 29062 | 605.46Lv70 Paladin 28048 | 584.33Lv63 Bezerker 25242 | 525.88Lv61 Fury 16619 | 346.23Lv67 Guardian 14344 | 298.83Lv63 SK 14070 | 293.13</p><p>Krathuk the Golden encounter:</p><p>Allies: (01:50) 823224 | 7,483.85Lv70 Nec Pet 93435 | 849.41Lv70 Assassin 85594 | 778.13Lv70 Swashie 65747 | 597.70Lv70 Warlock 62409 | 567.35Lv70 Paladin 60914 | 553.76Lv66 Bruiser 56897 | 517.25Lv70 Assassin 53161 | 483.28Lv70 Guardian 47886 | 435.33Staghorn 46433 | 422.12</p><p>Any guesses here? Yep, It's a Remains of a Failed Raider encounter without Selection and Storm of Arrows. And notice the 4.1k DPS of the Warlock. I guess Sony missed that one.</p><p>Allies: (00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 467445 | 12,301.18Lv70 Warlock 158287 | 4,165.45Lv70 Nec Pet 57671 | 1,517.66Lv64 Wizard 44154 | 1,161.95Lv61 Fury 31054 | 817.21Lv70 Paladin 30837 | 811.50Lv70 Guardian 23644 | 622.21Lv70 Swashie 23495 | 618.29Lv70 Assassin 20063 | 527.97Staghorn 18016 | 474.11</p><p>Now we move on to Grand Palace Guardian encounters. At this point I started my own parser to verify guildie, only parsed myself so I could see my high hits.</p><p>Allies: (02:55) 1134255 | 6,481.46Lv70 Warlock 171961 | 982.63Lv70 Assassin 127071 | 726.12Lv70 Assassin 99466 | 568.38Lv70 Nec Pet 96883 | 553.62Lv70 Swashie 92888 | 530.79Staghorn 83428 | 476.73 Staghorn 2859:storm of arrows criticallyLv70 Guardian 79391 | 453.66Lv66 Bruiser 67257 | 384.33Lv64 Wizard 56556 | 323.18</p><p>Allies: (03:5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1387626 | 5,830.36Lv70 Assassin 177498 | 745.79Lv70 Warlock 141927 | 596.33Lv70 Assassin 138778 | 583.10Lv70 Swashie 120751 | 507.36Lv70 Nec Pet 110623 | 464.80Lv66 Bruiser 102463 | 430.52Staghorn 94844 | 398.50 Staghorn 5992:sniper shotLv70 Guardian 76510 | 321.47Lv70 Paladin 61642 | 259</p><p>All I have to say is "THANK GOD the 64 and 66 Zerkers are on break" or my ego would have taken a severe beating. One thing my ego hates to hear in Vent is "Open Wounds and Rampage".</p><p>I kind of get concerned when a class is doing enough DPS that they start talking about the STR/INT lines in AA, instead of the STR/AGI line, but I guess for Assassins that's par for the course.</p>

klepp

03-28-2006, 06:37 AM

<div></div>our dps fixed? Hrm.... gonna have to beg to differ.... first mob in trial4 our conj outdps'd me by 2x he did 1400something dps i did 700something... i wouldnt call that fixed =p

klepp

03-28-2006, 07:02 AM

<div></div>and even post LU21 ... im still having monks/bruisers consistantly beat me, swash usually beat me, zerker 1/2 the time beat me... and wiz warlock it depends.... makes me feel like [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].. what do i have to offer? medoicre dps ? or a filled spot on a raid?

Mirdo

03-28-2006, 11:20 AM

<div>Lightomen I'm sorry but I disagree with your comments about 'not have put AA's in anything to ge tthis type of DPS'. Do you think the other DPS classes are choosing AA's that don't raise their DPS? You have choice. You can choose any AA#s you want but if you want to maximise your DPS you will have to make appropriate choices. This applies across all classes and all skills and it not restricted to Rangers. You already say in your post the Assassin had hit STR line maxed for lower recsat timers - umm, he did that for a reason.</div><div> </div><div>I'll be raiding tonight and we should have an Assassin and wizzy along, both equal to or greater than my level. The Assassin has more AA than me. I'll post my findings tomorrow. What I do know is that in groups, with focus up and only 3 pts in our crit AA so far I can get up to two 4k autoattacks (more usually 3k) against mobs 2 levels higher as well as the CA's I manage to get off in 10 seconds - usually devit, Culling, triple and one other short cast (this after debuffing).</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div>

massem

03-28-2006, 01:47 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>our dps fixed? Hrm.... gonna have to beg to differ.... first mob in trial4 our conj outdps'd me by 2x he did 1400something dps i did 700something... i wouldnt call that fixed =p<hr></blockquote>That only indicates that your DPS has been fixed and Conjurers have not (yet).</span><div></div>

ReynardTheFox

03-28-2006, 03:07 PM

<div></div>There are a number of variables that Rangers now have to consider when maximising our DPS.For one, have capped strength is almost essential. Using haste items and haste and dps buffs.I raided last night and i had a 100% dps buff though my haste was only at 43% before application of any short-term haste CAs. I had sorely low strength (405) though due to group composition but I was hitting around 750-1000dps regularly on boss mobs. On AE encounters if Rain was up, I would always be top since I have the master I version and also Selection at master II.I'd also recommend having a separate chat box purely for observing YOUR attacks so that you can fire your CAs in between ranged auto-attacks.I still think we need about a 20% increase in dps to offset our lack of utility. We also need Stream of Arrows to be fixed, if the idiot devs can ever get off their [Removed for Content] and look into a skill they broke.As it currently stands the summoners are the dps kings and that cannot be right. I don't want them nerfed though I want predators beefed up.<div></div><p>Message Edited by ReynardTheFox on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:11 AM</span></p>

Jay

03-28-2006, 11:06 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ReynardTheFox wrote:<div></div>As it currently stands the summoners are the dps kings and that cannot be right. I don't want them nerfed though I want predators beefed up.<div></div><p></p><hr></blockquote>I really don't think that's the answer. While I agree that we could use a boost to our damage output across the board, it just doesn't make sense to try to raise the DPS of four different classes to put them ahead of the two classes that are doing too much damage. Then the remaining T2 DPS classes are left in Tier 2.5, while T1 classes would out-do everyone to such a degree as to be severely unbalancing. As much as I hate to endorse a nerf to ANY class, it's just plain obvious that summoners are way beyond their intended damage role. Just tone down the summoners' DPS to be in-line with the intended output of other Tier 2 classes and we're that much closer to a sensible DPS balance.

Deml

03-28-2006, 11:10 PM

<div></div>I have 416 unbuffed strength. On raids I'm at 550ish str easily, and 90-100% haste and I still get beat out by our guild monk in dps while he's in defensive. I think if our buff that gives a permanent haste (can't remember it's name off hand) also gave a bonus to dps, say 25-30% at master 1 level, we might be fine on things.

Balerius

03-28-2006, 11:14 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>our dps fixed? Hrm.... gonna have to beg to differ.... first mob in trial4 our conj outdps'd me by 2x he did 1400something dps i did 700something... i wouldnt call that fixed =p<hr></blockquote>That only indicates that your DPS has been fixed and Conjurers have not (yet).</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>When the assassins in my guild did 1100-1200 on that fight, I'd say that indicates that we rangers have not had our dps "fixed".</p><p>I couldn't care less about summoner dps. I would like, however, to have equivalent dps to our brother predators the assassins. And I would like to have dps that allows me to routinely out-dps brigands, swashbucklers, monks/bruisers, and berserkers. Currently that is not the case.</p>

Graton

03-30-2006, 11:33 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Lightomen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><div>Vines ---> Snipe ----> Devitalizing ---> Focus ---> Precise ---> Triple ---> Culling ---> Rain ---> and watch the crits fly with <font color="#ffff00">8 points in Poise</font>.<hr></div></blockquote><p>My Problem with this is that you should not need to put AA pts to anything to get this type of DPS. AAs should not be used to DEFINE a class. In EQoA, if you were a ranger and went anything other than Hunter for your Class Mastery then you were looked at like a freak. I came to EQ2 to get away from that stupid system only to find Sony implementing one here.</p><p>I still think we need some upgrading and to support this here are some Parses from last night's raid of PPTR. The top assassin i these parses does have the final STR AA. So given the already short recast timers Assassins have this is silly. He could almost chain all his big attacks and never have to melee. I am using Grizzfazzles Bow, with a 80.8 DR (146-340) and delay of 6s. For melee I use Foreman's Shank (18-53)(1.5s) and Shortsword of Sorrow (14-43)(1.2s), both have a DR of 48.3.</p><p>Remains of a Failed Rader encounter (63^^^ Heroics) and they say they nerfed us for what the warlock did!!!!</p><p>Lv70 Warlock 67783 | 1,278.92Lv70 Nec Pet 41333 | 779.87Lv64 Wizard 33022 | 623.06Lv70 Assassin 31109 | 586.96Staghorn 27577 | 520.32Lv70 Paladin 25205 | 475.57Lv70 Swashie 25084 | 473.28Lv70 Assassin 22624 | 426.87Lv70 Guardian 22074 | 416.49</p><p>Allies: (00:54) 662277 | 12,264.39Lv70 Warlock 195276 | 3,616.22Lv70 Nec Pet 88690 | 1,642.41Lv64 Wizard 62843 | 1,163.76Lv70 Paladin 56075 | 1,038.43Staghorn 50724 | 939.33Lv70 Guardian 33009 | 611.28Lv70 Assassin 26410 | 489.07Lv70 Swashie 24784 | 458.96Lv61 Fury 23621 | 437.43</p><p>The Books of Death, Book of Power, and Book of Deception encounter (I had problems with positioning on this one and poison wore off part way through)</p><p>Allies: (02:51) 1035304 | 6,054.41Lv70 Assassin 109345 | 639.44Lv70 Nec Pet 104427 | 610.68Lv70 Assassin 100391 | 587.08Lv70 Swashie 99425 | 581.43Lv70 Warlock 67071 | 392.23Lv64 Wizard 59324 | 346.92Staghorn 59005 | 345.06Lv66 Bruiser 57244 | 334.76Lv67 Guardian 54611 | 319.36</p><p>Another Remains of a Failed Rader encounter.. Got to love the Warlock here, wonder why he gets invites to every instance group he can go to.</p><p>Allies: (00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 445815 | 11,731.97Lv70 Warlock 120599 | 3,173.66Lv70 Nec Pet 43432 | 1,142.95Lv64 Wizard 36524 | 961.16Lv70 Guardian 28252 | 743.47Lv70 Paladin 28165 | 741.18Lv61 Fury 27268 | 717.58Staghorn 24722 | 650.58Lv70 Assassin 23835 | 627.24Lv70 Swashie 19409 | 510.76</p><p>Allies: (00:47) 441640 | 9,396.60Lv70 Warlock 114926 | 2,445.23Lv64 Wizard 59884 | 1,274.13Lv70 Paladin 41115 | 874.79Lv61 Fury 30752 | 654.30Lv70 Guardian 24647 | 524.40Lv68 Fury (MT Healer) 20144 | 428.60Lv70 Assassin 19637 | 417.81Staghorn 18864 | 401.36Lv67 Guardian 16675 | 354.79</p><p>Akte'Hut the Eternal encounter:</p><p>Allies: (02:0<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 906036 | 7,078.41Lv70 Assassin 91526 | 715.05Lv70 Warlock 91346 | 713.64Lv70 Swashie 78049 | 609.76Lv70 Nec Pet 76031 | 593.99Lv66 Bruiser 55551 | 433.99Lv70 Assassin 54970 | 429.45Lv70 Paladin 52467 | 409.90Lv70 Guardian 50987 | 398.34Staghorn 48650 | 380.08</p><p>Remains of a Failed Raider encounter (I attacked as soon as the pull was made and did not wait. Had Brutal Instinct, Storm of Arrows and Selection up and managed to get all three chained)</p><p>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 458808 | 9,558.50Lv70 Warlock 170105 | 3,543.85Staghorn 60845 | 1,267.60Lv70 Guardian 36499 | 760.40Lv70 Swashie 29062 | 605.46Lv70 Paladin 28048 | 584.33Lv63 Bezerker 25242 | 525.88Lv61 Fury 16619 | 346.23Lv67 Guardian 14344 | 298.83Lv63 SK 14070 | 293.13</p><p>Krathuk the Golden encounter:</p><p>Allies: (01:50) 823224 | 7,483.85Lv70 Nec Pet 93435 | 849.41Lv70 Assassin 85594 | 778.13Lv70 Swashie 65747 | 597.70Lv70 Warlock 62409 | 567.35Lv70 Paladin 60914 | 553.76Lv66 Bruiser 56897 | 517.25Lv70 Assassin 53161 | 483.28Lv70 Guardian 47886 | 435.33Staghorn 46433 | 422.12</p><p>Any guesses here? Yep, It's a Remains of a Failed Raider encounter without Selection and Storm of Arrows. And notice the 4.1k DPS of the Warlock. I guess Sony missed that one.</p><p>Allies: (00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 467445 | 12,301.18Lv70 Warlock 158287 | 4,165.45Lv70 Nec Pet 57671 | 1,517.66Lv64 Wizard 44154 | 1,161.95Lv61 Fury 31054 | 817.21Lv70 Paladin 30837 | 811.50Lv70 Guardian 23644 | 622.21Lv70 Swashie 23495 | 618.29Lv70 Assassin 20063 | 527.97Staghorn 18016 | 474.11</p><p>Now we move on to Grand Palace Guardian encounters. At this point I started my own parser to verify guildie, only parsed myself so I could see my high hits.</p><p>Allies: (02:55) 1134255 | 6,481.46Lv70 Warlock 171961 | 982.63Lv70 Assassin 127071 | 726.12Lv70 Assassin 99466 | 568.38Lv70 Nec Pet 96883 | 553.62Lv70 Swashie 92888 | 530.79Staghorn 83428 | 476.73 Staghorn 2859:storm of arrows criticallyLv70 Guardian 79391 | 453.66Lv66 Bruiser 67257 | 384.33Lv64 Wizard 56556 | 323.18</p><p>Allies: (03:5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1387626 | 5,830.36Lv70 Assassin 177498 | 745.79Lv70 Warlock 141927 | 596.33Lv70 Assassin 138778 | 583.10Lv70 Swashie 120751 | 507.36Lv70 Nec Pet 110623 | 464.80Lv66 Bruiser 102463 | 430.52Staghorn 94844 | 398.50 Staghorn 5992:sniper shotLv70 Guardian 76510 | 321.47Lv70 Paladin 61642 | 259</p><p>All I have to say is "THANK GOD the 64 and 66 Zerkers are on break" or my ego would have taken a severe beating. One thing my ego hates to hear in Vent is "Open Wounds and Rampage".</p><p>I kind of get concerned when a class is doing enough DPS that they start talking about the STR/INT lines in AA, instead of the STR/AGI line, but I guess for Assassins that's par for the course.</p><hr></blockquote>you conveniently picked the only t6/t7 raid zone where there are zero aoe's to illustrate a point about assassins outdps'ing rangers. also this is a bunch of lvl 70 people vs a tier 6 zone, it's meaningless. who caers who can do what against ridiculously trivial content. this 'analysis' aint' worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. go parse lab of lord vyemm or a hurricanus fight where there are significant devstating ae's involved and then tell us how you do vs melee classes.</span><div></div>

03-31-2006, 02:33 AM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Lightomen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><div>Vines ---> Snipe ----> Devitalizing ---> Focus ---> Precise ---> Triple ---> Culling ---> Rain ---> and watch the crits fly with <font color="#ffff00">8 points in Poise</font>.<hr></div></blockquote><p>My Problem with this is that you should not need to put AA pts to anything to get this type of DPS. AAs should not be used to DEFINE a class. In EQoA, if you were a ranger and went anything other than Hunter for your Class Mastery then you were looked at like a freak. I came to EQ2 to get away from that stupid system only to find Sony implementing one here.</p><p>I still think we need some upgrading and to support this here are some Parses from last night's raid of PPTR. <strong>The top assassin i these parses does have the final STR AA. So given the already short recast timers Assassins have this is silly. He could almost chain all his big attacks and never have to melee</strong>. I am using Grizzfazzles Bow, with a 80.8 DR (146-340) and delay of 6s. For melee I use Foreman's Shank (18-53)(1.5s) and Shortsword of Sorrow (14-43)(1.2s), both have a DR of 48.3.</p><p>Remains of a Failed Rader encounter (63^^^ Heroics) and they say they nerfed us for what the warlock did!!!!</p><p>Lv70 Warlock 67783 | 1,278.92Lv70 Nec Pet 41333 | 779.87Lv64 Wizard 33022 | 623.06Lv70 Assassin 31109 | 586.96Staghorn 27577 | 520.32Lv70 Paladin 25205 | 475.57Lv70 Swashie 25084 | 473.28Lv70 Assassin 22624 | 426.87Lv70 Guardian 22074 | 416.49</p><p>Allies: (00:54) 662277 | 12,264.39Lv70 Warlock 195276 | 3,616.22Lv70 Nec Pet 88690 | 1,642.41Lv64 Wizard 62843 | 1,163.76Lv70 Paladin 56075 | 1,038.43Staghorn 50724 | 939.33Lv70 Guardian 33009 | 611.28Lv70 Assassin 26410 | 489.07Lv70 Swashie 24784 | 458.96Lv61 Fury 23621 | 437.43</p><p>The Books of Death, Book of Power, and Book of Deception encounter (I had problems with positioning on this one and poison wore off part way through)</p><p>Allies: (02:51) 1035304 | 6,054.41Lv70 Assassin 109345 | 639.44Lv70 Nec Pet 104427 | 610.68Lv70 Assassin 100391 | 587.08Lv70 Swashie 99425 | 581.43Lv70 Warlock 67071 | 392.23Lv64 Wizard 59324 | 346.92Staghorn 59005 | 345.06Lv66 Bruiser 57244 | 334.76Lv67 Guardian 54611 | 319.36</p><p>Another Remains of a Failed Rader encounter.. Got to love the Warlock here, wonder why he gets invites to every instance group he can go to.</p><p>Allies: (00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 445815 | 11,731.97Lv70 Warlock 120599 | 3,173.66Lv70 Nec Pet 43432 | 1,142.95Lv64 Wizard 36524 | 961.16Lv70 Guardian 28252 | 743.47Lv70 Paladin 28165 | 741.18Lv61 Fury 27268 | 717.58Staghorn 24722 | 650.58Lv70 Assassin 23835 | 627.24Lv70 Swashie 19409 | 510.76</p><p>Allies: (00:47) 441640 | 9,396.60Lv70 Warlock 114926 | 2,445.23Lv64 Wizard 59884 | 1,274.13Lv70 Paladin 41115 | 874.79Lv61 Fury 30752 | 654.30Lv70 Guardian 24647 | 524.40Lv68 Fury (MT Healer) 20144 | 428.60Lv70 Assassin 19637 | 417.81Staghorn 18864 | 401.36Lv67 Guardian 16675 | 354.79</p><p>Akte'Hut the Eternal encounter:</p><p>Allies: (02:0<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 906036 | 7,078.41Lv70 Assassin 91526 | 715.05Lv70 Warlock 91346 | 713.64Lv70 Swashie 78049 | 609.76Lv70 Nec Pet 76031 | 593.99Lv66 Bruiser 55551 | 433.99Lv70 Assassin 54970 | 429.45Lv70 Paladin 52467 | 409.90Lv70 Guardian 50987 | 398.34Staghorn 48650 | 380.08</p><p>Remains of a Failed Raider encounter (I attacked as soon as the pull was made and did not wait. Had Brutal Instinct, Storm of Arrows and Selection up and managed to get all three chained)</p><p>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 458808 | 9,558.50Lv70 Warlock 170105 | 3,543.85Staghorn 60845 | 1,267.60Lv70 Guardian 36499 | 760.40Lv70 Swashie 29062 | 605.46Lv70 Paladin 28048 | 584.33Lv63 Bezerker 25242 | 525.88Lv61 Fury 16619 | 346.23Lv67 Guardian 14344 | 298.83Lv63 SK 14070 | 293.13</p><p>Krathuk the Golden encounter:</p><p>Allies: (01:50) 823224 | 7,483.85Lv70 Nec Pet 93435 | 849.41Lv70 Assassin 85594 | 778.13Lv70 Swashie 65747 | 597.70Lv70 Warlock 62409 | 567.35Lv70 Paladin 60914 | 553.76Lv66 Bruiser 56897 | 517.25Lv70 Assassin 53161 | 483.28Lv70 Guardian 47886 | 435.33Staghorn 46433 | 422.12</p><p>Any guesses here? Yep, It's a Remains of a Failed Raider encounter without Selection and Storm of Arrows. And notice the 4.1k DPS of the Warlock. I guess Sony missed that one.</p><p>Allies: (00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 467445 | 12,301.18Lv70 Warlock 158287 | 4,165.45Lv70 Nec Pet 57671 | 1,517.66Lv64 Wizard 44154 | 1,161.95Lv61 Fury 31054 | 817.21Lv70 Paladin 30837 | 811.50Lv70 Guardian 23644 | 622.21Lv70 Swashie 23495 | 618.29Lv70 Assassin 20063 | 527.97Staghorn 18016 | 474.11</p><p>Now we move on to Grand Palace Guardian encounters. At this point I started my own parser to verify guildie, only parsed myself so I could see my high hits.</p><p>Allies: (02:55) 1134255 | 6,481.46Lv70 Warlock 171961 | 982.63Lv70 Assassin 127071 | 726.12Lv70 Assassin 99466 | 568.38Lv70 Nec Pet 96883 | 553.62Lv70 Swashie 92888 | 530.79Staghorn 83428 | 476.73 Staghorn 2859:storm of arrows criticallyLv70 Guardian 79391 | 453.66Lv66 Bruiser 67257 | 384.33Lv64 Wizard 56556 | 323.18</p><p>Allies: (03:5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1387626 | 5,830.36Lv70 Assassin 177498 | 745.79Lv70 Warlock 141927 | 596.33Lv70 Assassin 138778 | 583.10Lv70 Swashie 120751 | 507.36Lv70 Nec Pet 110623 | 464.80Lv66 Bruiser 102463 | 430.52Staghorn 94844 | 398.50 Staghorn 5992:sniper shotLv70 Guardian 76510 | 321.47Lv70 Paladin 61642 | 259</p><p>All I have to say is "THANK GOD the 64 and 66 Zerkers are on break" or my ego would have taken a severe beating. One thing my ego hates to hear in Vent is "Open Wounds and Rampage".</p><p>I kind of get concerned when a class is doing enough DPS that they start talking about the STR/INT lines in AA, instead of the STR/AGI line, but I guess for Assassins that's par for the course.</p><hr></blockquote><p>My main problem is that you are comparing yourself to level 70 who most likely have their T7 skills at least to adept 1 if not higher whereas you are not 70 and still mostly using T6 CAs....( you mention storm of arrows, brutal instinct....)</p><p>Your point about the top assassin having the top STR AA is not much valid either. It does not affect CAs with short recast timers as you seem to imply....</p><p>As for chaining Brutal instinct, storm of arrows and selection, good for you, but chaining them does strictly nothing. Brutal instinct does not affect CA damage....</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:39 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:40 PM</span></p>

TwistedFaith

03-31-2006, 03:47 AM

The way I see it the DPS tiers have become far more closer together since the introduction of AP skills.There are certain classes who just like us have strived to max out critical hits etc. Take a monk for example they can max out critical hits, now when you add in their uber haste then their dps flys.Summoners are in a world of their own at the moment, even with a severe nerf they are in my opnion still going to be right up there with the best dps classes. Personally I dont think SoE will nerf summoners that much at all, why bother?Rangers got nerfed because of the procs, it wasnt because we were doing unacceptable damage, I feel it was more to simply make it easier for soe to control the class.Nerfing summoners serves no real purpose for SoE, yes they are overpowered everyone know's it, but it's not game breaking.As for rangers, well we're lacking really and seeing as in my opinion we have nothing but DPS to offer a group it's a pretty sad state. Solo'ing whilst easier since the patch is never going to be as strong as it was.Summoners and Wizzys have the advantage of decent roots, and not needing vast play areas to kite.Rangers CA's are still so very poor in terms of base dmg, triple shot is a perfect example of a vastly underpowered skill. Same with precise shot, they simply dont hit hard enough.

TwistedFaith

03-31-2006, 03:54 AM

<blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>our dps fixed? Hrm.... gonna have to beg to differ.... first mob in trial4 our conj outdps'd me by 2x he did 1400something dps i did 700something... i wouldnt call that fixed =p<hr></blockquote>I had a very similar experience, and it shocked me to see just how far ahead a well played conjurer is.I was lvl 70 in the nest with a lvl 67 conjurer tagging along. I am all master/adept3's and striving to plow as many points as possible into increasing my critical attacks.We get to the final guy, I load the parser and go all out to see how much damage I do in comparison to the conjurer.So there I was chaining skills, like poetry in motion, using as many skills as I possible could. I used focus and had a series of critial hits and thought I had done some serious damage.I pasted the parse and my jaw dropped, I swear the conjurer did twice as much damage as me. I ended up around 650-700DPS, whilst he was just over 1.2k.That basically just showed me that there was nothing I could do to close that gap, if the mechanics of the game are against you then your screwed, I dont care how good a player you are. I had litteraly attacked non stop and had done everything I could to get my DPS up and still couldnt come close.

klepp

03-31-2006, 05:13 AM

<div></div>careful valleyboy, soon a chosen few are gonna chime in an d tell ya that your not playing your class right and ask you about all kindsa variables trying to justify why you were outdpsd when its really simple. Theres still many in denail or something. You shouldnt have to balls out have the best gear/spells and go Awall without even stopping to sneeze at the risk of losing dps to hope to out do a t2 or t3 dps class..... couldnt have said it better. Bravo

massem

03-31-2006, 08:21 PM

<div>The reason ranger DPS varies is the same as why assassin DPS varies. Poor group setup, using low quality CAs, weapons or poisons, mob resists, mobv AEs, slacking etc .... Compare a ranger to an assassin on an AE mob and the picture will be different.</div>

TerriBlades

04-02-2006, 07:33 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div>The reason ranger DPS varies is the same as why assassin DPS varies. Poor group setup, using low quality CAs, weapons or poisons, mob resists, mobv AEs, slacking etc .... <font color="#ff0000">Compare a ranger to an assassin on an AE mob and the picture will be different.</font></div><hr></blockquote><p>I couldnt agree more here. During raids, we usually have one ranger (myself) and one assassin. If the mob in question happens to have an AE, and the timer hasnt been figured out (and sometimes when it has) the assassin rarely lives to see the end of the fight. Real hard to put up serious DPS numbers when you're dead, and any ranger wielding a longbow is almost always out of range of an AE if they are max distance. Other things that you all have to consider is that DPS is <strong>purely situational</strong>. Warlocks are always going to have the best numbers on multi-mob encounters, and I for one can live with this, for thats what they are good at, but flip it around and make the encounter single target, and you wont see them doing that insane damage. Rangers shouldn't be on top all the time... the only thing that I see during raids that I dont care for (and has pretty much become a running joke now) are the pet classes. With the changes I can finally out DPS the conjours pet... however, roll his pet and his own damage together and its a different story.</p><p> </p><p>On a final note, I donno how many of you have tried this, but Focus Aim and Stream of Arrows work very nicely together (combine with the 35% reduction to casting timers) your first 6-8 hits are usually crits for 900-1100 and I use this as often as possible during raids. Try it, you might like it. And as an added bonus (not sure if its intended or not... prolly not) cast Stream first, then a second or two later Focus... and Ive noticed that you can cast this between shots on Stream, so even if Focus isnt up when you start, it might be before Stream is finished.</p><p> </p><p>Nesse</p><p>70 Ranger / Oasis</p><p>Message Edited by TerriBlades on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:35 PM</span></p>

Juniger

04-02-2006, 12:49 PM

<div></div><p>I just wish they'd lower the price of arrows, spending 2 plat a day gets expensive. I only complain about the damage I do when I here casters crying that they still don't do as much as they should besides that i'm good.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Dizzle D' Nizzle</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Dizzle</p>

Kaleyen

04-02-2006, 07:43 PM

I'd also like to post my experiences on such a thing.First off when it comes to gear and CA's...all my gear is the pristine stuff for T5 minus my fabled shoulders and bracers. 80% of my CA's are Master I or Master II and 10% are at Adept III (The great thing of rerolling around, I was able to get some great Masters and great Gear).Ok, I was in a cache group the other night and I had ACT up because I wanted to see what I could do. In my groups when I was in the 40s I was always near the top when it came to DPS and I wanted to see how I parsed in a 50s group. First off I didn't even compare my DPS to those in the group that were over two levels higher then myself, so that left me battling with the 51 Bruiser for DPS. In the Cache everything is yellow to me except for the Named, they're orange, so I didn't expect to out DPS anyone on them because of my sheer level.So the results you may be asking? I think I maybe out damaged the Bruiser twice...maybe. I remember doing it once but I want to give myself the benefit of the doubt and say I did it twice. After the first fight I really couldn't believe my eyes but as we started to clear the zone I had to just sit back and take that DPS wise thus far I'm subpar, at best.<div></div>

Infinity0

04-02-2006, 10:49 PM

<div></div>I normally like to chat to high level rangers on my server for tactis and such, the last few days there have been 3x as many brigands compared to high level rangers. I searched eq stats, and the Brigand is the lowest rolled population class. Alot of people are very happy with the state of rangers, but it appears a great deal of people that do no bother to post here feel otherwise.<div></div>

Carna

04-03-2006, 03:17 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Infinity0 wrote:<div></div>I normally like to chat to high level rangers on my server for tactis and such, the last few days there have been 3x as many brigands compared to high level rangers. I searched eq stats, and the Brigand is the lowest rolled population class. Alot of people are very happy with the state of rangers, but it appears a great deal of people that do no bother to post here feel otherwise.<div></div><hr></blockquote>What server do you play on? I'd like to pop over and check that for myself. On my server there are fewer Brigands than any other class incluing Coercers at every level. On Splitpaw there are often as many "high level Rangers" as there are total brigand population including today.

Infinity0

04-03-2006, 04:16 AM

Well today there sure was not for me!!!<div></div>

klepp

04-03-2006, 04:27 AM

<div></div>well, now up to 19 master spells.. rest all adept3... using adamantine arrows with 33aa points maxed ranged crit and 35% reduction in cast timers w/ t7dd poison and tonight as raid is going on in lab, so far closest ive been to the top of the dps parse is 3rd and that was one time only. Conjurors are both out dps'ing me by 400+ dps and im lagging a bit behind our monk and our bruiser. With our dirge and swash riding my butt. and i can assure you none of the above have as many masters nor as many adept3. However some may have a couple more aa. Something doesnt seem right to me? Sure im happy we have a short duration root, and an improved chance to crit every minute but...... unfortunately thats not enough.

Carna

04-03-2006, 04:41 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Infinity0 wrote:Well today there sure was not for me!!!<div></div><hr></blockquote>Which server?

pharacyde

04-03-2006, 06:38 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lightomen wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><div>Vines ---> Snipe ----> Devitalizing ---> Focus ---> Precise ---> Triple ---> Culling ---> Rain ---> and watch the crits fly with <font color="#ffff00">8 points in Poise</font>.<hr></div></blockquote><p>My Problem with this is that you should not need to put AA pts to anything to get this type of DPS. AAs should not be used to DEFINE a class. In EQoA, if you were a ranger and went anything other than Hunter for your Class Mastery then you were looked at like a freak. I came to EQ2 to get away from that stupid system only to find Sony implementing one here.</p><p>I still think we need some upgrading and to support this here are some Parses from last night's raid of PPTR. The top assassin i these parses does have the final STR AA. So given the already short recast timers Assassins have this is silly. He could almost chain all his big attacks and never have to melee. I am using Grizzfazzles Bow, with a 80.8 DR (146-340) and delay of 6s. For melee I use Foreman's Shank (18-53)(1.5s) and Shortsword of Sorrow (14-43)(1.2s), both have a DR of 48.3.</p><p>Remains of a Failed Rader encounter (63^^^ Heroics) and they say they nerfed us for what the warlock did!!!!</p><p>Lv70 Warlock 67783 | 1,278.92Lv70 Nec Pet 41333 | 779.87Lv64 Wizard 33022 | 623.06Lv70 Assassin 31109 | 586.96Staghorn 27577 | 520.32Lv70 Paladin 25205 | 475.57Lv70 Swashie 25084 | 473.28Lv70 Assassin 22624 | 426.87Lv70 Guardian 22074 | 416.49</p><p>Allies: (00:54) 662277 | 12,264.39Lv70 Warlock 195276 | 3,616.22Lv70 Nec Pet 88690 | 1,642.41Lv64 Wizard 62843 | 1,163.76Lv70 Paladin 56075 | 1,038.43Staghorn 50724 | 939.33Lv70 Guardian 33009 | 611.28Lv70 Assassin 26410 | 489.07Lv70 Swashie 24784 | 458.96Lv61 Fury 23621 | 437.43</p><p>The Books of Death, Book of Power, and Book of Deception encounter (I had problems with positioning on this one and poison wore off part way through)</p><p>Allies: (02:51) 1035304 | 6,054.41Lv70 Assassin 109345 | 639.44Lv70 Nec Pet 104427 | 610.68Lv70 Assassin 100391 | 587.08Lv70 Swashie 99425 | 581.43Lv70 Warlock 67071 | 392.23Lv64 Wizard 59324 | 346.92Staghorn 59005 | 345.06Lv66 Bruiser 57244 | 334.76Lv67 Guardian 54611 | 319.36</p><p>Another Remains of a Failed Rader encounter.. Got to love the Warlock here, wonder why he gets invites to every instance group he can go to.</p><p>Allies: (00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 445815 | 11,731.97Lv70 Warlock 120599 | 3,173.66Lv70 Nec Pet 43432 | 1,142.95Lv64 Wizard 36524 | 961.16Lv70 Guardian 28252 | 743.47Lv70 Paladin 28165 | 741.18Lv61 Fury 27268 | 717.58Staghorn 24722 | 650.58Lv70 Assassin 23835 | 627.24Lv70 Swashie 19409 | 510.76</p><p>Allies: (00:47) 441640 | 9,396.60Lv70 Warlock 114926 | 2,445.23Lv64 Wizard 59884 | 1,274.13Lv70 Paladin 41115 | 874.79Lv61 Fury 30752 | 654.30Lv70 Guardian 24647 | 524.40Lv68 Fury (MT Healer) 20144 | 428.60Lv70 Assassin 19637 | 417.81Staghorn 18864 | 401.36Lv67 Guardian 16675 | 354.79</p><p>Akte'Hut the Eternal encounter:</p><p>Allies: (02:0<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 906036 | 7,078.41Lv70 Assassin 91526 | 715.05Lv70 Warlock 91346 | 713.64Lv70 Swashie 78049 | 609.76Lv70 Nec Pet 76031 | 593.99Lv66 Bruiser 55551 | 433.99Lv70 Assassin 54970 | 429.45Lv70 Paladin 52467 | 409.90Lv70 Guardian 50987 | 398.34Staghorn 48650 | 380.08</p><p>Remains of a Failed Raider encounter (I attacked as soon as the pull was made and did not wait. Had Brutal Instinct, Storm of Arrows and Selection up and managed to get all three chained)</p><p>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 458808 | 9,558.50Lv70 Warlock 170105 | 3,543.85Staghorn 60845 | 1,267.60Lv70 Guardian 36499 | 760.40Lv70 Swashie 29062 | 605.46Lv70 Paladin 28048 | 584.33Lv63 Bezerker 25242 | 525.88Lv61 Fury 16619 | 346.23Lv67 Guardian 14344 | 298.83Lv63 SK 14070 | 293.13</p><p>Krathuk the Golden encounter:</p><p>Allies: (01:50) 823224 | 7,483.85Lv70 Nec Pet 93435 | 849.41Lv70 Assassin 85594 | 778.13Lv70 Swashie 65747 | 597.70Lv70 Warlock 62409 | 567.35Lv70 Paladin 60914 | 553.76Lv66 Bruiser 56897 | 517.25Lv70 Assassin 53161 | 483.28Lv70 Guardian 47886 | 435.33Staghorn 46433 | 422.12</p><p>Any guesses here? Yep, It's a Remains of a Failed Raider encounter without Selection and Storm of Arrows. And notice the 4.1k DPS of the Warlock. I guess Sony missed that one.</p><p>Allies: (00:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 467445 | 12,301.18Lv70 Warlock 158287 | 4,165.45Lv70 Nec Pet 57671 | 1,517.66Lv64 Wizard 44154 | 1,161.95Lv61 Fury 31054 | 817.21Lv70 Paladin 30837 | 811.50Lv70 Guardian 23644 | 622.21Lv70 Swashie 23495 | 618.29Lv70 Assassin 20063 | 527.97Staghorn 18016 | 474.11</p><p>Now we move on to Grand Palace Guardian encounters. At this point I started my own parser to verify guildie, only parsed myself so I could see my high hits.</p><p>Allies: (02:55) 1134255 | 6,481.46Lv70 Warlock 171961 | 982.63Lv70 Assassin 127071 | 726.12Lv70 Assassin 99466 | 568.38Lv70 Nec Pet 96883 | 553.62Lv70 Swashie 92888 | 530.79Staghorn 83428 | 476.73 Staghorn 2859:storm of arrows criticallyLv70 Guardian 79391 | 453.66Lv66 Bruiser 67257 | 384.33Lv64 Wizard 56556 | 323.18</p><p>Allies: (03:5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1387626 | 5,830.36Lv70 Assassin 177498 | 745.79Lv70 Warlock 141927 | 596.33Lv70 Assassin 138778 | 583.10Lv70 Swashie 120751 | 507.36Lv70 Nec Pet 110623 | 464.80Lv66 Bruiser 102463 | 430.52Staghorn 94844 | 398.50 Staghorn 5992:sniper shotLv70 Guardian 76510 | 321.47Lv70 Paladin 61642 | 259</p><p>All I have to say is "THANK GOD the 64 and 66 Zerkers are on break" or my ego would have taken a severe beating. One thing my ego hates to hear in Vent is "Open Wounds and Rampage".</p><p>I kind of get concerned when a class is doing enough DPS that they start talking about the STR/INT lines in AA, instead of the STR/AGI line, but I guess for Assassins that's par for the course.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Well *G* what a great guild, looking for balance on T6 content. And for your information those high dps burst from warlock are on encounters with 20mobs that you can only find in pptr. So how more situational can you be ? It's not even a good place to compare.</p><p>You are like asking for a nerf cause you can not do what you want to do with your class? You are blaming warlocks cause of your low dps? How does a warlock relate to a ranger anyway for AoE encounters. Warlock can chaincast AOE spells and rangers can not, so get over it, warlocks will beat yoiu all the time in AoE fights.</p><p>I play my ranger and warlock both on raids. And yes ranger dps is too low. BUT NO warlock dps is not too high. So stop complaining about warlocks. Thx.</p>

massem

04-03-2006, 07:37 PM

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>pharacyde wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Well *G* what a great guild, looking for balance on T6 content. And for your information those high dps burst from warlock are on encounters with 20mobs that you can only find in pptr. So how more situational can you be ? It's not even a good place to compare.</p><p>You are like asking for a nerf cause you can not do what you want to do with your class? You are blaming warlocks cause of your low dps? How does a warlock relate to a ranger anyway for AoE encounters. Warlock can chaincast AOE spells and rangers can not, so get over it, warlocks will beat yoiu all the time in AoE fights.</p><p>I play my ranger and warlock both on raids. And yes ranger dps is too low. BUT NO warlock dps is not too high. So stop complaining about warlocks. Thx.</p><hr></blockquote>Well said Phara - it all boils down to that some Rangers demand to be top DPS in the game on all encounters and with their 97 year old granny playing their chars because they had to go afk <span>:smileyhappy:</span>And we were in there the other day as well, and one of our rangers clocked 3500 DPS on one of the groups of failed raiders, so rangers are also cabable ofoutrageous DPS under these conditions. These mobs go down so fast so its all a matter of who get their spells in - hardly a good encounter to assess the overall DPS cabability of a class.Rangers are fine when it comes to DPS. There may be some solo issues and issues with runing themselves on buying arrows, but raid DPS wise rangers who work a bit for the DPS (like any other class has to) are fine.</span><div></div><p>Overall on the evening the rangers and assassin did around 40-50% higher DPS than me as a wizard. Not because I couldn't keep up with their DPS, but because our Troubadour was not there so we had constant aggro and power issues in the caster group. This further points to the fact that comparing DPS makes no sense unless everyone who is parsed is in a good group setup.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:24 AM</span></p>

Infinity0

04-03-2006, 08:46 PM

<div></div><div></div><p>Masseman I understand the point you are trying to make but there is more to this than meets the eye. Let me try to explain it this way, EQ2 is a game made for grouping/some solo, each class is suppose to bring something to the group (in theory). Now let's look consider wizard and ranger surface level abilities. Wizard has about 4-6 give or take groups buffs, add one sexy buff that helps the tank hold hate and awesome dps, mind you they tend to pull monster hate allot. Now let's consider the ranger, he/she comes to the group and adds 1-2 group buffs that no one really cares about, and mediocre dps. Now if you were forming a group whom would you invite? I sure know who I am inviting. Some of us are not in uber raiding guilds and when the spirit takes us engage the LFG option.Now I am not a high level-raiding ranger, for the most part I like (liked) to solo and do quests. Now when I see an even con^ monster, I get worried. Now we all can agree there are a plethora of classes that can easily solo heroics^^^ 2-5 levels above them. I loved the ranger until my ability to solo was removed, then I became irritated. The only time I came to the board was to learn about the class from dons such as Jay42 and Tobias (sp). It is not all about dps but when most of the players rolled a ranger they did for their own reasons, dps, fun, solo ability, and ranged damage. I don't think it is fair to frown at people's reason for playing a class; we all invest copious amounts of time in growing our characters. Reroll? I think not, I have been playing since release and only made it to the 50 level bracket I know I level slow <span>:smileysad:</span>. If they give rangers a pet, I would simply delete my character, the main reason I liked the ranger was due to him not having a pet.</p><div></div><p>Message Edited by Infinity0 on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:53 AM</span></p>

Jay

04-03-2006, 08:58 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><div></div><span><p>it all boils down to that some Rangers demand to be top DPS in the game on all encounters</p><p><font color="#ffff33">BS. You're confusing rangers with sorcerors again - it was the dress-wearers that repeatedly stated that they should outdamage everyone in the game all the time b/c they wear cloth. Oh, and they don't have *any* utility, unlike us rangers who buff everyone in the zone with +100 to all stats. We've never asked to outdamage everyone else, we'd just like to succeed at the job we're intended to do, instead of regularly being beat out by fighter classes.</font></p><p>Rangers are fine when it comes to DPS. There may be some solo issues and issues with runing themselves on buying arrows, but raid DPS wise rangers who work a bit for the DPS (like any other class has to) are fine.</p><p><font color="#ffff33">Okay, if rangers are fine, then there are a LOT of classes (summoners, brawlers, rogues) doing too much damage. We can either adjust rangers to enable them to reach the level they're supposedly designed for, or we can lower the damage all these other classes. I'd prefer to adjust rangers, myself.</font></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:28 PM</span></p>

massem

04-03-2006, 09:17 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Infinity0 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Masseman I understand the point you are trying to make but there is more to this than meets the eye. Let me try to explain it this way, EQ2 is a game made for grouping/some solo, each class is suppose to bring something to the group (in theory). Now let's look consider wizard and ranger surface level abilities. Wizard has about 4-6 give or take groups buffs, add one sexy buff that helps the tank hold hate and awesome dps, mind you they tend to pull monster hate allot. Now let's consider the ranger, he/she comes to the group and adds 1-2 group buffs that no one really cares about, and mediocre dps. Now if you were forming a group whom would you invite? I sure know who I am inviting. Some of us are not in uber raiding guilds and when the spirit takes us engage the LFG option.</p><p><em><font color="#ff0000">Sorcerers and predators have roughly equal (very little compared to buffer classes) - this has been discussed and proved over and over again on the forums. Just because you choose to ignore some of your utility does not mean that the class does not have it :smileyhappy:. Adding a predator to a group that already has a wizard is usually better than adding a second wizard. Adding a wizard instead of a second predator to a group is usually better as well. Thats how closely mathed classes are now. </font></em></p><p><em><font color="#ff0000">And i DO find it funny that you bring up the topic of aggro when you have a passive 40% aggro reducer and sorcerers have none. </font></em></p><p>Now I am not a high level-raiding ranger, for the most part I like (liked) to solo and do quests. Now when I see an even con^ monster, I get worried. Now we all can agree there are a plethora of classes that can easily solo heroics^^^ 2-5 levels above them. I loved the ranger until my ability to solo was removed, then I became irritated. The only time I came to the board was to learn about the class from dons such as Jay42 and Tobias (sp). It is not all about dps but when most of the players rolled a ranger they did for their own reasons, dps, fun, solo ability, and ranged damage. I don't think it is fair to frown at people's reason for playing a class; we all invest copious amounts of time in growing our characters. </p><p><em><font color="#ff0000">If it makes you any happier I can tell you that an equal level single up often two or three shots a Sorcerer. I have a high level assassin and I can tell you I die a lot less soloing with that one. With my wizard I can solo some (non.caster) triple up and that is out of the question with my assassin. </font></em></p><hr></blockquote>

massem

04-03-2006, 09:28 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><div></div><span><p>it all boils down to that some Rangers demand to be top DPS in the game on all encounters</p><p><font color="#ffff33">BS. You're confusing rangers with sorcerors again - it was the dress-wearers that repeatedly stated that they should outdamage everyone in the game all the time b/c they wear cloth. Oh, and they don't have *any* utility, unlike us rangers who buff everyone in the zone with +100 to all stats. We've never asked to outdamage everyone else, we'd just like to succeed at the job we're intended to do, instead of regularly being beat out by fighter classes.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Of course I can't speak for all sorcerers now - but since LU20 I do roughly equal DPS that rangers and assassins do on raids now (for the first time in the history of the game) and I like my now non-broken Sorcerer. Sorcerers have utility, just not very much compared to the buffer classed - thats another similarity with Rangers. </font></p><p>Rangers are fine when it comes to DPS. There may be some solo issues and issues with runing themselves on buying arrows, but raid DPS wise rangers who work a bit for the DPS (like any other class has to) are fine.</p><p><font color="#ffff33">Okay, if rangers are fine, then there are a LOT of classes (summoners, sorcerors, brawlers, rogues) doing too much damage. We can either adjust rangers to enable them to reach the level they're supposedly designed for, or we can lower the damage all these other classes. I'd prefer to adjust rangers, myself.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">I don't really care that some non-T1 classes are a bit high on DPS, they will be adjusted and brought inline just as rangers were. I don't see any need of adjusting Rangers, Sorcerors and assassins since we are all roughly equal on raid DPS now. From what I have seen a ranger can do >1000-1200 DPS on raids without fabled weapons and that is more or less what the T1 classes are designed for. The poster who did 400 DPS on the failed raiders when our rangers can do 3500 DPS seriously need to reconsider his playing style.</font></span></p><p></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote>

Star

04-03-2006, 09:29 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p><em><font color="#ff0000">Sorcerers and predators have roughly equal (very little compared to buffer classes) - this has been discussed and proved over and over again on the forums. Just because you choose to ignore some of your utility does not mean that the class does not have it :smileyhappy:. Adding a predator to a group that already has a wizard is usually better than adding a second wizard. Adding a wizard instead of a second predator to a group is usually better as well. Thats how closely mathed classes are now. </font></em></p><p><em><font color="#ff0000">And i DO find it funny that you bring up the topic of aggro when you have a passive 40% aggro reducer and sorcerers have none. </font></em></p></blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Could you please educate this ranger on the utility I bring to a group that matches a wizards? I would love to know. I feel I must be missing something.</p>

Infinity0

04-03-2006, 09:32 PM

<div></div>I don't need those hate reducer skills, becuase I don't pull hate. I assume it is related to the fact that ranger dps was lowered. There is a reason that farmers play wizards, atleast on my server they have always been one of the best solo classes. I don't see how a class that needs sneak back-stab attacks can compare to a wizards roots when solo. I am done trying to provide any information, it is obvious that some people are just full of joy with the plight of rangers. Atleast I can buy my low level rangers adepts fof 2g <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

massem

04-03-2006, 09:39 PM

<div><p>Quote from a ranger in one of the countless threads where this has been debated:</p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em>Predator's have some great utility too, Debuff poisons (Almost one of every type, Most debuff 2 Resists), 3 Skill Based debuffs, an Effect Poison (Stun OR Slow). </em></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em> We also have some tools for keeping Aggro off us, Surveil and Elude lines, plus our Conc Buff De-Hate.</em></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em>Then we get all the basic scout utilities, Safefall, Disarms(Not needed), Evac (Wizards have), Tracking (Usefull for farming and questing).</em></font></p><p>In additions to this my assassin can do (I know rangers do not have all of these)</p><p>1. off-tank (non-epícs of course) in case healer or mage gets an add or pulls aggro - there is no taunt like a good backstab hehe ... and in defensive stance the combination of chain mitigation and high avoidance is often underrated</p><p>2. stun (Cheap shot)</p><p>3. stifle (Garrotte) - don't think rangers got this though</p><div>3. use all combat arts while moving (except my frontal bow attack, so rangers may have more of these)</div><div> </div><div>4. root (Numbing strike)</div><div> </div><div>5. apply poison</div><div> </div><div>6. snares</div><div> </div><div>I understand Rangers have a trap that unfortunately doesn't work very well.</div><div> </div><div>CONCLUSION:</div><div> </div><div>DON'T IGNORE YOUR UTILITY and you may be happier with your class.</div></div>

massem

04-03-2006, 09:45 PM

<blockquote><hr>Infinity0 wrote:<div></div>I don't need those hate reducer skills, becuase I don't pull hate. I assume it is related to the fact that ranger dps was lowered. There is a reason that farmers play wizards, atleast on my server they have always been one of the best solo classes. I don't see how a class that needs sneak back-stab attacks can compare to a wizards roots when solo. I am done trying to provide any information, it is obvious that some people are just full of joy with the plight of rangers. Atleast I can buy my low level rangers adepts fof 2g <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Sorcerers are good at taking out difficult mobs slowly and Predators good at taking out easy mobs fast.</p>

Star

04-03-2006, 09:57 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div><p>Quote from a ranger in one of the countless threads where this has been debated:</p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em>Predator's have some great utility too, Debuff poisons (Almost one of every type, Most debuff 2 Resists), 3 Skill Based debuffs, an Effect Poison (Stun OR Slow). </em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">Okie, but we have to pay for that so see below...</font></em></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em> We also have some tools for keeping Aggro off us, Surveil and Elude lines, plus our Conc Buff De-Hate.</em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">This is not group utility, these could just as easilly be seen as DPS because they allow us to just do more DPS without pulling agor. Sorry.</font></em></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em>Then we get all the basic scout utilities, Safefall, Disarms(Not needed), Evac (Wizards have), Tracking (Usefull for farming and questing).</em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">Hmmmm, I can't safe fall my group. Sorry. Disarms are un needed per your quote. Evac, oh wait the quote says Wizzies get this too... Tracking, I might be able to give you tracking... but in 99% of situations dungeons are know, named spawns are know, spawns od mobs needed for quests are well documented all just a few weeks after a new zone is added. Not terribly useful.</font></em></p><p>In additions to this my assassin can do (I know rangers do not have all of these)</p><p>1. off-tank (non-epícs of course) in case healer or mage gets an add or pulls aggro - there is no taunt like a good backstab hehe ... and in defensive stance the combination of chain mitigation and high avoidance is often underrated <font color="#ffff00">Off tank? Sorry, we can't really do that. Need to be at RANGE which is counter to the idea of tanking.</font></p><p>2. stun (Cheap shot) <font color="#ffff00">Once again, if you're in a grp your prolly fighting mobs where the stun stops the second the mob takes DMG 100% of the time. This is useless in a grp.</font></p><p>3. stifle (Garrotte) - don't think rangers got this though <font color="#ffff00">We get no stiffle that I am aware of.</font></p><div>3. use all combat arts while moving (except my frontal bow attack, so rangers may have more of these) <font color="#ffff00">Most of my CAs that do a lot of DMG get an interupted message if I move...</font></div><div> </div><div>4. root (Numbing strike) <font color="#ffff00">Rangers get our 4 second root now I guess. Still pretty pointless in groups. By the time you tell the grp mob rooted, and the person see it and then moves... oh it's unrooted.</font></div><div> </div><div>5. apply poison <font color="#ffff00">Poisons are paid for.</font></div><div> </div><div>6. snares <font color="#ffff00">Again, not useful in groups.</font></div><div> </div><div>I understand Rangers have a trap that unfortunately doesn't work very well.</div><div> </div><div>CONCLUSION:</div><div> </div><div>DON'T IGNORE YOUR UTILITY and you may be happier with your class.</div></div><hr></blockquote><p>That's a nice list, but none of it applies terribly well to group situations. That all apply much much much less to grp situations than a STR and INT buff and a Elemental Resist buff. I'll give you posions, but only if you guys start having to pay gp for your 2 grp buffs. Then I might start thinking we're even in GROUP utility. And that's really what rangers that are asking for more utility want.</p>

massem

04-03-2006, 10:03 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>jwmaynar wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div><p>Quote from a ranger in one of the countless threads where this has been debated:</p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em>Predator's have some great utility too, Debuff poisons (Almost one of every type, Most debuff 2 Resists), 3 Skill Based debuffs, an Effect Poison (Stun OR Slow). </em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">Okie, but we have to pay for that so see below...</font></em></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em> We also have some tools for keeping Aggro off us, Surveil and Elude lines, plus our Conc Buff De-Hate.</em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">This is not group utility, these could just as easilly be seen as DPS because they allow us to just do more DPS without pulling agor. Sorry.</font></em></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em>Then we get all the basic scout utilities, Safefall, Disarms(Not needed), Evac (Wizards have), Tracking (Usefull for farming and questing).</em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">Hmmmm, I can't safe fall my group. Sorry. Disarms are un needed per your quote. Evac, oh wait the quote says Wizzies get this too... Tracking, I might be able to give you tracking... but in 99% of situations dungeons are know, named spawns are know, spawns od mobs needed for quests are well documented all just a few weeks after a new zone is added. Not terribly useful.</font></em></p><p>In additions to this my assassin can do (I know rangers do not have all of these)</p><p>1. off-tank (non-epícs of course) in case healer or mage gets an add or pulls aggro - there is no taunt like a good backstab hehe ... and in defensive stance the combination of chain mitigation and high avoidance is often underrated <font color="#ffff00">Off tank? Sorry, we can't really do that. Need to be at RANGE which is counter to the idea of tanking.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Yes you can just can't max DPS - and btw. thats similar for assassins. </font></p><p>2. stun (Cheap shot) <font color="#ffff00">Once again, if you're in a grp your prolly fighting mobs where the stun stops the second the mob takes DMG 100% of the time. This is useless in a grp.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">It doesn't it interrupts spellcasts and lasts 2 sec on heroics</font></p><p>3. stifle (Garrotte) - don't think rangers got this though <font color="#ffff00">We get no stiffle that I am aware of.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">Why do you think I wrote that comment ? - lol</font> </font></p><div>3. use all combat arts while moving (except my frontal bow attack, so rangers may have more of these) <font color="#ffff00">Most of my CAs that do a lot of DMG get an interupted message if I move...¨</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">All of the Sorcerer spells does that - including evac lol.</font></div><div> </div><div>4. root (Numbing strike) <font color="#ffff00">Rangers get our 4 second root now I guess. Still pretty pointless in groups. By the time you tell the grp mob rooted, and the person see it and then moves... oh it's unrooted.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">Most Sorcerer use them instead of mitigation when soloing however situtionally they </font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div>5. apply poison <font color="#ffff00">Poisons are paid for.</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000">I was referring to the assasin CA that lets other people use poison as a damage buff. Don't know what rangers get instead.</font></div><div> </div><div>6. snares <font color="#ffff00">Again, not useful in groups.</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">Lol - not useful in group ? Ever taken out a named without a healer and tank ? I guess not :smileyhappy:</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div>I understand Rangers have a trap that unfortunately doesn't work very well.</div><div> </div><div>CONCLUSION:</div><div> </div><div>DON'T IGNORE YOUR UTILITY and you may be happier with your class.</div></div><hr></blockquote><p>That's a nice list, but none of it applies terribly well to group situations. That all apply much much much less to grp situations than a STR and INT buff and a Elemental Resist buff. I'll give you posions, but only if you guys start having to pay gp for your 2 grp buffs. Then I might start thinking we're even in GROUP utility. And that's really what rangers that are asking for more utility want.</p><hr></blockquote><p>So personal utility is of no value ? :smileyhappy:</p><p>Again its not my fault if you don't use your utility.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:20 AM</span></p>

Star

04-03-2006, 10:12 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><p>So personal utility is of no value ? :smileyhappy:</p><p>Again its not my fault if you don't use your utility.</p><hr></blockquote>*rolls eyes* Whatever.

klepp

04-03-2006, 10:40 PM

<div></div>lol i dont know what too say other than some people are hilarious. I use my "utility" to the best of my ability and still get outdps'd on raids by classes that can do everything better than me.. and some. I stillg et out dps'd by classes that can out solo me .. and i still get outdps'd by classes that have utilty and buffs.. i still get out dps'd by classes that can tank.. and i still get out dps'd by classes that dont have to pay for arrows or poisons. Get real... time to turn in the denail and get off the high horse, you arent god rangers.. you just sound silly. If you'd like maybe we can get on the same server and run some parses heh..

massem

04-03-2006, 11:35 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div>lol i dont know what too say other than some people are hilarious. I use my "utility" to the best of my ability and still get outdps'd on raids by classes that can do everything better than me.. and some. I stillg et out dps'd by classes that can out solo me .. and i still get outdps'd by classes that have utilty and buffs.. i still get out dps'd by classes that can tank.. and i still get out dps'd by classes that dont have to pay for arrows or poisons. Get real... time to turn in the denail and get off the high horse, you arent god rangers.. you just sound silly. If you'd like maybe we can get on the same server and run some parses heh..<hr></blockquote><p>On yesterdays raid our ranger was the overall top DPS (summing the damage over all mobs that is), ahead of assassins and sorcerers. He averaged 830 DPS (best assassin was 800) whereas my wizard averaged around 600 DPS. The ranger was top DPS on 8 out of 22 encounters. Do I whine because I got outDPSed by a ranger ? No - I know I and the other sorcerers were low because we had no trouba or chanter in our group and the rangers and assassin had a dirge in theirs.</p><p>Maybe you need to review your group setups or playing style ? Maybe you need to concentrate on playing instead of whining on the forums ?</p><p>I am sorry you can't play in god mode anymore - if that's really what you need there is plenty of single-player games out there :smileyhappy:.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:40 PM</span></p>

Teksun

04-03-2006, 11:37 PM

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>jwmaynar wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div><p>Quote from a ranger in one of the countless threads where this has been debated:</p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em>Predator's have some great utility too, Debuff poisons (Almost one of every type, Most debuff 2 Resists), 3 Skill Based debuffs, an Effect Poison (Stun OR Slow). </em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">Okie, but we have to pay for that so see below...</font></em></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em> We also have some tools for keeping Aggro off us, Surveil and Elude lines, plus our Conc Buff De-Hate.</em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">This is not group utility, these could just as easilly be seen as DPS because they allow us to just do more DPS without pulling agor. Sorry.</font></em></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><em>Then we get all the basic scout utilities, Safefall, Disarms(Not needed), Evac (Wizards have), Tracking (Usefull for farming and questing).</em></font></p><p><em><font color="#ffff00">Hmmmm, I can't safe fall my group. Sorry. Disarms are un needed per your quote. Evac, oh wait the quote says Wizzies get this too... Tracking, I might be able to give you tracking... but in 99% of situations dungeons are know, named spawns are know, spawns od mobs needed for quests are well documented all just a few weeks after a new zone is added. Not terribly useful.</font></em></p><p>In additions to this my assassin can do (I know rangers do not have all of these)</p><p>1. off-tank (non-epícs of course) in case healer or mage gets an add or pulls aggro - there is no taunt like a good backstab hehe ... and in defensive stance the combination of chain mitigation and high avoidance is often underrated <font color="#ffff00">Off tank? Sorry, we can't really do that. Need to be at RANGE which is counter to the idea of tanking.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Yes you can just can't max DPS - and btw. thats similar for assassins.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#33cc00">Speed bump: yes. Offtank: no</font></font></p><p>2. stun (Cheap shot) <font color="#ffff00">Once again, if you're in a grp your prolly fighting mobs where the stun stops the second the mob takes DMG 100% of the time. This is useless in a grp.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">It doesn't it interrupts spellcasts and lasts 2 sec on heroics</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#33cc00">Then call it an interupt, NOT a stun. That's about all it is good for in group</font></font></p><p>3. stifle (Garrotte) - don't think rangers got this though <font color="#ffff00">We get no stiffle that I am aware of.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">Why do you think I wrote that comment ? - lol</font></font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#33cc00">/ignore</font></font> </font></p><div>3. use all combat arts while moving (except my frontal bow attack, so rangers may have more of these) <font color="#ffff00">Most of my CAs that do a lot of DMG get an interupted message if I move...¨</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">All of the Sorcerer spells does that - including evac lol.<font color="#33cc00">All melee arts. ONE range from the front.</font></font></div><div> </div><div>4. root (Numbing strike) <font color="#ffff00">Rangers get our 4 second root now I guess. Still pretty pointless in groups. By the time you tell the grp mob rooted, and the person see it and then moves... oh it's unrooted.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">Most Sorcerer use them instead of mitigation when soloing however situtionally they<font color="#33cc00">Sorcerer root at range, and can generally recast while the MOB closes NO similarity IMHO</font></font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div>5. apply poison <font color="#ffff00">Poisons are paid for.</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000">I was referring to the assasin CA that lets other people use poison as a damage buff. Don't know what rangers get instead.<font color="#33cc00">That's nice. Go post that in the Assassin thread. Oh wait. THEY HAVE DPS.</font></font></div><div> </div><div>6. snares <font color="#ffff00">Again, not useful in groups.</font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div><font color="#ff0000">Lol - not useful in group ? Ever taken out a named without a healer and tank ? I guess not :smileyhappy:<font color="#33cc00">No healer? No tank? Sounds like solo to me. Yes I have duoed with Rangers, and it is viable, but who the HECK groups without a healer and a tank??? at least ON PURPOSE.</font></font></div><div><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font> </div><div>I understand Rangers have a trap that unfortunately doesn't work very well.</div><div> </div><div>CONCLUSION:</div><div> </div><div>DON'T IGNORE YOUR UTILITY and you may be happier with your class.</div></div><hr></blockquote><p>That's a nice list, but none of it applies terribly well to group situations. That all apply much much much less to grp situations than a STR and INT buff and a Elemental Resist buff. I'll give you posions, but only if you guys start having to pay gp for your 2 grp buffs. Then I might start thinking we're even in GROUP utility. And that's really what rangers that are asking for more utility want.</p><hr></blockquote><p>So personal utility is of no value ? :smileyhappy:</p><p>Again its not my fault if you don't use your utility.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:20 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#33cc00">Thank you for your insightful comments. Why don't you play a Ranger and come back to us on that?</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Teksun on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:38 PM</span></p>

massem

04-03-2006, 11:43 PM

<blockquote><span><font color="#33cc00">Thank you for your insightful comments. Why don't you play a Ranger and come back to us on that?</font></span><div> </div><div>I might just convert my assassin into a ranger when that becomes possible.</div></blockquote>

Crychtonn

04-04-2006, 01:15 AM

<div></div><p>Cheap Shot does stun for 2 sec on up arrow mobs only if they take zero damage during that 2 sec. In group settings it is nothing more then an interupt. When solo if you pay attention and react extremely fast it can be used with a snare to create distance. But in general it's still just and interupt.</p><p>Other then the fact that rangers have to pay for half their utility (debuff poisons) I don't see alot of difference between wizard and ranger utility. With the proc change and how much cheaper T7 poisons are compared to earlier tiers it's not to bad.</p><p>Unfortunately the new cost of T7 arrows is becoming alot more significant then poisons ever were. I'm lucky if I get to keep 20-40% of the gold I get from vendor loot after resuppling arrows for the next day. I still make money but at a significantly slower rate then any other class in the game.</p><p>Bugged CA's are another big issue. Trap is still screwed up and only works now and then. Focus Aim is still bugged and breaking stealth when used after combat starts. Can still be used and remained stealthed if done before entering combat. Hawk Dive has all kinds of issues with breaking stealth so stealth attacks are unuseable when it's up and all the hate sucked up being dumped on the ranger if the bird dies. The pathectic upgrade in damage in the Triple Fire/Volley line compared to other skill upgrades.</p><p> </p><p>Thorny Trap is the L52 skill rangers get vs the assassin Apply Poison. Just FYI since it was asked.</p><p> </p>

Shaulin Dolamite

04-04-2006, 01:21 AM

<div></div><p>Massman;</p><p>Since the ranger you speak of seems to parse higher then all other rangers could you post those parses and have that ranger check in here to give all us noobs the secret to his uber dps?</p>

massem

04-04-2006, 01:37 AM

<div></div><div></div><div>Here is one of the 8 (out of 22 eno[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ers) the ranger was top DPS on. Couldn't figure out a way of presenting a DPS</div><div>breakdown of the complete raid. The ranger did 899 DPS, best assassin was 830 and best Sorcerer 700 DPS.</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://images6.theimagehosting.com/ranger.jpg"></div><div> </div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:07 PM</span></p>

Gareorn

04-04-2006, 01:51 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>jwmaynar wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><p>So personal utility is of no value ? :smileyhappy:</p><p>Again its not my fault if you don't use your utility.</p><hr></blockquote>*rolls eyes* Whatever.<hr></blockquote>Dude! All those countless threads, he is talking about, is people trying to explain to him the definition of utility. He'll never get it. And trying convince him otherwise is like trying to teach a pig to sing.

massem

04-04-2006, 02:06 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div>Dude! All those countless threads, he is talking about, is people trying to explain to him the definition of utility. He'll never get it. And trying convince him otherwise is like trying to teach a pig to sing.<hr></blockquote>Out of arguments ? :smileyhappy: [Removed for Content] ....

Mirdo

04-04-2006, 02:24 AM

Maseman, which mobs were you raiding?Your Assassins DPS is just plain bad. Does he have any masters or even A3's ?It's unusual for our Assassin to hit less than 1k dps on a raid mob. He's consistantly top DPS on our raids - occassionaly bested by a summoner+pet combo.Mirdo.<div></div>

Shaulin Dolamite

04-04-2006, 02:26 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div>Dude! All those countless threads, he is talking about, is people trying to explain to him the definition of utility. He'll never get it. And trying convince him otherwise is like trying to teach a pig to sing.<hr></blockquote>Out of arguments ? :smileyhappy: [Removed for Content] ....<hr></blockquote>Was just a matter of time before Massboy reverted to his 3rd grade playground talk )<p>Message Edited by Shaulin Dolamite on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:27 PM</span></p>

Dirtgirl

04-04-2006, 02:30 AM

<div></div>Wanna know what I find interesting about that parse?199 swings and 199 hits?No block, parries or misses at all? None? Or does that parser not show them on the swing/hit numbers?I was fighting level 20 gnolls trying to get a distressed merchant to spawn in TS and was blocked and parried AND had a few misses.....

massem

04-04-2006, 02:35 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mirdo wrote:Maseman, which mobs were you raiding?Your Assassins DPS is just plain bad. Does he have any masters or even A3's ?It's unusual for our Assassin to hit less than 1k dps on a raid mob. He's consistantly top DPS on our raids - occassionaly bested by a summoner+pet combo.Mirdo.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Our assassins usually do around 900 DPS - a bit more on non AE mobs an a bit less on AE mobs. The raid was in PPtR. Were a "family" raiding guild and most people have around half the spells at Adept III or better quality. I have yet to see any of our assassin do more than 1000 DPS when jousting AE.</p><p>Sorcerers usually do around 1000 DPS if there are no resists, and 700-900 with resist against one damage type (if there are no aggro issues).</p><p>I see very similar DPS among all the T1 classes. The main difference is that Sorcerers rely on buffers to manage aggro where predators can manage aggro on their own.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:42 PM</span></p>

massem

04-04-2006, 02:38 AM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Shaulin Dolamite wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div>Dude! All those countless threads, he is talking about, is people trying to explain to him the definition of utility. He'll never get it. And trying convince him otherwise is like trying to teach a pig to sing.<hr></blockquote>Out of arguments ? :smileyhappy: [Removed for Content] ....<hr></blockquote>Was just a matter of time before Massboy reverted to his 3rd grade playground talk )<hr></blockquote><p>Im just responding to any post at the same level as the poster. :smileyhappy: If you lower yourself further it might get nasty.</p><p>And given that I went through the trouble to make and link a picture with a parse to teach you to play your ranger, I would have expected a more polite answer :smileyhappy:</p><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:46 PM</span></p>

Balerius

04-04-2006, 02:48 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Here is one of the 8 (out of 22 eno[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ers) the ranger was top DPS on. Couldn't figure out a way of presenting a DPS</div><div>breakdown of the complete raid. The ranger did 899 DPS, best assassin was 830 and best Sorcerer 700 DPS.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:07 PM</span></div><hr></blockquote><p>The ranger's dps is right in line with what I've been saying...rangers do consistently 650-900 dps on t7 epic mobs.</p><p>But quite frankly, your assassin(s) are very sub par dps-wise. Either you had them in poorly made groups, they have really bad gear/spell upgrades, they were a much lower level, or they just plain suck at playing their class. Assassins in my guild routinely do 1000-1300 (or higher) dps on epic mobs.</p><p>If you had a summoner and/or necro along...he/they must have been afk during the raid since they are typically higher dps than the assassins.</p><p>For that matter, your brigand(s), swashbuckler(s), and wizard(s) should also have out-dps'd the ranger on more fights than not. See comments about your assassin(s).</p><p>Or, your "raid" was against below tier targets...such as the skellies in PPtR and you only parsed those fights where the ranger could do massive damage with rain of arrows...in which case your ranger should have been a heck of a lot higher and you can refer to my comments about your assassins and apply those to him instead.</p>

massem

04-04-2006, 03:06 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Balerius wrote:<div></div><p>The ranger's dps is right in line with what I've been saying...rangers do consistently 650-900 dps on t7 epic mobs.</p><p>But quite frankly, your assassin(s) are very sub par dps-wise. Either you had them in poorly made groups, they have really bad gear/spell upgrades, they were a much lower level, or they just plain suck at playing their class. Assassins in my guild routinely do 1000-1300 (or higher) dps on epic mobs.</p><p>If you had a summoner and/or necro along...he/they must have been afk during the raid since they are typically higher dps than the assassins.</p><p>For that matter, your brigand(s), swashbuckler(s), and wizard(s) should also have out-dps'd the ranger on more fights than not. See comments about your assassin(s).</p><p>Or, your "raid" was against below tier targets...such as the skellies in PPtR and you only parsed those fights where the ranger could do massive damage with rain of arrows...in which case your ranger should have been a heck of a lot higher and you can refer to my comments about your assassins and apply those to him instead.</p><hr></blockquote><p>We have no summoners or swashies. We have 5-6 assassasins and two of them are usually parsing a bit higher than the rest. As I wrote before, I don't think I ever saw them over 1000 DPS on boss with AE. Sorcerers put out similar number but on this occasion our trouba was absent and we had no aggro management in the caster DPS group. Also we only had 18 people in the raid - MT group + 1 caster DPS group and one Melee DPS group. Most were 68-70 but a few low 60s that we just recruited were also there. The assassins were in the same group as the ranger.</p><p>I find it hard to believe that we have 5-6 assassins that completely suck and a ranger that is totally uber - but of course that is possible :smileyhappy:</p><p> </p>

klepp

04-04-2006, 01:27 PM

<div></div><p>masseman, ranger at top of dps list? Let me guess, yo uhave no conjurors (as per your post) and you have no monks or bruisers either? And not a very well equipped berserker? =p</p><p>anyhow 600-900dps is fine if everyone else isnt doing 1000-1500.</p>

massem

04-04-2006, 01:44 PM

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<p>masseman, ranger at top of dps list? Let me guess, yo uhave no conjurors (as per your post) and you have no monks or bruisers either? And not a very well equipped berserker? =p</p><p>anyhow 600-900dps is fine if everyone else isnt doing 1000-1500.</p><hr></blockquote>Like I have said many times before - they have now balanced the T1 classes at around 1000 DPS and are working on the DPS of other. They even had a nerf announced for the Summoners but it was cancelled at the last minute - probably to avoid overnerfing so they later have to boost again as they did with rangers in LU21. There are other classes that might see a nerf soon, but I won't name them.</span><span>We have monks and berserker but no bruiser in raiding level, they do good DPS but only rarely they outdamage the T1 classes.</span><span>To ask for DPS the same theoretical capability for DPS as the assassins can do on the rare occations where mobs have no AE is crazy - in 90% of the cases they lose a substantial part of their DPS and seldom go over 1000. Remeber that rangers as well as sorcerers have much better AE damage than Assassins, so its only fair that they can go a tad higher on single-targets sometimes.Rangers is perhaps already the most rediculed class in the game following the massive whine campaigns and the behaviour pre-nerf - going out calling for nerfs on each and every class is not they way to get more popular. The ranger class does good but not spectacular DPS, has little aggro troubles, doesn't lose much DPS because of jousting and on top of that has excellent damage-to-power efficiency. Any other class would be happy in that situation, but as former "Gods of DPS" perhaps its tricky to manage the situation as mere mortals.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:36 AM</span></p>

Cron

04-04-2006, 04:01 PM

<blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<p>masseman, ranger at top of dps list? Let me guess, yo uhave no conjurors (as per your post) and you have no monks or bruisers either? And not a very well equipped berserker? =p</p><p>anyhow 600-900dps is fine if everyone else isnt doing 1000-1500.</p><hr></blockquote>Like I have said many times before - they have now balanced the T1 classes at around 1000 DPS and are working on the DPS of other. They even had a nerf announced for the Summoners but it was cancelled at the last minute - probably to avoid overnerfing so they later have to boost again as they did with rangers in LU21. There are other classes that might see a nerf soon, but I won't name them.</span><span>We have monks and berserker but no bruiser in raiding level, they do good DPS but only rarely they outdamage the T1 classes.</span><span>To ask for DPS the same theoretical capability for DPS as the assassins can do on the rare occations where mobs have no AE is crazy - in 90% of the cases they lose a substantial part of their DPS and seldom go over 1000. Remeber that rangers as well as sorcerers have much better AE damage than Assassins, so its only fair that they can go a tad higher on single-targets sometimes.Rangers is perhaps already the most rediculed class in the game following the massive whine campaigns and the behaviour pre-nerf - going out calling for nerfs on each and every class is not they way to get more popular. The ranger class does good but not spectacular DPS, has little aggro troubles, doesn't lose much DPS because of jousting and on top of that has excellent damage-to-power efficiency. Any other class would be happy in that situation, but as former "Gods of DPS" perhaps its tricky to manage the situation as mere mortals.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Condescending much? Personally, managing my own agro isn't needed. I can turn the agro-reducer off in a raid and never draw agro as long as I have a conjuror, necro, or assassin in the raid. Your numbers are off. Going full tilt in a T7 raid, I don't go above 700 DPS and Jay can confirm that. He's seen the parses. To do it, I have to move in and melee while the ranged arts are down, putting me at the same risk as an Assassin but not the casters. I have to get behind the mob and do the back attacks that the Assassin does. I have to move back out to get the arrow shots going. I keep power only if I keep up a high agi, which I tend to go toward str for the damage. Which means I run out of power during raid encounters like everyone else. I've heard NOBODY here calling for a nerf to other classes. What I have heard is people defending their classes because casters CONTINUE to come in and harass us even AFTER they got the nerf to our class that they REQUESTED. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say pretty much anything you say in this forum is going to fall on deaf ears. Your own comments have you weighed and measured. You've been found lacking.p.s. Stooping to his level? (earlier post). He said you couldn't be taught anything about Rangers (because you are unwilling to listen to those who actually PLAY the class). You called him a [Removed for Content]?p.s.s. Did anyone notice that the parse he showed was lacking many bow attacks? Does that mean to DPS I have to become an assassin? Most of his damage was piercing, which correct me if I'm wrong, is only the auto attack melee?

massem

04-04-2006, 05:18 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Cronon wrote:Condescending much? Personally, managing my own agro isn't needed. I can turn the agro-reducer off in a raid and never draw agro as long as I have a conjuror, necro, or assassin in the raid. Your numbers are off. Going full tilt in a T7 raid, I don't go above 700 DPS and Jay can confirm that. He's seen the parses.<font color="#ff0000">Well sorcerors also stop at around 700 DPS if they don't have good buffs, so what is your point ? The parse I included shows that Rangers CAN do similar DPS as sorcerers and assassins if they are in good group setup. This only indicates that you need to get into a better group setup and possible optimize you stats a bit. Tip - Coercers and Dirges are your friends. Sorcerers need at least a troubadour for aggro management and a ranger or brigand for debuffs to get to 1000 DPS on raids. Other classes work hard for the DPS and Rangers need to do it too now - learn to live with that.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font>To do it, I have to move in and melee while the ranged arts are down, putting me at the same risk as an Assassin but not the casters. I have to get behind the mob and do the back attacks that the Assassin does. I have to move back out to get the arrow shots going. I keep power only if I keep up a high agi, which I tend to go toward str for the damage. Which means I run out of power during raid encounters like everyone else. I've heard NOBODY here calling for a nerf to other classes.<span><span><font color="#ff0000">Well the previous poster named 3 or 4 diffent classes and was seemingly upset that he got oputDPSed by them on occasions - sure looked like a nerf call to me <span>:smileyhappy:</span></font></span></span>What I have heard is people defending their classes because casters CONTINUE to come in and harass us even AFTER they got the nerf to our class that they REQUESTED. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say pretty much anything you say in this forum is going to fall on deaf ears. Your own comments have you weighed and measured. You've been found lacking.<span><font color="#ff0000">Yeah probably you are right - rangers and facts do not seem to be a good combination - it is probably soon time to leave you rangers to your self-pity. Fortunately the rangers in my guild do not seem to be typical representatives of the class - they adapt their playing style and work to do DPS just as other classes always have done in the past. And it is so hypocritical that the very same rangers that a few months ago posted statements like "It doesnt matter that rangers outDPS sorcerers a factor 2, since raids are team efforts anyhow" or "we should grossly ouDPS any other class since we have to pay for poisons" on the wizard boards, now are so upset that can "only" do the same DPS as other T1 classes.DESPITE the ranger efforts the sorcerers where eventually fixed and we are happy to finally be a T1 DPS class 20 LU after the game release.</font></span><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

Teksun

04-04-2006, 06:50 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Cronon wrote:Condescending much? Personally, managing my own agro isn't needed. I can turn the agro-reducer off in a raid and never draw agro as long as I have a conjuror, necro, or assassin in the raid. Your numbers are off. Going full tilt in a T7 raid, I don't go above 700 DPS and Jay can confirm that. He's seen the parses.<font color="#ff0000">Well sorcerors also stop at around 700 DPS if they don't have good buffs, so what is your point ? The parse I included shows that Rangers CAN do similar DPS as sorcerers and assassins if they are in good group setup. This only indicates that you need to get into a better group setup and possible optimize you stats a bit. Tip - Coercers and Dirges are your friends. Sorcerers need at least a troubadour for aggro management and a ranger or brigand for debuffs to get to 1000 DPS on raids. Other classes work hard for the DPS and Rangers need to do it too now - learn to live with that.<font color="#33cc00">Sorcerers??? 700 DPS??? Your sorcerers must be holdong back as much as your assassins....</font></font>To do it, I have to move in and melee while the ranged arts are down, putting me at the same risk as an Assassin but not the casters. I have to get behind the mob and do the back attacks that the Assassin does. I have to move back out to get the arrow shots going. I keep power only if I keep up a high agi, which I tend to go toward str for the damage. Which means I run out of power during raid encounters like everyone else. I've heard NOBODY here calling for a nerf to other classes.<span><span><font color="#ff0000">Well the previous poster named 3 or 4 diffent classes and was seemingly upset that he got oputDPSed by them on occasions - sure looked like a nerf call to me <span>:smileyhappy:<font color="#33cc00">Nerf call??? An assassin in the Ranger boards needs to not call any kettle black</font></span></font></span></span>What I have heard is people defending their classes because casters CONTINUE to come in and harass us even AFTER they got the nerf to our class that they REQUESTED. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say pretty much anything you say in this forum is going to fall on deaf ears. Your own comments have you weighed and measured. You've been found lacking.<span><font color="#ff0000">Yeah probably you are right - rangers and facts do not seem to be a good combination - it is probably soon time to leave you rangers to your self-pity. Fortunately the rangers in my guild do not seem to be typical representatives of the class - they adapt their playing style and work to do DPS just as other classes always have done in the past. And it is so hypocritical that the very same rangers that a few months ago posted statements like "It doesnt matter that rangers outDPS sorcerers a factor 2, since raids are team efforts anyhow" or "we should grossly ouDPS any other class since we have to pay for poisons" on the wizard boards, now are so upset that can "only" do the same DPS as other T1 classes.DESPITE the ranger efforts the sorcerers where eventually fixed and we are happy to finally be a T1 DPS class 20 LU after the game release.<font color="#33cc00">Yes, sorcerers are fixed. assassins are fixed. No doubt about it. If you think Rangers are, even though you have never played one, you are quite simply, wrong.</font></font></span><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

CrimsonValerian

04-04-2006, 07:29 PM

<div></div>Posted this somewhere else in the ranger vs. assassin comparison, a lot of the DD attacks that rangers and assassins get are somewhat similar, some are higher than other be sure, but the one major thing i see lacking is you guys only get 1 damage over time art, excluding poisons, where assassins's get 3 not including the assassins mark skill. But basically if things go well, those 3 dot's would be somewhere around 2700 points of total damage done over a 24 or 36 second time frame, add in assassin's mark it does something like 500-700ish, so around 3400 added points of damage over a 36 second time frame, and is useable again after 36 seconds, basically i spam the crap outta these attacks and it adds up bigtime over a long fight, i think ranger's could definately benefit from some added smaller dot's and definately getting stream fixed and you'd be flying right.

04-04-2006, 08:39 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Cronon wrote:<blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<p>masseman, ranger at top of dps list? Let me guess, yo uhave no conjurors (as per your post) and you have no monks or bruisers either? And not a very well equipped berserker? =p</p><p>anyhow 600-900dps is fine if everyone else isnt doing 1000-1500.</p><hr></blockquote>Like I have said many times before - they have now balanced the T1 classes at around 1000 DPS and are working on the DPS of other. They even had a nerf announced for the Summoners but it was cancelled at the last minute - probably to avoid overnerfing so they later have to boost again as they did with rangers in LU21. There are other classes that might see a nerf soon, but I won't name them.</span><span>We have monks and berserker but no bruiser in raiding level, they do good DPS but only rarely they outdamage the T1 classes.</span><span>To ask for DPS the same theoretical capability for DPS as the assassins can do on the rare occations where mobs have no AE is crazy - in 90% of the cases they lose a substantial part of their DPS and seldom go over 1000. Remeber that rangers as well as sorcerers have much better AE damage than Assassins, so its only fair that they can go a tad higher on single-targets sometimes.Rangers is perhaps already the most rediculed class in the game following the massive whine campaigns and the behaviour pre-nerf - going out calling for nerfs on each and every class is not they way to get more popular. The ranger class does good but not spectacular DPS, has little aggro troubles, doesn't lose much DPS because of jousting and on top of that has excellent damage-to-power efficiency. Any other class would be happy in that situation, but as former "Gods of DPS" perhaps its tricky to manage the situation as mere mortals.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:36 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Condescending much? Personally, managing my own agro isn't needed. I can turn the agro-reducer off in a raid and never draw agro as long as I have a conjuror, necro, or assassin in the raid. Your numbers are off. Going full tilt in a T7 raid, I don't go above 700 DPS and Jay can confirm that. He's seen the parses. To do it, I have to move in and melee while the ranged arts are down, putting me at the same risk as an Assassin but not the casters. I have to get behind the mob and do the back attacks that the Assassin does. I have to move back out to get the arrow shots going. I keep power only if I keep up a high agi, which I tend to go toward str for the damage. Which means I run out of power during raid encounters like everyone else. I've heard NOBODY here calling for a nerf to other classes. What I have heard is people defending their classes because casters CONTINUE to come in and harass us even AFTER they got the nerf to our class that they REQUESTED. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say pretty much anything you say in this forum is going to fall on deaf ears. Your own comments have you weighed and measured. You've been found lacking.p.s. Stooping to his level? (earlier post). He said you couldn't be taught anything about Rangers (because you are unwilling to listen to those who actually PLAY the class). You called him a [Removed for Content]?p.s.s. Did anyone notice that the parse he showed was lacking many bow attacks? Does that mean to DPS I have to become an assassin? Most of his damage was piercing, which correct me if I'm wrong, is only the auto attack melee?<hr></blockquote><p>Bow auto attack is piercing.</p><p>If you are going to argue at least show some basic knowledge of the class...</p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:44 AM</span></p>

04-04-2006, 08:43 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div>Wanna know what I find interesting about that parse?199 swings and 199 hits?No block, parries or misses at all? None? Or does that parser not show them on the swing/hit numbers?I was fighting level 20 gnolls trying to get a distressed merchant to spawn in TS and was blocked and parried AND had a few misses.....<hr></blockquote><p>It's called master 2 debilitating arrow...</p><p>Between that and the tank turning the mob's back to us I roughly only had 1-2 missed per fight last night in Vyemm's laboratory ( granted we only spent 2 hours there and didn't go too deep but we were fighting lvl 69-70-71 mobs).</p><p> </p><p>And yes I sit in the camp of players that think ranger's dps is fine now.</p><p>I never pull aggro in raids but each time the MT dies I am consistently the second to die.</p><p>Most of the time I am top dps in raids ( assassins will beat me on non AE mobs, I will beat the crap out of them if they have to joust...). Conjurors will beat me but not that badly.</p><p>And solo I can handle 65^^^ indoors, and 68^^^ outdoors ( not named, regular heroics mind you), I don't know what more you want.</p><p>The more time passes and the more it seems people are just longing for the ranger class the way it was before LU20 and want it back that way..</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:53 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:00 AM</span></p>

Jay

04-04-2006, 09:16 PM

<div></div><p>Ail - you're obviously not experiencing the problems that many of the rest of us are, and your DPS is apparently top notch nowadays. Maybe instead of insulting the others who don't get your results, you might help them achieve higher numbers by sharing what you've done?</p><p>Unless it's all just a matter of Fabled raid gear from head to toe and Master 1's / Adept IIIs across the board. Though I guess if it's a matter of spending money to be a good ranger, that might be helpful to know too.</p>

Katsugen

04-04-2006, 09:27 PM

<div></div><p>This thread has taken an ugly turn. As the OP I just wanted to voice my opinion on the U21 changes and their effect on my raiding experience. This was not intended to be a nerf them or fix us thread. From what I've seen every "supposed" T1 dps has the ability to break 1k dps. If your not then you simply might need better equip, more masters, different group configs, different mobs, etc etc...</p><p>I watch the parses constantly and the dps is constantly changing. Sometimes I'm besting assassins sometime I'm not. Some times wizzy's are owning us both, other times their dead (gotta love wizzy agro issues). The point is the contribution overall seems pretty balanced. If you find your being out dps'd by monk/bruisers/zerkers/etc etc... first off just look at the setups. is equipment comparable? What are the group setups? I have been thrown in some groups where I get no haste buffs and no str buffs, and my dps reflects it.</p><p>You might have noticed I didn't mention anything about summoners. Well I personally think they are a little out of whack atm. Am I calling for nerf? not even remotely. The more damage our raid force can do the better. Do I think SOE will adjust them? yes. The other day 2 necro's did ~1840 and ~1950 dps and although me and the other wizzy were around 1k we simply couldn't believe we'd be nearly dbl'd. Granted when the AE mobs roll around their dps really drops off. So long story short I think rangers are back inline with the other T1 dps classes, with the exception of summoners who will likely see "tweaks" in the future.</p><p>I would like to see some bow's with a little higher damage rating. I have seen plenty of 2 handers out there with much higher rating than any bows I have seen. But its still early and who knows what death toll holds.</p><p>-Katsugen</p>

Ranja

04-04-2006, 10:18 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ail wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div>Wanna know what I find interesting about that parse?199 swings and 199 hits?No block, parries or misses at all? None? Or does that parser not show them on the swing/hit numbers?I was fighting level 20 gnolls trying to get a distressed merchant to spawn in TS and was blocked and parried AND had a few misses.....<hr></blockquote><p>It's called master 2 debilitating arrow...</p><p>Between that and the tank turning the mob's back to us I roughly only had 1-2 missed per fight last night in Vyemm's laboratory ( granted we only spent 2 hours there and didn't go too deep but we were fighting lvl 69-70-71 mobs).</p><p> </p><p>And yes I sit in the camp of players that think ranger's dps is fine now.</p><p>I never pull aggro in raids but each time the MT dies I am consistently the second to die.</p><p>Most of the time I am top dps in raids ( assassins will beat me on non AE mobs, I will beat the crap out of them if they have to joust...). Conjurors will beat me but not that badly.</p><p>And solo I can handle 65^^^ indoors, and 68^^^ outdoors ( not named, regular heroics mind you), I don't know what more you want.</p><p>The more time passes and the more it seems people are just longing for the ranger class the way it was before LU20 and want it back that way..</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:53 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:00 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Ali I would love to know how you are taking out 65^^^ indoors. What is your gear? What are your spells? Is there something I am missing? Apparently, b/c I have barely any chance of survival against a ^ indoors. What kind of poisons are you using?</p><p>If you are in the camp of Rangers are ok, then let us know how you became top DPS. Please share we are all dying to know<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

Carna

04-04-2006, 10:22 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Katsugen wrote:<p>I watch the parses constantly and the dps is constantly changing. Sometimes I'm besting assassins sometime I'm not. Some times wizzy's are owning us both, other times their dead (gotta love wizzy agro issues). The point is the contribution overall seems pretty balanced. If you find your being out dps'd by monk/bruisers/zerkers/etc etc... first off just look at the setups. is equipment comparable? What are the group setups? I have been thrown in some groups where I get no haste buffs and no str buffs, and my dps reflects it.</p><hr></blockquote>Now this is sound advice and avice anybody should listen to before they freak out over a particular parse.

massem

04-04-2006, 10:40 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><span><blockquote><span><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Cronon wrote:<font color="#ff0000">Well sorcerors also stop at around 700 DPS if they don't have good buffs, so what is your point ? The parse I included shows that Rangers CAN do similar DPS as sorcerers and assassins if they are in good group setup. This only indicates that you need to get into a better group setup and possible optimize you stats a bit. Tip - Coercers and Dirges are your friends. Sorcerers need at least a troubadour for aggro management and a ranger or brigand for debuffs to get to 1000 DPS on raids. Other classes work hard for the DPS and Rangers need to do it too now - learn to live with that.<font color="#33cc00">Sorcerers??? 700 DPS??? Your sorcerers must be holdong back as much as your assassins....</font></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#33cc00"><font color="#ffff00">700 DPS is a pretty much an accurate limit for sorcerers on single-target without someone to help managing aggro and helping with power regen.</font> </font></font></p><span><font color="#ff0000"><p>DESPITE the ranger efforts the sorcerers where eventually fixed and we are happy to finally be a T1 DPS class 20 LU after the game release.<font color="#33cc00">Yes, sorcerers are fixed. assassins are fixed. No doubt about it. If you think Rangers are, even though you have never played one, you are quite simply, wrong.</font></span><font color="#ffff00">Yep all the T1 classes were fixed and made roughly equal - all classes including rangers now need to work hard for the DPS and secure places in good group setups if they want to top the parse. Just playing a ranger is not enough to top the parse anymore :smileyhappy:. Welcome to the game we others have played ... </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">And a side not for all the rangers here - if you so sure you are broken that you don't even try to improve and experiment with groups etc. you can be sure that you will never be anything else than subpar DPS. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">And what was fixed with Sorcerers was not really the class itself, but the buffs provided by other classes. As far as I know not a single one of our spells had its damage increased. Sorcerers are still T3 DPS in bad group setups, but in the right group we can shine and compete and sometimes outdamage Rangers and Assassins. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Learn what buffer classes are good for Rangers and group with them - Coercers and Dirges for example. If you don't hate wizzies too much, you might be interested in that we buff strength for increased autoattack damage as well as int for increased poison damage.</font></p></font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div></blockquote></span></blockquote><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:49 AM</span></p>

04-04-2006, 11:46 PM

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I'm not doing anything really special...</p><p>My gear isn't top notched but it's not bad either, I mainly wear legendary drops gathered in KoS as well as a few Claymore rewards (but not the palace rewards, I have yet to complete those steps. you can see my gear on eq2players...)</p><p>I have 33% mitigation and 33% avoidance against lvl 70 ( in offensive stance I almost neverv switch out of it), 5300 hp and a whooping 23 INT !</p><p>For spells I have a mix of adept 3 and masters 1, the master all come from the broker.</p><p>Significant master 1 I have is :</p><p>- Focus Aim ( but only since Sunday).</p><p>- Archer's frenzy ( T6)</p><p>- Snaring shot ( T6)</p><p>- Devitalizing arrow is master 2</p><p>- Cover fire is master 1</p><p>- Precise shot is master 1 (T6)</p><p>- Emberstrike is master 1 ( but i rarely use it).</p><p>- Shocking trust is master 1 (T6)</p><p>- Stealthy fire is master 1 ( haven't upgraded to veiled fire yet because adept 1 would be less damage). (T6)</p><p>- Mortal reminder is master 1</p><p>- Culling the weak is master 1 (T6)</p><p>The rest are adept 3 except cloak of the forest ( adept 1), Veiled fire ( already mentionned, still use the t6 version), selection ( adept 1), honed reflexes ( app 4), the new root ( adept 1, I will admit 95% I even forget it roots and do not take advantage of it..), killing instincts ( adept 1)</p><p>I have poised and max ranged crit AA.</p><p> </p><p>To solo indoor or outdoor I use T6 stun poison, adeste and trap. ( most of the time either solo, groups or raids I use the 51 STR buff potion too, at 20s for 51 str for 30 min, it's not worth not using..)</p><p>Start the fight stealthed, fire of focus aim and then stealthy fire, chain devitalizing arrow, tripple volley( or snaring shot). Most likely by that time the mob is stunned and hasn't reached the trap yet ( because cloak of the forest + focus aim ( even just adept 1 focus aim) means you have 100% attack speed buff and with a Grizzlefang bow you are firing every 3 seconds with a 50% proc chance on all your poisons...</p><p>If the mob isn't stunned it's in your trap, fire the rest of your CAs, preferably a snaring shot if it's up again.</p><p>Mob will most likely get stunned again at least once.</p><p>When it reaches you it will be way bellow 40% hp.</p><p>If you have a little room and it is still snared just move around, otherwise killing instinct + honed reflex and stand toe to toe with it.</p><p>Use point blank shot to get a back stab in if needed or a mastery strike ( or if the melee is going bad to step back and do a rain of arrows), cheap shot to interrupt casts if it's a caster...</p><p>Rinse and repeat, whole fight doesn't last more than 40 seconds top.</p><p>If outdoor, you can use snare and vines to your advantage and do not need to melee...</p><p> </p><p>In raids I only use bow and never come to melee range ( mainly because coming to melee range means switching to melee auto attack when you use a melee CA and then when you walk back you get the stupid target out of range message until you fire a bow CA and get switched to bow auto attack again, well that and I don't like taking aes, a lot of the aes are short range too which means that by staying far away I do not need to switch to resist gear and can keep higher dps stats).</p><p>In raid I use 3 poisons : adeste, horrendous attrophy and exceptional ignorant bliss.( yes they stack and they all proc...)</p><p>- As soon as dps get the call to engage I fire all bow CAs, firing focus aim after the second or third CA.( I do not hold back anything, I do not have to with ignorant bliss, I can burn from the start of the fight which is kinda nice( I actually fire a few seconds before melee get the call, starting with a confounding arrow to help the tank get better aggro))</p><p>- Once all CAs are used I fire killing instincts and horned reflex ( and I mean all bow cas, amazing shot, confounding arrow, rain of arrows if AE ok, all gets fired...).</p><p>- Refire all bow CAs as they come up ( I wait mob at 50% for sniper shot).</p><p>- If mob still alive when killing instinct down and I just used my big bow CAs I fire stream of arrows and then focus aim( usually has refreshed by that time). ( poise + stream + focus aim is actually very decent dps...)</p><p>- If fight last really long ( 3 min +) and I am getting oop I cancel adeste and puts mental breach to replenish my power fast...( which means I then loose the 10% or so of my dps coming from poison but I get to be able to use CAs again, a good trade off imo...)</p><p> </p><p>A few remarks :</p><p>- Devitalizing arrow HAS to be the second CA fired into a mob if you do not want to get parried or get misses.</p><p>- One of the reason I am top dps in raid is become my guild is a casual raiding guild ( we raid 2-3 times a week and rarely for more than 3 hours). We are sometime short on healers which means we can heal the MT but not always the dps in the other groups so if a mob AE they have to joust ( or die, I will admit I do sometime grin in real when I see an assassin biting the dust from an AE,,,).</p><p>- I have never grabbed aggro from the MT in raid since I use ignorant bliss, but most of the time if the MT dies I am the second to go as the mob makes a beeline for me.</p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:13 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:14 PM</span></p>

Ranja

04-05-2006, 12:23 AM

<div></div><p>Thanks for the reply. That is fairly simple and nothing I did not know. But I do not have much success with that approach. I would say 50% if I dont get a stun and the mobs gets to me a green ^^^ will 2 -3 shot me. I have about 30% mitigation and 62% avoidance in Defensive stance.</p><p> </p>

Carna

04-05-2006, 02:55 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>bentgate wrote:<div></div><p>Thanks for the reply. That is fairly simple and nothing I did not know. But I do not have much success with that approach. I would say 50% if I dont get a stun and the mobs gets to me a green ^^^ will 2 -3 shot me. I have about 30% mitigation and 62% avoidance in Defensive stance.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Would the answer not be to not hunt green^^^ then?... My highest level character is only level 52 so I really might just be ignorant of a factor that comes into regular play in later levels but I dont ever hunt green^^^ mobs. Yes I can kill a green^^^ with my Brigand, but I get the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked out of me doing so, so it doesn't make good hunting. For xp I hunt yellow mobs out of preference up to ^ but preferably no arrows.

04-05-2006, 03:15 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>bentgate wrote:<div></div><p>Thanks for the reply. That is fairly simple and nothing I did not know. But I do not have much success with that approach. I would say 50% if I dont get a stun and the mobs gets to me a green ^^^ will 2 -3 shot me. I have about 30% mitigation and 62% avoidance in Defensive stance.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Would the answer not be to not hunt green^^^ then?... My highest level character is only level 52 so I really might just be ignorant of a factor that comes into regular play in later levels but I dont ever hunt green^^^ mobs. Yes I can kill a green^^^ with my Brigand, but I get the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked out of me doing so, so it doesn't make good hunting. For xp I hunt yellow mobs out of preference up to ^ but preferably no arrows.<hr></blockquote><div>I don't hunt greens for xp , when I do it it is for the following reasons :</div><div> </div><div>- I am working on a heroic writs in a place where it's unlikely I will get a group to help ( example kill 15 catoxonic abominations).</div><div>- I am trying to sneak deeper in a zone and a green heroic that see through invis is bloquing my way.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Elbryan, make sure you start with focus aim on, the increase attack speed for 10 seconds helps a lot in making certain you get an early stun. And yes, poise does help a lot too in firing more CAs before the mob reaches you...</div><div> </div><div>PS : heroic blues will destroy me if I try to melee them so I am restricted to killing those in outdoor zones ( but the reduced breaking chance on snare helps a lot against those). But green heroics, especially with Point Blank shot/Rain of Arrows ( with ranged crit maxed it's not uncommon to hit for 4k dmg with it at adept 3)</div><div> to save the day if things go bad, isn't so hard.</div>

Nak

04-05-2006, 08:29 AM

Majority of you underestimate a 35% casting reduction maxing AGI line ><T6 raid zones could pull off 1200-1350 not really that hard at lvl 70 as long as other;s dps remains high ([expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] assassin doing 1900? <3 balance) T7 fights vary really and hard to compare dps when jousting AE's and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....900 dps isn't hard at all on some fights using adamantine arrows/focus fire/ brutal instinct and honed reflexes........ eh but what do i know?<span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

Mirdo

04-05-2006, 10:36 AM

<div>Nice post Ail.</div><div> </div><div>I'm finding not having a class available to haste me in raids lowers DPS pretty significantly. And last night the group Inquisitor put his DPS increase buff on the Assassin (although when I beat him on the parser a few times he did get a poke from the group). I shall be having words with that Inquis next time we group <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>I managed to grab top DPS in a few encounters in the lab last night but usually the Assassin was on top. I'm keeping ahead of the pets now in most fights but every now and then one of them seems to go on a total rampage and tears up the parser - not sure what that's all about tbh. Our wizzy seems to struggle a bit with DPS generally but did pretty well on a couple of encounters. My biggest problem is getting repectable dps on the pairs of mobs in there if rain is down.</div><div> </div><div>Without haste close to cap I *think* I'm getting better DPS on raids by jousting out of range, getting off a ranged auto then going back in for melee auto and CA's. This is a problem with available classes for our guild rather then not knowing what to do. Our haste classes tend to be in other groups for power regen reasons. On a good night everyone gets power regen and the 'core' dps group gets haste - on a bad night (like last night) we get neither.</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

Corwinus

04-05-2006, 07:05 PM

<div></div><div>Very constructive post Ail, i dont know about the other Rangers, but talking about tactics and not nerfage certainly helps me.</div><div> </div><div>Corwin Ranger 70 - Oasis</div>

Ranja

04-05-2006, 07:48 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ail wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>bentgate wrote:<div></div><p>Thanks for the reply. That is fairly simple and nothing I did not know. But I do not have much success with that approach. I would say 50% if I dont get a stun and the mobs gets to me a green ^^^ will 2 -3 shot me. I have about 30% mitigation and 62% avoidance in Defensive stance.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Would the answer not be to not hunt green^^^ then?... My highest level character is only level 52 so I really might just be ignorant of a factor that comes into regular play in later levels but I dont ever hunt green^^^ mobs. Yes I can kill a green^^^ with my Brigand, but I get the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kicked out of me doing so, so it doesn't make good hunting. For xp I hunt yellow mobs out of preference up to ^ but preferably no arrows.<hr></blockquote><div>I don't hunt greens for xp , when I do it it is for the following reasons :</div><div> </div><div>- I am working on a heroic writs in a place where it's unlikely I will get a group to help ( example kill 15 catoxonic abominations).</div><div>- I am trying to sneak deeper in a zone and a green heroic that see through invis is bloquing my way.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Elbryan, make sure you start with focus aim on, the increase attack speed for 10 seconds helps a lot in making certain you get an early stun. And yes, poise does help a lot too in firing more CAs before the mob reaches you...</div><div> </div><div>PS : heroic blues will destroy me if I try to melee them so I am restricted to killing those in outdoor zones ( but the reduced breaking chance on snare helps a lot against those). But green heroics, especially with Point Blank shot/Rain of Arrows ( with ranged crit maxed it's not uncommon to hit for 4k dmg with it at adept 3)</div><div> to save the day if things go bad, isn't so hard.</div><hr></blockquote><p>I think my question got blown out of proportion<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I dont hunt ^^^ and I never have unless I want to update a quest. Ali, I asked you how b/c from your post it seems like you do it all the time and you are professiong that are DPS is fine. I do all the things you say, ( I have been playing my Ranger since Nov 2004) and then some. From all of your posts, saying we are great DPS I thought you were out hunting ^^^ as the norm. I just wanted to know how you were doing that. I guess you are not so it clears alot up for me<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Now that you have qualified your earlier statements with this, then I see we are not much different. What really sheds light is that you say you are in a casual raiding guild and you think your DPS is fine. I am in a casual raiding guild too and I parse near the top but methinks it is because everyone else is casual and I may be the least casual of them all<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You might be in the same boat as me. If peopple in top raiding guilds with maxed characters, playing with people who are maxing DPS are parsing way lower than other DPS I think it is those people that we need to listen too.</p><p>Saying our DPS is fine, because I am in a casual raiding guild and my casual wizards, warlocks, and rogues dont parse higher than me is wrong. Maybe they are really casual and not playing to their potential and you are ( and from the sounds of it you are). See my point<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I would rahter listen to a group of players that are each playing their toon to max potential before I say my DPS is fine. I out -parse the swashie and warlock and wizard alot because their gear is not as good as mine and they are really casual. Hell, they may be AFK some of the time during raids. Like I said we are a casual raid group. When i get in PUGs with Swashies and Brigands and I parse I am always lower on the DPS totem.</p><p>I guess my point was to 1) show you that just because you parse high on your raids does not mean Ranger DPS is fine. I parse high on mine too but from what I suspect from the same reason as you. 2) You need to qualift your statements a little more when you say things like it feels good to be taking down ^^^ again. Like you are doing it all the time.</p><p>This is not an attack but it is general language like this that makes people take things out of context and cause misperceptions about the class.</p><p> </p>

04-05-2006, 08:18 PM

<div>You're probably right in your assesment of me being the most hardcore in the guild so there may be that.</div><div> </div><div>I would however like to had a few points concerning raiding :</div><div> </div><div>- I would not be so worried about being beaten dps wise by caster in raids because it is my experience that as a melee/scout equipment improves their dps improves whereas it is less the case for a caster ( even for a casual caster reaching the INT cap is not hard and a better weapon doesn't translate in better dps for them, the main dps improvement casters gets is by improving the quality of their spellls).</div><div>For example I am only using Grizzlefane's bow and I know there are better bow out there and bow auto-attack now representing close to 30% of my dps, improving my bow will noticeably improve my dps. In the same way in most raid I am only around 400 str ( casual raidings means I rarely gets the buffs I would want) and I have ample room for improvement there ( lets not get into my 23 INT <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).</div><div> </div><div>- Yes damage from others melees like monks and zerkers will improve too but in my experience their dps will still be hampered by ae spell...</div><div> </div><div>PS : I got my hand on the master version of our lvl 69 self buff ( cloak of the forest ?) and spent my first point into the parry AA in the str line and I am now sitting on 35.2% avoidance in offensive mode ( doesn't matter for raids, nice for solo though).</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>