Blackguard's Ranger -- How'd it go?

[Pleiades]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<div></div>Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>Blackguard:</div><div> </div><div>You mentioned just over a week ago (above) you were going to try a test; one that seemed quite reasonable.  How did it go?  What did the mechanics team think of their results?   Please, would you post them?</div><div> </div><div>We've done the same test with a dozen rangers over hours of grinding (two quite good, others more casual players).  We paid particular attention to DPS of the caster tier-one DPS'rs (Wizzy and Warlocks).  I can say, fairly conclusively, even if we are all Master / Adept III (on both sides) but use only summoned arrows, handcrafted poisons and potions we do less damage than a Wizzy or Warlock now.  It's perhaps more alarming that Conji. dmg w/ their pets are even a threat. </div><div> </div><div>We also do not offer their level of group, and especially raid, utility.  That much must be clear to all (give us a thorny-skin DS as in EQOA even!).</div><div> </div><div>When we go to potions and poison of legendary grade, that unbalance evens-out.  Cobalt arrows help too.  But grinding with that gear can cost more than 50g an hour.  Maybe much more.</div><div> </div><div><em>It doesn't seem fair.  It doesn't seem balanced.</em></div><div> </div><div>And no, we don't think our armour makes up for it (most would happily wear cloth in exchange for Wizzy/Warlock slows, stuns and Forge of Ro--the highly nerfed version of Thorny Trap is a pale comparison).</div><div> </div><div>Doesn't it look to your team as if the nerf really went <em>too far?</em>  This really seems to be a unfair system, it's frustrating.  Was this really the goal of the nerfing?</div><div> </div><div>-Ple</div>

[Yon]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Classified Study 18943:  Blackguard's Ranger: Blackhunter</div><div> </div><div>-Blackhunter  used a beta buff thing to have all falbed amazing gear and arrows and poisons. </div><div>-Blackhunter changed the procs back just for his ranger.</div><div>-Blackhunter was able to solo Nagafen with his Blackdeath Arrow combat art.</div><div>-Blackhunter's Arrows were edited to fly though the Plane of Time so Stream of Arrows works perfectly and there are no parries   or blocks of arrows or ranged combat arts</div><div>-Pane of Time AA allowed Blackhunter to cast all Ranged combat arts while moving</div><div>-AA buff allowed every line of AA's to be maxed out</div><div>-Permacrit allowed Blackhunter to DPS for about 4000 a second</div><div>-Thorny Trap's due to Blackdeath AA was able to root the entire zone</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Conclusion of Study 18943:</div><div> Rangers DPS was out of wack becasue rangers could to 4000 DPS a second over 20 minutes, clearly needed to be nerfed to restore ballance. </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Blackguard on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:38 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Blackguard on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:40 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Yonar on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:42 PM</span></p>

[Longtrang]

<div></div>Yes please. I would like to hear an update, if there is one.

[Taubin]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Longtrang wrote:<div></div>Yes please. I would like to hear an update, if there is one.<hr></blockquote>I really dont' mean to de-rail the thread at all whatsoever period, but, I have a quick question for you Longtrang, is your name a Carlos Hathcock reference?  If not, dis-reguard I ever asked that <span>:smileywink:</span></span></div>

[Sirlutt]

I too am really interested in what was found.. if in fact this ever took place.<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><hr><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><font color="#ffff00">2) I'll admit to being out of touch with KoS on live servers, because I'm getting myself owned on Nagafen pretty repeatedly at the moment instead of playing my PvE character. <img width="16" border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" height="16">But anyway, I'll see what others think about instancing these zones temporarily, at least until the population spreads out a bit.</font></div></blockquote><div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><p><font color="#999999">Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</font></p><div><span><span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">02-24-2006</font></span><span class="time_text">02:50</span></span></div><div><span><span class="time_text"></span></span> </div></blockquote><span><span class="time_text"><div><hr></div><p></span></span> </p><p>Sorry Blackgaurd has been reassigned to the PvP servers.  In 6-9 months when he tires of getting owned in PvP he may get back and check out this rumored issue with Rangers.</p><p> </p>

[Longtrang]

<div></div><p>Yup,</p><p>Long Trang =White Feather - I like the sniper reference.  Lets face it Carlos would have kicked Chuck Norris's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] (from like 500 meters) -)</p>

[KongstadPS]

<div></div><p>Oooh I'd like him to try a ranger on nagafen then. Try and chase freeporters around with CONSTANT "cant see target" "interupted" "target is out of range" when neither of the three applies.</p><p>Or perhaps level your group around in ANT or TS for an hour an all of the sudden the track window doesn't open nothing happends when clicking the skill!</p><p>Or what about being a ranger in a group with a swashbuckler, then to be group stealthed and normally stealthed, yet still unable to use your "stealthed" attacks such as "hidden shot"</p>

[z3oslo]

<div></div>pay attention to LU21B when it reach the test server.

[Sirlutt]

I called him out on it in another thread .. heres his <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=pvp&message.id=29461#M29461">response</a>.Be interested to see what it is, if it works i might even uncancel my accounts.<div></div>

[Amara Peacegiver]

So in other words we need to remain broken for another month before finding out if we're being fixed or nerfed further.Any bets on which one it will be?<div></div>

[Writer Cal]

<div></div>By the way he worded his comment (said hopefully and winked) and the test update 21 notes, I'd think he saw that we needed some help.

[Kasm]

<div></div>Well personally would be nice if Blackguard would at least pop onto our board and tell us anything.  Shut up and color or hey this is whats going on anything would be nice.  I have PM'ed him asking him to at least do what I just ask.  Maybe he is just sick of us and the lack of response is like the cereal commercial where they ask Johnson what he would do.  As he sits there crunching his cereal the great Johnson do nothing and make them think we are uninterested comes to mind.

[Star]

<div></div><p>Best we'll probably get is this:</p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=pvp&message.id=29461#M29461">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=pvp&message.id=29461#M29461</a></p>

[pharacyde]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Pleiades wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<div></div>Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><hr></blockquote><div>Blackguard:</div><div> </div><div>You mentioned just over a week ago (above) you were going to try a test; one that seemed quite reasonable.  How did it go?  What did the mechanics team think of their results?   Please, would you post them?</div><div> </div><div>We've done the same test with a dozen rangers over hours of grinding (two quite good, others more casual players).  We paid particular attention to DPS of the caster tier-one DPS'rs (Wizzy and Warlocks).  I can say, fairly conclusively, even if we are all Master / Adept III (on both sides) but use only summoned arrows, handcrafted poisons and potions we do less damage than a Wizzy or Warlock now.  It's perhaps more alarming that Conji. dmg w/ their pets are even a threat. </div><div> </div><div>We also do not offer their level of group, and especially raid, utility.  That much must be clear to all (give us a thorny-skin DS as in EQOA even!).</div><div> </div><div>When we go to potions and poison of legendary grade, that unbalance evens-out.  Cobalt arrows help too.  But grinding with that gear can cost more than 50g an hour.  Maybe much more.</div><div> </div><div><em>It doesn't seem fair.  It doesn't seem balanced.</em></div><div> </div><div>And no, we don't think our armour makes up for it (most would happily wear cloth in exchange for Wizzy/Warlock slows, stuns and Forge of Ro--the highly nerfed version of Thorny Trap is a pale comparison).</div><div> </div><div>Doesn't it look to your team as if the nerf really went <em>too far?</em>  This really seems to be a unfair system, it's frustrating.  Was this really the goal of the nerfing?</div><div> </div><div>-Ple</div><hr></blockquote><p>Being owned by another T1 dps class doesn't mean you are broken or that something is wrong. Being owned by a conjuror might be considered broken. This is probably true for grouping and in a bad group setup for rangers. </p><p>Did you try to find a better group setup for the ranger ? Ranger + dirge + brigand + monk + inq + tank ? Basicly when my guild goes xp for grinding we make a caster grind grp and a melee grind group. I don't see any big difference in damage output from both groups. I mean it's easy to say, hey those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] casters do more damage then me, when you have a troubadour that buffs the casters up and not you ...  </p><p>After the LU20 we did a few raids (scaleborn, court and gates) and I still felt like being T1 dps. I parsed number 1 quite a few times. The other T1 dps won a few times also. So I think you just had a wrong group setup for your ranger.</p><p>In a bad group I only do around 400-500dps with my ranger, and I have to work hard for it. In the right group setup I can easily break the 700dps.</p><p>Just a thought.</p>

[TwistedFaith]

Blackguard was last seen in KoS running off a cliff desperately trying to get away from a lvl 55 triple arrow down solo mob whilst yelling "working as intended"

[snack-machine]

<div></div>Ok, now that's just plain funny!

[illum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>pharacyde wrote:<div></div><p>Being owned by another T1 dps class doesn't mean you are broken or that something is wrong. Being owned by a conjuror might be considered broken. This is probably true for grouping and in a bad group setup for rangers. </p><p>Did you try to find a better group setup for the ranger ? Ranger + dirge + brigand + monk + inq + tank ? Basicly when my guild goes xp for grinding we make a caster grind grp and a melee grind group. I don't see any big difference in damage output from both groups. I mean it's easy to say, hey those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] casters do more damage then me, when you have a troubadour that buffs the casters up and not you ...  </p><p>After the LU20 we did a few raids (scaleborn, court and gates) and I still felt like being T1 dps. I parsed number 1 quite a few times. The other T1 dps won a few times also. So I think you just had a wrong group setup for your ranger.</p><p>In a bad group I only do around 400-500dps with my ranger, and I have to work hard for it. In the right group setup I can easily break the 700dps.</p><p>Just a thought.</p><hr></blockquote><p>That's in a well balanced group where everyone helps each other out (either that or the group members all sucked)...but if you put a ranger side by side against another t1 character, it becomes very apparent that rangers are no longer t1 dps...that's the true test...with the right backing, a guardian could be t1 dps...say him, with a buff pet and the rest healers, he could very well hit t1 dps for his group in fights :smileytongue:</p><p>the only other thing i can say is we're <strong>supposed</strong> to be able to dish nearly as much damage as sorcerers (if you believe soe) and should be able to solo the same content as other t1...the way things stand, this is obviously not the case.</p>

[Gailstryd]

<div></div>Bringing what you can do in a "well balanced group" into the equation isn't going to fix it.  Hell the dps we were doing because of "well balanced" groups is part of the reason they swung so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard.  The problem lies inthe fact that if you are in a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] group with no real extra dps affecting buffs all teh other t1 dps beat us on a regular basis and we are also being beat by t2 and even t3 dps on a regular basis.  Don't wave around this crap about getting X amount of dps in your uber put every proc dps increasing buff known to man on me group, because doing so is only going to produce more unrealistic numbers for the idiots and trolls ot wave around about how we need to stay broke.   The bottom line is we get out dps'd far to easily and far to often by far to many classes when there are no extra buffs going around and to suggest that in order for us to "play properly" we need to always have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] troub,zerker, conj, etc, etc uber buff you up group just to do our jobs is ridicules.  Getting uber grouped adn doing the same numbers as those without uber groups doesn't equal balance and what a class can do when grouped with every uber buffing class in the game shouldn't be considered at all when looking at balancing the base line.  Uber buff groups are the extra icing on the cake, you know your class/game/otherclasses so well you can increase efficiency X%.  Not something that should be considered status quo or even close to it.  I can guarantee you if Wizards got to trolly around in hate sink groups that let them unleash the beast without fear all the time they'd be in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] gutter with us.

[The_Wind]

I will say this again.  If i'm sposed to be able to outdamage a wizard occassionally, and them outdamage me occassionally, then WHY, WHY am I REQUIRED to buy poisons just to maintain this?  It is an added cost rangers have to assume now BECAUSE we wantt o be able to just maintain T1 dps.  We REQUIRE random bouts from procs/poisons for our DPS.  Wizards aren't required to do this.  They don't rely on procs to dish out most of their damage.  So not only is our damage random in some degrees, we pay for it, and the only thing we have to make up for it is chain and leather armor.<div></div>

[Bithnar]

<div><blockquote><hr>The_Wind wrote:So not only is our damage random in some degrees, we pay for it, and the only thing we have to make up for it is chain and leather armor.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Dont forget our Disarm trap, Pathfinding, tracking skills :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Gareorn]

<div></div>Yes, I can't count how many times tracking saved my butt.  You'll find, when used properly, you can hit the tracking button just as you go into the red.  This will allow you see all the other mobs in the area right before you die.  No other class in the game has this kind of utilitie.  We desreve to be nerfed.

[USAFJeeper]

<div></div><div>My problem is not being owned by "other" T1 DPS, its being owned by rogues, bards, mages of all stripes and even the occaisional berserker!</div><div> </div><div>No I am not having trouble getting groups but its frustrating to not be doing even half the damage I was doing before..  I am not one of those getting the near mythical 4K either, I was a stodgy 700-800 DPS guy.  I just want to be able to outdamage them when they are afk at least.</div>

[Saihung23]

<blockquote><hr>Longtrang wrote:<div></div><p>Yup,</p><p>Long Trang =White Feather - I like the sniper reference.  Lets face it Carlos would have kicked Chuck Norris's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] (from like 500 meters) -)</p><hr></blockquote><p>I love the reference to Carlos Hathcock, as a former Marine I always thought that Carlos would have made a badass ranger <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>I loved reading Sniper in boot camp and still have my copy that I bought on Parris Island.  For all rangers out there, that is an excellent read.</p><p>Now here is a question for you, what is the name of that book about a sniper during the French Revolution.  When I was in MRP they had me read that and it was also great, however I cant recall the name of it.</p><p>I will give you my level 50 ranger if you can tell me O.o</p><p>Saihung</p>

[Pleiades]

<div></div><p>Phar:</p><p>It wasn't one group, or even a few, it was every combination we could reasonably get to together!  There is something wrong with Ranger DPS, <strong><em><u>in general</u></em></strong>.  IMHO, clearly wrong.</p><p>But to heck with me--who am I to say!?  That's why I'd like to hear about Blackgruard's test results and any results from the mechanics team as well. </p><p>I see Lockeye (an EQ2 designer) has indicated there are some problems they've noticed (see also his his post from today in these forums).</p><p>-Ple</p><p> </p>

[strider19]

<hr width="100%" size="2"><p>Oooh I'd like him to try a ranger on nagafen then. Try and chase freeporters around with CONSTANT "cant see target" "interupted" "target is out of range" when neither of the three applies.</p><p>Or perhaps level your group around in ANT or TS for an hour an all of the sudden the track window doesn't open nothing happends when clicking the skill!</p><p>Or what about being a ranger in a group with a swashbuckler, then to be group stealthed and normally stealthed, yet still unable to use your "stealthed" attacks such as "hidden shot"</p><hr width="100%" size="2">lol so true, that is just a taste of ranger problems.  We do have tons of bugs, but aside from that it's our dps and zero utility.  I think the OP said it best, just reread all that and you will get factual evidence of why we need to be unnerfed.  BTW when is patch 21 coming out?  I hope not months from now, and I pray it makes a difference.<div></div>

[Azzazal]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Being owned by another T1 dps class doesn't mean you are broken or that something is wrong. Being owned by a conjuror might be considered broken. This is probably true for grouping and in a bad group setup for rangers. <p>Did you try to find a better group setup for the ranger ? Ranger + dirge + brigand + monk + inq + tank ? Basicly when my guild goes xp for grinding we make a caster grind grp and a melee grind group. I don't see any big difference in damage output from both groups. I mean it's easy to say, hey those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] casters do more damage then me, when you have a troubadour that buffs the casters up and not you ...  </p><p>After the LU20 we did a few raids (scaleborn, court and gates) and I still felt like being T1 dps. I parsed number 1 quite a few times. The other T1 dps won a few times also. So I think you just had a wrong group setup for your ranger.</p><p>In a bad group I only do around 400-500dps with my ranger, and I have to work hard for it. In the right group setup I can easily break the 700dps.</p><p>Just a thought.</p><hr></blockquote>Thats absolute nonsense! lets see parse data on this, youre not sitting there telling the rest of the community that we are still up in t1 dps stakes. Also rangers SHOULDNT be reliant on a good group set up to gain t1 dps nor should we need to cover huge costs to gain decent sort of standing.Im staying off my beloved Azzazal till some fix is in place, BG if you read this kindly remember that the seasoned Vets on this board have parsed and parsed till they have hard data, the problems have indeed been indentified and the up coming changes look ok but will they put us bac into t1 dps on SOLO and group content?Me? well id love to see ALL classes stopped solo'ing ANY heroics. Seems to me in this game lately wear a gown and you can take out content that was designed for groups. Isnt just the rangers that are broken take a look at other clasees to AGAIN....PPS My bruiser still takes out stuff he shouldnt solo wise and my monk may as well sit on his hands for all he can solo..Unbalanced doesnt even cover it for me.Azzazal 60 rangerrangering since the verant days of eqTarheru 53 the bruiserHermit "omg" i get so owned by Tar the 48 monk.</span></div>