The problem with arrows

[ADW123]

<div>I would like to talk some about the problems that exist with arrows in this game. I believe that as a ranger is should be entirely possible to play our class solely with the bow. The base damage of the bow should be able to keep up w/ the base damage of equivalent close combat weapons w/o any extra costs. Since the recent nerfs I've found myself spending more and more gold on high quality arrows just to keep my damage up to a reasonable level. I hate spending dozens of gold every night just to sustain the base damage of my weapon.</div><div> </div><div>Now, it certainly is possible to play solely from range with your bow but at the moment it is extremely expensive. Currently when calculating the damage of a bow, the base damage of the bow, and the arrow quality are taken into account. In order for a bow to do its full potential damage you must use the same quality arrow as the tier you are in. Using anything lesser than this and your bows damage will be decrease proportially to the quality of the arrow. You could have the best bow in the game but if you are using a tin arrow that bow is only doing about 5% of its potential damage. This is why a bow that does 80-400 damage will hit for about 25 when using a tin arrow. This is also why currently many rangers are meleeing then rushing out to shoot a few bow ca's and back into melee again. It is simply too expensive to play using the highest quality arrows.</div><div> </div><div>Before the recent nerf this wasn't a big deal, 60% of our damage came from poisons and because the arrow quality didn't matter when using our ca's everyone just bought tin and things were fine. Spending more on the higher quality arrows only increased dps by a small unnoticable amount when compared to the excessive cost to sustain this increase. Now that poisons rarely proc a larger percent of the rangers total dps is coming from the bow. Just to survive while soloing and perform reasonably in groups and raids the ranger must use higher quality arrows. Very few can afford to do this.</div><div> </div><div>It simply does not make sense that one class should be forced to pay a re-occuring cost to use their weapon. Blades do not need to be periodically sharpened. Staves and bo's do not need to be rewrapped and repaired, from normal use. It should not work this way when using a bow. All rangers are at a disadvantage over other classes that do not rely on a bow.</div><div> </div><div>I think a good way to fix this problem would simply be to remove all qualities of arrows from the vendors. Replace them with 3 standard arrow types. Slash arrow, Pierce arrow, Crush arrow. Make them cheap, a few cp each and readily available through the game, so it is not a burden on rangers to keep themselves stocked. Next allow woodworkers to craft enhanced arrows for each tier. Make them cheap enough to sell for reasonable prices and in large enough qualities so that crafting them is not absolute hell as it is currently. A stack of common Tier 7 arrows for 50 sp cost would be reasonable in my opinion. Maybe 5gp a stack for rare arrows.</div><div><div> </div><div>Some examples of some enhancements that could be added to the common version could be:</div><div>-Percent increase to damage. 1% for Tier 1 arrows, 7% for Tier 7 arrows.</div><div>-Percent increase to chance to hit. 1% for Tier 1 arrows, 7% for Tier 7 arrows.</div><div>-Change the damage type to fire/cold/poison/disease/divine/mental. This would allow rangers to specialize for certain encounters that are weaker towards certain resists. Making a raid mob completely immune to physical damage wouldn't be such a ridiculus thing to implement with something like this.</div><div> </div><div>Some examples of some enhancements that could be added to the rare version in addition to one of the above could be:</div><div>-Percent chance to land a critical hit.</div><div>-Small chance to proc a small debuff.</div><div>-Small chance to proc a small dot/nuke</div><div> </div><div>I certainly don't expect all of these to be implemented but something needs to be done. Especially after the recent nerfs, just for me to keep my dps decent I'm forced to spend so much gold on arrows. It needs to end. Let me know how you feel about this. Any other ideas? Anyone think that arrows should stay as is etc? Give me some feedback.</div><div> </div><div>Sacrifice</div><div>63 Ranger</div><div>Unrest</div><div> </div></div>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><div>Like it or loathe it, they will never give us a cheap way of getting appropriate tier arrows in the quantities we need. The reason - tradeskillers. It's also the reason we will always be reliant on poison for the damage procs to get us to the correct tier of damage.</div><div> </div><div>Although in the post below Beghn calls damage from appropriate arrows and posion 'bonus' damage for special occassions, the reality is that we need to use them all the time to keep up with our T1 counterparts. Maybe the mechanics guys don't speak and it's not realised that the poison isn't a 'nice to have' but rather an absolute necessity to do our job.</div><div> </div><div>It does make me wonder how much cash the rep. that threatened to play a Ranger for a bit tweaked himself to test these issues. I wonder if he's gone to the market place on a number of servers and tried to buy arrows an poisons at all tiers. I wonder if he plans on trying out a fast moving group for 4 or 5 hours and seeing how much cash he has to dump that night to stay competitive. </div><div> </div><div>Karver made a post about this recently (begn is the tradeskill mechanics guy):</div><div> </div><div><div><span><span>Beghn</span></span> wrote:<font color="#ffff00">Ammo currently player made ammo isn't highly used which needs to change these need to be the standard that adventurers want to buy.  They can get by with store bought ammo but should rather want player crafted ammo. </font>and then in response to a ranger that stated that on a grind night he uses 3500-4000 arrows which for <span>T6</span> vendor bought arrows would be 1.36 plat( and of course woodworkers should be getting paid more than the NPC vendors.)Now unlike the ranger that responded to that thread I have never used 4000 arrows in a night but then I don't care to grind for hours on end.  I can say that I have emptied my quiver including the arrows I summoned while we were fighting and that comes out to about 2000 arrows. <font color="#ffff00">While we can't control the prices of arrows that players make we can adjust the functionality of them.  Don't worry we won't be unbalancing the game by making player made ammo so unbalanced your considered "</font><font color="#ffff00"><span><span>nerfed</span></span></font><font color="#ffff00">" unless your using rare t7 arrows.  Rare ammo/potions/poisons aren't </font><font color="#ffff00"><span><span>ment</span></span></font><font color="#ffff00">to be used every time you go out adventuring they are supposed to be a perk that you might use on a raid boss or a hard encounter.  We </font><font color="#ffff00"><span><span>deffinatly</span></span></font><font color="#ffff00">will be considering costs when making these items so we don't end up "</font><font color="#ffff00"><span><span>nerfing</span></span></font><font color="#ffff00">" rangers.</font>Ben</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Well he keeps thinking we will call this a nerf... It is not a nerf but an compounding of bad thinking ... yet again i will state this ... we are the worst hit class on the fact that we have to BUY our dps... what little we have left .. and now he is talking about making us more dependant on a limited resource.. and can you say price war... HAVE YOU NOT LEARNED ANYTHING FROM GAS PRICES IN RL ECONOMICS... sign ..</div><div> </div><div>Please ... Please ... listen to us ..  stop tying our best DPS options to bought consumable resoruces... going down this path and exasperating the situation is not helpfull... at least the NPC arrows where a controlled cost... and do not give me well you do not have to use them if you do not want to deal...</div><div> </div><div>who the hell wants to group with a ranger that says well i could be better... but i am to cheap to buy the proper items to function at my peak rate... hell why do you think everyone and there mother runs phasers ..to check who doing what in group and pulling there weight...</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div></div>

[subari]

<div></div><div></div><p>/thumbsup ADW123</p><p>Superb statement.</p><p>Greetings</p><p>suba</p><p>Message Edited by subaridu on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:48 PM</span></p>

[Teksun]

Actually, there is a way around the Tradeskill problem, AND solve our DPS as well. Let crafters make PROCing arrows. they could have different procs and do more damage per tier (give MoBs a save but it will ALWAYS proc). Very few pwople would use these outside of special encounters because it would be cost prohibitive...<div></div>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<div></div>Teksun, but then we need a damage increase to be T1 without those items, if poisons and rare arrows are perks then without them we should be T1, and not sure about you all but as it is now with adestes,shissar I have to fight to get near t1. Without them im well behind the T1 curve.

[Bithnar]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>ADW123 wrote:<div> </div><div>A stack of common Tier 7 arrows for 50 sp cost would be reasonable in my opinion. Maybe 5gp a stack for rare arrows.</div><div><div> </div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I am also a woodcrafter with my Ranger and I can tell you no woodcrafter would sell a stack of T7 arrows for 50sp.  One reason is because of Space.  In a normal Inn room you can have two boxes in you bank with, not sure of the T7 boxes, but a total of around 70 vault spaces.  Another reason is because of the fuel cost to make the arrow - One final combine on the arrows only makes 25 arrows.  Another reason is money vs. time</p><p>On the crafting each final combine on the totems produces 3 totems, wereas the final combine on arrows only makes 25.  So to fill those 70 vault spaces I need about 23 final combines for totems and 277 final combines for the arrows.  And lets not get into the fuel costs at T7 (i wont get into it cause I havent looked at it yet :smileyvery-happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>At lvl 43 woodworker I can make 70 totems of the chamelon (invis totem) and sell them for 1g each for a total of 70g or I can spend as 12 times as much time making 70 stacks of arrows and sell them for 50sp each 50sp x 70 = 35g not hard to do the math.</p><p>Unless they make a BIG change in how arrows are crafted it isn't gonna happen.  At least not for 50sp a stack.</p><p>Edit:</p><p>I just checked.  Both use the same number of fuels (just different ones) from begining to final combine so the fuel costs are the same.  Eleven total fuels are used (I didn't count water cause its cheap).  I dont know the fuel costs per tier. </p><p>Message Edited by Bithnar on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:04 AM</span></p>

[Katzil]

<div>I'd like to add to what Bithnar has posted above. </div><div> </div><div>I've got a 63 ranger .. and all nine tradeskillers ranging now between 60 and 63.  (Woodworker is 62)</div><div> </div><div>That means, up to T6, I've pretty much crafted every item in the game (other than the revamped lowest 2 tiers). </div><div> </div><div>Without ANY hesitation, I can tell you that crafting arrows is the <strong>single worst combine in the game</strong> .. and by a significant margin. </div><div> </div><div>Making rare arrows is fairly decent experience for a woodworker going through that particular xp band .. to be sure .. but making 15 arrows takes me longer to do than making a pristine imbued BP on my armorer (and that ain't trivial). </div><div> </div><div>The fuel costs are out of whack (Bithnar gave the numbers).  Numerous subcombines.  The need for rare components (cobalt ingots are a by-product of making cobalt gear).  The absolute painful length of time it takes to complete each combine (I'd guess it's 50% more time to make an arrow combine than a 'normal' combine .. but that's just an approximation based on making lots) .. compounded by LOTS MORE critical failures (events that set you back while making an item) than almost any other recipe I can think of (yes provisioners, it's worse than coffee at the first level you can make it! :smileyhappy: )</div><div> </div><div>With an armorer and a weaponsmith, having cobalt ingots is not a problem for me.  I can even make those arrows cheaper than most, because I don't have to rely on secondary skills to use double fuels. </div><div> </div><div>Yet I can tell you .. I have maybe a couple stacks in my quiver on any given day .. tops.  I bring them out for Christmas and the odd boss mob.  They're simply not worth the time to make .. even for me. </div><div> </div><div>Now, the Great Ranger Nerf of LU20 has me making more now .. just to keep up DPS.  Odds are, I'll try to force myself into the pain of making more in the future.  My point is, please don't harass the poor woodworkers.  It's one miserable combine right now. </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Bayler_x]

My suggestion is to get rid of arrows as a consumable good.  Bow users keep a "bundle of arrows" in their ammo slot that dictates damage type and maybe gives other characteristics too.  They should be attunable, so that adventurers need to keep buying new ones every tier.  They can come in varying degrees of quality, just like any other weapon.There is <b>no way</b> that SOE can balance any kind of consumable, unless all classes have an approximately equal need of them.  Potions and totems and food are balanced enough, in that they provide benefits that everyone can use.  Poisons aren't balanced, but they're not a big deal right now.  But arrows are completely out of whack; they have an entirely different impact on rangers than other classes, just like procs used to.  And like procs, SOE will have to choose whether to balance arrows for rangers, balance them for non-rangers, or make a change to how they're handled.  Giving us the makeshift arrow line was a nice patchwork solution, but it doesn't scale adequately; it doesn't solve the problem.Let's face it, almost no RPG ever has succeeded in making limited ammunition a <b>fun</b> aspect of gameplay.  Forget for a moment about the realism factor; what would it take for mechanics to be equivalent across the board?  You'd have to introduce new consumbales that other classes need on a similar scale.  Necros would need their 4000 bat wings; templars their peridots.  Melee classes would need to buy 4000 whet stones from weaponsmiths before each night's hunting. Changing arrows to non-consumables would allow the devs to create new arrow content that they can't right now.  If they want to introduce a new arrow type right now, they have to worry about making it powerful enough to be appealing to non-rangers, but not powerful enough to give rangers an unfair advantage - an impossible dillemma.  They would also have the impossible task of limiting how many of the new arrow are in play: if they make it too rare/expensive, nobody will ever bother to use it.; if they make it too common, it will be used at every possible opertunity, and create adventure-power imbalances.  (Look at rare poisons for an example of how hard that sort of thing is to balance.)On the other hand, by making ammunition a durable good, like bows and swords and helms, the devs can encourage other classes to use archery more.  (If it affected only autoattack, there wouldn't be a big imbalance between rangers and others.)  They could, if they wanted, have mob-dropped shadowknight-only arrow bundles.  At the very least, players would be encouraged to carry a bundle of each piercing, slashing, and crushing types, if they use bows much.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">Ammo currently player made ammo isn't highly used which needs to change these need to be the standard that adventurers want to buy.  They can get by with store bought ammo but should rather want player crafted ammo. </font><hr><p>This is the statement that scares me.  Why?  Because the easiest way to make crafted ammo more desireable is to reduce the damage provided by the store bought and summoned ammo.  This would have the effect of Rangers, and only Rangers, having to spend more money just to maintain our current [sic] DPS.</p><p>And we know from past experience, that the devs always make the change that is the easiest to implement.</p>

[ADW123]

<blockquote><hr>Bithnar wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>ADW123 wrote:<div> </div><div>A stack of common Tier 7 arrows for 50 sp cost would be reasonable in my opinion. Maybe 5gp a stack for rare arrows.</div><div><div> </div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I am also a woodcrafter with my Ranger and I can tell you no woodcrafter would sell a stack of T7 arrows for 50sp.  One reason is because of Space.  In a normal Inn room you can have two boxes in you bank with, not sure of the T7 boxes, but a total of around 70 vault spaces.  Another reason is because of the fuel cost to make the arrow - One final combine on the arrows only makes 25 arrows.  Another reason is money vs. time</p><p>On the crafting each final combine on the totems produces 3 totems, wereas the final combine on arrows only makes 25.  So to fill those 70 vault spaces I need about 23 final combines for totems and 277 final combines for the arrows.  And lets not get into the fuel costs at T7 (i wont get into it cause I havent looked at it yet :smileyvery-happy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>At lvl 43 woodworker I can make 70 totems of the chamelon (invis totem) and sell them for 1g each for a total of 70g or I can spend as 12 times as much time making 70 stacks of arrows and sell them for 50sp each 50sp x 70 = 35g not hard to do the math.</p><p>Unless they make a BIG change in how arrows are crafted it isn't gonna happen.  At least not for 50sp a stack.</p><p>Edit:</p><p>I just checked.  Both use the same number of fuels (just different ones) from begining to final combine so the fuel costs are the same.  Eleven total fuels are used (I didn't count water cause its cheap).  I dont know the fuel costs per tier. </p><p>Message Edited by Bithnar on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:04 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't have a woodworker so my knowledge in the area is limited. I do know they are a huge pain to make, several combines and 2gp+ cost for 25 arrows at tier 7 is ridiculus and I can understand why no one in their right mind would craft them. I'm sure something can be done though to make them a reasonable item to sell. Possibly increase the stack size to 500 or 1000. What would need to be done to make them worthwhile to sell for you? or even to just make for yourself?</p><p>As far my estimates for 50sp a stack for common and 5gp a stack for rare, these were at cost. Obviously you would have some markup on the broker, possibly selling at 1gp/8-10gp a stack or whatnot. I think we can agree that something needs to be done w/ those combines since they are such a waste of time and impossible to sell as it is.</p><p>Sacrifice63 RangerUnrest</p>

[ADW123]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div><p></p><hr><font color="#ffff00">Ammo currently player made ammo isn't highly used which needs to change these need to be the standard that adventurers want to buy.  They can get by with store bought ammo but should rather want player crafted ammo. </font><hr><p>This is the statement that scares me.  Why?  Because the easiest way to make crafted ammo more desireable is to reduce the damage provided by the store bought and summoned ammo.  This would have the effect of Rangers, and only Rangers, having to spend more money just to maintain our current DPS.</p><p>And we know from past experience, that the devs always make the change that is the easiest to implement.</p><hr></blockquote><div>I think that using the way I have things laid out this is how things would work. With the cheap vendor bought arrows rangers would get by doing the full potential damage of their bow but crafted would still be wanted to help get that extra boost in dps.</div><div> </div><div>I can certainly see how they will screw this up though. The way he mentions it, it sounds like they are going to implement arrow combines that will need to be used to get the full damage from our bow and not even offer them on vendors making things even worse than they are now</div><div> </div><div>Sacrifice63 RangerUnrest</div><p>Message Edited by ADW123 on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:46 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by ADW123 on <span class="date_text">03-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:46 PM</span></p>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><font color="#99ff99">Why dont the merchants in KoS sell Adamantine arrows? For the love of God they are selling FULGINATE!!!!!!!</font>

[Carna]

<div></div>I'd like to hear a dev try and justify why Rangers have to pay to do t2 and less damage....Until they can justify the cost, the cost simply needs to be removed.

[Kelader]

<div></div><p>I think that an alternative would be to change the summon arrow spell line to:</p><p>1.  Summon an appropiate level of arrow.  At level 44 I can only summon feyiron and won't be able to summon fulginate until 48.  I will never be never be able to summon appropiate arrows for my ironwood bow when I am in my 50's.  This may have not been a big deal back when procs supplied the damage but it sure as heck is now.</p><p>2.  Summon an increased number of arrows.  Should be along the lines of 50 at apprentice 1, 100 at adept 1, 200 at master.  The current number of arrows summoned is not appropiate for the rate of use.</p><p>I have not seen evidence that woodworkers sell many arrows - I don't think its going to change their lives much.</p><p> </p>

[ADW123]

<div></div><p>1. It appears they are heading in this direction already. The level 62 arrow summon now summons adamantine arrows. They simply need to upgrade the lower summons to provide better quality arrows.</p><p>2. This would certainly help things if they increased this quite a bit.</p><p>Woodworkers don't sell many arrows because they cost more to make then to buy off the vendor and to make a stack of arrows takes about 15 minutes. If they changed these to be cheaper and faster to make this might be something worth selling.</p><p>Sacrifice63 RangerUnrest</p>

[Teksun]

Actually, what they NEED to do is have ONE summon arrows and have it upgrade with level. That way you can take it at master 2 or buy/find master one and not have to worry about it ever again...<div></div>

[dubbs]

<div></div><p>I like both Shader and Sacrifice's ideas, but more partial to Shader's.  The idea of attunable, non-consumable bundles of arrows is very appealing.  The constantly recurring costs of purchasing 3000 arrows a day has never sat well with me (and yes I have Adept 3 Summon arrows, but it's not enough).  I could palate it up until recently (Live Update 20) when I could no longer get by with my tin arrows. </p><p>I believe the ability to purchase and use a bundle of arrows, just like you would a melee weapon, or any piece of gear is a fair approach.  I know this is a game, so realism can only go so far, but when you think about it, why don't tanks have to repair their gear more often (not talking repairs from death), the mob is beating on them all day and they incur the same repair costs as everybody else?  Mages don't have spell components, why not?  Additionally, melee fighters should have to carry whet stones, to continually sharpen their weapon after each fight.   It just doesn't make sence to have these extra unnecessary burdens, so why should consumable arrows be any different?</p><p>Woodworkers don't craft Arrows in anywhere near the scale that would be required to keep the Ranger Community in stock, much less every other class that needs them as well.  I think this would change, if they had craftable bundles, that people would buy one time (per tier of course).  Make common and rare bundle types, as well as Crushing, Slashing, Piercing.  This is less an issue since outright Immunities were removed, but still a viable option, that many, if not all rangers would buy all 3.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[papasmurf1004]

<div></div><div></div><p>The problem with the new T7 pickup arrows is that they are still classed as lvl 50 arrows the same as indium. How is that even possible. I agree with the pricing issues and the making of arrows like many of us i have a woodworker but still do not make my own arrows because basically it sucks to do. So i guess i will see more ranger doing what i saw one do the other day and that is stand somewhere safe and macro pick up arrows for the hours they are asleep. And even then they are only getting lvl 50 arrows. Silly SOE. But i will say on a good note I love the changes now, it really seperates the good rangers from the not so good ones and we can still do uber damage you just need to adjust your play style a little. (but don't bother trying to solo heriocs lol)</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by papasmurf1004 on <span class="date_text">03-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:44 AM</span></p>

[Sirlutt]

the current problem i see aswell is that the arrows consumed when you use a bow CA are "wasted" .. if you have a stack of crafted arrows in there and they are being used for your auto attacks, thats great but as soon as you hit triple shot you use 3 of them up, and get no extra damage what so ever.  You could have used tin arrows for that CA and got the same damage.  I go through alot of arrows, mainly because of my CA's.I'd ask that CA's use the lowest tier arrows in the quiver and auto attack uses the highest tier available.<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>dubbs wrote:<div></div><p>I like both Shader and Sacrifice's ideas, but more partial to Shader's.  The idea of attunable, non-consumable bundles of arrows is very appealing.  The constantly recurring costs of purchasing 3000 arrows a day has never sat well with me (and yes I have Adept 3 Summon arrows, but it's not enough).  I could palate it up until recently (Live Update 20) when I could no longer get by with my tin arrows. </p><p>I believe the ability to purchase and use a bundle of arrows, just like you would a melee weapon, or any piece of gear is a fair approach.  I know this is a game, so realism can only go so far, but when you think about it, why don't tanks have to repair their gear more often (not talking repairs from death), the mob is beating on them all day and they incur the same repair costs as everybody else?  Mages don't have spell components, why not?  Additionally, melee fighters should have to carry whet stones, to continually sharpen their weapon after each fight.   It just doesn't make sence to have these extra unnecessary burdens, so why should consumable arrows be any different?</p><p>Woodworkers don't craft Arrows in anywhere near the scale that would be required to keep the Ranger Community in stock, much less every other class that needs them as well.  I think this would change, if they had craftable bundles, that people would buy one time (per tier of course).  Make common and rare bundle types, as well as Crushing, Slashing, Piercing.  This is less an issue since outright Immunities were removed, but still a viable option, that many, if not all rangers would buy all 3.</p><p> </p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>i kind of like that actually.  Quivers were a nice addition but really what should have happened was a bundle of arrows type item that you equip in youre ranged slot.  Almost like a endless quiver, but for everyone.  Make slash/pierce/crushing .. make rare versions of each.. make versions that are imbued (take the imbuement off of the bows)also, do the same for throwing weapons ..</span></div>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>papasmurf1004 wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>The problem with the new T7 pickup arrows is that they are still classed as lvl 50 arrows the same as indium. How is that even possible. I agree with the pricing issues and the making of arrows like many of us i have a woodworker but still do not make my own arrows because basically it sucks to do. So i guess i will see more ranger doing what i saw one do the other day and that is stand somewhere safe and macro pick up arrows for the hours they are asleep. And even then they are only getting lvl 50 arrows. Silly SOE. But i will say on a good note I love the changes now, <font color="#ffff00">it really seperates the good rangers from the not so good ones and we can still do uber damage you just need to adjust your play style a little</font>. (but don't bother trying to solo heriocs lol)</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by papasmurf1004 on <span class="date_text">03-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:44 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#99ff99">I dont know if I'd say <em>uber </em>, but......  <font size="5">/flex      </font><font size="4">LOL!</font></font></p><p><font color="#99ff99"><font size="4">*** PUT ADAMANTINE ARROWS AT THE MERCHANTS IN KoS FOR THE LOVE OF TUNARE !!!!!!!</font><font size="3">Outta make that my new signature......</font></font></p>

[USAFJeeper]

<div>I have a level 42 Woodworker alt and I can tell you that making arrows is quite simply a pain in the rear end.  I had made him a woodworker so I could make my own arrows.  Lets just say that I buy my arrows from a vendor and use my salvage arrows button whenever able to. </div>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>USAFJeeper wrote:<div>I have a level 42 Woodworker alt and I can tell you that making arrows is quite simply a pain in the rear end.  I had made him a woodworker so I could make my own arrows.  Lets just say that I buy my arrows from a vendor and use my salvage arrows button whenever able to. </div><hr></blockquote>Ditto.  Like I said above arrow making sucks like a orek vacumm

[Incedio]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><blockquote><p><font color="#99ff99"></font></p><hr><p><font color="#99ff99">I dont know if I'd say <em>uber </em>, but......  <font size="5">/flex      </font><font size="4">LOL!</font></font></p></blockquote><p><font color="#99ff99"><font size="4">*** PUT ADAMANTINE ARROWS AT THE MERCHANTS IN KoS FOR THE LOVE OF TUNARE !!!!!!!</font><font size="3">Outta make that my new signature......</font></font></p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know how you can afford to buy current Tier arrows in the 1st place. I burned through 2 quivers of arrows the other night XPing for 6 hours in Sanctum. That's 3600 arrows with my Backup Quiver at Adept III I can summon 45 arrows every 10 minutes.(This was before I made 62 and scribed M1 Reclaimed)</p><p> In 6 hours I can summon 1620 of my 3600 arrows burned. If I were to go over to DoF and buy T6 arrows for 3.5gp per stack that night of XPing would have cost me 70gp in arrows roughly. Now, that's not a bank breaking amount of gold to say the least but it does add up over time. I know that I can't afford to shoot 70gp out of my bow every 6 hours, I just can't do it. :smileymad: And those are only T6 arrows I would hate to see how much that number is going to jump up for T7. Then add poisons on top of that, and that makes it pretty expensive just to to keep my DPS up for XPing.</p><p>Message Edited by Incedious on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:07 PM</span></p>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>ADW123 wrote:<p>Possibly increase the stack size to 500 or 1000. What would need to be done to make them worthwhile to sell for you? or even to just make for yourself?</p><p>As far my estimates for 50sp a stack for common and 5gp a stack for rare, these were at cost. Obviously you would have some markup on the broker, possibly selling at 1gp/8-10gp a stack or whatnot. I think we can agree that something needs to be done w/ those combines since they are such a waste of time and impossible to sell as it is.</p><p>Sacrifice63 RangerUnrest</p><hr></blockquote>As it stand right now If I make an arrow head it produces 3 heads per combine (I think this is the number not sure).  However you only make one fletch per cmbine and only one shaft per combine.  If they would up those combines to make 3 each (better yet 5) that would help.  Also make the pristine final combine produce at least 50 arrows and allow us to stack 2-300, or more, per VAULT space.  These would help making the arrows cheaper because of volume produced has increased.   Also, make the Final arrow combine take about 25-50% less time to complete for SoW (Save our Wrists). <p>Message Edited by Bithnar on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><p><font color="#99ff99">Aye, as it stands I burn thru anywhere from 30 to 40 stacks of arrows in a serious grind session. Right now, i am still just using tin arrows for XPing. If I auto attack, I do it melee, not with my bow. The only time i use higher level is on a named, or the occasional t6 raid we toss in to break from the grind.My point about the Adamantine is that they arent even available for purchase to begin with. But yes, I have dumped over a plat on indium arrows on several occasions in the past, especially right before a raid.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">My greatest hope is for one of two things....something like "endless quiver" or any of the above mentioned ideas for having lots of arrows, even if it means selling my soul to a crafter to get one   -OR-   selling whole stacks of level appropriate arrows thru zone merchants for around the price of what any archer could make in loot in the time it takes to use that many arrows.Oh say....1gp or 2gp a stack for T7. And even that would be pretty high compared to what i can gain fighting in that much time.</font></p>

[Vlath]

<div>It would be nice to be able to "retrieve" our arrows from mobs that we kill. Perhaps 2/3 of those  used to account for broken arrows and such.</div><div> </div><div>I mean, dont archers often retrieve their arrows from their prey?</div><div> </div><div>Schade, NaGaFeN</div>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><font color="#99ff99">I think that was the initial intent with "Rip". A good idea might be to maybe have a castable spell that allowed you to maybe pullx# of arrows from your foes corpse....Or maybe change the  new skill "Bounty" or what ever it is to give us arrows instead of a few silver. That might actually make that spell useful.</font>

[Bayler_x]

Recoverable arrows is a nice idea, but you're asking the devs to implement some complicated extra tracking of info for a very specific case.  That's part of why they gave up on making Rip keep track of whether you were eligiable to use it, I'm sure.In order to make it work, they'd need to keep track of how many arrows of each type were shot into each mob by each player.  (We wouldn't want rangers exploiting this as a means of trading summoned arrows.  Nor would we want ninja-arrow-looters.)  Think of how much dev time would be spent on bugs related to this.  Think about the complaints they'd have to deal with when they wanted to have, say, a mob despawn and spawn as something else in the middle of the fight.  Think about the complaints if a corpse - which was otherwise unimportant - was unreachable.  Think about the complications from unlocked encounters.All those complications arise from an attempt to make what is fundementally a tedious game mechanic somewhat less tedious.  I mean, do any of you actually *like* having limited ammunition?  (Carrying around 4000 arrows certainly doesn't stand up to the "realism" argument.)  The game has a tangle of hacks to try to make limited arrows into a playable game system, but there's no reason it should be.  Give us durable arrow bundles, instead.<div></div>

[Kala Asuras]

I started a post about this topic in the woodworkers forums <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a4&message.id=3660">here</a> shortly after Beghn announced his intentions.  The main point was to make the crafting community aware of the disparity in arrow use of rangers compaired to all other classes.  The main problem is that the vast majority of our arrows are used in our CAs and don't even get a benifit of arrow type (other than changing the dmg type).  I'm all for a change that will increase the damage and desirability of crafted arrows but what I said was that there must be come comunication between Beghn and a developer incharge of Ranger mechanics to be sure that we are not going to be forced to pay 20X the amount for the added benifit.Raise some suggestions if you have them or offer support in that thread but remember we are guests in the woodworkers forums.  We want to keep it a constructive thread that will catch the attention of the people in charge.<div></div>

[Teksun]

Another 'quick fix' would be make CA's not 'use' arrows. They should ONLY be expended on autofire <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:Another 'quick fix' would be make CA's not 'use' arrows. They should ONLY be expended on autofire <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'd like to see that change aswell... make it so you have to have arrows equiped to use your CA's, but they dont consume arrows.</span></div>

[The_Wind]

So i checked my CA's tonight, and they all say, "ranged damage" instead of "melee damage."  Seems arrow tier/type may actually affect the damage output with CA's now.  I noticed it with Snipers shot doing at least 1k less damage when using a feyiron summoned arrow over an indium summoned arrow.  Anyone else confirm this?<div></div>

[Rhyls]

<font color="#ff3300">"Actually, there is a way around the Tradeskill problem, AND solve our DPS as well. Let crafters make PROCing arrows. they could have different procs and do more damage per tier (give MoBs a save but it will ALWAYS proc). Very few pwople would use these outside of special encounters because it would be cost prohibitive..."</font>Can we stop trying to tie procs into our dps? Thats what got us here in the first place.Nobody. Else. Pays. For. DPS.No more stupid expensive arrows, no more stupid expensive poisons please.Stop the madness. <div></div>

[Jiinx]

From my perspective, the problem with arrows is the quantity used by us Ranger's bow CAs over a short interval.  It completely skews arrow consumption because of the multiple arrow CAs and the shorter duration of the CAs compared to a bow's speed.  (Sound familiar? - the same thing skewed the procs.)I think there is a lot of merit in the idea that the bow CAs stop consuming arrows in our inventory.  First, it is in-line with the philosophy that the weapon quality and type does not affect CA damage.  (You can do piercing damage with a CA even though you're dual-wielding slashers, and your weapon damage rating has nothing to do with the CA damage in melee.)  If the arrow quality does not matter for bow CAs, there is no impact to the damage calculation if the inventory arrows are ignored and unused.  Second, it allows us to use high-end arrows for our auto-attacks where the arrow quality makes a significant difference.  And while the auto-attacks alone will use a large quantity of arrows for Rangers that always attack from a distance, it is much more reasonable to fund this use.In fact, my toon is both a Ranger and a Woodworker.  I make Cobalt arrows for the fighter in my guild.  I have personally never used a single one.  Why?  They're a pain to make, and my Ranger goes through arrows way too fast to make it worthwhile.  So I grind out arrows for my fighter guildie who uses them for extra damage on pulls, but it's not worth my time or coin to make them for myself.  To maintain the use of high-end arrows as "special" for other classes, there's no way to make them cheap and easy enough for my Ranger who goes through over a thousand in a play session due to the CA consumption.  There's not going to be any kind of balance in arrow quality use if most classes go through less than 50 in a play session, and my Ranger goes through over 1000.  If I could designate arrows to only be used on auto-attack (or perhaps simpler, if arrows were only consumed on auto-attacks), I'd definitely be carrying a few stacks of crafted around.  Without that option, I don't see myself ever using crafted or store-bought unless I need the crushing or slashing types on a raid.Kudos to the creative idea of an endless quiver which greys out like other weapons.  That solves the usage discrepency nicely, too.<div></div>

[The_Wind]

I don't think there needs to be an endless quiver.  Would be too much of a hassle.  Wanna counter the arrow consumption problem?  Here's my two suggestions:1:  First and foremost, make arrows tier relevant.  if its summoned using a t7 skill, let it be a t7 arrow.  Simple enough request I think.2:  The issue is that rangers use too many arrows.  Even at master 2, the amount summoned is only 65.  Increase the number of arrows summoned.Seems like a simple enough request.  Summoned Adamantine Arrows using reclaimed arrows are apperently showing up as level what, 50?   I'm still using my feyiron arrow, Salvage Arrows simply because i was able to make it a master2 selection.  Even using all my abilities and melee'ing some fights I consume more than I can make.<div></div>

[woobang]

<div></div><div></div><div>I know this implied in many posts or threads here and alike, RANGERS NEED FREE or otherwise attainable DPS @ t1 at any level! Again this has been asked several times, but how balanced in t1 DPS are rangers when NO... I repeat NO other class has to pay ANY amount of money to use their main CA's. The idea suggested above about "bundles of arrows) is without question how things should be.</div><div> </div><div>I'd love to see what the mage community would have to say if SoE decided to futher balance t1 DPS classes by making it manditory to buy something to use their CA's. Any mage out there ever seen all but 4 abillities sign off and deemed unusable in the middle of an instance? Even 2 of my melee attacks require that i have arrows equipped. I know..... my fault for running out, but please.</div><p>Message Edited by woobang on <span class="date_text">03-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:01 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by woobang on <span class="date_text">03-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p>

[strider19]

I also seemed to notice that many CAs take 4 or 5 arrows out of your ammo slot.  I think this is a bug, but regardless it is rather ridiculous that we must pay so much and not even be anywhere near the top dps in the game.  When tanks and even some healers out dps you, while they can take hits or heal or both and you have to pay several plat every week is nonsense. My suggestion: bring back the endless quiver ability.  Maybe make it a lvl 60 ability?  I dunno, somehow bring it back.  Poisons are also a huge cost, I'd love to see them removed from the game and have all our dps come straight from the ranger, but alas it's only a wish. It's clear by the astounding responses to these types of posts that we are being treated unfairly.  It's too expensive to play this class, and after all the nerfage it's not even worth it.  I for one stay because I love rangers, played them through EQ1, DaOc, WoW (hunter), and every other game I've ever played.  I will never leave the ranger class no matter how hard you beat us with a nerf stick, but I'm begging you for all rangers, listen to our plea<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[strider19]

I just read recoverable arrows on another post, though i did not read the entire thing I just had a thought.  What if after you kill a mob you can loot back your arrows?  This may not work due to multiple rangers in a group or what not but hey it's a thought.  I still like endless quiver far more though.<div></div>

[Bayler_x]

<blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2">I don't think there needs to be an endless quiver.  Would be too much of a hassle.  Wanna counter the arrow consumption problem?  Here's my two suggestions:1:  First and foremost, make arrows tier relevant.  if its summoned using a t7 skill, let it be a t7 arrow.  Simple enough request I think.2:  The issue is that rangers use too many arrows.  Even at master 2, the amount summoned is only 65.  Increase the number of arrows summoned.Seems like a simple enough request.  Summoned Adamantine Arrows using reclaimed arrows are apperently showing up as level what, 50?   I'm still using my feyiron arrow, Salvage Arrows simply because i was able to make it a master2 selection.  Even using all my abilities and melee'ing some fights I consume more than I can make.<hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>There are a few problems here.  The first is trying to make a CA line, which upgrades every 14 levels, create the right tier of arrows for your level, which changes every 10 levels.  They can't do it without either: a) making the spell summon the higher of the two tiers for its span; or b) summon arrows depending on your own level.  If they choose the latter, they'll either need to reduce the whole line into one spell that scales indefinitely (which would mess up a lot of existing stuff, like master2 choices, jeweler recipes, etc), or make it only summon one tier of the two that it could be, depending on the level of the spell.The notion of just adjusting the number of arrows created by the Makeshift Arrow line, though, is only a temporary fix.  As the game gets older, our arrow consumption rate will increase.  There will be more CAs, faster bows, higher haste, etc.  It's only a matter of time before a "good" amount of summoning right now becomes inadequate.  It's even worse from the woodworker's side, because the numbers have to fit in line with cost of resources, tradeskiller time, house vault space, etc.  Whatever numbers they choose today will be wrong tomorrow.  And they may even be wrong today, on a different server or for a different level.<blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2">My suggestion: bring back the endless quiver ability.  Maybe make it a lvl 60 ability?  I dunno, somehow bring it back.  Poisons are also a huge cost, I'd love to see them removed from the game and have all our dps come straight from the ranger, but alas it's only a wish.<hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>I agree we need a mechanism that gets rid of the limited supply of arrows.  But making it a separate ability, available only at a certain level, and so on, is a mistake.  That's the mistake they made in EQ1, for instance.  EQ1's endless quiver made it so that *any* arrow a ranger chose to use was endless.  But only rangers had that capability - and only after a huge investment in alternate-advancement xp.  The problem was that the devs could never introduce arrows without them being bound by the posibility of that skill being used.  At the same time, that meant that no other class could benefit from spiffy arrows, because they would be too powerful in a ranger's hands.Limited ammo causes nothing but tedious complications.  What we need is a system where no ammo is limited, for any class at any level.  The arrow bundles (or shuriken pouches, or whatever), would still be made by craftsmen, and would still come in different levels of quality.  And they'd still turn grey and need to be replaced.  But you'd never have to worry about paying per shot, or running out in the middle of a raid.<div></div>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><font color="#99ff99">I think that was the initial intent with "Rip". A good idea might be to maybe have a castable spell that allowed you to maybe pullx# of arrows from your foes corpse....Or maybe change the  new skill "Bounty" or what ever it is to give us arrows instead of a few silver. That might actually make that spell useful.</font><hr></blockquote>I think that would be a fantastic idea.  make it give us a few arrows and have a shorter recast timer or make it so we dont have to get the killing shot.

[woobang]

<div></div><div></div><p>Understand this ladies and gents....there is really no arguing this point, its not arguable! depending on your play style and given free time to play, Rangers and scouts alike must maintain a life in Eq2 just like every other class. This would include housing, armor upgrades, etc. Now, not just rangers but  dps Scouts in general have to PAY to use their abilities. At t5-7 having a few plat wont cut it we need to keep this almost at all times so that we can be sure our CA's are useable...I repeat if you dont have ammo you dont have CA's! All dps arguments aside, we want all the goodies the brokers have to offer aswell and buying t5-7 ammo isnt going to afford us to do this on a large scale.</p><p>Example:</p><p>Wizard with 6 plat =  Cool, look at this awsome new t7 cloth robe! Wow only 5plat.....sweet im buying that .... ching.</p><p>Ranger with 6 plat =  Cool, look at this awsome new t7 chain BP! Wow 5 plat ..... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if i buy this i may not have enough for ammo and poison ....close broker window.</p><p> </p><p>I have an awsome idea.... they should add a new sound to ammo ranged classes.... everytime we shoot or throw it should go CHING CHING ......just like the brokers!!</p><p>Message Edited by woobang on <span class="date_text">03-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:42 AM</span></p>

[Teksun]

I have NEVER bought in arrow. I have changed my playstyle quite a few times during group to conserve arrows though. I just don't think we should HAVE to buy them, expecially at the scale I would NEED to but them. I can make my M2 salvaged arrows last the 10 minute recast. It isn't EASy, but it IS doable...I DO buy poisons though. T7 cost at LEAST 3gp each. In a good group that means about 3gp/hour. I'm lucky to LOOT that much, even at T7. Sure I'll get a GOOD drop every now and then, and if I don't need it, or a guildy doesn't need it, I'll make a few plat on the broker, but MAN it's tough saving money in this class...<div></div>