What is a Rangers Role now

[rcknchr]

<div></div><div>Last night me (41 Ranger), 39 Paladin, 41 Templar, 39 Fury, and a 34 Assassin went into Nek Castle to go after Lord Everling. After killing the 2nd sister of 6 the Assassin says i have to leave sorry. So we all say np be safe. We fight the 3 sister and after the fight,  right back to back ( as if they were typing at the same time),  the Paladin says wow we lost our dps and the Templar said I think we are going to have trouble without any dps. Hmm 41 Ranger (tier 1 dps still) still in the group and a 34 Assassin ( tier 1 dps) but the group didnt see the Ranger as dps anymore. So to SoE whats our role. If its dps then get us back to the tier 1 damage along with Assassins and Wizards. If its not give us the utility line of buffs and make us a utility. As of right now we are nothing. On a side note one way you could make so extra money SoE is to come out with a Rangers Collector Edition of EQ2. Call it Forever Gimped. Maybe with just the Ranger class to choose from your Developers might be able to balance us.</div><p>Message Edited by rcknchr74 on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:46 PM</span></p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div>Sorry to be blunt here, but if your group doesn't see you as DPS, they are dumb.

[Jagdwol]

<div></div><p>Well with the nerf hurting rangers as bad as it is you can always offer to be.</p><p> </p><p>1> Water and Food carrier for the group.</p><p>2> Porter for all the looted goods</p><p>3> Jester</p><p>4> AOE triggerman............Just hope they rez you.</p><p>Anyone else care to add?</p><p> </p><p>/sarcasm</p><p>I support Rangers and their rightful place on the DPS scale and hope they get debugged ASAP.</p>

[illum]

<div></div><div></div>i find that my role is jester or an easy target for jokes when things are going slow...i'm also good at fetching things since i have pathfinding and a carpet :smileyvery-happy:<p>Message Edited by illumin on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:25 PM</span></p>

[Blixx0]

<div></div>I am seeing Templer parces within 5% of my ranger... and Fury's are parcering 25% higher then the ranger as it stands... I just shelved my ranger until they fix this...

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>rcknchr74 wrote:<div></div><div>Last night me (41 Ranger), 39 Paladin, 41 Templar, 39 Fury, and a 34 Assassin went into Nek Castle to go after Lord Everling. After killing the 2nd sister of 6 the Assassin says i have to leave sorry. So we all say np be safe. We fight the 3 sister and after the fight,  right back to back ( as if they were typing at the same time),  the Paladin says wow we lost our dps and the Templar said I think we are going to have trouble without any dps. Hmm 41 Ranger (tier 1 dps still) still in the group and a 34 Assassin ( tier 1 dps) but the group didnt see the Ranger as dps anymore. So to SoE whats our role. If its dps then get us back to the tier 1 damage along with Assassins and Wizards. If its not give us the utility line of buffs and make us a utility. As of right now we are nothing. On a side note one way you could make so extra money SoE is to come out with a Rangers Collector Edition of EQ2. Call it Forever Gimped. Maybe with just the Ranger class to choose from your Developers might be able to balance us.</div><p>Message Edited by rcknchr74 on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:46 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>No offense but if you get outdps by an assassin 7 levels below you... I dont think you can blame SOE on this one...</span><div></div>

[strider19]

<hr width="100%" size="2"><span>No offense but if you get outdps by an assassin 7 levels below you... I dont think you can blame SOE on this one...</span><hr width="100%" size="2">Yes he can,  it's not that he was just outdpsed by an assasin 7 lvls lower than him, it's that YOU are being outdpsed as well.  By that assasin, by healers, by tanks, it's a problem with ranger DPS and it needs to be fixed.  Time after time multiple rangers have posted DPS calculators (screen shots of in game) and they fall below most tanks and every other mage/scout class, with healers shortly below (furys often higher).  It can't be that every ranger suddenly doesn't have good gear and doesn't know how to play, it's that there is a problem with our DPS. Don't hate on OP, he is very right.<span></span><div></div>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>strider1987 wrote:<hr width="100%" size="2"><span>No offense but if you get outdps by an assassin 7 levels below you... I dont think you can blame SOE on this one...</span><hr width="100%" size="2">Yes he can,  it's not that he was just outdpsed by an assasin 7 lvls lower than him, it's that YOU are being outdpsed as well.  By that assasin, by healers, by tanks, it's a problem with ranger DPS and it needs to be fixed.  Time after time multiple rangers have posted DPS calculators (screen shots of in game) and they fall below most tanks and every other mage/scout class, with healers shortly below (furys often higher).  It can't be that every ranger suddenly doesn't have good gear and doesn't know how to play, it's that there is a problem with our DPS. Don't hate on OP, he is very right.<span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well im sorry again, and trust me I am, but if you get outdps by <insert class here> 7 lvl lower than you, whatever SOE do, they cant help you</span><div></div>

[illum]

<div>I can see this being possible...if the assassin lands all his major CA's and the ranger CA arrows are all parried (I just saw this last night...3 CA's, 5 out of 7 arrows parried), an assassin can easily out dps a ranger...conditions have to be right, but it's possible.</div><div> </div><div>about 3 nights ago, i was watching a friend play (60 ranger) with a group that had a 63 mage (not specifying cause i dont want to nerf anyone else...unlike all other classes hating us...where's the love?).  the dps for the fight i was watching was ~18,000 for the mage, and ~280 for my friend...just about all his arrows were being parried.</div><div> </div><div>simple math...arrows dont hit, no dps.</div>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>strider1987 wrote:Yes he can,  it's not that he was just outdpsed by an assasin 7 lvls lower than him, i<font color="#ffff33">t's that YOU are being outdpsed as well</font>.  By that assasin, by healers, by tanks, it's a problem with ranger DPS and it needs to be fixed.  Time after time multiple rangers have posted DPS calculators (screen shots of in game) and they fall below most tanks and every other mage/scout class, with healers shortly below (furys often higher).  It can't be that every ranger suddenly doesn't have good gear and doesn't know how to play, it's that there is a problem with our DPS. Don't hate on OP, he is very right.<span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Listen, while I sympathize with that situation and <em>I</em> <em>know we have serious DPS problems</em>, stop acting like the worst possible situation you've experienced is what everyone is experiencing. There is no "very right" here, back off of that. You can't know what my experience is like, or what anyone else's is, so stop applying that situation to every other ranger in the game.</p><p>No one's arguing that the situation currently sucks, but acting powerless isn't going to change anything. I'm sorry, but you are not incapable of doing more damage than a healer. Read Khalan's post about tactics, and any of the other discussions about changing how we play to make the best of what we currently have. You cannot keep doing what you've been doing for that last six months and expect to stay on top of the DPS chain. <em>You have to change how you play.</em> If you don't want to do so, that's your decision, but don't tell the rest of us that it's impossible to do more damage than a healer since LU20. We know from experience that it's just not true.</p>

[Zaviur]

<div></div><blockquote><hr> but don't tell the rest of us that it's impossible to do more damage than a healer since LU20. We know from experience that it's just not true.<hr></blockquote>As it is not impossible to do more damage than a healer in one parse.  It is not probable that you will out parse them every fight.  I'm of course talking about group encounters (more than one mob.)

[Jay]

<div></div><p>I know that many classes can now periodically outdamage us, thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>If your point is that our damage output is not currently where it belongs, I agree - and said as much in the post you responded to.</p>

[rcknchr]

<div></div>I never said that i was out dpsed by the Assassin. Im saying our kill speed did decrease when he left though. We got hit by multiple nerfs. They should have done one at a time. Our CA's (bow) cast time went up. We use more power now. They took away alot of procs. They should have made 1 change at a time to see what effect that had on us not all 3 at once. No wonder they cant get anything fixed right in the game if they try fixing the game like they nerfed us.

[Jayad]

<div></div><div>The Ranger's role now is to pull the insta-death raid mob from far away and take one for the team.  Can't do anything else well.</div><div> </div>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Jay why dont u test beta? Would they ignore your wisdom there too? If so, i understand not wanting to pay to be ignored... but you always seem to be the most level headed, and intent on keeping the goal in focus of the posters i read...(pretty much oppo of my easily angered booty) Do you have any direct feedback with devs or anything?</p><p>(honestly not bein sarcastic yo)</p><p>Stylee Mc'Cutta</p>

[Briz]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>rcknchr74 wrote:<div></div>I never said that i was out dpsed by the Assassin. Im saying our kill speed did decrease when he left though. We got hit by multiple nerfs. They should have done one at a time. Our CA's (bow) cast time went up. We use more power now. They took away alot of procs. They should have made 1 change at a time to see what effect that had on us not all 3 at once. No wonder they cant get anything fixed right in the game if they try fixing the game like they nerfed us.<hr></blockquote>Let me get this straight...A DPS class left your group - and the result was that your group didn't kill mobs as fast?Thankfully, you have other rangers making good arguments against the nerf - because this one is <i>terrible</i>.</span></div>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><p>I don't want to bash the OP but if you had 1 x tank, 2 x healers and 2 x DPs and one pure DPS'er leaves, your groups ability to put out damage is going to be cut significantly. If everyone was doing equal DPS (rarely the case) you would have lost 20% of the group damage output. Assuming the classes were putting out damage relative to their respective damage tiers the figure is likely to be higher than 20%. </p><p>One could argue that pre #20 a single Ranger would have been able to output sufficient damage to make enough of  difference but that was a badly designed mechanic (not bug) that has been corrected.</p><p>People who are your friends and those that understand the situation will still take us as DPS - albeit they understand our output has dropped significantly. We now have to work harder than before to achieve acceptable damage. Hopefully some tweaks will put us on par with other T1 classes in terms or raw output and consistancy.</p><p>Mirdo. </p><p> </p>

[Teksun]

One of the main things we can do that I don't think anyone else can do, is pull through walls. This has become one of my main jobs on our daily trips to 'the nest'. Some of the hardest mobs in there are at the top of the wall where the lift is. Those wandering guards can be pulled one at a time. Heck. you can even pull the adds from the boss up there without agroing the boss...<div></div>

[Cael]

<div></div><p>I am the comic relief....just being there makes people laugh, and happy, I lighten the mood, they can all say, at least Im not a ranger, and that makes them feel better about their class, which is nice.</p><p>Adds to my AWESOME utility. I mean without pathfinding and tracking WHERE WOULD WE ALL BE OMG OMG IM SO AWESOME with it.</p><p>Seriously, I go, but only when there is room for me. Now that the wiz I group with normally does over double my damage, and the SK that I go with does about 150% of my damage. Im only there for the company</p>

[Jagdwol]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:One of the main things we can do that I don't think anyone else can do, is pull through walls. This has become one of my main jobs on our daily trips to 'the nest'. Some of the hardest mobs in there are at the top of the wall where the lift is. Those wandering guards can be pulled one at a time. Heck. you can even pull the adds from the boss up there without agroing the boss...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah that's it exploit those mobs that are using speed hacks to deflect arrows!

[TaleraRis]

<div>Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm still DPS. Someone says in level channel "looking for DPS". I say "ranja?" They say "Sure!" And they expect me to help burn that mob down when I join that group. So yeah, I'd say I'm still DPS.</div>

[Morgonn]

<div></div>In spite of the fact that I too, like others in this thread, question the validity of what he offered as a "proof", the OP's original question does deserve some thought.  I for one would very much like to know...what IS our role now?  I don't mean the 'water carrier/insta-death taking/food and towel fetcher' thing either.We had a clearly defined set of functions a couple of weeks ago.  Main: 1) DPS - first and foremost we killed, quickly and efficiently.(whether too much so is no longer a valid point of argument as that no longer exists). 2) Crowd Control - We had a couple of abilities there that when tied to our DPS could reliably yank a mob off a healer/caster/etc in fairly quick order. 3) Puller - We still have the ability to pull for a group although we are arguably NOT the best choice for that function now.Secondary: 4) Tracking - bah...eq2maps has almost entirely eliminated the need for that function although it may find the occasional short term usefulness.  5) Pathfinding - our much-vaunted group speed buff has absolutely NO use whatever in a group combat situation since it is negated BY combat.  6) Evac - one thing we still can do to assist our group...unfortunately not until the situation is near total hopelessness.  Far more useful as a traveling tool to cross certain zone areas.So I would like some input here since the thread has already been started with a very valid question.   What is our role? Or, failing that we have a defined role, what can we do to augment our group, other than get behind a mob and turn on auto-attack in melee range?<div></div>

[Zaym]

<div></div><p>This issue always seems to rear its ugly head when we get new blood into the game and everyone expects the EQLive Classes to match teh EQ2 classes.  Also, there is the misunderstanding of what Tier 1 DPS is and how it works.  I play one class from each archtype and played EQLive from day one release and have played EQ2 from day one release.  This is what I see and have experienced personally.</p><p>**Disclaimer:  Without hard data from SOE, this is all personal experience and opinion, so take it with a gain of salt**</p><p>Each Archtype has a Tier 1 DPS.  Here is the break down as I have seen it.</p><ul><li>Figfhter (This is a toss up between the Berserker and the Monk/Bruiser)</li><li>Mage (Wizard/Warlock)</li><li>Scout (Ranger/Assassin)</li><li>Healer (Fury.  I have not seen any other healer with the same DPS as the Fury)</li></ul><p>Now, we also have Tier 1 DPS based on Burst (Quick), Long term (Long Battles) and then we have Team (Pet Classes, including Charmed Pets)</p><ul><li>Burst (Ranger/Assassin & Wizard)</li><li>Long Term (Berserkers, Warlocks)</li><li>Team (Conjurer/Necromancer)</li></ul><p>So, based on this breakdown you will clearly see that it all is based on the situation.  No one class is the ultimate, end all be all, top Tier DPS class for every situation.  So if you think, "I am a Ranger, I am the top Tier DPS." you had better understand that this is only in certain situations.  While you definately, out damage a paladin, a illusionist and so on, you may be out damaged by some others, based on the situation.</p><p>I hope the OP and others do not take this as a flame, as it was not intended to be one.  I am just trying to help some understand that no single class is the God of DPS as some seem to think.</p><p>My $0.02</p>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Steezity wrote:<div></div><p>Jay why dont u test beta? Would they ignore your wisdom there too? If so, i understand not wanting to pay to be ignored... but you always seem to be the most level headed, and intent on keeping the goal in focus of the posters i read...(pretty much oppo of my easily angered booty) Do you have any direct feedback with devs or anything?</p><p>(honestly not bein sarcastic yo)</p><p>Stylee Mc'Cutta</p><hr></blockquote><p>Hey, thanks for the kind words bro. My "wisdom" isn't really wisdom, it's common sense regurgitated on a daily basis. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I've said before - I'm no smarter than anyone here, I'm no more experienced than most of you, I don't have any special understanding of the class; I'm pretty ignorant of a lot of areas and I'm not nearly as analytical as some of our other, sharper people. I really just talk a lot. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But to answer your questions: I really don't know why I haven't tested beta... I'm just lazy, I guess. I don't really know that it does a lot of good to be a beta tester other than seeing things before they go live and maybe passing that information on. I've never been a beta tester, so I don't know from fristhand experience, but I haven't gotten the feeling that the Devs really listen or make use of the feedback from testers. Maybe it's b/c the majority of the testers aren't there to provide feedback, but just to preview changes. /shrug</p><p>And no, I have no direct feedback with any Devs. I've PM'd a few red-names with links to some threads that I thought they might find useful and/or informative, but I've never gotten a response or been in any direct conversations with the powers-that-be.</p>