Anyone else having problems believing this

[Dark_Moons_Rising]

<div>After the combat changes last year, by the time people got experienced playing them at 60, Rangers ended up doing more dps than we had planned. Due largely to poisons, they rose into the #1 dps position by a measurable but not huge margin, a bit outside of what we expected anyone to hit in normal EQ2 combat.</div><div><font color="#cc0000">I think the figure was 55% of our damage was due to poisons</font>They were a lot more powerful than we had expected, but not game-breakingly so. We knew we'd have to address it, but we assumed that it would be sane to do so in the existing mechanics with some scaling in the way the next tier of upgrades worked.As we moved gear/arts/achievements/poisons/etc to beta for KoS (60-70), Rangers shot off all of the DPS charts beyond anything we could correct in data as we'd hoped.<u><strong>The highest logged fights (vs blue through orange) were just over 4,000 dps, with a single Ranger now providing a sustainable 8-10x more damage than the #2 slot and about 50x the lowest slot. That's when we realized there was obviously a bigger systemic problem than we had thought. A game can't be made to scale at that rate for one alpha class. With that kind of damage differential, there would literally need to be "Ranger content" and "everyone else content."</strong></u><font color="#cc0000">Ok, you expect us to believe that on a test server,, a grp in full fabled,All master 1 and adept3 spells, tier 2 were only doing between 400-500 dps,, and someone was doing only 80dps?? I find that one hard to swallow. </font>That led us to look into what exactly happened, and we traced it back to two bugs whose multiplying effect wasn't readily apparent before KoS.1) A bug with normalized procrates. Just like in EQ, EQ2's proc rates are slightly normalized to the speed of the weapon. Use a slower weapon, get more frequent procs. Use a faster weapon, get less frequent procs, making the proc rate a little less sensitive to weapon speed. Bows are slow weapons - This is important.The main bug was that proc rates from combat arts were assuming that you were using your abilities at the slower speed of your ranged weapon, not the fast speed of your combat art, causing fast combat arts to proc at the normalized/increased rate. The fix is to make them normalize to the rate of the combat art. Drop a high end frontloaded DD poison on your arrows, you're multiplying damage.</div><div><font color="#cc0000">DUH, You took away our kiting,, so we could not use CA's on the move.</font>2) Compounding that bug, a secondary bug was causing abilities that fired two or three attacks to have a chance to proc two or three times, again, at that same accelerated procrate.</div><div><font color="#cc0000">Can you say  2 or 3 arrows ??</font>After these changes, Rangers are still top tier damage.</div><div><font color="#cc0000">Compared to whom ??</font></div><div>They're just not the highest damage in the game, and they're likely not soloing yellow con group encounters.That's not to say they're perfect as is - we're monitoring dps from live servers daily.</div><div><font color="#cc0000">Were giving hard numbers,, you reading at all ??</font></div><div> Rangers will be remaining top tier. If it looks like they dip out of it at all, we'll correct it, but we have to do so in a system that doesn't have these unintentional dps multipliers occurring.Sometimes in the name of not nerfing something that people have grown accustomed to, it's safe to treat the symptoms just in data, like we had hoped to do. In this particular case, I'm afraid it couldn't work out that way.Hope that makes sense,- Scott</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0000">Not to mention,, this was posted on a guilds website,, not on the rangers forum,, we have never had an explanation of why we got hit so hard..</font></div>

[Steezi]

<div></div>yah its all pretty bad.

[Tasye]

It just shows in vivid truth that SOE doesn't give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about their own community.<div></div>

[BedlamX]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Tasye wrote:It just shows in vivid truth that SOE doesn't give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about their own community.<div></div><hr></blockquote>True.  SOE doesnt post that often especially here and frankly I could care less if they do. I want them working on the problem not greasing us up on some PR post claiming they are looking into to it. The longer they wait the more people will leave and this willl become SWG all over again and they will have a dead product on their hands. Soe is just shooting themselves in the foot by alienating their customer base. You would like to think that with all of their past mistakes with other games they would know how to handle this type of thing but I guess I give them too much credit. 1 day left for me I have but 1 last hope for an update today to get me to hang around. If not so be it farewell..My guildies got all my stuff so dont ask.BedlamX</span></div>

[Guy De Alsace]

That 4,000 dps figure is now part of the EQ2 folklore. Its a fantasy game and that figure proves it really <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>I could get 4000 dps using sniper shot on a 5th level rat in Down Below. OMG nerf us >.<<div></div>

[Saihung23]

<div></div><p>Unless they have some "vision" that we have not been told about...they have screwed this game for me.  I dont give two whits what other classes say....</p><p>I cant solo for crap...sure this is an MMO, but there are things set up for solo that I cant do anymore.  I feel like I should quit my guild Solo Artists....I cant solo anymore.  I dont get the invites I used to for groups.</p><p> </p><p>When a wizard tells you youre fine, and a Templar/coercer welcomes you to his world...you know you are in trouble.</p><p> </p><p>Sai</p>

[roblinb]

<div></div><div>It doesn't surprise me.  I'm only playing the game for a few more months so I'll probably just have to accept I'm going to do less damage from here on out.</div>

[Trollb]

<div>moan moan moan.</div><div> </div><div>The poison nerf as described is affects more than rangers, but apparrently rangers benefitted the most from poisons before.</div><div> </div><div>The ranger class has its strengths as a ganker class in pvp, hands down- able to exploit their ranged capacity... root/snare and basically kite. Run from them, and they fill your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] full of arrows... chase them and they kite you.</div><div> </div><div>That is the class you chose, and from the descriptions of those who actually put the effort into finding out what they can now solo, it seems that rangers are about where everyone else is.</div><div> </div><div>Just the pvp performance of rangers who have default gear shows 90% of the ranger moaning is an act in futility. Its like Bill Gates complaining about the price of gasoline.</div>

[Mirdo]

<div>The one thing I find truly disappointing about that post was that it was not posted on the Ranger forums. To post on a guild website before the forums dedicated to your own game seems totally wrong to me.</div><div> </div><div>As to the content of the post, well I wasn't on test but maybe a  Ranger making full use of proc gear + a full set of AA could achiever those numbers - I have no data to dispute that. I can only the think the 50x damage numbers were just throw away comments to illustrate a point. If they are real, they maybe need to get some people testing that can play their classes (unless ofc that number was from a healer who did nothing whatsoever but heal).</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div>

[pharacyde]

<div>What Scott said is completey true and I will support that from SoE.</div><div> </div><div>Pffft I did some raiding since LU20 with my guild just for the fun of it. Courts once and we did some epic x2 in Sanctum of Scale. I assure you we are still T1 dps. We do not win every parse like it used to be, but I am number one on 60% of them. I parse around 700-900dps in raids when I am in the right group setup.</div><div> </div><div>We had two conjurors two necromancers and a wizard. The wizard was in heaven cause he was only 100-200dps behind me. The conjurors were like a few dps behind me on most fights, sometiems they would beat me. The only thing I can say is if you want to parse, your lazy days of staying doing bow shots in the back of the zone are over. You will have to joust as all other scouts.</div><div> </div><div>But remember, rangers still have advantages. Compared to mages (except maybe pet classes) we have a mana free source of dps, which is our auto-attack. And compared to other scouts we have alot of ranged combat arts that allow us to keep doing dps even when we need to back out of an AE.</div><div> </div><div>Complain whatever you want, if you think you are nerfed so badly then stop playing, I know we can still do the job and I will do it.</div><div> </div><div>PS : The first day was a big frustration to me too, get over it, play your class and discover it's not that bad.</div><div> </div><div>PPS : critical attacks probably used the same proc balancing as other procs ... so i would easily belive that we would be doing critical shots every bow art if they didn't change the proc balancing. But that's just a thought. So doing 4k dps when you know rangers can do 1.5k sustained pre lu13 isn't that of an absurd statement. (especially if you choose your AA's to increase the crit chance to the max)</div><div> </div><div>Cheers</div>

[dubbs]

<div></div>If this came from some guild's website, how can we even be sure it was posted by Scott in the first place?

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<div>moan moan moan.</div><div> </div><div>The poison nerf as described is affects more than rangers, but apparrently rangers benefitted the most from poisons before.</div><div> </div><div>The ranger class has its strengths as a ganker class in pvp, hands down- able to exploit their ranged capacity... root/snare and basically kite. Run from them, and they fill your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] full of arrows... chase them and they kite you.</div><div> </div><div>That is the class you chose, and from the descriptions of those who actually put the effort into finding out what they can now solo, it seems that rangers are about where everyone else is.</div><div> </div><div>Just the pvp performance of rangers who have default gear shows 90% of the ranger moaning is an act in futility. Its like Bill Gates complaining about the price of gasoline.</div><hr></blockquote>You're right there is only one solution BAN PVP and ANYONE WHO DUELS. THEN FIX THE RANGERS.I HATE what PVP has done for PVE. We're GIMPED in PVE. Just so that we're balance in PVP? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] THAT.

[Teksun]

I geouped with an assassin last night for the first time EVER...When ALL my CA's were available, she out DPS'd me by 100... Those were the GOOD fights.<div></div>

[Jagdwol]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<div>moan moan moan.</div><div> </div><div>The poison nerf as described is affects more than rangers, but apparrently rangers benefitted the most from poisons before.</div><div> </div><div>The ranger class has its strengths as a ganker class in pvp, hands down- able to exploit their ranged capacity... root/snare and basically kite. Run from them, and they fill your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] full of arrows... chase them and they kite you.</div><div> </div><div>That is the class you chose, and from the descriptions of those who actually put the effort into finding out what they can now solo, it seems that rangers are about where everyone else is.</div><div> </div><div>Just the pvp performance of rangers who have default gear shows 90% of the ranger moaning is an act in futility. Its like Bill Gates complaining about the price of gasoline.</div><hr></blockquote>I guess you post just blows the myth that PVP will not affect the PVE players. Thanks for the proof.

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jagdwolfe wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<div>moan moan moan.</div><div> </div><div>The poison nerf as described is affects more than rangers, but apparrently rangers benefitted the most from poisons before.</div><div> </div><div>The ranger class has its strengths as a ganker class in pvp, hands down- <font color="#ffff00">able to exploit their ranged capacity</font>... root/snare and basically kite. Run from them, and they fill your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] full of arrows... chase them and they kite you.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">[Removed for Content], you mean they know how to play a Ranger?Go back to your teenage heaven PvP server. Methinks you were too obnoxious to have a happy home in a guild and flew at the chance to take your prepubescent agnst out on a PvP server. Stay there. And play a Coercer. Or maybe a Templar.</font></blockquote>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><div></div><p>Pharcyde,</p><p>I'm seeing reports from raiding Rangers (including yourself) that with the right group setup/proper debuffs we are doing decent damage. How about the group situation from your point of view? I seem to remember your own assessment that the group situation was far from perfect for us. Also, just for comparison, what's your gear like?</p><p>I'm guessing that if your damage output in melee is getting you into the 600-800 DPS range you must be using T6 fabled weps?</p><p>900 DPS over the course of a raid a great total. Is it all directly attributable to you or has some of that come from procs placed on you by other toons?</p><p>Finally, how are you finding stream against a mob that's not raid debuffed? Is it less than useful for you now? That seems to be a problem many Rangers are facing right now.</p><p>Mirdo.</p><p>Message Edited by Mirdo on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:27 PM</span></p>

[Spite]

<div></div>I have personnally seen over 3.5k DPS from a warlock in PPR against the hugh armies they put in there and 2.5k from a Summoner. this whole 4k thing needs some context added.

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Actually, have u seen an illusionist's parses in pprt?</p><p>far higher than many would think possible....</p>

[Dirtgirl]

<blockquote><hr>Steezity wrote:<div></div><p>Actually, have u seen an illusionist's parses in pprt?</p><p>far higher than many would think possible....</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#99ff99">Yes, yes I have and you are right. But I don't want any of them to be "fixed" ie neutered. I want us to be where we should be.</font>

[Crychtonn]

<blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<blockquote><hr>Steezity wrote:<div></div><p>Actually, have u seen an illusionist's parses in pprt?</p><p>far higher than many would think possible....</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#99ff99">Yes, yes I have and you are right. But I don't want any of them to be "fixed" ie neutered. I want us to be where we should be.</font><hr></blockquote><p>To late they already have been.  The change on skills with multiple attacks was aimed at the illusionist / brawler combo alot more then it was aimed at rangers.  Brawlers no longer proc those illusionist buffs 8, 16, 20 odd times like they used to.  The days of illusionist pulling off big DPS numbers in PPR or other places with large group mobs died with LU20 also.</p><p> </p>

[BSbon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dark_Moons_Rising wrote:<div><u><strong>The highest logged fights (vs blue through orange) were just over 4,000 dps, with a single Ranger now providing a sustainable 8-10x more damage than the #2 slot and about 50x the lowest slot. That's when we realized there was obviously a bigger systemic problem than we had thought. A game can't be made to scale at that rate for one alpha class. With that kind of damage differential, there would literally need to be "Ranger content" and "everyone else content."</strong></u><font color="#cc0000">Ok, you expect us to believe that on a test server,, a grp in full fabled,All master 1 and adept3 spells, tier 2 were only doing between 400-500 dps,, and someone was doing only 80dps?? I find that one hard to swallow. </font><hr></div></blockquote><p>Templar</p><p>bongo</p>

[MaghodienStarund]

<div></div>What i love is seeing the wizzies now pumping out 2kdps and getting a 10k aoe spell... fun times for them yet we were nerfed

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<blockquote><hr>Steezity wrote:<div></div><p>Actually, have u seen an illusionist's parses in pprt?</p><p>far higher than many would think possible....</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#99ff99">Yes, yes I have and you are right. But I don't want any of them to be "fixed" ie neutered. I want us to be where we should be.</font><hr></blockquote><p>To late they already have been.  The change on skills with multiple attacks was aimed at the illusionist / brawler combo alot more then it was aimed at rangers.  Brawlers no longer proc those illusionist buffs 8, 16, 20 odd times like they used to.  The days of illusionist pulling off big DPS numbers in PPR or other places with large group mobs died with LU20 also.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><font color="#99ff99">I know, I play with one regularly. Was just commenting on the quote I quoted...LOL  that sounds funny. But I can say that after out last little 2 group trip thru SotL for the AAs for killing named, the chanter was still doin just fine. More often than not on top.</font>

[Jayad]

<div></div><div>Can you post the breakdown on your parse where your raid-buffed ranger is out-dpsing mages?  Sounds like the parser is counting procs from other classes onto your own dps, which is incorrect.  I'm trying to figure out if max-haste would bring the Auto-attack damage up high enough with cobalt arrows but it doesn't seem like this would be sufficient.  </div><div> </div><div>Does it include snipe?</div>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Hey, about illus comments... Aye i def didnt mean i wanted them to get nerfed, and i apologize for not thinkin of a better way to say that. That and sc were pretty much only areas that illus had money dmg in anyway....and they have had too much of the bat already. Just the comment about warlock dps in there kinda triggered a funny memory....</p><p>Srry to hear that lu20 "fixed" them again too. Was that at least mentioned? or ninja'd...</p><p>Stylee Mc'Cutta 62 ranga Nek</p>

[Dark_Moons_Rising]

<div></div><p>:smileysad:</p><p>If you read the other class boards, you will notice a lot of ninja nerf also went into effect for them as well, NOT to mention the broken spells that were once fixed,,</p>