Are the Changes to the Ranger Final?

[NorrinRadd]

<div></div><div>After reading thru quite a few of the posts as well as playing a Ranger, i have 1 question...., (Devs and anyone that can answer please feel free to do so), is this the way the Ranger will function in~game permanently or will there be measures taken to analyze & correct the LU20 changes? Basically are the changes "THE SET IN STONE" and Final revamping of the class or a work in progress that will be evaluated and adjusted?</div>

[Tasye]

It's final. SOE doesn't undo nerfs.<div></div>

[Racmo]

<div>Sadly, that's true.  The only way your DPS is going to increase in proportion is when they get around to nerfing the other classes.  Check back in a year, we'll be top DPS again with no buffs during that time period.  About that time we'll be due for another nerf.</div><div> </div><div>Tobi</div><div>45 Ranger</div>

[klepp]

<div></div><p>it better not be, id think theyre smarter than that. They'll lsoe alot of rangers.  Im geared [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well.. probably atleast in the top 10 on the server in regardsd to gear and masters.  And im having a hard time out dps'ing the guild swashbuckler....</p><p>if thats how its supposed to be... well... heh... you get the idea</p>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><div></div><p>Please disregard posters saying it's definite.</p><p>Moorguard has already posted on these forums to say the current situation is being looked into. Right now that's the best we can hope for. If the Dev's decide we have been over-nerfed then we will be re-balanced. Most Rangers are of the opinion we are over-nerfed but popular opinion won't count for much unless those at SoE agree.</p><p>What won't be reversed are the changes to the proc formula. They might tweak it but I don't think we will ever be so Proc dependent again - which is probably a good thing. Maybe CA damage might get a little boost or CA timers changed. The exact nature of the changes will depend where we are hurting - solo ability and group/raid DPS. For instance, suggestions to allow some ranged CA's to be performed point blank would help solo abaility but do nothing to help raid DPS if that's too low.</p><p>Mirdo.</p><p>Message Edited by Mirdo on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:53 PM</span></p>

[BedlamX]

As long as you keep paying they IMHO will keep brushing our concerns under the rug. Why make the changes? That will only take man or woman hours and money to accomplish. The constructive posts, the ranting posts, the flaming posts are all being over looked and chaulked up as whining.  Again IMO only, I think SOE feels that rangers will get tired of posting and eventually will just accept it and go on. The are weathering the storm. And while I spewing out my opinions  AH never mind nobody from SOE cares about me just my bank account. IF I am wrong please prove me wrong I will gladly appoligize for every negative comment I have ever made.BedlamX

[Mirdo]

<div>Nice font Tasye, the colour works well with it.</div><div> </div><div>Please, enlighten us with some more of your objective pearls of wisdom. I await your next, carefully weighted and considered post with eager anticipation.</div><div> </div><div>Maybe mix up the colours a little next time, a int of green here, a dash of fuschia there - let your artisitic juices flow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>You have fun with it now.</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div>

[Tasye]

<u><i><b><font size="7" face="Verdana"><font color="#ffff00">BEDLAM SAID IT BEST.</font><font color="#ff00cc">As long as you keep paying they IMHO</font> <font color="#ff0033">will keep brushing our concerns under</font> <font color="#ccff00">the rug. Why make the changes? That</font> <font color="#ff0000">will only take man or woman hours and</font> <font color="#ff00cc">money to accomplish. The constructive posts, the ranting posts, the flaming posts are all being over looked and</font> <font color="#0033ff">chaulked up as whining.  Again IMO only, I think SOE feels that rangers will get tired of posting and eventually will just accept it and go on. The are weathering the storm. And while I spewing out my opinions  AH never</font> mind nobody from SOE cares about me just my bank account. IF I am wrong please prove me wrong I will gladly appoligize for every negative comment I have ever made.</font></b></i></u><div></div>

[Mirdo]

<div>That brought a tear to my eye!</div><div> </div><div>The use of colour, the even bigger font, is there no end to your creative talent? Forget the message, that's secondary. Do you attend art school, perhaps on a scholarship?</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo. </div>

[Trollb]

<div>Why should rangers be top dps?</div><div> </div><div>To my way of thinking mages should be top no questions asked; pet class at the bottom of top tier.</div><div> </div><div>scouts next; assassins/rangers at top tier 2, dirge/troub at bottom.</div><div> </div><div>light tanks tier 3</div><div> </div><div>heavy tanks, healers with some minimal overlap to tier3 for offensive types.</div><div> </div><div>Doesnt seem that that horrible of a system.</div><div> </div><div>So by my way of thinking, if you guys are similar damage to rogues you are about where you should be.  If they give you an upgrade, it wont be by much.</div><div> </div>

[Danla]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Atarinya wrote:<div></div><div>After reading thru quite a few of the posts as well as playing a Ranger, i have 1 question...., (Devs and anyone that can answer please feel free to do so), is this the way the Ranger will function in~game permanently or will there be measures taken to analyze & correct the LU20 changes? Basically are the changes "THE SET IN STONE" and Final revamping of the class or a work in progress that will be evaluated and adjusted?</div><hr></blockquote><p>i would say the fact that these changes made it live, is a good indication that the LU20/KoS update was final.  having said that, there is a possiblilty that they may "tweak" somethings to "balance" portion of the updates out.  I strongly believe that SOE will never completely undo changes...because to do that, would mean they would have to admit that they were wrong and wasted money, time, etc.</p><p>"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." -Albert Einstein</p>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><div>Welcome back Trollboy. I see you haven't spent your short break from the ranger forums learning anything about how classes (including your own) work, looking at how the Dev's perceive the damage tiers or, well, anything really.</div><div> </div><div>If we get an upgrade by your way of thinking it won't be much - well that remains to be seen. Unless the Dev's change their minds about damage tiers (which have beeb debated and fixed quite a long time now it seems),our damage will be increased beyond swashies and brigands - SoE's rules not mine.</div><div> </div><div>Wasn't it only recently you got your Swashy from 30's into 40's? It's still not too late to switch to a sorcerer or Predator if you want a true DPS class and are happy to do without some of the Rogue utility (Rangers are predators btw - I saw you got that wrong in an earlier post).</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Fennir]

The changes are definitely not final.  Gallenite already apologized on the FoH forums for hitting us too hard.  Blackguard has also made a strong effort to get feedback from people who play rangers, and is going to play one himself at multiple level ranges.  We will get a boost, this much I'm sure of.  How?  No clue.Also, I have to laugh at the people who have their own DPS hierarchy in their mind that they think SOE should follow (LOL PETS CLASS #1), considering SOE has already determined that Assassins and Rangers are T1 DPS just like warlocks and wizards.  End of story, sorry if you don't like it.<div></div>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><p>They won't have to admit they were wrong. The basic change according to their Beta data made sense - the proc mechanic did not scale well into T7 so it had to be changed - I can live with that.</p><p>They have never said this is the final state of Rangers only that they will review us after the proc mechanic was changed. If they do boost us a little it will just be to make up for some of what we lost as a result of the change to the proc mechanics - no loss of face or backpeddaling required whatsoever.</p><p>Mirdo. </p>

[BedlamX]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<div>Why should rangers be top dps?</div><div> </div><div>To my way of thinking mages should be top no questions asked; pet class at the bottom of top tier.</div><div> </div><div>scouts next; assassins/rangers at top tier 2, dirge/troub at bottom.</div><div> </div><div>light tanks tier 3</div><div> </div><div>heavy tanks, healers with some minimal overlap to tier3 for offensive types.</div><div> </div><div>Doesnt seem that that horrible of a system.</div><div> </div><div>So by my way of thinking, if you guys are similar damage to rogues you are about where you should be.  If they give you an upgrade, it wont be by much.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>We all know what you think troll thanks for posting the same thing over and over and over mages are number one in your book ok we get it now post this on the mage forum you'll get good responces. ah well your as useless to talk to as SOE hmm maybe you are SOE anyway dont expect not to get flamed here with that commemt. Its just like a sporting event and your the away team expect to get hammered by the home town fans. I have given you enough attention get away from me kid ya bother meBedlamX</span></div>

[Trollb]

<div></div><p>"We all know what you think troll thanks for posting the same thing over and over and over mages are number one in your book ok we get it now post this on the mage forum you'll get good responces. ah well your as useless to talk to as SOE hmm maybe you are SOE anyway dont expect not to get flamed here with that commemt. Its just like a sporting event and your the away team expect to get hammered by the home town fans. I have given you enough attention get away from me kid ya bother me"</p><p>See, you moan and talk smack, but cant answer the one important question;</p><p>Why should rangers be the top dps class in the game?</p>

[Bithnar]

<div></div>Uhm. . .  maybe because SoE said so?  SoE had repeatedly said we are to be T1 - right now we are not.  You want to say that wizards are to be T1 period I don't think thats what SoE has in mind I think that top DPS is and should be situational.

[ary]

<div></div><div></div>In stories rangers always drop things from range .That is what rangers do they are top DPS at range .Legolas was top at range he dropped an elephant in a shot.Why should a fantasy game not follow legends and stories. Rangers are the masters of bows they should be able to drop things before it reaches them just as wizards should be able to root and kill them at range.<p>Message Edited by aryel on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:00 AM</span></p>

[Mirdo]

<div>Trollboy, don't you mean why should Rangers be in the top tier of DPS in the game?</div><div> </div><div>If that's you question then the answer is utility. The problem is, as you demonstrated on your own forum, you aren't really an expert in your chosen class - that's ok - neither am I. The thing is, if you don't really understand how to get the most from your own class, on what basis can you critique another?</div><div> </div><div>You really should have looked at the DPS tiering and created a char in the t1 DPS category - that seems to be what you really crave. Like I said before it's not too late to switch. An assassin is a higher DPS alternative to your swashy that is largely melee based.</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[SIlly Muffin]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>trollboi,</div><div> </div><div>The answer to your query isnt as simple as your question implies. It shows a poor undertsanding of what Rangers are discussing. We are NOT asking to be the SOLE uber damage class. What we are discussing the very nature of what our role now is. Let me explain a few things.</div><div> </div><div>1. Rangers have no utility other that any other scout has (evac, pathfinding, track). Indeed, spells such as evac and speed buffs are also present in non-scout classes</div><div>      - yes we have few weak debuffs but other classes have much better veersions of these debuffs</div><div>2. Our DPS is now comparable (nd usually less than) the other scout classes. It is in fact less than some non-DPS classes. This is especially true when we solo.</div><div>3, We pay for what little value added DPS we have that even makes us do sub-par DPS (arrows/poisons)</div><div> </div><div>Given the three factors listed above: the big question for the ranger community is - What is our role. We are no longer a T1 DPS class. We offer no utility (unique buffs, skills) that others can offer with the benefit of comparable or better  DPS. yet to even reach t2 now we have to PAY a lot of money . In effect if we go by base DPS we are a T3 class now - with no real use outside of poor dps.</div><div> </div><div>By the very nature of the initial defenition (by SOE) of Rangers was that we were to be very powerful damage dealers - for that reason we have no other utility.</div><div> </div><div>Having medium armour is not really a benefit. Since our best DPS is as non-tank our armour comes hardly into play. Frankly i'd readily give up chain for leather just to have more utility and DPS. We're not designed for face-to-face combat. Regardless of whether we wear chain or leather - our melee CAs dont really offer much that prevents even cons from burying us anyways now. Indeed, ive just as often wore cloth/leather items as much as chain, as frankly it doesnt make that much difference.</div><div> </div><div>muffin</div><div>    </div><p>Message Edited by SIlly Muffin on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:17 AM</span></p>

[NorrinRadd]

<div></div>Thanks for the responses,btw I'm not interested in the "Top DPS" issues, nor in which Class does more damage in a Raid, Party, or Solo, i just want to know if this is the Ranger i need to prepare myself to continue playing and plan accordingly. 

[klepp]

<div></div><p>umm trollboy, fitting name.  Im ok with rangers not being top of teir 1  IF they give us some utility and give us free poisons.  Otherwise im cool on coughing up a few plat a day to try and keep up w/ the low end of t1 thanks...</p><p>guessin you dont play a ranger so have nfc exactly how bad thigns are?</p>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>Since SOE enveloped what was Verant Interactive back in EQ1 I'm trying to recall when SOE has ever corrected an overnerf within a 6 month period... I can't recall such an instance. Their average is 9-12 months. They also favour performing such adjusments whether nerf or nerf reversal as part of expansions or certainly close enough to an expansion to be overshadowed by it.</p><p>It would be nice if they changed their striped, and I'm certainly not saying it's impossible, but I wouldn't be banking on it.</p>

[BedlamX]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<p>See, you moan and talk smack, but cant answer the one important question;</p><p>Why should rangers be the top dps class in the game?</p><hr></blockquote><p>First off I should inform you that what I said wasnt smack nor moaning just the plain simple truth. If I bother someone I would expect that they let me know it.</p><p>Simply put it is my opinion that Rangers should be top DPS because SOE has found it in their heart to not give us anything else.  Every scout can pathfind Dirges it seems have an even better speed buff. Evac is had by the mage class, I cant off the top of my head remember which. SOE in a previous update has given the ability to succesfully disarm traps to everyone. Rangers have 0 group buffs we can only wear medium armor we have NO taunts we cant heal we cant rez we dont have usefull pets sure my tiger is cute to look at and he purs alot but other than that just another fluff we only have 1 AOE attack and that has been limited. Our stealth is not class specific mages also have that . Besides any sap off the street can buy a totem and stealth themselves these days. Just to name a few. I have said this a dozen times if we cant have any of that at least we should be DPS  and for that matter the top DPS. I will say this once WE HAVE NOTHING ELSE DPS IS OUR JOB we should be able to do it well. I dont get invited to a raid (pre LU20) to feed the tank I get invited to kill. </p><p>SOE has given us 11 Ranged CA's + 1 quick shot and they want us to be close combat personel what sense does that make? None.  Out of those 11 CA's 4 of them shoot multiple arrows and if you have Archers frenzy active all 11 will shoot multiple arrows. SOE believes that all scouts are dumber than a rock. What self respecting scout would apply poison to only 1 arrow or 1 weapon None that I know of.  The poison proc was not the only thing that SOE has done to knock the Ranger down either. Those imbuned rings dont proc worth a dam I lost 10pt on my STR just from that and we all know that STR has a little bit to do with DPS. People Dont be fooled eventually I will be band from posting so I might as well say this again. For SOE this is not a game this is money. It cost money to roll out expansions they do these nerfs to slow people down. IF we lvl too quickly we may become bored we may cancel for awhile and the customer base will shrink. I dont think the majority of the people think in these terms. SOE will roll out the PR machine tell you we are looking into the problem and IMO they string us along and wait for things to become quiet again. I feel that SOE has forgotten that we are the consumers it is their JOB to make the consumers happy. They see us as dumb animal who will take any kind of sustenance they provide because they know we are hungry they know we enjoy thier product they have most of us right where they want us. The changes we as rangers want will never be made simply because it is not in their best interest to do so.  SOE will make changes to draw the WoW people in they NERF classes to keep them here once they are hooked.  I am sorry I went off a bit but what the hell I wasnt having fun playing the game anyway. I sincerly hope that I am wrong. Trust me I will not be holding my breath. Good hunting.</p><p>BedlamX</p>

[NorrinRadd]

<div>Guys, it can get really tiring when every thread that is began turns into 2-4 people arguing some point that noone really cares about to begin with.Do me a favor & take the "TOP DPS" argument elsewhere i'm not interested in that at all and I'd like my thread to stay rantfree concerning an argument thats totally pointless to begin with.</div>

[BedlamX]

<blockquote><hr>Atarinya wrote:<div>Guys, it can get really tiring when every thread that is began turns into 2-4 people arguing some point that noone really cares about to begin with.Do me a favor & take the "TOP DPS" argument elsewhere i'm not interested in that at all and I'd like my thread to stay rantfree concerning an argument thats totally pointless to begin with.</div><hr></blockquote><p>You have a valid point but I think I tried to explain in my post why I feel they wouldnt fix the problem. Business decision. IMHO which means practically nothing.</p><p>Bedlamx</p>