Post about Rangers by Gallenite on FohGuild forums

[Man0wa]

<div></div> Can't figure out how to quote so I'll just post the link, its about halfway down page 4.http://www.fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18358&page=4

[Keredh]

<div></div>I am glad that the developers found time to post in that manner on the official ranger forums of the game. *shakes head disbelievingly*

[Man0wa]

He posts there for the same reason WoW devs post there.1) Less spamming threads2) Actual discussion with intelligent people instead of death threats every other post.3) No whiners, look at the first page of our forum.<div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

[Removed for Content], customer relations at it's best.Quick someone do a google, i'm sure the developers have responded to our posts it's just they posted them on a different site.Am I misisng something here? Who are FOH and why is the dude from SoE posting there and not here?

[Bithnar]

<div>My favorite quote:</div><div> </div><div>"After these changes, Rangers are still top tier damage. They're just not the highest damage in the game, and they're likely not soloing yellow con group encounters."</div><div> </div><div>Hmm, looks like everyone who is not at SoE has a messed up parser because their's still show us at T1 DPS.</div><div> </div><div>Oh wait I just noticed he didn't say which tier. :smileytongue:</div>

[Keredh]

<div></div><div></div><p>I read the posts in the thread... Didn't strike me as being any less whiney than the posts here. Plenty of class triumphalism and general sneering and a liberal use of the word [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Apart from that, the intellectual calibre seemed about the same.</p><p>Thanks for posting the link btw. Appreciated.</p><p>Message Edited by Keredh on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:18 AM</span></p>

[Jagdwol]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr><div><a target="_blank" href="http://www.fohguild.org/forums/member.php?s=b6f5b409da769700bc0039a387d235b9&u=12384"><font size="5" color="#ee3300">Gallenite</font></a> vbmenu_register("postmenu_436053", true);</div><div>Registered User</div><div><div>Join Date: Nov 2004</div><div>Posts: 79</div><div></div></div><!-- message --><div>It's definitely an unfortunate situation, and the Rangers have my apologies for this turning out the way that it did. We've talked about it some on our boards already --After the combat changes last year, by the time people got experienced playing them at 60, Rangers ended up doing more dps than we had planned. Due largely to poisons, they rose into the #1 dps position by a measurable but not huge margin, a bit outside of what we expected anyone to hit in normal EQ2 combat.They were a lot more powerful than we had expected, but not game-breakingly so. We knew we'd have to address it, but we assumed that it would be sane to do so in the existing mechanics with some scaling in the way the next tier of upgrades worked.As we moved gear/arts/achievements/poisons/etc to beta for KoS (60-70), Rangers shot off all of the DPS charts beyond anything we could correct in data as we'd hoped.The highest logged fights (vs blue through orange) were just over 4,000 dps, with a single Ranger now providing a sustainable 8-10x more damage than the #2 slot and about 50x the lowest slot. That's when we realized there was obviously a bigger systemic problem than we had thought. A game can't be made to scale at that rate for one alpha class. With that kind of damage differential, there would literally need to be "Ranger content" and "everyone else content."That led us to look into what exactly happened, and we traced it back to two bugs whose multiplying effect wasn't readily apparent before KoS.1) A bug with normalized procrates. Just like in EQ, EQ2's proc rates are slightly normalized to the speed of the weapon. Use a slower weapon, get more frequent procs. Use a faster weapon, get less frequent procs, making the proc rate a little less sensitive to weapon speed. Bows are slow weapons - This is important.The main bug was that proc rates from combat arts were assuming that you were using your abilities at the slower speed of your ranged weapon, not the fast speed of your combat art, causing fast combat arts to proc at the normalized/increased rate. The fix is to make them normalize to the rate of the combat art. Drop a high end frontloaded DD poison on your arrows, you're multiplying damage.2) Compounding that bug, a secondary bug was causing abilities that fired two or three attacks to have a chance to proc two or three times, again, at that same accelerated procrate.After these changes, Rangers are still top tier damage. They're just not the highest damage in the game, and they're likely not soloing yellow con group encounters.That's not to say they're perfect as is - we're monitoring dps from live servers daily. Rangers will be remaining top tier. If it looks like they dip out of it at all, we'll correct it, but we have to do so in a system that doesn't have these unintentional dps multipliers occurring.Sometimes in the name of not nerfing something that people have grown accustomed to, it's safe to treat the symptoms just in data, like we had hoped to do. In this particular case, I'm afraid it couldn't work out that way.Hope that makes sense,- Scott<i>edit: That was a lot more than I thought I'd just typed, just looking in this little text box.</i></div><!-- / message --><!-- sig --><div>_____________________Scott HartsmanSenior Producer, EverQuest II</div><hr></blockquote>Bahahahaahahahaaa why couldn't he post that here? I mean my Assassin can take on multiple Yellows and survive why shoudln't a ranger be able to?<p>Message Edited by Jagdwolfe on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:21 AM</span></p>

[Bayler_x]

He gave the same line Blackguard had: the mechanics they changed were "bugs", and that nobody was aware of the way they interacted until people started hitting level 60, long after the combat upgrade.  (Despite the fact that we rangers had been talking about it weeks after the game's launch, posting log snippets, parses, essays on the reasons and what to do with that info, and other such proofs.  But then, we posted here, rather than FoH forums, so nobody at SOE probably saw them.)<div></div>

[Spectralmist]

<div></div><p>I really can't see how Item 2 is a bug.  If we send off multiple arrows, why shouldn't they each have a chance to proc?</p><p>Much as I hate the Item 1 'adjustment', at least it makes sense to me.  The second one doesn't.</p>

[Bithnar]

<div>Also since triple fire line CONSUMES 3 arrows why shouldn't they each have a chance to proc?</div><div> </div><div>(If the multipule shot lines dont consume multipule arrows then I am a goof and ignore this post :smileytongue: )</div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Man0warr wrote:He posts there for the same reason WoW devs post there.1) Less spamming threads2) Actual discussion with intelligent people instead of death threats every other post.3) No whiners, look at the first page of our forum.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It's cause of their lack of posting that we don't respond well.  Priest's/Fighter's/Mage's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] they get Dev's posting in their forum.  Scouts have issues and it's posted in Gameplay or Combat discussion.  Several of us have been posting good data and some helpful suggestions...not a peep.  Yes, some of us are going to straight out flame, but I can't blame them one bit Rangers in particular have gone through three major revisions.  Agility change, LU13 tweaking, LU20 change some good, some bad.  I've been a Ranger since day one and I can't see my self as any other class.  I don't expect alot, but when it's our turn to give feed back (negative or positive) on a change.  We shouldn't have others feel we don't have any right to even speak our peace like this is no big deal it's 'just' Rangers.  I've gone back into other class's forums and seen the attitude is different when they are changed.  It's just a healer or tank thing.  With us it seems like it's Rangers vs.  most of the rest of the community.  There are those who good or bad do post good information and really are just out for a positive game change whether it be a negative change to a particular class.  Those are more the exception then the rule however.  I think there's something wrong with a system that requires you to go to a GUILD site for information from a Dev.  This is how I feel about this and no differing viewpoint is going to change the dozens of posts I've seen that make me feel this way.</p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p><p>   </p><p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:37 AM</span></p>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>leafnin wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Man0warr wrote:He posts there for the same reason WoW devs post there.1) Less spamming threads2) Actual discussion with intelligent people instead of death threats every other post.3) No whiners, look at the first page of our forum.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It's cause of their lack of posting that we don't respond well.  Priest's/Fighter's/Mage's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] they get Dev's posting in their forum.  Scouts have issues and it's posted in Gameplay or Combat discussion.  Several of us have been posting good data and some helpful suggestions...not a peep.  Yes, some of us are going to straight out flame, but I can't blame them one bit Rangers in particular have gone through three major revisions.  Agility change, LU13 tweaking, LU20 change some good, some bad.  I've been a Ranger since day one and I can't see my self as any other class.  I don't expect alot, but when it's our turn to give feed back (negative or positive) on a change.  Others feel we don't have any right to even speak our peace like this is no big deal it's 'just' Rangers.  I've gone back into other class's forums and seen the attitude is different when they are changed.  It's just a healer or tank thing.  With us it seems like it's Rangers vs.  most of the rest of the community.  There are those who good or bad do post good information and really are just out for a positive game change whether it be a negative change to a particular class.  Those are more the exception then the rule however.  I think there's something wrong with a system that requires you to go to a GUILD site for information from a Dev.  This is how I feel about this and no differing viewpoint is going to change the dozens of posts I've seen that make me feel this way.</p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p><p>   </p><hr></blockquote>I'm still amazed at how badly SoE are handling this whole situation, it's a complete mess.Each post by a developer seems to just inflame the situation ever more. I'm not sure what can be done now to help the situation anymore.I do hope lessons are learned here, from the point of view of rangers the damage is done and I think SoE has lost the support of the ranger community.

[MaddBomber]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:I'm still amazed at how badly SoE are handling this whole situation, it's a complete mess.Each post by a developer seems to just inflame the situation ever more. <font color="#ff0000">I'm not sure what can be done now to help the situation anymore.</font>I do hope lessons are learned here, from the point of view of rangers the damage is done and I think SoE has lost the support of the ranger community.<hr></blockquote><p>Here is how you help the situation. . .</p><p>Dev_Post:We found a bug that caused a multi attack ability (like tripple shot) not have a chance to proc on each attack.  We are working on a fix for this now.  The intent of the change was to stop it from causing 1 attack proced, they all proced, multiple times.  After this change goes live we will continue to look at dmg accross the board and adjust as necessary.  Our goal is to have rangers in line with other classes at or near the top of the dmg list in most single target encounters.  Keep the bugs/suggestions coming!</p>

[Man0wa]

FoH forums and before that foh.noows forums have been an important place for information for Devs since the beginning of EQ, since at the time the leader of Fires of Heaven Furor was the main source of feedback on high end raiding. Although he doesn't post anymore since he works for Blizzard now, it's still where alot of the raiding/uber guilds post and share ideas, since it's known game developers atleast read those forums, sometimes they even post.Thats probably why he posts feedback there, as the changes hurt the 50+ ranger crowd more than anything.<div></div>

[Man0wa]

And I was just posting the link for info, didn't mean to start up this whole flame Gallenite thread, hes the main reason EQ2 has been slowly improving. I thought it was interesting that he said we should still be in Tier 1 DPS, from my own experience I can say this isn't so, or atleast we are at the very bottom. Perhaps now we know their agenda, we can make some constructive posts about what our DPS stands now against other Tier 1 and 2 classes, with numbers, etc. And not fill the front page with quitting posts, whining threads, etc, even though I understand how some of you feel. It won't help our class by just posting that stuff.<div></div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Man0warr wrote:And I was just posting the link for info, didn't mean to start up this whole flame Gallenite thread, hes the main reason EQ2 has been slowly improving. I thought it was interesting that he said we should still be in Tier 1 DPS, from my own experience I can say this isn't so, or atleast we are at the very bottom. Perhaps now we know their agenda, we can make some constructive posts about what our DPS stands now against other Tier 1 and 2 classes, with numbers, etc. And not fill the front page with quitting posts, whining threads, etc, even though I understand how some of you feel. It won't help our class by just posting that stuff.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Oh I can understand his reasoning for posting there.  I just don't see the point of these forums is all.  Why don't we just move all these posts there?  Would save them time and if it got things fixed quicker I'm all for it.  When I see Devs post more on an unofficial site then their official site it leaves me with little hope for their product.  It makes me think of the dev from the PS3 and his comment on what he was working on <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lol</p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p>

[Vacan]

<div></div><p>Sorry, I'm not whining.</p><p>I'm saying that they didn't test these changes completely and now have decreased the DPS to much.</p><p>The players shouldn't have to tell them this they should already know this information. They changed things in multiple areas and these combined changes are what has cause us to be where we are now. This should not have go live the way it is!!</p><p>I feel they were to wrapped up in the expansion to do this correctly and now we are going to have to endure a period of ineffectiveness that we should not have to endure.</p><p>I don't care if we are ubber I just want to be able to be effective in what the class is suppose to be effective in. I don't want to have to pay gold to be subpar. I don't think it should ever cost us to be T1 DPS if it doesn't cost the other T1 DPS classes.</p><p>Did they test these changes for at all levels and in all zones? Did they test this with solo content? The low level Range was never as effective as the high level ranger and to change them impacts the more as well as the soloer!</p><p>This is not whining this is stating the obvious situation.</p>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div>Where does this only affect 50+ rangers? I couldn't take on a group of yellows before this, or even a group of white cons, barely blue cons. He uses someone who can as his example, so now those of us who are under 50 and NOT doing that sort of damage are going to be affected even more.

[Ai064]

<div></div><div>Not that the whiners will care but I am officially retiring my ranger.  If he's logged in you can bet he's working alchemy.  He'll be a lvl 60 ranger lvl 70 alchemist at least.  I can only hope that raids are that much more difficult and time consuming for the classes that cried nerf until SOE went overboard with their "fix".</div>

[Karvar]

<div></div><div>Wow ... my jaw just hit the floor... SOE will post on a guild boards.. but not on there own...</div><div> </div><div>there has to be a reason .. does FOH just get that much more traffic than this board??  ok what ever the reason ... a dupe post to this board should have been made by him at least to show some kinda concern for this communittee right here that they host on there own boards... darn that is a real slap in the face...</div><div> </div><div>as far as what he posted... that is so far over the top Spin .. it is not even funny ... fine they might be dev.. but as players and users of the tech they give us ... we KNOW what it can do .. and those numbers both in KOS beta and Live server ... do not even resemble reality...</div><div> </div><div>oh well it is there game and they hold all the keys... guess i will wait till they just remove rangers and ranged DPS from the game like they did with Creature handlers in SWG ... hell it is same company .. what makes you think they would not repeat stuff... they do with Zones and content .. they did with server merges like they did in eq1... why not take a note from SWG and limit number of classes .... ranger to hard to code ... nerfing not working .. heck lets just rip them out of the game al together..</div><div> </div><div>karvar</div><p>Message Edited by Karvar on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:43 PM</span></p>

[Tasye]

<font size="5" color="#ffffcc"><b>THE ONLY LOGICAL REASON HE WOULD HAVE FOR PARTICIPATING IN THOSE FORUMS AND NOT SOE FORUMS IS....DRUMROLL........JUST IMHO, MY WILD GUESS: HE'S TRYING TO MAKE HIMSELF NOTICED TO A COUPLE OF PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR BLIZZARD IN THE HOPES THAT HE CAN GO TO WORK FOR THEM.$5 BET SAYS HE'LL BE AT BLIZZARD SOON.</b></font><div></div>

[A]

<div></div>He has been posting there for a long time and since Furor joined Blizzard, Furor has been mostly away from those boards and is not the one in charge of them anymore...

[Racmo]

<div></div><p>no whining or immaturity on that board?  Were you reading the same thread I was?</p><p> </p><p>Tobi</p><p>45 Ranger</p>

[Skyrocket]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ail wrote:<div></div>Furor has been mostly away from those boards ...<hr></blockquote><p>O Rly?</p><p> </p><p></p><hr>Tasye wrote:<font size="5" color="#ffffcc"><b>$5 BET SAYS HE'LL BE AT BLIZZARD SOON.</b></font><div></div><hr><p>I will take that bet. </p><p> </p>

[Jay]

<div></div><p>I think it's disgusting that Scott Hartsman is doing more to communicate with one single guild about ranger changes than he is doing to communicate with rangers using his own company's class forum.</p><p>Way to show us you care, Scott. Really feeling that commitment to your playerbase now.</p>

[Man0wa]

More people read that forum than this one.<div></div>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><p>Maybe more people read it because he wont post here?  But thats a lousy, absolutely lousy reason to post there and not here. </p><p>This is the OFFICAL EQII forums for Pete's sake!</p>

[The_Wind]

FoH = Fires of Heaven, they were located on the Veeshan server.  Furor was a PITA, but he knew what he was doing.  People tend to give him too much credit tho.The main thing that "bugs" me about this whole "bug" situation is that its not really a "bug" at all.  It annoys the hell outta me the more they call it a bug, because its not, and never was.  It was a game mechanic, which ended up having "unintended results."  That is a HUGE difference.  Calling it a bug is saying that it was never meant to be there in the first place.  Which is wrong, it was there because they wanted it.  What happened because of it was unintended.  So they fixed it.  I was exploiting a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bug being a ranger.  Most of us rangers agreed beforehand, we were too powerful and it was only a matter of time before we got knocked back.  We wanted to be scaled down, some of us because we didn't like the ease of which it made the game, others just to get the stupid wizards to shut up for a change.  Now, were left wanting.  Wizards, I bet, still have the ability to solo ^^^ mobs using their roots and what not.  They did it before, we just did it easier.  True, we have the ability to melee them, to take a significant amount more of damage due to better armor.  But they make up for it in sheer power and utility we don't possess, on top of which they don't have to pay for.  It was one thing saying this when our damage was much greater than theirs, but to require it just to sustain their tier of damage is rediculous. <div></div>

[Lightboy]

Soe has strange ways to do things.However, it's good to know they are on it. Hopefully, they won't take years to fix it.Shoudn't a ranger be a effective bow class? Just asking <span>:smileytongue:</span><div></div>