Constructive Feedback Only plz!

[Ranja]

<div></div><div></div><div>Jay beat me to one of my posts and he brings up several good points in his. Are we able to do our job effectively? I want to keep this thread focused on the changes that we need to help do our jobs effectively. Remember the proc changes are here to stay so saying stuff like go back to the old way is not going to cut it. I want constructive and creative ideas on things SOE can do to bring us back up to our T1 status and also help us solo effectively. Ony constructive feedback please, becasue as Jay said, if you want to whine and complain there are a ton of other thread out there already (and it is ok to whine and complain. We all need to vent).</div><div> </div><div>OK with that said, here are several things I think we can use to make us more effective.</div><div> </div><div>1. An increase in damage on all of our ranged CAs of about 20%-40%</div><div>2. Maybe one or two more frontal melee attacks that do significant amount of damage</div><div>3. A root or snare that actually works to keep the mob off of us so we can use our bow CAs while solo</div><div>4. A stun that works on ^ mobs as well as no arrow mobs. I think Swashies have this already.</div><div>5. Another debuff that debuffs melee skills so we have a chance to survive when going melee with mobs.</div><div>6. Point blank shot skill. The higher the skill the less interrupts and misses we would have. The lower the skill the easier it would be for us to get interrupted. Also, factors in the amount of damage we take in factoring interrupts.</div><div>7. giev us the ability to summon appropriate level arrows to fill the whole quiver, not just a few arrow.  Wtih the new importance of auto-attack  and haste this sounds like a good idea</div><div> </div><div>Those are a couple of the top of my head. As good ones are posted I will keep updating this thread. Hopefully, we can get some good ideas and some feedback as to whether we are on the right track.</div><div> </div><div>Elbryan60 Ranger</div><p>Message Edited by bentgate on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:55 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by bentgate on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:10 AM</span></p>

[klepp]

<div></div><p>the only problem i see, is theyve already made changes we know they arent going to dchange back.. at the risk of making themselves look stupid.   Deb. arrow on the move is gone for good.  Our traps are gonna only catch 1 mob from now on..  So much for being effective on raid adds ect.  The trick shot nerf i wont even try to understand....</p><p>prove me wrong dev's.. and do it quick, im nto having fun anymroe and i feel like im wasting my time sitting in front of my computer if im nto having fun.</p>

[Cael]

<div></div><p>I dont want any more melee attacks. Period the end. If so, ya know, assassin....anyway, I think the easiest fix would be to let us use bows regardless of range. Mob gets in your face, ok, trip fire, sharp shot, whatever, LET ME USE MY BOW IM A RANGER</p>

[Ranja]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caelum wrote:<div></div><p>I dont want any more melee attacks. Period the end. If so, ya know, assassin....anyway, I think the easiest fix would be to let us use bows regardless of range. Mob gets in your face, ok, trip fire, sharp shot, whatever, LET ME USE MY BOW IM A RANGER</p><hr></blockquote><p>That is actaully not a bad one. Maybe a skill called point blank shot that needs to be increased. An actual skill<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> the lower the skill the more chance you have to be interrupted or miss. The higher the skill the better chance of success. I will add that one to the list.</p><p> </p><p>Thanks!</p>

[Khevy]

<div></div><p>Well first they need to take away the cost of being a Ranger.  Last night I looked at what it would take to fill up a quiver with Inidum Arrows and it would be abotu 64 gold a night.  the cost of poison has gown down since we dont' proc that much, but it is only a matter of time before the alchemists jack up the prices do to reduced volume of sales.</p><p>1) giev us the ability to summon appropriate level arrows to fill the whole quiver, not just a few arrow.  Also they can just take arrows out the game period.  If you got a bow then you shoot it.</p><p>2) Give us poisons as an ability.  Or make our CA's have different poison effects.  Last night I was killed by a level 56 ^ ecounter that could heal.  If something can heal then we cannot kill it since our DPS is lower.</p><p>3)  Significantly raise the amount of damage we do.  Get us on par with our Tier 1 counterparts.</p><p>4) Allow us to use our bow and CA's point blank range.  We are supposed to be ranged Damage, not close combat.  Leave the infighting to the assasains.</p>

[Ranja]

<div></div><div>Again the point blank idea - I like that one. I also like the idea of tier appropriate summon arrows given the upped importance of auto-attack now</div><div> </div><div>Elbryan60 Ranger</div><div> </div>

[Bithnar]

<div>Bentgate,</div><div> </div><div>That skill is already in game, its called focus.  I get interupted now and again while trying to sneak in one more bow CA when the mob hits me and interupts me.  But yes I think we should be able to use bows at close range since thats what we have been relegated to.</div>

[StealthM0]

<div>I tested my ranger extensively yesteday in solo as well as mixed t5/t6 groups. And I dont have any hard numbers (cause the darn parser crashed) but I can tell you this. We aren't nerfed as bad as you think.</div><div> </div><div>There are a few things I would like to ask SoE to look at though.</div><div> </div><div>Imbued rings:</div><div>3% chance to proc is a load of troll waste, I know I had a good 400 encounters yesterday/last night/overnight and not ONCE did my rings proc. This proc rate percentage needs to be raised or they need to change rings back to constantly on OR back to USE with duration only. This 3% chance to proc with a 45 second timer is crap.</div><div> </div><div>Bow ca's:</div><div>When I started firing debilitating arrow and went to back up and it displayed interrupted I almost cried. We have zero moving bow ca's now. We at least need one or two MOVING ca's. We aren't meant to stand still and be a melee class taking hits (we dont get heavy armor do we?). I am not saying make our uber dps ca's moving. I am asking that devs look at this and consider a median with maybe lesser damage bow ca's being fired other then stationary.</div><div> </div><div>For BlackGuard, tell your ranger dev friend on test to start soloing instead of sitting still in groups all of the time please. It's obvious his input was group content and not solo conent tested.</div><div> </div><div>Poisons, poisons seem to be proccing the same if not more for me. I am still going through a charge (200 procs) of poison pretty fast (not the 1-3 times a day as I read elsewhere). So poisons are still proccin as they should be. Last night I hit a new record far as arrow usage, I finally wiped out an entire t6 pristine scaled quiver full of makeshift fulginate arrows. One non stop gore fest from 515pm last night to 1am (est when AB went down for 10 minutes) till 955am est today. I decided I was going to thoroughly test these changes before I made any comments regarding the changes.</div><div> </div><div>In conclusion, there are two issues I'd like the devs to at least take a look at, one is the imbued rings are now garbage, you might as well just take the rare and get a nice adept made, or sell it, because its not worth getting a ring made in its present form. They just don't proc...at all. The second being the moving bow ca's, we are rangers, we are not meant to melee, we are meant to stand back and knock the crap out of our target. That is what defines us as a class we have superior bow skills. Well its not so superior when you cant't move 5 feet while shooting, nor at all for that matter. Sure autoattack works on the move, but with the other changes I've noticed (base damage on bows seems lower to me, as in lower then prelu20 postlu19) SoE is changing too much too fast and not taking the variables into account.</div><div> </div><div>Please SoE investigate this issue with imbued rings, cause as it is now imbued rings are worthless and a waste of a good rare imo (I feel like I was ripped off for 1.2plat after the fact. And invesitgate this issue with moving bow ca's. I can't see this as a good thing that these two things are so messed up post lu20.</div><div> </div><div>Lastly quivers, take a close look at these, we should get some type of stat on here, maybe even if its only agi/power, SOMETHING should be on here.</div><div> </div><div>Arrows....even at adept 3 I cant keep enough makeshift fulginate arrows around to last me more then one night of hardcore playing (not raiding just playing). So possibly take a look at this as well, maybe a small increase in the amount made per trigger would help. Maybe it won't I don't know I am just trying to voice my observations constructively. I hope this isn't flamed and read through to see that I do care about rangers and I am trying to be civil about this. There are some changes yet to be made (or un made depending on your view of it).</div>

[TwistedFaith]

Please dont ask for more melee skills <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We're rangers bro, if people want to do T1 DPS with a sword then go a Assasin.

[Ranja]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bithnar wrote:<div>Bentgate,</div><div> </div><div>That skill is already in game, its called focus.  I get interupted now and again while trying to sneak in one more bow CA when the mob hits me and interupts me.  But yes I think we should be able to use bows at close range since thats what we have been relegated to.</div><hr></blockquote><p>Yes focus lets us not get interrupted but a point blank skill would let us fire at point blank. Maybe the skill requires a focus check to prevent from being interrupted.</p><p>Elbryan60 Ragner</p>

[Bithnar]

<div></div>I guess what I was meaning was that Focus already is used to check for interupts, they just now need to let us use our bow CA's at point blank range and use focus to check if we are inturupted . . . so we agree =)

[LoreLady]

<div></div>1: Have arrows consume only on auto attack2: Add another proc skill3: Increase our dots to hit a second, instead of once every 4 seconds(similar to the necro ones)4: Vastly increase auto attack damage5: Increase all our CA damage so we are on par with t1 without using poisons (we shouldent have to pay for our dps)6: Faster cast times on Stealthy fire, and snipers shot7: Keep casttimes the same, but increase damage on these two abilities8: Increase the damage crafted arrows do9: Change the offensive around so that we can proc melee as well as ranged (also change the assassin one around to 30%)10: Give rangers more backshot type abilities that do moderate/heavy damage11: A ranged sneak attack, similar to longshank (I normally find that I use shadow before stealthy fire because im to far out of range)12: Change around stream of arrows so that we can get closer to the mob. (I find when facing giants I have to stand REALLY far away to cast it)13: Give us an ability to get poisons free - similar to  salvage arrows.14: Give us two ranged dots that do not stack with lunging blade or fatal  reminder, and keep those two dots for pure melee15: Eliminate the need to find the "sweet spot" inorder to use meleeskills (longshank, fatalreminder etc) and archery abilities16:Give us group buffs (if sorc's can get them why cant we?, Or increase our DPS so we dont need utility)17:Give us something similar to the assassins apply poison, that will stack with our CA18:Increase track (thats what I loved about eq1, I knew what was up int he zone)19:Change the formula on stats, so that agil or str also adds chance to hit.(do the same for casters)20:Give out quests that will give out rares21: Put on an EQ MP3 player (eq1 had one, why not eq2)22: Put on a EQ parser23:Increase the arrows we get for salvaged arrows to 99 for master 224:A teleport attack to get behind the mob and in ranged/melee range (the sweet spot)25:Give attack speed to quivers (similar to EQ1)Im not going on on how ranger should be number 1 class - I just think that preds should be the top single target damage dealers, and mages should be top group target damage dealers. Our skills were geared that way (But now both rangers and assassins need work).I really hope something is done quick.Edit: Got smileys on <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (: P)<p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:49 AM</span></p>

[Blackguard]

<div></div>Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Blackguard on <span class=date_text>02-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 PM</span>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback.We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will makechanges if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out withhandcrafted gear and App III spells at every 10 level range to checkthem out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty muchevery class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll bediscussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not theonly one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>There are no app III spells to the best of my knowledge.

[Tomanak]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback.We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will makechanges if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out withhandcrafted gear and App III spells at every 10 level range to checkthem out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty muchevery class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll bediscussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not theonly one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>There are no app III spells to the best of my knowledge.<hr></blockquote>Then your knowledge is flawed. As a crafter I can assure you, that a 3rd level combine of a skill up results in an App III.

[LoreLady]

Well, a reply is a reply none the less. Atleast I have some assurance that something is being done, in the meantime I plan to do some parsings each time I group and post snippits  down on what other classes are averaging as oposed to what I am doing. If I am outdamaging everyone,I will post that. If a templar is outdamaging me, I will post that.

[Ranja]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Thanks for responding BG. It is good to know you are monitoring the situation. There are alot of parses floating around on this board and the development corner baord that suggest tanks (zerkers, monks, and bruisers) are outdamaging us on a consistent basis. I know this is not meant to be the case and I know there will be some adjustments made. What I and all of my ranger breatheren are worried about is how long these changes may take. Not a single one of us wants to run around as a gimped DPS classes for 6-12 months seeing all of KoS as a lame duck ranger.</p><p>If procs were reduced, as I think they shuold have been, I think an immediate and practical solution would be to up the damage on our CAs a bit. As it stands now, our heaviest hitting CA , Triple Shot, (besides Sniper Shot) only does about 700-900 damage and that is if all three shots hit (This is without poison procs). I am no expert on other DPS classes but I am sure their heaviest hitter (with a similar recast time) hits much harder. I think the main problem is that you took away procs  from our abilities which were based on procs. The damage from all of our abilities was made on the assumption of the old proc rule. The old proc rule was changed and it therefore made the damage on most of our abilities way underpowered.</p><p>I hope we can continue to give good feedback and you can monitor the situation.</p><p>Elbryan60 Ranger</p><p>Message Edited by bentgate on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by bentgate on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Tomanak wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback.We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will makechanges if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out withhandcrafted gear and App III spells at every 10 level range to checkthem out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty muchevery class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll bediscussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not theonly one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>There are no app III spells to the best of my knowledge.<hr></blockquote>Then your knowledge is flawed. As a crafter I can assure you, that a 3rd level combine of a skill up results in an App III.<hr></blockquote>You sure? I have a lvl 60 alchemist and I rememember reading something about the removal of appIII spells (possibly from merchants?)If i'm mistaken then I apologise, maybe because I never make anything except AdeptIII.

[FlintAH]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Tomanak wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback.We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will makechanges if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out withhandcrafted gear and App III spells at every 10 level range to checkthem out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty muchevery class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll bediscussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not theonly one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>There are no app III spells to the best of my knowledge.<hr></blockquote>Then your knowledge is flawed. As a crafter I can assure you, that a 3rd level combine of a skill up results in an App III.<hr></blockquote>You sure? I have a lvl 60 alchemist and I rememember reading something about the removal of appIII spells (possibly from merchants?)If i'm mistaken then I apologise, maybe because I never make anything except AdeptIII.<hr></blockquote>You are mistaken</span></div>

[Zeijandi]

My constructive post for the quarter.  Yep, this is it, just one.  From now on, it will be nothing more than u r teh sux, l2p, qq, etc...Give rangers back the ability to kite.  Remove the restriction which keeps rangers glued to the ground while they try to shoot.  Kiting takes skill.  Situational awareness.  It doesn't inflate damage one bit, but it allows a skillfull player to avoid some damage and succeed at difficult challenges.  Keep only a couple of arts interruptable, like sniper shot or something, but return the vast majority of them to fireable on the move.  I believe this would help to give some skillful players the fun option to attempt difficult encounters without asking the devs to inflate base CA dmg. This won't help rangers who stand and shoot arrows at big mobs for the duration of a raid, but I would like it considered in the 'Nice things to do in Norrath when you're dead' list.<div></div>

[dancingbe]

As a suggestion BG, please try a healthy amount of soloing as opposed to just grouping.Its a bummer that we cant put out much dps in groups any more certainly, but my biggest complaint with the current situation is the inabiltiy to effectively solo.

[Bithnar]

<div></div><p>BG I would like to make a suggestion.</p><p>Dont use all Adept 3 skills, because not everyone can aford them or find the rares to have them made.  Use a few sure because we all try to get a few of our more used skills there, but mix em up a few Adept 3's, Adept 1's and App 4's.  Also, not sure how your test character are made, ie where they get their gear, but give yourself coin and then buy poisons and arrows and see how fast you go through the coinage to see what we have to do.  Buy your poisons/arrows from a broker/vendor like we do, dont just "create" them out of thin air.  Using the summoned arrow line is fine though :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[SIlly Muffin]

<div></div><div></div><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Ranger Proposals (to get us back to T1 DPS) – Rough suggestions ONLY</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">COMBAT </font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">1. Reduce the cool-down timers for bow procs a tad. These attacks are our bread and butter. Auto-attack with bows is hardly worth it unless you spend a fortune on arrows. </font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">2. <span> </span>Make AGI a useful stat for rangers<span>  </span>vs STR again. We are not asking for invunerability but consider this: Use AGI on rangers to mitigate interrupts for bow auto-attack arts rather than resist saves. A ranger may not be able to use a bow in close 100% the time, but a very agile ranger might be able to do so. </font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">3.<span>  </span>Allow Rangers (only) <span> </span>to kite again, but limit it. Perhaps a moving ranger will have a far lower chance to hit (or hit with less damage) (– 50% each) while kiting than if they standing still. </font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">4. New ability: “Hidden Path” a 50% chance (based on mob level/agility) to fully break/end a combat versus a non-player mob. Effect a solo ranger <span> </span>becomes invisible and “frozen” for 30s; but all aggro/combat is ended. If grouped; ranger reduced aggro to 0 for him/herself rather then end combat – frozen for 15s <span> </span>Rangers are master of evasion in the wild.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">5. Increase the cheap/shot stun to a bit longer with a small percentage to land on heroics. (no not for easy soloability but rather to escape/help group). I’d make it that if a stun lands on a heroic it would break immediately if the mob is it.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">UTILITY </font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">1. <span> </span>Bring back some utility. If we cant be T1 then give us back some of the EQ1 utility we enjoyed – especially for soloability</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span>        </span>A. Root – snares just don’t last long enough. We are rangers, we use bows and if we </font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span> </span>are to solo at all we should be able to use them more than 1 shot openers, Scale it with the mob tier (Regular 50% success, heroic 25%, epic 5%)</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span>        </span>B. Some sort of mini-quick self heals or bandage use. Rangers are <span> </span>supposed be a bit of a survivalist/jack of all trades <span> </span>(low heal / moderate-long cooldown)</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span>        </span>C. Craft poison – I am not asking for legendary <span> </span>/ uber poisons but rather the ability </font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">to make functional tier appropriate damage poison from say a looted poison gland or stinger etc… <span> </span>(not debuff poisons .etc)</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span>    </span></font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span></span></font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">2. If we have to pay for DPS allow us some sort of monetary compensation elsewhere. Perhaps the ability to forage half-decent foods in the wild. Again, not on par with the <span> </span></font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">provisioner foods, but again, tier appropriate functional foods. Perhaps the ability to use raws, in part, <span> </span>as a food substitute</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">3. Scouting. Increase the likelihood of stealthed scout to pass mobs. Especially those lower level than the ranger. Right now invisiblity is useless as it seems almost every mob </font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">can see past it. Even grey mobs many levels below the ranger see through invis.. <span> </span><span> </span><span> </span><span> </span></font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Note: nowhere did I ask for more damage or nerfing another class. I understand and agree that rangers were bit overpowerful. Yet reducing us in DPS to the point we cant solo or meaningfully contribute to DPS beyond that of any other t2-t3 class is untenable. What I am proposing is to make the class a bit more utile and flexible in HOW it fights. We don’t do stand up fights; when we do we try to get away or use our wits and skills. </font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">These ideas may/may not be new. They may be controvertial, but I’d like to see them discussed, as I think they would add some flavour to the class. </font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Muffin</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"></font></font></span> </p><p>Message Edited by SIlly Muffin on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:52 AM</span></p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App III spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><hr></blockquote>your awesome.. thanks for stopping by.</span></div>

[Star]

<div></div><div>A good point mentioned in another thread that I saw was that even if our DPS is in Tier 1 and balanced with Wizards and Warlocks, they still bring, to quote the other poster, "considerably more utility". Wizzies get an Int/Str grp buff. Warlocks get something similar I'm sure. They can root adds if needs be. They bring group buffs to resists. Etc.</div><div> </div><div>So maybe a possible solution, if SOE is dead set that ranger DPS is in Tier 1 and where it should be, is to give us some utility to the group.</div><div> </div><div>I personally would prefer if they put us above the Sorcerers in DPS to compensate for the complete lack of utility we bring to groups other than our DPS.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>SIlly Muffin wrote:<div></div><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Ranger Proposals (to get us back to T1 DPS) – Rough suggestions ONLY</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span></span></font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">2. If we have to pay for DPS allow us some sort of monetary compensation elsewhere. Perhaps the ability to forage half-decent foods in the wild. Again, not on par with the <span> </span></font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">provisioner foods, but again, tear appropriate functional foods. Perhaps the ability to use raws, in part, <span> </span>as a food substitute</font></font></span></p><hr></blockquote>your first AA does that for you.. gives you 2-8 silver every 5 mins while fighting... it add sup</span></div>

[TwistedFaith]

Ok i'll give this a go.Core elements that need to be addressed.1. Damage - If a wizard is going to be tossing out Ice Nova and Ball of Lava hitting for 3.5k and 8k damage each then we need CA's to do similar damage. Our combat arts are woefully inadequate at present. Compare the tier 7 wizard spells to the ranger CA's. This would not have been a issue if we had our procs, but without them you will see how gimped the class is at present.2. If we cant rely on posions to proc and procs in general then factoring them into the equation of our DPS shouldnt be done.3. Rangers want to use a bow, we are not assasins, we do not want to be face to face with the mobs 99% of the time. We need a root like a wizard would have. The proc change has hurt rangers soloing because all rangers who knew what they were doing used a stun potion to solo.4. I dont want utility. Yep you heard me, if I wanted utility I would have rolled a bard or rogue class. I want DPS and I want to be matching everyother T1 DPS class.5. Speed. To put it bluntly rangers are totally and utterly annoyed by this entire debacle, something needs to be done as soon as possible.

[SIlly Muffin]

<div></div><div><hr></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>SIlly Muffin wrote:<div></div><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Ranger Proposals (to get us back to T1 DPS) – Rough suggestions ONLY</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span></span></font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">2. If we have to pay for DPS allow us some sort of monetary compensation elsewhere. Perhaps the ability to forage half-decent foods in the wild. Again, not on par with the <span> </span></font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">provisioner foods, but again, tear appropriate functional foods. Perhaps the ability to use raws, in part, <span> </span>as a food substitute</font></font></span></p><hr></blockquote>your first AA does that for you.. gives you 2-8 silver every 5 mins while fighting... it add sup</span></div><p></p><hr><p>Oh I didnt know that. I was trying to figure out how "Bounty" was supposed to work. :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>However, my point here isnt to give me money easily, but rather a off-set benefit that makes in game sense- be it easier fo rme to get food in wild or perhaps a chance for sellable pelt. etc..  SOmething with more game flavout than just insta-cash.</p><p>Muffin</p>

[Sydares]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Sirlutt wrote:</p><p><span> </p><div>your first AA does that for you.. gives you 2-8 silver every 5 mins while fighting... it add sup</span></div><hr></blockquote>No.

[Runewind]

<div></div>I agree we were overpowered. I logged on last night and it was pretty bad. I imagine we are hit much harder than the devs intended. I'm glad BG is looking into this. I take back the mean things I said about him. I was a bit angry and confused and feeling neglected. Here is my constructive suggestions they're pretty short.First of all I think stun poisons were overpowered so I think they needed to be nerfed for sure I also think that if the weapon speed bug was unintended it's good it was fixed I did notice that 5% meant no where NEAR 5% and I always found that odd so if it's fixed well then fine I'm glad it was fixed.I am going to ask that maybe they change it so that we can proc multiple times on mulit hits again though. I think if they were to maybe say stun poisons can't proc on multi-hits but other procs can maybe things would be evened out more. We wouldn't be super-powered like before but we would be comparable to other T1 classes especially since the weapon speed bug is gone.If that's not an option than I agree all our CAs should be raised in damage if we aren't intended to get 55% of our damage from procs than we need to have an increase in damage to the point where we are intended to be. I think the whole ranger community would be very happy with that. it would save us money and it would mean we were back to T1 DPS. Please do something soon though. Things are pretty ugly out there right now and they really do need to be fixed.I understand that there are other problems that need addressing. Things like zone problems and the like and go ahead and fix those but please try to fix ranger damage as soon as you can. I don't think we can wait for another live update. It's already getting to the point where we can't get groups because we don't do enough damage to be usefull.On a side note does Stream of Arrows count as a multi-hit? Like can we only proc our abilities once in the whole 30 seconds?<div></div><p>Message Edited by TwistedRiddles on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:07 PM</span></p>

[IBSomnifer]

<div></div><div></div><p>No don't thank him for his post....its a BS PR response.  This is something that should have been tested on test....not "looked" at or watched on LIVE.  I'm so sick of your Sh** SoE.  You keep boasting how yall are always "doing this for the best of the game and its players"...and how the money isn't the reason behind certain changes.  The reason all of the Flawed changes go live is because you didn't care ENOUGH to put the game and its players before your deadline/bottom line.  Take the time to make sure its right...you loose plenty of players everytime you do this, and you havn't learned your lesson yet.</p><p>Heres some feedback...put more harvesting nodes in some safe areas.  For the short time i was able to search between zone crashes...I spied far too many nodes guarded by mobs.  Mobs that arn't really soloable now...thanks.   Who knows [Removed for Content] you "intend" for the game anymore cause you change it almost daily...but:</p><p>-If you want us to kite, or be able to, gear our spell lines more towards that for soloability.(arrows while running, traps that work) </p><p> -If you plan on making us solo upclose...increase our melee DPS.  </p><p><strong>-Our bows you have much higher damage rating then they are since they are considered a 2-handed weapon.  a teir 6 rare bow is around 46 damage raiting(same as 1handed mace) while a 2 handed sword or hammer is higher? some of the teir 6 fabled swords were getting up to 70+ damage rating.  Its time to start thinking about it.</strong></p><p><strong>-We should have a lot more choices for bows than 4 at teir 6.  short or long. rare or common.  If you are a ranger...then you have 1 bow to choose from lol.  This goes for all teirs....its sad</strong>.</p><p>Message Edited by IBSomnifer on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:41 PM</span></p>

[Blackguard]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bithnar wrote:<div></div><p>BG I would like to make a suggestion.</p><p>Dont use all Adept 3 skills, because not everyone can aford them or find the rares to have them made.  Use a few sure because we all try to get a few of our more used skills there, but mix em up a few Adept 3's, Adept 1's and App 4's.  Also, not sure how your test character are made, ie where they get their gear, but give yourself coin and then buy poisons and arrows and see how fast you go through the coinage to see what we have to do.  Buy your poisons/arrows from a broker/vendor like we do, dont just "create" them out of thin air.  Using the summoned arrow line is fine though :smileyvery-happy:</p><hr></blockquote>Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire.</span><div></div>

[SIlly Muffin]

<div></div><div><hr></div><p>4. I dont want utility. Yep you heard me, if I wanted utility I would have rolled a bard or rogue class. I want DPS and I want to be matching everyother T1 DPS class.</p><hr><p>I have to disagree a tad here. I think in part it makes sense magic users are a tad ahead - it makes genre sense. The problem in part isnt that rangers dont do DPS its just that we've turned the issue into number a crunching game thats out of whack with the ideal of role of rangers. I think there IS a role for unique utility in the class that would help it maximize the DPS it does have. I am almost thinking that we dont need super DPS as much as we need "smart DPS" in the way of utility - like more roots, stuns and critical hits (ie knockdowns, ripostes and bows in melee). I dont think any fantasy lore even has portayed rangers as wielders of "brutal" damage; but rather as canny fighters who can defeat an opponent using skills and tricks. </p><p>Muffin  </p>

[xentavius]

Looks like they got rid of craftable ap II's... first 3 levels are Ap III with last being ap IV<div></div>

[A]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Some more feedback :</p><p>- The last AA in the agi path reduces casting time of CAs by 35%, <strong>does it mean that with this AA our proc rate will be even lower on CAs</strong> ?</p><p>- I feel with all the others changes there was really no need to make the crippling arrow/debilitating arrow line not work on the move, don't you think enough was done already ?</p><p>- With the proc rate change there is really no need to prevent multi attack CAs to have a chance of a proc at every attack....</p><p>- Watching the AAs I can see how before the changes ranger damage would have been even higher with KoS ( poison crit rate + 74% for example). However was the right way to fix this to reduce rangers damage overall that much or wouldn't have it been better to modify the AAs ?</p><p> </p><p><span class="time_text">Edit : More on AAs</span></p><p><span class="time_text">- The 4th Int line AA when maxed is a 74% chance of critical damage on poison. If in average a critical is double damage ( it can be more or less) and considering that before LU 20 poison was roughly 35% of rangers's damage, that single AA would have boosted ranger dps by roughly 26% ( 35*0.75). I can see how that would be an issue.</span></p><p><span class="time_text">- The 4th Agi Line AA when maxed is a 22% chance of critical damage on ranged attacks. Ranged attacks are roughly 30% of rangers's damage pre LU 20, once again this would have been a 7% damage increase with one AA. Combining both you over 35% dps increase due to those 2 AAs. </span></p><p><span class="time_text">My belief is that AA were not supposed to impact the game that much, instead of modifying AAs so that they have less impact you choose another way, one I believe which was less well thought and creates more issues in the future ( you didn't fix anything regarding to the critical poison AAs, now if you introduce some weapons with a high proc rate so that procs become a high percentage of someone's damage they can once again greatly increase their overall dps by picking that AAs...</span></p><p><span class="time_text">The real big issue is your implementation of a few AAs and then yes the fact that rangers damage needed to be tuned down a little, sadly you failed to see this....</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:59 PM</span></p>

[Runewind]

<div></div>Since BG does appear to be watching this thread I am going to politely ask a question. If rangers are nerfed more than intended (and I suspect they are) how long do you estimate it will be before things are evened out? Just a rough estimate. I'm just worried is all.Also just a sugestion to help your research but when you test out your ranger try to test him/her out in groups with other T1 DPS classes to make a comparison. I think that would be the best way to get good research.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TwistedRiddles on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:20 PM</span></p>

[IBSomnifer]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Ail wrote:<div></div><p>Some more feedback :</p><p>- The last AA in the agi path reduces casting time of CAs by 35%, <strong>does it mean that with this AA our proc rate will be even lower on CAs</strong> ?</p><hr></blockquote>Yea I really had a GOOD HARD laugh at that when i saw it last night.  [Removed for Content] would I want to proc LESS?   I also think they specified that it would only help long cast and recast timers...not short cast time spells.  Things like sniper shot and triple arrow i guess.  Things I barely use anyway.   I also believe there is one that has to do with reducing casting times of spells...not combat arts...I could be mistaken though.  With all the red i'm seeing its hard to focus lol.  The AAs were poorly thought out and generally useless to most classes...i'm glad they are put in thought lol.  Only a few will be usefull to classes.<p>Message Edited by IBSomnifer on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:30 PM</span></p>

[tentim]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<div></div>Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Blackguard on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:03 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>How come you can pay close attention to Rangers and you won't listen to, or even visit the class boards of, other classes. Please go read the Wizard forum.</p><p>I'm not for Ranger nerfing for the record btw - just annyoed that BG yet again pampers fighter classes and totally ignores pure casters (we got stealth nerfed with KoS on our spells, so because they lied about it they won't discuss it)</p><p> </p>

[klepp]

<div></div>lol it dont add up like that... and for the record you only get $$ if you get the killshot.. which isnt very often w/ our dps now..

[klepp]

<div></div>nice post valleyboy

[Star]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Blackguard wrote:</p><p><span>Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire.</span></p><hr></blockquote>This sounds like a good test though BG, maybe earing a bit on the side of under powered compared to the average player. I think it's better to stay on that side and if you maybe can get some of your partners there to make some other classes to grp with and parse. I kid not when I say I was regularly out DPSed by what I whought were Tier 2 classes last night. :smileysad:

[Drevva]

I have only been playing my ranger solo since the changes.  So will keep my comments constrained to that area.I have no desire to be able to solo ^^^ heroics.  But I do want to solo the solo content well and as a dps we should be able to.The changes have force us into a gimpy melee role  when soloing if some of our long recast arts aren't up, and we get the crap beat out of us.Give us the ability to shoot in close range, or give us the ability to root.  I want to be using my bow at least 70% of the fight.   Our combat arts need faster recasts now.  We need an ability to stun a single up ^ for more than 2 secs.Or up our dmg.  If upping our dmg messes up our group /raid dmg then give us point blank shooting ability.  This won't change group/raid parses but will give us some soloing ability,   some faster recasts would help to...If we are going to be forced to pay for our dmg, it should be worth it.  This area does cause some contention.  Should our dmg be better because we pay for it? my thought would be at least a little.I'm disappointed these changes went in with so light thought to solo/small group play.  My confidence in the devs is a bit shaken, but I'm hopefull this gets worked out quickly.

[Guard_Ra]

<div>The game in whole and more specifically Rangers have become way too reliant on poisons and procs for dmg. IMO both do way more dmg then they should and should be reduced to give minor benefits or dmg boosts. However, as many have pointed out our DPS has been reduced dramatically. To bring us back inline where we should be, you should be looking at modifying our CA's raw dmg output, as well in reducing cast and re-use times or both where applicable. </div><div>In the couple hours i was able to play last night, it was a button smash fest hoping i did enough dmg with my opening bow shot so i could grind the mob down.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Bithnar wrote:<div></div><p>BG I would like to make a suggestion.</p><p>Dontuse all Adept 3 skills, because not everyone can aford them or find therares to have them made.  Use a few sure because we all try to geta few of our more used skills there, but mix em up a few Adept 3's,Adept 1's and App 4's.  Also, not sure how your test character aremade, ie where they get their gear, but give yourself coin and then buypoisons and arrows and see how fast you go through the coinage to seewhat we have to do.  Buy your poisons/arrows from a broker/vendorlike we do, dont just "create" them out of thin air.  Using thesummoned arrow line is fine though :smileyvery-happy:</p><hr></blockquote>Sorry,the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything Igive myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. norares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. Imay mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely usingnothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcraftedquality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be toughto simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'mgoing with equipment that anyone could acquire.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>[Removed for Content] good luck with that, I wanna see a fraps video of you taking out some white con mobs...hehe

[kitcabood]

<div>My suggestion would be for a soloing stance.  One that made at least one or two of the ranged attacks castable on the move & added a breakable root/stun that gave us at least a chance of success if we do some fancy footwork!</div><div> </div><div>I solo 99.9% of the time & I really can't do so effectively now post up-date at L51.</div><div> </div><div>I have been running round The Sinking sands since around L48, I'm a regular harvester (i.e., if I see it & no-one else is harvesting it then I do) & I have only found one rare that I could craft an adept out of.  I can't afford to fully up-grade all my equipment to suit turning L50, I just up-graded my chest slot/bow and primary weapon slots to legendary crafted.  T5 poisons but handcrafted & with de-buffs & a stat boosting potion.  I have all skills at at least app IV since I'm a jeweler but I really, really, struggled just now  - one green up arrow add when fighting a blue or green regular mob meant possible death.</div><div> </div><div>Soloing Rangers (as opposed to Rangers doing some soloing) generally can't afford a lot of the more expensive gear or upgrades & don't tend to come by fabled.  having a stance that would drop if the Ranger tried to group or PvP (for balance) would help when it comes to making changes that make soloing possible without over-powering potential in a group.</div><div> </div><div>Of course - from what I hear, the group stuff needs improvement as well but we soloers are <em>really</em> struggling.  I'm not even going to <em>try</em> going to the eye of Anuk for the soloing writs like this!</div><div> </div><div>Oh yes - and imbued rings?  Broken beyond usability.  I get a rare brief stat boost that starts at the end of a fight and ends before I've healed enough to take on anything else and make use of it!  Pretty little flashing icon to watch while I'm healing back from the red after fighting a blue mob though. :smileywink:</div>

[Whytefoxxe]

<div></div><div>Can we please get some sort of affirmation as to what our envisioned role is "supposed" to be? The most frustrating part of this change, and the last ones, is how our class seems to be continually redeisgned, not tweaked or refined. Are we DPS? Are we utility? I don't know, but it is tiresome to continually have to rethink my gear, my CAs, and my group/fighting strategy every 6 months.. much moreso when an expansion comes out and I want to be playing, not relearning a new class.</div><div> </div><div>What is the vision for classes, or is this all ad hoc adjustment born out of afternoon roundtable discussions? Is there any modeling or analysis of data used to calculate damage tiers, or is this try and see?</div><div> </div><div>I may be oversimplifying, but the principle weapon that rangers had prior to this patch was the ability to do a significant amount of damage quickly. The duels that I won were done so only if I could get the stun off and drop a lot of damage. The mobs I soloed or duoed were the ones that I could significantly damage before they ran to me, at which point my rapdily dropping life and meager point-blank dps are all I had to rely upon.</div><div> </div><div>I don't think you can categorize a change in DPS without factoring in time and clustering of damage within that timeframe. For example, a mob that gets "on me" with 50%-40% more life crosses distinctly into the non-killable category. In large groups, DPS clustering isn't as critical (except for aggro management), but it make a dramatic difference in smaller groups or solo. This is every bit as critical as ward vs. immediate heal. Both do the same amounts over time, but the timeframe in which they occur makes all the difference. If healers can be skewed, why can't we?</div><div> </div><div>Adding a flat 30% to all my CAs won't help, since it will be 30% more damage I'll never do becuase I'll already be dead. This is the crux of my point, and in my opinion, the biggest problem with every change in this update: no more moving shots, reduced procs / snares / stream. All of these changes DID reduce our DPS, but more importantly, resulted in mobs with many more HPs getting on top of us because the reduction flattened our DPS curve from high to rapidly low, to a flat line. We cannot tank long enough to kill, nor can we melee fast enough to tank, and since we can't heal or root effectively or hurt significantly with our bow, we are left with no viable strategy. This is one of the big problems that I hope I have managed to explain in a way that it can be understood.</div><div> </div><div>Peronally, I saw our class as defined by the ability to do a lot of damage in a spurt: the triple shot, the stream of arrows (which certainly seems to be slower now too?), the big stealth attacks. Now we just feel luke warm, without direction. If our DPS was too high, please consider lowering it as an aggregate rather than leveling our DPS curve.</div><div> </div>

[Zendy]

<p>Oops, sorry for multple posts.  IE glitch</p><p>Message Edited by Zendy on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:04 PM</span></p>

[Zendy]

<div></div><div></div><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Zendy on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:03 PM</span></p>

[Zendy]

<div></div><p>Once again, it's good to know BG is reading and watching.    As others have stated, please evaluate both group and solo situations.    A lot of rangers I know solo, and that is where the issues lie.     Just try to knock out a few solo writs at each level and you will see the issues.</p><p>1.)    Let me use my bow more.    A root and/or point blank bowshot ability would be very helpful.</p><p>2.)   We have to be able to shoot on the move.</p><p>Thanks!</p>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Blackguard wrote:<p><span>Sorry, the "App III" was a typo and should have read "App II." Everything I give myself is going to be the lower-end tradeskilled gear (i.e. no rares required) or things that can be easily purchased at a merchant. I may mix in Apprentice IV spells as well, but I plan on definitely using nothing Legendary or higher. Poisons, of course, will be Handcrafted quality and I'm only going to use one poison (a DoT). It can be tough to simulate what a character would normally have, which is why I'm going with equipment that anyone could acquire.</span></p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for looking into this and taking some time to investigate the situation firsthand from direct experience. Right now, sadly, rangers don't seem to be much fun - even for those of us who are dedicated to the class and aren't looking to be the best DPS in town. Yes, some of it is the inevitable letdown of coming off such a high pedestal, but I don't even feel like adequate T1 DPS right now.  While you're testing with your own ranger, do us a favor and spend plenty of timing soloing, grouping, and raiding, so you get a picture of how our class performs in each context.</p><p>Is it too much to expect that we might hear back from you after you've spent some time on this? I know a lot of us just want some indication about where our future lies. If this is it, and after testing you determine that we shouldn't require any further changes, people will want to know that so they can make their choices accordingly. If, on the other hand, you conclude that the changes reduced us too far and you plan to give us some help restoring our DPS, please tell us that. You have a lot of people right now who are debating leaving the game, and having some indication that there's a light at the end of the tunnel could motivate them to stick it out.</p><p>A couple suggestions:</p><p>1. Poisons should proc more often than they are currently. We're not seeing the 25% number on standard damage poison; it's looking much less frequent. Can you check into this and verify if that frequency should be increased? Poisons <em>alone</em> (not other procs, just poisons) figured in to about a third of our total damage, pre-LU20. We depend on purchased goods to attain the same DPS as a sorceror of comprable level, so we'd at least like to know that the money we have to spend isn't wasted.</p><p>2. Were the changes to our recast timers intentional? We have several skills with 1-1.5 sec cast timers that are now casting much more slowly, including Stream of Arrows. This change, combined with the proc rate changes, the mult-attack CA changes, the reduction in bow damage, with the reduction in Thorny Trap, and the faster runspeed on all mobs means we have VERY little chance to use our ranged attacks in a solo capacity. We can't have our primary skills be relegated to one shot on the pull before we're stuck in frontal melee. We're predators, we rely on ranged attacks, and the aggregate affect of these changes is forcing us way outside our role.</p><p>3. Are Quick Shot procs still able to proc poison or Gleaming Strike? If not, why not? I thought the whole point of Quick Shot was adding an extra arrow attack b/w other ranged shots.</p><p>4. The overall design changes seem to suggest that we're supposed to rely on ranged autoattack more frequently, but we can't summon tier-appropriate arrows. We're now stuck in a situation where we really NEED to buy top of the line poison, so having to purchase crafted or vendor arrows on top of that is real insult to injury. No other class is stuck in a situation of having to repeatedly pay for their damage.</p><p>Thanks for listening, I really hope you'll keep us posted. Communication is very rarely a bad thing, and it will head off a lot of angst and frustration if you just tell us what you find, and what you have planned as a result. Thanks again.</p>

[curtlewis]

Blackguard,Thanks for taking a look at Rangers. Once you're done with that, could you do some raiding as a Wizard and Warlock and have the mechanics team look into our inferior damage capability? I know all us frustrated Sorcerors would appreciate the attention.I know you guys are swamped with a million things to do, especially with the new expansion (which is really cool, btw), but we've been underpowered since last September and it sure would be nice to be doing the Tier 1 DPS level of damage that we're intended to do.Thanks!

[Sapperlight]

<div></div><div>Some thoughts based on beta and Live play with the changes:</div><div> </div><div>-DPS was noticeably lower.  I didn't parse the data, since most of my effective parses come from single target raid mobs.</div><div> </div><div>-When using Natural Selection or Storm of Arrows on a group of 5 mobs, I could count on poison proc'ing on 3-5.  Now, I get 0-2, usually 1.  In four hours of play last night, I used less than 100 proc's on my poison, when normally in that time I would have used 2-3 charges (400-600).</div><div> </div><div>-I can kill no or down arrow solo mobs solo, even up to yellow if I use traps and debilitating or snaring shot.  However, this requires ample room and no adds.  However, I have the advantage of a good guild in which I have all adept IIIs or masters for ranged CAs and most melee CAs.  My gear is legendary-equivalent or fabled, with fabled melee weapons.  This is NOT a typical setup, especially for a soloer.</div><div> </div><div>-I only remember my imbued ring proc'ing twice in about two hours, after which I just replaced it.</div><div> </div><div>-I'm unsure as to the reason for the drop in effectiveness for Primal Agility.  With lower DPS, though, it may not be an issue...</div><div> </div><div>-I could still shoot on the move with Storm of Arrows and Natural Selection, but the loss of Debilitating is tough.</div><div> </div><div>My recommendations mirror those mentioned above, namely, increased damage on CAs, a point blank bow CA, and a return of the old stun length.</div><p>Message Edited by Sapperlight on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:19 PM</span></p>

[Carna]

<div></div><p><strong>Please investigate the parry rate of ranged CAs</strong>, I think they might be significantly higher than the parry rate of melee CAs... parrying of ranged CAs have a massive bearing now on soloing viability of Rangers. If a Rangers opening salvo of CAs land as the mob rushes in, the fight is viable. If these opening shots don't land he's looking at straight up meleeing or kiting.... the class is not tuned to be meleeing, and kiting is not an activity the design team build around, moreso it's an activity actively combated by the design team. If they are going to continue to do so, they must make viable the Rangers other options.</p>

[Phidget]

<div></div><p>Blackguard,</p><p>If you plan to test rangers with real world items, why not clone copies of existing characters to play, that way you do have the same spells/items that someone would have. </p>

[StealthM0]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:Please dont ask for more melee skills <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We're rangers bro, if people want to do T1 DPS with a sword then go a Assasin.<hr></blockquote><p>I'd like to ask who this is directed to?</p><p>If it is myself, I am not asking for melee skills. I am asking for a review of imbued rings, summon arrow lines, moving bow ca's (non-existent post lu20 presently), and quiver stats. I agree we are not intended as a melee class.</p>

[StealthM0]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>SIlly Muffin wrote:<div></div><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Ranger Proposals (to get us back to T1 DPS) – Rough suggestions ONLY</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span></span></font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">2. If we have to pay for DPS allow us some sort of monetary compensation elsewhere. Perhaps the ability to forage half-decent foods in the wild. Again, not on par with the <span> </span></font></font></span><span><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">provisioner foods, but again, tear appropriate functional foods. Perhaps the ability to use raws, in part, <span> </span>as a food substitute</font></font></span></p><hr></blockquote>your first AA does that for you.. gives you 2-8 silver every 5 mins while fighting... it add sup</span></div><hr></blockquote><blockquote>Erm, and to those that don't own KoS? What of them? Leave them in the dust with no AA's?</blockquote>

[smoody]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<div></div>Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Blackguard on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:03 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>It's good you guys are looking at them. Please look at the parses from last night! I was consistently outperformed by a similarly equiped Swashbuckler who shouldn't even be close to me and I have a much better equipped toon than what you are describing. I lost 5 out of every 7 DPS races last night.</p><p>From examining the logs with the Advanced Combat Tracker, the biggest difference I see is the number of misses for ranged compared to melee skills.</p><p>Poison damage seemed to be inline with that of the swashi which I would expect. However, my CA damage and auto-attack damage needs improving to keep me in T1 DPS.</p><p>Thorny trap breaks on any damage so it is only moderately useful for soloing. Could this possibly be changed so that poison DoT's don't break it? That would help a little with the grouped mobs which are difficult for us anyway while still letting us use our AoE's for openers since they provide a lot of damage.</p><p>Fredethel</p><p> </p>

[AfflictedOne]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<div></div>Thanks for putting together a thread for constructive Ranger feedback. We are paying close attention to ensure Rangers are fun and will make changes if necessary. I'm even planning on trying a Ranger out with handcrafted gear and App II spells at every 10 level range to check them out. I may not have a Ranger on Live, but I've played pretty much every class in some form so I have an idea of how they work. I'll be discussing my findings with Design afterwards. Of course, I'm not the only one looking at them closely--the mechanics team is as well.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Blackguard on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:03 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Thanks for looking into this.  One thing I want to put out there tho.  Right now I can still solo mobs that are meant to be soloed.  Sure it's a bit slower than before but can do it fairly easy.  The real problem comes from the fact that our dps is very low.  It really doesn't matter how well we solo if we still do T3-4 damage in groups and raids.  I think if you do some serious parsing you will find that in groups/raids most of the T1 dps classes are overshadowed by the T2 classes in dps now.   Heck I was consistantly being beated by T3-4 classes in the last days of beta and more than doubled by some of the T2 classes.  So you really need to look at this from all sides and not just say that as a class rangers can solo cause there's much more to the game than soloing.Some ideas to put us back up where we are sup'd to be.1. Increase in combat art damage.2. Slightly shorter recast on a few of the ranged arts.3. The makeshift arrow line needs to give at least 99 arrows at M1.  The 60 would have been really nice before ranger was made almost entirely ranged but now can go through way more than 60 every 10 mins.  I've actually came out of 2-3 hour raids and used almost 30 stacks.4. Bow arts that can be used point-blank would be very nice as well.5. Focus Aim line - something really needs to be done with this line.  It's a ranged autoattack buff.  But only lasts 10 seconds.  Best case it works for two autoattacks which usually one or both miss.  Either make it 60 secs or make it concentration and lower damage increase or something.  Well really almost anything would be better than what it currently is.6. Imbued strength rings.  Currently ranger is the only scout class that gets zero use from the proc on these.  A nice fix would be changing them to proc also on ranged attack.  Even if the proc rate for ranged has to be reduced from what it is for melee at least then we'd have a chance of getting a proc whereas currently we don't.</span><div></div>

[theshaneman9]

Dear Developers,I understand we had to be nerfed. It was inevitable. However I do think the nerf was extreme. Through my parser looking at before and after, i had my DPS cut by 50%!!!That being said, lets get to work on re balancing the ranger class. While I understand that the nerf on poisons was logical - after all it is kind of impossible to poison something 4 times in a row, if a rattlesnake bites you 4 times in a row, you dont get re poisoned each time - There needs to be a fix on the nerf of our offensive stance. This stance should be able to proc multiple times, as if you look at it, quick shot is getting in another shot, that can be done more than once per CA.Secondly, in an effort to even out or DPS situation, melee weapon procs should be brought back. that only accounted for 10% of our damage before it was nerfed, and i our dps definately needs to be brough back by more than 10%.The bottom line is our DPS was cut to half of what it was, and needs to be re balanced. While we did need to be nerfed, this is very extreme, and I have talked to a few rangers who are quitting the game because of it , and will not come back until it is fixed. IHaving said that, lets take a look at some alternatives to bring rangers back to at least a top 4 DPS class, where they rightly should be due to their lack of group utility.Thanks for reading.<div></div>

[Zaviur]

<div></div>You know it's the procs that SoE can't seem to get a handle on.  They are trying to balance this game according to what a few well geared raiders can do.  If they want to tone down the proc damage that we do then up the Skill damage to put us back in T1 where we belong.

[kartikeya]

<div>I did a lot more soloing today, now that the servers were (somewhat) more stable.</div><div> </div><div>The bottom line seems to be we are now absolutely reliant on the Random Number Generator.</div><div> </div><div>In a fight, if I procced one or two times, things were fine (especially if it was poison that went off.) If I didn't proc, I was being beaten into the red rather consistently, and I lost more than a few fights against mobs that shouldn't be putting up such a struggle (solo tagged mobs two, three levels under me even.) All of my fights were against mobs that were tagged as solo, most of which being at most only one level higher than I was. Casters and other scouts (not rangers) fighting near me were mowing through the mobs, while I generally had to stop and heal up between each and every fight (again, unless I procc'd.) Any solo tagged mob that also has a single ^ arrow was beating me, and beating me soundly, right into the ground. I simply couldn't put out enough damage fast enough to take them down, and trying to kite usually resulted in adds and a swift death.</div><div> </div><div>Level 60 ranger, legendary crafted armor and weapons, mostly adept 1 CAs, legendary rare poisons, have soloed most of my leveling career. Twas very, very frustrating. Thank you for looking into this, BG.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Stormykat]

It's rather annoying for other classes to come to the Ranger boards and ask BG to go look at their classes, it derails the thread.My DPS has been cut back drastically. Almost to the point of being pre LU13 <shudder>. As a ranger, I rely on being able to keep the mob away from me so I can use my ranged attacks, with my stun poison not procing very often now, that's extremely difficult. It's a toss up on whether I will survive a blue con ^ mob. For the record, I don't believe stun poisons were overpowered, they were a useful tool if you could afford them, or had an alchemist tradeskiller alt or friend. They also ran out quickly and didn't guarantee a win over any heroic mob.My archers frenzy isn't much of a frenzy anymore. I think that in all honesty our procs need to be restored to where they were. If you need to reduce any dmg, reduce dmg slightly on poisons or reduce the dmg amount on the arrow frenzy proc.Many other classes don't see that rangers are your friend in groups and in raids. We work together with wizards to do top DPS, wizards giving us that nice STR buff, Illusionists giving us that nice dynamism. We bring the mob down quickly and in sticky situations on heroic mobs we can keep the mob stunned for some of the time therefore reducing the dmg on the tank.Another constructive suggestion regarding rangers, please give us a summon arrows spell for tier 6 that summons indium arrows.<div></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Stormykat wrote:My archers frenzy isn't much of a frenzy anymore.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>BWAHAHAHA!!!!</p><p>Omg, that killed me... thanks Lilae. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> BTW welcome to the server, hope to see you in-game sometime soon.</p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div></div><div></div><p>Sirs;</p><p>It seems to me that the fundamental problem lies in the fact that changes were made for this class, based almost exclusively on the performance of the highest level Rangers in legendary gear, with (at least) Master level 1 CA's, in a raid or group setting.</p><p>There is a world of difference in what THAT Ranger can do, and what my 41st level Ranger in second hand gear, with Adept 1 Ca's, fighting solo can do.</p><p>Your changes may bring that top end Ranger into line with what you think he should be, but what about the rest of us?</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:35 PM</span></p>

[Sirlutt]

its so simple to fix..remove the min range on our ranged CA's.  Keep the positional requirements, and leave SoA having a min range.This would only affect solo, no one gets up close in raids anyhow..<div></div>

[AfflictedOne]

Just wanted to add something to my above list7.  Give us a stun that lasts longer than 1 sec.  Didn't see those changed till I logged in just now and this is really gonna kill soloing since we have 2 melee attacks that aren't either positional or dots.  It's impossible to stun and do ranged attack or get into positional attack with only 1 second stuns.<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>smoody wrote:<div></div><p>It's good you guys are looking at them. Please look at the parses from last night! I was consistently outperformed by a similarly equiped <strong>Swashbuckler who shouldn't even be close to me</strong> and I have a much better equipped toon than what you are describing. I lost 5 out of every 7 DPS races last night.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I've been very supportive of Ranger before and through this nerf in the interest of some sort of Scout solidarity, but I take issue with the above comment. Rangers should be a tier above Rogues, not in a different place entirely. Insofar as the tiers adjoin, yes some Rogues will be close to some Predators in the same way that some Brawlers will be close to some Rogues as they are a tier under them.</p><p>The nerf was outrageous, horribly executed and needs to be fixed asap; but some Rangers need to adjust their expectations as to where they fit in the order of things... Tier 1 with viable soloability and group contribution, not Tier 0 with a game mechanic all their own... Swashbucklers and Brigands are primarily a dps class also. They're simply a tier bellow you in the same way that Brawlers are merely a tier bellow them.</p>

[Runewind]

<span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>smoody wrote:<div></div><p>It's good you guys are looking at them. Please look at the parses from last night! I was consistently outperformed by a similarly equiped <strong>Swashbuckler who shouldn't even be close to me</strong> and I have a much better equipped toon than what you are describing. I lost 5 out of every 7 DPS races last night.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I've been very supportive of Ranger before and through this nerf in the interest of some sort of Scout solidarity, but I take issue with the above comment. Rangers should be a tier above Rogues, not in a different place entirely. Insofar as the tiers adjoin, yes some Rogues will be close to some Predators in the same way that some Brawlers will be close to some Rogues as they are a tier under them.</p><p>The nerf was outrageous, horribly executed and needs to be fixed asap; but some Rangers need to adjust their expectations as to where they fit in the order of things... Tier 1 with viable soloability and group contribution, not Tier 0 with a game mechanic all their own... Swashbucklers and Brigands are primarily a dps class also. They're simply a tier bellow you in the same way that Brawlers are merely a tier bellow them.</p><hr></blockquote>I don't think he meant that as an attack against swashbucklers. It's nice to have support from other classes so devs know it's not just rangers who this this is extreme. You're right you can be close to us in damage but if similarly equipped with similar skill you shouldn't outdamage us. I think that's what he was getting at.</span><div></div>

[Day]

<div></div><div>Here's my info overthe last few days, I'm a 60 Ranger with Most Bow skills master 1 and all other skills Adept 3. The day before KoS was launched (monday) I was groups with a Berserker and Inquisitor killing Cyclops' in PoF to remove some debt. My STR was at 355, 64 below max. My parse was on average about 900-1100 dps, all bow skills master 1 except for amazing shot, and sniper's (which I didn't use at all), everything else was adept 3. Yesterday I went there again in a full group this time, with a Mystic, Guardian, Berserker, Warden and Dirge. My parse was on average 400-600 dps (max str btw). Non-stop pulling would often use up a charge of poison within 10 minutes before the nerf, now it takes around 2 hours for a charge to wear off in the same setup. With Archer's Frenzy Master 1, and Adeste's procs used to be about 45-55% of my damage. Losing 90% of the procs has reduced my damage by around half. If you also haven't noticed, the stun on sniper's was reduced to 1 sec when it was previously 4, cheap shot has been reduced to 1 sec as well. I also grouped in a 4 man group with a guard, brig, warden and myself. On average I was getting out DPS'd by the brig by about 50-100dps, which is total BS as the brig only had 2 master 1's and the majority of his skills being adept1. and a handful of adept 3's.</div><div> </div><div>WIth that info, here are the major issues that I feel need to be addressed:</div><div> </div><div>1. Bow atk rating is extremely lower to any other weap, except when using 1 dual wielder. My normal attack rating is 1100-1200, if I go into ranged auto-attack then it drops to 500-600, which is equal to having 1 dual wield equiped. This should explain why our ranged attacks get avoided a lot more than our melee.</div><div> </div><div>2. As mentioned before Bows are considered as 2 handers but have the damage rating of a 1-hander and the atk rating of 1 dual wield (as stated above).</div><div> </div><div>3. Now that we don't have the procs, out combat art damage needs to be increased by abour 30-50% in order to be able to hold a candle to our assassin counter parts as they are still parsing over 700-900 dps (good assassins at least).</div><div> </div><div>4. Our ranged combat arts need reduced casting times so that we may actually get more auto attacks in, they is also in correlation to #3 as the lower the ranged combat art casting time, the lower the need for a heavy damage increase in them. ie. If you reduced the ranged combat art casting time by 1/3 then the adjustment to their damge would need to be around 25-35% instead.</div><div> </div><div>5. If you want us to depend more on ranged auto-attack, then make the better arrows more affordable or make a major increase in our makeshift arrow line. Indium arrows are costing me over 1p after grinding for 8+ hours and that's after all the coin I make from adventuring and using backup quiver master 1 (60 arrows every 10 mins) as much as possible. Meaning that I lose a large amount of coin on arrows from just grinding.</div><div> </div><div>6. Fix it so that we may be able to use our bow more often while soloing. Now that sniper's shot and cheap shot stuns are 1 sec only and Debilitating Arrow no longer able to be used while moving, it makes it near impossible to use our bow solo. Even with the trap, we might only get 1 to 3 ranged combat arts in before we have to go full melee. We can no longer cheap shot, take a step back and precise shot due to the fact that cheap shot is now 1 sec. Also, the point blank shot aa is now useless since its stun was reduced to 1 sec when it was previously 4. It's just another melee combat art that wastes an arrow now.</div>

[smoody]

<div></div><p>My comment certainly wasn't meant as an attack on Swashbucklers. One of my group members is a swashbuckler and a very good one. Based on information provided by SOE, it is reasonable for me to expect a higher DPS total than a swashbuckler. Last night, that wasn't the case. In spite of me doing everything I could, he was ahead of me in DPS in most fights. Blackguard indicated that if the changes moved us from the T1 DPS position, they would take a look at it. I'm telling them that I am no longer in T1 and asking that they look at it quickly. I don't have to do twice the DPS of anyone else to be happy. But I would expect to consistently see 100-150 above that of the swashi. Call me crazy. I certainly didn't mean to insult the swashbuckler community.</p><p>Fredethel</p>

[Kamon2]

<div></div><div></div>i dont see why rangers are so intend on having 1/2 their dmg coming from poisons procs(queynos class baseing their damage on poisons???) the poison procs should be seen as icing on the cake for this class.raw dps should be upped for CA and auto attacks....especially the long recast nuke spellsstr affects theyre dps. but preds are an agility based class...why not make agility affect theyre crittical strikes?ex: high agi, avg str= moderate reg damage but massively high critticals when they accuror: avg agi, high str= high susttained CA/auto attack dps, avg/low critticals(offensive stances should also affect crittical strikes)dont rangers have roots? if theyre broken, fix em....rangers have slightly better one-on-one mage like melee skills which is pretty sad...point blank shot sounds like a great idea, although there should be a slight penalty on the damage a CA can do point blankon a side note, i would like to welcome all you rangers back to the [Removed for Content] club, car pool stickers are limited so first come first serve. Also, please wear a name tag for the first few weeks. <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Kamon211 on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:09 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Kamon211 on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:10 PM</span></p>

[kartikeya]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kamon211 wrote:<div></div><div></div>i dont see why rangers are so intend on having 1/2 their dmg coming from poisons procs(queynos class baseing their damage on poisons???) the poison procs should be seen as icing on the cake for this class.raw dps should be upped for CA and auto attacks....especially the long recast nuke spellsstr affects theyre dps. but preds are an agility based class...why not make agility affect theyre crittical strikes?ex: high agi, avg str= moderate reg damage but massively high critticals when they accuror: avg agi, high str= high susttained CA/auto attack dps, avg/low critticals(offensive stances should also affect crittical strikes)dont rangers have roots? if theyre broken, fix em....rangers have slightly better one-on-one mage like melee skills which is pretty sad...point blank shot sounds like a great idea, although there should be a slight penalty on the damage a CA can do point blankon a side note, i would like to welcome all you rangers back to the [Removed for Content] club, car pool stickers are limited so first come first serve. Also, please wear a name tag for the first few weeks. <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Kamon211 on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:09 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Kamon211 on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:10 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I tend to agree. I have <em>never</em> been happy with how much of our performance depends entirely on random procs. Especially now, when it really is random and the outcome of a fight varies so drastically depending on whether I proc or not. (I don't have a problem with the poison thing, rangers aren't paladins, after all. Fair play isn't something we have the luxury of depending on.)</p><p>As for roots...not really. We do have one, but it's a trap. We have to lay it beforehand, it has a three minute recast, and while it is nice, I certainly don't want to have to wait three minutes between every fight. Also, root breaks on damage quite often, which means we might get in one extra bowshot, but then we're right back to where we were. Some mobs just mow through it without slowing too.</p><p> </p>

[Rhyls]

"i dont see why rangers are so intend on having 1/2 their dmg coming from poisons procs(queynos class baseing their damage on poisons???) the poison procs should be seen as icing on the cake for this class."Perhaps the most profound thing said in the last few days.  I really wouldn't give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if they got rid of poisons completely and upped scout CA damage.  Not sure most rangers would know what to do with the extra cash.<div></div>

[Bayler_x]

   Kamon211 wrote:   i dont see why rangers are so intend on having 1/2 their dmg coming from poisons procs(queynos class baseing their damage on poisons???) the poison procs should be seen as icing on the cake for this class.It's not that we necessarily want 1/2 our damage to be coming from procs.  In fact, we'd like an opportunity for other things to come into play more.  It's that several times our class has been balanced (albeit not too precisely) around these mechanics.  We have relied on them, not just to do the over-the-top damage that we used to do, but to fulfil the role of damage dealer at all.Many rangers would have welcomed the concept of a change to proc mechanics, if it had been handled well.  But it was NOT handled well.  The devs called it a bug and called us exploiters.  They were dismissive in the face of our concerns and demonstrated an ignorance of the repercussions of the change.  They allowed only a few days to test a major change to the heart of the game, in an environment that was set up only to test end-game raid-focused content, and told us that according to their data rangers were performing just fine.A change to the proc mechanics *is* important for the health of the game.  But it's something that should have been done slowly and carefully.  And it should have been done in collaboration with the ranger community (and the player community in general).  It should have been done with an understanding that other changes would need to happen to compensate.The changes are now in place, and there's no point in asking the devs to put it back the way it was.  The only constructive thing to do now is communicate to the devs what the situation is, what we feel needs to be changed, and most importantly, what we want from our class.When reevaluating the ranger class, here are the things we want out of our class, apart from the basic scout qualities:1.  We want our combat to mostly be done through archery.  (There are some who argue that rangers and archery aren't necessarily synonymous, but I dare say it's the central quality that drew most of us to the class.)2.  We want to be a viable part of groups and raids, principally as damage dealers; we want to do similar damage to the other top damage dealers, and noticeably - but not overwhelmingly - more than other classes who offer more utility.  Note that this implies that the other top damage dealers need to be in balance already.  (Some rangers, myself included, wouldn't mind seeing a reduction in our damage role if it meant an increase in the utility we offer.  But I think most rangers prefer being damage oriented.  And that's certainly the way the class has been geared up until now.)3.  We want to be highly self sufficient: able to explore, harvest, quest, etc., pretty well solo.  And when we do fight solo, we want archery to be our main way of doing it.  (Suggestions on how to accomplish that are: give us a root; make our snares more effective and less likely to break; give us an archery stun that can be used fairly often; and/or removing the minimum range requirement on archery.  Some have suggesting making us into a tank class, too, but I think the majority of rangers are against the idea.)4.  We don't want to have to pay large amounts of money for expendables in order to keep up with other classes who have no such expenses.

[xfres]

<div>Its good to be positive, but if they do accept any proposed changes when will they actually implement them?  My guess is after its too late.  Good luck.</div>

[Fromingo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>bentgate wrote:<div></div><div></div><div> </div><div>5. Another debuff that debuffs melee skills so we have a chance to survive when going melee with mobs.</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>Heh my Dirge could use this too?  :smileywink:  Hell I'll just take a self only buff that doesn't use concentration.  :smileysad:</p><p>Seriously if you're going to even consider giving Rangers the ability to tank mobs more than they already have(seen non grouped Rangers with 70+ avoidance) then kick some of that same love down to the rest of us scouts.    I think Predators are a bit spoiled when they are the only scout I know who can get 70+% avoidance solo and still complain they need more to be able to "melee with mobs"  i.e. tank. </p><p>And believe my I feel your DPS/proc pains rangers I have a high lvl bruiser who got incidental damage from your recent nerf bat.</p><p> </p>

[paintch]

<div></div><p>I think that an easy way to fix our dps problem would not be to increase our CA dmg but to add 1 or 2 more bow CA's and take away 1 or 2 of the melee ones. This would increase dps also making us proc a little more, keeping poisons usefull the way that they are procing now. I am only a lvl 40 ranger but i know that i run out of bow CA's in alot of fights and run in to melee until they pop back up again.</p><p>Also i see alot of wiz/warlocks complaining about them running out of power faster then us( which i have to say does seem to happen) adding more bow CA's would make us go through our power faster.</p><p>As for soloing being able to use our bows at close range would i think work best since our bow CA's are our primary source of dmg however since that might make us overpowered at close range some, decrease the chance of being able to land a hit with a bow when the mob is within melee range, would i think take care of that plus it makes sense realistically as well.</p><p>These 2 changes i think would bring us to the same lvl as wizzies and warlocks and stifle alot of their complaints if they see us going oop as much as they seem to do.</p><p>I know i am only lvl 40 and not sure if this goes the same for end game as a ranger but just my hopefull helpful info.</p><p>later</p><p> </p>

[Tarryn]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fromingo wrote:<div></div><p>Seriously if you're going to even consider giving Rangers the ability to tank mobs more than they already have(seen non grouped Rangers with 70+ avoidance) then kick some of that same love down to the rest of us scouts.    I think Predators are a bit spoiled when they are the only scout I know who can get 70+% avoidance solo and still complain they need more to be able to "melee with mobs"  i.e. tank. </p><hr></blockquote><div>Point being that many of our attacks cannot even be used except from range.  Since we can't frontload our damage with the opening barrage like before, we have to tank the mob much longer with our comparatively feeble melee skills.  Consequently, we're spending a lot more time toe to toe with the mob, but without any compensating defense.</div><div> </div><div>Basically, whilst soloing, we're now a rogue class--except with fewer useable attacks, doing less damage, with fewer melee buffs and far fewer debuffs.  Not a recipe for success.</div>

[klepp]

<div></div>how do you think i feel? my archers frenzy i just bought the master 1 lol.  And i dont understand how they are balancing us by our poisons damage ffs.  We pay for that, it hsould put us above and beyond.  they are now Forcing everyone to use poison.  Which we all kno0w isnt cheap.  So if we have to buy our dps, shouldnt we be  better at it than most?  I wonder how the soe train of thought works... sriously..

[SpookyDuke]

<div></div><p>It's my belief that the changes made to the ranger class were in large part due to the need to balance PvP combat. My suggestion is that the changes be applicable to PvP servers only, if possible. Damage is the only thing I bring to a group or raid in PvE. Thanks for looking at our posts.</p><p>Laand</p><p>55 ranger</p>

[Billibub]

Blackguard,Please pay special attention to what Dayam posted, his comments are dead on.I have been playing my Ranger since the day of release in Nov. 2004, I have raided pretty much all content up to KoS, save for Djinn Prism.I've rode out the downs, enjoyed the ups, and now am grieving for what our class has become after LU20.I wish I had time right now to go take some parses and analyze what they mean to my class but I can't at the moment.What I can say is that in an experience group last night. I was only about 90 DPS higher than our Troubador.....which correct me if I am wrong is a T3 damage class?I'm glad you are looking into our class issues as the proc changes have had a much more drastic impact than you all had planned on I believe.I will try to take some parses tonight and post some charts and graphs in this thread at a later date.<div></div>

[Zodi]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>bentgate wrote:<div></div><div></div><div>Jay beat me to one of my posts and he brings up several good points in his. Are we able to do our job effectively? I want to keep this thread focused on the changes that we need to help do our jobs effectively. Remember the proc changes are here to stay so saying stuff like go back to the old way is not going to cut it. I want constructive and creative ideas on things SOE can do to bring us back up to our T1 status and also help us solo effectively. Ony constructive feedback please, becasue as Jay said, if you want to whine and complain there are a ton of other thread out there already (and it is ok to whine and complain. We all need to vent).</div><div> </div><div>OK with that said, here are several things I think we can use to make us more effective.</div><div> </div><div>1. An increase in damage on all of our ranged CAs of about 20%-40%</div><div><font color="#ffff00">Dont you guys are the in the 1ST tier DPS already? Maybe I am wrong, but I thought the rangers were the king of DPS. Why is the need of mroe damage? just for the sake of doing more damage or there was serious nerfed?</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div>2. Maybe one or two more frontal melee attacks that do significant amount of damage</div><div><font color="#ffff00">Aint the ranger actual specility ranged attacked where they are out harms way? Maybe a cool fix for this is stances: ranged stance and Meele stances</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div>3. A root or snare that actually works to keep the mob off of us so we can use our bow CAs while solo</div><div><font color="#ffff00">No comment</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div>4. A stun that works on ^ mobs as well as no arrow mobs. I think Swashies have this already.</div><div><font color="#ffff00">Swashies are 2ND tier DPS. They opted to sacrifice their DPS to have more utility.  Do you think it is fair for you to have the bet of both worlds?</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div>5. Another debuff that debuffs melee skills so we have a chance to survive when going melee with mobs.</div><div><font color="#ffff00">What type of mobs are we talkign about? Heroics ^^^? My guild rangers can solo some of this already? </font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div><div>6. Point blank shot skill. The higher the skill the less interrupts and misses we would have. The lower the skill the easier it would be for us to get interrupted. Also, factors in the amount of damage we take in factoring interrupts.</div><div>7. giev us the ability to summon appropriate level arrows to fill the whole quiver, not just a few arrow.  Wtih the new importance of auto-attack  and haste this sounds like a good idea</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Those are a couple of the top of my head. As good ones are posted I will keep updating this thread. Hopefully, we can get some good ideas and some feedback as to whether we are on the right track.</div><div> </div><div>Elbryan60 Ranger</div><p>Message Edited by bentgate on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:55 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by bentgate on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:10 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>

[SIlly Muffin]

<div></div><hr><div>4. A stun that works on ^ mobs as well as no arrow mobs. I think Swashies have this already.</div><div><font color="#ffff00">Swashies are 2ND tier DPS. They opted to sacrifice their DPS to have more utility.  Do you think it is fair for you to have the bet of both worlds </font><hr></div><p>No we are NOT asking for both. Post LU 20 we have neither - nerither T1 DPS nor any real utility. Do you think its fair for us to have none of both worlds? </p><p>muffin </p>

[Zodi]

<div></div><div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>valleyboy1 wrote:Ok i'll give this a go.Core elements that need to be addressed.1. Damage - If a wizard is going to be tossing out Ice Nova and Ball of Lava hitting for 3.5k and 8k damage each then we need CA's to do similar damage. Our combat arts are woefully inadequate at present. Compare the tier 7 wizard spells to the ranger CA's. This would not have been a issue if we had our procs, but without them you will see how gimped the class is at present. <font color="#ffff00">(Why you feel you need to compare yourself againts wizards? From what I have seen the bottom line DPS the rangers comes out as the clear winner)</font></p><p>2. If we cant rely on posions to proc and procs in general then factoring them into the equation of our DPS shouldnt be done.3. Rangers want to use a bow, we are not assasins, we do not want to be face to face with the mobs 99% of the time. We need a root like a wizard would have. The proc change has hurt rangers soloing because all rangers who knew what they were doing used a stun potion to solo.4. I dont want utility. Yep you heard me, if I wanted utility I would have rolled a bard or rogue class. I want DPS and I want to be matching everyother T1 DPS class. <font color="#ffff00">YOU ALREADY PART OF THE TIER 1 DPS. DO YOU WANT TO BE THE KING OF IT? </font>5. Speed. To put it bluntly rangers are totally and utterly annoyed by this entire debacle, something needs to be done as soon as possible.<font color="#ffff00">  WHATS THE PROBLEM?</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[SIlly Muffin]

<div></div><p>Zodian,</p><p>With all due respect - how recent are the parses/data you are drawing your conclusion from. I have even had comments on my now-low DPS output from groupies who were not even parsing - it was THAT evident. Even my wizard friends are flabbergasted that our DPS has dropped so much.</p><p>From the Ranger standpoint. Yes we were t1 DPS. Indeed, by the numbers alone were WERE T0 DPS before Lu 20. Yet now we are t2 at best.</p><p>muffin</p>

[LoreLady]

<hr width="100%" size="2">1. Damage - If a wizard is going to be tossing out Ice Nova and Ball of Lava hitting for 3.5k and 8k damage each then we need CA's to do similar damage. Our combat arts are woefully inadequate at present. Compare the tier 7 wizard spells to the ranger CA's. This would not have been a issue if we had our procs, but without them you will see how gimped the class is at present. <font color="#ffff00">(Why you feel you need to compare yourself againts wizards? From what I have seen the bottom line DPS the rangers comes out as the clear winner)</font><hr width="100%" size="2">Because we have to compare against the other t1 dps, you dont realize that currently we are doing t2-t3 dps currently. You dont seem to realize that we have to pay for our poisons, you dont seem to realize that our only utility (aside from disarm, and track) we have to buy. You dont seem to realize the problem.Our damage should be the same as warlocks/wizards WITHOUT using poisons, go ahead and nurf poison abit. Mages are multi target dps, preds are single target dps. Currently mages have the best of all 3 worlds, utility, multi target, single target, without having to spend a copper. Rangers have no utility, no single target dps, no multi target dps.The next freaking person I hear that makes that kind of statement should be removed from the gene pool. Before you post, look into what you are posting.Anyone who wish's to debate me further please PM me, message here. I will be HAPPY to debate you and ge my point across and challenge other people. But look into the other side before you post.

[illum]

<div>If you check Zodian's other posts on the ranger boards, you'll notice comments that all people should share DPS and no one should be the best anything...I almost felt his statement said there should be no real difference between the classes.  It's quite possible he's here just to enjoy the eye candy and doesn't understand the concept of designated rolls stated by SOE...such as predators are supposed to be tier1 DPS...ie, cannot be out DPS'd by a tank lol :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[Guy De Alsace]

I think we need our dps to be slightly over Warlocks and Wizards. Not vastly over, maybe 5-10% more on average given the fact we have nothing else to bring to a group. Personally speaking I think we should be restricted to leather armour but have more ways of keeping the enemy at range rather than forcing us to melee in chain.I'm hearing stories of Furies soloing the lvl 66 and 67 critters in the bonemire relatively easily. I know our Warden comfortably can kill lvl 65's. I can do 61 max and thats a major risk. Blue up-arrows at most.When I was grouping up I was seeing so many of my bow CA's being parried I ended up using melee, it was more efficient than using my bow.<div></div>

[Tarryn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Guy De Alsace wrote:I think we need our dps to be slightly over Warlocks and Wizards. Not vastly over, maybe 5-10% more on average given the fact we have nothing else to bring to a group. Personally speaking I think we should be restricted to leather armour but have more ways of keeping the enemy at range rather than forcing us to melee in chain.I'm hearing stories of Furies soloing the lvl 66 and 67 critters in the bonemire relatively easily. I know our Warden comfortably can kill lvl 65's. I can do 61 max and thats a major risk. Blue up-arrows at most.When I was grouping up I was seeing so many of my bow CA's being parried I ended up using melee, it was more efficient than using my bow.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't believe we need to be over sorcerers or assassins on any kind of consistent basis.  I want to be <em>equivalent</em> to sorcerers and assassins, with the top spot switching around with random or situational factors.  That's what Tier 1 was supposed to be, and I hold SoE to their word on that.</p><p>Wizzies alone aren't DPS kings.  Wizzies, Rangers, Warlocks, and Assassins should all be DPS kings--kings at a round table.</p>

[Guy De Alsace]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tarryn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Guy De Alsace wrote:I think we need our dps to be slightly over Warlocks and Wizards. Not vastly over, maybe 5-10% more on average given the fact we have nothing else to bring to a group. Personally speaking I think we should be restricted to leather armour but have more ways of keeping the enemy at range rather than forcing us to melee in chain.I'm hearing stories of Furies soloing the lvl 66 and 67 critters in the bonemire relatively easily. I know our Warden comfortably can kill lvl 65's. I can do 61 max and thats a major risk. Blue up-arrows at most.When I was grouping up I was seeing so many of my bow CA's being parried I ended up using melee, it was more efficient than using my bow.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't believe we need to be over sorcerers or assassins on any kind of consistent basis.  I want to be <em>equivalent</em> to sorcerers and assassins, with the top spot switching around with random or situational factors.  That's what Tier 1 was supposed to be, and I hold SoE to their word on that.</p><p>Wizzies alone aren't DPS kings.  Wizzies, Rangers, Warlocks, and Assassins should all be DPS kings--kings at a round table.</p><hr></blockquote>Problem there though is Wizards and Warlocks get a decent amount of utility on top of their dps. We get nothing at all. If we just did the same amount of DPS as the spell chuckers nobody is going to choose a Ranger over them on account of the utility they bring to the table.We need to be able to do more dps with less chance of getting aggro to compensate for our total lack of utility.Just my 2p at any rate.</span><div></div>

[Vacan]

<div></div><p>I say if we are to be equal we should get to play without having to pay for any of our DPS just like the Wizzies and Warlocks. I don't think one T1 DPS class should have to pay to be equal. Other than that I would be happy to have a way of keeping the mobs from me long enough to kill them. If I am going to have to melee them then something has to be done to make that more functional in that. If we have a lot DPS and can't keep the mobs at ranged solo we will never be able to solo effectively.</p><p> </p><p>Sorry</p>

[LyricDawnhag]

<div>I am all for removing poisons from the game.  Once the "random" nature of the added damage is gone from the the equation, SOE should be able to adjust our CAs so that we are back in the T1 range again.  Let our DPS be due to our ability as a marksman rather than a quick roll of the proc dice.</div><div> </div><div>While I might tear up a bit you can remove the 1.2 plat worth of legondary poison I have in the bank IF you just fix our damage!</div><div> </div><div>Rais -  60 Ranger - Befallen</div><div> </div>

[LoreLady]

I think they are talking about rangers doing single target damage over our mage counterparts. Since they are geared AE wise as it is.

[Tseri]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:The next freaking person I hear that makes that kind of statement should be removed from the gene pool. Before you post, look into what you are posting.<hr></blockquote>I am so with you on this.  Just like the next person that posts about our "utility" needs to be forcibly castrated without anestesia (or something equally painful for a female).

[Runewind]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>LyricDawnhagen wrote:<div>I am all for removing poisons from the game.  Once the "random" nature of the added damage is gone from the the equation, SOE should be able to adjust our CAs so that we are back in the T1 range again.  Let our DPS be due to our ability as a marksman rather than a quick roll of the proc dice.</div><div> </div><div>While I might tear up a bit you can remove the 1.2 plat worth of legondary poison I have in the bank IF you just fix our damage!</div><div> </div><div>Rais -  60 Ranger - Befallen</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>So with you on this one! My god I would love it if I never had to buy a poison again to do damage. but it would hurt the alchemist community.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by TwistedRiddles on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:44 PM</span></p>

[Day]

<div></div><div>With the current standing s on the way things are and primarily going over the parses on various t6 raids here is what I found on tier 1 dps:</div><div> </div><div>Rangers: Highest damage on average, our burst ae's if used toegeth (both of them) could out damage a warlock on an ae fight, but that's only once every 3 minutes.   On single targets, we were only fights that required Jousting often doing up to 1k dps on single target raid named with AE's. This is no longer the case post LU20 as our damage from procs was reduced by over 80% which would add up to a 40-60% loss of dps due to the lack of effectiveness of Quick Shot (from our stance) and poisons.</div><div> </div><div>Assassins: Highest damage potential, they do have some long recast timers, annoying on the back only positioning and heavily rewuire stealth. It takes a really good  Assassin to maximize the potential of the class. They have to make extremely good use of concealment and jousting opprtunities without getting pummelled by AE's. If the mob has no ae then the Assassin can parse up to around 1600 dps, if it's a joust fight due to the mob AE's then that damage is closer to 700-900 depending on how many AE's and if their guild efficiently can joust. On Raid mobs that have multiple AE's (Rhoen for example) assassins are just plain screwed.</div><div> </div><div>Wizards: High single target spell damage. The main problem with wizards is that they don't have enough deagro. Give a Wiz Alin's and Amends, let them go buck wild and they were parsing slightly under rangers on Joust fights, around up to 1kish dps. The requirements are high as it does involve them spam casting with a troub using maestro's.</div><div> </div><div>Warlocks: The kings of constant AE's, on a single tartget mob they parse about 100-300 dps less than wizards. They also share the same deagro problems as wizards but can easily clear off mobs that are grouped together in the same encounter. A good example would be the Poet's Palace: The Return raid instance. If the warlock doesn't lag out and has sufficient deagro, they can parse anywhere between 1k-3k dps depending on how fast the encounters are dropping as they pull agro easy and usually end up dead if the encounter lasts too long.</div><div> </div><div>Pre LU 20 the dps tier was like this:</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1</div><div>Ranger</div><div>Conjuror</div><div>Necro</div><div>Brigand</div><div> </div><div>Tier 2</div><div>Assassin</div><div>Wizard</div><div>Swashbuckler</div><div>Warlock</div><div> </div><div>Due note that this is the average on T6 raid mobs, most of the mobs have 1 or 2 AE's.</div><div> </div><div>Post LU20:</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1</div><div>Conjuror</div><div>Necro</div><div>Brigand</div><div>Assassin</div><div> </div><div>Tier 2</div><div>Wizard</div><div>Warlock</div><div>Swashbuckler</div><div>Ranger</div><div> </div><div>Same encounters, the swashbucklers were also effected by this changed as hail of steel no longer procs poison as often either so they constitute a loss of around 10-20% of their dps.</div><div> </div><div>I also compiled a chart on the various teirs according to the class' maximum potential in Damage, Utility, and Defense (livability). The scale is 1 to 5, 5 being the highest:</div><div> </div><div>Guardian</div><div>Dmg: 2</div><div>Uty: 3</div><div>Def: 5</div><div> </div><div>Berserker</div><div>Dmg: 3</div><div>Uty: 2</div><div>Def: 5</div><div> </div><div>Paladin</div><div>Dmg: 1</div><div>Uty: 4</div><div>Def: 5</div><div> </div><div>Shadow Knight</div><div>Dmg: 3</div><div>Uty: 2</div><div>Def: 5</div><div> </div><div>Monk:</div><div>Dmg: 3</div><div>Uty: 2</div><div>Def: 3</div><div> </div><div>Bruiser</div><div>Dmg: 3</div><div>Uty: 2</div><div>Def: 4</div><div> </div><div>Assasin</div><div>Dmg: 5</div><div>Uty: 2</div><div>Def: 2</div><div> </div><div>Ranger (Pre LU20)</div><div><div>Dmg: 5</div><div>Uty: 1</div><div>Def: 2</div><div> </div></div><div>Ranger (post LU20)</div><div>Dmg: 4</div><div>Uty: 1</div><div>Def: 2</div><div> </div><div>Brigand</div><div>Dmg: 4</div><div>Uty: 3</div><div>Def: 3</div><div> </div><div>Swashbuckler</div><div>Dmg: 4</div><div>Uty: 3</div><div>Def: 3</div><div> </div><div>Dirge</div><div>Dmg: 3</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 2</div><div> </div><div>Troubadour</div><div><div>Dmg: 3</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 2</div><div> </div><div>Warlock</div><div>Dmg: 4</div><div>Uty: 3</div><div>Def: 1</div><div> </div><div>Wizard</div><div><div>Dmg: 4</div><div>Uty: 3</div><div>Def: 1</div><div> </div><div>Necromancer:</div><div><div>Dmg: 5</div><div>Uty: 3</div><div>Def: 1</div><div> </div><div>Conjuror:</div><div><div>Dmg: 5</div><div>Uty: 3</div><div>Def: 1</div><div> </div><div>Coercer:</div><div><div>Dmg: 3</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 1</div><div> </div><div>Illusionist</div><div><div>Dmg: 3</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 1</div><div> </div><div>Inquisitor</div><div><div>Dmg: 1</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 3</div><div> </div><div>Templar</div><div><div>Dmg:1</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 3</div><div> </div><div>Fury</div><div><div>Dmg: 2</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 2</div><div> </div><div>Warden</div><div><div>Dmg: 2</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 2</div><div> </div><div>Defiler:</div><div><div>Dmg: 1.5</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 2.5</div><div> </div><div><div>Mystic</div><div>Dmg: 1.5</div><div>Uty: 5</div><div>Def: 2.5</div><div> </div><div>*In terms of the Defense portion, I put into account mitigation and avoidance through armor type and self buffs. Rangers are 2 because we have very low mitigation, even with chain. ie. A Predator's defensive stance mainly effects avoidance where a Rogue's defensive stance gives them mitigation and avoidance. Tow-to-Toe against a mob, a rogue in defensive will last longer than a pred, but never longer than a fighter really. This is why Preds go a 2 and Rogues got a 3.</div><div> </div><div>*For Utility you have mainly uses that benefit others as well as that player. A good example of why assassins got a 2 was due to their apply poison and agro transfer buffs. Which of course isn't as useful as a Brigand's line of debuffs (ie: Dispatch) but is more than a Ranger's Utility in the Confusion arrow line (which took a major nerf) and the amazing shot line (which is extremely situational as it often is used as just another bow attack than utility. In some rare cases it might be used to pull).</div><div> </div><div>Remember that this is the potential sorted out through a few hundred parses on Raids and groups over several months. As for the Ranger post LU 20, the data is mainly my parses over about 20 hours of grinding in several groups.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

[Sapperlight]

<div></div><p>After another day of play, here are some numbers for comparison purposes pre- and post-LU20.  I'm only giving round numbers; don't get caught up in the actual values, since all parsers and fights are intrinsically different.</p><p>-Baseline (ranged) damage: Before, 600-800; Now, 300-400</p><p>-Burst damage (short fight, using both AEs on group of mobs): Before, 1000 Dps; Now, 600</p><p>-Melee damage: Before, unknown; Now, 300-500</p><p>-Without poison, DPS dropped 100+</p><p>-In a group of two rangers, a coercer, a berserker (tank), and two healers, the breakdown of the top four average DPS was Ranger (300), Ranger (200), Coercer (200), and Berserker (150).</p><p>Conclusions: Ranger DPS dropped by approximately one-half to one-third.  I outpaced the other ranger because I have all master or adept 3 spells for my ranged CAs.  Melee damage is now equivalent to ranged damage, which was a surprise to me.  The other ranger had a very typical gear and spell setup, leading me to conclude that the balancing was not done for the typical player.</p>

[AfflictedOne]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dayam wrote:<div></div><div>Post LU20:</div><div> </div><div>Tier 1</div><div>Conjuror</div><div>Necro</div><div>Brigand</div><div>Assassin</div><div> </div><div>Tier 2</div><div>Wizard</div><div>Warlock</div><div>Swashbuckler</div><div>Ranger</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Actually I'm gonna disagree with this one.  You said it's in different groups etc.  When grouping with people that know how to play their classes a well played ranger drops even further down the chart.  I've been outdamaged consistantly by most of the tank classes and a couple healers after LU 20 (Furies can easily outdps rangers now).  The way rangers play now there's absolutely nothing that can be done to increase dps.  You cap out at a certain number and no amount of jousting/etc will increase it any. Not to mention swashies can easily outdamage brigands now also.</span><div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><p>Blackguard while your doing your testing can you also ask the design team about all the additional undocumented changes that were put in with LU20.  It's bad enough these changes were put in with such little testing.  But to have multiple other skills reduced on top of that without even a mention is just wrong.</p><p>Skills that changed in LU20:</p><p>Stream of Arrows - Increased delay in start up, cancels when mob dies  (the one positive change)</p><p>Sniper Shot - Stun and throwback reduced from 4 sec to 1 sec</p><p>Debilitating Arrow - Can no longer be cast while moving</p><p>Thorny Trap - Size of trap cut in half.  Trigger point for trap reduced to center of trap.   Root breaks on any damage.  Root breaks alot without the mob taking damage.</p><p>Cheap Shot - Stun reduced but don't recall what it was reduced to.  I'll edit later when I can check</p><p> </p><p>Why did all these skills have their uses reduced and why was it done without notice.</p><p> </p>

[Writer Cal]

<div></div><blockquote><hr><p>1.)    Let me use my bow more.    A root and/or point blank bowshot ability would be very helpful.</p><p>2.)   We have to be able to shoot on the move.</p><hr></blockquote><p>These were two of my thoughts last night when I was soloing my Ranger with the new changes.  A root or point blank bowshot ability and the ability to use out bow CAs on the move would help immensely with enabling us to solo effectively again.</p><p>Perhaps through a modification to our stances?  Defensive Stance could give us the ability to use our bows point blank, and Offensive Stance could give us the ability to use our bow CAs while on the move?  Don't know, just a thought.</p><p>Also, I strongly support the idea of increasing the number of arrows the Makeshift Arrows line produces.  One of the big complaints I keep seeing is Rangers having to pay for their DPS as opposed to some other classes.  I don't mind paying for poisons to have the added damage; I do agree that we shouldn't be relying on poison procs for such a huge chunk of our damage.  But as a bow class (and it seems most of us want to be using our bows as much as possible) we really can't do that much without our arrows.  To me, this need seems to justify the number of arrows that line produces.</p><p>As for our overall DPS being dropped a bit too low even when grouped... I keep coming back to some tweaking in our bow CA damage and recast times.  A little increase in damage here, a little decrease in recast there, and it seems feasible to find a happy medium where we aren't way above other T1 dps classes but aren't way below them either.</p>

[hieronym]

<div>in the groups i was in tonight i was out damaged by both brigands and swashy on nearly every encounter. The mobs were lvl 61-62^^^ and we were lvl 61-62. i would be doing around 250-300 DPS and they were around 400-450 DPS and dont forget these are probably the best debuff classes around so they make our DPS a lot better. When i was top this was due to quick fire and poison proccing more than usual and probably their bigger hits not being up. Even the tanks were around the same DPS and they are using their defensive stances. Tanks were a pally and monk</div><div> </div><div>Only way i can see to improve our DPS is by increasing the damage of our CA's a little and maybe lower the cool down time.</div>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><p>Hi there,</p><p>Raided court of Al'Afaz last night with my guild. I didn't have time to to do much with the parses after but the bottom line was:</p><p>DPS between 310 and 480</p><p>DPS same time last week was 800 to 1k on the same mobs and virtually the same set-up (I used rare poison this week instead of the treasured because I guessed I wouldn't be pulling agro - so my potetnial DPS was actually higher than last week)</p><p>In many fights the Necro pets were achieveing higher DPS. I didn't get a chance to add in the necro damage for a true figure.</p><p>Now we aren't an uber raid guild and I'm no super geared expert raider but I like to think I'm an average player at least. Are we really meant to be doing so much less damage after the change?</p><p>I honestly can't believe the Necro pets are meant to out DPS me.</p><p>Our guild wizzy (yep we have just one) wasn't there last night so I don't have any data for a true T1 class. The only real DPS was provided by the Necro's and pets last night - I could have been replaced by a tank.</p><p>I tried to keep as much the same as the previous week. I didn't try a high dot poison and didn't try any extensive melee fighting.</p><p>It has been posted that more melee might push up DPS a little if brutal instinct is invoked. Well, if I have to do significant amounts of melee in raids with my ranger to achieve the correct DPS then time for another character for me. Playing this guy since Nov. '04 and it's always been about the bow.</p><p>I have no solo and group data yet so can't comment on those areas. Right now, as far as I'm concerned, we are broken DPS for raids.</p><p>Mirdo.</p><p> </p>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><p>Blackguard while your doing your testing can you also ask the design team about all the additional undocumented changes that were put in with LU20.  It's bad enough these changes were put in with such little testing.  But to have multiple other skills reduced on top of that without even a mention is just wrong.</p><p>Skills that changed in LU20:</p><p>Stream of Arrows - Increased delay in start up, cancels when mob dies  (the one positive change)</p><p>Sniper Shot - Stun and throwback reduced from 4 sec to 1 sec</p><p>Debilitating Arrow - Can no longer be cast while moving</p><p>Thorny Trap - Size of trap cut in half.  Trigger point for trap reduced to center of trap.   Root breaks on any damage.  Root breaks alot without the mob taking damage.</p><p>Cheap Shot - Stun reduced but don't recall what it was reduced to.  I'll edit later when I can check</p><p> </p><p>Why did all these skills have their uses reduced and why was it done without notice.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>I commented about that in another thread on the forum and got no reply.We all know the reasons why (PVP), it's just that SoE simply wont admit it.File this with the statement about PvP not effecting PvE made by Scott Hartsman, along with the statement made by Blackguard that rangers had been throughly tested on beta after the changes were made.

[Day]

<div>In regards to Afflictedone's reply, most of the fights were fights that involve AE's so the Swashbucklers had to joust. In that type of raid, Swashbucklers only out damage Brigands if there is no AE from the mob as then they can constantly be in the mix without worrying about damage. Also, tkae 2 groups Tank, Healer and Rogue (both equal in terms of gear and skill tiers ie. adepts or masters), the Brigand will do much more damage as the Brigand's group will have a lot more mitigation on the mobs debuffed. A lvl 60 Brigand can debuff up to 5k to all physical mitigation for 13 secs (Dispatch alone is 3-3.6k), and their other miti debuffs (2k Spell and 1600 Physical) can be kept up permanently. If both classes are in the same group, yeah the Swashbuckler will do more damage as they have a higher base damage. You also gotta keeo in mind that the Swashbuckler would only be doing so much more damage because the Brigand is debuffing the mob's mitigation for the group by so much.</div>

[IBSomnifer]

<div>Its hard being contructive when i can't solo a even con single arrow up mob with full legendary and adept 3 spells at lvl 60.  When snare means so little in this game...i can't get more then 1 shot off before a mob gets to me with or without a snare on it.  Snares don't last long enough, and arn't powerful enough, when they do stick.  I can't melee 60-80% of a mobs health....rangers arn't designed that way. </div>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p> </p><p> </p><p>IS this post for real? Put all of these together and u have the 5 best dps classes in game combined...</p>

[Steezi]

<div>keep normal procs how they hit now, put poison and stream of arrows back, give the punk mages an aggro dump</div>

[Storm_Runner]

<div></div>While I agree with your list of suggestions I think it's more than we're likely to get.  I would be happy with the upgrade to ranged combat arts, the addition of new melee arts you suggested, and upgrading our stun to work on ^ mobs (with a shorter recast timer so we had more chance to use our positional attacks when meleeing).  I think things would have worked out better if they'd just removed stun poisons and reduced the percent chance for our procs to go off.  We, along with our assassin brothers, are supposed to be tier 1 dps just behind wizzies and warlocks.  That tier 1 damage ability should never have been based off of procs.  If 40-50% of our dps comes from procs then were we ever really tier 1 dps?  Being tier 1 dps means that you can crank out that level of damage on a consistant basis THRU YOUR COMBAT ARTS...not thru a proc, or series of procs, that works off of a % chance to work.  Tier1 ranged dps is our class defining skill/attribute.  Being able to cause damage with procs is not and should never be a class defining attribute.  I think this was the root of SOEs error.  They looked at our dps and said "they're tier 1 where they belong" without bothering to check where that dps was coming from.  Then the proc bug reared it's ugly head and SOE decided it had to be fixed.  Again...without bothering to see how that would affect our dps.  They "fixed" the problem and created a whole new issue that is potentially more game breaking (in that it adversly affects more players).  The only solution that I see is to make us a tier 1 dps class again (as they've stated we're supposed to be) but make that dps come solely from our combat arts.  If a proc occurs once in a blue moon then it's a bonus.  Rangers and assassins are supposed to be tier 1 dps behind wizzies and warlocks.  To me that says that if they can crank out (these are arbitrary numbers) 400 dps at level 30 and 800 dps at level 60 then a ranger or assassin should be able to crank out 350 dps at 30 and 750 at 60.  Right now we're supposed to be tier 1 dps (I know I'm using that phrase a lot...I'm trying to drive home a point) but if your dps is only 50 above a plate tank then that's not it (and it looks like there are numerous parses on this board showing just that).  I really hope SOE has plans to fix this because right now soloing my ranger is becoming uncomfortably like soloing my guardian. 

[Runewind]

<span><blockquote><hr>Storm_Runner wrote:<div></div>While I agree with your list of suggestions I think it's more than we're likely to get.  I would be happy with the upgrade to ranged combat arts, the addition of new melee arts you suggested, and upgrading our stun to work on ^ mobs (with a shorter recast timer so we had more chance to use our positional attacks when meleeing).  I think things would have worked out better if they'd just removed stun poisons and reduced the percent chance for our procs to go off.  We, along with our assassin brothers, are supposed to be tier 1 dps just behind wizzies and warlocks.  That tier 1 damage ability should never have been based off of procs.  If 40-50% of our dps comes from procs then were we ever really tier 1 dps?  Being tier 1 dps means that you can crank out that level of damage on a consistant basis THRU YOUR COMBAT ARTS...not thru a proc, or series of procs, that works off of a % chance to work.  Tier1 ranged dps is our class defining skill/attribute.  Being able to cause damage with procs is not and should never be a class defining attribute.  I think this was the root of SOEs error.  They looked at our dps and said "they're tier 1 where they belong" without bothering to check where that dps was coming from.  Then the proc bug reared it's ugly head and SOE decided it had to be fixed.  Again...without bothering to see how that would affect our dps.  They "fixed" the problem and created a whole new issue that is potentially more game breaking (in that it adversly affects more players).  The only solution that I see is to make us a tier 1 dps class again (as they've stated we're supposed to be) but make that dps come solely from our combat arts.  If a proc occurs once in a blue moon then it's a bonus.  Rangers and assassins are supposed to be tier 1 dps behind wizzies and warlocks.  To me that says that if they can crank out (these are arbitrary numbers) 400 dps at level 30 and 800 dps at level 60 then a ranger or assassin should be able to crank out 350 dps at 30 and 750 at 60.  Right now we're supposed to be tier 1 dps (I know I'm using that phrase a lot...I'm trying to drive home a point) but if your dps is only 50 above a plate tank then that's not it (and it looks like there are numerous parses on this board showing just that).  I really hope SOE has plans to fix this because right now soloing my ranger is becoming uncomfortably like soloing my guardian. <hr></blockquote>I agree with you except that we're supposed to be tier 1 DPS EVEN with wizards/warlocks not behind. The point of the tiers is that depending on circumstances we should all be able to outdamage eachother at different times. None of us should ALWAYS be ahead of the other. We were always ahead of wizards and warlocks before LU20 and that was fixed. But now they're always ahead of us and that's not right either.</span><div></div>

[Storm_Runner]

<div></div><p>I agree that predators should be even dps with sorcerors and who comes out on top depends on the situation.  I was basing my statement that we were supposed to be behind sorcerors on a half remembered post I read quite a while ago where a dev stated that sorcerors were supposed to be the highest dps followed by predators.  That could have been revoked or changed depending on what SOE felt needed balancing at the moment.</p><p>Also...for those who've been commenting about sorceror utility vs. predator utility:  I've got a warlock as well as a ranger.  If you compare a socerors utility to the utility of other casters you will see that they give up most of that utility for a dps advantage.  The same as we predators give up most of our utility (compared to that of other scouts) for added dps.  Preds and Sorcs both are willing to sacrifice added utility for the ability to kill faster so I don't think a contest over whose utility is better is warranted here.  It's situational for the most part just as who is better at tier 1 dps should be.</p><p>Really I could care less at this point about poisons and procs.  We shouldn't have been having to rely on what is, after all, a side effect to bring our dps up where it should be.  If they want to balance rangers with other tier 1 dps classes then:</p><p>1.  Raise the damage on our combat arts (melee and ranged) so that our damage is equal to that of other tier 1 classes.</p><p>2.  Give us one ranged combat art with a stun component (that always stuns - not has a % chance to) so hopefully we can get off more than 1 or 2 bow arts before the mob is on us.</p><p>3.  Make our stuns last at least 4 seconds.</p>

[Fromingo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Tarryn wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fromingo wrote:<div></div><p>Seriously if you're going to even consider giving Rangers the ability to tank mobs more than they already have(seen non grouped Rangers with 70+ avoidance) then kick some of that same love down to the rest of us scouts.    I think Predators are a bit spoiled when they are the only scout I know who can get 70+% avoidance solo and still complain they need more to be able to "melee with mobs"  i.e. tank. </p><hr></blockquote><div>Point being that many of our attacks cannot even be used except from range.  Since we can't frontload our damage with the opening barrage like before, we have to tank the mob much longer with our comparatively feeble melee skills.  Consequently, we're spending a lot more time toe to toe with the mob, but without any compensating defense.</div><div> </div><div>Basically, whilst soloing, we're now a rogue class--except with fewer useable attacks, doing less damage, with fewer melee buffs and far fewer debuffs.  Not a recipe for success.</div><hr></blockquote><p>And the rogue has much less avoidance than the ranger...so again why do you think you need even more defense?  When you can already reach brawler level avoidance by yourself <strong>and</strong> be able to wear chainmail I don't see a problem.  Seems like you were 'balanced' by having your melee DPS cut way down and your defense raised way up already.   </p><p>They should allow rangers to use Ranged CA's in melee with cast times that can be interrupted like a caster.  Raise base damage if you raise cast time (like the Fury).  There is really no reason to not allow ranged CA's in melee nor auto bow attacks.</p><p>Message Edited by Fromingo on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p>

[Avendelf]

<div></div>they need to put the parry rate of mobs against bows back where it used to be. Im 99% sure it was stealth nerfed pre-LU20 as 2 days back to back in PP i was hitting fine, zone in the next day and suddenly half of my bow attacks were being parried.  Having higher parry rates PLUS lower poison proc rates is too much.  One or the other would be sufficient to curb our DPS while not overdoing it.  Also, the stun poison proc rate could be just a little higher, 15% is pretty low all things considered with how low the hit rate is overall now and that it can only proc on the first arrow of an attack...just my 2 cents...all constructive

[Carna]

<div></div><p>I've said it several times now, I'm [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure parry rates are higher for ranged CAs than melee CAs. The strekiness of Ranger soloing experience is for a large part down to whether or not the mob parries your opening volley.</p><p>I really think Rangers should get the devs to look at parry rates.</p>

[Vimy]

<span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><p>I've said it several times now, I'm [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure parry rates are higher for ranged CAs than melee CAs. The strekiness of Ranger soloing experience is for a large part down to whether or not the mob parries your opening volley.</p><p>I really think Rangers should get the devs to look at parry rates.</p><hr></blockquote>I plan on checking this when I get home, but does our "Attack Rating" in the persona window still drop when switching to ranged combat?  I know it used to.It never seemed to matter before, but all of a sudden I'm getting a sneaking suspision that maybe they fixed another "bug" that's been around for a long time....</span><div></div>

[Avendelf]

<div></div>It still switches yes, attack rating drops to about 560 from 1160 for myself...

[Jay]

<div></div><p>Parries are definitely very odd right now. Noticeably higher for ranged attacks, which makes the opposite of sense, for two reasons:</p><p>1. We're rangers. Supposedly masters of the bow. We should be more effective with a bow than with knives.</p><p>2. It's easier to block an incoming arrow or five than it is to block a sword or stick coming at your head?</p><p>C'mon, Devs. The reduction in DPS was necessary, but you've increased our recast times without telling us, nerfed way more procs than you said you were, made poisons more of a novelty than anything else, and now you make it so our primary form of attack is ridiculously ineffective. We have FOUR frontal melee CAs and what, a dozen ranged CAs? Insult to injury ain't in it.</p>

[Bayler_x]

<span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<p>I've said it several times now, I'm [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure parry rates are higher for ranged CAs than melee CAs. The strekiness of Ranger soloing experience is for a large part down to whether or not the mob parries your opening volley.</p><p>I really think Rangers should get the devs to look at parry rates.</p><hr></blockquote><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=212&query.id=0#M212">Live Update #16</a> said the following:</span><blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote><blockquote><span></span><font color="#ffcc00"><b>*** Items ***</b></font>- Dual-wield weapons now do additional damage, since they miss more auto-attack chances when using spells and combat arts. They also have a better chance to trigger their proc effects.- <b>Fast weapons with a low delay are now less likely to cause a defender to riposte than slower weapons with a long delay.</b><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>I wonder if that riposte mechanic has somehow crept in to archery as well?  Maybe we didn't notice it before.  Or maybe it used to consider ripostes impossible against ranged attacks before, and SOE just recently changed them to be counted as parries instead.  (Just speculation - I don't have any data on this issue.)<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

I'm glad to see us being weaned from the poison teat. I never agreed with having to have the majority of my tier of DPS coming from procs and items I had to buy.  Since procs have been adjusted and since procs were most of the point of poisons in general, we need to stop being required to rely on them so much. My suggestions lie along the same lines as others.1. Upgrade our ranged CAs.2. Give us roots, stuns and effective snares tied to our ranged CAs.3. Significantly reduce the casting time on ranged CAs and significantly lower the recast timer.4. Point blank shot would be nice, but I would be happy with being allowed to finish a CA rather than getting "Too close!" messages.I have been soloing the same solo mobs I was before just fine. But I can see room for improvement.  If we're supposed to be Tier 1 DPS, then we need to be raised to that level and it really does need to come from our own abilities. We've had to rely on paying for our damage for too long. Poisons and procs should be icing on the cake, not something factored into a baseline of our abilities.<div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bayler_xev wrote:<span><blockquote></span>I wonder if that riposte mechanic has somehow crept in to archery as well?  Maybe we didn't notice it before.  Or maybe it used to consider ripostes impossible against ranged attacks before, and SOE just recently changed them to be counted as parries instead.  (Just speculation - I don't have any data on this issue.)</blockquote><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>The only reason why I noticed it is because I took a level 28 Swashie and Ranger to Zek just before the patch so I could compare before and after. Although they were too low to get a view of the clases in general because I was literally playing one for 30min then swapping back and forth I was able to get a very clear comparison of the two in my mind... the number one thing that stuck in my mind was the number of Ranged CAs that got parried.</p><p>Given the patch note you highight, <strong>if</strong> parry rate is normalised against weapon delay as it would appear from the note reposte is, then guess what's going to happen to a delay 7 weapon compared to a delay 1.5 weapon?... aye it's get parried over 4 times as much..... I <strong>don't</strong> know that is what is happening. I'm speculating now.</p>

[Tarryn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fromingo wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Tarryn wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fromingo wrote:<div></div><p>Seriously if you're going to even consider giving Rangers the ability to tank mobs more than they already have(seen non grouped Rangers with 70+ avoidance) then kick some of that same love down to the rest of us scouts.    I think Predators are a bit spoiled when they are the only scout I know who can get 70+% avoidance solo and still complain they need more to be able to "melee with mobs"  i.e. tank. </p><hr></blockquote><div>Point being that many of our attacks cannot even be used except from range.  Since we can't frontload our damage with the opening barrage like before, we have to tank the mob much longer with our comparatively feeble melee skills.  Consequently, we're spending a lot more time toe to toe with the mob, but without any compensating defense.</div><div> </div><div>Basically, whilst soloing, we're now a rogue class--except with fewer useable attacks, doing less damage, with fewer melee buffs and far fewer debuffs.  Not a recipe for success.</div><hr></blockquote><p>And the rogue has much less avoidance than the ranger...so again why do you think you need even more defense?  When you can already reach brawler level avoidance by yourself <strong>and</strong> be able to wear chainmail I don't see a problem.  Seems like you were 'balanced' by having your melee DPS cut way down and your defense raised way up already.   </p><p><strong>They should allow rangers to use Ranged CA's in melee with cast times that can be interrupted like a caster.  Raise base damage if you raise cast time (like the Fury).  There is really no reason to not allow ranged CA's in melee nor auto bow attacks.</strong></p><p>Message Edited by Fromingo on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree.  I wasn't saying we needed more defense, I was saying that we don't have the defense to do what they're making us do.  Rogues are the off-tank scout class, and I don't want to be that.  Predators are meant to kill with pure DPS, not offtank/debuff/DPS.  Rogues are good at what they do (at least, I know Brigands rock).  I just want rangers to be good at what we do--kill stuff <strong>a lot</strong>.</p><p>Letting us use ranged CAs at point blank would be very helpful for soloing, but it doesn't resolve the fundamental problem that they've reduced our damage <em>too far.</em></p>

[Morgonn]

<div></div>With my ranger (level 56, full player made gear & imbued ironwood bow, no fableds, M1x1 and M2x1 bow CA's and rest of bow CA's at Adept 1, using stun poison and high DOT (Virulent Sting I think)) I am seeing the following now:1) Bow Arts too slow by a LOT- whether SOE admits it or not, those are far slower than a week ago.  We need faster CA's and less cool down on them.2) WAY too many parries.  This needs looked at especially hard since our bow damage is so much lower than before. This is cutting into bow damage that we simply cannot afford to lose.3) CA damage needs a boost, and a decent one if we are to be able to solo decent experience targets.4) Melee/defensive abilities definitely need a boost.  The target is usually on me before I can get a third shot off and has a significantly large amount of its health remaining.  I usually have to flee those fights since I just don't tank well enough to go toe-to-toe with a white con mob for very long.5) Need a snare/root or something similar, or for Thorny Trap to be "improved"  LOL.  I am a Ranger.  I use a bow.  If the mob is on me, my bow makes a rotten weapon.6) Overall, I can solo blue single down or 2-group double down mobs relatively easily, taking 30-50% damage.  Blue ^ are kinda tough.  White single down or no arrow are moderately difficult and I can expect 50% + damage to my health.  White ^ take me into the red IF my bow procs.  If it doesn't, I usually have to scram.  Yellow of any con is just plain tough and not worth the time expenditure involved for the experience return.  Yes, we were over powered and that is neither here nor there since it no longer applies.  Now? We definitely need some boosts in both offensive and defensive capabilities.  Hope this helps a little.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Morgonn on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:38 PM</span></p>

[TerriBlades]

<div>I noticed that to Ranged CAs seem to definately be much slower then before LU20, but I have a feeling that they upped the CA timers in that respect, because down the Agi line of AAs for rangers we can increase our CA speeds... effectively making us on par with speeds we were before, not actually better.</div><div> </div><div>Nesse</div><div>60 Ranger</div><div>Oasis</div>

[Day]

<div></div><div></div><p>The main problems I see right now in our ability has been with a lot of recent changes, the movement speed increase in and out of battle is one thing that has definitely killed our solo ability. You'd think yeah, but they increased it for players as well. Yet when you think about how rangers have to stand still in order to use a ranged CA, this is more than anything a hindrance because the mobs bum rush us way too fast now. Before you could get one initial bow CA and another while the mob was running to you, granted you were maximum long bow distance (35m). Now at maximum distance, I can only get one ranged CA in unless I wait for the mob to start walking away. I use the CA (usually stealthy fire) at max distance in order to hope that with the new moving mob and ranged CA distance changes there's enough distance between us to get a second shot in. They fixed knockback today and returned it back to it's 4 secs, so instead of using the cheap shot>precise shot, I now use point blank shot>debilitating arrow/triple fire.</p><p>We can no longer back pedal either because of the recent nerf that was a result to nerfing the rangers on the PVP servers (yeah PVP not effecting live at all). Not only does this make the ranger in-combat movement speed useless (which it practicaly always was do to the mob speed increase and the fact that we have to be stationary to fire an bow CA's) but it nerfed all the other players as well. Tanks have a much harder time to pull since they can no longer just use a ranged auto or spell and back pedal to the group. They now have to turn 180 degrees and take off, often getting pummelled or feared right back into the mobs (as they can't get out of casting range fast enough anymore).</p><p>Yes, we are getting parried by a ridiculous amount or just plain miss now. I was going over my parses and a Guardian in Defensive and the Warden attack skill buff (at Master 1, which meant the guard had probably +11 to atk skills) had a percentage of hits over 50% (with a 1 hander btw and in front of the mob) which was over 4 times what my ranged hit percentage was while at the mob's back. Some fights I missed all of my ranged auto attacks, most fights I hit only once. Against a named mob 5 levels higher than the both of us, 98 sec fight, I hit the mob 3 times out of 25 (22 misses) where the Guardian hit the mob 38 out of 73(35 misses/parry/riposte). With the Warden buff the Guardian ony had about +11 to his attack skill due to his stance, and my offensive stance which gives over 30 to my attacks skills. Of course the guardian's ripostes and such were factored in as well, but everyone knows that any player behind the mob should hit with a lot more accuracy due to positioning bonuses which should lower the mob's avoidance, not just eliminate blocks, parries and ripostes. How is it that a Ranger using his bow from behind, completely devoid of block/parry/riposte with a lot more more attack skills (piercing/slashing/ranged) hit less than a guardian of the same level with less attack skill. Yes they are in the same group and such but this is ridiculous. If most of my Bow CA's weren't master and one at adept 3, I probably wouldn't hit the mob at all as they were still missing missing about 30% of the time on the same mob.</p><p>1. Fix our accuracy, the bow bug (the fact that it has the atk rating of a single dual wield not 2) is definitely a hindrance to us. This was never such a big deal before as the Ranger's primary damage was from Bow CA's and the procs we got off of them. Now that we no longer have the procs we have to rely more on ranged auto-attack for the majority of the very few procs we now get as it is. If you're took away most of the procs from our CA's, then you should at least make it possible for us to at least hit with our ranged auto. The Quick Shot off of our offensive stance only might hit 2-3 times per encounter if we're lucky, in most cases it doesn't even go off at all (30% chance? yeah right). Even if the Quick Shots do go off, then in most cases now, it misses. So it's like woohoo ir proc'd! Oh wait it missed... This also effects Stream of Arrows, if you haven't noticed will miss almost at least 50% of the time against mobs barely 2 or 3 levels higher. Mine is at Master 1 and still misses most of it's shots.</p><p>2. Bow CA's need to have their damage increased, a scout's primary damage is supposed to be from CA's. In order to balance out our procs SoE ninja nerfed our base damage, then took away over 80% of our procs and never returned the base damage on our CA's. How is that for balancing?</p><p>3. Evidently the majority of our damage should come from CA's, but SoE has made it so that we now have started gearing all melee classes to rely more on auto attacks as well, hence the change into almost all the melee CA's casting times to .2 secs. Ever since LU13, melee combat arts became faster and the Ranger's Bow CA's were made to be like spells where we could easily be interrupted, must be stationary and had an increase in the casting times. I find it pretty sad that I can be 5m away from a melee mob (the sweet spot to be able to get melee CA's and Bow CA's) get hit by assault (a lvl 3 fighter ae) and get interrupted immediately while trying to get a bow CA off.</p><p>4. Make it less that we have to rely on the achievements in order to be able to hold a candle to anything at all. If you look at the agi line of the Predator achievemts (the only one that a ranger can really use because the other lines are too heavily aimed at benefitting assins ie. procs that go off only on melee attacks, or attacks that only work if you use melee, or just plain old melee CA attacks in general) they give us Poin Blank Shot (which is finally no longer useless since it's a 4 sec stun), an in-battle movement speed increase (useless as we have to be stationary to use bow arts and the back-peddling nerf). Ranged Crits (probably the only real decent achievement in the bunch) and the final skill which takes 8 points, a 35% decrease in Ranged CA casting times. So we would basically have to wait until we gather at least 25 points in achievment in order to be able to be a lot less gimpy compared to other classes. Oh wait, they get achievments too so we're still going to be gimped compared to other classes.</p><p>5. With the back pedalling nerf and the mob speed increase, snares no longer do the job. The original point of having our in-combat movement speed and snares was so we could snare, move back away from the mob and hopefully get a decent range from the mob to get a bow CA off. Even with a master 1 snare (64%) and turning off my auto-attack as to not break it. The mob still catches up to me while I'm back-pedalling. I now have to snare and run away with my back to the mob and blindly hope that the mob is far enough for me to get a bow CA in, which in most cases is not. With this, snares have been rendered completely useless as before they were rarely of any use. Snares break too fast and in a group situation, what good is snare? Rangers don't pull because mob nukes are often one shotting or bringing us down by over 70% of our hp when we get back to the group. Or if it's a multi-mob encounter, we snare one mob then get pummeled to death by the rest before we even get back to the group. Yes I was stupid enough to try making use of snares in a group situation and often got beat down into a lump of flesh on the floor.</p><p>As for those rogues who feel that our avoidance is so uber, you have to remember with all the avoidance nerfs, we still get hit over 70% of the time with 60% avoidance to mobs our level. So in most cases, we're gonna get hit. Wouldn't you find it more useful to have more mitigation in that situation as avoidance has been proven to be almost crap for anyone except brawlers as their's seems to be a lot more effective than any scout's. The only way a ranger has lived while getting agro was by hoping to evade as much as possible on agro if they're up, switching to the defensive stance and "hope" that they don't get hit enough so the healers can keep them alive long enough for the tank to pull it back. Which in most cases, the mobs land over 2/3 shots and it only takes about 2 hits from a heroic^^^ mob around our level or higher to kill us unless we are heavily buffed defensively.</p><p>Right now I would find these are the heaviest problems that I can think of regarding our class. Hopefully this will be changed soon as right now, Rangers are just a hindrance to a group and most people are realizing it. If it's not changed then the majority of the Rangers will no longer be able to find groups unless they're being pittied and will be forced to solo. Then when you think about all the nerfs we've had that have majorly killed our solo ability, Rangers aren't going to be able to really play this game at all without being frustrated over 95% of the time.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Dayam on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 PM</span></p>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>As a 62 ranger that is pretty much decked out, i feel that our solo abilities, while a little lower than they should be, arent the big problem at hand.... I simply dont feel that any class should be able to take a heroic mob near their level. The fact that we could before, and now cannot while other classes still can doesnt do it for me... fix the overall problem with the con system first thing.</p><p>Dps in groups is my problem. I simply cant hold a candle to where i feel i should be.. granted that rangers were grossly overpowered (at the high end of the class) prepatch, but we were the gods, and now we are meat. Prolly middle 2nd tier dps... those of u that still think we are tier one, imagine what kinda damage those classes would be doin if they worked half as hard mid fight as we now have too... My wrists start to hurt after about an hour or two of grinding. My  templar, swash, bruiser and coercer never have to work as hard to accomplish 4x the work the class is supposed to handle...</p><p>For those who think our group dps is still good, i challenge u to parse your damage... it was often hard to tell just how much dmg we were really doing with all those procs.</p><p>the problem was simply that a ranger had too many variables to work with. People that didnt know the class as well could do the same job as other classes with the same amount of work, but u start to throw in thorny trap, stun poison, 2k in procs off of a 150 dmg CA, and things get a little out of hand. Since it seems that the only purpose of the stun poison was to make us gods at soloing (without it we couldnt accomplish NEAR the same feats; lucky when u kill a blue conned heroic 40% of the time) , and the major problem seems to be the fact that we could solo darn near anything, why didnt they just get rid of stun poison? You cant tell me that the community of alchemists is more valuable to SOE than the community of rangers... Also, instead of destroying a rangers ability to proc, why not do somethin like make the damage procs cause proportional to the CA that cast them? This seems like a great solution to me, and SOE does things like this all the time with other classes...</p><p>Stylee Mc'Cutta (Nek)</p>

[FuzzyChaos]

<div></div><p>Let me start off by saying I have been awake way too long to be posting, but I felt like running my mouth for a min. or so. Plus, I play a healer, and any talk of DPS always gets a chuckle from me. Just call me DPD Damage Per Day lol!</p><p>Granted, while I have not personally searched the forums for any confirmation to this, a guildy told me a Dev post stated that Rangers were never intended to be T1 DPS.( at least so far as burst damage is concerned, maybe sustained, but again, I am not sure.) Yep, if you can't tell, I may just be talking out of my &## here, no sleep = no brains. I think back to the many novels I have read concerning in any part the worth of a Ranger, and to my knowledge, even there the Ranger is at best a T1 "sustained" DPS, but usually fall into a T2 "sustaind" DPS. While virtually any wizard in said novels is a T1 "burst" DPS. The game, as I understand it, WAS based upon previous president, therfore I believe the statements to be very relevant. Really, would you expect to see an ogres Int to start at 80?</p><p>I am sure some of you have a legitamate coplaint conserning some of the changes, but honestly some of the things I took note of while skimming through these post are a bit ridiculous. The majority of suggestions seem to be focused on pushing you back to the top of the DPS, or at the very least, even with wizards. And concerning the moving while shooting that I saw in quite a few posts: Just once, I would love to hear how you do in RL running around at even a jog, grabbing arrows aiming shooting... the thought brings another smile to my lips<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> sry. Throughout history, I have never heard of any true-to-life archers who could do this, maybe archers astride a horse, but definatley none hoofing it so to speak, much less running backwards or firing cross-bodied. Which brings up a suggestion, make at least some of your bow CA's mobile while mounted on a horse or similar mount,( I think carpets should be left out due to they way you are positioned while "mounted. Think someone who has never even seen a large body of water trying to walk around the deck of a small sailboat in the middle of the Atlantic.)</p><p>I do believe that some of the changes that were made, were for character balancing to acomodate PvP, while others were stictly to accomodate the PvE crowd. Pre-DoF, I never met a ranger worth his/her weight, who didn't use pricey poisons, assassins also I suppose, but I rarely came upon any other class besides preds who used or relied upon potions the way preds did posion/potions. From what I remeber of some posts I saw pre-DoF, preds were raising hell about the cost to boost their DPS, then again post-DoF, even though you could kick out some very impressive numbers, that in every case I have had the oppurtunity to witness, was far out-damaging Ice Comet adept 3's and Master 1's. In fact, I can recall seeing a Ranger kicking out an almost 8k hit with an adept 3 version of i believe it was stream it may have been the other big boomer, not for sure though   /shrug.  I am going out on a limb here, but I would assume the Devs, A) tried to put you back into the T2 dps. B) Lower the operating cost with poisons and such, less procs = less expense.to justify the DPS nerf C) alow for different classes to be able to at least have a chance in PvP with you.</p><p>The idea of a melee debuff would seem inappropriate if you are to remain a ranged type combatant. In the same token, mages should have their boomers have a min. range as well.</p><p>Mobile CA's while mounted upon a steed seems a reasonale idea to me.</p><p>Summoning arroows of appropriate lvl seems to be a bit of a free ride. Free ammo that can still pack a pretty good punch? Not a suggetion I ever see being implemented.</p><p>Frontal CA's: You definately need more of them, if not all be frontal. Assassins are the ones who sneak up and stab someone in the back, I like to think of rangers of having more class than that.</p><p>A ranged bow CA that also has a 2-3 sec. stun, provided you are using an arrow that is blunted. Blunted arrow would deal crushing damage.</p><p>A point blank shot seems a fair deal, but I would suggest a high damage low hit CA that cannot be resisted or parried, on say a 15 min timer with a sort duration stun, say 2 sec. 1 min. recast on fail. I'm thinking this would help in PvP cases were someone is smart enough to get close-up and personal. It's how I take down rangers<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Plus it would allow you to provide some big damage against an epic or some such, although it would still be a calculated risk.</p><p>I don't much care for a root/snare, maybe a slow+bleed for soloing.</p><p>An increase of 20%-40% CA damage seems entirely too high. Granted, I am not sure of the numbers you are hitting since KoS, but my guess would be maybe a 5%-8% max. increase. Remeber, I still believe that you should be T2 DPS.</p><p>I would like to see a nice hate transfer buff that you could throw on the tank,(or maybe that annoying dang healer in the group lol,) say maybe 50%-60%.</p><p>Increased crit chance against soft skinned mobs and cloth wearing characters. I think they would need to add a deffensive type proc to cloth armour to compensate for PvP, but seems a reasonable proposition in PvE to me.</p><p>I'm thinking stream of arrows damage should increase throughout the duration of the CA. not sure of actual numbers, but lets say first arrow hits for X damage, each consecutive hit would be X+5%, so X, X+5%,X+10%... maybe a little to powerful, but you get the idea. might require a longer recast, and maybe even a slightly longer recovery time  /shrug</p><p>To try to keep with class balancing, I would suggest a possible small increase in power costs, or a smaller power pool. This is assuming you get some some of the changes I have suggested, otherwise just leave it alone.</p><p>A CA that would cast a short duration pet that instead of attacking when you send it in, would interupt and stun the mob for a very short duration, maybe .5-1.0 sec. and say a 2-3 min recast.</p><p> </p><p>Just my 2cp. I'm sure some of what I said may be contested and discarded as pure crap, but I do honestly believe at least some of my suggestions could be very valuble to you. Please think on these, and modify as you see fit. The goal here is improve the ranger class, but rember for every treat you get, something may be taken away. And then there is always class balancing, and the possible mob changes. I would think a possible high ranged resistance would not be far fetched. I hope that in at least a small way, I have given you something to think on, maybe even provided a few nice suggestions, either way, I do hope SOE will provide you with something to be exited about again.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[TaleraRis]

<div>Fuzzy, we *are* supposed to be Tier 1 DPS. Wherever you saw someone say they saw a dev post saying not, they are wrong. Tier 1 is assassin, ranger, wizard and warlock on EVEN footing. The problem was that rangers were in Tier 0 all on their own and the other three Tier 1 classes were behind. No class in Tier 1 is supposed to be superior in all cases. Situationally, one will be the best, but no single class is meant to have the highest DPS in all circumstances. They made these changes to bring us more in line. Now we're a Tier below where we should be. The things we're asking for will bring us back up to the Tier of damage we're supposed to be in.</div>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Aragorn and Legolas were rangers.... (feel stupid bringin that up but rangers in books?)</p><p>Smed says we were supposed to be t1 dps</p><p>i beleive him yo</p>

[FuzzyChaos]

<div></div><p>A little sleep, and some web hunting, and I finaly found where Moorgard stated that that Rangers were T1 DPS. My appologies. ( although I still think most rangers are just crying over spilt milk lol)</p><p>T1</p><p>Wizard/Warlock</p><p>Assassin/Ranger</p><p>T2</p><p>Conj/Necro (Using Damage Pet)</p><p>Brig/Swash</p><p>T3</p><p>Coercer/Illusionist, Conj/Necro(using Tank Pet)</p><p>Troubador/Dirge</p><p>Bruiser/Monk</p><p>T4</p><p>Berserker/Shadowknight</p><p>Paladin/Guardian</p><p>T5</p><p>Fury/Warden</p><p>Defiler/Mystic</p><p>Inquisitor/Templar</p><p>But I will Qoute Moorgard on this very valuble point, "<font color="#ff0000">Keep in mind that these are not absolutes</font>."</p><p>While I haven't grouped with many rangers in quite some time, I would like to attempt a DPS tier breakdown for each Tier based on what I have seen since the recent changes.</p><p>T1a</p><p>Wiz/Warlock(warlocks seem to be here only when considering multi target encounters, against single target, I would bump them into T1b)</p><p>T1b</p><p>Assassin/Rangrers</p><p>T2</p><p>Conj/Necro/Swash/Brig(Havent had a chance to truely compare these classes)</p><p>T3a</p><p>Bruiser/Monk/Coercer/Illusionist</p><p>T3b</p><p>Troub/Dirge</p><p>T4a</p><p>Berserker/Shadowknight</p><p>T4b</p><p>Paladin/Guardian</p><p>T5a</p><p>Fury/Warden</p><p>T5b</p><p>Defiler/Mystic</p><p>T5c</p><p>Inq/Temp</p><p>This is only a breakdown of DPS by tier, not an overall breakdown. If it was overall, I would have to bump Furys up to T3a, and Wardens T3b. As well as a couple other minor changes.</p><p>You are trying to get your DPS back up to God-like like it once was, yet all things considered, you are still in the top 4 DPS classes. That means you have better DPS than 20 other classes. You wear Chain armour, same as 5 other classes, and of those 5 other classes, only the assassin has equal damage potential. The 6 classes that wear plate armour have nowhere near the damage potential, while the leather equiped classes, (aside from bruiser/monks,) cannot take the damage you can. While the brawler class can sustain damage, they cannot deal as much damage. Cloth wearing classes cannot sustain even half of the damage that you can, but the wiz/warlock are the only ones that can out damage you. My point is that while you may no longer be top dog in DPS, you are still in T1, and fairly well balanced against the other classes. Again, just my 2cp.</p><p>"Keep in mind that these are not absolutes." -Moorgard-</p>

[TaleraRis]

No, we are not Tier 1 DPS. That is why we require adjustments.I don't normally say this, because I try to be fair to people. But please learn something about this class before you go spouting off about it. All you are showing is a gross ignorance of the state of rangers in the game at this particular time.<div></div>

[Bithnar]

<span><blockquote><hr>FuzzyChaos wrote:<div></div><p>You are trying to get your DPS back up to God-like like it once was . .</p><hr></blockquote>I think you need to read the posts on this forum before you go spouting off this stuff.  Most (80%+) of the rangers here would disagree with you.  Most of us understood that we were overpowered.  Most of us dont expect, nor want to be like we were.  We want to be back in our tier again.  If you had taken the time to read these posts you would have realized that but you came in here with this preconceived notion that we want to be back where we were and that is flatly untrue.</span><div></div>

[Lorina]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Lorinati on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:26 PM</span></p>

[Lorina]

<div></div><p><font size="4" color="#0099ff">         I have only been playing my ranger for about two weeks now, but I have realized how much of a pain using our bows can be.  Maybe I'm learning this more since I am on the Vox server and I love my PVP, but when I have one of those wonderful Freeporter's running from me and in my window they aren't that far infront of me, why can't I use my bow.</font></p><p><font size="4" color="#0099ff">         I guess what I am suggesting is: Increase the range on bows.  A short bow to 40 and a longbow to like 65.  This would give us a chance to utilize our bow more often.  We could start with our bow from a distance and we should be able to get another attack or two off before we have to switch over to melee.</font></p><p><font size="4" color="#0099ff">         This is just my 2 cents, but I would love like anyone else here to be able to use our bow more often and to actually be a Ranger.</font></p><p><font size="5" color="#0099ff"></font> </p><p>         </p>

[Arr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>FuzzyChaos wrote:<div></div>T1a<span>Conj/NecroT1b</span><p>Wiz/Warlock(warlocks seem to be here only when considering multi target encounters, against single target, I would bump them into T1b)</p><p>T1c</p><p>Assassin</p><p>T2</p><p>Swash/Brig(Havent had a chance to truely compare these classes)</p><p>T3a</p><p>Bruiser/Monk/Coercer/Illusionist<span>/Berserker</span></p><p>T3b</p><p>Troub/Dirge/Ranger</p><p>T4a</p><p>Shadowknight/Paladin/Guardian</p><p>T5a</p><p>Fury/Warden</p><p>T5b</p><p>Defiler/Mystic</p><p>T5c</p><p>Inq/Temp</p><hr></blockquote>Fixed your little tier chart for ya bud.  no charge at all.  We dont need your 2cp</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Arrow on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:32 PM</span></p>

[TerriBlades]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Arrow wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>FuzzyChaos wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#ff0000">T3a</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Bruiser/Monk/Coercer/Illusionist<span>/Berserker</span></font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">T3b</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Troub/Dirge/Ranger</font></p><hr></blockquote>Fixed your little tier chart for ya bud.  no charge at all.  We dont need your 2cp</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Arrow on <span class="date_text">03-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:32 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You're kidding right? The only time the T3a classes are close to me in DPS is when Im not using poisons. I cant speak on behalf of the Troub, but the Dirge I play with, is NEVER near my DPS. Im not saying we couldnt use a bump... and Summoners definately need to be brought in line (they by far have the best DSP out there currently) but in my experience over the last week, if Im using my poisons Im out DSPing just about everyone else. And yes, this is group and raid alike. Went back and forth with a Warlock during raids over the weekend, and we were both parsing with ACT... actually had quite the conversation about our numbers in between fights. :smileyhappy:

[Arr]

Yeah if your in a raid I'll agree with you that the dirge will never ever be close to you because they have more important things to do than dps, but i group with two very good(and well equipped) dirges in steady exp groups who can consistently keep up with my dps if they aren't afk.<div></div>

[TerriBlades]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Arrow wrote:Yeah if your in a raid I'll agree with you that the dirge will never ever be close to you because they have more important things to do than dps, but i group with two very good(and well equipped) dirges in steady exp groups who can consistently keep up with my dps if they aren't afk.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Im sorry Arrow, but I disagree with you... a guildie of mine is a 64 Dirge, and we group together just about every night, and you know what? Hes never even close to me.  We are the same level, and relatively equally equiped.. I cant say that he's slacking cause hes usually always in the typical scout position right behind the mob.</p><p> </p><p>Nesse</p><p>64 Ranger</p><p>Oasis</p><p> </p>

[Teksun]

I group with a Dirge on occasion, and always out DPS him. I also group with a conjuror on occasion and get out DPS'd by his pet. JUST his pet, thats not counting his DPS. I grouped with one assassin and got within 100 DPS every now and then...<div></div>

[Subtom]

<div>Sounds like the 80%+ who post here need to learn how to play a ranger from the ones that do the Tier1 DPS.</div><div> </div><div>(Hint: those dual wield weapons on your belt, they aren't there to bring the color of your eyes out.)</div><div> </div><div>Kers Greenmist, 65 assassin</div>

[Arr]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>TerriBlades wrote:<blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>Im sorry Arrow, but I disagree with you... a guildie of mine is a 64 Dirge, and we group together just about every night, and you know what? Hes never even close to me.  We are the same level, and relatively equally equiped.. I cant say that he's slacking cause hes usually always in the typical scout position right behind the mob.</p><p></p><p>Nesse</p><p>64 Ranger</p><p>Oasis</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Hey that's fine, you can disagree with me til you are blue in the face, doesn't make me feel bad.  From the sounds of it you want to argue over wether or not a dirge can keep up with us in DPS.  That's fine but i'm not going to waste anymore time over it.  We'll never know until SOE parse every player from every situation and compiles it all, because some people are just better players than others.  Just because random dirge in your guild who you group with every night doesnt come close to you doesn't mean that they can't.  Evidently I dont know how to play my class and you are a much better person than me.  Even though I posted my tier based on my point of view, I'll re-do it specifically for you.</span><span>T1a<span>Conj/Necro/TerriBladesT1b</span><p>Wiz/Warlock(warlocks seem to be here only when considering multi target encounters, against single target, I would bump them into T1b)</p><p>T1c</p><p>Assassin</p><p>T2</p><p>Swash/Brig(Havent had a chance to truely compare these classes)</p><p>T3a</p><p>Bruiser/Monk/Coercer/Illusionist<span>/Berserker</span></p><p>T3b</p><p>Troub/Dirge/Ranger</p><p>T4a</p><p>Shadowknight/Paladin/Guardian</p><p>T5a</p><p>Fury/Warden</p><p>T5b</p><p>Defiler/Mystic</p><p>T5c</p><p>Inq/Temp</p></span></div>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div><p>I solo, and during solo I end up using ranged and melee both, and I'm not Tier 1 DPS by far yet. We do need adjustments.</p><p> </p><p>Also, I've seen mention of some force for rangers coming back using certain AP abilities. Our base DPS should be Tier 1. Poisons should be a bonus. AP abilities should be a bonus. Having an expansion shouldn't be a requirement to be able to play a class at the stated rate of ability.</p>

[Teksun]

<span><blockquote><hr>Subtomic wrote:<div>Sounds like the 80%+ who post here need to learn how to play a ranger from the ones that do the Tier1 DPS.</div><div> </div><div>(Hint: those dual wield weapons on your belt, they aren't there to bring the color of your eyes out.)</div><div> </div><div>Kers Greenmist, 65 assassin</div><hr></blockquote>Sounds like some one needs to read more forums. When I go all out with an Assassin in the group I STILL get out DPS'd by at least 100, AND spend twice the power. That means I can't do SQUAT every 3rd fight. (Hint: Assassin boards are located 3 up)</span><div></div>

[tweety1972]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Subtomic wrote:<div>Sounds like the 80%+ who post here need to learn how to play a ranger from the ones that do the Tier1 DPS.</div><div> </div><div>(Hint: those dual wield weapons on your belt, they aren't there to bring the color of your eyes out.)</div><div> </div><div>Kers Greenmist, 65 assassin</div><hr></blockquote><p>/em smacks forhead, shakes head disbelievingly</p><p>*grumbles quietly*</p><p> </p><p>edited cuz grumbling might offend a few posters and is not needed (puts troll food back in pocket)</p><p>Message Edited by tweety1972 on <span class="date_text">03-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:06 AM</span></p>

[Kala Asuras]

<div></div><p>Ok, so i've been running parses through beta and this past week and a half after it has gone live.  I'll post a few distributions so people can see actually numbers.  We are not T1 dps. Not even close.  I've modified my play style to use more melee and using the larger damage attacks.  I am using legendary poison and switched to Strike of Glox because the piercing debuff increases my dps more than the bite of shissar now that poisons proc less.I was out DPSed two days ago (although not by a huge amount) by an assassin two levels below me in worse gear.  Conj are of course well above the damage I am able to put out.  Anyway here are the parses.I went through about 4 hours of grinding in Sanctum and pulled out average fights from the nightUgug lvl 61 Bruiser (MT)Kroan lvl 62 BerzerkerAnoo lvl 59 WarlockKalara lvl 60 RangerAsoic lvl 61 Conjurer + Silverlining his air petSaltomortale lvl 62 healer (Warden?)</p><img src="http://i2.tinypic.com/qno9xt.jpg"><img src="http://i2.tinypic.com/qnoa4g.jpg"><img src="http://i2.tinypic.com/qnoac4.jpg"><img src="http://i2.tinypic.com/qnobpu.jpg"><div></div>

[Carna]

<div></div>That pet is just wrong on so many levels... did the devs learn nothing from EQ1?

[Sirlutt]

great post Kalara.. that highlights pretty much what I have been seeing.. conj pets do FAR too much damage... not to mention on a solo level they keep the mobs away from the conjwe need a pet.. each tier we should get some kind of pet that tanks, does a little DPS but mainly lets us back up and shoot arrows.<div></div>

[Kala Asuras]

Now I'm not going to be calling for any nerfs.  Conjurers know they are overpowered and are expecting a bit of a change although I am puzzled by the recent notes mentioning an increase in their pet's damage <span>:smileysurprised:</span>.  What I want to point out is where we are falling when compaired to other classes that have this amazing utility called tanking.<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>  I also want to point out that my piercing debuffs were surely adding to the conj damage.<div></div>