Can we still do our job? (No rants here, pls)

[Jay]

<div>First: I'm not going to tell anyone how to post, but I'm going to ask that you keep replies to THIS thread in the constructive and mature category. Go ahead and vent, rage, throw the tantrum if you need to - there are PLENTY of threads for that already. I'd like this one to be informative and help us answer some questions. Please respect that.</div><div> </div><div>Second: I know we're all seeing drastically reduced numbers, but IMO, comparing your DPS now with your DPS last week is just plain folly. Of course it's going to be much, much lower. We knew that. We were overpowered, now we're not. You can disagree all you want with how SOE accomplished "fixing" us, but just accept that the DPS we were doing is thing of the past. If you needed to be top dog in every group or raid to enjoy your toon, I'm sorry, but you probably should look elsewhere. I hear Baskin-Robbins is offering a great deal on summoners this month. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>We need to determine if the pendulum swung too far in reducing our DPS, and if it did, we need to figure out how to restore it to the level where we belong. I realize some of these questions will take more time testing and parsing to really answer, and that's fine. No hurry here. I'm looking for informative feedback derived from direct, firsthand experience. I'm also looking for information across levels and equipment - not just the end-game crowd.</div><div> </div><div>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?</div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?</div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?</div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?</div><div> </div><div>Hoping that at least some of you can be level-headed enough to provide helpful information so we can identify the biggest problem areas. I know everyone is freaking out right now, that's fine, I'm not happy myself - and I encourage you to work out that frustration and anger in whatever way you see fit - but please don't go off on flame-fests and rants here; plenty of other threads for that.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks for your consideration and assistance.</div>

[Nimana]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>With regard to your question number 3, I've taken the liberty to copy/paste what I wrote in another thread on this board:</p><p> </p><div>Having experimented some  in SS with my lvl 50 ranger, I think rangers' soloing ability (at least at that level) is okay. Group encounters are challenging, but even conned solo mobs doesn't make me sweat. I find that I'm able to kill lvl 50 one arrow up heroics like sinister ghouls without too much hassle.  I'm also able to deal with lvl 50 2 arrow ups heroics like Anaz Mal carcasses without getting in trouble. I have to kite these mobs of course, which always involve the risk of adds. I have tried soloing the exiled Kromtorrs (lvl 50 heroics, 3 ups) and the specters (lvl 47/48 heroics, 3 ups) without any luck. I don't consider myself a good soloer though, and as I'm in a guild with no alcemists and there were no stun poisons available for sale on Spiltpaw when I was experimenting, it may be doable (brought some of these mobs into orange before dying). My ranger has only adept 1 CAs and no pristine/fabled gear.</div><div> </div><div>How our dps compares to other classes in groups/raids I have not had the chance to test out yet, so I can't answer questions 1 and 4.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Morningstar,</div><div>50 ranger,</div><div>Splitpaw</div><div>(Not listing my 11 other toons! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</div><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:31 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">09-13-2005</span><span class="time_text">07:33 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:37 AM</span></p>

[Imlach]

<p>No...</p><p>and trying to be mature, i dont think you ever played a ranger in any kind of RP game</p><p>*sighs and shake head*</p><p>i hope you find answers you seek</p>

[Fennir]

<div></div>I really felt like being constructive.  I really did.   Played yesterday and just don't feel like it.I agree with everyone who said we are 'playable.'  So is checkers but I'm not gonna do that for a couple hours every night, and I don't know how much longer I'll feel like levelling a DPS class who sucks at DPS.I was gonna post more parses and stuff that shows exactly why we suck now but it's too depressing.   I'm glad I have guildies who will group with me and I'm glad I lead raids cuz I'd definitely be picked last for dodgeball, if you know what I mean.  I feel even worse for those who don't have the gear I do, because it must be even more of a pain.If we get fixed soon I may stick with the class but it's gonna be an easy decision if they don't acknowledge how badly we're hurting now.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:34 AM</span></p>

[klepp]

<div></div><p>I'm afraid to answer,  being honest may reduce my chances of getting groups less than is the case now.  Anyhow here goes.</p><p>1. depends who you ask, are there "classe'S" that do it better now? yes by quite a margin.  If nothing else is lfg than we can keep up with bruisers and rogue's and bards now though.  Assuming we spend some $$ on poison anyhow.</p><p>2. define broken?  If you mean all CA casting times were increased, power costs were added where they werent before, our trap was nerfed in radius, we cant use our last mobile CA on the move anymore, primal agility has been reduced in effectiveness, or trick shot now has 1/2 the hate gain timer and doenst upgrade the hate %age as its upgraded.. then yea... we got some broken [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</p><p>3. well.. if its a green and we want to spend a minute.. sure.  I fought a blue single up arrow solo mob yesterday and it beat me within 20%hp.  I could kite it in circles with auto attack and spend 20 mins on it but.. umm nah.  For the record i have 9 masters, rest adept3 and atleast 1/2 fabled gear, rest legendary. </p><p>4. again depends on who you ask, prior to kos.. i had the guild conjurer constantly forcing me to pull aggro trying to outdps him =p although in doing so i had to spend a few plat a day in poisons.  If i didnt have those, he wouldve beaten me, every time.. as well as many other classes.  So.. if i were a raid leader, sure id take a scout, but at the moment it wouldnt be a ranger.. only plus is they can do a little damage while staying out of AE.  Then again so can a mage or summoner and it'll be much better damage.</p>

[Racmo]

<div>I think it would be helpful if people also posted their level and the difference between you and the mob you were fighting.  Also, don't make the assumption that if you just call out the mob everyone knows what level or strength it was.  I don't anyway. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Having said that, I don't know if you want to hear from rangers my level,  I'm a 44 ranger.  I upgrade all my equipment every 10 levels.</div><div> </div><div>Last night I struggled soloing blues and greens.  if they were no up arrow heroic it really was 50/50.  Now, I wasn't using the right poisons as I haven't had time to switch from high DD to low DD.  I also wasn't using the tier appropriate arrows.  Will that change things significantly, I don't know.  All I do know is that the mob is getting to me low green/high yellow and I take a beating trying to kill it with melee.</div><div> </div><div>And unlike the above poster, I struggled more Soloing than grouping.  But I'm wondering if that's not because someone was picking up my slack.</div><div> </div><div>Tobi</div><div>44 Ranger</div>

[Jay]

<div></div><p>Ha, Tobias - you were one of the ppl I had in mind when writing that. "I know guys like Dem and Tobias will come through and help with useful info!" LOL</p><p>So if <strong>you</strong> are that close to throwing in the towel, that's bad news indeed. You say we suck at DPS - and I'm not going to disagree - but what exactly does that mean? We suck compared to the classes we should be in line with - sorcs and assassins? Or we suck compared to how we used to do?</p>

[ShadarLoco]

<div></div><div><div>state of rangers as I see it.  level 60 ranger with 3 arrow masters and some fable using stun/debuff and dmg poisons</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>my dps for soloing is around 128-318       58^^^ almost owned me up</div><div> </div><div>I can kill a level 67 normal mob but it took 8 min and almost died at.</div><div> </div><div>group dps ranged badly from as low as 98-390 with a high dps of 518 on level 64 ^^^'s</div><div> </div><div>Raid dps lower then group because all our arrow attack cast times have been rased to 3 seconds includeing stream of arrows to counter the new proc changes IE.     (CA cast time / 3)  X proc chance</div><div> </div><div>procs are next to non existent now in a tipical fight my poison proced 5 times and arrow frenzy proc 6 I had more CA's then procs</div><div> </div><div>our trap spells set off range has been reduced so that the mob has to walk right over the middle of it to set it off.</div><div> </div><div>sence we only get like what 4 arrow attacks and all our AA's But the AGI line deal with melee weapons Looks like they are trying to make us into brigends.</div><div> </div><div>I grouped with a guild wizzard last night he did around 500-800 dps every fight consestaly I on the other hand did 98dps low avarage of 128-230 with a few into the 300's  and 2 times i hit 500 dps. on level 64 ^^^</div></div><p>Message Edited by ShadarLocoth on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:59 PM</span></p>

[klepp]

<div></div><p>we suck compared to almost everything now friend.  download combatstats, get in a group.. and parse for yourself.  All the non rangers and sony fanboi's cant really say much about the numbers can they?</p><p>we suck bad compared to how we used to be.. obviously</p><p>and we suck a little worse than the rest of the t1 and t2 damage classes now.   This is while spending money on poison and more arrows now since we do less damage. Again, if we didnt buy poisons.. we'd be t4 or t5 if theres such a thing =p</p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div>First: I'm not going to tell anyone how to post, but I'm going to ask that you keep replies to THIS thread in the constructive and mature category. Go ahead and vent, rage, throw the tantrum if you need to - there are PLENTY of threads for that already. I'd like this one to be informative and help us answer some questions. Please respect that.</div><div> </div><div>Second: I know we're all seeing drastically reduced numbers, but IMO, comparing your DPS now with your DPS last week is just plain folly. Of course it's going to be much, much lower. We knew that. We were overpowered, now we're not. You can disagree all you want with how SOE accomplished "fixing" us, but just accept that the DPS we were doing is thing of the past. If you needed to be top dog in every group or raid to enjoy your toon, I'm sorry, but you probably should look elsewhere. I hear Baskin-Robbins is offering a great deal on summoners this month. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>We need to determine if the pendulum swung too far in reducing our DPS, and if it did, we need to figure out how to restore it to the level where we belong. I realize some of these questions will take more time testing and parsing to really answer, and that's fine. No hurry here. I'm looking for informative feedback derived from direct, firsthand experience. I'm also looking for information across levels and equipment - not just the end-game crowd.</div><div> </div><div>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?</div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?</div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?</div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?</div><div> </div><div>Hoping that at least some of you can be level-headed enough to provide helpful information so we can identify the biggest problem areas. I know everyone is freaking out right now, that's fine, I'm not happy myself - and I encourage you to work out that frustration and anger in whatever way you see fit - but please don't go off on flame-fests and rants here; plenty of other threads for that.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks for your consideration and assistance.</div><hr></blockquote>I always like reading your stuff Jay.1. Yes, butno where near as effectively as others can.  We clearly arent T1 DPS right now.2. Broken or were nerf'd a little hard?  I think cheap shot needs to be a 3-4 second stun, if your lagging at all you cant land a back attack.  I miss being able to fire that one debuff while backing up, it was a life saver while soloing... a number of times it was the diff between living and dieing.3.  I'd say yes for blues and below, though no where near as effectively as other classes (as I watched a conjuror 2 levels below me last night take on 6 mobs i was battling to kill one at a time).  Whites and yellow, or anything with an up arrow, you better have all your skill timers refreshed.  Our defensive stance has a use now it seems as I last alot longer with it up, though the fights are alot slower too.  Basically the issue with soloing is the group/raid ranger and the solo ranger are completely diff.  In a group/raid you can use your positionals and ranged.  Solo your a [Removed for Content]'d assassin wanna be (as in no where near as good as assassins, not that assassins are gimpd) opening up with one, maybe 2 ranged and then cycling through 4 or 5 rather ineffective melee skills hoping to last long enough for a poison proc or 2 to land.  Its about luck of the proc.4.  I havent raided yet, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no.  I just think the reduction in the damage was too large.  Pre Lu20 raiding guilds were recruiting rangers like mad, post LU20 I am willing to bet a number of those positions will be opened up for casters and it'll go back to being wizards/warlocks/conjurors comprising 75% of your raid DPS and scouts the other 25% mainly for their utility.  I have no solid facts for this apart from the obvious 50% reduction in our damage which is the only thing we bring to a raid.I'm pretty sure were not intended to remain like this.  We are back to pre LU13 levels.  I just dont "feel" like a ranged DPS anymore.  Previously i changed my surname to "Heavy'Artillery" because thats exactly how i felt.. i felt i was bringing the pain and raining down destruction.  I just dont feel that now... and the numbers back it up.  Its not about numbers or DPS tiers its about fun and the ranger isnt alot of fun when your soloing concists of launching one maybe 2 ranged attacks then cycling through 5 flimsy melee attacks.  Its not a dig at assassins but I dont want to melee.The solution I feel is to increase our CA damage to make up 25% of that 50% reduction we have seen and to allow us to use bow attacks at point blank.  That really only affects the solo ranger because in a group or raid your back and behind the mob anyhow.  I'd leave SoA at non point blank though, it was far too powerful when it was able to be used point blank, although I think it was the procs that made it too powerful. Bottom line is we need a damage tweak and something to be done about soloing, its not fun at the moment and I want to have fun.</span></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Racmoor wrote:<div> </div><div>Having said that, I don't know if you want to hear from rangers my level,  I'm a 44 ranger.  I upgrade all my equipment every 10 levels.</div><div> </div><div><hr></div></blockquote><p>Yep, definitely want to hear across all levels. And I agree that providing the context of the data you're sharing is very helpful. Your level, relative grade of your equipment, and the level / con of the mob you're fighting are all very useful. Thanks for responding.</p>

[Fennir]

Last night I was routinely destroyed by our conj and mostly competing with our monk.I would often attack a mob with a high damage attack and lose agro a split second later to our fury.I won't get to test raids until the weekend so I really don't have any way to parse extended DPS but I'll put it this way:  pre-KoS I was thinking about the WIS AA line after AGI, but now I laugh to even think about it.  We now have a HO flipper and a stealth instead of 2 deagros and we sure as [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] don't need anymore.<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><p><font color="#ff0000">Puts mature hat on  <  aaack makes my head itch ></font></p><p>To all the people who explained to the devs what a ranger is...  Who provided parses...  Who spelled it out prior to the update...  They did not get it at all.</p><p><font color="#ff0000"><twitching feverishly fighting urge to use curse words></font></p><p>I was killed by down arrow mobs 4 levels below me last night... about 3 times.  Sure I killed quite a few but I felt like I was playing my guardian soloing without plate.  My tripple arrow CA seemed like my guardian pulling with a bow to mele it to death. </p><p>I tried ascending and descending poisons looking for a better setup... switch gear leaning more twords str and getting rid of INT gear I had aquired.  Not much help.  although my early finding show descending poison 4tehwin.</p><p>We are not DPS anymore.  Never where or are utility now.  Dunno what to classify us as.</p>

[ryan]

Jay42 first and foremost please don't think any of what I will say is a flame to you it most certainly is not. You have your opinion and you're perfectly welcome to have it. (that goes for anyone)I sincerely fear for the Rangers ability to performs his function. I have posted in another thread on this board and on the LU20 feedback form on the dev table board. Here's my arguments in a nutshel. Rangers serve only 1 purpose on a raid and that's burning down the hp of the mob. It's the ONLY thing we bring to the table. No heals, no buffs, no debufs no rezes Just pure and simple DPS. . . That's it. We don't offer that effectively anymore. That's the nutt shell complaint.Now some say "Rangers were overpowered and getting egotistical and becomming jerks and they needed to be put in their place!" Well some call it overpowered but you know what I saw it as the ONLY THING we could do we did well. pre LU 20 we brought something to the table. We were wanted in raids and groups. Some did get egotistical and acted like idiots (but that happens everywhere a few gaurds names come to mind) We did the job that we were brought in to do well. I was NOT ALWAYS top dps'er in our parses during raids. Despite what all those trying to down rangers were saying. Sure i was mostly the top and if i wasn't 1 i was in the top 3 or 4 but that's where i SHOULD BE. it's the only thing i do.Can I solo now? Sure. I can solo a lvl 57 mob. I think grinding to 70 on those will take me a bit. But hey it's about grouping anyway right. . . sure ok why solo. . .that's no fun anyway just pop in a group. . .wait. . . someone. . .anyone wana group with me!?!?!  *cricket chirp* anyone?!?!We're not picked in groups because the ONLY thing we bring to the table we now can't do effectively. A group thinks we got our tank we got our healer we got our buffs and debuffs let's get us someone to burn those hps off. . . used to be rangers were viable to fill that role. . not anymore.Anyway If you read my other posts on this topic some are rantish and some are a bit whinny but this has really hurt our class. A class i have always loved (was a ranger in eq 1 and in EQ OA and here). It's a bit sad to me. I'll stop now as I could drivel on about the sad days for a while.<div></div>

[Graven55]

<div></div><p>Trying hard to be constructive....here goes.</p><p>Can we still kill things?  Yes....that's about where it ends.  I can't solo anymore at any level of efficiency...oh if I kite it around for a week while praying for something to proc to get me back into the fight I can kill even con solo mobs, but yellows and ^ are basically a thing of the past.</p><p>As for functionality, could we function as the DPS role in a group?  Yes.  Will any group not started by you ever choose you over one of these classes:  Conj, Necro, Wizard, Zerker, Monk, Bruiser, Bard, Assassin, Brigand, Swashy....cough, guardian?  I don't know.  I know, if I have that 1 slot left to fill and I'm tossed up on which DPS ish class to grab, I'll take the one with more utility unless there is a big difference in the damage dealt.  Ranger no longer deals much more (or deals less) than the above listed classes, and we can do nothing else of value to a grp.  (Don't give me pathfinding, evac, snipe and heat debuff...those are not deal breakers).</p><p>So can we function?  Yes.  Can we grp?  Yes, in a grp that has five slots and you're the only non-[Removed for Content] on server who is LFG.  Can we raid?  I don't know yet, if I was putting together a raid and had only 24 slots to fill and say, 30 ppl who could go on the raid....the ranger would be low on my list of needed classes...guess if there were a lot of ranging fights there'd still be reason to bring us, or maybe bring 1 wizard to drop the heat debuff for the real DPS classes....</p><p>I tried...but it's so hard to stay constructive right now.</p>

[Sphiriah]

<div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sphiriah on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:47 AM</span></p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sphiriah wrote:<div></div><p>Alright, i am going to make this last post, and then never look at these boards again.</p><p>ANY one of you rangers who is having trouble with mobs that are green or blue to you seriously needs to evaluate if a ranger is the class for you.</p><p>The ONLY change that has affected me in this patch is the ability to proc off multiple hits and less procs from CA's .. however i still proc a ton with normal range attack and that is all we need. We were doing WAY too much damage.</p><p>Now about the soloing, i spent most of the day yesterday and earlier today soloing even con solo mobs, blue^ and ^^ mobs, and even a couple yellow^. I'm level 50 btw. Sure, we kill slower but not THAT slow. You're dying to blue mobs? Why? Nothing has changed except your damage .. mobs did not get buffed, your run speed did not get nerfed .. there is NO reason you should be getting killed or almost dying.</p><p>I have less DPS than i did, but i am still the top when it comes to groups.</p><p>Our DPS is fine, and i am happy that's all.</p><hr></blockquote>totally appreciate your POV.  Fight some of the even con and ^ in KOS when your about 55 and see if that still holds true.  They are alot harder than the POF mobs.  Not a dig, just an observation that should be included with your slurr to Rangers who've been here since the start.</span></div>

[Fennir]

Last night I finally started owning the #1 DPS spot when most of our static group had gone to bed and it was just me and the templar.Oh and I can solo fine, but that's because I rock and would never admit it if I died to a blue down arrow mob.Like I said:  <b>checkers is <i>playable</i>.  so are we.</b><div></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><p>Thanks everyone for the responses, keep them coming. FWIW, I appreciate keeping the rants and flames out of here so far. These are the kind of posts I'm looking for. I'm not asking that you put the best face on everything; I want honest assessments. Saying "I don't feel effective in a group, as I'm routinely outdamaged by rogues and brawlers" is not a rant or whining, that's just an honest observation. Saying " I HATE SOE U [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]S SUCK THIS IS [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] UR STUPID IM QUITTING THIS [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] GAME HOORAY FOR VANGUARD" is...well, not so useful.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And for the record, I'm not at all happy with this. I'm not raging or tearing my hair out, I'm more resigned and weary and depressed than anything. But I feel that we have a responsibility here, and I'm trying my best to live up to that.</p>

[davian9]

<div></div><p>"<strong> level 60 ranger with 3 arrow masters and some fable using stun/debuff and dmg poisons</strong></p><div><strong>my dps for soloing is around 128-318    <font color="#ff0000">58^^^ almost owned me</font> up</strong></div><div><strong></strong> </div><div><strong>I can kill a level 67 normal mob but it took 8 min and almost died at."</strong></div><div><strong></strong> </div><div>My lvl 60 asn would get eaten alive by a lvl 58^^^ if i soloed it and im not gimped and I do know how to play my class.</div><p>Point of view from someone who has both an assassin (main 60) and a ranger (alt 45).  Pre Lu20 my ranger could solo ^^^ heroic mobs 4-5 lvls above me with relative ease (and I am in no way uber or well equiped).  To be honist though when using the term soloability, it realy should not mean can you still solo ^^^ blue or higher mobs.  Rangers (and all other classes) are not suppost to solo those types of mobs.  I know there are some classes that still can (and I honistly believe that eventually they will be prevented from doing so).  My assassin who has close to 50% fabled gear and many adept 3 and some master spells can not now and could never solo blue or higher ^^^ mobs (and assassins are suppost to be the evil counterpart of rangers).  And to be honist thats the way it should be.</p><p>Did rangers get a BIG nerf in this expansion, Yes.  Was the nerf to big, probably.  But what youhave to realize is what the OP said.  Dont base what you can do now on what you could do a week ago because a week ago the ranger class was very overpowered. </p><p>After LU20 my 45 ranger can solo even white con mobs with little problem at all.  I know it a far cary from what we could do previously but pre LU20 we were soloing things we realy should not have been able to (Im sure SOE did not mean for Roost to be solo farmed).</p><p><strong></strong> </p>

[klepp]

<div></div><div>lol spiy, your dps is top my [Removed for Content].. who ar eyou grouping with?  and only changes were hte proc rate? EXACTLY thats wher ewe lost 50% dps lol.   And some utility, we used to be able to count on debuff poisons ect. </div><div>oh and again, the only changes??</div><div>how about debilitating arrow? cant use that on the move anymore</div><div>how about stream? increased cast time + power cost associated with each shot</div><div>how bout trick shot? 1/2 in duration and hate increase reduced</div><div>how bout primal agility? reduced</div><div>how about our trap? radius reduced to single mob only</div><div> </div><div>yea.... so.... go on about how we are still the same .. lol</div>

[Morgonn]

<b>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?</b>That depends on how you define adequately.  By the definition of whether my regular group can take on and succeed against the targets that we could before, then definitely NO.  My dps contribution to my group is marginal at best at the moment.  As it stands, my group would be better with another class filling my role; one that brings more utility to the group than a ranger does (as much as I despise saying that).<b>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?</b>As far as a skill being "broken" none of mine are broken to the point of inoperability, but my bow arts are so subpar that they do fit the definition.  I simply cannot provide the dps support needed as they are at this time.  Also, rangers are not a melee dps class.  Our in-fighting abilities were never meant to provide the larger part of our contribution.  If the bow arts we depended on for so long are going to remain as they are, then we are going to need a boost in melee capabilities.<b>3. Are you able to solo effectively?</b>Yes, but not against targets that provide a decent trade off.  The effort involved now far outweighs the time involved in taking down worthwhile targets.  I simply do not have the melee skills necessary.<b>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?</b>Do not raid.  As an addendum here, I do not know how the developers came to the conclusions they did, but I wonder if they took into account the number of rangers that are pretty much as I am--non raiding, geared decently but by NO means geared for any raid application.  The change that has occurred has impacted casual players such as myself (2 Masters, 2 Adept 3, rest Adept 1 skills) even more than it has those that are far better geared.  Those rangers who simply do not have the resources available to them to gear up in armor, weaponry and CA levels are feeling an even greater pinch.<b>We need to determine if the pendulum swung too far in reducing our DPS, and if it did, we need to figure out how to restore it to the level where we belong.</b>In my opinion yes it swung too far.  I think we're going to need upgrades in both our bow arts and our melee capabilities.  Whether we get any of that needed upgrade remains to be seen.Just my 2cp worth <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Zholain]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Jay42 wrote:</font><div><font size="2">First: I'm not going to tell anyone how to post, but I'm going to ask that you keep replies to THIS thread in the constructive and mature category. Go ahead and vent, rage, throw the tantrum if you need to - there are PLENTY of threads for that already. I'd like this one to be informative and help us answer some questions. Please respect that.</font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">Second: I know we're all seeing drastically reduced numbers, but IMO, comparing your DPS now with your DPS last week is just plain folly. Of course it's going to be much, much lower. We knew that. We were overpowered, now we're not. You can disagree all you want with how SOE accomplished "fixing" us, but just accept that the DPS we were doing is thing of the past. If you needed to be top dog in every group or raid to enjoy your toon, I'm sorry, but you probably should look elsewhere. I hear Baskin-Robbins is offering a great deal on summoners this month. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">We need to determine if the pendulum swung too far in reducing our DPS, and if it did, we need to figure out how to restore it to the level where we belong. I realize some of these questions will take more time testing and parsing to really answer, and that's fine. No hurry here. I'm looking for informative feedback derived from direct, firsthand experience. I'm also looking for information across levels and equipment - not just the end-game crowd.</font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?<font color="#ffff00">It's so hard to tell so far.  I played quite a bit last night, or at least tried to.  But the darned new zones were so laggy, it would take 2 full seconds after I clicked a button before the CA would even fire.  We actually got into an instance and the lag was not bad, but the server crashed after being in there for only a few minutes.</font></font><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffff00">  We had a conjurer in our group, and the conjurer was clearly doing more damage than me, although I wasn't running a parser to be able to give numbers.</font></font></span><font size="2"><font color="#ffff00">  However, for the few minutes we were there, it just didn't 'feel' right.  Last night, it just wasn't fun...at all.  Several times, I found myself thinking "I wonder where the craftsman merchant is so I can go tradeskill."</font></font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?<font color="#ffff00">The only thing I noticed was an oddity with food and drink.  But I am contributing that to the zone crash (not the server crash..this was a while before that) and there was apparently a 2 or 3 minute rollback.</font></font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">3. Are you able to solo effectively?<font color="#ffff00">I didn't try soloing at all.</font></font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?<font color="#ffff00">It will probably be Friday before I'm able to raid again.  I'll definitely try to add to this post after that.</font></font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">Hoping that at least some of you can be level-headed enough to provide helpful information so we can identify the biggest problem areas. I know everyone is freaking out right now, that's fine, I'm not happy myself - and I encourage you to work out that frustration and anger in whatever way you see fit - but please don't go off on flame-fests and rants here; plenty of other threads for that.</font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">Thanks for your consideration and assistance.</font></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00"><font size="2">My biggest complaint was the general feel of playing.  As I mentioned, it just wasn't fun.  Also, I didn't feel like I was contributing to the group.  In the past, if the group got an unexpected add, my groupmates could depend on me to take the add down quickly (at the risk of gaining agro) before the tank was in danger of death.  Last night that was definitely not the case.  I literally TRIED to gain agro the entire night, and could only manage it once..and that was using Sniper Shot after the tank got the first taunt off, then Culling the Weak, then Triple Fire, then cycled through the rest of archery CA's.  After going through all of those, there was a few seconds of combat.  I don't remember which CA it was, but I hit the mob with it and got agro when the mob had just a sliver of health.  One of the other group members downed him before he got to me.  This was a 64^^^ btw.Sorry Kaeros, I know I sound a bit down on things, but quite honestly, that's how I feel about it after the first night of play.Edit: For the poster that asked for level of mobs being fought.  We were fighting 64 and 65 ^^ and ^^^'s most of the night.</font></font></span></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p>

[Dapcam]

<div></div><p>I haven't played enough to come to any conclusions yet (on Runnyeye so the autopatching messed up and crashed me on entry to Bonemire whenever I logged in...different story).  I may edit with parses and other evidence later when I am online, but for now I have a couple of thoughts on the situation.  For what it's worth I think the pendulum has swung too far already, and is probably still continuing with each new ding.</p><p> </p><p>First, the assumptions I've made on how SOE implemented the changes</p><ol><li>Procs off multi-hits will only trip on the first hit</li><li>Proc normalisation for Autoattack remains unchanged (nb. remember the quote "autoattack will be more meaningful" - will come back to this)</li><li>Proc normalisation for CAs is based off a magic number plucked out of the ether by a savant developer</li><li>Proc changes will affect all applicable classes, but rangers were affected most due to mechanics</li></ol><p> </p><p>On to what this means as far as I'm concerned - remember this is all suggestion/opinion at this stage.  I have no concrete figures so it is NOT gospel.</p><ol><li>If, for example, Triple Shot has a chance to FAIL on each arrow hit, it should also have a chance to PROC on each arrow hit.  You don't fire a few arrows and arbitrarily decide, post shot, that you've already hurt the mob for a bit of poison so you'll take it easy for the rest of the volley, poor dear.</li><li>If this is really the case, fine and dandy.  If this is a move to Autoattack being more meaningful for us (bearing in mind how much CAs did, including procs, and how little AA was in comparison) then they can nudge us back on track by giving us a Conc. slot buff similar in effect to Focus Fire.  Increase haste and DPS by x%.  Fine tuning can be done as they go</li><li>This is the kicker.  Assuming procs normalised off the (Delay/3) formula pre-LU20, and now CAs come off (Cast-Time/Magic Number) all they have to do to swing/fine-tune ranger DPS is alter the Magic Number.</li><li>See number 3.  The Magic Number can be tinkered with to a fairly large degree and will only significantly affect Rangers.</li></ol><p> </p><p>I, like others here, will be sticking with the ranger even if i am as useful as an armpit in raids.  I think we got a raw deal out of this, but it's all swings and roundabouts.  SOE don't seem to view positive tweaking in the same light as nerfs (increase T1 classes spell/CA damage until it was about in line with ours pre-LU20) so if you are bitter about the changes, look on the bright side - those who are better than you will only be there until the next expansion pack <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[dbmoreland]

<div></div>Jay, here are my answers, see my "first observations" post for more details.1. I have not had a chance to group yet, I will get back to you.2. Loosing the ability to use dibilitation arrow "on the move" was a big hit. Now I only have one CA left that I can reliably get off during the 2 seconds that an up arrow mob is stuned.3. I can still solo mob encounters designed for individuals, one up arrow white, one no arrow yellow, multi mob down arrow blues, I can do them all with no problems. It does take me a LITTLE longer and I need to "set up" for each and every fight now, I can't just go from one to the next without a break or too much thought. As for heroics, I used to be able to solo blue triple ups IF I had the "perfect" set up. I may be able to do this some day in the future when I figure it all out again, but for now, forget it. The days of soloing heroics or killing a hundred individual mobs in a row without a break are over, at least for me.4. Never raided very much and I have not since LU20 yet. Perhaps after this weekend I can let you know.In the end I do NOT see MOST of the LU20 changes as a problem. In fact because I have to think a little more about each encounter now I am actualy having MORE fun playing my ranger.Hope this helps,<div></div><p>Message Edited by dbmoreland on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:16 AM</span></p>

[Karvar]

<div></div><p>Jay42 … well I going to step in it and post here… and as for you not telling some one how to post .. that is a first … you flamed so many rangers in the past that cried nerf it is not even funny .. nah not a real big fan of yours or how you responses to other rangers that posted concerns about nerfs in the past…</p><p> </p><p>But with that said it is not about you jay42 (but I had to say it, god some of your post really irk the heck out of me)… and you do ask valid questions in your post here… so I will do the best I can to answer it from a feedback view that SOE may be able to use…</p><p> </p><p>Now this is based on working on the signature hat quest and the great nest instance.. with one group 1 templar .. 1 guard .. 1 swash… 1 pally … 1 ranger… 1 fury ..</p><p> </p><ol><li><span>Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?</span></li></ol><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Not really, I was having a hard time reaching 300dps last night… I was always beaten by the swash.. and the guard and pally where close to me on many fights… Now let me say this with a grain of salt .. everyone was having hard time hitting the mobs… so everyone’s dps was down across the boards and we did fight a lot 3triple up 65 to 66 heroics.. Now the named and heroic outside the nest of great egg seemed harder to hit than the ones in the nest … we where connecting better in the instances or a slight improvement of over all dps for group .. not sure why that was … but A TON of my arrows missed… my poison proc was none existence I shot thru a 18 slot quiver full and still had 23 procs left on a 200 t6 rare poison.. that is some 1800 arrows and still not go thru one poison application? That is just wrong.. (bow was Pristine imb ironwood longbow) … now I was doing much better dps with my melee weapons … ( forget named but the DW from god king in my primary only had it 3 days so sorry forgot name) … that was hitting well and so was dire blade Master II… but we simply do not have enough CA to go melee and do our jobs… are ranged dps is really screwed right now … </span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Now let me say this … a lot of this .. a ton of this has to do with Levels .. and just being able to hit a mob… and not be parried every time .. and that I know from being in KOS beta … so it may be a fact that you just have to suffer and claw way to a higher lvls to a point where mobs will rarely if ever parry your bow shots.. </span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>But to answer your question jay42.. can we fill DPS role? Others do a much better job of it … but yes we still do damage.. but you all better get your agi up and power pools up… cause all you that sold out on str.. are going to find your running out of power in long named fights… </span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>We got thru the ring event and lost to the final mob for the signature quest .. we will try again tonight .. but it is very difficult and we were a very good team and experienced and I already new the instance inside and out … so getting to the end and losing with mob at 45% was really good for us I believe .. but it was hard … fun … frustrating … upset you to no end about your class experience<span>  </span>… but doable…</span></p><p><span></span> </p><ol><li><span>What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?</span></li></ol><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Trap was not working on about 50% of the pools they mobs would just stand on it .. other times it would go off.. </span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>On lvl 62 to 65 ^^^ heroic mobs … I would use SToA <span> </span>and maybe 3 or 4 arrows would hit out all I shot and if I was really lucky I would get one poison proc. Saw really very few second arrow shots from our offensive stance… bow very rarely proced… I was depending totally on my CA base damage to hit and most all of that was parried or flat out missed… Omg .. out of 5 snipers during the night 2 hit … now that is really a upsetting.. 15 mins or saving it for the right time .. and Miss …</span></p><p><span></span> </p><ol><li><span>Are you able to solo effectively? </span></li></ol><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Not really .. but Solo content is manageable … heroic content is it is triple down is doable … but it is all really risky and not worth the time .. get a healer to duo with at least and your enjoyment factor will go up greatly…</span></p><p><span></span> </p><ol><li><span>If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?</span></li></ol><p><span></span> </p><p><span>As a player … always..</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>The ranger class as a viable raid DPS … well we taken a huge hit here … now our guilds will still keep us and use us … but we will not hold the spots we once did .. no way … we are back to the filler spots on a raid.. not a treasured raid asset member any more.. </span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Ok well this is depressing the heck out of me … so this is where I going to end the post … hope that helps answer some of your questions jay42</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Karvar Blackhawk</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Unrest<font color="#000000"></font></span></p>

[Blackin_DeMast]

<div></div><p>OK.  Tied a couple of solo and group fights yesterday and got parses.</p><div>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups? No.  My group DPS on multiple mob encounters was averaging 250.  When Storm of arrows was up I could kick it up to 400, but this is not anywhere where we need to be for XP groups.  Solo mob encounters was a little better, but still in the 300 to 400 range.  This was after chaining all my CAs and even throwing in longshank, Cripling Blade.  Stream is almost worthless.  The DPS off of it is only 230 at Adept III, not including any procs it might have.  Mobs ranged from even con to a couple levels above me.</div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?  Sharp Shoot.  THis puts out a measly 300 to 400 damage and almost never procs anything.  Tripple fire cold do with a boost too.  It is sitting around the mid 1000's but once again doesnt usually proc anything.  The recast on Stealthy fire should also be lowered so we can use it more often.  Stelahty Fire and Sniping Shot were stapples to my fights last night.</div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?  OK.  lets get thsi straight.  If you are going to sk if you can solo effectivly it should be against down arrow or no arrow mobs, even the occasional ^ would be fin, but Devs don't care if you can't solo ^^^s.  In fact when ppl post saying they can's solo ^^^ anymore it just gives Devs more reason to think tht what they did is right. </div><div> </div><div>The first mob I tried was a no arrow yellow con mob that was 4 levels above me.  This means it was just out of orange range.  I died.  Part of this was the fact that I had not changed my play style and opened with Tripple Arrow and Sharp Shoot.  Without the Procs these should not be used as openers.  Also I noticed that the solo mobs were casters and hung back longer than other mobs I was used to.  The second mob was yellow con three levels above me with no arrows.  I managed to take it down in 26 seconds.  My DPS on this solo encounter was 373.88.  Opened with Stealthy fire and had to cycle through several bow CAs and all my melee CAs in adition to my stun, longshank, cripling blade combo.  In the end the mob only hit me for a total of 663 and I managed to do 9721 damage. </div><div> </div><div>I would recomend a stealth and backstab when soloing because the only bow attack that can do as much damage is tripple arrow.  DO NOT STUN, BACK UP AND SHARP SHOOT.  Sharp Shoot sucks now so don't expect it to finish off the mobs with it like before.</div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?  I can see other toons, like summoners or wizards getting picked before us.  Have not raided yet and wouldn't know any better afterwards because like one of the posters above, I organize our guild raids.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>In closing, the best thing for rangers to do right now is post constructive informatin with parses.  Oh and go forth and collect shineys!!!  I picked up 15 collection items from KoS last night.  Invis,get shiney and evac if you get in trouble.  This is probably the best thing rangers can do right now.</div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sphiriah wrote:<div></div><p>Alright, i am going to make this last post, and then never look at these boards again.</p><p>ANY one of you rangers who is having trouble with mobs that are green or blue to you seriously needs to evaluate if a ranger is the class for you.</p><p>The ONLY change that has affected me in this patch is the ability to proc off multiple hits and less procs from CA's .. however i still proc a ton with normal range attack and that is all we need. We were doing WAY too much damage.</p><p>Now about the soloing, i spent most of the day yesterday and earlier today soloing even con solo mobs, blue^ and ^^ mobs, and even a couple yellow^. I'm level 50 btw. Sure, we kill slower but not THAT slow. You're dying to blue mobs? Why? Nothing has changed except your damage .. mobs did not get buffed, your run speed did not get nerfed .. there is NO reason you should be getting killed or almost dying.</p><p>I have less DPS than i did, but i am still the top when it comes to groups.</p><p>Our DPS is fine, and i am happy that's all.</p><hr></blockquote><p>It does not take a rocket scientist to realise that dps classes either did one or two things to win a fight...</p><p>1.  Burn down mob before he burned you down.  I.E. DPS</p><p>2.  Kite mob and pray you don't get adds.</p><p>because DPS is nerfed over 50% option 1 is iffy.</p><p>Because CA arts that used to work on the run this option is not very viable either.</p><p>I do not have godly gear I am a modest ranger who has trouble paying high prices for fabled gear and legendary poisons.  Not to mention the cost of level 40's arrows.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Fennir]

He didn't flame rangers who 'cried nerf'He flamed rangers who just cried.And I applaud him for that.  It's one thing to say "wow we're [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed and this is why" and quite another to throw a text tantrum.<div></div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sphiriah wrote:<div></div><p>Alright, i am going to make this last post, and then never look at these boards again.</p><p>ANY one of you rangers who is having trouble with mobs that are green or blue to you seriously needs to evaluate if a ranger is the class for you.</p><p>The ONLY change that has affected me in this patch is the ability to proc off multiple hits and less procs from CA's .. however i still proc a ton with normal range attack and that is all we need. We were doing WAY too much damage.</p><p>Now about the soloing, i spent most of the day yesterday and earlier today soloing even con solo mobs, blue^ and ^^ mobs, and even a couple yellow^. I'm level 50 btw. Sure, we kill slower but not THAT slow. You're dying to blue mobs? Why? Nothing has changed except your damage .. mobs did not get buffed, your run speed did not get nerfed .. there is NO reason you should be getting killed or almost dying.</p><p>I have less DPS than i did, but i am still the top when it comes to groups.</p><p>Our DPS is fine, and i am happy that's all.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Old World/DoF mobs are not the same as KoS mobs.  I tested for two hours in several DoF zones before making the purchase of KoS confident that things were nearly not as bad as was stated.  Then I got intoTT things got bad quick I had to go to Gazer isle to find mobs I had room to deal with solo.  I saw 5 different Rangers LFG for a few hours at zone entrance most logged off without a group.  I couldn't get a group so I can't give an accurate depiction of group performance.  However I have AD3 Defensive stance and that was the only thing saving me besides the careful selection of targets and work area.</p><p>  I was 70%-85% after most blue Eyeballs (57-59) and 60% to 70% after fighting (60) Beholders on Gazer Isle.  Those things have the lowest HP of any mob I've fought there and it still was around 20 secs to take one down.  I saw Wizards, Warlocks chaining the Beholders nonstop.  I couldn't risk more then two or I was dead no amount of snaring was effective.  Typical opening sequence  Culling-->Triple-->Debil or precise if I was MAX range and the mob usually stopped to cast just before he got to me.  I failed 80% of the time to get to range after closing to melee, if Cheapshot wasn't up. Low DD/High DOT seemed more effective on the harder fights(whites+).  Looks like the only use I'll really be to the raid is to be a Troub wanna be (Hawk Hate Debuff) for other DPS and a puller for raid. </p><p> </p><p>Edit:  Mostly Legendary Gear...All AD3 with 5-6 M1.</p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor </p><p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:20 AM</span></p>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><p>As usual a good thread Kaeros.</p><p>I'll be raiding Court of Al'Afaz Thursday. If I can grab some parses and they make sense I'll try and get the data onto the boards (scratches head).</p><p>We aren't an uber raid guild by any standard but hopefully it might give some idea of DPS over time. I know they aren't strictly relevent now but I can also post an older raid for comparison. That will at least show the reduction according to my setup (PP and Al'Afaz fabled, cobalt armour and weps,ironwood bow, non-legendary poison because out tanks didn't have M1 taunts).</p><p>Mirdo.</p><p> </p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:He didn't flame rangers who 'cried nerf'He flamed rangers who just cried.And I applaud him for that.  It's one thing to say "wow we're [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed and this is why" and quite another to throw a text tantrum.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I have a problem with that...  whats the difference if you show ten thousand text lines saying were [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed... Or simply stating were [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed.</p><p>It is not our job as player to debug thier freaking game.</p>

[Fennir]

If someone feels free to post useless whines on an internet forum, others will reserve the right to flame them for it.<div></div>

[SpookyDuke]

<div></div><p>I'm a 55 ranger, full cobalt gear and weapons, all adept 1 CA's with one exception, that being adept 3 Stream of Arrows. I solo 90% of the time. I've noticed that I can still take down 2 yellow one and two down mobs but it's far more difficult. I havent been able to take 3 at a time like I used to do. That's fine. However, there are two things I noticed last night that bother me:</p><p>1) Not only has the radius of Thorny Trap been reduced, but the mob now breaks for me after being hit by the first ranged attack.</p><p>2) The 3 second stun is now 1 second. I know there were those who said that it was simply a mistake in the definition but I noticed that in 8 out of 10 times, I could'nt even get off one CA, much less the two that I normally got off during stun. 2 of the 10 times I was able to get off both attacks that I normally would do. I'm a little confused as to why this didn't happen 100% of the time. The mobs never resisted the stun. It simply didn't last 3 seconds. </p><p>What bothers me about this,  is that nowhere did I see that these two changes were  included in the patch. I understand Sony's desire to reduce our dps and for the most part, I agree with that philosophy, if it is done after thorough testing and feedback from its client base. It's my opinion that most of these changes were done for the PvP players, and perhaps, rightly so, but couldn't some of these changes have been done on PvP servers only?</p><p>I truly enjoy playing a ranger and in all likelyhood will continue to do so. All I ask of Sony is to listen to the feedback that your client base gives you, and be upfront about what you intend to do. We have many players who truly care not only about our class, but the success of the game as well. Please don't turn your back on one of your most valuable assets.</p><p> </p><p>Laand</p><p>55 proud ranger</p><p>Oasis  </p>

[Keredh]

<div></div><p>Basic feedback:</p><p>My regular duo partner is a swashbuckler. Both of us level 60 in full legendary. My arts are mainly adept III, one or two adept Is and a couple of masters. Hers are mainly adept I and some are still apprentice. We tested ourselves solo on 57 no arrows in KoS - and she consistently dropped mobs faster.</p><p>I then tried a one-arrow up blue individual encounter (four levels below me) and that left me nearly dead. I had better luck against the level 61 one-arrow downs.</p><p>We then grouped with a templar and bezerker to tackle triple up heroics at 59 (all four of us were 60). They benefited very little from having me there - I took maybe 5-10 seconds off a fight. Oddly, I found myself meleeing more than using the bow. She asked me how I was getting on and I simply replied that it didn't feel like the character I started back in 2004. The actual flow of combat made me feel as if I was on permanent defensive stance and with no poison up: the fact was I was on offensive and using adestes (as it happened to be the only one I had on me). For some reason it feels worse than it did pre-LU13 and I can't quite think why as I was never a kiter.</p><p>Do I feel useful? Short answer, no. Will I get groups? To make up the numbers, sure, but once an understanding of the relative strengths gets out there, they would be mad not to take a caster or swashbuckler or bruiser over me (on the strength of today's grouping I would say they could take pretty much any fighter class and have a good chance of getting near even DPS and having a second tank available).</p><p>Raiding? I've raided a couple of times - Lucan has a strong pick-up raid community that is disciplined and organised (my own guild is a family guild, a number of which pull together with members of other raiding guilds). The last run I did, in Courts, was an eye opener and several commented that they had no idea a ranger could deal so much damage. Nor did I.  I parsed somewhere between 600 and 1100 per fight. I am glad I got to see it as I shan't again and, with a lot of competition for raid slots in the pick-up community, I don't see myself getting a regular invite. I don't blame them either: they raid for fun but they want it to be successful.</p><p>It's the first time I have been minded to download and install my own parsing software though... :smileyhappy:</p><p>Ker</p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:If someone feels free to post useless whines on an internet forum, others will reserve the right to flame them for it.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>then flame on :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>We provided "quality" posts throughout beta and after NDA lifted.  You are posting well thought out arguments to folks that have thier own agenda.  Who provide no feedback, provide no vision.  Your preaching to an empty church :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zholain wrote:<div></div><div><span><font color="#ffff00"><font size="2">Sorry Kaeros, I know I sound a bit down on things, but quite honestly, that's how I feel about it after the first night of play.</font></font></span></div><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>No apologies necessary, Cat. I'm not asking anyone to be cheerful here - we don't have much to be cheerful about, right now. All I asked is that we stay on-topic and focused on the issues at hand, and not get sidetracked with a lot of venting, flames, bashing Devs, etc. I just don't see those things getting us out of this hole.</p><p>Thanks again to everyone for the detailed responses. I appreciate you guys keeping this focused. And when another class drops in to gloat at our predicament, please don't even acknowledge them. We have enough to keep us occupied without feeding the trolls.</p>

[Tobann]

Iconsider myself an average Ranger. Level 55 with maily player crafted gear, Imbued ironwood bow and mostly adept 1 CA with one or two Masters. I could only get on for a short time last night. Went to PoF. Tried killing sandscrawlers. I had no problem with single blues and white cons. Tried a white ^ and a yellow regular and was able to do it but took 2-3 times as long. I noticed groups are now deadly to me,even with 1 down arrow, I cant kill them fast enough to prevent myself form taking damage. Trap is almost useless now since the mobs just run around it,so I cant take them one at a time. My dps is very spikey now. Was running dps  250-300 on the occasion I was lucky enough to have some poisen procs. Usually was running about 180 for the majority.Havent been in group yet but looks like I will be running around the 300 dps in spikes. The problem is to get this I will have to spend a significant amount of cash. The problem as I see it is that we can still do damage on a par with other classes,but to do that it will cost large amounts of cash for poisens and new gear.In the past I coould still contribute to groups even without poisen,I would just be on a par with the rest of the group. Now I will be sub par, and paying plats per week for that priveledge. That fact along with the fact I bring nothing else to the group means it is likely invites will be far less, and I may not be able to make enough to pay for the higher level dps tier.Buaf  55 Ranger Befallen<div></div>

[Rahmn]

<div></div><p>1. Well, I guess you can say I still fill the role of DPS, however I'm being blown away be the wizard in my group last night in Sanctum.  On the plus side I didn't draw agro and the wiz was the one who bit it.</p><p>2. Bounty.... not sure how this is supposed to get me anything.</p><p>3. Haven't tryed to solo yet.</p><p>4. Didnt raid any T7 yet, but based on some rough parses, I'd rather bring a wizard if I were the raid leader.</p>

[Vacan]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I'd just like to say that I'm a soloer and feel we were reduced in DPS by to much. Don't forget if the mob is on me beating on me I have very poor defenses and they seem ever worse now. It looks to me as if they reduced all of my DPS not just the bow DPS and out melee DPS was not very good before!</p><p><strong>One of the problems I have with this whole thing is that I no longer feel we should have to pay for any of our DPS unless all other classes start having to as well</strong>. This is not just for the Rangers but all scout classes. I use regular poisons because I don't feel I should have to foot the bill to buy the expensive poisons or arrows to do DPS like all other DPS T1 classes.</p><p>We may have been over powered but I never saw it. I just made level 57 the other day before the changes started and maybe I suck but I never could take higher level mobs and ^^^ mobs unless they were green to me. Remember I didn't have trap or Stream. I fought like we have to fight now. I would get off my two arrow CA's and then melee the mobs to death. If I got hurt bad I would try and root/snare the mob and run to get some more bow shots off so I didn't die.</p><p>Now I have no options and my bow shots don't even help as much as they used to. We should never have to kite mobs to solo.</p><p>Message Edited by Vacan on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:00 AM</span></p>

[Moncreat]

<div></div><p>I am a level 60 ranger.  I don't have many Master spells and most are Adept1's so I am not the most powerful ranger but have in the past enjoyed soloing even con solo mobs.  Most heroic mobs will kick my rear but sometimes I find a green heroic encounter that I can defeat using tactics and the abilities that a ranger should have.  I have maybe 2 pieces of fabled gear and the rest is player made.  I copied and pasted the following from a different thread where I posted this earlier and thought it more apporpriate to place it here.</p><p> </p><p>I read many things that people and developers had to say about the proc rate of poisons and the difference with slow weapons and such.  I have never really used a slower weapon to make procs happen more. </p><p>Last night I just experimented for a short time with the normal set up that I had used previously before the patch.  I had my usual poison on and all the same equipment that I normally use when soloing. (imbued rings now proc and not very often, so those stats were down a bit)</p><p>I killed 25 solo mobs that were 2 - 3 levels below me.  I know 25 is not a truely acurate test but just to see how the changes had affected my toon.  I would start out with one bowshot, maybe I would get in 2 if I could position myself far enough away and then fight them toe to toe.  The battles were not short but were not too terribly long.  I would manage to go through my toe to toe battle CA's probably about 4 - 5 times (not being able to stun run around to the back of them and backstab them like I use to be able to do)  During these 25 battles I checked to see how many times my poison had procced and it procced a total of 20 times in the 25 battles.</p><p>Now as I said 25 battles is not an extensive test for the proc rate of poisons but with what has been said in all the posts that I have read, and with what Blackguard has said in his posts and telling us about his "one" ranger that they tested on the beta server I am not sure they got everything worked out and maybe over did it a bit.  With my poison having a 25 percent chance to proc on each succesful hit(or individual CA...hit says to me that any normal battle hit, it should have a chance to proc also) it seems to me that it did quite a bit less than that.  Again this was on just 25 battles that I looked at this data.</p><p>25% chance means to me that 1 out of 4 succesful hits should proc poison.  Lets say I only did 10 CA's during each battle. ( I did more than that though, but lets just say 10 successful CA's during each battle)  That would be a total of 250 chances for my poison to proc.  During those battles it procced 20 times.  Even at that very low estimate of the number of CA's I did during each battle that is only an 8% proc rate. </p><p>That is just some data from me, I would like to hear some more from others.  I am sure that this was not the post to put it on and I am sure I will copy and paste this in a thread by itself soon, but just wanted to let you know my exp and am looking forward to hear about others.</p><p>Do I feel I can add to a group?  Probably just not at the dps that I once was.</p><p>Do I feel that I can solo mobs that I should be able to solo?  Probably not.</p><p>Do I feel that I can adapt and still enjoy the game?  I have adapted every other time.  My enjoyment of the game is not just playing my char but seeing and talking to people that I consider friends and getting in pick up groups and meeting new people.  However, this change sure puts a damper on it. </p><p>I will do more experimentation today to see what changes I can make and possible make myself more powerful.  Only time will tell, but as I stated in my above post, I think they went a bit overboard on the proc rate.  My short experiment tells me that what the poison says it will proc and what it actually does are two very different things and not for the better.</p>

[BSbon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span>2. Broken or were nerf'd a little hard?  I think cheap shot needs to be a 3-4 second stun, if your lagging at all you cant land a back attack.  I miss being able to fire that one debuff while backing up, it was a life saver while soloing... a number of times it was the diff between living and dieing.</span></div><hr></blockquote><div>Cheap shot is a 6 second stun on non heroics and a 2 second stun on heroics provided nothing hits the mob for that 2 seconds.</div><div> </div><div>bongo</div>

[Nimana]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Did some more soloing with my ranger, kiting Anaz maulers in SS. The mobs were yellow conned heroics lvl 51-52, 2 arrows up. My ranger is a lvl 50 with ordinary gear, no fabled or legendary items.</p><p>I fought 6 mobs (the seventh brought a friend who killed me), the encounters lasted from 1 min. 9 secs to 1 min. 28 secs. Dps varied from 146, 9 (minimum) to 192,3 (max), with most at about 165 dps. Used 3 different poisons with the heat debuff being lvl 40 instead of 50. Fulginate arrows.</p><p> </p><p>Edit: Was refreshing CAs between encounters!</p><p>Edit: Added some more encounters</p><p>Was finally able to kill an even conned heroic 3 arrows up (exiled Kromtorr). Was my 7th or 8th attempth though. Took about 1 min. 50 secs. Nearly 160 dps.</p><p>Also killed nearly 20 even conned (some 1 arrow down) solo mobs (dry bones skeletons and crypt mummys): Dps varied a lot; from 129 to 372, most encountersat about 170-240 dps.</p><p>Morningstar</p><p>Norsemen</p><p>Splitpaw</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:24 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:16 PM</span></p>

[BSbon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr><div> </div><div> </div><div>my dps for soloing is around 128-318       58^^^ almost owned me up</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><div>This mob is not level appropriate solo mob. this is a 3-6 person group mob. IDDQD is no longer in effect</div><div> </div><div>bongo</div>

[nimbus2kgold]

<div>I hear many saying they are "average" rangers, with ad1 spells and mediocre gear, and they are getting hit hard.  Well, I am not an average ranger.  I have 12 master spells in my arsenal ( including Stream, Storm, Triple, Culling, Sniper, and many others), and the rest are ad 3 (even the melee spells).  I have cobalt and vanadium head to toe that I have slowly been replacing with Fabled and treasured that is better.  I raid about 3x a week.  Let me tell you, things are not much better for me.</div><div> </div><div>I feel completely useless.  This group dps at 250-300 crap has got to change.  Its been said before and it will be said again.  All I have is my DPS.  I have no useful group buffs or utility ( nothing that every other scout doesnt have anyway) so what is going to make anyone pick me over the troub, or swashy, or wizzy or warlock... they all bring something more than dps to he table.</div><div> </div><div>Were we overpowered before? Yes, I think we were.  Our damage was insane.  I dont think many will argue this point.  We needed to be toned down.  But this nerf has gone above and beyond.</div><div> </div><div>I soloed a group of 4 down arrow lvl 54 solo (very green.. 6 lvls under me) truth guards in Maj.  Laid out thorny trap and took them one at a time. By the time I was done my health was orange.  There is no reason for this.</div><div> </div><div>Rangers have many problems, among them:</div><div> </div><div>1. The ground keeps getting shifted underneith us and we dont know what to focus on.. str? agi? int?  Throw us a bone here.</div><div> </div><div>2.  We have what... 4? melee CA's that can be used face to face.  We have no way to keep the mob away from us to range them. We had a root potion, but now with procs screwed up, its almost useless. And cheap shot with its 1 sec duration is a joke.  Yes we will be getting some kind of hawk supposedly, but that doesnt help the 1-60's rangers.</div><div> </div><div>3. We have alot of trouble with HO's.  Still no ranged spells that will trigger them.</div><div> </div><div>You want to take away our massive dps fine.  Give us something in return.  A group agi or str buff.  A group poision resist.  Something. </div><div> </div><div>And dont tell us we are supposed to be T1 dps, doing more than most others.  If that is true, then you need to acknowledge a problem.  My very good conjurer friend (supposedly T2 dps) was out DPS'ing me by alot.. and i mean, alot.. Im not saying i want her nerfed. On the contrary.  I want to be brought back up to where I am supposed to be.</div><div> </div><div>Oh and for those that say we are still paying for our dps... yeah, but not much.  Takes hours to go through one poision charge cause it never procs.  Yay for saving money.(/sarcasm)</div>

[Gumbercules]

i did not get a chance to play my Ranjor last night sadly.I am not sure how we are doing now first hand. but from the sounds of it it sounds as tho we are back in to the Pre LU13 days.also am i reading things right is our Trap now a Single target and not a group one as that is not cool if that is the case.Well hopefully i will be able to log in tonight and play for a bit.Stay safe all have Fun

[kitcabood]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well, I'm a soloer so I can only answer that part of the question.  Unfortunately, the answer is 'No, I can't solo effectively.'</p><p>Having solo'd my way up to L51 I have a couple of legendary items but that is about it - I can't even afford to fully kit myself out for turning L51 yet.  Maybe if I were dripping in fabled with all adept IIIs I'd solo fine - but as a solo Ranger, with the equipment I can afford/find as a solo Ranger, I can't play effectively at all now.  I was killing a green dune spiderling & got jumped by a green decrepit ghoul - nearly died and had to run.  Somehow, I don't think that should happen.</p><p>I am not someone who cares about how high my dps is compared to other people's & I often do quests once mobs are grey - but my quick run around the 'easier' part of the sand dunes made me so depressed I just logged back to character select.</p><p>Maybe we could have a 'Soloing' stance?  One that switched on a couple of movable bow skills or amended existing ones to be usable on the move?  One that could be un-usable in PVP or groups, so that it wouldn't hurt class balance but would enable us to play solo? </p><p>I'm happy if we still need to use skill and the element of chance to solo - that's one of the reasons I have enjoyed playing my Ranger, there is more thought involved in the combat than with some of the other classes - but I'd rather not be running scared from stuff levels below me just because I'm not in top-drawer gear. </p><p>Kitcaboodle</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by kitcaboodle on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:28 PM</span></p>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div></div><div>I have always played a Ranger. </div><div> </div><div>Even in games that don't specifically have a Ranger class, I mold my character as closley to the Ranger archtype as the game mechanics will allow.</div><div> </div><div>The times of day when I play, the length of my on-time sessions, and my own personal preferences mean that almost all of my gaming time is solo.</div><div> </div><div>A Ranger suits both my personality and my play style.</div><div> </div><div>EQ2 is not the most 'solo-friendly' game system.</div><div> </div><div>Now, after LU20, my Ranger simply cannot solo effectively any longer.</div><div> </div><div>I have heard the arguements and the counter arguements.  I have read Moorgard's comments.  It may very well have been true that LU 13 over-powered Rangers.</div><div> </div><div>As a solo Ranger in his 40s, who is still using Adept 1's, with 'adequate' gear, I am having an awful time soloing.</div><div> </div><div>When those irritaiting orange Roekillick assassins jump me for instance (and ALWAYS at the worst possible moment), I no longer have any Ranged CA that I can use on the run.   I'm dying a lot.</div><div> </div><div>Perhaps I am not playing efficiently.  Perhaps I need to wait and see how those more experienced than I am are handling the changes;  I suppose I could switch to a different class, but</div><div> </div><div>I have always played a Ranger.</div><div> </div><div>I am more disappointed than angry.  I realize that balancing adjustments must be made from time to time.  Is it a coincidence that this change in Rangers comes simultaneously with the launch of the PvP system?  I don't know, but I am suspicious.</div><div> </div><div>They told us, they <em><strong>promised</strong></em> us, that classes would not be nerfed to accomodate PvP.  I would like to believe that they were telling us the truth, but, </div><div> </div><div>I have always played a Ranger.</div>

[physics20]

<div></div>One idea...for those who are parsing their damage and testing their soloability post LU20, it might be a good idea to do these tests on old content and NOT KoS content.  The point being that perhaps part of the reason that mobs in KoS seem so difficult for some right now is that these mobs were intended for characters with multiple achievement points as well.  It just seems to me that if I put out an expansion offering this new achievement possiblity, I would want the content to still be challenging after a character has, say, all 50 points.  While some have disputed SOE's claim of a 70 ranger reaching 4000 dps before the proc changes, the assumption has always been that that ranger also had all 50 achievement points.  Even before the proc changes, I couldn't imagine reaching 4k dps even after leveling to 70, so I have to conclude that that gap was bridged with achievement points.  Therefore, even though alot of rangers now feel that they are weak and perhaps not viable t1 dps atm, this may very well change in a few months once those same characters get, oh, 30 or 40 achievement points.  Remember, ideally the expansion should be challenging both the day you get it all the way up to the day the next expansion comes out.  Sometimes its a little rough at the beginning, but as characters get reequipped, I'm hoping that in a few weeks/months things will even up a bit.  Though I have not had an opportunity to test out my ranger since the update, the fact that some have been able to kill roughly even con heroics in DoF is encouraging, and actually exceeds my initial expectations. Feynman Diagram<div></div>

[Nimana]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>kitcaboodle wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Well, I'm a soloer so I can only answer that part of the question.  Unfortunately, the answer is 'No, I can't solo effectively.'</p><p>Having solo'd my way up to L51 I have a couple of legendary items but that is about it - I can't even afford to fully kit myself out for turning L51 yet.  Maybe if I were dripping in fabled with all adept IIIs I'd solo fine - but as a solo Ranger, with the equipment I can afford/find as a solo Ranger, I can't play effectively at all now.  I was killing a green dune spiderling & got jumped by a green decrepit ghoul - nearly died and had to run.  Somehow, I don't think that should happen.</p><hr></blockquote><p>No offense, but if I can solo lvl 52 heroics 2 arrows up comfortably with my level 50 ranger with no fabled/legendary items, I don't really see why you should have to run away from green mobs...?</p><p>Are you using 3 different poisons when soloing? What is your tactics?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:49 PM</span></p>

[leafnin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>physics2000 wrote:<div></div>One idea...for those who are parsing their damage and testing their soloability post LU20, it might be a good idea to do these tests on old content and NOT KoS content.  The point being that perhaps part of the reason that mobs in KoS seem so difficult for some right now is that these mobs were intended for characters with multiple achievement points as well.  It just seems to me that if I put out an expansion offering this new achievement possiblity, I would want the content to still be challenging after a character has, say, all 50 points.  While some have disputed SOE's claim of a 70 ranger reaching 4000 dps before the proc changes, the assumption has always been that that ranger also had all 50 achievement points.  Even before the proc changes, I couldn't imagine reaching 4k dps even after leveling to 70, so I have to conclude that that gap was bridged with achievement points.  Therefore, even though alot of rangers now feel that they are weak and perhaps not viable t1 dps atm, this may very well change in a few months once those same characters get, oh, 30 or 40 achievement points.  Remember, ideally the expansion should be challenging both the day you get it all the way up to the day the next expansion comes out.  Sometimes its a little rough at the beginning, but as characters get reequipped, I'm hoping that in a few weeks/months things will even up a bit.  Though I have not had an opportunity to test out my ranger since the update, the fact that some have been able to kill roughly even con heroics in DoF is encouraging, and actually exceeds my initial expectations. Feynman Diagram<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I tested for two hours in DoF before purchasing KoS like I said before it's night and day.  Why is it so different for only Rangers?  I see other classes with only minor increased difficulty chain the same mobs I'm taking with breaks in between in TT.  If the only way we can effectively take these types of mobs (57-60 normal solo) is to max out AAs, I want out now.  AAs are to individualize your subclass from each other while providing moderate upgrades not make it so you can have fight the mob equal to another class without AAs at 60 could.</p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p><p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:49 PM</span></p>

[Cron]

Kae,I played for about two hrs last night mostly questing so I don't have a whole lot to say at this point. However, here are some of my observations.I won't bother posting my equipment because anyone can look at <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=238737108" target="_blank">me</a> and see what I'm using. I have a few master spells and about 4 Adept III's. I'm level 60 as the signature below shows.Last night I was proccing poison about 15% with very few other procs going off. My DPS was between 250-350. I was hitting the higher range when I duoed with a guildie Defiler. I didn't get into any other groups last night. One thing that I noticed. I did take on a cloudwalker(?)(LVL 65 Single Arrow Down) and killed him with about 1 bub of health left. It took about 45 seconds. I had stun poison (Vision) on but never heard it proc. I also had Adeste's and Glox. Not once did I die from a battle or come close.I don't feel I have played enough to really say much about soloability although at this point I am comfortable with it. I will group some tonight and the next few days and come back with my opinion. The guild hits Court of Al on Sunday so I will be getting the raid perspective then.One note and it doesn't really mean anything. I was talking to Tigruz from Trib about what my DPS is currently and he stated that if that were true, we are where the assassin's have been sitting. I'm really not sure because I have just recently started to seriously parse anything in the past week. So I can't really answer your question of "do I feel I am equitable with other "equal" classes". I don't know what classes clock in at across the board. If we are sitting where Assassins are, then our DPS is low because we have long been saying they needed some loving to get them into T1 where they should be. I hope this is what you are looking for. I know it's not to informative but it's the only experience I have had at this point. I'm not saying everyone should be able to kill 5 levels (or is a arrow down technically 4 levels) above them, but I did last night. If I can solo that content all the time, I'd be happy I think with the solo portion of our formula.

[Tobann]

It seems that before the update I could either pay for high level poisens and be at the top of the DPS chart, or I coould solo either very fast with poisen or slower without poisen depending on my bank accouont.Now my choice seems to be pay a lot for poisen to be at the low end of tier 1 dps or upper tier 2, or pay for 3 poisens so I can solo even con mobs effectivly.Buaf 55 Ranger<div></div>

[Vacan]

<div></div><p>Nimanael said</p><p>No offense, but if I can solo lvl 52 heroics 2 arrows up comfortably with my level 50 ranger with no fabled/legendary items, I don't really see why you should have to run away from green mobs...?</p><p>Are you using 3 different poisons when soloing? What is your tactics?</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __</p><p>Let me ask you this since you seem to be so good at your ranger an others, like me, suck.</p><p>Why should I have to use 3 different poisons to solo anything?</p><p>Why should I not be able to solo without poisons and save the cash like other classes since I don't even do the damage of the other classes that are T1 and some T2?</p><p>Why should I, being a Ranger that is suppose to use a bow, have to melee after one or two bow shots?</p><p>Why should I have to kite  to stay alive?</p><p>What are your tactics if you can solo lvl 52 heroics with two up arrows? What mobs and where?</p><p>No offense but by the way I don't believe you!</p>

[kitcabood]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Nimanael wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote>No offense, but if I can solo lvl 52 heroics 2 arrows up comfortably with my level 50 ranger with no fabled/legendary items, I don't really see why you should have to run away from green mobs...?</blockquote><p>Are you using 3 different poisons when soloing? What is your tactics?</p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:49 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><div>Not three, just two (T5) - the third stun/stifle poison would have to be legendary & I don't think I should require a legendary poison to fight regular mobs.  Never did before and didn't fight mobs above an even con before I got to DoF.  Incidentally, the mob that nearly did for me was a decrepit ghoul -  ghouls of all sorts have always been tricky as they have some attacks that seem to destroy my health in no time!</div><div> </div><div>As mentioned - I can't afford to kit out for turning 50 fully yet - I'm still at least 60% in the gear I had in my late 40's.  I don't group or raid so I don't have high level stuff.</div><div> </div><div>My standard technique would be - pull with high damage bow shot, leg shot, get in second high damage shot (though seems harder as leg shot seems to slow less than before so wasn't getting the chance 50% of the time tonight), before the update if it wasn't a down arrow mob you could add a debilitating arrow into that & then go for the positional melee attacks.</div><div> </div><div>Probably three T6 poisons might make it easier but I can't craft/afford those yet & I don't think I'd ever want to have to be using the legendary one as standard for solo mobs.</div><div> </div><div>Also - if I could do it before & can't do it now, it's probably not so much about technique as the general nerf, since I'm comparing it with what I could do before - not what everybody else could do!</div><p>Message Edited by kitcaboodle on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:58 PM</span></p>

[JackFet]

<div></div><div>I'm horrid at parsing... so this is gonna be a "feel" post...</div><div> </div><div>Level 56 ranger, about 80% solo, 20% group. Equipment is definitely not top tier, mostly 'found' items with a few key crafted pieces.</div><div> </div><div>Solo: Doable, but a struggle. Pre-update 20 I had 2 or 3 routines depending on the skills that had refreshed. Now, it seems best to wait the out the three minute timers on trap, and storm of arrows for every encounter. I also seem to spend a lot more time with swords in hand, which is unfortunate. If that were my goal, I'd have gone all swashbuckly from the beginning.</div><div> </div><div>Groups: I'm currently selling myself on my knowledge and experience. In a Sol's Eye group with a 55 conjuror and 55 Fury, I was able to get the AA Bounty twice in 3 hours. The conjuror was easily tripling my damage, and the Fury was running neck and neck, it seems. In all that time of constant fights, I never had to repoison my weapons, so I know they procced less than 200 times.</div><div> </div><div>Stream of arrows used to be a nice, semi-self-destructive method of outputting damage into a group encounter. Now, it seems I'm more effective staying in melee range and cycling through the backstabs, slowly. Roughly, a full 30 seconds of stream of arrows, with proc bow, 2 proc melee weapons, and adestes poison used to range at 20-25,000, now it gets one chance to poison, one to proc the bow... plus the regular 20 arrow strikes at 297-479 each... so... say if everything works in my favor 8,000 damage in 30 seconds? Of course, the increased hate gain still functions quite well, so don't count on the full 8k. Can this skill be reclassified as a level 30 fluff spell or something? Or better yet, replace the procc opportunities on this one, because it really is like a sped up stifled/rooted autoattack, rather than a combat art. And it makes no sense that any ranger would shoot off 20 arrows over 30 seconds, but only poison the first one.</div><div> </div><div>(I feel that a better solution to the whole proc/poison "problem" would have been to make poisons not affect a target that is currently under the influence of that poison. In other words, one poison at a time on something... and no repoisoning until it wears off. This would have solved the way-too-much poison damage problem, AND levelled the poison vs poison playing field a bit, since the high up-front damage poisons wouldn't have an obvious advantage any more.)</div><div> </div><div>Seems to me, the ranger class was awesome at range, middling at close behind, and vulnerable and barely effective face-to-face... The update with unannounced changes to movement interrupts, slower ca launches, and removal of proc opportunities has moved it to middling at range, and left the rest untouched.</div><div> </div><div>Perhaps we should change our names to Trackers, instead of Rangers.</div><p>Message Edited by JackFetch on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:28 PM</span></p>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>JackFetch wrote:<div></div><div>(I feel that a better solution to the whole proc/poison "problem" would have been to make poisons not affect a target that is currently under the influence of that poison. In other words, one poison at a time on something... and no repoisoning until it wears off. This would have solved the way-too-much poison damage problem, AND levelled the poison vs poison playing field a bit, since the high up-front damage poisons wouldn't have an obvious advantage any more.)</div><div> </div><div><hr></div></blockquote>Just to check my facts: this is the way it HAD been working, correct? We didn't stack multiple infections of poison simultaneously; every proc overwrote the previous one. That's the whole reason that high DD poisons were the obvious choice, b/c no high DoT poison would ever finish proccing before it was 'reset' by a new poison proc. So it was always one instance of a single poison at a time, but it procced so often that the poison damage was near-constant. Personally I feel it would have been better addressed by just reducing the frequency (chance) of poison procs, if that was the real problem here. This massive across-the-board reduction in proc rates was just overkill, IMO.

[Nimana]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Vacan wrote:<div></div><p> </p><p>Let me ask you this since you seem to be so good at your ranger an others, like me, suck.</p><p>Why should I have to use 3 different poisons to solo anything?</p><p>Why should I not be able to solo without poisons and save the cash like other classes since I don't even do the damage of the other classes that are T1 and some T2?</p><p>Why should I, being a Ranger that is suppose to use a bow, have to melee after one or two bow shots?</p><p>Why should I have to kite  to stay alive?</p><p>What are your tactics if you can solo lvl 52 heroics with two up arrows? What mobs and where?</p><p>No offense but by the way I don't believe you!</p><hr></blockquote><p>First of all, I've never stated that I'm particularly good at what I'm doing. On the contrary, I don't think I am that good a soloer. If you had read my prior posts, you would know that only a couple of weeks ago I asked for advice on the ranger forum on how to improve my soloing skills, feeling that my performance was sub par. That was BEFORE LU20...</p><p>You ask why you should have to use 3 different poisons to kill anything. Simple answer is: You don't HAVE  to use 3 poisons. Using a DoT probably will suffice in most circumstances (unless you're soloing in KoS). When I'm soloing even conned mobs, I often do that without poisons at all. Did it before LU20, can do it still (remember, this "nerf" is largely due to less poison procs!).</p><p>However, to fully utilize your class' potential, poisons are a necessity. Why 3? Because that is as many as SOE will allow you to use simultaneously <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Do I think it is unfair that rangers have to pay for their damage even though we allegedly do less damage than other classes? Sure! Have I ever stated otherwise? Not at all! Again, if you had read my prior posts you would know that I think it is unacceptable that ANY other class outdps rangers AND have better solo ability. That being said, there are pros and cons to every class. Rangers have to pay to be tier 1 dps, sorcerers can only wear cloth armor. Perfectly balanced? Not at all. Remember this though: If you want the other tier 1 classes to pay for their damage, there will be one argument less as to why we should be on par with them... And there are lots of sorcerers claiming they should be solely on top (due to their alledged lack of "survivability&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. )</p><p>Personally I don't melee much. I may have to melee fighting group mobs (I try to avoid them however!). And I do occasionally melee when fighting even conned mobs (hardly ever dropping below 50% health), but mostly I kite. Why should we kite? Well, in my opinion kiting makes sense. If you are good at ranged combat, but vulnerable up close, keeping a distance may be a good strategy, don't you think? Some other classes require space to solo effectively too. Sorcerers for example have to be able to move out of range if roots break.</p><p>When soloing I always max the distance between the mob and myself before attacking. (I'm using a long bow of course!) I normally start with Hidden Fire, then leg shot. On even conned mobs I may start with Triple  Fire (my only Master 2 skill) or Culling the Herd. If I start with Culling the Herd, I follow up with Debilitating arrow. Otherwise as stated leg shot is the natural follow up. Thus , the mob is snared, and I can start backing away from it.</p><p>If I'm fighting  heroics, I always start with Hidden Fire, then I shoot Leg shot and start backing away immediately after. I use Focus Fire and Storm of Arrows on the run. Having distanced the mob, I stop and fire debilitating arrow to lower its defense, then I move again, casting Entrap (again snaring it) and Feral Instinct if it's up (I always run in large circles, if you get too far away from where you pulled the mob, it will break the encounter and run back). I get some distance and use Triple Fire. If the mob gets too close, I use Cheap shot, then run behind it while firing Culling the Herd (again snaring it). Then I get some more distance and follow up with Sharp shot and Leg shot (or entrap, depending on how much time I have), distancing the mob again, then Miracle arrow and/or Trick arrow. When I'm on the move, and the mob is within range, I use my "semi-ranged" melee skills like Pick off and Blazing thrust.</p><p>Needless to say, as CAs are refreshing, I use them again.</p><p>Basically the strategy is to do as much damage as possible as fast as possible. And to always keep the mob at a distance using Leg shot, Cheap shot, Culling and Entrap (preferably stun poison too).</p><p>If you want to know what mobs I've used this strategy on, please look up my most recent posts, it's all there!</p><p> </p><p>Hopefully you'll find some of this useful!</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Morningstar</p><p>Norsemen</p><p>Splitpaw</p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:57 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:50 PM</span></p>

[KannaWhoopass]

<div></div><p>I dont believe you</p><p> </p><p>I just spent 40 min in KOS to get 7% debt.</p><p>I cant kill anything above lvl 57 with any certainty.</p><p>My least used ability now = Offencive stance.</p><p>While playing after 40 min and 4 deaths i feel ill ...</p><p>the mobs i can kill give me .1% exp with vitality</p><p>it takes me 30 + seconds to kill one while i stand there on auto attack ..hand to hand ..flailing like a [Removed for Content].</p><p>wow so that is what 30,000 seconds and ill level ....ohhh wait no i wont cause i die all the time ...lets be kind and say 40,000 seconds wow 11 hours and 6 minutes ..of non stop play and ill get one level ... </p><p>im lfg ....my guild is trying to power level ...where once i would have been welcomed into the groups to speed up dps ...they tried to tell me a good spot i could go to solo ...a little put off i went there ..i cant kill them .....</p>

[TaleraRis]

I'd love to be able to tell you if I'm still useful or not Jay, if I could log in <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Yrield]

<div></div><div>60 ranger with no CAs under Adept3, using Dark fury long bow (t6 fabled) and poison1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?Sure... if a Monk/bruiser/Zerker/Bards can be dps in group... we can</div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?SoA is acting weird, all others CAs are "broken" if we are supposed to be T1 dps</div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?</div><div> No, i can do a nice solo round every 15min or so (sniper shot up), correct round every 2min or so (Stealthy fire and trap up) other than that... my solo game is Sit and Wait</div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?No periodWe need to be fixed ASAP, right now we are out of the loop</div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Yrieldom on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:16 PM</span></p>

[Nimana]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><p>Now why should I lie?</p><p> </p><p>Not only am I soloing just fine, others are too. Check out what Sphiriah (lvl 50), DbMorland (lvl 55), Zeijandi (lvl 55) and others are reporting. Tobann (lvl 55) claims to be able to kill white one arrows up and yellow conned mobs (no arrows). Bongotez (lvl 44 (?)) has posted pictures and a parse of himself killing a yellow conned mob WITHOUT EVEN USING POISON.</p><p>Rangers are not having  (and should not have) problems with soloing in PF or SS. There may be difficulties for those trying to solo in KoS though. That does not however, seem to be a problem for rangers exclusively...</p><p> </p><p>Devs will be testing our claims for themselves, and lying about our situation will only lead to a loss of both credibility and sympathy! Let's work together to make our class both fun and wanted1</p><p> </p></div><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:29 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:34 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:55 PM</span></p>

[smoody]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div>First: I'm not going to tell anyone how to post, but I'm going to ask that you keep replies to THIS thread in the constructive and mature category. Go ahead and vent, rage, throw the tantrum if you need to - there are PLENTY of threads for that already. I'd like this one to be informative and help us answer some questions. Please respect that.</div><div> </div><div>Second: I know we're all seeing drastically reduced numbers, but IMO, comparing your DPS now with your DPS last week is just plain folly. Of course it's going to be much, much lower. We knew that. We were overpowered, now we're not. You can disagree all you want with how SOE accomplished "fixing" us, but just accept that the DPS we were doing is thing of the past. If you needed to be top dog in every group or raid to enjoy your toon, I'm sorry, but you probably should look elsewhere. I hear Baskin-Robbins is offering a great deal on summoners this month. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>We need to determine if the pendulum swung too far in reducing our DPS, and if it did, we need to figure out how to restore it to the level where we belong. I realize some of these questions will take more time testing and parsing to really answer, and that's fine. No hurry here. I'm looking for informative feedback derived from direct, firsthand experience. I'm also looking for information across levels and equipment - not just the end-game crowd.</div><div> </div><div>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?</div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?</div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?</div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?</div><div> </div><div>Hoping that at least some of you can be level-headed enough to provide helpful information so we can identify the biggest problem areas. I know everyone is freaking out right now, that's fine, I'm not happy myself - and I encourage you to work out that frustration and anger in whatever way you see fit - but please don't go off on flame-fests and rants here; plenty of other threads for that.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks for your consideration and assistance.</div><hr></blockquote><p>1. I haven't been able to so far.</p><p>2. Haven't found any "broken" but several are modified in wrong way.</p><p>3. Not really. The highest level I have been successful with is a level 58.</p><p>4. Not sure. It would be interesting to see. However the group DPS is down so far, it isn't looking good.</p><p>Fredethel</p><p>Edit: Just for reference, I have all Adept III or Master's with a mix of Fabled and Legendary gear.</p><p>Message Edited by smoody on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:37 PM</span></p>

[rcknchr]

<div></div><div></div>Im a 38 level Ranger with above average gear most of  my armor and all 3 weapons (pristine imbued oak longbow, polished granite tomahawk, and a pristine imbued feysteel sai) are  Legendary. All of my bow CA are AD3 and the 4 melee CA are AD1. Went to Nek Castle today and pull a 31^^^ hellhound (green con) and barely beat him. I had 6% health left. If my tomahawk would not have procced i would have died. So then I pull 2 31^^ gargoyles. I took the 1st one down but the 2nd one killed me and it was still at 60% health.Our soloing has become nonexistant and boring when you do try. Our bow CA seem weak too because at best youre only gonna get 2 off before they are in your face and we just dont have the melee CA to take them. I think our dps should have been brought down, but they should not have made the class worthless by dropping our dps as much as they did. I dont see us as being picked first over the other scout classes because they have group utility spells, but i think we will still get groups when people are just looking for any class to fill a spot. I dont raid so cant say about the raiding end of the game. It is dissappointing that after think around 7 years (only played for 4 not exactly sure how long its been out) of EQ1 and 2 years of EQ2 SoE still cant seem to find a happy medium for the Ranger class. Hopefully since they didnt listen before when this was in beta maybe they will start listening to what their fanbase and customers are saying and try and make it right. I was also using vendor bought posion with a medium damage on impact and medium damage dot. Think somewhere around 65 on impact and 85 every so many seconds.<p>Message Edited by rcknchr74 on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:11 PM</span></p>

[Nimana]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:55 PM</span></p>

[Guy De Alsace]

Level 60 Ranger here. Just like to say that I got Scalesplitter in Temple of Scale (legendary Katana) and use the fairly cheap Aegis of Scorn now instead of two weapons. It seems to help me solo a lot. I go offensive stance in the initial pull with a bow and switch to defensive in melee. Use one store bought damage poison which I can remember the name of.Killed a named lvl 58^ and yellow conned grp (lvl 61 one downs) fairly easily in KoS. The group I was in in Temple of Scale didnt complain about my dps at all but I think the wizard was suprised she kept getting aggro. I rarely got aggro pre-LU20 anyway due to using Improved Surveil and lots of aggro debuffs.We're definitely missing something. I reckon our damage output is a shade too low now for our pure dps role. I dont think the devs thought about the fact that Rangers have nothing else whatsoever to bring to a group except dps. We do need to be just slightly over the wizzies/warlocks to compensate for our lack of utility.At the moment the class is broken by this change but not in a catastrophic way. KoS simply highlights the shortcomings due to its design and population (fairly small areas, lots of one-up mobs who are all aggro)Our lvl 1 AA needs looking at too. At the moment its completely worthless.<div></div>

[smoody]

<div></div><p>Let's be clear about something. You aren't supposed to be able to solo heroic mobs. Posting results of solo encounters against heroic mobs isn't going to get dev attention. They have clearly stated that those mobs are intended for groups. However, solo mobs with a single up arrow are easy pickings for many of our scout friends, and they often times hand us our rear end on a platter.</p><p>We have very little melee skills and they are on long refresh timers, no point blank bow skills, and no way to keep the mob off of us. The issue could be fixed easily in any number of ways. SOE just has to provide us the capability. It is frustrating to see another scout, a cleric, a mage and a tank easily kill a mob which is a race with the random number generator for me to kill. These are solo con mobs, not heroics. We were getting away with fighting these mobs prior to LU20 since we were doing such insane DPS we could kill them before they got to us. However, now we are back at a point where we are seeing the problems with the ranger class which have existed since LU13.</p><p>Rangers, let's post results and feedback that will net us some results. I want the devs to take a hard look at the viability of this class post LU20. Posting results regarding fights against heroic mobs won't get us those results.1. We need an effective way to solo. Whether that is increasing our melee arts, decreasing timers or providing us with a real root of some sort.2. We need some relief from the costs of arrows. I suggest removing arrow levels completely. Or provide an infinite quiver. I'll pay 5p for one of those. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />3. We need to provide a reason to exist in a group. I am Ok with the being DPS only, but as such, we should be at or near the top of the DPS charts. This doesn't mean we should be twice that of an assasin or any other scout class. I am simply saying we should be Tier 1. Currently we appear to be solidly in T2 behind swashbucklers and brigands.</p><p>Fredethel</p>

[Nimana]

<div></div><div><p> </p><p> </p></div><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:56 PM</span></p>

[S'ilk]

<div></div><p>Well I am a long time lurker here always found a lot of good info on the ranger forums.  I have been playing my ranger since Nov 2004 so I was around before LU13.  I understand the wanting to bring our DPS in line with other "tier 1" DPS classes but what I do not understand is this.</p><p>If we are doing the same DPS in a grp or raid why have the ranger, what do we bring to the table?  Looking at it that way if I was not leading the DPS numbers in my raids I was not doing my job.  If we are doing the same DPS as other classes then why take a class with 0 utility over one that does equal DPS and has grp utility.</p><p> </p><p>Kasmir</p><p>60 Ranger Blackburrow</p>

[KannaWhoopass]

<div></div><div></div><p>This is some of my gear </p><p>Boots of Many Shadows</p><p>Coif of Many Shadows</p><p>Chestguard of Swirling Energy</p><p>Flame Etched Gloves</p><p>Gem Encrusted Bracelet of the Sun</p><p>Mantle of Many Shadows</p><p>Earthen Band</p><p>Foreman's Shank</p><p>sabre from the godking</p><p>also my vanadium str ring</p><p>vanadium wrist</p><p>spiregaze neck</p><p>im lvl 60 with all attack spells at Master 1 or 2</p><p>i die to lvl 58^</p><p>i die to lvl 60</p><p>this is why i dont believe you ....</p><p> </p><p>Think of the time i spent getting this gear</p><p>I know how to use my class</p><p>to be fair perhaps the old zones are easy ....KOS is a POS for rangers</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by KannaWhoopass on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:23 PM</span></p>

[Nimana]

<div></div><div><p>I'm NOT saying that rangers are fine soloing in KoS. I have not tried it yet, so I really don't have a clue. I DO believe those that say that they are having a hard time post LU20.  And I sympathize with you all!</p><p>I think SOE has hit rangers too hard with the nerf bat. I think these last adjustments prove that PvP WILL affect all players. I don't like it. Power consumption suddenly has become an issue, casting times are increased, some CAs have become less effective, poison procs have been severely reduced, mobs' run speed increased. All this at ONCE! Making such a huge change to one class' abilities surely will cause frustration!</p><p>I too would like to see our class fixed, I don't want to have to melee mobs. I'd give away my chain any day for some leather and better dps. (My wood elf ranger does look kind of androgyne anyway, it would only be befitting if he wore leather <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p><p>I hope your problems will get fixed soon Kanna. All rangers having bought the expansion should be enjoying its content now, not venting their frustrations on the class board. But attacking other posters' integrity is not the way to go...</p><p> </p><p>Good luck to you!</p><p> </p><p> </p></div><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:58 PM</span></p>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote>58^^^ almost owned me .........</blockquote>I know nerfs hit hard, and its worse when they do it at the same time as a new expansion because you wanted to focus on the new material, not the new problems with your class. But try to look at it dispassionately for a second.Unless your lvl 65+ already thats still amazing soloing! I cant do that on any of my chars... maybe my illusionist can handle 53^^^, my guardian can parhaps do 50^^^, and my templar just cannot do any heroics.I dont think soloing is a problem for rangers right now. I think the problem is the changes to your class came in one massive hard hitting dose and it has totally thrown you off your rhythm. Basically the screwed up in how they delivered these changes.Im sure if there are any real inbalances between ranger dps and other tier1 dps classes they will be addressed over the next few weeks. Hang in there and know that rangers are still always welcome in my groups.<p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:26 AM</span></p>

[Loktha]

<div></div><div>I started my ranger after the lu20 patch and therefore have no experience with the ranger pre-lu20(I wanted to try something else than the 23 pally i have atm).</div><div>I am currently at level 8 and still on the starting island.</div><div>I do not have any problems soloing the white or blue conned mobs there. But i must add here that i almost cannot use my ranged ablilities since i only have 2. I often can use only one and then the mob is already at my doorstep so i have to revert to meleeing.</div><div>Now dont get me wrong i dont have a problem with meleeing otherwise i wouldnt have started a pally, but Rangers dont get called Rangers for nothing.</div><div>Furthermore i am not an experienced ranger so maybe i still have to get some experience at fighting on a distance <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway what i want to say is, i dont feel like playing a ranged class. I feel more like playing a melee class with some ranged abilities.</div><div>I dont know if that changes at later levels... i hope so. Otherwise "Ranger" is not the correct name for this class.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Cron]

I'm getting the strange feeling that this update is a lot like LU 13. It seems to me that some levels are having a harder time with the changes than others. Maybe it's my gear that's making it easier for me to adjust, but to be quite honest, I'm not having that much of an issue with the changes. As it were, if it weren't for the fact that I'm parsing the battles, I don't feel like I've lost a whole lot (in soloability). I still haven't really grouped yet (duoed). I went into KoS again last night and in both TT and Barren Sky, I was able to take solo mobs 5 levels above me. I took out multiple mobs in the same way I use to. I did not use any stun poison last night. Adeste and Glox.Rather than call everyone liars or assume people are saying YOU can't play effectively, why don't we just stop and see why you might be having problems. This is what we did for LU13 and it seems to me a lot of Rangers were helped by that.You will recall that there were a number of people that couldn't kill anything after 13. There were an equal amount of people that felt we were gods (we were). It was just such a huge change on the player that it threw some people off. Maybe that's what is going on here. I don't know.Some things I've noticed and it probably has been discussed but I'm brain dead this morning. Cheap shot is a 6 second stun and no longer upgradeable. It says mine is a level 4 but doesn't show that I had it at Adept 1. I can now get two shots in while they are stunned.Deabilitating Arrow is no longer able to be fired on the run. Cull (backshot) is and so is Storm of Arrows.Having said all this, I do think we were put below the classes we are suppose to be equal with. I don't have hard numbers yet, but I'm seeing casters in KoS do what they've always done. Root, nuke, rinse. And they are doing it far better than I am. I really would like to get with some Rangers on Butcherblock (in the realm of level 60 for comparisions) and start seeing the differences. Kae, Tek, anyone?

[MrDiz]

Yeah, remember lu13/dof, mitigation tanks were seriously outclassed by the avoidance tanks. Didnt take more than a few weeks for lu14 to hit and the situation to right itself. Ever 3 or 4 more updates the situation was slowly balanced until we have a sort of equilibrium amongst tanks. Give it time and im sure this equilibrium between dps will be found again.In the meantime, just know that many of us know how blasted annoying such major turn arounds are and feel for you guys.

[BedlamX]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:<blockquote>58^^^ almost owned me .........</blockquote>I know nerfs hit hard, and its worse when they do it at the same time as a new expansion because you wanted to focus on the new material, not the new problems with your class. But try to look at it dispassionately for a second.Unless your lvl 65+ already thats still amazing soloing! I cant do that on any of my chars... maybe my illusionist can handle 53^^^, my guardian can parhaps do 50^^^, and my templar just cannot do any heroics.I dont think soloing is a problem for rangers right now. I think the problem is the changes to your class came in one massive hard hitting dose and it has totally thrown you off your rhythm. Basically the screwed up in how they delivered these changes.Im sure if there are any real inbalances between ranger dps and other tier1 dps classes they will be addressed over the next few weeks. Hang in there and know that rangers are still always welcome in my groups.<p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:26 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Granted this is an open forum but why is it that other classes feel the need to add thier input to a thread that is asking Rangers if they feel they can do thier job. you stated that you feel that soloing is a not problem for rangers I see by your sig that you dont have a ranger so how can you sir comment on what you know nothing about.There are plenty of other threads in this forum that you can make those statements in This thread was for Rangers the OP wasnt asking how other classes feel we can do our job.BedlamX</span></div>

[MrDiz]

<blockquote><hr>BedlamX wrote: Granted this is an open forum but why is it that other classes feel the need to add thier input to a thread that is asking Rangers if they feel they can do thier job.</blockquote>To show support for you. To tell you it isnt all bad and that we still want you in our groups. To tell you when I need DPS ill still take rangers without hesitation. Come on bud, if there is an inbalance with ranger DPS it will be spotted within days and im sure it will be fixed. We all want our raid rangers putting out the DPS <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><blockquote>you stated that you feel that soloing is a not problem for rangers I see by your sig that you dont have a ranger so how can you sir comment on what you know nothing about.</blockquote>I know I cant solo heroics on my templar. Most of us still cant solo the things that guy I replied to said he can "barely" solo. Just giving him some perspective to help ease the transition. It could be worse, altho I realise that may be little comfort.<blockquote>This thread was for Rangers the OP wasnt asking how other classes feel we can do our job.</blockquote>Ok, I didnt mean to offend. So ill leave.If it helps I think doing this sort of 'fix' at the same time as releasing an expansion is such a dumb idea of Sonys, because it now ruins the expansion for you, and I know exactly how that feels I assure you <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:54 AM</span></p>

[BedlamX]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>MrDizzi wrote:<blockquote><hr>BedlamX wrote: Granted this is an open forum but why is it that other classes feel the need to add thier input to a thread that is asking Rangers if they feel they can do thier job.</blockquote>To show support for you. To tell you it isnt all bad and that we still want you in our groups. To tell you when I need DPS ill still take rangers without hesitation. Come on bud, if there is an inbalance with ranger DPS it will be spotted within days and im sure it will be fixed. We all want our raid rangers putting out the DPS <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><font color="#ff0000">The problem I have here is not with you personally, support os welcomed however  it is with the fact that you and others dont feel that it "isnt all bad". I must tell you if you want DPS the ranger is not the answer anymore The current state of affairs would indicate that the ranger is no longer a dps class. This has been well documented with the testing going on and the numbers being posted. </font><blockquote>you stated that you feel that soloing is a not problem for rangers I see by your sig that you dont have a ranger so how can you sir comment on what you know nothing about.</blockquote>I know I cant solo heroics on my templar. Most of us still cant solo the things that guy I replied to said he can "barely" solo. Just giving him some perspective to help ease the transition. It could be worse, altho I realise that may be little comfort.<font color="#ff0000">I am not sure how things could be worse.  Not to nickpic but templars are healers were you ever meant to solo I dont know much about your class. Comparing the two classes on a soloing is crazy. If anything we should be compared to the warlock or wizzy before and after.</font><blockquote>This thread was for Rangers the OP wasnt asking how other classes feel we can do our job.</blockquote>Ok, I didnt mean to offend. So ill leave.<font color="#ff0000">You didnt offend me. I just want to point out that this is not the thread to be posting your opinions or reactions to other posts on.  Unless you have put the time and energy into a ranger to see it ripped out from under you. I dont think you could understand. </font>If it helps I think doing this sort of 'fix' at the same time as releasing an expansion is such a dumb idea of Sonys, because it now ruins the expansion for you, and I know exactly how that feels I assure you <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p><font color="#ff0000">This one I agree with you on. IMHO we wernt broke post LU13 we were givin abilities to bring us right where we belong. It has been said before by others Rangers have but 1 job and that is to kill and kill quick. Everything else we do can be accomplished by other classes. I stand by this statement ....No one pre LU20 had a problem with us doing massive DMG when it benefited them either in an instance or group or raid just as long as the masters and fables kept droping. I have yet to figure out SOE's master plan someday I might until then I wish all of the rangers good hunting.</font></p><p></p><p>Message Edited by MrDizzi on <span class="date_text">02-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:54 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>BedlamX</span></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<div></div><p>MrDizzi:</p><p>I, for one, appreciate your interest, and your constructive comments.  It is enlightening to me to hear the views of non-Rangers, and to get a more informed picture of the difficulties other classes face vis-a-vie Rangers.</p><p>Thank-you for participating, and, (at least from MY perspective), I hope you will not be put off and continue to be an active part of this discussion.</p><p>I am very encouraged that Blackguard will be looking closely at <strong>each</strong> tier of Rangers (using non-Legendary/Fabled gear) to evaluate just how these changes effect Rangers [AT <strong>ALL</strong> LEVELS  AND PLAY STYLES].  I am now a bit more confident that at least some of the issues I am concerned about (ie: soloing at mid levels with medicore equipment), will be examined, and (hopefully), corrected over the next several patches.</p>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<div>I know its only been a few days but it would seem to me that sony should peek in on this thread with an "we are here reading" post. This thread has been constructive and quite flame free from what I have read. If this gets us heard this type of constructive posting then SOE should support it. I know "we are here" isnt much but it helps to keep it possitive and constructive.</div><div>Any type of forward progress at this point is leaps and bounds imho.</div>

[physics20]

Ok I finally got a chance to test out my character and this is what I noticed.  First of all, I did not go to KoS (I'm only 56) so instead I went to SS and also tried out the Tears instances in Maj'Dul.  In all the cases, I was using only one poison (the cheap vendor bought poison) because I'm cheap.  In SS, I had no problem whatsoever killing giants (50^^^) and gnolls (51-52^^).  It took a little longer than before but I still used the same pre-LU20 strategy I had: snare and kite.I did however notice a big change in the Tears instances zones in Maj'Dul.  First of all, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that with the KoS expansion they added a few new Tears quests: in this case, I was asked to go into a house and evict the residents, who were all frogloks.  In all my time of doing Tears quests, I had never been given one where the Maj'Dul residents were frogloks.  Perhaps I was just incredibly unlucky, but these frogs were frickin' tough...at least alot more than the normal residents.  I think they were monks or something by the attacks they were doing, and they parried about half of my bow attacks (all my CAs are Adept I or better with most being Adept III and the one M2 Stealthy Fire).  Also, they seemed to break my Thorny Trap very easily.  So the first few times trying this zone, I had to flee because I was getting owned.  Finally, I changed my strategy a bit, and ran the frogs around in a circle and ranged autoattacked them to death, only using one CA on the pull.  Using my ranged autoattack my poison procc'ed nicely and they dropped.  Not too fun though...Though I haven't been to KoS yet, I was wondering if these parry issues, etc were being experienced in these new zones as well.  If these frogloks were added with KoS then maybe all the KoS mobs are parrying or dodging melee/bow attacks at an asanine rate, which might explain why some people have observed spellcasters having an easier time with them.  If that's the case, it might not just be rangers having problems, and perhaps it will be changed soon.  Just a thought. Also, up until this point, I have never been a proponent of allowing us to use our ranged CA's on the run.  While some people thought this made sense, I never thought it was too realistic (realism in EQ2? gasp).  I always thought ranged CA's were special attacks that required concentration and precision, and running around while doing them didn't make much sense.  Having said that, after the changes, I would like to see a few more of our CA's made so we can move and shoot.  The reason being that since our dps has been lowered by a sizeable amount, and many tougher mobs are resistant to our cheap shot, we are having to melee more than we used to in order to solo (or at least I have been).  This kind of goes against the spirit of my class, imo, and I'd like to see us still be able to solo while using most of our ranged CA's.  Just a suggestion.-Feynman<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div><p>Okay I got in a little playtime last night, so I can comment on #3</p><p>I can still solo effectively at level 43. I was finishing up some quests and I took down a group of 3 level 40 2 arrow down mobs. I went to Feerott and was fighting groups of 2 and 3 2 and 1 arrow down level 40 mobs. These are all blue groups to me.</p><p>However, non-arrow mobs may have gotten a bit of a beef up. Prior to LU20, I was taking no arrow blue mobs with relative ease. One hit with Triple Fire or Hidden Fire and they were down to yellow. I killed some no arrow green toilers last night in Zek and they weren't quite down to yellow, but I had no problems soloing them.</p><p>I took out the Left Hand of Thule, level 42 1 arrow up rather easily, although I had to run from his 3 arrow down blue buddies. But I went back and killed them with no issues.</p><p>So, I say I can still solo rather well. I did have the parser running and I capped out at about 200 DPS, but I don't have any records from before. From feel, however, I don't seem to be taking any longer to kill mobs I was killing before.</p>

[RustyB]

<div></div><p>I dunno guys....  from what I've read and seen  you guys were doing WAY too much dps for your class and the thing is  you all knew it!</p><p>was grouped with a ranger last night and he was still at teh top of the dps chart so  basicly you guys went from outrageous dps  to acceptable dps.</p><p>as for not being able to solo  solo mobs  now that's just sad =(</p>

[TaleraRis]

<div>For one, most statements I've seen from devs regarding rangers had to have been done comparing fully buffed raiding rangers. There's no way a solo ranger could get 4k DPS. So they don't seem to have looked across the board there, looking only at the very top and not surveying a variety of level, gear and spell ranges.</div><div> </div><div>For two, many here have said this sort of damage is insane. We know rangers were overpowered. What we're debating is if these changes were excessive, and I think they were.</div>

[nimbus2kgold]

<div>Ok.. killed a few more mobs and parsed some more situations.  It boils down to solo=we suck, grouped=not where we should be, but not as bad as I thought.</div><div> </div><div>Took on some average solo blue mobs (think it was 57, im 60) and parsed them.  DPS ranged from 125-200 depending.  Unacceptable in my book.</div><div> </div><div>Groups were a little better, but not by alot.  It was very eratic as well.  It ranged from 200-450 ( and the 450 was very very rare... maybe twice in the 2 hours of non-stop grind)  Seemed to hover right around 300 for most of the night. </div><div> </div><div>This was using Adestes and either Glox or Shissar, and if you want to see my gear <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=266227104">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=266227104</a>  I also have all masters or Ad3's.</div><div> </div><div>In comparison, the Fury was DPSing at about 450-500 consistantly ( something very wrong when the healer out DPS's the DPS ) and the conjurer was right about 600. (please dont read in that I want those guys nerfed.. I dont! I just want myself improved).  I will say, the Wizzy's need some love too, because he was right at 300 with me.</div><div> </div>

[A]

<div></div><p>I would agree with the above statement.</p><p>Solo is much harder but group isn't really that bad.</p><p>We don't really have to hold up on damage now and there are still key skills that provide very consistent dps in group.</p><p>One of them is Stream of Arrows which roughly provides 450+ dps for 30 seconds every minute, which somehow makes me question by the way how some people are parsing less than 200 dps as if you only used StoA and did nothing while it is down , on a long parse you should still be above 200 dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Nimana]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>physics2000 wrote:Ok I finally got a chance to test out my character and this is what I noticed.  First of all, I did not go to KoS (I'm only 56) so instead I went to SS and also tried out the Tears instances in Maj'Dul.  In all the cases, I was using only one poison (the cheap vendor bought poison) because I'm cheap.  In SS, I had no problem whatsoever killing giants (50^^^) and gnolls (51-52^^).  It took a little longer than before but I still used the same pre-LU20 strategy I had: snare and kite.I did however notice a big change in the Tears instances zones in Maj'Dul.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I too feel that I can solo decently when given the option to kite and snare. The question is whether we're able to perform well when fighting in close quarters or against mutli-mob encounters. Up to level 50 rangers only have 1 AoE attack. This attack requires stealth. Our melee abilities are limited, and partly positional, making life hard for rangers at times. Hopefully these issues will be addressed soon! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jay]

<div></div><p>I was told last night, rather urgently (in tells), that this thread was getting ugly and that it needed to be rectified. Reading these posts I'm not seeing much flaming or anything, besides accusations of lying and other minor ridiculousness. If someone doesn't believe you, let them; it's their own misery they seek to perpetuate. You know what you did, you know what you're capable of, and if you're using that experience to help other ppl, you're doing the right thing IMESFHO. Just ignore people who you can't reason with after one or two attempts.</p><p>This is a *major* adjustment for us. The biggest one in our lives as EQ2 rangers. I don't think it's hopeless, but I do sometimes feel that way. I know I need to relearn my game, discard all my old routines, and start from the ground up. I can't do half the damage I used to, and doing all that damage enabled me to slack on the basics of soloing as a scout class. If I got jumped by a blue ^ mob, I just laughed, stunned it, then vaporized it with two ranged CAs. I can't do that anymore; I'm stuck in melee, cycling HOs, using Honed Reflexes and other buffs to try and max my DPS. I need to relearn those basics.</p><p>Got about as discouraged as I can get last night when I'd get caught unawares and my monk partner wasn't immediately nearby to pull the mob off me. As I said to her, "I feel like I can't let go of Mommy's hand now." I used to walk around fearless - totally confident that just about anything with the temerity to start a fight with me would quickly regret it. Now, I enter stealth as soon as I zone in. I stay invisible so I don't aggro any wanderers or sneaky solo mobs. I re-stealth as soon as we finish fighting, b/c if I blunder into something and draw aggro, I'm going to lose a significant amount of health fighting it off on my own.</p><p>Hmmm...do I have a point? Probably not - I rarely do - but I'm coming to terms with this being a long, painful adjustment. I'm not adjusted yet, but I'm beginning to see that this will require that reacclimation. I'm getting past the anger that we're being forced to re-learn our class (again). We can still get by. I hope it gets back to being enough fun that I continue to enjoy the game. I hope Sony fixes us up a bit so we're not dealing with many factors limiting our effectiveness. I hope we aren't left behind and forgotten. But this is to some degree in our hands, to continue to collect information, raise awareness, and advocate for change.</p>

[dbmoreland]

Jay you hit the nail right on the head, dead on. Before LU20 we could get sloppy and we did. We walked around frearless knowing that any mob designed for an individual was toast in 30 seconds or less, many times dead with but a single bowshot. So we got sloppy, we stopped being a Ranger. We stopped "hunting". We just charged in and let the arrows fly and the mobs dropped. Now it is payback time. We have to relearn how to be a Ranger, how to be a hunter, how to use ALL of our CAs to there maximum effectiveness. For those like me that enjoy a challenge this is going to be a great fun time. Mobs will again fear us when we sneak up on the ONE mob we want, set our trap, let the arrows fly from our bow, draw the mob into our lair and proceed to beat the life out of him, just the way a true hunter should.Looking forward to the fun...<div></div>

[Runewind]

Things are starting to sound more positive today. maybe we aren't as bad as we thought. I haven't been on the last couple days (I went on once on tuesday and then got off) I've been a little too bummed out to actually try to get on and do anything. Some people have been reporting that there may have been some kind of stealth-fix this morning because they seem to be doing better today. Not sure about that. The jury is still out apparantly. I do hope things get better but someone reported doing about the same as a wizard and that's good. I actually honestly don't care if conjurers do more damage than us I'm more concerned with being even with classes meant to be Tier 1 DPS because I know it'll be easier for SOE to adjust around us if we're all where we should be in our tier. Out of curiosity, Jay have you parsed any numbers? You are pretty well respected here and rational so I would certainly trust you to parse numbers for us and I'm just curious as to what you're doing compared to other T1 DPS classes you know.<div></div>

[strider19]

<div></div><div>Well, to be honest I don't use a bow anymore.  Especially if soloing.  I get one shot off that does literally a 1/20th of the targets health worth of damage then by halfway through casting the second shot I'm already hit at close range.  At this point I'm screwed.  My strat right now is to just group with people and do melee dps.  It's funny how people complained about "kiting" and SOE's solution was to eliminate all our dps.  sigh</div>

[Stormykat]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div>First: I'm not going to tell anyone how to post, but I'm going to ask that you keep replies to THIS thread in the constructive and mature category. Go ahead and vent, rage, throw the tantrum if you need to - there are PLENTY of threads for that already. I'd like this one to be informative and help us answer some questions. Please respect that.</div><div> </div><div>Second: I know we're all seeing drastically reduced numbers, but IMO, comparing your DPS now with your DPS last week is just plain folly. Of course it's going to be much, much lower. We knew that. We were overpowered, now we're not. You can disagree all you want with how SOE accomplished "fixing" us, but just accept that the DPS we were doing is thing of the past. If you needed to be top dog in every group or raid to enjoy your toon, I'm sorry, but you probably should look elsewhere. I hear Baskin-Robbins is offering a great deal on summoners this month. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>We need to determine if the pendulum swung too far in reducing our DPS, and if it did, we need to figure out how to restore it to the level where we belong. I realize some of these questions will take more time testing and parsing to really answer, and that's fine. No hurry here. I'm looking for informative feedback derived from direct, firsthand experience. I'm also looking for information across levels and equipment - not just the end-game crowd.</div><div> </div><div>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?<font color="#cc66ff">No. After a few group fights with my ranger, I don't bring much to the group at all, with my poisons hardly procing at all, my archers frenzy rarely procing, same with my stun poison very rarely procing. </font></div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?<font color="#cc66ff">Poisons I feel are very much broken as they are hardly procing. </font></div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?<font color="#cc66ff">Not at all, I feel the fun has been taken out of the game for me. I could confidently handle solo encounters no problem , now it's a complete gamble. I'm not talking about yellows or oranges either, I'm talking blue and white con triple down arrow group mobs, or even con, or single up arrow. </font></div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?<font color="#cc66ff">At this point, no. Previously? Yes. I have no utility to bring to a raid, the only thing I had was my DPS, and now that's gone. We got slapped very hard with this update. </font></div><div> </div><div>Hoping that at least some of you can be level-headed enough to provide helpful information so we can identify the biggest problem areas. I know everyone is freaking out right now, that's fine, I'm not happy myself - and I encourage you to work out that frustration and anger in whatever way you see fit - but please don't go off on flame-fests and rants here; plenty of other threads for that.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks for your consideration and assistance.<font color="#cc66ff">I really hate sounding "doom and gloom" about things like this, cause I usually roll with the punches and deal with the little nerfs that come, but to put us back to where we were pre LU13 is just ridiculous. I feel I'm very well equipped with all adept 3 or master CA's all legendary and fabled armor, 1 legendary and 1 fabled weapon and all legendary poisons.  I feel gimpy pure and simple, and it was very frustrating to log on to try and enjoy the new expansion and to realise I could barely defend myself against a solo encounter mob/mobs. </font></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Gailstryd]

<div></div><p>I'll just go through and put out the facts I've seen from my parser so far.  I have't adjusted anything, gear etc. from before the patch, I'm still exactly the same gear and spells. </p><p>                  <u>Pre KoS</u>              <u>Post KoS</u></p><p><u>Solo DPS:</u>  300-500              100-250</p><p><u>Group DPS:</u>  400-600            150-300</p><p><u>Raid DPS:</u>  600-1100             250-450</p><p> </p><p>These are all rough averages over the course of 23 parses for Pre KoS and 6 parses for Post KoS.  It is a little early I don't have as broad a range of parses or more so as big a number of parses for post KoS as I'd like but I think I've pretty much seen what I need to and I can feel the decrease big time.  These are all my personal numbers so they may look different than other peeps.  Across the board before and after it was a mixed lot of mainly blue to yellow con fights with lows and highs.  My highest spike Pre KoS in order of solo to raid were (these are fights that lasted longer than 30sec) 1.2k, 1k, and 1.5k.  For post KoS in order solo to raid my spikes in dps were 300, 400, and 500.  These are rounded off of course I never actually managed to break 500 dps yet on my few raids since KoS, it topped off a like 489dps.  I've seen people get higher numbers, or I've seen them say htey have and I believe them but my numbers in general hurt.  Every aspect of the game from solo to raidign was a crawl and soloing was especially a tedious afair and far more dangerous than it should be especially given there are still a fair share of classes out their easily capable of soloing heroics and I have as of yet to beat anything higher than a ^ white con solo.  I was being outdps'd by bruisers and monks, and every dps class t2 or higher in all situations and found myself lagging 200-300 dps behind other classes on non AE raid fights and either just barely making top parse in AE ranged fights or being beaten by around 100dps or so.  That is for other melee dps.  Mages consistently outdps'd me in all fronts.  It may be a need to change play style which i did to the best of my abilities moving in to melee for extra dps when possible, trying to get my haste as high as possible, and using my dps increasers and auto attacks to my full abilities.  In my own personal experience, I was doing t2 and t3 dps numbers while a few classes from those tiers are still consistently doing t1 dps.  In all imho we need to be tweaked back up, we got hit with a 40%ish nerf with varying degrees by Ranger when we needed around only a 20% decrease to bring us in line.  I look forward hopefully to a tweaking of our CA damage or something to pipe us back up into t1.  As it stands now, it is extremely depressing to play my Ranger, even with all the new neat things from the expansion futily trying to prop my spirits up.  My raid force took a large, noticeable hit with our Moonchild fight taking 2 to 3 times longer for us to kill.  We had 3 rangers not as an exploit, but because that is how our Raid force grew up and it crashed our dps line up. </p><p>In all, I look forward to seeing my fellow Rangers around and to continued and furthered developement into this matter.  Hopefully, we will see some turn around.</p>

[Gailstryd]

<div></div>To give further weight to my post, I am a well geared Ranger.  I have all fabled/legendary gear about half and half.  I've played for a long time and feel as if I know my class well and find proof inthe fact that since the changes I always out dps both my Ranger counterparts.  In all, if I am making these numbers with a decent str, agi, and sub par int score plus self haste around 40%, imagine what it must be like for someone who doesn't raid and grind out gear.  Imagine what the numbers must be like for the casual or even medium ground playing character who has half of what anyone on the high end of gear has.  App4's and lower, no masters, no adept 3's, no fabled/legendary gear, and mediocre poisons may completely cripple a Ranger of said calibre no matter how good he is at his class.  I look at my numbers and cringe, I play and feel burdened to myself and to my group.  I wonder if I'd even still be here if I was "casual" geared.

[Mirdo]

<div>Gailstryder,</div><div> </div><div>I have only been able to parse one raid so far - Court of Al'Afaz but your numbers for raid DPS reduction correlate well with my own findings.</div><div> </div><div>I can't comment on solo or group since #20 as I haven't had a chance to play those styles yet. Hopefully tonight I can generate some data with a guild group.</div><div> </div><div>My gear is a mix of legendary / low end T6 fabled with all ranged CA's at A3 level.</div><div> </div><div>I'm just wondering how your damage compared to the other classes in your raids? I was below Necro pets but usually above the tanks - I can't give numbers or %ages yet but will do a slightly deeper analysis over the weekend if time permits.</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div>

[TaleraRis]

<div>I went into SP Upper Tunnels last night and I was having no issues soloing there, either the no arrow solo mobs, the one arrow down or the groups of mobs. I maxed out in DPS on my parser at about 300 on some of the groups. Now I'm by no means top of the line geared or anything, and I was just using cheap, storebought poison to test what the absolute bottom of the barrel is. Maxing at 300 just really is rather low, though. </div><div> </div><div>I think I'm not having as much trouble as most because of what Jay said. I am constantly in stealth, especially in any new areas. I choose my targets carefully, position myself to the most advantage, and I use my melee CAs on a regular basis. I can confirm that for up to no arrow mobs, Cheap Shot is NOT broken or reduced. I counted 6 seconds on it, the same as it's always been for me, and I'm able to Cheap Shot, Pouncing Attack, Crippling Blade, Surveil and Raven Embers all before the mob wakes up. I did it constantly last night in SP. I couldn't do that if it were only 1 or 2 seconds as some are reporting. I have noticed that one arrow up's do seem to only be 1 or 2 seconds, but I had noticed that was the stun duration on them prior to LU20, so I don't see a change there.</div>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Stylee Mc'Cutta 62 ranga Nek <Myrmidons></p><p>solo ability atm i would say is fine.... no class should really be able to take heroics within their level range, and while others can, thats no reason to whine that we no longer have the ability...</p><p>group dps- ridiculous. Once again comparisons arent really my thing, but pre lu13 or whateva it was, we were prolly worst class in game, and getting there now again... dps in groups is cut in less than half, and many tanks (zerkers and brawlers) can get AWEFULLY close to our parses, which are always lowest of the dps classes if your playin with people around your skill and gear level...our dps ability in groups is almost nullified. (mobs die too slow, cant burn to save group etc)</p><p>raid dps- i mean cmon. Multiply group parses by about 2x and thats what we parsed before... say a 60 ranger parsed 6-700 average on group mobs... usually parsed a little over 1k in single epic encounter raids.... now i parse between 250-350 average on groups... lets just go ahead and say that that makes it about 5-550 dps on raids without any utility? (<thats not even mentioning that we could proc b4 when the ca failed) No thanks...</p><p>im hoping that they did this to make server merges + xp gain smoother... that way groups of a guard, 3 rangers, enchanter and healer couldnt run thru whole zone bomb squad style...</p><p>but who am i kiddin</p><p> g'luck yall on getting groups and spots in raid!</p>

[Steezi]

<div></div>in relation to aa's bein what is supposed to make the difference... what aa's are gonna make the difference? HAh! there arent any that are gonna help until people get at least 16 points

[kartikeya]

<div></div><p>Did lots more soloing yesterday, and what can I say? There were times, streaks even, when I would be proccing nearly as much as I was before, and then the mobs would go down quite fast.</p><p>Then I would be going after the exact same mob, same level, same abilities, and he would swat me across the zone without blinking. My methods were exactly the same. Same poisons, same ability line up, everything. It was totally random. I never liked how much we were dependent on procs before, but at least with the nutty mechanic my damage was somewhat dependable. Now soloing is a matter of clicking and praying.</p><p> </p>

[chanaho]

 Speaking from soloing only.. Yes it was hit pretty hard from where we were. I founda bigger hit on my solo abilities after lu19 more so than lu20..at least lu19i really noticed it while lu20 was less so...only my personal opinion here though.  Having said that, and the fact that I have always semi role played my Ranger, Iactually enjoy the challenge now, at least in the open. I guess I'm the type that likes thesense of danger while playing. Before I didnt worry about things +/- around my level.I even had to go lvls above to get some satisfaction from the 1-2 shot incoming onthe lower/even lvls (and some V above lvl). The problem was the higher lvl ones when they got to you just hit to hard. This lefta small space for actually fighting head to head once they did get to you. Now, im restrictedto my lvl or lower. So when they get to me I can actually take some pain before oneof us goes down which means I need to bring my best game if its not going to be me.For power levelers ( which im not lvl56 after 14 month), this could be bad as Ibarely notice any exp gains on anything my lvl or lower.  What I wish though is to be able to use my bows more before they reach me. All myharvesting time and rares found were put into adept 3's for agro control  and Range ca's.That leaves all my melee ca's at adept 1 and pretty bad at that..  I also wish bow shots did not miss/get parried as much as they do. Didnt notice it muchbefore as some proc always seemed to land. The first time I noticed this was when I wentafter an even con, solo, no arrow harpy. I laid the trap, stealthy fire, sharp shot..then trapped.Noticed about 5-10 % off health. Now trapped, i let go with triple fire..first one hit then nothing.I fired thru all my range ca's that i could fire from front and it was still at about 60%. I wassort of dumbfounded and even more shocked as it was still trapped! Basically the randomgenerator and procing was totally not on my side for this pull. I ended up running to it andmeleeing it and with a sliver of health left I beat it. When in a group though, I want to do my job and deal damage..Bringing my lack of DPSI see solo into a grp doesnt make me feel good.  <div></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TwistedRiddles wrote:Out of curiosity, Jay have you parsed any numbers? You are pretty well respected here and rational so I would certainly trust you to parse numbers for us and I'm just curious as to what you're doing compared to other T1 DPS classes you know.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I actually haven't parsed yet myself. I recently reformatted and haven't re-installed the parsers yet. And I'm kind of avoiding doing so, even though I know the data would help. Right now, I just want to tool around in my shiny new wheelchair and have fun playing the game. I know parsing would be good, but I'm being selfish b/c I know that seeing those hard numbers would just bring me down and get me stuck in a rut of frustration, bitterness, and anger. I don't want to do that to myself, and I don't want to do it to my friends. I'll ruin their good time if I'm being all [Removed for Content], and they shouldn't have a lousy night adventuring just b/c MY class got nerfed, ya know?</p><p>Anyway, if I do suck it up and actually parse, I'll post here. And then you'll all see just how lame I really am. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Zholain]

<div></div><font size="2">We don't care what your parsed numbers would show.  We would still love ya regardless.    <span>:smileyhappy:</span></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Zholain on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:43 PM</span></p>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><div>Well just aslong as it doesn't show the number of rose pedals used <shivers and runs away></div><div> </div><div>HEY! How come you got a shiney wheelchair mines kinda rusty <grumbles></div>

[Cron]

I did discover one thing last night. I was grouped with two guildies, a 61 mystic and a 60 Illusionist. We were fighting in Barren Sky on Prisoner Isle. I think they are 65 solo mobs. I had run out of poison and clicked on Ravaging Disruption to use it up. They all beat me in DPS, including their pets. I was doing in the realm of 45 dps. They were hitting around 75-90. I put my Adeste's back on and started hitting around 200 again. I'll try to take the time and post shots of ACT, but I'm still going over the numbers and figuring it all out. Mobs are taking longer for sure, but I'm still having fun playing.Give this a little time guys. They fixed a "bug" so that they could control our output better. Now they need data to see what it is we are doing and what needs fixed now that we are predictable. Hopefully soon they will boost us. I'm still grouping and my spot on Sunday's raid party is still there.

[dbmoreland]

Can we still do our job? YesCan we still do our job exactly the same way today that we did "it" at ANY time in the past? NOThis game we all play called EQ2 is changing. It has changed 20 times (with every LU) in the last 16 months and twice significantly in the last 6 (with the release of each of  the two expansions). Each update has effected EVERY single player of this game to varying degrees depending on what class, level and play style they were using at the time of the update. This last update effected those of us playing level 50+ rangers significantly. In my mind the "key" to figuring out how to play our "new" rangers is to "figure out" KoS and the new mechanics introduced with it, especialy the new AAs. Did you all honestly expect to play exactly the same character with exactly the same abilities exactly the same way for the next ten levels as you did for the last 10??? I hope not, because I sure didn't. I suspect when we all figure out the new stuff KoS has to offer, especialy the AAs, we will be having as much fun playing this game in KoS as we did riping the mobs apart in DoF. At least I hope so. It will surly take me more than a couple of days to determine the answer for myself. It did last Sept with DoF, in fact it took two months before I was convinced it was worth it.Looking forward to the new adventure...<div></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zholain wrote:<div></div><font size="2">We don't care what your parsed numbers would show.  We would still love ya regardless.    <span>:smileyhappy:</span></font><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You're the best, Cat.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zholain wrote:<div></div><font size="2">We don't care what your parsed numbers would show.  We would still love ya regardless.    <span>:smileyhappy:</span></font><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>You're the best, Cat.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><hr></blockquote>Hey.. I've always known you were a mediocre player but I'm still your buddy... where's my kudos?Just chain yanking ya Kae.

[Nimana]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Finally found some time to group. Fought mobs in the War room in Clefts of Rujark. Pick up group consisting of Micha 51 wiz; Turmoil 51 guard; Odball 52 myst (later replaced by Jawi, 52 fury) Proa 50/51 dirge (dinged rather early), and myself, Morningstar 50 ranger (dinged 51 about 15 mins before group broke up). I have no fabled/ledgendary items, and mostly adept 1 CAs ( a few app1).</p><p>We also had a 53 wiz in group for a while, but he was kicked for leeching (being mostly afk). I've removed his name from the parse results...</p><p>Fought roughly 100 mobs, mostly steelslave watchers and vanquishers and some nameds (Warlord Cholak (3 times), Gorakhul the Annihilator and Rakurjahl the warbringer). All mobs were yellow conned heroics, arrows up (I THINK most of them are level 52-53 (?)).</p><p> </p><p>Here are the parse results:</p><p>Allies: (45:36) 1998084 | 730,29Morningstarx 645324 | 235,86Micha 424583 | 155,18Turmoil 363307 | 132,79Proa 334304 | 122,19Jawi 110293 | 40,3153 wizard 92496 | 33,81Oddball 27777 | 10,15</p><p><?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><EncounterTable Name="Encounters | Merged - (2/25) 01:40:11">   <Row>       <Name>Morningstarx</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:40:16</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:25:47</EndTime>       <Duration>2731</Duration>       <Damage>645324</Damage>       <Kills>47</Kills>       <Healed>0</Healed>       <DPS>236,2959</DPS>       <ExtDPS>235,864</ExtDPS>       <Hits>2893</Hits>       <Misses>100</Misses>       <Blocked>29</Blocked>       <Swings>3022</Swings>       <DamageTaken>10768</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>0</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>Micha</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:40:17</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:25:44</EndTime>       <Duration>2727</Duration>       <Damage>424583</Damage>       <Kills>10</Kills>       <Healed>0</Healed>       <DPS>155,696</DPS>       <ExtDPS>155,1838</ExtDPS>       <Hits>1369</Hits>       <Misses>0</Misses>       <Blocked>40</Blocked>       <Swings>1409</Swings>       <DamageTaken>4095</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>0</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>Turmoil</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:40:12</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:25:46</EndTime>       <Duration>2734</Duration>       <Damage>363307</Damage>       <Kills>17</Kills>       <Healed>7330</Healed>       <DPS>132,8848</DPS>       <ExtDPS>132,7876</ExtDPS>       <Hits>2936</Hits>       <Misses>228</Misses>       <Blocked>264</Blocked>       <Swings>3428</Swings>       <DamageTaken>167081</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>1</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>Proa</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:40:14</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:25:47</EndTime>       <Duration>2733</Duration>       <Damage>334304</Damage>       <Kills>14</Kills>       <Healed>1753</Healed>       <DPS>122,3213</DPS>       <ExtDPS>122,1871</ExtDPS>       <Hits>3465</Hits>       <Misses>485</Misses>       <Blocked>19</Blocked>       <Swings>3969</Swings>       <DamageTaken>11973</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>0</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>Jawi</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:58:25</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:25:46</EndTime>       <Duration>1641</Duration>       <Damage>110293</Damage>       <Kills>3</Kills>       <Healed>72597</Healed>       <DPS>67,21085</DPS>       <ExtDPS>40,31177</ExtDPS>       <Hits>578</Hits>       <Misses>0</Misses>       <Blocked>19</Blocked>       <Swings>597</Swings>       <DamageTaken>7609</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>1</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>a Steelslave vanquisher</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:40:11</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:25:46</EndTime>       <Duration>2735</Duration>       <Damage>102801</Damage>       <Kills>1</Kills>       <Healed>0</Healed>       <DPS>37,5872</DPS>       <ExtDPS>37,57346</ExtDPS>       <Hits>336</Hits>       <Misses>92</Misses>       <Blocked>198</Blocked>       <Swings>626</Swings>       <DamageTaken>964697</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>53</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>53 wizard</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:40:14</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:08:31</EndTime>       <Duration>1697</Duration>       <Damage>92496</Damage>       <Kills>6</Kills>       <Healed>0</Healed>       <DPS>54,5056</DPS>       <ExtDPS>33,80702</ExtDPS>       <Hits>72</Hits>       <Misses>0</Misses>       <Blocked>3</Blocked>       <Swings>75</Swings>       <DamageTaken>7167</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>1</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>a Steelslave watcher</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:40:29</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:24:58</EndTime>       <Duration>2669</Duration>       <Damage>76106</Damage>       <Kills>1</Kills>       <Healed>0</Healed>       <DPS>28,5148</DPS>       <ExtDPS>27,81652</ExtDPS>       <Hits>279</Hits>       <Misses>59</Misses>       <Blocked>147</Blocked>       <Swings>485</Swings>       <DamageTaken>899175</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>43</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>Oddball</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:40:45</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:02:26</EndTime>       <Duration>1301</Duration>       <Damage>27777</Damage>       <Kills>4</Kills>       <Healed>17947</Healed>       <DPS>21,3505</DPS>       <ExtDPS>10,15241</ExtDPS>       <Hits>256</Hits>       <Misses>7</Misses>       <Blocked>3</Blocked>       <Swings>266</Swings>       <DamageTaken>5899</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>0</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>Warlord Tcholak</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T02:01:25</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T02:25:36</EndTime>       <Duration>1451</Duration>       <Damage>21746</Damage>       <Kills>0</Kills>       <Healed>0</Healed>       <DPS>14,98691</DPS>       <ExtDPS>7,9481</ExtDPS>       <Hits>49</Hits>       <Misses>10</Misses>       <Blocked>19</Blocked>       <Swings>78</Swings>       <DamageTaken>79881</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>3</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>Gorakhul the Annihilator</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:54:22</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T01:55:33</EndTime>       <Duration>71</Duration>       <Damage>10817</Damage>       <Kills>1</Kills>       <Healed>0</Healed>       <DPS>152,3521</DPS>       <ExtDPS>3,953582</ExtDPS>       <Hits>21</Hits>       <Misses>8</Misses>       <Blocked>11</Blocked>       <Swings>40</Swings>       <DamageTaken>27740</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>1</Deaths>   </Row>   <Row>       <Name>Rakurjahl the Warbringer</Name>       <StartTime>2006-02-25T01:46:23</StartTime>       <EndTime>2006-02-25T01:46:53</EndTime>       <Duration>30</Duration>       <Damage>3713</Damage>       <Kills>1</Kills>       <Healed>0</Healed>       <DPS>123,7667</DPS>       <ExtDPS>1,357091</ExtDPS>       <Hits>11</Hits>       <Misses>2</Misses>       <Blocked>2</Blocked>       <Swings>15</Swings>       <DamageTaken>26591</DamageTaken>       <Deaths>1</Deaths>   </Row>   </EncounterTable></p><p>I tried maximising my dps, but being in a pick up group I can't really say what the others were doing...</p><p>Now, this group may not  be representative, people may have been slacking, I wouldn't know. But based on my experience so far, soloing and grouping, the answer to your initial question seems to be: Yes, we CAN still do our job. We just can't do it as superbly as we used to...</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:32 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:41 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:56 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:58 PM</span></p>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Little private message for coyote...</p><p>Thankya sir for bein around... i actually think that these lil parodies a; shed light on probs and b; [Removed for Content] crack me up...</p><p>good to get online and see some mega nerf, everyone in the world up in arms in one direction or anotha, and be able to have a laugh while checkin it all out....</p><p>Aye, your info is accurate, rangers were overpwerd solo and some could take on mobs above their con, we we overpwerd groupd and could in ourselves= a whole group of otha dps'ters. A nerf was called for, it was just too big. Like scary too big. I suppose that may even be why i find so much value in humoring the subjuect...</p><p>For any ranger that didnt see a big nerf comin after Lu13 what were u thinkin... i even made other toons because of that specifically...(summoners i highly recommend u do the same if u cant handle what happend to us) I know a few rangers who are depressed and wont talk to peeps in game... man thats just unhealthy! Develop better relationships with your man gear! Relieves so much stress...</p><p>Coyote keep up with the parody, we'll keep flamin ya, (maybe get a good resposne everynow and then likey this one!)</p><p>Stylee Mc'Cutta 62 ranga Nek</p><p><Myrmidons></p>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Btw as for parses... a ranger that is fully fabled, has about 440 str and 365 agi, translucent adeste's and all master and adept 3 skills parses even with a warlock/brig/swash 2 levels lower in all t5 treasured... (around 350-400 average on even conned heroics, down to about 200-300 on yellow con) We parse about even with a fully decked out brawler, a little better than a fully decked out bezerker, and actually the better guardians on the server can come close... Any 1st or 2nd tier dps class if played with equal skill easily surpasses us...</p><p>Every class in the game is nearly unstoppable if a; played to purpose and b; decked out with all the best gear raid guilds can get. It is simply a matter of workin long hours at it... Bottom line, a ranger now has to work too hard to dps even with anybody. For rangers who couldnt solo even conned heroics prepatch, i have absolutely no idea how u solo at all now... even conned solo mob i must use the same tactics i did previously on heroics, - the stun poison...</p><p>I've been relegated myself formin my own purpose, such as when tank or healer is low on health throw inna cheap shot for xtra time, if i see someone about to take an add, slow it and bring it to tank etc...We track, we disarm, we evak, we can pull the named from across the room.... what else can we do? And how do we now get spots on raids if nothing we do is applicable?</p><p>I'm not goin to quit the game or anything ridiculous like that, and those that are quitting because of this may not want to play mmos... but i find myself loggin out quickly much more often now to do other things...</p><p>Ranger for life, Sylee Mc'Cutta (62) Nek</p><p><Myrmidons></p>

[Bellessimo]

<div>Hi  peeps ,  <u><font color="#ff0000"> I<strong> would really love to know  how we were overpowered</strong></font> </u>?????</div><div> </div><div>We  offer  no attributes to a group , only have a  fire  debuff   and  can  snare ..</div><div> </div><div>So  this said  we need to be  the  top   DPS </div><div> </div><div>Was in a group  last night  fighting  in the nest  group make up was  me60 ,guardian61,warden 59,templar60,bruiser60,brig 60</div><div> </div><div>ok   i was   mostly  3 or 4 th in  dps  parses   gaurdian  was right  below me  avg  around  300 400 ish</div><div> </div><div>Couldnt  hit the  orange  con mobs but half the time with bow  but  hit   80 %  of the time  with  meelee  i have   formans shank and   blade of center  gear  is almost all fabled   or legendary    our CA's now absoutly suck  along with our  DPS</div><div> </div><div>I feel like  i need to  reroll and  play  a  warlock  as  they are the top of the food chart now  i wanted to be the  dps master  along side of the assassign  but now  i am  a  bench warmer  that gets groups  if there is no one else avail  and/or  i am   invited  by pitty</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><u><font color="#ff0000"><strong>IMO  we  we  no where near over powered  we were  where we  should  be  in the top 3  in dps   depending on fight  or  group make up</strong>   </font></u></div><div><u><font color="#ff0000"></font></u> </div><div><font color="#ffffcc"><strong>So  now what do we do   i  can  solo in the barren pretty well aginst  yellow  con mobs  i have no problem with them and   have  gotten to 61  from groups in the  nest and a little soloing along with  quests so soloing  is still doable  and  if you cannot take a blue con mob  arrow ^^^  you need to reroll your charater   cause you  are not playing   a ranger to full potential  i was always   in top 3  for  dps  most of the time  hitting  over 1k in  dmg  on raids   with focus  fire master and   SoA   can useally get  that off 2 times in a named fight   this is  my  2 cents    take as you will but  i  know  feel useless   and  hard to  play  my toon   if i wasnt  in  a guild and  the   only woodworker  i  would   have  quit game </strong></font></div><div><strong><font color="#ffffcc"></font></strong> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffffcc">Thanks   </font></strong></div><div><strong><font color="#ffffcc"></font></strong> </div><div><strong><font color="#ffffcc">Bellessimo 61  Danger  Ranger </font></strong></div><div><strong><font color="#ffffcc">60 Woodworker</font></strong></div><div><strong><font color="#ffffcc"></font></strong> </div>

[Jay]

<div></div><div></div><p>No. We *were* overpowered. Maybe you didn't see it, maybe you didn't push the boundaries to see just how much power you could wield, but we really were in a DPS tier all our own. I don't blame you for liking it, I did too - but as one ranger to another, I encourage you to just let go of the Uber Ranger Era, let it rest, be proud you were a part of the class at its perigee (thanks Gwyn!), and for your own sanity, learn to accept that we cannot and should not do that much damage anymore. It was fun while it lasted, but it had to end sometime.</p><p>Unfortunately, I was hoping it wouldn't end with such a hammer blow. I'm still shocked at the sheer magnitude and number of changes SOE implemented simultaneously b/w LU19 and LU20 that left us crumpled and bleeding on the floor. The proc changes would have been hard enough to handle, but screwing with CA ranges, recast timers, Thorny Trap, poisons, and multi-shot attacks all at once was ridiculous.</p><p>EDIT: Made myself look a little less stupid.</p><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class="date_text">02-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:38 PM</span></p>

[TaleraRis]

Actually that would be perigee <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Apogee would be the lowest point <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[LexLuthr69]

<div></div><div>And now everyone is giving us our Eulogy?  :smileytongue:</div><div> </div><div>I can't believe I'm actually posting, but this sledgehammer hurt.  I've been playing this toon since day 1, back in Nov. '04.  I honestly feel like I'm doing as much damage as I did pre-LU13.  Nothing spectacular, nothing great.  It's there, and I still do damage, but nothing what I think T1 should be.</div><div> </div><div>In my opinion, they implemented too many restraints at once, to our ability to do damage.  Taking away the ability to proc off multi-hit CA, AND changing the timer used to calculate procs was a huge change in game mechanics.  One that I know they did not test for long enough.  Had they only done one or the other, we may have been better off, without quite so many folks becoming somewhat depressed over our situation (me included).  Frustration and anger follow not long behind.</div><div> </div><div>Here are a couple suggestions I've thought of recently:</div><div> </div><div>One obvious one would be to add back in the ability to proc off multi-hit CA.  If we have to spend an arrow to do damage, then we should have the ability to proc off that arrow.</div><div> </div><div>Allow us to do some, if not all, of our ranged CA up front in melee range.  If not that, then do something similar to how they changed mobs that would path "too far".  There are a couple issues with us being forced to be at a minimum range from target.  Too many times when lag has been high, I've pulled a mob with a CA, then clicked on the next CA, only to have the Mob close w/in melee range before the cast time has gone off.  If they could change the minimum range rule to allow CAs started in range, to complete even on a mob that has closed to melee range, I honestly believe that would help us solo better. </div><div> </div><div>If they decide that the decisions they've made regarding procs are the best route for the game, then they must increase our melee damage.  The two DoT melee abilities were adequate for doing damage before when we could get back out to bow range again, but now they need to be less DoT and more DD.</div><div> </div><div>As for your questions, Jay:</div><div> </div><div>1.  Yes, we do still contribute damage to a group, but like others have said, not even close to other "Tier 1" classes.</div><div> </div><div>2.  I don't know if it was broken, or intended, but Debilitating Arrow line or CA should still be able to be used while on the move.  A better choice for a bow CA to be used on the move would be our Leg Shot line.  But I'm not holding my breath.</div><div> </div><div>3.  I am able to solo effectively, as long as I have all my CAs up, and I'm in an area to kite.  Preferably near other groups who might take pity on me and heal me, and or drop a nuke on the mob for me.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>4.  I honestly can't comment on this because I've not been in a raid since the expansion was released.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>I do not pretend to believe that we were meant to be the all powerful damage dealers we were after LU13, but when that's all we contribute, you can't argue that it was easy to believe that maybe someone actually recognized what our class was meant to do.  Especially if you consider that I was easily spending 2pp a day on poisons.  2 PLATINUM!!  I'd like to see any other class tell me they spent that much to do their "job".</div><div> </div><div>Jay, you're an inspiration to us all.  Thanks for keeping us in line, and not allowing us to tear ourselves apart.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Lexic Who</div><div>Antonia Bayle, 61 Twig Thrower, Berry Pooper</div><div>Officer, Path of the Hero</div>

[Steezi]

<div><div>And now everyone is giving us our Eulogy?  <img width="16" border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" height="16"></div><div> </div><div>I can't believe I'm actually posting, but this sledgehammer hurt.  I've been playing this toon since day 1, back in Nov. '04.  I honestly feel like I'm doing as much damage as I did pre-LU13.  Nothing spectacular, nothing great.  It's there, and I still do damage, but nothing what I think T1 should be.</div><div> </div><div>In my opinion, they implemented too many restraints at once, to our ability to do damage.  Taking away the ability to proc off multi-hit CA, AND changing the timer used to calculate procs was a huge change in game mechanics.  One that I know they did not test for long enough.  Had they only done one or the other, we may have been better off, without quite so many folks becoming somewhat depressed over our situation (me included).  Frustration and anger follow not long behind.</div><div> </div><div>Here are a couple suggestions I've thought of recently:</div><div> </div><div>One obvious one would be to add back in the ability to proc off multi-hit CA.  If we have to spend an arrow to do damage, then we should have the ability to proc off that arrow.</div><div> </div><div>Allow us to do some, if not all, of our ranged CA up front in melee range.  If not that, then do something similar to how they changed mobs that would path "too far".  There are a couple issues with us being forced to be at a minimum range from target.  Too many times when lag has been high, I've pulled a mob with a CA, then clicked on the next CA, only to have the Mob close w/in melee range before the cast time has gone off.  If they could change the minimum range rule to allow CAs started in range, to complete even on a mob that has closed to melee range, I honestly believe that would help us solo better. </div><div> </div><div>If they decide that the decisions they've made regarding procs are the best route for the game, then they must increase our melee damage.  The two DoT melee abilities were adequate for doing damage before when we could get back out to bow range again, but now they need to be less DoT and more DD.</div><div> </div><div>As for your questions, Jay:</div><div> </div><div>1.  Yes, we do still contribute damage to a group, but like others have said, not even close to other "Tier 1" classes.</div><div> </div><div>2.  I don't know if it was broken, or intended, but Debilitating Arrow line or CA should still be able to be used while on the move.  A better choice for a bow CA to be used on the move would be our Leg Shot line.  But I'm not holding my breath.</div><div> </div><div>3.  I am able to solo effectively, as long as I have all my CAs up, and I'm in an area to kite.  Preferably near other groups who might take pity on me and heal me, and or drop a nuke on the mob for me.  <img width="16" border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" height="16"></div><div> </div><div>4.  I honestly can't comment on this because I've not been in a raid since the expansion was released.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>I do not pretend to believe that we were meant to be the all powerful damage dealers we were after LU13, but when that's all we contribute, you can't argue that it was easy to believe that maybe someone actually recognized what our class was meant to do.  Especially if you consider that I was easily spending 2pp a day on poisons.  2 PLATINUM!!  I'd like to see any other class tell me they spent that much to do their "job".</div><div> </div><div>Jay, you're an inspiration to us all.  Thanks for keeping us in line, and not allowing us to tear ourselves apart.  <img width="16" border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" height="16"></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Lexic Who</div><div>Antonia Bayle, 61 Twig Thrower, Berry Pooper</div><div>Officer, Path of the Hero</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>perfection in its entirety Lexic</div></div>

[athitchcock]

<div><div>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?</div><div><font color="#3300ff"><font color="#ff0000">Yes, unless the group requires us to be teir 1 dps</font>.</font></div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?</div><div><font color="#3300ff"><font color="#ff0000">Skills seem to be changed more than broken, they still work just not as effectively</font>.</font></div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?</div><div><font color="#3300ff"><font color="#ff0000">No, at 60 I was barely able to survive against a solo down arrow 2 mob encounter 4 levels below me</font>.</font></div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?</div><div><font color="#ff0000">I don't know. My first post lvl 40 and post LU20 raid was against Darathar. According to parses rangers were in T1 dps, but we weren't successful.</font></div><div> </div><div> </div></div>

[Kompton]

<div>in my opinion, im having a little less fun and a bit more stress in its place, wich cant be good <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?hell yes, i can steal aggro from anything when i make a mistake, ussually once my poisons kick in, an event so rare there is a server wide broadcast when it happens. hehe</div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?cheap shot was reduced too much, trick shot is only of use after a fight has started to help the tank maintain hate, it does not do its job and should be replaced with something usefull (it is meant to be used to let rangers pull, try it .....it is broken)  . snipe shot lost the stun a pitty . we are a ranged class, why are they doing theyre utmost to stop us fighting at ranger. ?</div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?yes but at a much greater risk. i cant say its too bad, however if my poison doesnt kick in i end up in melee with a virtually full health mob, rangers dont melee that well solo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?plenty as i said i can still steal aggro when i get overly lucky with poison etc, ive waited 20+ seconds before engaging and instantly stolen aggro from the tank.i either do 0 damage or virtually kill the thing myself.i have no trouble getting in a group or raid, although my damage output is somewhat unreliable now.i think they have made too many changes. i do beleive they need to give us a more reliable stun, something as reliable and re castable as a wizard root.i cant say they overly ruined the class or that i struggle in any way to group, im a little dissapointed by how i now sometimes do no damage what so ever with my ranged strikes, if thats all down to poison procs then they need to boost the base strength of some of our skills i think.but still, they said it was a balance issue.take a 24 conjurer into splitpaw any mission you will cake walktake a 32 ranger in, suffer suffer suffer, it all ends in failureso did they really need to nerf the rangers ? i think not.</div><div></div>

[Steezi]

<div>good posts all around, but keep in mind we dont want this to be about nerfing summoners...</div>

[Jay]

<div></div><p>ROFL @ server-wide messages every time poison procs... classic. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>We should at least start announcing it to our groups, right? "Guys! Hey guys!! My poison just proc'd!!! No, really it did! OMG there's a Quick Shot too OMG TAKE ME TO VEGAS RIGHT NOW!!"</p>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><p>But if we go to Vegas we cant talk about our procs.  Cause:</p><p>"What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!"</p><p>I only wish they had done the changes to Rangers in Vegas so they would have stayed there :smileytongue:</p>

[Zholain]

<div><span><font size="2">OK.  After a couple raids this weekend, I think I have a better feel for the changes than in my previous post.</font><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Jay42 wrote:</font><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?<font color="#ffff00">My own personal experience tells me that my dps is decent, but not adequate.  And I believe I can say that this is solely due to the sheer number of blocks and parries (I'll say more about this in a moment).  Everything I've fought in KoS simply has a rediculous amount of parries</font></font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?<font color="#ffff00">I'm not sure if any are actually broken, but the feel of them is different.  It seems that they take a lot longer to cast, but I think that is due to the lag in all of the KoS areas.  SOE needs to do something about this, because sometimes it renders the expansion areas unplayable.  Also, we have some CA's whose value now is questionable.</font></font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">3. Are you able to solo effectively?<font color="#ffff00">I still haven't done much soloing, but the little I have done...WOW...what a difference.  It's exponentially more difficult than prior to LU20, and significantly more difficult than prior to LU13, even.</font></font></div><div><font size="2"> </font></div><div><font size="2">4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?<font color="#ffff00">This relates to t6 only.  I specifically asked our guild leaders to raid some t6 stuff this past weekend just so I could get a comparison before and after.  I don't think they were specifically accomodating me, but that's what happened nonetheless.I still have a lot to offer to a raid in regards to dps.  However, it is MUCH more difficult now to get up to about 2/3 of where I were before.  I can do this under ideal circumstances, meaning Sniper Shot is up, I can get behind the mob, my ranged buffs are up, and the mob is sufficiently debuffed against piercing and poison. That being said, raiding actually felt more like what a raid should feel like.  Power management is now a real issue, as it should be.  The fights were drawn out encounters that at no point could I say 'We got this easy'.  Before this past weekend, the only real doubts I had about wiping was on the pull.  If we made it past the pull, I always felt like we stood better than a 90% chance of succeeding.  That is not the case now.  Success was in doubt throughout the length of most encounters, with the exception of the easier trash.  I parsed everything we did this past weekend, and it was nearly always another ranger and myself competing for the top spot.  What I found surprising was some the classes that were VERY close behind us (I won't mention which ones.  Don't want to put anything out there that could cause the same thing to happen to them that happened to us).  One thing that was abundantly clear is that wizzards still need a boost in most cases, and a big boost in certain situations, such as heat resistant mobs.</font></font></div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00"><font size="2">OK.  Back to the parry thing.  It's rediculous.  If SOE intends for us to be a melee class, then don't give us 11 or so bow attacks and 4 pathetically weak frontal melee attacks.  Bow attacks should have the same block/parry rate as melee attacks.  But when I look at the larger picture, I see SOE changing the basic mechanics of combat.  The raid targets we were fighting this past weekend were 64 and up epic mobs.  Most of the mobs I've fought in KoS are 64 and 65 ^^'s and ^^^'s.  The KoS heroics parry more than DoF epics.  Also, it appears as if buffs/debuffs actually mean a lot more in KoS.One thing that does bother me.  It takes a LOT for me to draw agro now.  Granted, I have Primal Agility Ad 3 up all the time.  But the only time I have been able to draw agro is when all CA's were up, I used Sniper Shot Ad 3 shortly after the pull without using any other de-agro abilities.  In my opinion this is not balanced.  Yes, SOE could take this to mean that we need our de-agro skills to negate less hate.  I hope that is not how they will interpret it however.  The answer in my opinion is about 15 - 20% more dps.After realizing some of these things, I had much more fun playing this past weekend than I had the prior week.  But we still need something done about general dps.  I'm not even sure an increase in base damage of our CA's would help all that much considering how much our shots get blocked/parried.  I wish I could snap my fingers and be level 65 for about an hour.  Perhaps then I could get an even better feel for how difficult heroic KoS mobs really are.</font></font></span></div>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><p>Zholain,</p><p> The apparent disparity between ability to DPS in groups (not so good) and raids (not bad) in your experience is interesting.</p><p>Do you think the main difference in damage output was the debuffs applied to the raid mobs?</p><p>How does stream perform for you in the two different situations? </p><p>Mirdo.</p>

[Dark_Sun]

<div>regarding dps.</div><div> </div><div>i have been parsing our grp in Awakening Palace yesterday, and the day before.</div><div> </div><div>as a swashi 54-55 i did around 400-500 dps on most mobs (grp of 2-3). Rangers in our grp did around 200-600, but mostly average was 350+. I noticed dps is very unstable, it varies a lot, maybe its better on single encounters, i dont know. But i do know that rangers should do a lot more dps than me, since i as swashi at least have some utility that you dont have.</div><div> </div><div>I still consider its a good dps, but im sure that you supposed to be better. Maybe that will change when we all get used to KOS, and get our AA lines to the top. But i do hope you will get some love and get fixed.</div>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Was harvesting around in Barren Sky today, killin a few mobs between nodes... pulling without too much difficulty, i was taking out groups with trap and having no probs goin toe to toe with these lvl 63 lizards.. (solo encounters, im a 62 fairly decked out in raid fabled n stoofs... i shouldnt have a problem with these after all aye?)</p><p>So i kill about 10 encounters without going below 80% health, which is different, cause prenerf we didnt get touched...(and granted this is about where it should be, a yellow arrow down takin me to about 80% at most) All of a sudden, the 11th pull decides that his race has had enough, and immediately resists culling, leg shot, and noose. I cheap shot, duck behind and longshank into ranger blade, which is parried or whatever. He turns around, and i point blank him, which is interrupted. Cast again, and it hits. Down to 50%... mob at about 90% still..(dmg on leg shot hit, not slow... culling outright pwned) back up, triple arrow, one arrow hits.</p><p>Resigned to my fate, i decide not to evac so i can see what will happen... and this guy musta been a monk, cause i think he hundred hand slapped me....</p><p>well, i died. and i was [Removed for Content]. really [Removed for Content].</p><p>But it actually turned out ok, cause i died again right after in an extremely funny way....(pinballed between two tornados, one finally ended up launching me up and over the entire island i was on out into the open air on the other side...by kind of a lot too....was busting my gut for about 3 minutes)</p><p>So to you SOE, i raise my glass... because at least when u make a bug, u [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well make a fine one!</p>

[subari]

<div></div><div></div><p>First i apologize for my bad english, but SOE only forces us german speaking people to read english, not to write it. :smileywink:</p><p>My ranger is lvl 58 and has only legendary t6 stuff and three A3-spells. My first experience with LU20 was in KoS. These funny flowers level 56. I didn't take notice of the changes, so i was really surprised, when these walking salad reached me with 80% health, telling me, what he thinks of the arrows sticking in his as. By the shock, he had put me down on 20% health left, when i got rid of him in close combat.</p><p>The following encounters went better, but were long to fight. The effectiveness of fire- or tripple-shot is near zero. Imo i deal more dam with my two short range weapons without spells. In group i only used the high-dam-ranged spells and then closed in. On a raid las sunday, i nearly felt usefull, because a ranger still deals damage, when all mages are oom. I did not see any problems beeing a DD on the same level as a mage, my groupmates felt the same way. </p><p>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups? -> Not as i'm supposed to do. Bevore LU20 it already was hard to find a group out of my own gild. Since LU20 nobady seems to have a place left for an broken arrow. Luckily i can count on my guildm8. I have no usefull groupbuffs, i can't take much dam, i can't heal, i'can't do realy much dam. A guildmate said: But you're still nice looking! :smileyindifferent:</p><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?</div><div>Tripple-Arrow, Stream of Arrows. I find no use for them since lu20, for in cc (imo) i deal more dam.</div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?</div><div>I admit, that before LU20 and after LU13 solomobs were to simple to fight. But SOE has given us no root, no effective cc-spell and most of ranged attacks had to be cast when standing still. What else is our option, than do most of our dam by ranging, with the first two shots? Now there is only one spell left (cloaked ranged attack) that deal nearly a good starting dam, if lucky, i can cast one other ranged spell bevore the mob reaches me.</div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?</div><div>In a raid we are the only class, that is able to deal acceptable long range dam, after all mages are oom. So we are a nice backup char, but not anymore first choice.</div><div> </div><div>My comment to LU20: Frustrating! Bevor i was a nice looking heavy artillerie, now i'm only good looking.</div><div> </div><div>greetings</div><div>suba</div><p>Message Edited by subaridu on <span class="date_text">02-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:14 PM</span></p>

[Zholain]

<div><span><blockquote><hr><font size="2">Mirdo wrote:</font><p><font size="2">Zholain,</font></p><p><font size="2"> The apparent disparity between ability to DPS in groups (not so good) and raids (not bad) in your experience is interesting.</font></p><p><font size="2">Do you think the main difference in damage output was the debuffs applied to the raid mobs?</font></p><p><font size="2">How does stream perform for you in the two different situations? </font></p><p><font size="2">Mirdo.</font></p><hr></blockquote><font size="2">Hi there Mirdo.  There are a couple things that I think cause the disparity (keep in mind that this is purely my opinion).  First is the additional debuffs and buffs that you'll see in a raid setting.  Next, I truly think that the same level mobs in KoS are <b>much</b> more difficult than in DoF.  Not having raided any of the t7 stuff yet, I cannot imagine how a raid force of low 60's can possibly make it through an encounter without running out of power before the mob is even close to death.  The dps simply isn't there.  That is why I still think that we need a 15% to 20% increase.Stream of Arrows?  I have stopped using it altogether in group play.  The mobs I've been fighting usually parry at least half of the arrows, most of the time much more than that.  I've found that it's more effecient to melee for that 30 seconds.  In a raid setting, it's a bit different, at least on DoF mobs.  It's minimal power usage, along with the perceived lessened parry ability of these mobs still allows me to maintain moderate dps while conserving power.I'm not sure how valid my findings are, since I am comparing two different tiers.  But that doesn't change the fact that the same level mobs from the different expansion areas feel completely different.  The parry rate is obscene, and inconsistent.  My arrows should have AT LEAST as much chance of hitting as my sword/sabre/swiftblade/leafblade/ or whatever.  As things are now, that certainly does not seem to be the case.</font></span></div>

[Teksun]

FWIW, I have noticed that poisons will go off more than once using Stream. At least the number is going down in my usage count. I still don't use it that often, it just doesn't seem to be worth the arrows. I haven't NOTICED proc's going off more than once, but that doesn't mean they aren't. With Storm and pounce you can still put poison on more than one mob (i've seen multiple Icons in the spell area). I can still get up to 400 DPS in group on occasion, but it usually hovers between 150 and 250 (as low as 75 against high orange heroic)Raid DPS isn't horrible. I have actually been able to do higher DPS on some raids, up to 450 (Lockjaw). But, with the newly tweaked raid mobs, we are wiping on raids that were NO trouble before the revamp (again - Lockjaw)<div></div>

[Steezi]

<div></div><p>Stream of Arrows isnt a CA... its kinda strange that way. Its an ability that casts Stream Shot, (a CA) every 1.5 seconds... therefore the procs have a chance to hit on every arrow fired.</p><p>Since procs were taken off 2nd and 3rd attacks, and not the 2nd and 3rd arrows fired, all (both) of our ae's have a chance to proc on every arrow. Its simply that our chance to proc has been completely destroyed, so its hard to notice.</p><p>Things like triple arrow and precision shot no longer proc on the 2nd and 3rd arrows however....</p>

[Who]

<div></div><div><div>Ok, this is my first post. I read forums alot ever since I hit lvl 45ish since I like to keep up with stuff. I am currently a lvl 65 ranger on Lucan D'Lere in a fun raid guild. I have a mix of fabled t6 , legendary crafted and non-crafted t6/7 , and some nice lil t7 treasured as my current gear. All my skills are master 1 or Adept 3 for t6, t7 are adept 1 and master 1 of the Snipe upgrade. My self buffed stats are 306 str, 371 agil, 170 stam and 30 int (not too worried about proc damage atm :smileysad<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> around 4500 health/4200 power in Off Stance. Im using imbued ironwood, foreman's shank and cobalt spatha ( silly pizzy 1 went grey ) and Sting of Virulence DoT poison. I've played for 104d and created char on March 14 2005. Ok, just wanted to give an overview of my char before I comment on how I feel about my ranger.</div><div> </div><div>I love my ranger and have always had fun playing her. Before DoF I solo'd pretty much to 50, was in small guild then and didnt start raiding until I was 49/50. Then DoF came out and bam! we started to kick some butt ..... too much tho? Yes, we were overpowered , we could solo 55^^^+ nameds with little difficulty , we could almost always parse in top 4 at raids without dieing in the process , we beat most classess in duels (but then again so could summoners - not an attack, just stating what I know from grouping/raiding with them alot). We needed our DPS lowered some to bring us in line with other T1 classess.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>1. Can you still fill the DPS role adequately in groups?</div><div> </div><div>   Honestly? I don't think so I have been parsing since KoS was released and for me things look like this.....I solo at around 250-300 dps , in groups I average 250-450 dps (can get maybe 700dps max if I use sniper and blow all my ranged/melee CA's , which I do alot since I have only pulled aggro one time since KoS release lol) I have been xp'ing of lvl 68^^^'s last few days so I'll just mention how others are parsing Iv'e been grouping with (again not an attack on any other classes, just saying what I've seen)....Necros lvl 64/65 parsing about 500-800 on average,  Wizards lvl 63/64 parsing 500-800 avg, assassin 64 400-800 , monk 61 300-500 , alot of times zerkers and wardens have parsed higher then me heh....you get the idea. So again....no, we arent fullfilling our role in grps imo.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>2. What skills, if any, were "broken" in the patch?</div><div> </div><div>   I don't notice anything "broken" per se, but they chnaged alot of stuff it seems...stun on Cheap Shot seems off, power use/casting times on CA's are different , Trap doesnt work the same , lost the use of our last mobile ranged CA other then the 2 AE's</div><div> </div><div>3. Are you able to solo effectively?</div><div> </div><div>  Ya I guess....can take groups of yellow 2-3 down arrows or single ^ blues w/o much effort (unless I get an add) orange solo no arrows are usually ok if all CA's and trap up - which includes sniper so thats every 15 mins...I hope the parry issue gets fixed and helps solo some.</div><div> </div><div>4. If applicable: do you bring enough to the raid table to be a worthwhile contributor?</div><div> </div><div>   Well, I'm the only active ranger left in guild now so I make good comic relief! Seriously though I won't be much use at raids except maybe on the ranged fights, but if a mage is available and I were raid leader I know I would not pick a ranger instead.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Anyway, I feel useless now...I'm lucky enough to have alot of friends in guild to help me lvl but I just get depressed parsing in groups. I could care less If I'm top [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] DPS on the parser, but I want to feel like Im doing what my class is supposed to do....I don't want pity groups. I want to feel needed for groups and raids again, I want to feel like a ranger again.......</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Tonni</div><div>65 Ranger of Lucan D'Lere</div><div> </div></div>