How can a game mechanic that is supposably broken be left out of 19 patches!!

[Ayo]

<div></div><div></div>I think everyone in this forum would of understood some kind of change to procs if IT WOULDN"T OF TAKEN OVER A YEAR TO FIX..   Here you go you are a very powerfull part of Raids, Groups etc..... wait.... just kidding you now are not very powerfull..we really don't need you anymore..  sorry it took so long to get this problem we had a major emergency on creating new low level armor... and giving mages your evac!!! Remember all that fun you level 60 rangers had and all that time you invested into this powerfull toon..   Well it was all a waist have fun trying to get to 70 without a group!!! Maybe we can take off the timer on your evac since you are going to use it in every fight you get in solo from now on..   See you at LU21 where everyone gets one spell the same robe..... !!!! <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ayode on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:49 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ayode on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:49 AM</span></p>

[Gailstryd]

<div></div>Try 19 patches broham, the mechanic for proc's hasn't been changed since day one at least till LU20.  So this "bug" this "exploit" that rangers and everyone else has been using has been in game for 19 LU patches, 2 adventure packs, and nearly 2 expansions [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE is sharp they caught this "bug" fast didn't they.  "Bug" my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gailstryder wrote:<div></div>Try 19 patches broham, the mechanic for proc's hasn't been changed since day one at least till LU20.  So this "bug" this "exploit" that rangers and everyone else has been using has been in game for 19 LU patches, 2 adventure packs, and nearly 2 expansions [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE is sharp they caught this "bug" fast didn't they.  "Bug" my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<hr></blockquote><p>It's not so much that they labled it a bug as anything that is undesireable may be called a bug in software.  That does not make me as mad as saying rangers that used high delay bows were exploiters.  This makes me angry to hear that because we parse...</p><p>I totally agree that if it was a bug it should have squashed quickly.</p>

[Bithnar]

<div>Whats worse is that they blame us for using the long delay weapon that THEY gave us!!!</div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><p>I would love to find the post I remember reading a post a long time ago by a dev defending the high delay proc issue.  If my memory serves me right they wanted to get away from the EQ1 days of fast weops=more procs 4tehwin thinking.  EQ1 meles were reduced to HAVING to use fast DW weops to hold agro because of hate procs.</p><p>I do not think it is a bug but rather a design flaw.  They wanted it to work that way without thinking things through.</p>

[MagicWand]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gailstryder wrote:<div></div>Try 19 patches broham, the mechanic for proc's hasn't been changed since day one at least till LU20.  So this "bug" this "exploit" that rangers and everyone else has been using has been in game for 19 LU patches, 2 adventure packs, and nearly 2 expansions [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE is sharp they caught this "bug" fast didn't they.  "Bug" my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<hr></blockquote><p>Well, it became a major problem that the Devs could not continue to ignore with the addition of AA to the game.  Something that made rangers the best DPS in the game bar none, became so out of control that something needed to be done.   I really hope you guys must understand this fix or nerf was really needed, or the Devs would of been forced to balance the game around the DPS of just one class.</p><p>Another thing don't you guys get bothered by all the FOTM/jonhy come lately rangers?  All those people with alt rangers just over taking the raiding scene.  Where if a raiding guild is laughed  at and made fun of if they have 4 or more rangers just to make some encounters almost trivial.  I know if my class became the new "ranger" I would not be happy what so ever.  Nothing annoys me more then these FOTM players just playing a class just because its over powered.  And with the unlocked encounters and Ebay, we all know how easy it is to get a max "FOTM" class in a raiding guild.</p><p>I would think this nerf would help the REAL rangers who play the class because of the love of the class and not because it blew away the other Tier 1 DPS out the water.  You remember those loudy assassins, wizards and warlocks who on average score 300-500+ less DPS then  you guys.</p>

[MagicWand]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div><p>I would love to find the post I remember reading a post a long time ago by a dev defending the high delay proc issue.  If my memory serves me right they wanted to get away from the EQ1 days of fast weops=more procs 4tehwin thinking.  EQ1 meles were reduced to HAVING to use fast DW weops to hold agro because of hate procs.</p><p>I do not think it is a bug but rather a design flaw.  They wanted it to work that way without thinking things through.</p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Well EQ1 didnt have Combat Arts so they had to work with delay on weapons. </p>

[Bayler_x]

<span><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<div></div><p>Well, it became a major problem that the Devs could not continue to ignore with the addition of AA to the game.  Something that made rangers the best DPS in the game bar none, became so out of control that something needed to be done.   I really hope you guys must understand this fix or nerf was really needed, or the Devs would of been forced to balance the game around the DPS of just one class.</p><p>Another thing don't you guys get bothered by all the FOTM/jonhy come lately rangers?  All those people with alt rangers just over taking the raiding scene.  Where if a raiding guild is laughed  at and made fun of if they have 4 or more rangers just to make some encounters almost trivial.  I know if my class became the new "ranger" I would not be happy what so ever.  Nothing annoys me more then these FOTM players just playing a class just because its over powered.  And with the unlocked encounters and Ebay, we all know how easy it is to get a max "FOTM" class in a raiding guild.</p><p>I would think this nerf would help the REAL rangers who play the class because of the love of the class and not because it blew away the other Tier 1 DPS out the water.  You remember those loudy assassins, wizards and warlocks who on average score 300-500+ less DPS then  you guys.</p><hr></blockquote>Sure, it became a major problem when they introduced AAs.  But the obvious solution there is to change the AAs.  Still, it is a poorly designed mechanic that ties the devs' hands somewhat when trying to balance spells, weapons, and poisons.  I agree that sooner or later, the mechanics needed to change.However, fundemental mechanics changes 1 week before release, being tested for only the top 0.1% of content is *not* a good plan.If they want to change this mechanic, they should.  Absolutely.  But they should do it slowly, test it thoroughly, and be prepared to tweek other aspects of the class who has been tuned around making use of these mechanics.  (And other classes, for that matter.)Really, this change should necessitate a whole new "combat update."</span><div></div>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gailstryder wrote:<div></div>Try 19 patches broham, the mechanic for proc's hasn't been changed since day one at least till LU20.  So this "bug" this "exploit" that rangers and everyone else has been using has been in game for 19 LU patches, 2 adventure packs, and nearly 2 expansions [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE is sharp they caught this "bug" fast didn't they.  "Bug" my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<hr></blockquote><p>Well, it became a major problem that the Devs could not continue to ignore with the addition of AA to the game.  Something that made rangers the best DPS in the game bar none, became so out of control that something needed to be done.   I really hope you guys must understand this fix or nerf was really needed, or the Devs would of been forced to balance the game around the DPS of just one class.</p><p><strong>Another thing don't you guys get bothered by all the FOTM/jonhy come lately rangers?</strong>  All those people with alt rangers just over taking the raiding scene.  Where if a raiding guild is laughed  at and made fun of if they have 4 or more rangers just to make some encounters almost trivial.  I know if my class became the new "ranger" I would not be happy what so ever.  Nothing annoys me more then these FOTM players just playing a class just because its over powered.  And with the unlocked encounters and Ebay, we all know how easy it is to get a max "FOTM" class in a raiding guild.</p><p>I would think this nerf would help the REAL rangers who play the class because of the love of the class and not because it blew away the other Tier 1 DPS out the water.  You remember those loudy assassins, wizards and warlocks who on average score 300-500+ less DPS then  you guys.</p><hr></blockquote>Check down our forum for some of our older threads, such as "culling our herd" and you will find that alot of "old school" rangers weren't particullarly happy being the "popular" class.  We are always willing to help our fellow rangers, though, no matter what their toon's 'born-on' date

[MagicWand]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bayler_xev wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<div></div><p>Well, it became a major problem that the Devs could not continue to ignore with the addition of AA to the game.  Something that made rangers the best DPS in the game bar none, became so out of control that something needed to be done.   I really hope you guys must understand this fix or nerf was really needed, or the Devs would of been forced to balance the game around the DPS of just one class.</p><p>Another thing don't you guys get bothered by all the FOTM/jonhy come lately rangers?  All those people with alt rangers just over taking the raiding scene.  Where if a raiding guild is laughed  at and made fun of if they have 4 or more rangers just to make some encounters almost trivial.  I know if my class became the new "ranger" I would not be happy what so ever.  Nothing annoys me more then these FOTM players just playing a class just because its over powered.  And with the unlocked encounters and Ebay, we all know how easy it is to get a max "FOTM" class in a raiding guild.</p><p>I would think this nerf would help the REAL rangers who play the class because of the love of the class and not because it blew away the other Tier 1 DPS out the water.  You remember those loudy assassins, wizards and warlocks who on average score 300-500+ less DPS then  you guys.</p><hr></blockquote>Sure, it became a major problem when they introduced AAs.  But the obvious solution there is to change the AAs.  Still, it is a poorly designed mechanic that ties the devs' hands somewhat when trying to balance spells, weapons, and poisons.  I agree that sooner or later, the mechanics needed to change.However, fundemental mechanics changes 1 week before release, being tested for only the top 0.1% of content is *not* a good plan.If they want to change this mechanic, they should.  Absolutely.  But they should do it slowly, test it thoroughly, and be prepared to tweek other aspects of the class who has been tuned around making use of these mechanics.  (And other classes, for that matter.)Really, this change should necessitate a whole new "combat update."</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Let's forget about AAs.  Lets look at the state of the ranger class now.  You didn't find it silly that every other person had a ranger Alt just because they were way over powered?  The ranger became a joke class on our server.   A newly powered 60th level twink ranger didn't need fable gear to be top DPS on any raiding guild.   All he needed was his trusty imbued Ironwood LONG BOW, with some Legendry poison and he blew away everyone else on DPS. </p><p>If  you didn't see this as a problem with all the FOTM rangers coming out of the wood work then you a really aren't a true ranger who plays the class because he loves the ranger not because he had l33t DPS.</p>

[Fennir]

Is it so hard to consider ourselves lucky that we got to benefit from what was obviously a broken mechanic for so long?I'd seen this coming a long time ago and I honestly expected it to hit us much sooner than it did. I enjoyed my 6-7 months of overpowered play.  Is it sad that it's over?  Sure, but on the bright side, it will be a lot easier for the devs to balance damage tiers without having to work around a broken mechanism at every turn.  Every time they try to add something cool to the game (like a new proc or new AA that uses a proc) we would get that much stronger than everyone else.  That is not conducive to a balanced game.Blackguard said three things yesterday, all of which I believe to be true:1.  Rangers are not supposed to be #1 DPS.  This does not mean we are not supposed to be T1 damage.  It means we should not be the best all the time.2.  The devs (or at least some of them) were not aware of how much rangers relied on procs to maintain their damage tier.3.  We are meant to be T1 and will be fixed to that if the proc change hits us too hard.As for myself, I will continue to try and communicate how I feel my class can be bettered without being a little whiny baby about it.  Hopefully others can do the same.<div></div>

[Ayo]

I see your point about to many rangers but wouldn't you like your class "true ranger or not" to be usefull???<div></div>

[cyberlettu]

<div></div><div>Hi I am new to all this ranger mullarky [not here for flavour of the month] could I ask what exactly is being changed? The only thing I have seen is the change so that a weapon will only get one proc per combat art used rather than the amount of attacks within the art, which tbh sounds a fair enough fix to me.</div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:Is it so hard to consider ourselves lucky that we got to benefit from what was obviously a broken mechanic for so long?I'd seen this coming a long time ago and I honestly expected it to hit us much sooner than it did. I enjoyed my 6-7 months of overpowered play.  Is it sad that it's over?  Sure, but on the bright side, it will be a lot easier for the devs to balance damage tiers without having to work around a broken mechanism at every turn.  Every time they try to add something cool to the game (like a new proc or new AA that uses a proc) we would get that much stronger than everyone else.  That is not conducive to a balanced game.Blackguard said three things yesterday, all of which I believe to be true:1.  Rangers are not supposed to be #1 DPS.  This does not mean we are not supposed to be T1 damage.  It means we should not be the best all the time.2.  The devs (or at least some of them) were not aware of how much rangers relied on procs to maintain their damage tier.3.  We are meant to be T1 and will be fixed to that if the proc change hits us too hard.As for myself, I will continue to try and communicate how I feel my class can be bettered without being a little whiny baby about it.  Hopefully others can do the same.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Not to be 'whiny' but wouldn't it be easier to change something involved in the formula say......I don't know.....THE BOW DELAY!   Gee maybe if I lowered the bow delays it MIGHT affect the proc rate.  Oh no that would be too easy better to make two proc formula's one for CA (Where the root of the problems stem from (Offensive stance, SoA) and keep the one for autoattack.  What's the reason for even keeping the formula if it was broke.  Oh that's right because it works when you don't unbalance it with new barely tested data. </p><p>    How many of you took math with formulas?   How easy was it to unbalance a formula?  If you were to add new data to a perfectly working formula and it all of a sudden became unbalanced what would you do?  You'd remove the new data and check where the formula became unbalanced. Not point to the formula and say it was obviously broke the whole time. </p><p>   I'm not saying anything should or shouldn't have been done.  That's not my say. The way this was worded by the community managers was badly done is my problem. To point their finger at the players and say it's their fault the formula is unbalanced is wrong.  Last time I looked I haven't even seen a snippet of coding beyond the proc formula.  They see a problem with their coding fine take responsibility and fix it.  I have no problem with that good or bad. I just don't like that they lay the blame on us like we had any say about this.  I feel they took the easy way out on this because this will affect more then just us.  Rangers are just a perfect scape goat for a change people are going to hate.  That's my opinion after seeing too much politics in my life.</p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor </p>

[Fennir]

That attitude just goes absolutely nowhere.  The devs aren't changing the proc formula to punish rangers, nor did they say it's "our fault."  They actually acknowledged that it was "their fault."  Being the ones who wrote the code and all. Being [Removed for Content] off about the fact that they're fixing procs isn't going to help you, rangers, or the game, nor will it turn back the clock or prevent it from happening.It's happening.  Now is the time to move on and deal with it both by modifying our playstyle and by helping the devs figure out how to make sure we're T1 DPS.  Is that too much to ask?<div></div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:That attitude just goes absolutely nowhere.  The devs aren't changing the proc formula to punish rangers, nor did they say it's "our fault."  They actually acknowledged that it was "their fault."  Being the ones who wrote the code and all. Being [Removed for Content] off about the fact that they're fixing procs isn't going to help you, rangers, or the game, nor will it turn back the clock or prevent it from happening.It's happening.  Now is the time to move on and deal with it both by modifying our playstyle and by helping the devs figure out how to make sure we're T1 DPS.  Is that too much to ask?<div></div><hr></blockquote>No where in there did I say I was upset over the proc changes themselves.  How it was handled community wise I have the right to be after basically being told that I've been cheating for over a year.  I'm wait and see on the changes just like every other change.  I'm not 'wait and see' on what's been basically a thinly veiled poke.  You want to be happy about this by all means do so.  Telling others to not feel insulted well that's not anyone's place.<p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:58 AM</span></p>

[Fennir]

Nowhere am I telling anyone how to feel.  I'm simply suggesting a course of action for those with a brain to take.  If someone wants to quit, reroll, be [Removed for Content] off, whine, or sit in a corner feeling sorry for themselves, I'm not going to stop them.I reserve the right to be completely boggled by that reaction, just like you reserve the right to feel personally slighted by the actions of people who make and modify computer games for a living.<div></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<div></div><p>I know if my class became the new "ranger" I would not be happy what so ever.  Nothing annoys me more then these FOTM players just playing a class just because its over powered. </p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, plenty of things annoy me more than that, but... *cough* summoners, anyone?</p><p>I don't think it's coincidence that our server has seen an explosion of conjurors and necros in the last few months.</p><p>After the SOE Nerf Bat 4000XL Turbo kneecaps teh rangers, where you think those crosshairs are gonna fall next? Guardians? Check. Templars? Check. Coercers? Check, got 'em good. Furies? Hmmmm....</p><p>Nananananaaaa...BEEEEP! TARGET ACQUIRED!!  <conjuror cringes in fear, runs for cover></p>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:Blackguard said three things yesterday, all of which I believe to be true:1.  Rangers are not supposed to be #1 DPS.  This does not mean we are not supposed to be T1 damage.  It means we should not be the best all the time.2.  The devs (or at least some of them) were not aware of how much rangers relied on procs to maintain their damage tier.3.  We are meant to be T1 and will be fixed to that if the proc change hits us too hard.As for myself, I will continue to try and communicate how I feel my class can be bettered without being a little whiny baby about it.  Hopefully others can do the same.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I know I can... just permit me some sardonic humor as a coping mechanism, k? I try to play morale-booster most of the time, but you're gonna start seeing a lot more sarcastic posts (like 'Dev caught with internal software tool') as I try to laugh at the whole situation to keep from tearing my hair out and cancelling my subscription. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Fennir]

nothing wrong with good humorbesides if we're gonna take it in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] next week we'll need all the humor we can get<div></div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><div>Yep, I can feel slighted by someone who I've done excately nothing to taking a shot across the nose.  Not everything they do is perfect or are they stupid.  They have to be pretty smart men to make it where they're at.  Hence why I boggle over that response.  I've seen good CS people in my line of work and sure they'd like to say something like was said but never would.  I mean in what line of CS work would you straight out blame the customer to their face?</div><div> </div><div>Edit:  I'm not mad at you personally or anything please don't take it as such.  I'm just trying to discuss a point.  That and maybe I hate the word 'whiny' ..yep definietly that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Falcon</div><div>60 Ranger</div><div>Kithicor</div><p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:23 AM</span></p>

[Jayad]

<div>lol.  Yes, let's be full of hope that they'll fix us after the nerf, because SOE has such a *great* track record for prompt responses to problems!  I'm sure they consider 3 months later pretty responsive.  Many classes (guardians for example) are still completely broken since their nerf, and they're among the most patient and helpful groups out there.  They got totally ignored.  Hmmm I wonder what our chances are....</div>

[meest]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:nothing wrong with good humorbesides if we're gonna take it in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] next week we'll need all the humor we can get<div></div><hr></blockquote>Want to hear the Ranger Bind here often joke then?? Rofl i swear every idiot that says "I have a ranger joke" thinks that its the first time anyone's heard it....</span><div></div>

[Bithnar]

<div></div>nah I've heard "res the ranga after the fight it will save on mana" WAAAAAAAYYYYY! more than the bind joke :smileyvery-happy:

[Bayler_x]

<span><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<blockquote><hr>Bayler_xev wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<p>Well, it became a major problem that the Devs could not continue to ignore with the addition of AA to the game.  Something that made rangers the best DPS in the game bar none, became so out of control that something needed to be done.   I really hope you guys must understand this fix or nerf was really needed, or the Devs would of been forced to balance the game around the DPS of just one class.</p><p>Another thing don't you guys get bothered by all the FOTM/jonhy come lately rangers?  All those people with alt rangers just over taking the raiding scene.  Where if a raiding guild is laughed  at and made fun of if they have 4 or more rangers just to make some encounters almost trivial.  I know if my class became the new "ranger" I would not be happy what so ever.  Nothing annoys me more then these FOTM players just playing a class just because its over powered.  And with the unlocked encounters and Ebay, we all know how easy it is to get a max "FOTM" class in a raiding guild.</p><p>I would think this nerf would help the REAL rangers who play the class because of the love of the class and not because it blew away the other Tier 1 DPS out the water.  You remember those loudy assassins, wizards and warlocks who on average score 300-500+ less DPS then  you guys.</p><hr></blockquote>Sure, it became a major problem when they introduced AAs.  But the obvious solution there is to change the AAs.  Still, it is a poorly designed mechanic that ties the devs' hands somewhat when trying to balance spells, weapons, and poisons.  I agree that sooner or later, the mechanics needed to change.However, fundemental mechanics changes 1 week before release, being tested for only the top 0.1% of content is *not* a good plan.If they want to change this mechanic, they should.  Absolutely.  But they should do it slowly, test it thoroughly, and be prepared to tweek other aspects of the class who has been tuned around making use of these mechanics.  (And other classes, for that matter.)Really, this change should necessitate a whole new "combat update."</span><hr></blockquote><p>Let's forget about AAs.  Lets look at the state of the ranger class now.  You didn't find it silly that every other person had a ranger Alt just because they were way over powered?  The ranger became a joke class on our server.   A newly powered 60th level twink ranger didn't need fable gear to be top DPS on any raiding guild.   All he needed was his trusty imbued Ironwood LONG BOW, with some Legendry poison and he blew away everyone else on DPS. </p><p>If  you didn't see this as a problem with all the FOTM rangers coming out of the wood work then you a really aren't a true ranger who plays the class because he loves the ranger not because he had l33t DPS.</p><hr></blockquote>::scratches his head::How did you get to "</span><span>you a really aren't a true ranger who plays the class because he loves the ranger" from "</span><span><span>But they should do it slowly, test it thoroughly, and be prepared to tweek other aspects of the class who has been tuned around making use of these mechanics."?</span></span><div></div>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MagicWand wrote:<div></div><p>I would think this nerf would help the REAL rangers who play the class because of the love of the class and not because it blew away the other Tier 1 DPS out the water. </p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>How the hell would you know what would help "REAL Rangers".  You're nothing more than a johnny come lately caster trolling the Ranger forums.</p><p>You wouln't know a "Real Ranger" if he shoved an arrow up your butt sideways.</p>

[TaleraRis]

The same way charm was left "broken" for 5 years in EQ for enchanters then finally "fixed".We haven't even seen the affects of this yet. Beta is one thing, but things tend to change between testing time and when things go to live.  If reports are true, then it's going to be a serious setback. So we gather data and we make our point, maturely and constructively. The devs have shown in the past that they'll listen if problems are brought to their attention that are truly problems that need addressing. So if this turns out to be a large problem for us, then we can take our case to them. All this doom and gloom on the boards here is doing is making it very uncomfortable to be here for many of us who enjoyed the open and engaging atmosphere. I'll be glad when all this fuss is over, for better or worse, and we stop looking so much like other boards known for their end of the world threads.<div></div>