Does my math make sense ?

[Sirlutt]

I was mulling over the changes and came up with this :<span>The real problem here is how procs are calculated.  Its based of weapon speed and the rangers happen to be the only class who rely on a 7.0 speed weapon to do their DPS.  A ranger in melee procs no more or no less than any other class using melee weapons.  We are forced to use a 7.0 speed bow, and use poisons and our offensive proc.  Procs are "normalised" for a .30 speed weapon.  So in effect the 7.0 of our bow gives us over twice as much chance to proc as someone using a 3.0 speed weapon, and up to 3 or more times someone using say a 1.2 speed weapon (actually its 5.8 times)for instance - if its 5% for a proc to go off on our bow, its actually 7/3 * 5% = 11.6% for our bow to proc.  Our poisons are usually 10%, so with our 7.0 bow its 23%, and our offensive proc is 30% which turns out to be a massive 70% proc rate.  Clearly over powered considering you let loose triple shot and each shot has a 11.6% chance to proc gleaming strike, a 23% chance to proc a poison and a 70% chance to proc our offensive stance.i dont think you will find many rangers who would disagree this is unfair and needs to be addressed.under the new changes however, on a triple shot you will have 1 chance to proc on the first hit.  So we lose 2 lots of 11.6 / 23 and 70 right up.. but lets ignore that becuase thats a fair change.. no reason a 3 hit CA should  have a chance to hit 3 times.  Lets look at the change to using CA cast times instead of weapon speed.  Now our casting time is 1.5 for triple shot i think, so its like using a 1.5 melee weapon.  Our gleaming strike is now a 2.5% chance.. our poisons are 5% and out offensive stance is 15% .. lets compare those numbers   11.6 vs 2.5 - 78% reduction ..... 23 vs 5 - 78% reduction and 70 vs 15 - 78% reduction..so when you distill it down.. basically the difference between the casting time of the CA, and the bow weapon speed (7.0) is the reduction in DPS that rangers will see... its significant.. and this is not including the procs of multiple attacks.  Rangers have pretty much had their DPs reduced about 60-80% ... we dont do 60-80% more DPS across the board than the other T1 classes.The bottom line is the weapon speed is the problem and how procs are calculated... thats what needs to be looked at, and not by slashing it by 78%</span><hr size="2" width="100%">Is my logic flawed?.. its simplified i know.. but is it flawed?And one other question..if an attack currently procs our offensive proc.. can that offensive proc trigger a poison ? (outside of that CA triggering a poison) .. what i am getting at is can a proc trigger a poison ?<span></span><div></div>

[Bayler_x]

Certainly on the right track, but there are some tweeks necessary.You might want to look at my post at the link below.  I built a spreadsheet to model ranger damage before and after the proc mechanics change that goes into a little more depth.  My numbers predict a 45% loss in our damage output; but I'd encourage you to download the spreadsheet and play with it.<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=48150">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=48150</a>As for what you wrote:  Our day to day poisons have a nominal proc rate of 25%.  So that's 58% from a longbow, or 12.5% from a new-style 1.5 cast-time CA.My other criticism with your estimation is the handling of the 78% figure.  Assume  you're right and our proc damage is being reduced by 78%.  That doesn't mean that our DPS as a whole is being reduced by that much.  If you assume that 50% of ranger damage comes from procs, then our overall reduction would be 50% * 78% = 39.5%.However, I'm not sure your model handles the procs-from-procs situation.  Our offensive stance gives us a "quick shot" proc, but that quick shot can proc poison and soforth too.  So by reducing the odds of that quick shot, they're also *greatly* reducing the odds of the subsequent poison procs.It's all pretty complicated.  =/<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=48150"></a><div></div>

[Korpo]

Agree with Shader, the math all looks right (though a typo you said .30s delay instead of 3.0s) at a quick glance, but you're assuming procs = dps. You have to take your 78% off the damage done by procs (instead of total dps) to calculate new dps.Using the 30-40% range: If you assume a ranger on a raid does 1200 dps (I've seen it done many times) currently, that ranger will now do 720-840 dps. If you assume a ranger on a raid does 1400 dps (Again, seen it done) currently, that ranger will now do 840-980 dps.<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

you are both right.. procs doesnt = all our DPS .. but its 60% of it (40% being poison, 20% being other procs) .. so to reduce that 60% by 80% will be a 50% reduction in the amount of damage we do.parsing myself as a 58 ranger in roost with a 58 wizzy he was doing 450 i was doing about 650 .. i'm going to be hard pressed to keep up now i think.<div></div>

[Korpo]

Working with your numbers:650 dps * 60% = 390 dps from procs260 dps from other stuff390 * 20% =  78 post-nerf dps from procs338 dps total (post-nerf)Looks bleak, but you have to admit these are fairly worst-case numbers. If we go a little bit the other way, that procs = 50% of ranger dps (more like what I get), then you end up with 390 dps (post nerf). If your proc damage is 45% of total, you're now at 416 dps, and spitting distance from that wizard.You also have to consider that using high DD / low DOT poison gives more damage total assuming procs get overwritten right away (as they do now), which is why everyone uses it. Switching to low DD / high DOT gives more damage per proc assuming that the DOT gets to tick longer, as it will when poison doesn't proc as often. Fewer procs, but more damage per proc. Offsets things a little more on the positive side. In the end though, I'll say "dunno" and we'll see how it shakes out.<div></div>

[AfflictedOne]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bayler_xev wrote: Our offensive stance gives us a "quick shot" proc, but that quick shot can proc poison and soforth too.  So by reducing the odds of that quick shot, they're also *greatly* reducing the odds of the subsequent poison procs.It's all pretty complicated.  =/<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=48150" target="_blank"></a><div></div><hr></blockquote>Well I've not tested it.  But I doubt that quick shot will proc anything after these changes.  It has no cast time so nothing to base the proc off of.</span><div></div>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><p>I keep looking at the numbers and all that I see are from +60 group and raid parses</p><p>What I really want to see are a long set of parses from a lower level ranger.  It took me forever to level from predator to upper level ranger, because no one wanted to group with an unguilded [Removed for Content].  I just want to see if my ranger brethren will be facing this again.</p><p>are there any level 20-50 rangers on beta?   and if there are.... can you solo anything above a blue arrow down mob?</p>

[Sirlutt]

not lower level.. but lvl 59.. fighting 58/59 ^^^ Giants tonight.For the entire fight :Arts and Spells:Triple Arrow: 28102 / used 33 times avr  851.58declining periodic poison: 209192 / used 319 times avr  655.77Divine Strike: 16992 / used 147 times avr  115.59Quick Shot: 125148 / used 301 times avr  415.77Gleaming Strike: 31647 / used 102 times avr  310.26Fatal Reminder: 2305 / used 19 times avr  121.32Shocking Thrust: 1430 / used 4 times avr  357.5Arrow Rip: 1246 / used 3 times avr  415.33Debilitating Arrow: 16437 / used 27 times avr  608.78Precise Shot: 26614 / used 56 times avr  475.25Storm of Arrows: 8593 / used 2 times avr  4296.5Miracle Arrow: 10661 / used 24 times avr  444.21Snaring Shot: 13536 / used 60 times avr  225.6Confusion Arrow: 12859 / used 33 times avr  389.67Culling the Weak: 9826 / used 10 times avr  982.6Lunging Blade: 2183 / used 21 times avr  103.95Sniper Shot: 6242 / used 1 times avr  6242Sanguine Feedback: 157 / used 1 times avr  157Total Art and Spell Damage: 523170Overal Damage: 596413Overal Damage per second:  460.9And a couple of random fights i pulled out.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Battle  6 -  23 SecondsMelee Damage:  2091Melee Damage Per Second:  90.9Total Weapon Swing Count:  4Avr Weapon Delay:  5.75Total Melee Hits (inc arts):  20Riptose Count:  0Parry Count:  0Arts and Spells:Triple Arrow: 1035 / used 1 times avr  1035declining periodic poison: 7680 / used 8 times avr  960Quick Shot: 3099 / used 7 times avr  442.71Precise Shot: 537 / used 1 times avr  537Divine Strike: 303 / used 3 times avr  101Debilitating Arrow: 595 / used 1 times avr  595Gleaming Strike: 862 / used 3 times avr  287.33Snaring Shot: 217 / used 1 times avr  217Miracle Arrow: 464 / used 1 times avr  464Confusion Arrow: 407 / used 1 times avr  407Total Art and Spell Damage: 15199Overal Damage: 17290Overal Damage per second:  751.7--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Battle  7 -  81 SecondsMelee Damage:  3833Melee Damage Per Second:  47.3Total Weapon Swing Count:  13Avr Weapon Delay:  6.230Total Melee Hits (inc arts):  55Riptose Count:  0Parry Count:  0Arts and Spells:Precise Shot: 1536 / used 3 times avr  512Quick Shot: 6760 / used 17 times avr  397.65Snaring Shot: 1384 / used 6 times avr  230.67declining periodic poison: 11328 / used 22 times avr  514.91Gleaming Strike: 2158 / used 8 times avr  269.75Divine Strike: 1163 / used 10 times avr  116.3Confusion Arrow: 1155 / used 3 times avr  385Fatal Reminder: 559 / used 5 times avr  111.8Lunging Blade: 304 / used 3 times avr  101.33Triple Arrow: 850 / used 1 times avr  850Debilitating Arrow: 590 / used 1 times avr  590Miracle Arrow: 439 / used 1 times avr  439Total Art and Spell Damage: 28226Overal Damage: 32059Overal Damage per second:  395.7--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Battle  8 -  6 SecondsMelee Damage:  0Melee Damage Per Second:  0Total Weapon Swing Count:  0Avr Weapon Delay:  InfinTotal Melee Hits (inc arts):  2Riptose Count:  0Parry Count:  0Arts and Spells:Sniper Shot: 6242 / used 1 times avr  6242declining periodic poison: 512 / used 1 times avr  512Quick Shot: 338 / used 1 times avr  338Gleaming Strike: 235 / used 1 times avr  235Total Art and Spell Damage: 7327Overal Damage: 7327Overal Damage per second:  1221.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Battle  11 -  45 SecondsMelee Damage:  1576Melee Damage Per Second:  35.0Total Weapon Swing Count:  5Avr Weapon Delay:  9Total Melee Hits (inc arts):  27Riptose Count:  0Parry Count:  0Arts and Spells:Precise Shot: 839 / used 2 times avr  419.5declining periodic poison: 6800 / used 11 times avr  618.18Quick Shot: 3718 / used 9 times avr  413.11Divine Strike: 457 / used 5 times avr  91.4Snaring Shot: 421 / used 2 times avr  210.5Gleaming Strike: 322 / used 1 times avr  322Culling the Weak: 944 / used 1 times avr  944Confusion Arrow: 385 / used 1 times avr  385Triple Arrow: 1053 / used 1 times avr  1053Lunging Blade: 165 / used 1 times avr  165Fatal Reminder: 160 / used 1 times avr  160Total Art and Spell Damage: 15264Overal Damage: 16840Overal Damage per second:  374.2--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Battle  13 -  26 SecondsMelee Damage:  1858Melee Damage Per Second:  71.4Total Weapon Swing Count:  5Avr Weapon Delay:  5.2Total Melee Hits (inc arts):  19Riptose Count:  0Parry Count:  0Arts and Spells:Triple Arrow: 904 / used 1 times avr  904declining periodic poison: 8120 / used 10 times avr  812Quick Shot: 2704 / used 6 times avr  450.67Divine Strike: 277 / used 3 times avr  92.33Precise Shot: 480 / used 1 times avr  480Snaring Shot: 269 / used 1 times avr  269Debilitating Arrow: 754 / used 1 times avr  754Gleaming Strike: 330 / used 1 times avr  330Culling the Weak: 1074 / used 1 times avr  1074Total Art and Spell Damage: 14912Overal Damage: 16770Overal Damage per second:  645--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------As you can see the longer the battles, the less my DPS was.in most cases though, poison alone was 40-60% of my DPS, with Quickshot being the 2nd usually about 20% .. when you nerf those were gonna be pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sorry.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<div>Sirlutt, good post.  This is what we we all see for DPS.  Yes there is a spike of 1221 <font color="#ffff66">[Bobo says: OMG Rangers parse over 1200 DPS they have to be nerfed]</font> but your average DPS is more like 641 and change.</div><div> </div><div>This is also my experience, and from the numbers I've seen posted by others, appear to be the norm.  I'm expecting LU20 to cut that by around 300.  We won't know for sure until it goes live, but based on the posts from those in beta, that's what it's looking like.</div>

[Sirlutt]

yep.. i am by no means uber, i am pretty normal.. not even fully legendary..looking at this i see 3 small changes that should be made.. reduce the proc % of our offensive stance to 20%, and make it not proc poison.. and lastly perhaps reduce the weapon speed of bows by 50% and reduce their auto attack damage by 60%...those 3 changes would lower our DPs down by about 30% which is all it needs.. sure we have time where we can do some uber DPs but its in short fights, with high timer arts and is very situational.. over all the average DPsi am pulling with a legendary poison is about 650.. reduce that to about 500 and we are fine.<div></div>