"Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be." Blackguard .

[Lord of the Arct]

<div></div>Seems the good days for us Rangers are gone <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47956#M47956<div></div><hr size="2" width="100%">We'll continue to work with procs until we're comfortable with how they function. To those crying doom and gloom for the Ranger class: Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be.If you want further clarification on the proc changes we've been making, especially the first one, read on.As you know, there are many weapons in game that proc extra damage when they land an attack in combat (for example, imbued crafted weapons). In order to ensure that no style of weapon was more likely to proc than any other, we base a weapon's chance to proc on its delay. In other words, a slower weapon has a higher chance to proc because it lands fewer attacks; a faster weapon has a lower chance to proc on each hit because it lands its attacks more often. This keeps dual-wield, one-handed, and two-handed weapons on par with each other in their chance to proc.Some buffs also provide a chance to proc extra damage on a successful attack. Because we even out the proc chance based on delay, such buffs work equally well regardless of weapon type.These buffs also have a chance to proc via combat arts. However, there is a bug on the live servers in that the proc chance for combat arts was also being calculated based on the delay of whatever weapon was equipped. Some players have been using this to their advantage by deliberately equipping slow weapons in order to give their fast-casting combat arts a better chance to proc.As of Live Update #20, combat arts will base their chance to trigger a proc on the casting time of the art itself. Weapon delay will no longer affect any combat art's chance to trigger a proc.Certain classes will feel the effects of this change more than others. Scouts (especially rangers) were more likely to benefit from this bug than other melee classes, which contributed to scout damage being higher overall than it should have been--especially in relation to mages.While no class likes to see a reduction in the damage it does, the alternative would be to not only increase the damage output of other classes to compensate, but also to proportionately increase the health pools of NPCs to account for this rise in player damage. The second option would involve a lot more changes and would be prone to introducing other imbalances into the game.While not doing anything about this bug would be preferable to some, we cannot ignore the progressively more significant effect it is having as the game evolves. Fixing this issue will help bring many of the classes back into their intended range of damage output as we discussed around the time of LU13 and the combat revamp.Keep in mind that if you play a melee class but don't rely on a slow weapon to generate extra procs, this fix should have little impact on your style of play.<font color="#999999">Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#999999"></font>

[klepp]

<div>yep now not only do we get to pay for our dps, but we get to be lower at it as well.   Fortunately i know alot of groups that prioritize having someone to disarm traps and someone with pathfinding.</div>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div></div>Edit: post was too long and too happy go lucky.Only point to make is that we need to fight for what this class should be, at least in terms of playability.<div></div><p>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:40 PM</span></p>

[Ayo]

THIS WOULD OF BEEN A NICE THING TO DO 6 MONTHS AGO.. The punishment to Rangers doesn't fit the crime--->   a.k.a SOE   So who is supposed to be the highest DPS in the game??? If there is one why is it such a problem that rangers are it.<div></div>

[MaddBomber]

<div>I thought there was a utility - > dps spectrum in the scout class, with the bards being more utility based, rouges being more middle line with a bit of tanking/taunting, and predators being all out dps?</div><div> </div><div>So shouldn't Rangers/Assasins be equal in DPS, slightly better than rouges/bards.</div><div> </div><div>The Mage archetype is a DPS archetype as well with it supposed to be utility - dps, Enchanter, Summoner, Wizard/Warlock.</div><div> </div><div>So Wizard's/Warlocks should be equal in dps to Ranger's/Assasins.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>I'm all fine with fixing a bug, but to say that Ranger's/Assasins/Wizards/Warlocks are not the most DPS class in game is just wrong.</div>

[TrigunVash]

<div>wizards/warlocks = dont have to pay every god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bit of cash they have for poisons and arrows, sit and click spells FTWwizard/warlocks = group buffs that add to groups overall dpsranger = pathfinding FTWranger = gimped</div>

[King Leor]

<div>WOW, SONY wins the award for having the longest lasting EQ2 bug of all time. The so called "proc" bug. Congradulations you idiots. It took 20 live updates to figure this one out. And remember, only haveing masturbation as your only means of excitement still makes you a virgin :0)   (next to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing around with rangers for fun of course) I like the part where we aren't supposed to be # 1 DPS and mages are, seeing as we have all those great utility spells they gave us.</div><div> </div><div>LeoricLevel 60 ranger</div>

[Tevilspek]

So our arts proc off the casting time of the CA, as well as '- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack'?Hmm... this means we'll only get one proc in the entire duration of Stream of Arrows?Anyone able to put some first hand clarification on these changes please?Well.. at least there's an upside to it. With Rangers no longer being Flavor of the Month, less will get rolled, esp on the PvP server, and the attention will fall on some other class to get nerfed... Great upside.Ah wells, chin up til we find out how the in-game effect of this is. Let it all play out..SoE have a "Vision" afterall, not much we can do about it now <span>:smileytongue:</span>

[Tal'shi]

<div>I play a Pally incidentally so never go with the Fotm but,</div><div> </div><div>A Ranger should NEVER out damage a Wizard you wear medium armor and have a tonne of Utility Wizards wear dressing gowns and have sub par utility, yet get to suffer the embarrasment of being out damaged by the rangers in their group... I love Wizards from a roleplay perspective but could never bring myself to play one due to their insufficient DPS tier considering their weakness...they are glass cannons they caant land a hit as high as a medium armoured scout.</div><div> </div><div>Thats why FoTm or in this case flavour of the year's are always a bad choice your gonna feel the pain sooner or later.</div><div> </div><div>If Rangers are being dps reduced to make Wizards feel better...well Im sure Wizard boards will be happy and after a year and a half of being the DPS under dog can finally retake their throne at the top of the DPS pile.</div>

[jagermiester]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Tal'shiar wrote:<div>I play a Pally incidentally so never go with the Fotm but,</div><div> </div><div>A Ranger should NEVER out damage a Wizard you wear medium armor and have a tonne of Utility Wizards wear dressing gowns and have sub par utility, yet get to suffer the embarrasment of being out damaged by the rangers in their group... I love Wizards from a roleplay perspective but could never bring myself to play one due to their insufficient DPS tier considering their weakness...they are glass cannons they caant land a hit as high as a medium armoured scout.</div><div> </div><div>Thats why FoTm or in this case flavour of the year's are always a bad choice your gonna feel the pain sooner or later.</div><div> </div><div>If Rangers are being dps reduced to make Wizards feel better...well Im sure Wizard boards will be happy and after a year and a half of being the DPS under dog can finally retake their throne at the top of the DPS pile.</div><p></p><hr><p> </p><p>Obviously you have never played a ranger. What utility? Disarm traps? Invis self? Track? Who the hell uses any of that as a basis for a "utility" class. Rangers were spose to be pure dps. So why is it an issue if we are? We are spose to be as good if not better than wizzys. AS for armor....dont make me laugh if you dont control your aggro my chain armor gets waxed what . 5 secs longer than cloth? The poisions we use cost a ton i easily spend over a plat on them for a good xp session. I use t6 legendary cause i like to be dps. You dont see wizzys spending a ton on reagent for their big nukes.....its give and take. And what SoE is doing is all take. I like when i watch a group mob go green orange dead. It makes me feel usefull. I played a ranger through the eq1 nerf that basically rendered the class a joke or just a ranged specialist at raids.  Please atleast know what you are talking about before you go spouting off about  DPS.</p><p> </p></blockquote></div>

[hieronym]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tal'shiar wrote:<div>I play a Pally incidentally so never go with the Fotm but,</div><div> </div><div>A Ranger should NEVER out damage a Wizard you wear medium armor and have a tonne of Utility</div><div> </div><div><strong>erm yeah our pathfinding rocks for a group, medium armour does diddly when a raid mob hits you for 10K</strong></div><div> </div><div>Wizards wear dressing gowns and have sub par utility</div><div> </div><div><strong>is it our fault they wear robes? buffing a groups strength, int and their other buffs is sub par utility??</strong></div><div> </div><div>yet get to suffer the embarrasment of being out damaged by the rangers in their group...</div><div> </div><div><strong>kinda depends what the mob is and what con it is, a lot of orange con mobs laugh at rangers due to us not being able to hit them, casters have no issues</strong></div><div> </div><div>I love Wizards from a roleplay perspective but could never bring myself to play one due to their insufficient DPS tier considering their weakness...they are glass cannons they caant land a hit as high as a medium armoured scout.</div><div> </div><div><strong>so when the mob dies all of a sudden cos a wizzie has big nuked it thats not a big hit?? oh and on a very short CA timer too</strong></div><div> </div><div>Thats why FoTm or in this case flavour of the year's are always a bad choice your gonna feel the pain sooner or later.</div><div> </div><div>If Rangers are being dps reduced to make Wizards feel better...well Im sure Wizard boards will be happy and after a year and a half of being the DPS under dog can finally retake their throne at the top of the DPS pile.</div><div> </div><div><strong>yeah so when that solo wizard nukes that named for the upteenth time and we have trouble sololing any kind of heroic due to not being about to kite or use our SOA?? </strong></div><div><strong></strong> </div><div><strong>Yeah wizards DPS lacks in a raid but it can blast us away in group play. Im sorry but this is why people like you [Removed for Content] me off, certain classes feel they should be number 1 at EVERYTHING. Hell im surprised they havent asked to be able to heal as well</strong></div><div><strong></strong> </div><div><strong>So what our procs have been taken away etc, poison changed, our DPS lowered... I will still be here at 70 playing my ranger because im a player, I love the class and dont give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] what another class is doing...I GET ON WITH IT</strong></div><hr></blockquote>

[treehouse71]

<div></div><div>Rangers should be the class with the highest DPS in the game. They are of almost no use for groups or raids if their dps is reduced to or below that of mages. Because in that case a group or raidleader will prefer taking mages which bring all their buffs with them into their group AND doing the same or more DPS !!!</div><div> </div><div>Rangers do not have group buffs and tracking is not needed in groups or raids in 99,99%. So reducing our DPS will definitely make our class unnecessary for most things. I´m playing my ranger since one year now and I would play it for some more years but I will definitely quit if they significantly reduce rangers DPS. Period.</div><div> </div><div>cheers,</div><div>Smilla Lvl60 Ranger on Innovation.</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by treehouse71 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:58 AM</span></p>

[tom1301]

<div></div>There are some aspects I'd like to be clarified:1) SOE declares this to be a BUG (likely to make Rangers think: "Oh well, then of course it must be changed" ). So why did it take 18 months to figure out? It is not a Bug. SOE intentionally built this into the game; but now found out that it made Rangers stronger than expected. It *might* be an imbalance, but not a bug.2) Why shouldn't Rangers be top DPS? Why should mages be? Rangers have little to offer to a group except damage (escape can be cast by mages, too. Tracking is nice sometimes, but not very useful. Heroic Opportunities? Nobody uses them. Disarming Traps? Important in D&D, but not needed in EQ2). Mages have some really useful group buffs. In D&D - which surely is the most important reference in RPGs due to its long history - mages are mere utility than DD, so why make them main DD in EQ2?Greetings,tom1301<div></div><p>Message Edited by tom1301 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:16 AM</span></p>

[Ayo]

Exactly right,  why if proc rate is a bug would it take this long to fix.  IF it was a bug it would of been fixed along time ago.  People don't level there characters to level 60 to log in one day and find they are less powerfull than they were at 30.  Congradulations you hit 60 and you debuffed yourself to a level 30.. With this point instead of all the casters cheering they should realize that all it takes is allot of whining by the right people and there class could be next.  I dont suggest that anyone should be nerfed I think they should concentrate on game content like armor that doesnt look like everyone elses.  Instead sony wastes valuble dev time to redisign level 1-20 armar.  How long do we actually use these level of armor.  most the time no longer than a week.  I think they need to leave game mechanics alone and concentrate on actuall things that make people feel like individuals in the game, isnt that what this game is all about.   I feel like soon we all will do the exact amount of damage all have pets evac tracking and rez.  Wont it be fun all of us running around in the exact same armor with all the same skills??? Rangers at this point are a unique class as all classes should be.   Leave them alone and concentrate on separating each class not bringing us all to the same plain!!!!!MHO<div></div>

[Teaerd]

<div></div>They can do all this but can't even spell the word Luxury for the apartments in QH! I love zoning into Teaerdar's Luxery Apartment maybe that's why rangers have the highest dps? :smileyvery-happy:

[leafnin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Teaerdal wrote:<div></div>They can do all this but can't even spell the word Luxury for the apartments in QH! I love zoning into Teaerdar's Luxery Apartment maybe that's why rangers have the highest dps? :smileyvery-happy:<hr></blockquote><p>My Room alone does 4K DPS Woot!</p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p>

[dubbs]

<div>Forget the whole class title system and Ranger vs. Wizard stuff.  Look at it this way, when setting up a group/raid you can take the following.</div><div> </div><div>A)  A character that offers a skill that won't be utilized and provides 300dps.</div><div> </div><div>or</div><div> </div><div>B) A character that will buff your group with str/int buffs, improve resists, give the tank offensive procs to help hold aggro and also deal out 400dps himself.</div><div> </div><div>Which would you choose?</div><div> </div><div>If you say "yeah, but class A has utility too" (pathfinding, track, disarm, and evac) you are sorely mistaken.  The bard in the group is going to provide all of this utility, and a whole lot more.  Besides, Class B can evac us too.  And disarm?  Let the tank eat the 200hp damage spell from the trap, oh well.  Pathfinding?  Not a big deal unless you are pulling mobs from across the zone back to your group.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Tlaloc]

<div>I notice a big debate over Wizard vs. Ranger dps.  I point never mentioned I thought I would bring up:</div><div> </div><div>Wizard /w no power = no DPS</div><div> </div><div>Ranger /w no power = some DPS</div><div> </div><div>Though rangers and all other scouts that use arrows and poison pay for the additional DPS we can constantly provide it albiet not at such devastating numbers.  As soon as a wizard or any other mage class is OOP they OO DPS (except for pet classes).  I doubt that the classes that can transfer power will be giving it to the Wizard most like in my experience they are feeding the priest classes.</div><div> </div><div>Lathu</div><div> </div><div>54 Assassin - Befallen</div>

[Ratril]

<div></div>If you think 400 DPS is good then you're a noob.  Rangers as of right now are easily putting out 1200+ DPS.  The minor int, str, and proc buffs are of no use on high end raids, therefore the only reason to bring a wizard/warlock on a raid would be for DPS.  Now lets do the math.  Bring a 1200 DPS class or a 400 DPS class?  1200 > 400, you take the 1200.  Read what the message says before you state something stupid.  People are intentionally using sub-par weapons becuase the slower delay is increasing their DPS, and not by a little but by a lot.  That is an exploit, they should be banned.  The tier 1 dps was supposed to be like the following:  direct damage = wizard/assisin/warlock/ranger.  Wizard out damaging an assisin maybe 3/4 of the time and not by a big margin.  Area effect = Warlock, ranger, wizard, assisin.  With the warlock out damanging the ranger maybe 3/4 of the time, also by not a big margin.  The current state of the game is:  Ranger = tier 0 and is out damanging everyone all of the time by a factor of about 2 to 5 times.  Rangers = broke.  If you're one of the people who are playing the game correctly you probably wont have much of a change to you.  Again read what the message says instead of screaming bloody murder...

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ratril wrote:<div></div>If you think 400 DPS is good then you're a noob.  Rangers as of right now are easily putting out 1200+ DPS.  The minor int, str, and proc buffs are of no use on high end raids, therefore the only reason to bring a wizard/warlock on a raid would be for DPS.  Now lets do the math.  Bring a 1200 DPS class or a 400 DPS class?  1200 > 400, you take the 1200.  Read what the message says before you state something stupid.  People are intentionally using sub-par weapons becuase the slower delay is increasing their DPS, and not by a little but by a lot.  That is an exploit, they should be banned.  The tier 1 dps was supposed to be like the following:  direct damage = wizard/assisin/warlock/ranger.  Wizard out damaging an assisin maybe 3/4 of the time and not by a big margin.  Area effect = Warlock, ranger, wizard, assisin.  With the warlock out damanging the ranger maybe 3/4 of the time, also by not a big margin.  The current state of the game is:  Ranger = tier 0 and is out damanging everyone all of the time by a factor of about 2 to 5 times.  Rangers = broke.  If you're one of the people who are playing the game correctly you probably wont have much of a change to you.  Again read what the message says instead of screaming bloody murder...<hr></blockquote> obviously you dotn play in beta, so you better shut up ^^, because this is not about the current state, this is actually about the coming changes that are on beta atm.and on beta a lv 60 ranger , t6 fableds and nearly full master1 does a fricking 350-400 dps when using all CA in one rush. average dps would bring ya down even further.</span><div></div>

[Thay]

We went from:<img src="http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/A1185-300.jpg">                           P-I-M-PTo:<img src="http://www.prankplace.com/images/hats/7068.jpg">          G-I-M-P<div></div>

[Ratril]

<div>It's going to bring down all the other melee and the summoner type classes also.  Everyone will be real close to what they are supposed to be.  Will, there need to be more tweaks, probably, but this is going to fix 90% of the issues.  I understand your crying, going from no one can touch your DPS to no longer being DPS kings is a big change but you were really broke.  Now you're being fixed.  Don't forget it's not just a fix to rangers.  The other melee classes were gaining the same benefits as they were.  It's a fix to everyone.  Wizards and warlocks were tier 3 DPS at best.  No one wanted them in a raid as they were more of a hinderance than a help.  They were actually the only classes that were doing the DPS that they were supposed to be doing.  As monk, brigands etc were out damaging them also.  When the patch goes live you will be right where you are supposed to be.  Rangers will still be liked and they will still be good DPS.  They just wont the be end all be all dps that they once were.  You're getting fixed, get over it.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ratril wrote:<div></div>People are intentionally using sub-par weapons becuase the slower delay is increasing their DPS, and not by a little but by a lot.  That is an exploit, they should be banned. <hr></blockquote><p>ROFL BEST LINE EVER</p><p>Yes ban us all for using 1 of only 2 weapon types available! CLASSIC!!</p>

[Kaelos_]

<font color="#ff0000">"</font><span><font color="#ff0000">obviously you dotn play in beta, so you better shut up ^^, because this is not about the current state, this is actually about the coming changes that are on beta atm.</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">and on beta a lv 60 ranger , t6 fableds and nearly full master1 does a fricking 350-400 dps when using all CA in one rush. average dps would bring ya down even further."</font>OMG. Is this for real??? You're telling my that my 60 Ranger is about to dps the same as my 60 Troubador??</span><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffffcc">" </font>I understand your crying, going from no one can touch your DPS to no longer being DPS kings is a big change but you were really broke.  Now you're being fixed. <font color="#ffffcc">"</font><font color="#ffffff">I guess they're "fixing"(ball chop eunich style) Rangers back to pre lu13.  </font><font color="#ffffcc">"</font> Don't forget it's not just a fix to rangers.  The other melee classes were gaining the same benefits as they were.  It's a fix to everyone.  <font color="#ffffcc">"Omg. you mean the other melee classes depended heavily on their procs for dps too??  wow.</font><font color="#ffffcc">" </font>Rangers will still be liked and they will still be good DPS.  They just wont the be end all be all dps that they once were.  You're getting fixed, get over it.<font color="#ffffff">"<font color="#ffffcc">Liked for what??  good dps?? according to the poster  about 2-3 messages up. We are gimped.   If you were a man and they chopped your jewels, would you get over it?</font></font></font><span></span><div></div>

[Ayo]

<div></div><font>The ranger of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes promises to differ from their counterparts in other games. While the standard archery abilities still remain, her place in this game is no longer is just a fighter mixed with a druid.Classified as an offensive fighter the ranger in combat will focus on putting out the most damage she can on the opponent. A two weapon fighting style added to the use of bows, will allow her to start the attack at stand off range, then continue it all the way till the end with a finishing slash of blades.Unlike a defensive fighter the ranger's armor choices will be more limited. Chain types of armor will most likely be the heaviest armor for the class. This means that while she can hand out a lot of pain on her adversary, she won't be as able to take the damage like a pure fighter can. Still, the idea of killing your enemy before they kill you has its place- no matter your armor.Outside of combat is where a ranger's skills in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes may make her even more valuable. Travel through the wilderness in Telon promises to be an adventure in itself. The need to perceive the dangers around you will be very real. Having a guide to help you through will be a useful thing. This is where the ranger will shine, scouting the way ahead and spotting dangers which others might miss. Her ties with nature will be reflected in her observation abilities and skill at tracking the enemy.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Ayode on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:18 PM</span></p>

[Korpo]

Wow, Vanguard certainly sounds like it will be perfect from the day it comes out and will never ever change and they'll allow a class to perform 2x the damage of every other class from day one on until the end of time. Where do I sign up?<div></div>

[USAFJeeper]

<div>Sure was nice to not have to LFG forever for a while!  Ah well time to go back to that alt warlock I have!   Good thing I am in a guild or I would never be recruited for one!</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Sevm]

<div>Many have asked my mages should be top tier DPS over rangers.  Its simple - I will trade you all my buffs (+ ordination, subjugation [Removed for Content], and my poison/disease resists) <--- my only 2 buffs - for your evac, pathfinding, disarm trap, and movement increase. </div><div> </div><div>In addition, scouts can get hit.  Mages are one-shotted by 99% percent of all T6 raid mobs where as scouts can pull these mobs and take a hit or two while the tanks pulls them off - no way any mage could do that with less mitigation armor, less hitpoints, and avoidance.</div><div> </div><div>And theres the power consumption issue in addition to the previous advantages rangers have over mages.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff33">So, Rangers can be TOP DPS if they trade us buffs and trade us armor and hitpoints and avoidance, and go OOP every T6 raid battle over 1 minute.  </font></div><div> </div><div>Any other questions?  because I cannot fathom why you would think mages (especially warlocks) shouldn't get any advantages over another DPS class after giving up so much.  Apparently you dont know the other classes very well from my presumption.</div>

[Cyberspacedemon]

<div>Many have asked my mages should be top tier DPS over rangers.  Its simple - I will trade you all my buffs (+ ordination, subjugation [Removed for Content], and my poison/disease resists) <--- my only 2 buffs - for your evac, pathfinding, disarm trap, and movement increase. </div><div> </div><div>In addition, scouts can get hit.  Mages are one-shotted by 99% percent of all T6 raid mobs where as scouts can pull these mobs and take a hit or two while the tanks pulls them off - no way any mage could do that with less mitigation armor, less hitpoints, and avoidance.</div><div> </div><div>And theres the power consumption issue in addition to the previous advantages rangers have over mages.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff33">So, Rangers can be TOP DPS if they trade us buffs and trade us armor and hitpoints and avoidance, and go OOP every T6 raid battle over 1 minute.  </font></div><div> </div><div>Any other questions?  because I cannot fathom why you would think mages (especially warlocks) shouldn't get any advantages over another DPS class after giving up so much.  Apparently you dont know the other classes very well from my presumption.----------------------------------Man guy I love your idea How about this I will give you my chain armor so you can die in 2 hits instead of 1 and also Id love to hand you my Avoidance...  If i had any and also Just for good  measure You can have my 3 Basic "SCOUT" abilitys That every scout has. Sure why not!!  Maybe your presumption is wrong, cause even though we have chain armor we still die as fast as a caster  -DOHHHH-  Oh wait you know how it is, that im sure ofThe fact of the matter is We dont last any longer than you and if we do its usually around 3 - 6 seconds long and also have you ever seen a ranger run out of power?  it isnt pretty so why dont you go read some more or better yet I have an idea go make a ranger cause most opinions that are negitive to rangers and are totally oiff base to how rangers realy are come from some jealouse non-dps class or a lacky dps class that wished it had the dps that rangers have the potential to have.In lord of the rings what happened? The elf with the bow = ranger 1 hit about 800 orcs and gandalf the great grey geriatric was on a pretty horse and pranced around like a fairy and then got slammed by his buddy at the old folks home then climbed onto a eagle and flew away... gimmi a break..peace</div>

[King Leor]

<div></div><p>Congrats Tal'shiar, you are officially the stupidest person to post on the ranger forums so far. WE haves tonnes of utility compared to wizards????? LOL!!!! My left testicle has more utility than a ranger does. We are strictly DPS. So do tell me, what exactly is it that we have that makes us great with utilities? And ya know...your right, my chain gear will withstand tonnes more from a raid mob than some cloth... PLEASE!!!</p><p>LeoricLevel 60 ranger</p>

[BaYbEE-Fi]

<div></div><p>Wow Ayode thats the Ranger i want to be, i think i used to be that in EQ2 :smileysad:</p><p>Thats a promising sounding game to me, i bet it will be EQ2s closest rival eh ?</p><p>They have PvP ?</p>

[Stigch]

<div></div><div>Why does everyone keep questioning why rangers should not be top dps. Why does noone wonder why they should? Why should rangers be top dps? It's not as if we're the best trained, best armored, best weaponed people on the battle field. Honestly, rangers track their quary and then plug an arrow or two in them. We are hunters, not warriors. There is a differense. Same line of reasoning as casters not wearing plate armor. Casters don't wear plate armor, regardless of the fact that you might want them to, they just don't. The ranger is not a palladin or a brawler. Rangers are not in the frontlines hacking away. Rangers are more clever than sword swingers. They choose position and fire craftly aimed arrows. Rangers were never meant to step up to be mighty dragon slayers. Are you useless at l60 raid? I wouldn't know. I'm not l60. What I do know is that SOE tries to keep the classes balanced. So if you're not being asked for raids it is not because you stink, but because peopel think you stink. That's not SOE's problem, that's your problem. If you go into it with a negative attitude, it'll never work.</div><div> </div><div>You see, I never even noticed my procs changing. Somedays I seem to proc more than other days. Am I bothered about that? Not really. I pick my targets well, I pick my spots well and I clear out whole fields or mobs with my trusty bow. I might be slower than you, exp wise. But I'm not paying through the teeth for poisons and arrows and I'm not wasting any time finding groups or raids. My armor is what I find in the field. And my melee weps out right suck. I'm nearing 30 and I'm still using two razor sharp shivs. They still work for me. I can still melee white cons with storebought poison and crappy chain and leather armor. Sure a fight gets me down to a bub or less of health. So what,  a minute later you're full up ready to go.  level three, four times a week, depends on my play time. Most importantly, I'm having fun and none of the recent changes have caused my major troubles. If you're depending or a very very narrow margin for your fight style to work, it is you that's doing something wrong. Not SOE.</div><div> </div><div>If noone wants you in their group. Go out on your own. You're more than capable of it.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Bithnar]

<div>Stigchel these changes that are being bemoaned are not in live yet they are in Beta of KoS and will be live Tuesday unless changed.  Unless you are in the Beta test you won't see this change till it goes live.</div>

[ary]

<div></div><p>Goodness stigchel your threshold for fun is not universal in case the point may have escaped your notice.We play on different parameters.</p><p>I enjoy crafting my poison and my alchemy is higher than my adventurer level. I harvest and sell rares with that I buy weapons and bows.I am not superbly equipped but I upgrade every five levels and yes I buy the best I can but I do not spend crazily. I enjoy dropping a yellow con before it reaches me with my excellent debuffs and dots poison which I take pride in crafting.This is what brings me joy. If you find being reduced to a bubble of life fun then try to understand others have different definitions for what fun is and neither one of us is right or wrong.However what I find annoying is your pronouncment that since SOE has not managed to disappoint you that everyone else who may find the reduction of DPS as frivolous and without merit. That it is our problem that we find the lack of satisfaction in SOE.</p><p>I am extremely glad that you enjoy what SOE is providing but spare me the sermons on negative attitudes.</p><p>Some people like to test the limits of their characters and enjoy pushing the numbers and crunching them and indeed maximizing their characters and quite honestlly who are you to preach on what people who play games for past times enjoy or should be enjoying. Accept that we are all different and different things make us like the games we do. It is truly a sad day if all of us consider being reduced to bubble of life as enjoyable.  I am not saying it is not just that it would be sad if that is the standard we should be content with.</p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sevman wrote:<div>Many have asked my mages should be top tier DPS over rangers.  Its simple - I will trade you all my buffs (+ ordination, subjugation [Removed for Content], and my poison/disease resists) <--- my only 2 buffs - for your evac, pathfinding, disarm trap, and movement increase. </div><div> </div><div>In addition, scouts can get hit.  Mages are one-shotted by 99% percent of all T6 raid mobs where as scouts can pull these mobs and take a hit or two while the tanks pulls them off - no way any mage could do that with less mitigation armor, less hitpoints, and avoidance.</div><div> </div><div>And theres the power consumption issue in addition to the previous advantages rangers have over mages.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#ffff33">So, Rangers can be TOP DPS if they trade us buffs and trade us armor and hitpoints and avoidance, and go OOP every T6 raid battle over 1 minute.  </font></div><div> </div><div>Any other questions?  because I cannot fathom why you would think mages (especially warlocks) shouldn't get any advantages over another DPS class after giving up so much.  Apparently you dont know the other classes very well from my presumption.</div><hr></blockquote><p>ALL my previous toons in EQ2  and EQ1 have all been casters...  I can say this, In EQ1 damage melle classes always out dpsed casters.  Rogues in EQ1 were gods.  Mele class with Pure DPS and stealth attacks.</p><p>Being a caster you have many more options to you in what you bring to a group.</p><p>Warlocks and Rangers are too different types of DPS.  Warlocks specialise in AE combat while rangers are primarily single target.  Apples and Oranges.  Both shine in thier respective fields.  My last toon was infact a warlock and I do feel for you.  Unless you had a cleric buddy who was willing to keep you alive on multimob encounters the warlock specialty got you hit ALOT.</p>

[Tseri]

<div>I still have to chuckle at the other classes that come in here talking about our utility.  As it has been pointed out several times, but people seem to miss it, lets try one more time.</div><div> </div><div>Tracking, Pathfinding, Evac, disarm trap...</div><div> </div><div><strong>SCOUT </strong>abilities.</div><div> </div><div>Which means that the trouby, dirge, swashy, brigand, assassin and ranger can ALL do these.</div><div> </div><div>So, where's my utility (that I don't pay for)?  Hrm...foresters noose...debuff heat resist...man, big time utility there huh?</div>

[Tevilspek]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Ayode wrote:<div></div><font>The ranger of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes promises to differ from their counterparts in other games. While the standard archery abilities still remain, her place in this game is no longer is just a fighter mixed with a druid.Classified as an offensive fighter the ranger in combat will focus on putting out the most damage she can on the opponent. A two weapon fighting style added to the use of bows, will allow her to start the attack at stand off range, then continue it all the way till the end with a finishing slash of blades.Unlike a defensive fighter the ranger's armor choices will be more limited. Chain types of armor will most likely be the heaviest armor for the class. This means that while she can hand out a lot of pain on her adversary, she won't be as able to take the damage like a pure fighter can. Still, the idea of killing your enemy before they kill you has its place- no matter your armor.Outside of combat is where a ranger's skills in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes may make her even more valuable. Travel through the wilderness in Telon promises to be an adventure in itself. The need to perceive the dangers around you will be very real. Having a guide to help you through will be a useful thing. This is where the ranger will shine, scouting the way ahead and spotting dangers which others might miss. Her ties with nature will be reflected in her observation abilities and skill at tracking the enemy.</font><hr></blockquote>Ok... so a Vanguard Ranger is almost exactly the same as an EQ2 Ranger apart from the fact you use your bow a little less and melee a little more.Wow.. innovative. I can hardly grasp the uniqueness of it all.Bow.. melee.. chain armour.. can't take upfront damage.. tracking.. sound familiar?</span></div>

[TaleraRis]

<div></div><p>Something I have to point out.</p><p>Pathfinding = movement increase</p><p>They're not two separate buffs. All pathfinding does is give an increase by what, 18%? That's not even as high as SoW.</p>

[Tseri]

<div>Not even 18%, 16%.</div><div> </div><div>Don't forget that it suspends during combat....</div>

[Robbpilot]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>jagermiester wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Tal'shiar wrote:<div>I play a Pally incidentally so never go with the Fotm but,</div><div> </div><div>A Ranger should NEVER out damage a Wizard you wear medium armor and have a tonne of Utility Wizards wear dressing gowns and have sub par utility, yet get to suffer the embarrasment of being out damaged by the rangers in their group... I love Wizards from a roleplay perspective but could never bring myself to play one due to their insufficient DPS tier considering their weakness...they are glass cannons they caant land a hit as high as a medium armoured scout.</div><div> </div><div>Thats why FoTm or in this case flavour of the year's are always a bad choice your gonna feel the pain sooner or later.</div><div> </div><div>If Rangers are being dps reduced to make Wizards feel better...well Im sure Wizard boards will be happy and after a year and a half of being the DPS under dog can finally retake their throne at the top of the DPS pile.</div><p></p><hr><p> </p><p><font color="#ccff00">Obviously you have never played a ranger. What utility? Disarm traps? Invis self? Track</font>? Who the hell uses any of that as a basis for a "utility" class. Rangers were spose to be pure dps. So why is it an issue if we are? We are spose to be as good if not better than wizzys. AS for armor....dont make me laugh if you dont control your aggro my chain armor gets waxed what . 5 secs longer than cloth? The poisions we use cost a ton i easily spend over a plat on them for a good xp session. I use t6 legendary cause i like to be dps. You dont see wizzys spending a ton on reagent for their big nukes.....its give and take. And what SoE is doing is all take. I like when i watch a group mob go green orange dead. It makes me feel usefull. I played a ranger through the eq1 nerf that basically rendered the class a joke or just a ranged specialist at raids.  Please atleast know what you are talking about before you go spouting off about  DPS.</p><p> </p></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>LOL, try playing a berserker if you want to feel no utility.  I can't invis, buff my run speed, track mobs, and the only "utility" spell I get is the ability to ensure my own death so that I might perhaps prevent my group from wiping.  Not complaining mind you, just saying that I'd take your utilities gladly if I could get them.

[klepp]

<div></div>ok sev.. do ya pay a couple plat a week for your dps?

[klepp]

<div>and korpo... the reason eq2 tends to suck is because they try to make everyone the same... yes someoen should do alot more dmg than someone of a different class... and who said anything about 2x?  only thing we outdmg by 2x is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] priest.  I guess they should have compareable dps too?   Oh and who else buys there dps? ever seen a rangers dps w/out poisons?   nope cause a ranger wont bother gropuin w/out em cause the dps is laughable.  so for a few plat a week, yea we should do some sick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] dmg</div>

[Korpo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>and korpo... the reason eq2 tends to suck is because they try to make everyone the same... yes someoen should do alot more dmg than someone of a different class... and who said anything about 2x?  only thing we outdmg by 2x is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] priest.  I guess they should have compareable dps too?   Oh and who else buys there dps? ever seen a rangers dps w/out poisons?   nope cause a ranger wont bother gropuin w/out em cause the dps is laughable.  so for a few plat a week, yea we should do some sick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] dmg</div><hr></blockquote>Rangers can indeed provide 2x the dps of other T1 dps classes. I've seen it done, it's been reported left and right, and in fact 2x is a low end estimate.Who else buys their dps? Who else can use a common weapon, ad1 combat arts, poison that costs a few gold, arrows that cost a few copper, and still spank every other class on a raid?</span></div>

[Jeris Nefz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>korpo53 wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>and korpo... the reason eq2 tends to suck is because they try to make everyone the same... yes someoen should do alot more dmg than someone of a different class... and who said anything about 2x?  only thing we outdmg by 2x is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] priest.  I guess they should have compareable dps too?   Oh and who else buys there dps? ever seen a rangers dps w/out poisons?   nope cause a ranger wont bother gropuin w/out em cause the dps is laughable.  so for a few plat a week, yea we should do some sick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] dmg</div><hr></blockquote>Rangers can indeed provide 2x the dps of other T1 dps classes. I've seen it done, it's been reported left and right, and in fact 2x is a low end estimate.<strong>Who else buys their dps? Who else can use a common weapon, ad1 combat arts, poison that costs a few gold, arrows that cost a few copper, and still spank every other class on a raid?</strong></span></div><hr></blockquote>Rest assured... if you are getting 1000-1200+ dps on a raid, the ranger has combat arts higher than adept 1 (or is EXTREMELY lucky).  If you are raiding, you won't have "a common weapon."  If you do, it must be your first or second raid.  EVERY raiding ranger I know has at the least a legendary crafted bow, most will have fabled if they have been raiding for any length of time.  Poisons cost more than "a few gold" to use.  On my server, they cost 10-12g per vial.  If I use a damage poison, debuff poison, and a effect poison, mulitply that by 3 (for each different effect that stacks).  If I am on a long raid I can expect to use at least 1.5 vials of each effect.  So to minimize the cost saying "it's a few gold" is a huge understatement.  I won't go far as to say that it is a few plat a raid as some have.  However, I do spend several plat a week on poisons. (FWIW I am a T6 alchy too)  While I agree that rangers DO need their DPS lowered to be in line with other t1 classes, emasculating them is something completely different.  With the changes in poison quality and the amount of procs overall, I do forsee a HUGE pendulum swing back to pre LU#13.  I hope that I am sorely mistaken.  I will be happy to be wrong about this.  All things are pointing in the direction that I am not unfortunately.  Hopefully it won't be LU 33 before we are fixed again.  Time will tell.

[Kaelos_]

<span><font color="#ff0000">Who else buys their dps? Who else can use a common weapon, ad1 combat arts, poison that costs a few gold, arrows that cost a few copper, and still spank every other class on a raid?</font>let's see. predators and rogues buy poisons to increase their dps.  Common weapon? our primary weapon is the Ironwood bow. ya I guess it's just as common as any cobalt weapon out there.poison that costs a few gold. let's see. on my server adeste is about 9g(which is cheap compared to some of the other servers) shissar(poison debuff) is about 6g. those are just the poisons i have on all the time. I go throug about 3-4 vials per big raid.. so that's about 45-60g per raid.  raid about 3-4 times a week.. that's btwn 1.2p to 2.4p depending on how much i want to raid.  wow. i guess that's why i'm always killing trash mobs for vendor sells on my spare time when I don't raid to pay for my poisons, but then again i'm using poisons to kill those trash mobs so i can kill them quick.  wow it's a vicious cycle.  I really need to make money a different way.  It's too bad i can't get into tradeskilling.  I hate tradeskilling.Arrows that costs a few copper.  I only buy those for when i need slash weapons or when my summoned arrows get low.  I usually use the summoned stuff because i'm too broke to afford the more expensive legendary arrows.  but most of the time i used the summoned arrows that i push the button for at work. yes i log into eq at work just to refill my arrow stash.. do we need to get into how many arrows we use per raid??  let's just say I carry over 5k arrows just in case.  I usually end up using btwn 2-3k per raid.and still spank every class on a raid..   with all the above listed things i have to do to play a ranger.   sure. why not?  because in the end the only thing we are good at is dps and to keep that dps is a lot of work and a lot of plat.  currently rangers aren't good for anything else. we are built to kill and take down the mob.  my guild doesn't say. hey. let's pick the ranger over the brig for his debuffs. hell no. you will never hear that. or let's pick the ranger over the bard for his buffs.. that would be frikkin insane.  that is the only thing my ranger is built for. dps dps dps. sadly with the changes on test, it doesn't look great for my ranger, because too many people cried nerf the f'n ranger. nerf nerf nerf.  It's sad to see other classes cry that when we spent about 10months (pre lu13) playing a broken class with no purpose in raids.  our dps was laughable then.  then finally lu13 gave us a purpose. we are dps.  I had a role in my guild.  I wasn't invited out of pity.  I really put a lot of work, time and energy into my ranger.  It felt good to be able to contribute on raids.  I really hope lu20 doesn't kill my purpose/role on raids.   To be born a crippled class, then given wings to fly, then to be stripped of those wings to be crippled again.  I simply can't do it.  I know as rangers we learn to adapt, but I cannot go back to what it used to be.  It's too sad. </span><div></div>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jeris Nefzen wrote:<div></div><p>Rest assured... if you are getting 1000-1200+ dps on a raid, the ranger has combat arts higher than adept 1 (or is EXTREMELY lucky). </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>You have to remember who you are talking too Jeris.  This is a guy who thinks that 450 x 2 = 650.  We all know that Rangers can not sustain this kind of DPS for any length of time.  This is burst DPS. 

[Korpo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jeris Nefzen wrote:<div></div><p>Rest assured... if you are getting 1000-1200+ dps on a raid, the ranger has combat arts higher than adept 1 (or is EXTREMELY lucky). </p><p></p><hr></blockquote>You have to remember who you are talking too Jeris.  This is a guy who thinks that 450 x 2 = 650.  We all know that Rangers can not sustain this kind of DPS for any length of time.  This is burst DPS. <hr></blockquote>Where did I say 450 x 2 = 650? Because a 58 wizard in Roost did 450 dps, and a 58 ranger in Roost did 650 dps does not mean that's the only situation that counts. The ranger could suck, the wizard could suck (from the sound of it, both are true), they could be using different spell levels, whatever. However, I have personally seen rangers parse 1200, 1400, or more on raids. I have seen parses from better rangers than ours that spank those numbers. Doing some quick math, when you have assn/wiz/war in the 800-1000 range and rangers in the 1200-1400+ range that's close enough to 2x for me to not bother doing quick math. For those interested though, that's 1.2x - 1.75x.Burst DPS over the course of a whole raid mob, yeah. People don't usually yell out parse numbers every two seconds on a raid, they yell out the total dps.</span></div>

[Garlicyesterday]

<div>Wow , i just read all this , no wonder SoE dont listen to feedbacks from us players ...</div><div> </div><div>So many in here have no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idea what they are talking about and most of those are you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing mages coming in here to post about rangers</div><div> </div><div>Ever see me posting in the mage section ? No because i dont give a crap what you guys get or do , i care about my class , how about you do the same!</div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><p>"progressively more significant effect it is having as the game evolves"</p><p>I bet they run a count query on the classes and if one starts to grow more numerous they look at nerfing that one.  This isn't a bug.  They did this deliberately in LU13 to boost the number of scouts in the game.  And now they are concerned because oh my god, people are playing scouts, just like they wanted!</p><p>Stop whining and roll another toon or 3.  The only way to protect yourself is to switch classes when they pull this crap.  That way, you'll be on the up when it happens.</p><p> </p>

[NimSul]

<div></div>I had a lvl 60 ranger alt for doing dps and looking at pretty orange numbersonce in a while, guess its time to put him in the closet and make the top dps class for KoS. My money is on a fury i think.

[Ecnomorc]

It should be Ranger, Assassins... top dps on single target. Wizards and Warlocks top dps multi targets. End of storyIm really starting to get [Removed for Content] off from all the people that are complaining about other peoples classes, the mages and other classes that come in here are start [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. We are trying to fix the problem not drop an atom bomb. Aye I may have been a little over powered... fine lower me so im even with tier 1 dps.All of these people saying "rangers do 1200DPS" Yes on a single target thats a solo .... duh im two shoting it in about 2 sec yeah im going to do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load of dps... Now on a heroic it doesnt do that... I usually am at about 400-500. Graphs of our dps spike in the begining then balance out... its because we use 3 strong attacks at the start then go with our smaller ones. Hidden Shot, Triple Arrow, Precise shot... thats the spike right there thats the 1200 dps. Then we start shooting crippling arrow, snaring shot and the other ones... thats when it falls. on a graph its looks like this ^---------  I usually average 400-600 heroic 3 up in a group, full set of cobalt, full vanadium, all adept IIIs 57+, legendary bow, leg poison. LOTS OF MONEYI hate how people on the pvp beta servers are all like... rangers kill me in 5 sec they need to be nerfed... Yeah if i find ya before you find me your in deep [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Im gonna shoot you up big time. If you find me before i find you... uhhh oh i cant melee = Dead rangerRangers are about to be lower then assassins, wizzys and warlocks.... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is sony thinking yeah we may need a change but dont freaking put us back to pre LU13 atleast make us on par...<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div>

[Hiro]

I just want to say to all the rangers that say we don't pay for our DPS. have you ever raided with a warlock? on avrage I pay 2 plat a week on repair fees from dying not to mention my bags are full of back up armor instead of arrows so when I die 30 times I still have armor to keep doing my 700 dps. so before you say nobody else pays for DPS think again. Sure everyone dies but not nearly as much as a warlock or wizard.<div></div>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><p>I'm not really buying that argument.  I don't notice wizards and warlocks dying more than others.  I died 16 times in the past 2 days of raiding.  I rarely ever see a mage go naked first.  Last night it was the MA that took the most deaths.  The night before, a priest.  It varies too much to lay that kind of claim.</p><p>Are there people who go on raids without a back-up set of gear?  Maybe I'm naive, but I thought this was a given.</p>

[leafnin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Hiro32 wrote:I just want to say to all the rangers that say we don't pay for our DPS. have you ever raided with a warlock? on avrage I pay 2 plat a week on repair fees from dying not to mention my bags are full of back up armor instead of arrows so when I die 30 times I still have armor to keep doing my 700 dps. so before you say nobody else pays for DPS think again. Sure everyone dies but not nearly as much as a warlock or wizard.<div></div><p></p><hr><p>Ummm aggro control is your friend.  Other players die too you know so the armour repair bill hits everyone else as well.  Might I suggest you get in a group with a Troub or get a Pally for Amends?   Also the blanket opinion that Sorcerers die more then anyone else is just an opinion.  I could easily prove you wrong by taking off  Primal Agility and not control my aggro too.  My guild leader likes to pull and he has more deaths per raid then most .  Does this mean his class dies more then others game wide?  No it just simply means he chooses to put himself in that position, just as you choose to overaggro for a high DPS number.  The point of a raid is to beat a mob not to pad your ego.  You made your choice please don't use that to play a martyr.  Thank you.</p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p></blockquote>

[MegaDavidoff]

<div></div><p>I get so tired....</p><p>All different classes saying this and that about Ranger classes. In most cases they have <font color="#ff0000">no</font> idea what they are talking about. Its not all about how much dps u do in raid fx. Someone has to have highest dpsin raids. And since we have no buffs etc... as it has been explained .. and talking about that we can take hits.. what a joke... *lol*</p><p> (I even heard healers talking about how little dps they do.. It makes me wonder why h**L they are healers. )</p><p>I have 1 high lvl monk & 1 high lvl warlock. There is <font color="#ff0000">no </font>way I can take the same mobs with my Ranger..  OMG I can take out <font color="#3366ff">nameds</font> around my lvl with the warlock. Root dots etc.... heroics are np etc..</p><p>Try to do that with a Ranger.... I can continue and give different exampels forever....  I just think this diskussion is stupid... and I feel that ppl that dosent now our class shouldnt even say anything.</p><p> </p><p>And im even more looking forward to play Vanguard if this is gonna go on.</p>

[NimSul]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr>Ecnomorc wrote:It should be Ranger, Assassins... top dps on single target. Wizards and Warlocks top dps multi targets. End of storyIm really starting to get [Removed for Content] off from all the people that are complaining about other peoples classes, the mages and other classes that come in here are start [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. We are trying to fix the problem not drop an atom bomb. Aye I may have been a little over powered... fine lower me so im even with tier 1 dps.All of these people saying "rangers do 1200DPS" Yes on a single target thats a solo .... duh im two shoting it in about 2 sec yeah im going to do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load of dps... Now on a heroic it doesnt do that... I usually am at about 400-500. Graphs of our dps spike in the begining then balance out... its because we use 3 strong attacks at the start then go with our smaller ones. Hidden Shot, Triple Arrow, Precise shot... thats the spike right there thats the 1200 dps. Then we start shooting crippling arrow, snaring shot and the other ones... thats when it falls. on a graph its looks like this ^---------  I usually average 400-600 heroic 3 up in a group, full set of cobalt, full vanadium, all adept IIIs 57+, legendary bow, leg poison. LOTS OF MONEYI hate how people on the pvp beta servers are all like... rangers kill me in 5 sec they need to be nerfed... Yeah if i find ya before you find me your in deep [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Im gonna shoot you up big time. If you find me before i find you... uhhh oh i cant melee = Dead rangerRangers are about to be lower then assassins, wizzys and warlocks.... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is sony thinking yeah we may need a change but dont freaking put us back to pre LU13 atleast make us on par...<hr size="2" width="100%"><p>While i agree it looks very much like rangers are getting overnerfed, this here statement is just silly. Im sorry but your a pretty poor ranger, i got about half and half treasured/legendary gear and use normal poisons/tin arrows and have adept 3 CA's. On in normal groups on normal mobs (ie not monk/orange mobs) i can keep up 800ish dps in 90% of the fights a lil less on grouped mobs because im [Removed for Content] at targetting/timing and stuff. In raids with legendary poison/tin arrows i am top dps over all other classes with mostly fabled/master with my highest parse so far(on named mobs) being 1400ish dps over a fight where i did 90k ish damage (64-65sec). Thats just so wrong that i can be top dps over people thats way more skilled at their class than i am, basically all i do is spam the bowshots thats not greyed out, no stacking them in ways to match recast timers, no using debuffs before others, just good old spam.</p><p>However i do think that it sounds like rangers are being way overnerfed. I see it like ranger/assassin/wizzy/warlock should be different ways of doing about the same tier1 damage, having different advantages/disadvantages.</p><p> </p></blockquote>

[TangBaBa]

<div></div><div><p>[start quote]</p><p><strong>Moorgard says</strong>:</p></div><div> </div><div>"<em><strong>The oft-quoted DPS tiers I talked about around LU13 are still the intended order.</strong> As BG clarified, rangers have been in a stratosphere of damage all by themselves, and this disparity would only be further amplified with the increased level cap.</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>These issues needed to be addressed.</em></div><div> </div><div>...</div><div> </div><div><em>In reviewing the DPS graphs by class on beta for the past week, then comparing them to the graphs of the days since the proc changes have gone to the beta servers, there has been a change in Ranger damage on Beta.  Prior to today, <strong>Rangers on the extreme end were capping out at 4000 damage per second.</strong></em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>That is not a typo. </em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>Obviously, that kind of damage is rather insane.</em> </div><div> </div><div>...</div><div> </div><div>... <em>the current graphs for today--meaning after all the proc rate changes--place Rangers right up there in their customary place with the other top tier damage dealers, exactly as they are on Live, but <strong>not beating the next closest class by 3x as they were</strong> on beta last week.</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>[end quote]</div><div> </div><div></div><div>Is there anything anyone can really say to justify 4000 DPS?</div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>TangBaBa wrote:<div></div><div><p>[start quote]</p><p><strong>Moorgard says</strong>:</p></div><div> </div><div>"<em><strong>The oft-quoted DPS tiers I talked about around LU13 are still the intended order.</strong> As BG clarified, rangers have been in a stratosphere of damage all by themselves, and this disparity would only be further amplified with the increased level cap.</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>These issues needed to be addressed.</em></div><div> </div><div>...</div><div> </div><div><em>In reviewing the DPS graphs by class on beta for the past week, then comparing them to the graphs of the days since the proc changes have gone to the beta servers, there has been a change in Ranger damage on Beta.  Prior to today, <strong>Rangers on the extreme end were capping out at 4000 damage per second.</strong></em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>That is not a typo. </em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>Obviously, that kind of damage is rather insane.</em> </div><div> </div><div>...</div><div> </div><div>... <em>the current graphs for today--meaning after all the proc rate changes--place Rangers right up there in their customary place with the other top tier damage dealers, exactly as they are on Live, but <strong>not beating the next closest class by 3x as they were</strong> on beta last week.</em></div><div><em></em> </div><div>[end quote]</div><div> </div><div></div><div>Is there anything anyone can really say to justify 4000 DPS?</div><hr></blockquote><p>Um you seemed to like to cut out the important part of this.  The 4000 DPS was due to a stacking issue with AA's and the proc formula imbalance becoming more pronounced which you convienently seemed to snip out.  They have since taken care of both issues in this same post which again you seemed to leave out.  I think you believe it was happening Live?</p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class="date_text">02-19-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:45 PM</span></p>

[Shinta]

Why can't they just leave the classes alone? I saw how they f*ed up all the classes in EQ1. What's next, meleeing clerics? Oh that's right, they've already done that in EQ1... let's just make every class better than every other class.   T_T<div></div>

[sAs-Bartleby]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ecnomorc wrote:........... I hate how people on the pvp beta servers are all like... rangers kill me in 5 sec they need to be nerfed... ........<hr size="2" width="100%">And that is why i hate pvp.It is only because of pvp that everyone crys about the other classes.And this will never stop. Keep that in mind.I wished SOE would install pvp only on pvp servers and leave all other servers without pvp.Then they could make it the right way.<div></div><hr></blockquote></span>

[MegaDavidoff]

<p>Another thing...</p><p>* What about every class being speciel & char. unique.. thats the thing! Everyone that have played the game for a while and tried different classes, know that every class is needed. The strength in a raid fx ..should be and normally is a nice mix of all classes.</p><p>As I see it.. there should be difference.. classes and even in the classes. All char looking exactly the same, have the same dps,can heal,debuff,ward,give group buffs etc, riding same horses livivng at the same place etc etc.... Well its not much of a game then... I can just as well play Couterstrike then..</p><p> </p><p><em>(The 4000 dps example is just another example thats stupid.... wont even comment it)</em></p>

[klepp]

<div></div>no doubt, they change us.. next some other classes is whimpering they arent on top.  Id understand being even with other T1 dps classes.  Albeit we should be a bit better and single as casters should be a bit better at AE.  What i dont agree with is they are trying to put us even with other T1 classes After figureing the poison that we PAY for.. and not just a little bit either...    absolutely bs imo ... we need to raise quite the ruckus or we're accepting our fate now. What do we have that constitutes us paying out ATLEAST 2 plat a week ....   compareable dps?   [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]

[klepp]

<div>yea 4000dps lol riiiiight</div><div> </div><div>Sniper shot on a solo mob 15 lvls below you = 4000dps</div>

[Bithnar]

<div></div><div>Here is my question . . . where did the 4000 DPS come from?</div><div> </div><div>To answer to my satisfaction I want to know a few things first:</div><div>1. What was the lvl of the ranger comparied to the mob?</div><div>2. What was the next highest DPS number? (If it was close to the ranger's then it becomes a moot point)</div><div>3. What was the gear the ranger was using, including poisons?</div><div>4. What buffs were on the ranger that might have increased his DPS?</div><div>5. Was this burst DPS or sustained?  I know if we fire off all our CA as soon as we can we can get monsterous DPS</div><div>6. Was this an Epic mob or a 3 down arrow mob?</div><div> </div><div>If these questions are answered then we can start to pick apart the numbers and come to good conclusions.  But to just throw out a number without any explination of where it came from is useless.</div>

[BedlamX]

I guess I would like to know one thing. The Devs have found a way to make the Ranger fairly usless in a group by removing DPS not to mention Raids and they have over the months nerfed our ability to solo with Kiting and SOA. What is left in this Game for the Ranger. As far as I see it I am the customer I pay for their service  if they want to keep me they have to convice me that what they are doing benefits me the customer.  Granted you cant please everyone. This isnt an ldol threat by any means but if we as rangers feel we are getting totally shafted by these changes our only recouse is to cancel. I am not saying that I will be doing so I am simply saying that SOE has made their mind up and nothing short of canceling 50,000 accounts will make them listen. I will tell you this much I will evaluate KOS for myself and if I feel my class is useless and no longer needed I wont roll another player I will move on to other mean of entertainment. FYI my guild will be recieving all my property and $ so dont ask.BedlamX

[Gareorn]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>BedlamX wrote:I will tell you this much I will evaluate KOS for myself and if I feel my class is useless and no longer needed I wont roll another player I will move on to other mean of entertainment.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm taking the same approach.  I did not pre-order KoS for me and my wife because we want to evaluate the changes first and don't want to waste any more money unecessarily.  The gauge will be, are we continuing to have fun.  I said in another thread that I'm not going away and that I'm going to fight this out, but after thinking about it with a little less emotion, I really don't want to wait another nine months to get my character fixed if it turns out to be broke again.</p><p>If we are not having fun, we won't be playing, and if we are not playing, we are not going to continue to drop the $44 a month on two station passes.  We really don't play the other games much anymore.</p><p>One other thing, if you leave, can I have...</p><blockquote><hr>BedlamX wrote:FYI my guild will be recieving all my property and $ so dont ask.<hr></blockquote><p>Oh, never mind.</p>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>TangBaBa wrote:<div></div><div><p>[start quote]</p><p><strong>Moorgard says</strong>:</p></div><div><em>In reviewing the DPS graphs by class on beta for the past week, then comparing them to the graphs of the days since the proc changes have gone to the beta servers, there has been a change in Ranger damage on Beta.  Prior to today, <strong><font color="#ffff33">Rangers on the extreme</font> end were capping out at 4000 damage per second.</strong></em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><em>That is not a typo. </em></div><div><em></em> </div><div><div><em></em></div></div><div>Is there anything anyone can really say to justify 4000 DPS?</div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">What does "on the extreme" mean anyway?</font>Right now on live ----->6 triple down arrow green mobs + Storm or Arrows = 4k easy             (for sorcerors see Devastation spell)1 no arrow green mob + Sniper's = 4k easy                                          (for sorcerors see Ice Comet spell)Me in all Legendary and Fabled + raid mobs = 450 to 550                    (for sorcerors, see same or better raid parses plus your buffs)</p><p>I'd like to know where the 4k number came from myself since it's causing such an uproar.If Rangers were doin 4k DPS in a 1 minute or more long fight, then yeah, there needed to be a change.If they were doin 4k DPS in a 3 second slaughter, I see no issue as I do that now on live.Sure would be nice if SOE would toss us a bone of info and clarify what condition this happened under.And if it was due to AAs, then fix the freakin AAs, don't cut my damage in half without them.</p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:20 AM</span></p>

[Mrhan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MegaDavidoff wrote:<div></div><p>I get so tired....</p><p>All different classes saying this and that about Ranger classes. In most cases they have <font color="#ff0000">no</font> idea what they are talking about. Its not all about how much dps u do in raid fx. Someone has to have highest dpsin raids. And since we have no buffs etc... as it has been explained .. and talking about that we can take hits.. what a joke... *lol*</p><p> (I even heard healers talking about how little dps they do.. It makes me wonder why h**L they are healers. )</p><p>I have 1 high lvl monk & 1 high lvl warlock. There is <font color="#ff0000">no </font>way I can take the same mobs with my Ranger..  OMG I can take out <font color="#3366ff">nameds</font> around my lvl with the warlock. Root dots etc.... heroics are np etc..</p><p>Try to do that with a Ranger.... I can continue and give different exampels forever....  I just think this diskussion is stupid... and I feel that ppl that dosent now our class shouldnt even say anything.</p><p> </p><p>And im even more looking forward to play Vanguard if this is gonna go on.</p><hr></blockquote>lol soo funny, rangers cant solo named??<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> was in damm sc yesterday saw this one lvl 60 ranger running around solo every damm named there was in there.... face it guys you were sooo overpowered it wasnt even funny, cant really see why you are surprised really.. is a damm reason why every1 and their alts is a ranger atm! But dont worry in a month or two you will see summoners cry just as much<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gareorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mrhanky wrote:<div></div>lol soo funny, rangers cant solo named??<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> was in damm sc yesterday saw this one lvl 60 ranger running around solo every damm named there was in there.... face it guys you were sooo overpowered it wasnt even funny, cant really see why you are surprised really.. is a damm reason why every1 and their alts is a ranger atm! But <font color="#ff3300">dont worry in a month or two you will see summoners cry just as much<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><hr></blockquote><p>/em [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] slaps Mrhanky</p><p>Like I said in another thread, they'll never stand for summors having decent dps either.  A Ranger solo'd every named in SC?  So, how long did it take the soloing Ranger to drop Arazul?</p>

[Deml]

<div></div><p>Just going to say a couple things here.</p><p>To the guy that made the comment about being a warlock and carrying multiple sets of gear around instead of arrows... I raid, multiple times a week.  My inventory consists of 3 sets of gear, about 4500 arrows and 20 different vials of poisons, if not more.  Do you really want to go down the road of comparing how much you carry vs what some of us carry around?</p><p>As for the big 4000 dps.  That was on BETA only.  It was done by lvl 70 rangers with 50 aa's and it was a <strong>BUG</strong>.  The only time anyone on live came anywhere close to those numbers was in Poet's Palace Return killing the scores of trash, with wizards/warlocks getting the same.  I've talked to wizards in my guild who pulled off 3500 dps casting 2 spells in those fights.  Don't take Beta as gospel of what is happening on live.</p><p>Were rangers overpowered on live between LU13 and LU20, yes.  Were we doing 4k dps all the time, not even close.  Rangers on raids were doing 800-1800 dps, depending on the ranger, CA levels and gear.</p>

[MegaDavidoff]

<div></div><p>Just to ansawer the other guy.</p><p>Nameds in SC... well first of all, the nameds in SC isnt the hardest.  (if it really was nameds) And the Ranger who did it... had great skill, no doubt about that. (if its even true)</p><p>And yes i also wonder how long that took.. not much u can do while kiting.. lol I mean there must have been pops during the time he was kiting fx.</p><p>But I can promisse u .. that <font color="#ff0000">any mage</font> .. esp. Conj. Would do it so much easier.</p><p> </p><p>If you havent tried the classes your are attacking, then please keep it to your self. Or get fact.</p>

[Shrike01]

<div></div><p>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....</p><p>We'll continue to work with procs until we're comfortable with how they function. To those crying doom and gloom for the Ranger class: Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be.</p><p>that is lame on a level I have never witnessed before....</p><p>this is worse than when you NERFED wizards and spellcasters, wait, now after you nerfed them you are nerfing scouts in order to make it a level playing feild again.  I can get incoherant babble.....  at work didnt want to have to deal with it here also.</p><p>here is a piece of advice SOE...</p><p>quit [Removed for Content] OFF poeple who give you money.  eventually they will stop.</p>

[Blaza]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Mrhanky wrote:<blockquote><hr>MegaDavidoff wrote:<p>I get so tired....</p><p>All different classes saying this and that about Ranger classes. In most cases they have <font color="#ff0000">no</font> idea what they are talking about. Its not all about how much dps u do in raid fx. Someone has to have highest dpsin raids. And since we have no buffs etc... as it has been explained .. and talking about that we can take hits.. what a joke... *lol*</p><p> (I even heard healers talking about how little dps they do.. It makes me wonder why h**L they are healers. )</p><p>I have 1 high lvl monk & 1 high lvl warlock. There is <font color="#ff0000">no </font>way I can take the same mobs with my Ranger..  OMG I can take out <font color="#3366ff">nameds</font> around my lvl with the warlock. Root dots etc.... heroics are np etc..</p><p>Try to do that with a Ranger.... I can continue and give different exampels forever....  I just think this diskussion is stupid... and I feel that ppl that dosent now our class shouldnt even say anything.</p><p> </p><p>And im even more looking forward to play Vanguard if this is gonna go on.</p><hr></blockquote>lol soo funny, rangers cant solo named??<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> was in damm sc yesterday saw this one lvl 60 ranger running around solo every damm named there was in there.... face it guys you were sooo overpowered it wasnt even funny, cant really see why you are surprised really.. is a damm reason why every1 and their alts is a ranger atm! But dont worry in a month or two you will see summoners cry just as much<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>What planet are you from?   We can't even solo a ^ heroic that's 5 lvls down, let alone SOLO A NAMED!</span><blockquote><span>Ranger facts:</span><span>Can't tank</span><span>Crap for armor</span><span>Crap for buffsCan barely solo a 3 mob encounter (normal, not heroic) unless they're more than 2 levels below40% of damage comes from poison that we pay out our @$$ forWe die just as much as casters ( there goes the repair cost argument)</span></blockquote>Only thing we have is DPS. and yes 4000dps is rediculous for anyone, but bottom line?  We should be the highest DPS in game because that's what rangers are....DPS, we're not utility, we don't have any healing ability, we get hit 3 times in a group encounter and we're getting rezed. I'm not saying that we should do 3x the dps as other DPS classes but we should be at the top( assasin too).Most important of all.... they said they could make changes in PvP without affecting PvE,  what a lie!  I havn't used slower weapons to increase my proc rate, I use the DPS rating (dmg/speed), and if I notice my DPS drop I'm going back to WoW to wait for Vanguard/end rant<span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Blazare on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:17 PM</span></p>

[GrayStorm]

<div></div><p>what I don't understand is... why is it SOOO hard to balance the dps?</p><p>They stated that Ranger, Assassin, Wizard and Warlock are the Tier 1 dps classes right?</p><p>So why can't they take out these 4 classes and have them beat on some mobs (with no resists) until they can balance it out... until similarly geared of all of the above are all cranking out roughly the same dps?  It's just starting to feel like they half-a55 their testing... like they're completely out of touch with the game itself. </p><p>It doesn't take a genius to see the crazy imbalance between these classes right now.</p>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Blazare wrote:<div></div><span><p>What planet are you from?   We can't even solo a ^ heroic that's 5 lvls down, let alone SOLO A NAMED!</span></p><p><span>Ranger facts:</span><span>Can't tank</span><span>Crap for armor</span><span>Crap for buffsCan barely solo a 3 mob encounter (normal, not heroic) unless they're more than 2 levels below40% of damage comes from poison that we pay out our @$$ forWe die just as much as casters ( there goes the repair cost argument)</p></span>Only thing we have is DPS. and yes 4000dps is rediculous for anyone, but bottom line?  We should be the highest DPS in game because that's what rangers are....DPS, we're not utility, we don't have any healing ability, we get hit 3 times in a group encounter and we're getting rezed. I'm not saying that we should do 3x the dps as other DPS classes but we should be at the top( assasin too).Most important of all.... they said they could make changes in PvP without affecting PvE,  what a lie!  I havn't used slower weapons to increase my proc rate, I use the DPS rating (dmg/speed), and if I notice my DPS drop I'm going back to WoW to wait for Vanguard/end rant<span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Blazare on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hate to burst your bubble here but you really need to learn how to play your ranger correctly.  Currently rangers, wizards, warlocks, conjurors, necros, coercers and illusionist can all easily solo ^^^ named mobs.  Only difference is how fast each class can do it.  Currently rangers can do it the fastest.</p><p>To the person talking about the ranger running around SC killing named.  Big deal if a wizard was there he could have done the same thing.  Just would have taken a bit longer for the kills.  Hell alot of classes could go around doing what you saw that ranger do.</p><p>If you can't solo a heroic do some research.  There is plenty of helpful threads around that can teach you things you don't know about your class.  To bad all of that becomes obsolete tomorrow.</p><p>Hey on the plus side rangers will be able to start those nice LU** and still no love for ranger threads.  They did work for the sorcers didn't they.</p><p> </p>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><p>Hate to burst your bubble here but you really need to learn how to play your ranger correctly.  Currently rangers, wizards, warlocks, conjurors, necros, coercers and illusionist can all easily <font color="#ffff00">solo ^^^ named mobs</font>.  Only difference is how fast each class can do it.  Currently rangers can do it the fastest.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#99ff99">^^^ <em>named</em> in PP?   I'm a pretty good soloer, but the named in PP?  Nah. Maybe a green con ^^^ <em>named, </em>or even blue if its the right kind of mob and you have LOTS of room to work in without adds. But generally, my solo skills cap out at a blue <em>non-named</em> heroic. :smileywink:But then again, maybe you are a much better soloer than I.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">*edit* had to remove an extra R or two.</font></p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:58 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:58 PM</span></p>

[Blaza]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><div></div><span><p>What planet are you from?   We can't even solo a ^ heroic that's 5 lvls down, let alone SOLO A NAMED!</p></span><p></p><p><span>Ranger facts:</span><span>Can't tank</span><span>Crap for armor</span><span>Crap for buffsCan barely solo a 3 mob encounter (normal, not heroic) unless they're more than 2 levels below40% of damage comes from poison that we pay out our @$$ forWe die just as much as casters ( there goes the repair cost argument)</span></p>Only thing we have is DPS. and yes 4000dps is rediculous for anyone, but bottom line?  We should be the highest DPS in game because that's what rangers are....DPS, we're not utility, we don't have any healing ability, we get hit 3 times in a group encounter and we're getting rezed. I'm not saying that we should do 3x the dps as other DPS classes but we should be at the top( assasin too).Most important of all.... they said they could make changes in PvP without affecting PvE,  what a lie!  I havn't used slower weapons to increase my proc rate, I use the DPS rating (dmg/speed), and if I notice my DPS drop I'm going back to WoW to wait for Vanguard/end rant<span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Blazare on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hate to burst your bubble here but you really need to learn how to play your ranger correctly.  Currently rangers, wizards, warlocks, conjurors, necros, coercers and illusionist can all easily solo ^^^ named mobs.  Only difference is how fast each class can do it.  Currently rangers can do it the fastest.</p><p>To the person talking about the ranger running around SC killing named.  Big deal if a wizard was there he could have done the same thing.  Just would have taken a bit longer for the kills.  Hell alot of classes could go around doing what you saw that ranger do.</p><p>If you can't solo a heroic do some research.  There is plenty of helpful threads around that can teach you things you don't know about your class.  To bad all of that becomes obsolete tomorrow.</p><p>Hey on the plus side rangers will be able to start those nice LU** and still no love for ranger threads.  They did work for the sorcers didn't they.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>You obviously have never played a ranger so go away.  Sorry I don't have a L1337 alt to finance getting fabled gear and master 1 everything at every label.  The average player will be dead before getting a named down to orange, unless the mob is  9-10 levels lower.  So get a clue, and if you want to argue this point level a ranger to at least 13 and try to take on a named in antonica... after you die everytime come back and tell us how to play our class.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Blazare on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:51 PM</span></p>

[The Ban]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Blazare wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><div></div><span><p>What planet are you from?   We can't even solo a ^ heroic that's 5 lvls down, let alone SOLO A NAMED!</p></span><p></p><p><span>Ranger facts:</span><span>Can't tank</span><span>Crap for armor</span><span>Crap for buffsCan barely solo a 3 mob encounter (normal, not heroic) unless they're more than 2 levels below40% of damage comes from poison that we pay out our @$$ forWe die just as much as casters ( there goes the repair cost argument)</span></p>Only thing we have is DPS. and yes 4000dps is rediculous for anyone, but bottom line?  We should be the highest DPS in game because that's what rangers are....DPS, we're not utility, we don't have any healing ability, we get hit 3 times in a group encounter and we're getting rezed. I'm not saying that we should do 3x the dps as other DPS classes but we should be at the top( assasin too).Most important of all.... they said they could make changes in PvP without affecting PvE,  what a lie!  I havn't used slower weapons to increase my proc rate, I use the DPS rating (dmg/speed), and if I notice my DPS drop I'm going back to WoW to wait for Vanguard/end rant<span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Blazare on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:17 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hate to burst your bubble here but you really need to learn how to play your ranger correctly.  Currently rangers, wizards, warlocks, conjurors, necros, coercers and illusionist can all easily solo ^^^ named mobs.  Only difference is how fast each class can do it.  Currently rangers can do it the fastest.</p><p>To the person talking about the ranger running around SC killing named.  Big deal if a wizard was there he could have done the same thing.  Just would have taken a bit longer for the kills.  Hell alot of classes could go around doing what you saw that ranger do.</p><p>If you can't solo a heroic do some research.  There is plenty of helpful threads around that can teach you things you don't know about your class.  To bad all of that becomes obsolete tomorrow.</p><p>Hey on the plus side rangers will be able to start those nice LU** and still no love for ranger threads.  They did work for the sorcers didn't they.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>You obviously have never played a ranger so go away.  Sorry I don't have a L1337 alt to finance getting fabled gear and master 1 everything at every label.  The average player will be dead before getting a named down to orange, unless the mob is  9-10 levels lower.  So get a clue, and if you want to argue this point level a ranger to at least 13 and try to take on a named in antonica... after you die everytime come back and tell us how to play our class.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Blazare on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:51 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>My ranger is only 26 with 4 adept 1's and the rest app 1's. I solod a lvl 29 ^^^ named giant with no fabled, 1 legendary and mostly app 1 skills. I think you just need to learn how to play the class a little better. It's reall not that hard to do what I just said. All you have to do is keep  him snared and run around in circles shooting him.

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<div></div><p>Hate to burst your bubble here but you really need to learn how to play your ranger correctly.  Currently rangers, wizards, warlocks, conjurors, necros, coercers and illusionist can all easily <font color="#ffff00">solo ^^^ named mobs</font>.  Only difference is how fast each class can do it.  Currently rangers can do it the fastest.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#99ff99">^^^ <em>named</em> in PP?   I'm a pretty good soloer, but the named in PP?  Nah. Maybe a green con ^^^ <em>named, </em>or even blue if its the right kind of mob and you have LOTS of room to work in without adds. But generally, my solo skills cap out at a blue <em>non-named</em> heroic. :smileywink:But then again, maybe you are a much better soloer than I.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">*edit* had to remove an extra R or two.</font></p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:58 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:58 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>This person was smoking crack pretty hardcore when they made this post. Please dismiss it.

[Sunjaguar]

<div></div><div></div>Regarding the Vanguard Rangers Post earlier: What a great post, that says it all really. SOE knows, I'm sure, that a very large crowd of their players will leave en masse for Vanguard. With nerfs like this that make our class non-enjoyable there is not doubt they solidify that migration.<p>Message Edited by Sunjaguar on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:45 AM</span></p>

[mill94]

this whole "They should increase other classes dps!" arguement is pretty stupid.The counter arguement goes "that will make this easy game easier".And then you guys reply "well then, increase mob hps!"You do realize that by universally increasing all mobs hps,etc, and keeping your ablities constant, that is the exact same thing as a nerf, only with bigger numbers appearing over the mobs head?<div></div>

[TizZle]

<div></div><p>Encounter Parsed: a propulsion sentinel (Level 60 epic x 4)</p><p>Total Damage Received: 417,072</p><p>Encounter Duration: 1m 34s</p><p>Total Damage Inflicted: 100,586               Damage Per Second: 1070</p><p>Poison Damage:                     31,897</p><p>Quick Shot Damage:              20,628</p><p>Stream Arrow Shot Damage: 12,077  </p><p>Sniper Shot Damage:              8,195</p><p>Auto Attack Damage:               3,945</p><p>Bow Proc Damage:                 3,900     </p><p>Prismatic Shard:                      3,809</p><p>Culling the Weak:                     3,340</p><p>Triple Arrow:                             2,731</p><p>Precise Shot:                            2,608</p><p>Remaining Skills:                      7,459</p><p>This is a parse from one of our rangers in our guild which states that the declining perodic poison damage is 32% of the damage made on this parse. She states that though the damage numbers are not typical the % of damage is.</p><p>Not really knowing the ranger class here is my question: "Is the periodic poison damage the only thing that is getting nerfed?"</p><p>If so you "should" still retain 68%(or so based upon your longer recast time for some CA's) of your astounding DPS and that is if damage from periodic poison is 0.</p><p>If that is not the case which other numbers will be lowered from the parse above.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#99ff99">OK, let's list all possible procs that could/will be nerfed...PoisonPrismatic StrikeOffensive stance proc (thats quick shot)Imbued weapon ProcLegendary/Fabled special weapon procan armor that Procs an attackthe scout shield that procs on an attackany caster proc buff that procs on our melee (<3 love for conj here)ummm, lets see, what am i missing.......</font></p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:42 PM</span></p>

[TofuPatty]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>TizZle wrote:<div></div><p>Not really knowing the ranger class here is my question: "Is the periodic poison damage the only thing that is getting nerfed?"</p><p>If so you "should" still retain 68%(or so based upon your longer recast time for some CA's) of your astounding DPS and that is if damage from periodic poison is 0.</p><p>If that is not the case which other numbers will be lowered from the parse above.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>From this parse, the proc nerf will affect:</p><p>Poison Damage:                     31,897</p><p>Quick Shot Damage:              20,628</p><p>Bow Proc Damage:                 3,900     </p><p>Prismatic Shard:                      3,809 (actually this won't be affected, melee weapons proccing from bows was removed a while ago, the parse must be from before this)</p><p>Possibly some other the Remaining Skills as well if they were proc buffs provided from the group setup.</p><p>So 60,234 out of 100,586 or 59.9% of the DPS in this parse, and she is absolutely right that the % of damage procs do is the norm.  On the low end of my parses, about 50% of dps is from procs, on the high end about 65%, with the general trend being around 58-60%.  Proc damage will of course not drop to 0, but will drop massively.  What is so concerning to rangers is that this will be a huge drop in dps, our combat arts don't do very much damage in and of themselves.  Procless we do about the same damage as bruisers and monks.</p>

[BedlamX]

<span><blockquote><hr>TofuPatty wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>TizZle wrote:<div></div><p>Not really knowing the ranger class here is my question: "Is the periodic poison damage the only thing that is getting nerfed?"</p><p>If so you "should" still retain 68%(or so based upon your longer recast time for some CA's) of your astounding DPS and that is if damage from periodic poison is 0.</p><p>If that is not the case which other numbers will be lowered from the parse above.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>From this parse, the proc nerf will affect:</p><p>Poison Damage:                     31,897</p><p>Quick Shot Damage:              20,628</p><p>Bow Proc Damage:                 3,900     </p><p>Prismatic Shard:                      3,809 (actually this won't be affected, melee weapons proccing from bows was removed a while ago, the parse must be from before this)</p><p>Possibly some other the Remaining Skills as well if they were proc buffs provided from the group setup.</p><p>So 60,234 out of 100,586 or 59.9% of the DPS in this parse, and she is absolutely right that the % of damage procs do is the norm.  On the low end of my parses, about 50% of dps is from procs, on the high end about 65%, with the general trend being around 58-60%.  Proc damage will of course not drop to 0, but will drop massively.  What is so concerning to rangers is that this will be a huge drop in dps, our combat arts don't do very much damage in and of themselves.  Procless we do about the same damage as bruisers and monks.</p><hr></blockquote></span>I could'nt agree with you more. But lets not forget that we bring practally nothing to a group after this. Its been said a thousand times Pathfining get's canceled by the Bards speed buff and any other scout that is a higher lvl. Disarm traps  Ha Ha any class can now do this the Devs took that away from us. Evac is nothing but a quick ride to the front door for Lazy people, other classes have this and since there is no shard loss with death no sense in using it in combat while in a group. After this nerf evac will be my most used spell since my dmg wont be enough to kill a thing solo. Rangers are so upset because we cant do anything else.My List of nerfs:Shooting Bows while running....I am susposed to be an expert with the bow why cant I be moving while shooting?Mob run speed was increased...This was done to stop the ranger from getting off more than 2 shots before engaging in close combatCasting times were increased to slow the ranger down.....I guess speeding up the mob wasnt enough.Stream of Arows will not fire point blank. Again the ranger is an expert with the bow why cant I shoot this way.... The CA still roots me with no quick way of              canceling it.  So we just stand there for a few sec while we get hit trying to cancel it.Poisons only procing on the primary weapon.......another way of slowing us down.I am sure there are more but I am out of energy feel free to add the ones I missedCripes SOE why did you even create a Ranger Class its so obvious that you dont care for them by the way you have decapitated them.BedlamX

[LokiHellsson]

I'll try my Ranger with the new proc system. If I don't like it, I'll just play my Warlock or Wizard or Bruiser or Necro instead.The pendulum swings at SoE...too far one way, then too far in the other direction, and eventually it settles in the middle.

[Trollb]

<div></div><p>lol.</p><p>For every thing turn turn turn, there is a season, turn turn turn, and a time for every purpose under heaven. LOLOLOL.</p><p>/wookieroar</p><p>methinks you need a case of vasoline, especially if you rolled a ranger just to be a tier 1 dps that can kite nearly anything in the game, have as much utility as every other rogue, and wear chain armor to boot (vs those poor casters that wear cloth and are the 2 punch clowns of the game!) LOL.</p>

[Trollb]

<div>i have to agree with Blackguard. Ranger can solo blue heroics. Ranger wears heavy armor. Ranger has as much utility as the other rogues.</div><div> </div><div>I predict that if sony does what it should, it will eventually be;</div><div> </div><div>DPS casters top dps 1</div><div> </div><div>rogues/assasins next tier 2</div><div> </div><div>pet casters tier 2.5</div><div> </div><div>rangers and light tanks 3 with rangers toward the top end</div><div> </div><div>tanks/healers last tier 4</div><div> </div><div>There is no way that rangers should be able to solo what they do, have the utility that they do, have the armor that they do, AND the dps they do.</div><div> </div><div>The cost of arrows; perhaps they will add AA so that rangers can make their own arrows for cheaper.</div>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><font color="#99ff99">Aparently NOT a rogue. LOL Tell my raid leaders that his Rangers have the same utility as the two Brigands we have been is desperate search of, or that of our Swashies. You know what he will say..."No, we keep the Rangers in the raid for the DPS"Educating yourself before you alienated yourself <em>might </em>have been a good idea.</font>

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<div>i have to agree with Blackguard. Ranger can solo blue heroics. Ranger wears heavy armor. Ranger has as much utility as the other rogues.</div><div> </div><div>I predict that if sony does what it should, it will eventually be;</div><div> </div><div>DPS casters top dps 1</div><div> </div><div>rogues/assasins next tier 2</div><div> </div><div>pet casters tier 2.5</div><div> </div><div>rangers and light tanks 3 with rangers toward the top end</div><div> </div><div>tanks/healers last tier 4</div><div> </div><div>There is no way that rangers should be able to solo what they do, have the utility that they do, have the armor that they do, AND the dps they do.</div><div> </div><div>The cost of arrows; perhaps they will add AA so that rangers can make their own arrows for cheaper.</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, my heavy armor and great utility more then make up for the cost of arrows. /sarcasmWe can only wear med armor, arrows are summoned and we have NO utility."Trollboy" aptly named.

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>TrigunVash wrote:<div>wizards/warlocks = dont have to pay every god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bit of cash they have for poisons and arrows, sit and click spells FTWwizard/warlocks = group buffs that add to groups overall dpsranger = pathfinding FTWranger = gimped</div><hr></blockquote>Wizard/Warlocks = no ability to increase DPS simply by spending extra cashWizard/Warlocks = </span><span>lack of self/group/directed buffs which aid caster DPS</span><span>*shrug* depends on your PoV</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:32 AM</span></p>

[MegaDavidoff]

<div></div>LOL that trollboy really now the game :smileyvery-happy: OMG hahaha *rofl* (I fell of my chair reading it)

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div>No doubt

[Deml]

<div>WIzards and warlocks don't pay for things to increase their dps, you're right.  What you're failing to remember is that Rangers using poison is CALCULATED as part of our overall DPS.  We are <strong>expected</strong> to use poisons, which we have to pay for.  It's not a bonus to add to what we can already do, it's expected that we use it to do what we actually do.</div><div> </div><div>Rangers do not wear heavy armor.  We are not tanks, do not buff and have no where near the utility of rogues.  Ask a rogue, they tell you their primary role is to debuff with a little dps on the side.</div><div> </div><div>As for soloing named, the comment about soloing named in PP is correct.  I could easily solo the 2nd floor cyclops and eyeball, would actually have more trouble with the groups of cyclops before the named than I would with either one of those two.  Will I be doing that after today?  Not likely.  Won't even try till I'm bored at 70.</div>

[MaghodienStarund]

<div>Since when can we not run and shoot?</div><div> </div><div>Ive always ran and used my AutoAttack</div>

[Deml]

<div></div>You can run and use autoattack but they were referring to using combat arts on the run.  That has basically been completely removed for us now so we can only snare, run off while autoattack is on, stop and fire, run, stop fire, run stop, fire, etc and hope we can do that till the mob dies.  Too bad snares don't last as long as some of those skill refreshes.

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Demlar wrote:<div>WIzards and warlocks don't pay for things to increase their dps, you're right.  What you're failing to remember is that Rangers using poison is CALCULATED as part of our overall DPS.  We are <strong>expected</strong> to use poisons, which we have to pay for.  It's not a bonus to add to what we can already do, it's expected that we use it to do what we actually do.</div><div> </div><div>Rangers do not wear heavy armor.  We are not tanks, do not buff and have no where near the utility of rogues.  Ask a rogue, they tell you their primary role is to debuff with a little dps on the side.</div><hr></blockquote>Again, it's a matter of prespective.  The increased DPS from poisons may be expected, but it also means that your class is seen as more valuable because of that potential DPS (this is obvious or else you would not be expected to use it!).  It wasn't that you were forced to use it to be on par with others, it had put you AHEAD of the rest of the pack, thus constituting a bonus.  Post-nerf tho, we'll see what this all means, and I will fully support an increase in CA damage if it looks like Rangers will fall behind other classes even with poison.I know most people don't agree with me, but I dislike a narrow definition of utility as it is always twisted to be used by people to prove one point or another.  For me, anything that aids the group is utility in one form or another.  More precisely, abilities that allow you, or anyone else in group to do their job better is utility - so even Ranger self-buffs fall into this category.  What's the difference really between increasing your own DPS or someone else's?  How is one "utility" and the other not?  You are increasing group efficiency, end of story.(In fact, it may be argued that self-buffs are more valuable as they translate from solo to group without a hitch, whereas many "utility" based spells have diminished benefits to a solo player.)</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:20 PM</span></p>

[King Leor]

<div>HAHA, Blazare and Dirtgirl, Crychtonn know EXACTLY what he is talking about and happens to be a ranger so ya cant say try and go play one as he has and does. Rangers (preLU 20) can solo ANY ^^^ heroic encounter with ease, (even grouped ones with thorny trap of course). About the only one that we cant solo is the creature of beauty in PP, And dirtgirl he was talking about SC for one and NOT PP, but seeing as you mentioned it I figured I would talk about how easy it is. Of course all this wont be easy anymore with thte horrid changes being put in place. So theres time for one last glory post to say YES!!! WE COULD SOLO ANY HEROIC ENCOUNTER IN THE GAME. and nit could be done naked with only a bow and weps (assuming they procced pre lu19). Cuz gear sure didn't matter that much. It increased out dmg slightly but as long as we are using stun poisons anything is cake. SO ya, I would say crychtonn is a much better soloer than you dirtgirl if you cant solo heroics post lvl 55.</div><div> </div><div>Leoric</div><div>Level 60 ranger</div>

[Sokolov]

Yep, prior to last night, my ranger was wearing level 20 gear (except her bow and poisons) until level 45.  There was little point in upgrading.<div></div>

[CrimsonValerian]

<div></div><p>If you guys can solo poets palace then why the griping about the nerf?  That's mega overpowered, when you state that you can drop ^^^ white, yellow heroics you're doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire. </p><p>On the other hand, from what i've been reading about parsing numbers if 55% of your dps is from procs and poisons, thats a developer screwup for damm sure.</p><p>And on the other blood-covered hand, the arrow issue is stupid, go play final fantasy with a ranger and see how much you bang out for arrows, and there are no local vendors to buy npc arrows from in that game, player crafted only.  My assassin doesnt go through as many arrows as you but as many poisons for sure, dropping a regular 2 plat a day to keep him outfitted.</p><p>As i stated in another post i don't agree with your dps being dropped around my dirges dps, and hope to see a quick fix for this.</p><p>/Predator hug from the other Predator</p>

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Demlar wrote:<div>WIzards and warlocks don't pay for things to increase their dps, you're right.  What you're failing to remember is that Rangers using poison is CALCULATED as part of our overall DPS.  We are <strong>expected</strong> to use poisons, which we have to pay for.  It's not a bonus to add to what we can already do, it's expected that we use it to do what we actually do.</div><div> </div><div>Rangers do not wear heavy armor.  We are not tanks, do not buff and have no where near the utility of rogues.  Ask a rogue, they tell you their primary role is to debuff with a little dps on the side.</div><hr></blockquote>Again, it's a matter of prespective.  The increased DPS from poisons may be expected, but it also means that your class is seen as more valuable because of that potential DPS (this is obvious or else you would not be expected to use it!).  It wasn't that you were forced to use it to be on par with others, it had put you AHEAD of the rest of the pack, thus constituting a bonus.  Post-nerf tho, we'll see what this all means, and I will fully support an increase in CA damage if it looks like Rangers will fall behind other classes even with poison.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:20 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sokolov: BG made a post recently that said that Rangers are still in T1 as long as poisons are being used. Without poisons, we fall to T2. (others have said they played and it went to T3). This is what Dem is talking about. We have to purchase poisons to GET to T1. It is that we are forced to buy it to get to our tier and BG said that himself.

[Guy De Alsace]

I play a 60 Ranger and not too expertly (i'm slow OK). I've never seen a Ranger solo a white and higher heroic, ever. Myself I've managed to solo a green named heroic once or twice but the field of battle has to be just right to do it. No aggro mobs, plenty of room to move about, mob has no ranged stun etc etc...What people are saying is that we have nothing at all except DPS to bring to a group. Its like healers having their heals reduced, Bards losing some of their many buffs, Guardians having the strength of their taunts reduced or mit taken away. Its our class defining role that may have been reduced by as much as 55% (going on some estimates). I'd hate to have a healer with a heal that did 1,000 hp heal get reduced to a 450 point heal.Personally I think Rangers should be doing slightly higher DPS than Wizards and Warlocks to compensate for their buffing ability. Chain Armour in my experience does make a difference in our survivability but thats something all scouts get so its not exclusive to Rangers.<div></div>

[Trollb]

<div></div><p>"my heavy armor and great utility more then make up for the cost of arrows. /sarcasmWe can only wear med armor, arrows are summoned and we have NO utility."</p><p>Yes, so chain armor isnt any good at all; just wear cloth.</p><p>Arrows being "so costly" was never and has never been an excuse to make a class the "most leet" of them all.</p><p>No utility whatsoever; you have equal utility to every other rogue (omg not the 20 second swash mez, omg!).</p><p>Oh and I notice you AVOID the fact that you solo better than every other scout class... oops, must have missed that fact. Rangers, can solo better than every other rogue, thus are NOT should NOT, and should NEVER HAVE BEEN tier 1 dps.</p><p>Ranger was FOTM for so long, and i am frankly tickled pink at all the crying.</p>

[Mirdo]

<div>Still here Trollboy? Please, take your obvious class envy and trolling posts elsewhere - along with your seeming lack of knowledge of virtually every other scout class.</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div><div> </div>

[Trollb]

<div></div><div></div><p>"Still here Trollboy? Please, take your obvious class envy and trolling posts elsewhere - along with your seeming lack of knowledge of virtually every other scout class."</p><p>Lets evaluate what rangers have and measure why they were nerfed;</p><p>Chain armor- better than even light tanks get!</p><p>Soloability the likes of which makes all other scouts jaws drop. Swash/brigs/predators struggle with just blues, until they are in a group.</p><p>Utility- virtually the same as the other rogue and predator with VERY minor differences!</p><p>The reality is that the rogue/predator classes really arent all that different in terms of utility, so justifying how rangers get to hold the mantle for dps AND soloing at all levels is just completely and unquestionably unfathomable.</p><p>SOE did the right thing by balancing the class. But because I know you cant see that through the tears; here is a tissue.</p><p>Message Edited by Trollboy on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:43 AM</span></p>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><div></div><div>Again you are wrong on so many counts. Know any Brigands that solo Poet's palace? I do.</div><div> </div><div>Show me how a predator is equal in utility to any other Rogue.</div><div> </div><div>You have had a serious case of class envy and are now just here to troll. Your motives are transparent and your 'arguments' flawed - stick to learning to play your own class before even attempting to assess the impact of game mechanic changes on another.</div><div> </div><div>Oh and I just checked your posting history - you have even been corrected in your own Swashbuckler forums for not knowing how to solo effectively and making erroneous statements about that class - your main.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway, I'm not feeding this particular Troll anymoe - just skipping your ill-informed nonsensical posts.</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Mirdo on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:54 PM</span></p>

[klepp]

<div></div><p>yea whoever was in game since yesterday.. knows we... now.. basically.. suck.. alot. i play to have fun.. and this isnt fun anymore =/  ironic, this morning i logged ina nd about 6 folks were lfg... 3 rangers a few casters and a healer.   I checked about 10 mins later... and guess who was lfg... the 3 rangers =p</p><p>cant even solo [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anymore.   Think we got the biggest nerf out of any class ever.   I think 50% damage reduction is an understatement, they even took away some of our "utility" if thats what you'd call it! </p><p>I cant express my distaste without alot of cuss words..</p>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Cronon wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Demlar wrote:<div>WIzards and warlocks don't pay for things to increase their dps, you're right.  What you're failing to remember is that Rangers using poison is CALCULATED as part of our overall DPS.  We are <strong>expected</strong> to use poisons, which we have to pay for.  It's not a bonus to add to what we can already do, it's expected that we use it to do what we actually do.</div><div> </div><div>Rangers do not wear heavy armor.  We are not tanks, do not buff and have no where near the utility of rogues.  Ask a rogue, they tell you their primary role is to debuff with a little dps on the side.</div><hr></blockquote>Again, it's a matter of prespective.  The increased DPS from poisons may be expected, but it also means that your class is seen as more valuable because of that potential DPS (this is obvious or else you would not be expected to use it!).  It wasn't that you were forced to use it to be on par with others, it had put you AHEAD of the rest of the pack, thus constituting a bonus.  Post-nerf tho, we'll see what this all means, and I will fully support an increase in CA damage if it looks like Rangers will fall behind other classes even with poison.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:20 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sokolov: BG made a post recently that said that Rangers are still in T1 as long as poisons are being used. Without poisons, we fall to T2. (others have said they played and it went to T3). This is what Dem is talking about. We have to purchase poisons to GET to T1. It is that we are forced to buy it to get to our tier and BG said that himself.<hr></blockquote>I believe I made it clear I was speaking about conditions prior to the nerf which contributed to the decision to fix procs, as well as addressed the post-nerf situation.  My point still stands.In any case I do not believe Demlar was discussing post-nerf specifically, but generally and attempting to address both, as I have.  But think what you want.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:23 AM</span></p>

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>Trollboy wrote:<div></div><p>Rangers, can solo better than every other rogue, thus are NOT should NOT, and should NEVER HAVE BEEN tier 1 dps.</p><hr></blockquote>So your argument has changed from "I don't know what I'm talking about" to.. "The devs don't know what they're talking about" ? Is that correct? Devs said PRE LU13 that all preds should have been tier 1 DPS. Tell us your ingame name and and server...please?

[Jagdwol]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lord of the Arctic wrote:<div></div>Seems the good days for us Rangers are gone <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47956#M47956<div></div><hr size="2" width="100%">While not doing anything about this bug would be preferable to some, we cannot ignore the progressively more significant effect it is having as the game evolves. Fixing this issue will help bring many of the classes back into their intended range of damage output as we discussed around the time of LU13 and the combat revamp.Keep in mind that if you play a melee class but don't rely on a slow weapon to generate extra procs, this fix should have little impact on your style of play.<font color="#999999">Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#999999"></font><hr></blockquote>So if this was a bug and people actively talked about how to exploit said bug "IE best weapons for the job etc etc" How come there are not mass bannings taking place for those people exploiting said bug?

[Morphysi]

<div></div><p>No doubt, the beating of this dead horse will lead to not, however even voices in the void can be supplicated by sharing.</p><p>I understand the goal by S.O.E. to find game balance. And you'll never please us all, no matter what you alter.</p><p>I'm *assuming* the ultimate goal is to make the game as fun as it can be for all the different playing styles. What I have noticed, is that there seems to be a pretty strong lean towards forcing players to group in order to find any real success in the game.</p><p>Yes, all of the class combo's can solo, there are plenty of green and blues that you can fight and maybe, just maybe, some day, you gain enough xp off those battles to get that coveted next level. But here's my beef with that....</p><p>There is a large host of gamers who love the game but don't have the time it takes to find/create/organize a group every time they play. And some just love the solo play, even in a world full of other live players. But ever time you have a successful class, who can solo and actually have fun doing so, they get the <you-know-what> nerfed out of them. It happened to Wizard and now the Ranger. Oh, it's not all doom and gloom, but the with each nerf, the fun factor drains a bit more, making it so now ALL classes have the joy of wading through peanut butter in an effort to evolve their toon.</p><p>Soon, enough joy will be sucked out of the game, and that lovely mediocrity of *balance* will be found that people will just move on to the next game.</p><p>My suggestion (cuz I hate rants without real feedback) is that fair focus be given to those who love to solo (or only have that hour here and there) so that this doesn't turn into EQ1 where it's group or don't bother playing.</p><p>Set the procs back to the way they were when you're alone and apply the new settings as soon as you group.</p><p>Good hunting and good luck,</p><p>-Morph</p>

[Sokolov]

Invariably, people say this:It's not about DPS, we just want fun.What does "fun" mean?  Oddly enough, typically the fun classes are ones that do DPS (Pre-nerf Rangers and Conjurors).  Nerfs (which usually relate to DPS) are always described as "sucking the fun out."  Even healers like Templars describe their class as unfun and Furies fun because Furies have more DPS.So DPS = fun?  In which case then balance does equal "unfun" and "mediocrity," as no one will have the "fun class" of better DPS than most classes when balance is acheived.  It also follows that even balance struck by increasing DPS for everyone until they are all equal will be unfun.So what should the devs do if balance is preceived as boring?Really, I am just trying to understand what I am preceiving to be contradictory/illogical statements.<div></div>

[Grimme]

<div></div><p>Ok this is silly. Everyone knows the power contained in Gandalfs nostril hairs alone would beat down Legolas or Aragorn, how about both at the same time. We're talking wizards man. Rangers < Wizards in the whole take things down department. But don't ask a wizard to get you through the woods on time.</p><p>Ok, rangers got the nerf, we get it. So what. So we all get nerfed eventually, if we didn't the game would not be what it currently is - a great fricking game! And if they got too nerfed, they will eventually get unnerfed a bit. It is how mmorpgs work (well, the ones that ever HAVE updates).</p><p>I for one will make sure every group I make for the next month has at least one or two rangers in it (provided I can find 2). I'm not kidding. Rangers are still cool, they are just not the fotm.</p><p> </p>

[Morphysi]

<div></div><p>You missed my point Sokolov.</p><p>For some fun might equal DPS, but not for others. Fun is translated differently for each player. I've a friend who loves the healer, and that's all. For ME, fun equals being able to have an ejoyable amount of success with a character without the need for grouping every time I get on line. This *was* possible for the Ranger class pre-LU20. They were hardly invincible, but it wasn't the knock-down, drag-out battle like my Mystic goes though just to eak out a few xp points. Followed by time spent healing and medding up. That is NOT my idea of a fun solo game experience.</p><p>For me, it's simple.</p><p>Rangers pre-LU20 = fun solo class to play.</p><p>Rangers post-LU20 = not fun solo class to play.</p><p>Interpret fun however you want, this is my interpretation.</p><p>I'll either complete have to adjust my tactics or not play that class as much (just like my Wiz, pre & post LU16... er, I think it was 16... you know the mega-combat change).</p>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><div></div>I don;t really think I missed your point nor was I really disagreeing with you, I just think it's ironic that even tho we both say DPS is not the same as fun, typically people end up describing classes with good DPS as fun.Even I felt pretty powerful soloing orange heroics as a Ranger before the nerf and earning XP significantly faster doing so than in a group, it WAS fun.   Now I can't mostly because I can't do enough DPS between kiting rounds.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:14 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class="date_text">02-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:17 PM</span></p>

[Morphysi]

<div>I appreicate the response. I guess after all it doesn't matter much anyway. I don't feel compelled to play EQ2 much now anyway.</div><div> </div><div>Laters.</div>