A word from Blackguard re: procs

[Sulas]

Comment is here: <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47745#M47745">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47745#M47745</a>Quote:We'll continue to work with procs until we're comfortable with how they function. To those crying doom and gloom for the Ranger class: Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be.If you want further clarification on the proc changes we've been making, especially the first one, read on.As you know, there are many weapons in game that proc extra damage when they land an attack in combat (for example, imbued crafted weapons). In order to ensure that no style of weapon was more likely to proc than any other, we base a weapon's chance to proc on its delay. In other words, a slower weapon has a higher chance to proc because it lands fewer attacks; a faster weapon has a lower chance to proc on each hit because it lands its attacks more often. This keeps dual-wield, one-handed, and two-handed weapons on par with each other in their chance to proc.Some buffs also provide a chance to proc extra damage on a successful attack. Because we even out the proc chance based on delay, such buffs work equally well regardless of weapon type.These buffs also have a chance to proc via combat arts. However, there is a bug on the live servers in that the proc chance for combat arts was also being calculated based on the delay of whatever weapon was equipped. Some players have been using this to their advantage by deliberately equipping slow weapons in order to give their fast-casting combat arts a better chance to proc.As of Live Update #20, combat arts will base their chance to trigger a proc on the casting time of the art itself. Weapon delay will no longer affect any combat art's chance to trigger a proc.Certain classes will feel the effects of this change more than others. Scouts (especially rangers) were more likely to benefit from this bug than other melee classes, which contributed to scout damage being higher overall than it should have been--especially in relation to mages.While no class likes to see a reduction in the damage it does, the alternative would be to not only increase the damage output of other classes to compensate, but also to proportionately increase the health pools of NPCs to account for this rise in player damage. The second option would involve a lot more changes and would be prone to introducing other imbalances into the game.While not doing anything about this bug would be preferable to some, we cannot ignore the progressively more significant effect it is having as the game evolves. Fixing this issue will help bring many of the classes back into their intended range of damage output as we discussed around the time of LU13 and the combat revamp.Keep in mind that if you play a melee class but don't rely on a slow weapon to generate extra procs, this fix should have little impact on your style of play.<font color="#999999">Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</font><div></div>

[Fennir]

Well I'm not quitting, but I bet a lot of fair-weather rangers will.Hold on as long as you can, summoners!<div></div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><div>Not more the 30 minutes after I post my theory on 'normaliztion' and I'm right.  Too bad that' the worst possible thing that could happen.  The only way it can get worse is if they gave us a pink robe and told us we get 6 different colorful versions of 'Magic Missle' instead of a bow and arrow.  lol <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Falcon</div><div>60 Ranger</div><div>Kithicor</div>

[Taubin]

lmfao<span><blockquote><hr>leafnin wrote:<div></div><div>Not more the 30 minutes after I post my theory on 'normaliztion' and I'm right.  Too bad that' the worst possible thing that could happen.  The only way it can get worse is if they gave us a pink robe and told us we get 6 different colorful versions of 'Magic Missle' instead of a bow and arrow.  lol <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Falcon</div><div>60 Ranger</div><div>Kithicor</div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Smi]

I guess this makes me a "fair-weather" (level 60 and playing for almost a year) ranger:You have cancelled your subscription. Thank you for your patronage.<div></div>

[Vimy]

Ouch.  <span>:smileysad:</span>I knew something was coming, but this?I don't want to go back to the pre-LU13 days.  I don't want to be LFG for an hour because I'm no use to a group.I still hope that it isn't as bad as it sounds.  'cause it sounds very bad.<div></div>

[Fennir]

I'm stocking up on low DD high DoT poisons.  Will probably help a lot when these changes go live.Sting of Virulence is best T6 legendary I've seen, for anyone else interested.<div></div>

[Incedio]

<div></div><p>Well, if their true goal is to normalize us to the same standard as all of the other T1 classes then I personally am fine with that. If they screw up that normalization and make us sub par to the other T1 DPS classes then there are going to be problems.</p><p>I guess I am leveling a Ranger at the perfect time because I never knew how good Stream was and I will never see how good a level 60 Ranger does in DPS pre-rebalance. So, for me these changes aren't that big of a deal.</p><p>However, if this turns into the same situation that Rangers faced when SOE launched Kunark where Rangers were completely shuned from groups due to their low DPS and their crappy survivability then I will have an issue with this change.</p><p> </p><p>The one thing that confuses me is how the heck can the Devs justify that we lost melee weapon procs from bows because it didn't make any sense and yet rings procing off of an arrow hit does make sense?</p>

[Smi]

Interesting point fennir.  These changes basically completely change the way poisons should be approached.  I guess use a high DOT poison, then Auto attack until it procs, then switch to kiting?  This is so depressingly stupid.<div></div>

[Vacan]

<div></div><p>I never got to use the combat arts as they are either. I just want to say that I solo and if they make is so that I can't solo effectively then I will be leaving the game.</p><p>As it was before these latest changes I would take on mobs that were blue or white solo or group double down arrow mobs and get off one or two bow shots and then have to melee. I end up with half to a quarter of my health depending on how often the stun me and then wait to heal up and go at it again. I am using good poisons and have an inbued bow. If this change takes effect it looks to me like I will not be able to solo these mobs anymore.</p><p>If that becomes true then it isnt worth playing.</p><p>If they lower our damage we need either better avoidance or some way to avoid getting hit  as much. Plus we need to be given some type of worth while utility.</p><p>I understand that with these latest changes they are also going to change poisons. I say we should no longer have to pay for any of our dps since it will not be worth it and other classes that will be equal or better than we are don't pay anything for their dps.</p><p>I have no problem doing less damage per second I do have a problem with not being able to solo and have to pay for dps to be equal with others.</p>

[Carna]

<div></div>If they go forward with these changes they need to remove the cost associated with arrows for Ranger and poisons for all Scout otherwise it means that all Scouts will be paying merely to remain within their own tiers.

[leafnin]

<div></div><p>Another problem we're going to run into is what about insta cast CA's?  Also what's the base min CA cast delay?  Are we looking at 2 sec?, 2.5?, 3sec?  How many of our bow skills have a casting time of 1 sec or less?  Those are pretty much instant as far as the server is concerned.  I've asked about it, but I don't expect to see any data on it till a player finds a formula for it.  I'm pretty sure that hasn't been worked out going by the posts of our test/beta rangers.</p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p>

[illum]

<div></div>I'm curious if assassins will be able to proc poisons ever with their CA's...they have like 0.5 second attacks :smileytongue:

[klepp]

<div>so.. what your saying is... we have to buy our dmg (which sucks rear if we dont use poison) and yet we still need to be worse off?  Sooo tell me, what makes a group choose the lfg ranger over the lfg mage?   Oh wait, i know.. our runspeed buff..</div>

[Sulas]

The deal-breaker for me will be how well I can solo.  If I can't solo, it'll be hard for me to stick around.  However, once I cool off, I'll probably stick around just to see if I can solve the puzzle.  Ultimately, I enjoy running around in the space.  unfortunately, they're screwing with Tradeskills too.  That would have kept me here alone, but if those changes mess it up beyond enjoyment... well.We'll see.chins up - backs to each other - we'll make it through.<div></div>

[klepp]

<div>yea no doubt, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is soe doing to this game? making it playable by 5 year olds or what?   the ts changes are just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].. heck takin out interdependancy's were [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</div>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div></div>It might help to remember this additional quote from Blackguard:I suppose I should clarify my blunt statement a bit more. Rangers are currently in their own tier of damage versus single targets in group combat. Indeed, they are supposed to be in the top tier of damage along with the likes of Wizards, Warlocks, and Assassins, but as it stands now, they outshine each of those classes by too wide a margin. That is being corrected.<font color="#999999">Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder<font color="#ffffff">Edit: Rest of my post was pretty much pointless. Only point to make is that if we want to protect the Ranger class we will need to fight for it.</font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:46 PM</span></p>

[klepp]

<div></div><p>but seriously.. i know mmorpgs are forever changing, but they should only change for a reason.  I mean.. other classes cry.. we get nerf'd.. we cry long and hard enough.. something else will change.  people cried about dying, shards got taken out.  Its all the F'ing whiners that control the changes.  Almost ready to say i want to play a static mmorpg.. no changes...</p><p>heck i would love eq2 if it was how it was at launch.</p>

[Vedur]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div>so.. what your saying is... we have to buy our dmg (which sucks rear if we dont use poison) and yet we still need to be worse off?  Sooo tell me, what makes a group choose the lfg ranger over the lfg mage?   Oh wait, i know.. our runspeed buff..</div><hr></blockquote>this is what i'm worried about most. if we're not the number one dps class...then [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is the point of the ranger in the group? at that point every other scout and a bulk of the mages becomes much more desirable than just about any ranger. i'm one that agrees we need to be toned down, but i just can't see what we offer to a group other than pure DPS. we have absolutely ZERO benefit to a group besides damage.now, if they're going to address THAT as well as a reduction in our DPS....well then, that'd be interesting.personally reserving judgement until all the changes are on live and we can actually see what their "final" decisions are...until then i level my templar(god, i'm a glutton for punishment it seems).</span></div>

[Graven55]

<div></div>Wow....we really don't do anything but damage.  The other things we have are nice, but, name me even one DPS class you'd choose over a tier 3 damage ranger?  Can't think of one, me neither.  We offer the least useful debuffs, and the next person who cites pathfinding or evac as some kind of bonus to being a ranger needs to put down the bong and let their head clear up.

[klepp]

<div></div>is almost like soe makes snap decisions to please all the whiners without thinking about the other end of the stick? over and over again!

[Dragonsviperz]

<div></div><p>*sigh* assassins are gonna be slightly screwed imo...seeing as our attacks are really .5secs on regular CA's, BS's are a bit longer but til not that slow..so procs for us scouts are kinda weak if that does happen. But rangers and assassins won't be the top, conjuror take over incoming.</p>

[coltla]

Not first but first tier, the latest change puts us lower then that, perhaps tier 3.

[Gareorn]

<div>So, let me get this straight.  Rangers are being turned into Templars that can't heal, can't buff, and can't wear plate armor.  And this is being done because it's easier than fixing the mages?</div><div> </div><div>Looks like we are back to hoping there is an open slot on the raid so we'll at least get to participate as eye-candy.  This incremental nerfing is really getting old.  I was happy being a useless Ranger before LU13 because I like the Ranger play style.  But placing that carrot in front of us for six months then jerking it away is just plain wrong.</div>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Dragonsviperz wrote:<div></div><p>*sigh* assassins are gonna be slightly screwed imo...seeing as our attacks are really .5secs on regular CA's, BS's are a bit longer but til not that slow..so procs for us scouts are kinda weak if that does happen. But rangers and assassins won't be the top, conjuror take over incoming.</p><hr></blockquote>Assasins should be a bit better off than rangers, you guys have more heavy hitting skills than us.A lot of our damage simply comes from using a quick skill and that posion procing.

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div>So, let me get this straight.  Rangers are being turned into Templars that can't heal, can't buff, and can't wear plate armor.  And this is being done because it's easier than fixing the mages?</div><div> </div><div>Looks like we are back to hoping there is an open slot on the raid so we'll at least get to participate as eye-candy.  This incremental nerfing is really getting old.  I was happy being a useless Ranger before LU13 because I like the Ranger play style.  But placing that carrot in front of us for six months then jerking it away is just plain wrong.</div><hr></blockquote>Yep thats the thing isnt it, you cant give a class some serious DPS like that, let them have it for 6 months and then go 'oh by the way we never meant you to be doing this, so nerf'

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div></div>Found this little tidbit. I suppose this would be called the "fanboi" post by those who are really really upset right now...if you're just confused then maybe this will help.  I'm worried too about the DPS issues...but for whatever it's worth:<p>By fixing these bugs, we get a much more accurate standard from which to decide if further changes are necessary. <b>And if, after looking at the objective data we gather, it is determined that any class got hit too hard by this, we will make the adjustments necessary to get them where they need to be.</b></p><p>We have no desire to screw over any class. But sometimes these changes are necessary for the good of the game. It's never easy to hear that when you're on the receiving end of something you don't like, but unfortunately it has to happen sometimes.</p><p>Rangers and other classes may need to change their strategies to maximize their potential after these changes go live. <b>We're sorry for that. But as I said, we'll be watching the results of these changes closely and will make further adjustments as they are needed.</b></p><p>===========================Steve Danuser, a.k.a. MoorgardGame Designer, EverQuest II</p><div></div><p>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:24 PM</span></p>

[Carna]

<div></div>In 6 months time.

[Corwinus]

<div></div><p>I agree with you, I thought that after LU13 SOE had it right with the Ranger class and our spirit was high. We all thought they understood our class and the best was that we did not had to whine to get there.:smileyhappy:</p><p>Personaly I dont care being the ultimate Dps making the Wizzys blemish in jealousy, but I just want to be able to do my job in a Raid right, which means my buddys count on me to peel that mob fast while the others tank or debuff, or do their thing. And ,am I asking too much?  I want to be able to solo comfortably because as Rangers we do a lot of exploring and we need a chance to survive this.</p><p>But soon with LU20 being only able to make at most half dmg as we are doing now !!! Its pushing it a bit too far isnt it ? :smileysad:</p><p>This certainly takes away a lot of the expectations for KoS, which I cancelled today, subscription to follow if playing an EQ2 Ranger gets too lame. I only play a Ranger, I tried, but I am not interested in another class, I guess i will try a Ranger in another game, AD&D online is coming soon after all - back to the roots fellow Rangers :smileywink:</p><p>Corwin</p><p>Ranger 60 EQ2 Oasis server</p><p>Ranger 17 AD&D pen and paper</p><p> </p>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div></div><div></div>I'll copycat what Jay42 said on this...if this is as bad as it looks, then we should fight. We have to let the devs know how this is not only being perceived, but how it will affect our class. No one here wants a return to the pre-Live Update #13 days.So I'll eat all my other happy go lucky posts. Consider this my official retraction. I'm not being sarcastic here, just being honest. /feedback to devs is on!I'm in Beta so at least I can post about there and see what we get out of it. Best of luck to all.Edit: Kalara has already posted some results of testing on the Beta boards. Waiting to see if any response is received. Even if not, we'll keep this up going into and well past LU #20.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:33 PM</span></p>

[AfflictedOne]

Hey guys.... you're not seeing the best part of this whole nerf.   Now we won't have to spend 100% of our coin income on poisons.  We'll be able to buy some other nice stuff with it.   Like ...  ...   hmm ok there's nothing else in game worth spending coin on....  So I guess there is no best part of it.<div></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sulas wrote:We'll see.chins up - backs to each other - we'll make it through.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Now THAT is what I'm talkin about!!!</p><p>Glad to see a lot of other good, constructive questions already popping up in this thread - we do need to adapt as a class, and we'll need to help each other do so.</p><p>Buckle down, guys - the storm is coming, but we're going to weather it as best we can.</p>

[ridd]

It's more like you are about to get man [Removed for Content] in prison. You can either clinch your cheeks and risk getting donkey punched, or relax and hope for a reach around. I'm not some fly by night ranger. I played a bard on eq1 for 5 years did [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty dps in the top guild on xegony/zeb and was always nerfed. I came to eq2 to start fresh and by at the top of the dps chain. We are like eq1 bards now minus the utility.Brendan CloudrunnerFrom bard to ranger, still shafted<div></div>

[Erendil]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KnightOfTheWord wrote:<div></div>Found this little tidbit. I suppose this would be called the "fanboi" post by those who are really really upset right now...if you're just confused then maybe this will help.  I'm worried too about the DPS issues...but for whatever it's worth:<p>By fixing these bugs, we get a much more accurate standard from which to decide if further changes are necessary. <b>And if, after looking at the objective data we gather, it is determined that any class got hit too hard by this, we will make the adjustments necessary to get them where they need to be.</b></p><p>We have no desire to screw over any class. But sometimes these changes are necessary for the good of the game. It's never easy to hear that when you're on the receiving end of something you don't like, but unfortunately it has to happen sometimes.</p><p>Rangers and other classes may need to change their strategies to maximize their potential after these changes go live. <b>We're sorry for that. But as I said, we'll be watching the results of these changes closely and will make further adjustments as they are needed.</b></p><p>===========================Steve Danuser, a.k.a. MoorgardGame Designer, EverQuest II</p><div></div><p>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Hate to throw the cold water of reality on you, but SOE said virtually the same thing about guardians back in September. Guards are pretty much still where they were back in September....</p><p>Steadfast- 60 Ranger, ToxxuliaVentrous- 55 Guardian, ToxxuliaGuild Leader- Gold and Glory</p>

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>riddic wrote:Brendan CloudrunnerFrom bard to ranger, still shafted<div></div><hr></blockquote>Lol I love the quote. I'm thinking perhaps "I started with a bow but still wound up with the shaft"

[dacat]

<div></div>Well our dps gets bumped down to be on par with wizards and warlock, do we get equal group buffs to make us as desirable? Wizard boost elemental resists and warlocks boost disease resist.

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><p>Hopin someone can clarify this for me.... So will poisons, prismatic strike, gleaming strike, and any other proc <em>only</em> proc on CAs?I can't decipher if this change takes procs off of auto attack.... I mean, so basically the 7 second delay on my bow is worthless now?This is where I don't understand these changes. How will proc rate be figured on auto attack if procs DO still occur on them?And boy, proc rate being determined by my 1.5 or 1.0 second CA time on my bow is really gonna bite compared to the 7 second delay....</p><p> </p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"Well our dps gets bumped down to be on par with wizards and warlock, do we get equal group buffs to make us as desirable? Wizard boost elemental resists and warlocks boost disease resist. "</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Trust me, those buffs do nothing for our desirability.  No one in their right mind looks for us because of our buffs.:smileysad:</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Ahh well.  Here's to hoping everything works out.</font></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div>If they go forward with these changes they need to remove the cost associated with arrows for Ranger and poisons for all Scout otherwise it means that all Scouts will be paying merely to remain within their own tiers.<hr></blockquote>i dont know what your doing wrong but I havent bought arrows since lvl 25, and still manage to do decent damage... i did have some Cobalt ones crafted but we go through them so quickly it wasnt worth it.As for poisons.. as they proc now, I go through a full 7 charges of Adestes in about an hour... thats expensive.. after these changes I bet i dont go through a charge a night.it just got alot cheaper to be a ranger.. pity ous than half.</span></div>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><p><font color="#99ff99">OK, two things. I am sure this does not apply to every situation, but...Btil, do you raid?  Because I do and we often have many uses for those buffs. Many a time have the mage buffs saved us against nasty AoE mobs. Within the raid the mages often get moved around in groups to best use those buffs. Have I ever been moved around within a raid so that I can boost the damage of a groupmate or buff them in anyway? NO, I havn't. So yes, those buffs are in fact in demand depending of course on what you are fighting.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">And as for 7 charges of Adeste's in an hour....I imagine you are using it against t5 mobs to burn through it that fast. That has been the only time I have run through more than a couple charges of Adeste's. In a 4 hour trip through Courts or Gates, or in an evening of killing Cyclops or Giants in PoF, I might use 2 charges since it is more often resisted. I would reccomend using the t5 legendary or a t6 handcrafted on t5 mobs to save some gold. It's what i learned to do.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">I guess I will try not to get too concerned until i get a chance to see a before and after parse of my output against the same mob after LU20. But I cant help but be a little concerned at this point.</font></p>

[Sirlutt]

since LU19 I go through 200 procs of adestes doing Giants in about 10 minutes... i'm not being facecious...its that bad.. raiding Court i used 8 charges.. in 3 hours...<div></div>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#99ff99">Whoa.... I dont use nearly that much in courts or any other long raid.Can anyone tell us if the sequence in which you apply your poisons has something to do with how long they last? I seem to remember reading something about that back when i was a wee Ranger. Since then I have always applied my poison with the highest chance to proc first and then go down. So I apply Adeste's which is 25%, Numbing Blizzard which is 20% and then another rare debuff at 15%. I could be nuts, but it seemed like if I applied the 20% then the 25%, the 25% disappeared really really fast....</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">edited cause i get my threads confused  LOLAnd yeah, still wondering about how procs will be calculated on auto-attack.......not that i auto much at all.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99"></font> </p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:22 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:22 PM</span></p>

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#99ff99">OK, two things. I am sure this does not apply to every situation, but...Btil, do you raid?  Because I do and we often have many uses for those buffs. Many a time have the mage buffs saved us against nasty AoE mobs. Within the raid the mages often get moved around in groups to best use those buffs. Have I ever been moved around within a raid so that I can boost the damage of a groupmate or buff them in anyway? NO, I havn't. So yes, those buffs are in fact in demand depending of course on what you are fighting.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">And as for 7 charges of Adeste's in an hour....I imagine you are using it against t5 mobs to burn through it that fast. That has been the only time I have run through more than a couple charges of Adeste's. In a 4 hour trip through Courts or Gates, or in an evening of killing Cyclops or Giants in PoF, I might use 2 charges since it is more often resisted. I would reccomend using the t5 legendary or a t6 handcrafted on t5 mobs to save some gold. It's what i learned to do.</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">I guess I will try not to get too concerned until i get a chance to see a before and after parse of my output against the same mob after LU20. But I cant help but be a little concerned at this point.</font></p><hr></blockquote>You hit the nail right on the head. I'm always put in the 3rd or 4th group (more for just orginization) and then casters are moved around and into my group to BOOST my DPS. The raiding casters are really going to hate this when I can't build enough agro to get a mob off them when they toast a little high. The casters I raid with have always appreciate the skills I brought to the table because it's about the raid winning, not some personal glory for one person.I blew through an entire vial of Adeste's in Court the other night... an entire vial. Granted 1/4 of the time I was punching because I was naked, but I was still proccing!!!!

[Jayad]

<div></div><p>I use 1 charge of adeste's every 5-10 minutes, depending on what's going on.  Usually it ends up being 1-2 vials per hour on a raid.</p>