Bad news from Beta

[Visay1]

<span class="headline">Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006<i> 2/14/2005 8:15 pm</i></span>*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack.Not only does it mean that we will see alot of Triple Shots oder Double shots without a single proc but atm it seems that Quick shot does not proc poison anymore.My proc rate is way down now and so is my damage. If this goes live our damage will take a serious hit. I have not done any parse right now but it feels like my damage is down by atleast 30%.T1:Conjurer>NecroT2:Assassin>Brigand>Swashbuckler>RangerT3:Wizard-Warlock....This seems to be the way SOE is going with this expansion. Lets just hope the procs are somehow bugged on beta.<div></div>

[Memory]

its even worse actually.average dps in group is about 500-600 (on green mobs) if ya got full legendary gear or better, fully mastered out lv 70. (means i only encounter max even cons)that actually makes us rather tier3 than tier2, conju and necro pets easily hit 700+.furthermore poison procs insane low amounts of time atm, its like fire off triple volley, precise shot, amazing and get like 1 poison proc !shield also procs hardly once every 5-8 hits, quick shot doesnt lead to a proc at all.it actually takes like 4-5 CAs at least to kill a lv 55 solo mob on the first island in KoS (again fully mastered, str >400 int >140, grizz bow)so welcome to tier 3 dps if they dont fix that<div></div>

[klepp]

<div></div>this better not go live, if it does, not only does our job go poof, well atleast we're not as good at it anymore.. but they just torched our soloing ability even further.  Cmon SoE make up your minds, are we utility now or are we dps?     ffs we have to pay (Alot) for our dps... why make it worse?

[Memory]

well our poison costs are going very low now since 25% poisons proc at least 1/10 of the time and stun poisons and debuff poisons hardly ever proc in a heroic fight.i just think its kinda hard nerfing a class that nearly only does dps utility (id call it even the class with the least utility except dps), and then the dps is set down to Tier3 below bruisers even.if this goes live, you got us in the same situation as enchanters.btw i created a new lv 60 ranger on test with the testing gear and stuff like that i managed to do a good 320-390 dps on lv 55-59 mobs, good eh ?<div></div>

[Axor]

<div>well right now you beta guys are that .. beta testing.</div><div> </div><div>So i hope they reconsider it.</div><div> </div><div>We always knew that rng dps came from poisons in a 40%, so destroying that is gona mean that your dps drops a LOT</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Axor wrote:<div>well right now you beta guys are that .. beta testing.</div><div> </div><div>So i hope they reconsider it.</div><div> </div><div>We always knew that rng dps came from poisons in a 40%, so destroying that is gona mean that your dps drops a LOT</div><hr></blockquote>Which is what the Wizzies want ... nerf the rangers.</span></div>

[Cael]

<div></div><p>Is there a beta forum where you can put that info in. I mean...thats pretty rediculous. Are they going to up all of our CA's dmg by about oh, i dont know, 200%? If not, that is really not cool.</p><p>Complain Complain Complain until it gets fixed</p><p>It seems to work for wizzies. We dont want them to suck, why do they want us to suck so terribly bad</p>

[Fennir]

This is what the sorcerers wanted.  Now we can suck together.<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><div>Having poison proc on the first hit only seems too specific to be a random bug...    Compounded with mele proc and legendary poisons we may be in a tough spot indeed.</div><div> </div><div>A note on stockpiling poisons...  I considered stockpiling until I realized a poison dose only seems to last about 30 min tops in a good group.  Too expensive for my poor rangers wallet.</div><div> </div><div>I don't know why pet classes are getting so uber...  for lower tier damage level mixed with great utility they sure are shining bright!</div><div> </div><div>Poison proc changes will really hurt us...  I think the changes were made to make scouts more pvp friendly.</div></blockquote>

[Kala Asuras]

It seems to be worse than what they stated in the update notes.  They may be counting the CA for their cast length instead of the delay on the bow.  I logged in last night after the patch but before they put up the notes and noticed something wrong right away.  I messed around and came up with these numbers, not enough to make a conclusion but it is a cause for worry.Culling the Weak23 shots4 poison procs5 quick shot procs2 gleaming strikesPrecise Shot10 shots2 poison procs4 quick shot procs0 gleamig strikesTripple Arrow26 shots1 poison proc!!2 quick shot procs1 gleaming strikesNow compair those to the regular ranged auto attack.Auto Attack39 shots27 poison procs32 quick shot procs7 gleaming strikes<div></div>

[Beldin_]

<div></div>What's the next change .. give every bowstyle a delay like stream so that we never again are able to shot on any mob while soloing ? And maybe lock the use of non-melee CA's for 6 seconds after use of cheapshot ?

[Taubin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Beldin_ wrote:<div></div>What's the next change .. give every bowstyle a delay like stream so that we never again are able to shot on any mob while soloing ? And maybe lock the use of non-melee CA's for 6 seconds after use of cheapshot ?<hr></blockquote>YAY!!!!!!!!!! Let's give them more nerf ideas...:smileymad:  I used to LOVE my ranger, but, not so much anymore...  I usually go along with the whole "did they take our bow away? No? Good, were still rangers.  Adapt and move on" type of thinking, but, it has gotten harder and harder for me...  I am not sure I will spend the extra money on the new expansion, as the last one is still broke, and I really don't enjoy being a lvl 60 with not much to do.   I am usually really chipper, but, that has been lost with me now...  Who knows, maybe I'll just delete my accounts and go to another game...  It sure the hell won't be WOW, but...  The only reason I have stayed this long is because I love my class and the friends I have made here...  But, that has since passed...:smileysad:

[Ranja]

<div></div><div>This is ridiculous. If this goes live, I am done with SOE. I don't think I have ever said anything like that. But, it will completely ruin Rangers. My heart sank when I read this.</div><div> </div><div>Elbryan60 Ranger</div>

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kala Asuras wrote:It seems to be worse than what they stated in the update notes.  They may be counting the CA for their cast length instead of the delay on the bow.  I logged in last night after the patch but before they put up the notes and noticed something wrong right away.  I messed around and came up with these numbers, not enough to make a conclusion but it is a cause for worry.Culling the Weak23 shots4 poison procs5 quick shot procs2 gleaming strikesPrecise Shot10 shots2 poison procs4 quick shot procs0 gleamig strikesTripple Arrow26 shots1 poison proc!!2 quick shot procs1 gleaming strikesNow compair those to the regular ranged auto attack.Auto Attack39 shots27 poison procs32 quick shot procs7 gleaming strikes<div></div><hr></blockquote>those numbers are correct.and thats why we are about tier3 dps right now in KoS, our AAs dont work still, we only got 2 good ones that dont work atm, the rest is pretty lame. while other classes get tremendous aas we're even [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up by decreasing poisons and procs.my new dps line would be something like:conju > necro > wiz / war > bruiser > monk > brigand / assa / swashi / ranger > guardian</span><div></div>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<div></div>I hate to post on anything thats in beta since it seems to always change, but if any form of this goes through it will seriously hurt the ranger class. My first toon was a guardian, me and my wife basicly duoed all the time with her illusionist, then LU13 changed all that. So I went with a ranger only so sony could drasticlly change that class too. Come on enough already, let us get comfortable with a class then change it. I understand small tweaks but this hardly qualifys as a tweak!

[Ranja]

<div></div><p>We cannot take this sitting down. This needs to be changed. All rangers must unify on this issue and make sure this never gets a sniff of live servers. Yeah,  I agree with the OP there is no way I am buying the KoS expansion.</p><p> </p><p>Elbryan60 Ranger</p>

[Fennir]

Hey, this is what we get for all our damage being based on a bug.   As much as I don't like the change, I know they'll never change it back to the way it was.If SOE wants us to be T1 DPS, they need to make us that way using game mechanics they intended.That's what we need to be asking for.<div></div>

[Magus_Bl]

<div></div><p>Not a ranger here but if these numbers are accurate, this nerfing business is out of control.  Why do they always insist on taking an elephant gun to the mouse?</p><p>Welcome to Combat Revamp 2.0....</p>

[Ranja]

<div></div>Hey, this is what we get for all our damage being based on a bug.   As much as I don't like the change, I know they'll never change it back to the way it was<div><hr></div><p>When was that ever a bug? Who stated that poison proc in each hit was a bug? And I am so sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when a change is made they are calling it a bug. If this a bug, everything in this [Removed for Content] game can be called a bug.  If something has been in the game since its inception and has always worked that way even through a combat revamp – how the hell can it be called a bug. If this gets changed we need an across the board damage boost of about 40% to all of our CAs.</p><p> </p><p>I am not Chicken Little and I don’t post dread and gloom threads ever! But, if this does go live and we do not get a damage boost on our CAs – I am done. I am done with EQ2 and with SOE. They just have no idea what they are doing and use a sledgehammer to make changes. I only have one character – my Ranger. And, I am not switching to level up another. Maybe I just don’t have the stomach for MMOs and all their changes. Or, maybe SOE does not have a clue. Whatever it is, NWN2 is looking really good.</p><p> </p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Magus_Blue wrote:<div></div><p>Not a ranger here but if these numbers are accurate, this nerfing business is out of control.  <font color="#ff0000">Why do they always insist on taking an elephant gun to the mouse?</font></p><p>Welcome to Combat Revamp 2.0....</p><hr></blockquote><p>He He a great analogy.  My first toon was a warlock...   I rolled that toon over a year ago after researching what his job and role was...  Then combat revamp 1.0 becaume an AE specialist... DOH!!!!  Because I wanted single target rolled a ranger after researching classes and abilities....  Then revamp 2.0.... DOH!!!!   </p><p>They take away almost all death penalty because too many people thought it was anoying.... Make griffons towers and belles in most zones to take away anoying travel....  When will they learn that when they totally 180 degree alter a class THAT IS FAR MORE ANOYING THAN HAVING TO GET A SPIRIT SHARD.</p><p>Getting tired of feeling like a rat in sony's maze...</p>

[Cael]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GTaubin wrote:<div></div><blockquote>YAY!!!!!!!!!! Let's give them more nerf ideas...:smileymad:  I used to LOVE my ranger, but, not so much anymore...  I usually go along with the whole "did they take our bow away? No? Good, were still rangers.  Adapt and move on" type of thinking, but, it has gotten harder and harder for me...  I am not sure I will spend the extra money on the new expansion, as the last one is still broke, and I really don't enjoy being a lvl 60 with not much to do.   I am usually really chipper, but, that has been lost with me now...  Who knows, maybe I'll just delete my accounts and go to another game...  It sure the hell won't be WOW, but...  The only reason I have stayed this long is because I love my class and the friends I have made here...  But, that has since passed...:smileysad:<hr></blockquote></blockquote><p>You took the words right out of my mouth. Its wierd, are you reading my thoughts right now too?</p><p>There used to be nothing that could seperate me from my Ranger, even far before lu13, but now....it might be Everfrost will be short a couple more rangers ...:smileysad:</p>

[Memory]

<span><blockquote>Fennir wrote:Hey, this is what we get for all our damage being based on a bug.   As much as I don't like the change, I know they'll never change it back to the way it was.If SOE wants us to be T1 DPS, they need to make us that way using game mechanics they intended.That's what we need to be asking for.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well i dont totally agree that all we had was a bug, but in fact i dont care!Im playing a ranger bc i want to be T1 dps without utility (nearly) -- it doesnt matter if our dmg is mostly based on poison or whatever, i can adjust to how we work out our dmg, but i dont think you can adjust a ranger to not do good dps, because there is nothing left to do then.</span><div></div>

[Fennir]

That's sort of my point.  It doesn't matter where our dmg was coming from.The devs said we are supposed to be T1 DPS.  The only thing keeping us near summoners was procs.If that's going to be changed, I fully expect my class to be T1 DPS again.  I don't care how they accomplish it.<div></div>

[Cael]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<span>Well i dont totally agree that all we had was a bug, but in fact i dont care!Im playing a ranger bc i want to be T1 dps without utility (nearly) -- it doesnt matter if our dmg is mostly based on poison or whatever, i can adjust to how we work out our dmg, but i dont think you can adjust a ranger to not do good dps, because there is nothing left to do then.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Agreed. Take our dps away and YES we still have pathfinding and tracking, since those are such amazing utility (so claims the wizards). Youve got to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing kidding me. This might just be the straw for me

[Niuan]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<span><blockquote>Fennir wrote:Hey, this is what we get for all our damage being based on a bug.   As much as I don't like the change, I know they'll never change it back to the way it was.If SOE wants us to be T1 DPS, they need to make us that way using game mechanics they intended.That's what we need to be asking for.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well i dont totally agree that all we had was a bug, but in fact i dont care!Im playing a ranger bc i want to be T1 dps without utility (nearly) -- it doesnt matter if our dmg is mostly based on poison or whatever, i can adjust to how we work out our dmg, but i dont think you can adjust a ranger to not do good dps, because there is nothing left to do then.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>If this was a bug introduced in LU13 why in the hell would they wait till LU 20X to fix [Or better yet actually test thier patches and fix prior to "golive"]... Sadistic!  A bug of this caliber that moves us two to three tiers of dps should have been fixed the VERY next update.  Mele weop procs should have been fixed the VERY next update....  Tradeskilling change to poisons.... Should never be changed, I personally know several tradeskiller type people who came to eq2 because of the complex tradeskiling...</p><p>Then again... Beta could be bugged and all this is but a dream!  I for one am holding out on purchasing the expansion to see where we land.</p><p>Message Edited by Niuan on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:12 AM</span></p>

[Fennir]

It wasn't introduced in LU#13.It was introduced in the beginning of the game with their proc formula that was weighted towards long-delay weapons.  Our longbow is the longest delay weapon in the game, and using that formula equates to an almost 99% proc chance per bow shot.It's just that our damage sucked a lot more before LU#13 so a lot of non-rangers didn't notice.  After LU#13, everyone noticed.<div></div>

[jagermiester]

<div></div><p>I simply can not see us getting tooled on so unmercifully without a significant upgrade in Combat arts. The whole poision issue is a null point they have basically been working exactly the same since DoF came out why change them now? The little tweak in lu 19 just made it so they didnt last as long and kept a accurate counter on the amout of procs. If this does go live and we become a t2 or 3 dps dealing class what use are we? WE are DPS. It is what we do. I didnt roll a ranger to be utility i rolled a ranger to be a damage dealing monster.</p><p> </p><p>Jagerr 59 ranger of  <Legacy></p>

[Memory]

i just had a vision of a tombstone saying:<hr size="2" width="100%">R.I.P.Rangers(LU13-LU20)"and the wizards cried, nerf rangers!"<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div>

[Lysanthir Ahmquissar]

<div><p>As of LU20, the Fists line of procs will only trigger on the first hit of any art that launches more than one attack. In other words, the days of landing more than five procs are soon to be over.</p><p>Do not cry nerf; I told you this was coming. After the next live update, the spell will behave as the description says it should. This is a bug fix, not a nerf.</p><p>===========================Steve Danuser, a.k.a. MoorgardGame Designer, EverQuest II</p><p>Have to admit I read that thoroughly unsympathetic comment to bruisers who are being hit with the same change and thought what a callous person. Hopefully he just got out on the wrong side of the bed before writing that but I can't see him showing us any sympathy though at least he commented on the change to them.</p><p>I moved from playing a shadowknight due to their problems after it just became too much of a grind and played a ranger I loved before adding a bruiser to the mix who I also adore. Why on earth do SoE feel the need to repeatedly "bug fix" classes in such a way as anyone except Moorgard would call a nerf and then deny it to our faces? Do they truly believe if they say white is black enough times and ignore any evidence otherwise that it becomes true?</p><p>A former fanboi.</p><p> </p></div>

[SwissArmySh]

<div></div><div>I hope this doesn't have a massive impact on Ranger damage as far as being balanced goes.  I've just got my Ranger to lvl 22 and I'm loving the play style more and more.  My main is a Monk and love being able to tank fairly well and dish out some nice damage when needed.</div><div> </div><div>Thinking about it, and from the way things have scaled, I have noticed quite a big gap in damage output between my Ranger and Monk.  The damage i can dish out with my Ranger at lvl 22 is a lot higher than what my Monk could do at that lvl.  And the way things are scaling, it looks like that trend isn't going to break (unless theres a huge class changing turning point I'm not aware of at higher lvl's)</div><div> </div><div>Also, I have yet to use any poison....  From what I'm reading here, poison makes a massive difference.  Well if that's the case, the damage gap would be huge.</div><div> </div><div>The point I'm trying to make from what I've seen, as little as that may be, there will still be a large damage gap between Ranger and brawler dps after they nerf poison procs....</div><div> </div><div>Don't take this the wrong way...  I really want my Ranger to out dps my Monk with a passion.  That's why I started a Ranger.  I wanted a melee class with very nice damage and some utility and style and I have to say I'm loving it so far.  On the flip side though, I get slapped about so badly compared to my Monk :smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div><div>Enlighten me :smileyindifferent:</div>

[Kala Asuras]

Stream of Arrows, useless in solo after LU19, will now be just plain useless if this goes through.  I can't wait for a 30s CA that ony has the possibility of procing once.The issue is not where our DPS comes from.  I personaly wouldn't mind not having to pay as much for our DPS but it wouldnt' be a 40% inc in our CA damage it would be closer to 100%.  I parse posion as doing 40-60% of my damage depending on the encounter.<div></div>

[Fennir]

I parse poison at about 30-33% on average on long raid encounters, and Quick Shot at about 22-25%.  That, plus Ancient Venom usually combines to be between 55%-70% of my overall damage.This will also make stun poisons quite the opposite of reliable. =/<div></div>

[Deml]

<div></div><p>I can see why they were changing procs when they site those bruiser skills.  It was never meant for them to get a proc on every hit like that.  The same logic applies to Triple Arrow and Precise Shot.  Gleaming strike should not proc on every arrow we fire, even if it is nice.  However, POISONS should.  We poison our weapons.  It is implied that the poison is on every arrow, every blade we use.  Each arrow should have a chance to proc for poison damage.  Our offensive stance, Archer's frenzy (yes I know I'm only using t6 skills in my argument) has a chance to proc from every arrow we fire, that's the whole point of it.  SOE needs to maybe tone back the broad strokes of changes and spend a little more time coding them specifically.  Make it so that weapons/armor can only proc on the first shot of every skill but poisons and buffs should proc on every shot since they would technically be on everything we have.</p><p>As for stream, it should NOT be considered in with any of this.  Each arrow fired from stream should be treated as it's own CA otherwise, what's the point?  It's a specific duration autoattack and that's it, without the chance for procs.  We'd be better off kicking up the haste and just using autoattack till our ca's refresh rather than using stream.</p>

[Vorzevha]

I am so frustrated by these changes that I have to say it again.... when is Vanguard coming out?

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><p>If Stream of Arrows, only Procs once ever, then expect a mass reduction in our dps, if our AE's Like Storm of Arrows and Selection only proc once per CA expect another reduction.</p><p>Triple Arrow is atm our highest Single DD combat art, with these changes it no longer will be. Precise Shot is probably our second highest DD combat art, again with these changes it will not be.</p><p>All the changes since LU19 have lowered Ranger DPS, when you add them all together this is the pentultimate nerf to DPS.</p><p>Hope the Wizards are happy. Although I know they needed help, and I know maybe our DPS was a tad too high, this leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.</p><p> </p><p>Oh well back to PreLu13 Fun :p</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Cron]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:i just had a vision of a tombstone saying:<hr size="2" width="100%">R.I.P.Rangers(LU13-LU20)"and the wizards cried, nerf rangers!"<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div><hr></blockquote>Here ya go.  I don't necessarily subscribe to the below image.. but thought you might get a laugh.<img src="http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1561/tombstone7st.jpg"></span><div></div>

[Ssindain]

Yeah this change drops us to a fun tier 3-ish damage class and leaves the summoners as the undisputed kings of DPS. DoF combat revamp: warlocks were the best DPS class in the game - nerfed to tier 2-3.KoS combat revamp: rangers were the best DPS class in the game - nerfed to tier 2-3.All I can say is be ready for it summoners  /shrug<div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

Screw it, i love my ranger anyway he kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I dont care what any parser says.

[Guard_Ra]

<div></div><p>I must say, I am so tired of re-learning how to play my Ranger. Chances are it will go live and then they will tell us that it is working as intended and in another six months they'll fix/nerf us again.:smileysad:</p><p>I can honestly say, this is the first time I've actually considered retiring.</p><p>/disgusted</p><p> </p>

[Ranja]

<div></div><p>Ah yes but will you love it when you cant get groups and you cant solo and you dont do anything of noteworthy. Will you love it when you are a paper mache tiger, shooting celery stalks and swining wet noodles.</p><p>I love rangers as well. But, not SOEs version. If I cant do anything with my Ranger because of these nerfs I will be very disappointed.</p><p>Elbryan60 Ranger</p>

[leafnin]

<div></div><p>Sounds like the only two skills that should at all be affected by this is Triple and Precise.  I see Stream of Arrows as a 'hasted' autoattack where we gain the detriments of Stifled, Pacified, Increased hate gain, and Root.  In turn we get a 1.5 sec autoattack of measured damage based on CA quality.  Each attack is a separate 'Stream Shot'. And therefore should count as a 'new' separate attack.  Again that's just my own outlook on it.  Worse case scenario is nothing procs on the second or third shots from Triple and Precise.  I'd prefer poison proc on all, but I'll deal with it if it's the worse case scenario.  Anything more then that well they can expect to be /feedback every time I log in and out about it.  I thought it was alittle weird that they gave us a 20 for poison crit chance in the INT AA field unless that's been changed in Beta.  I'm just going off what was posted in the Sin boards.</p><p> </p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor</p>

[theorbell]

<div></div><div></div><p>/rant on</p><p>So dissapointed about even a whiff of [edit:  this] change even though it's still not clear what the bottom line to our DPS will be if it goes live.  Devs please don't go live with this change without providing a way to compensate via CA's, AAs or something.</p><p>/rant off</p><p>ok maybe not really a rant, but i can't state my feelings about this any more clearly or diplomatically.  Devs don't fail us please.</p><p>Message Edited by theorbell on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:56 AM</span></p>

[mill94]

oh for  christs sakes, you guys PARSE 40% higher then everyone else.<div></div>

[Fennir]

we also stick to our own FORUMS  100% more than everyone else for christs sakes oh!<div></div>

[Dojoc]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mill9469 schrieb:oh for  christs sakes, you guys PARSE 40% higher then everyone else.<div></div><hr></blockquote>lol, never parsed a conji, noob</span></div>

[mill94]

And no utlity? OMG, i didn't know they took away evac, melee debuffs, and tracking away from you guys. I'm so sorry!NERF RANGERS SOME MORE!<div></div>

[mill94]

i'm sorry, i wasn't aware this was a OMG WE AREN"T THE LEETEST pity party.<div></div>

[Lexan]

<div>This is bull [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</div>

[Taubin]

<div></div>There is only one thing that upsets me more than the changes, and that is someone coming in to NECRO OUR FORUMS....  Melee debuffs? from what? our POISONS that aren't going to proc anymore?  Pathfinding...  oh wait, isn't that the SAME as spirit of the wolf?  So, that brings us to evac, yes, we can evac our party ever 10 minutes, but, it's really NOT that usefull...  Don't get me wrong, I love the ability, but, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], 1 freaking group ability and we need a nerf (again)?  Get a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing life and go necro your own forums

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>mill9469 wrote:And no utlity? OMG, i didn't know they took away evac, melee debuffs, and tracking away from you guys. I'm so sorry!NERF RANGERS SOME MORE!<div></div><hr></blockquote>Mmmm....TROLLS!

[Graven55]

<div></div><p>I just want to chime in and add a plea for some stability.  I think it's ridiculous to change this many things at once.  Sony always has been prone to dramatic changes, though, unfortunately.</p><p>To the people making the game:  Look at it, it's not as if rangers, even at their peak were "Unbalancing the game".  Yes we were good, but can you punish a class for being good?  How about instead of killing an archetype that the players who play really love and enjoy, you make the other archetypes equally enjoyable?  I think Sony oughta look into positve changes instead of always "Nerf".  It's a culture thing that needs to change gamewide, instead of comparing yourself to another class and making bogus "We're not as powerful and it's not fair, nerf them!" arguments, how bout you make an "Improve our class because it's not fun, or because it's useless" argument. </p><p>Now, a tier 3 ranger, while it may be a fun play style, is less than useless.  Why would anyone make a ranger when they can make a class that deals more damage, AND has more utility?  Fun playstyle is all well and good, but how can we even get a group if we don't In conclusion, I just want to say that I'm sick of it.  I make a character based on how it will function in the group with other friends and my other characters (I like to 2box on occasion).  Then, I grind out a bunch of levels, am about to get to the goal I set myself...and poof, they change it on me.  A little stability would be nice.  I can totally agree with the guy who said he feels "Like a rat in a maze...." I get to the end...and they take away the cheese and say "Start over again...".  It's not that we need to have the most broken character, we just want what we bargained and worked for.</p><p>Just my 2 cents.</p>

[mill94]

Take off your leather, wear a robe, give up your nifty taunt debuffs. Then you can be Ranger Tier (calling what you guys do now tier one is laughable) dmg again. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[coltla]

On a second note, None of us want to be above mages, we just want to be able to COMPETE, on the same level we've been led to believe we could all along. Changing this now is an outrage, you wanna see EVAC? Go through with this and watch the rangers go.

[mill94]

Oh i just remebered. They are nerfing crafted weapons and armour. its all gonna be treasured quality. So thats almost as good as this!<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[Taubin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>coltlane wrote:On a second note, None of us want to be above mages, we just want to be able to COMPETE, on the same level we've been led to believe we could all along. Changing this now is an outrage, you wanna see EVAC? Go through with this and watch the rangers go.<hr></blockquote><p>/agree completely</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Ranja]

<div></div><p>Oh i just remebered. They are nerfing crafted weapons and armour. its all gonna be treasured quality. So thats almost as good as this!<span><img width="16" border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" height="16"></p><hr></span><p>Who are you and why are you posting on the Ranger forums. You must be 6 years old. Go to your sorcerors boards and take off your diaper.</p>

[Lexan]

<div>A year from now there will be people talking in vent going hey remember when people use to play rangers.  [Removed for Content] what where they thinking rangers suck!!!!!</div>

[Incedio]

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>mill9469 wrote:Oh i just remebered. They are nerfing crafted weapons and armour. its all gonna be treasured quality. So thats almost as good as this!<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Go back to your own form Mr. Troll...</p>

[Taubin]

<div></div><p>:smileysad::smileymad::smileysad::smileysad:</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>Lexani- wrote:<div>A year from now there will be people talking in vent going hey remember when people use to play rangers.  [Removed for Content] what where they thinking rangers suck!!!!!</div><hr></blockquote><p>If enough of us stick around that long</p>

[Lexan]

<div>I dont know if i mentioned this before but ....................... This is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing Bull [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1</div>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><p>I read the OP and then immediately went to the beta test forums and combat discussions, unable to believe that this would actually be on beta, much less even suggested.  I read and read and checked out combat parses and read some more.</p><p>Then went to sonys online store and immediately canceled my pre-order for KoS</p><p>Whye the heck should I pay 30 bucks for an expansion when all I will be able to do is solo grind and die?  No group or raid would want me, since I can't DPS anymore and certainly don't bring anything else to the table. </p>

[davian9]

<div></div><p>Main: 60 asn</p><p>Atl: 45 rng</p><p>Even after LU19 I felt that rangers were a bit high on DPS compaed to some other t1 dps classes.  I was expecting to see ranger dps lowered slightly with KoS and other t1 classes dps raised slightly.  That being said, in my oppinion the changes (fixes) SOE plans to implament is totaly over the top and unfair to rangers.   I do not think that people who have not played a ranger can have a true appreciation for just how much these changes (if they are true and hit live) will devistate rangers.</p><p>Keep in my my main is an asn, we are just getting back on track from being border line broke for the better part of 6 months.  I would not wish what asns (and some other classes) have gone through on anyone.  If these changes go live rangers will go from extriemly good to very very bad.  My only hope is that the preliminary beta tests that are comming in are not correct.</p><p>Best of luck and sorry to see the nerf bat hit so hard. </p>

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>davian999 wrote:<div></div><p>Main: 60 asn</p><p>Atl: 45 rng</p><p>Even after LU19 I felt that rangers were a bit high on DPS compaed to some other t1 dps classes.  I was expecting to see ranger dps lowered slightly with KoS and other t1 classes dps raised slightly.  That being said, in my oppinion the changes (fixes) SOE plans to implament is totaly over the top and unfair to rangers.   I do not think that people who have not played a ranger can have a true appreciation for just how much these changes (if they are true and hit live) will devistate rangers.</p><p>Keep in my my main is an asn, we are just getting back on track from being border line broke for the better part of 6 months.  I would not wish what asns (and some other classes) have gone through on anyone.  If these changes go live rangers will go from extriemly good to very very bad.  My only hope is that the preliminary beta tests that are comming in are not correct.</p><p>Best of luck and sorry to see the nerf bat hit so hard. </p><hr></blockquote>I think I speak for all rangers when I say, "Thanks for the support"

[Ranja]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Prandtl wrote:<div></div><p>I read the OP and then immediately went to the beta test forums and combat discussions, unable to believe that this would actually be on beta, much less even suggested.  I read and read and checked out combat parses and read some more.</p><p>Then went to sonys online store and immediately canceled my pre-order for KoS</p><p>Whye the heck should I pay 30 bucks for an expansion when all I will be able to do is solo grind and die?  No group or raid would want me, since I can't DPS anymore and certainly don't bring anything else to the table. </p><hr></blockquote><p>I agree completely. Instead of cancelling though I just put my credit card back in my pocket. There is no way I am ordering KoS if these conditions go live</p><p>Elbryan60 Ranger</p><p> </p>

[Carna]

<div></div><p>I've got a very bad feeling about this whole expansion patch. My main is a Brigand. I sympathise with you chaps completely. SOE has unfortunately always yanked the carpet out from under the feet of classes all the way through EQ1 included.</p><p>Rangers do FAR more damage than my Brigand, <strong>and I don't care!</strong>... I can play a Ranger any time I want to. If I'm playing a Brigand it's because I looked at that class and decided <em>"I want to play that class because of X, Y and Z"</em>. What I don't want is down the line to find the class is changed from underneath me and the whole basis of my choice is invalidated.</p><p><strong>Stop changing the classes. </strong>We know what they're like <em>now,</em> let let us make our choices and play with them.</p><p>The defining characteristic of any SOE game is paranoia, because you know at any moment you class could be flushed down the toilet. All online games go through change, but in my experience only SOE games manage to achieve such a heightened level of paranoia... the WoW expansion is due out soon, maybe it'll catch me again, and I can play that until something else comes along.</p><p>Good luck with avoiding being flushed down the toilet... and I mean that because with SOE you have absolutely no idea how this will end up. In a months time the Ranger could be a laughing stock. Moreso it might remain that way for a year... or it might all just be a minor tweak.... you have absolutely no way to know until it happens, and once it does happen it's too late.</p><p>Now... for that very small minority of Rangers who felt the need to populate Brigand discussions of Amazing Reflexes "ajustments" with the comments of "good" or "it's about time".... this is what happens when a climate of nerfing is allowed to perpetuate. Tweaks to skills and abilities, literal adjustments will always be necessary. The course grained revisioning that SOE engages in 9 times out of ten merely leaves a smoking crater.</p><p>You all have this Scouts unconditional support.</p>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><div></div>Dear ************* ,This is an email to verify that the recent pre-order you placed at the Station Store has been cancelled. No charges have been billed to your credit card. If the cancellation of your order is in error, please visit the Station Store at <a target="_blank" href="http://store.station.sony.com/">http://store.station.sony.com</a> and place your order again.Thank you, and do visit us again!Sony Online Entertainment Inc.SOE Europe Limited for customers in the EU<a target="_blank" href="http://www.station.sony.com/">www.station.sony.com</a>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PREORDER NUMBER: 8_____6PREORDER DATE: February 4, 2006-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>Message Edited by Prandtl on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:01 AM</span></p>

[Kala Asuras]

I have seen it mentioned in this thread that this change should only be effecting our precise shot and tripple arrow lines but this is not the case.  I posted somewhere on page 1 i believe a quick test that i did last night.  The CAs i tested were procing MUCH less than would be expected even if the two and three shot CAs were only counting as on.  There was another change that didn't get mentioned in the update notes.<div></div>

[Rijacki]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:i just had a vision of a tombstone saying:<hr size="2" width="100%">R.I.P.Rangers(LU13-LU20)"and the wizards cried, nerf rangers!"<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div><hr></blockquote>Honestly, it's not that wizards hate rangers, it's that they're frustrated by the fact they have been told time and again they're T1 damage and they're consistantly T3 or lower.. behind everyone and his uncle no matter if you figure burst or sustained. . even if you count in the damage shield, the tiny fire proc cast on others, and the -few- buffs.As a wizard (who also has a ranger, albiet lower level), I don't want to see rangers "nerfed", but proc counts exceeding available procs -is- a bug and procs with the bow because another weapon held has a proc (i.e. the bow procing the granite tomahawk) isn't intended. In my opinion, EACH "real" arrow should carry with it the chance to do applied poison damage just as each swing of of a blade (in -either- hand) should.  If it uses up an arrow out of your bag and isn't a non-component "shadow", it should have a chance to proc an applied poison whether or not it procs an item or CA related effect. </span></div>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:i just had a vision of a tombstone saying:<hr size="2" width="100%">R.I.P.Rangers(LU13-LU20)"and the wizards cried, nerf rangers!"<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div><hr></blockquote>Honestly, it's not that wizards hate rangers, it's that they're frustrated by the fact they have been told time and again they're T1 damage and they're consistantly T3 or lower.. behind everyone and his uncle no matter if you figure burst or sustained. . even if you count in the damage shield, the tiny fire proc cast on others, and the -few- buffs.As a wizard (who also has a ranger, albiet lower level), I don't want to see rangers "nerfed", but proc counts exceeding available procs -is- a bug and procs with the bow because another weapon held has a proc (i.e. the bow procing the granite tomahawk) isn't intended. In my opinion, EACH "real" arrow should carry with it the chance to do applied poison damage just as each swing of of a blade (in -either- hand) should.  If it uses up an arrow out of your bag and isn't a non-component "shadow", it should have a chance to proc an applied poison whether or not it procs an item or CA related effect. </span></div><hr></blockquote>That's absolute nonsense. Rogues are Tier 2 and Wizards are point blank not lower than Rogues on the dps scale. Brawlers are Tier 3 and Wizards abolutely produce more dps than them.... it's this kind of hyperbole which many Wizards actually start to believe ("we're tier 3 or lower&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that has so many Wizards woefully unhappy.

[Lexan]

<div>I AGREE WIZARDS NEED MORE DPS WE ALL DO.</div><div> </div><div>But dont [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the other classes to get all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in T1 dps in the same [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in box!!!!!!!!!!!</div>

[Zeijandi]

This is an assanine move by the devs.  I've cancelled my preorder of KoS and I won't renew my EQ2 subscription if this stands.  The idea that they suddenly want to ruin what is one of their more popular classes by suddenly reducing the ranger's effectiveness so drastically seems a bit thoughtless.  Devs, you need to wake up.  Wizards are not broken.  They are fine.  They have utility, they are tier 1 damage.  Rangers are only damage.  They are fine as well.  Fixing bugs is one thing (stream of arrows), outright nerfing our only value of any sort (DPS) by over 1/3 makes absolutely no sense at all.<div></div>

[leafnin]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kala Asuras wrote:I have seen it mentioned in this thread that this change should only be effecting our precise shot and tripple arrow lines but this is not the case.  I posted somewhere on page 1 i believe a quick test that i did last night.  The CAs i tested were procing MUCH less than would be expected even if the two and three shot CAs were only counting as on.  There was another change that didn't get mentioned in the update notes.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>It's called 'normalization' I saw this called for alot on Hunters in WoW ,when I played just to play and not for anything serious, as they pretty much have crits that go off more on a longer delay weapon there by making faster bows useless.  As was mentioned as a possiblity in the Swashie boards is that they are useing CA cast times.  That's just someone else's theory, but it could be a possiblity.  I think someone is banking on crits making up for the drop in damage and it's isn't happening cause when you introduce a new game mechanic that functions like procs then go and change procs.  Guess what happens it doesn't make up for the loss of damage, McFly.  The other theory is that crits were happening just as much as procs upping the output even more for us so why not change the way the proc mechanic works to test it.  Did anyone in Beta notice an increase in damage high hits?  This was just a thought I have don't take too seriously <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Falcon</p><p>60 Ranger</p><p>Kithicor </p>

[coltla]

I wish the devs listened. It took months to get Rangers fixed the first time, and then they come back with this. Tier 3 DPS, Teir 1 DPS, back to Tier 3.

[AratornCalahn]

<div></div>[Removed for Content]?I was expecting a little posion nerf cos of the nubmers I see, and what SOE likes to do <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... but if this nerf goes live, HOLY OUCH!(Yes I am a brigand and dont want to see rangers nerfed)<div></div><p>Message Edited by AratornCalahn on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:38 AM</span></p>

[Moncreat]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>When I started playing a ranger over 6 years ago in EQ1 it was something I had always wanted to play.  I marveled at the way druids and wizards could kite 4 mobs at once and use their AE damage to damage all of them.</p><p>I learned how to kite single mobs and got really good at it. I never hated other char because of the things they could do that I could not.  AE damage was cool for those guys, I never would get invited to those AE groups unless they wanted someone to hold agro while they AE the mobs and rangers could almost take agro from anyone.</p><p>I looked forward to starting a ranger in EQ2.  I am level 58 now.  I have adapted to all the changes that they made.  At first I tried kiting mobs that were a level higher than myself and learned how to do that and then the changed the CAs so we could not really do that so I changed my style.  I still marveled at the power of other Char that can take down a whole group of mobs in just a few spells and never once complained.</p><p>I have several alts.  Mystic, Brawler, Berserker and Conjuror ( which I never understood why this class always claims that they soloed this and that mob when they know they are duoing with thier pet... :lol )</p><p>LU19 took about 400 - 500 hp away from me and gave me about 300 more power.  Our recast times on many of our CA's got longer in other LUs but again I have adapted and still never once complained about other char and still marvel at friends of mine that can solo a group of mobs that I would never think of trying to do.</p><p>I agree with the fact that if others are complaining they need to bring them up to par not lower other classes.  I find it funny that they said they were going to make the NPC mobs closer to their rank in damage and resists but yet I can now be hit by almost every cast of a mob 10 levels below me even if I have good resists and I am not talking about just poisons.  When a mob 7 levels below me can crush me for over 1000 hp just because he is heroic.  It makes me wonder how much gear to I need to get to become heroic.  :lol</p><p>I really have not seen that many rangers brag about being the best class or anything but most rangers learn to do their job and do it well because they work at it. As I am sure other classes become good at what they do because they work at it also.</p><p>Poisons say they have a certain percent chance to proc on ANY Successful hit so for those that are claiming this is a bug that needs to be fixed then they need to fix the wording on the poisons</p><p>I am unhappy with what I am reading since I do a lot of soloing and enjoy grouping from time to time if I want to have a chance at any good loot...lord knows that since they nerfed the way loot drops we don't have a chance at that either by soloing...lol</p><p>I will just have to wait and see how things happen.  I have been playing a ranger as my main for a long time and would hate to stop, I will try to adapt but if I can't I have not decided what I might choose to do, I guess I could go play a wizard.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Moncreathe on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:47 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Moncreathe on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:50 AM</span></p>

[illum]

<div>I've just cancelled my preorder for myself and my wife, and a few of my friends have just cancelled their preorders as well just from disgust.  Not sure about my friends, but when my subscription runs out, I'll probably take a break until Vanguard comes out...try that out for a year to see if they screw up as bad as SOE has with EQ2...hopefully not, but if so I'll just go back to single player RPG's or just keep it to FPS and strategy games for online.</div><div> </div><div>if I was paying nothing, I'd be more willing to put up with this nonsense...but I'm giving my hard earned money to have "fun" playing EQ2, and I'm not going to pay someone's wages if all they want to do is to continue to give me the shaft.</div>

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:i just had a vision of a tombstone saying:<hr size="2" width="100%">R.I.P.Rangers(LU13-LU20)"and the wizards cried, nerf rangers!"<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div><hr></blockquote>Honestly, it's not that wizards hate rangers, it's that they're frustrated by the fact they have been told time and again they're T1 damage and they're consistantly T3 or lower.. behind everyone and his uncle no matter if you figure burst or sustained. . even if you count in the damage shield, the tiny fire proc cast on others, and the -few- buffs.As a wizard (who also has a ranger, albiet lower level), I don't want to see rangers "nerfed", but proc counts exceeding available procs -is- a bug and procs with the bow because another weapon held has a proc (i.e. the bow procing the granite tomahawk) isn't intended. In my opinion, EACH "real" arrow should carry with it the chance to do applied poison damage just as each swing of of a blade (in -either- hand) should.  If it uses up an arrow out of your bag and isn't a non-component "shadow", it should have a chance to proc an applied poison whether or not it procs an item or CA related effect. </span></div><hr></blockquote>I already said this but ill say it again. i dont [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing care how i do my dmg, i just want to be tier1 dps.The nerf should hit Triple and Precise, but in fact it hit every CA .. so CAs are close to NOT-proccing poisons. in a heroic fight witha group i proc max 1-2 times the poison that used to proc on every shot.But its particularly nice to see that Rangers dont call for Wizards nerf, but for fixing their class while wizards cried so bad that we should be nerfed i thought i was in kindergarten inhabited by trolls made of greed and envy.Everybody picks the class they enjoy for some particular reasons (except for the few kids out there who wanna be superchar). Well i picked a ranger because i only want to do DPS (with the least utility except dps).They took that away by making rangers USELESS IN COMPARISON on beta atm. and i would really like to drive by some devs house and show them the devastating effects of english longbows.</span><div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><p>I hope the other scout classes took note of the testing someone did here.  If they did also change the chance to proc to be based on the skill and no longer the weapon all scouts are getting nerf'd.  Assassins, Brigands and Swashys with their .5 sec delay melee skills will never proc anything off those skills again.</p><p> </p>

[BSbon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Kala Asuras wrote:It seems to be worse than what they stated in the update notes.  They may be counting the CA for their cast length instead of the delay on the bow.  I logged in last night after the patch but before they put up the notes and noticed something wrong right away.  I messed around and came up with these numbers, not enough to make a conclusion but it is a cause for worry.Culling the Weak23 shots4 poison procs5 quick shot procs2 gleaming strikesPrecise Shot10 shots2 poison procs4 quick shot procs0 gleamig strikesTripple Arrow26 shots1 poison proc!!2 quick shot procs1 gleaming strikesNow compair those to the regular ranged auto attack.Auto Attack39 shots27 poison procs32 quick shot procs7 gleaming strikes<div></div><hr></blockquote>those numbers are correct.and thats why we are about tier3 dps right now in KoS, our AAs dont work still, we only got 2 good ones that dont work atm, the rest is pretty lame. while other classes get tremendous aas we're even [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up by decreasing poisons and procs.my new dps line would be something like:conju > necro > wiz / war > bruiser > monk > brigand / assa / swashi / ranger > guardian</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I like that list of DPS by class you wrote up. too bad it's wrong. i have used poisons only 4 times in the past. i dont need them. sure it would be faster to kill stuff using poisons but i can already solo kill faster than 2 necros. last night in EF i was killing explorers and wolves faster than a team of 2 necros. one of them is 1 level higher than me and one was the same level as me. the only thing keeping me from going faster was CA refresh and lack of mobs. just be happy you can use poisons.</p><p>bongo</p>

[Lexan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Kala Asuras wrote:It seems to be worse than what they stated in the update notes.  They may be counting the CA for their cast length instead of the delay on the bow.  I logged in last night after the patch but before they put up the notes and noticed something wrong right away.  I messed around and came up with these numbers, not enough to make a conclusion but it is a cause for worry.Culling the Weak23 shots4 poison procs5 quick shot procs2 gleaming strikesPrecise Shot10 shots2 poison procs4 quick shot procs0 gleamig strikesTripple Arrow26 shots1 poison proc!!2 quick shot procs1 gleaming strikesNow compair those to the regular ranged auto attack.Auto Attack39 shots27 poison procs32 quick shot procs7 gleaming strikes<div></div><hr></blockquote>those numbers are correct.and thats why we are about tier3 dps right now in KoS, our AAs dont work still, we only got 2 good ones that dont work atm, the rest is pretty lame. while other classes get tremendous aas we're even [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up by decreasing poisons and procs.my new dps line would be something like:conju > necro > wiz / war > bruiser > monk > brigand / assa / swashi / ranger > guardian</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I like that list of DPS by class you wrote up. too bad it's wrong. i have used poisons only 4 times in the past. i dont need them. sure it would be faster to kill stuff using poisons but i can already solo kill faster than 2 necros. last night in EF i was killing explorers and wolves faster than a team of 2 necros. one of them is 1 level higher than me and one was the same level as me. the only thing keeping me from going faster was CA refresh and lack of mobs. just be happy you can use poisons.</p><p>bongo</p><hr></blockquote><p>Bongo ask yourself something here.  There are 4 pages of rangers canceling there accounts.  There are 4 pages of rangers really really upset over this. </p><p>You dont think this effects you?</p><p> </p><p>YOUR A DUMB [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!!!!</p>

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Kala Asuras wrote:It seems to be worse than what they stated in the update notes.  They may be counting the CA for their cast length instead of the delay on the bow.  I logged in last night after the patch but before they put up the notes and noticed something wrong right away.  I messed around and came up with these numbers, not enough to make a conclusion but it is a cause for worry.Culling the Weak23 shots4 poison procs5 quick shot procs2 gleaming strikesPrecise Shot10 shots2 poison procs4 quick shot procs0 gleamig strikesTripple Arrow26 shots1 poison proc!!2 quick shot procs1 gleaming strikesNow compair those to the regular ranged auto attack.Auto Attack39 shots27 poison procs32 quick shot procs7 gleaming strikes<div></div><hr></blockquote>those numbers are correct.and thats why we are about tier3 dps right now in KoS, our AAs dont work still, we only got 2 good ones that dont work atm, the rest is pretty lame. while other classes get tremendous aas we're even [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up by decreasing poisons and procs.my new dps line would be something like:conju > necro > wiz / war > bruiser > monk > brigand / assa / swashi / ranger > guardian</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I like that list of DPS by class you wrote up. too bad it's wrong. i have used poisons only 4 times in the past. i dont need them. sure it would be faster to kill stuff using poisons but i can already solo kill faster than 2 necros. last night in EF i was killing explorers and wolves faster than a team of 2 necros. one of them is 1 level higher than me and one was the same level as me. the only thing keeping me from going faster was CA refresh and lack of mobs. just be happy you can use poisons.</p><p>bongo</p><hr></blockquote>well thanks for not reading my posts.first -- this is on beta server and those ranking was due to parsed numbers of lv 70 players i was grouping withsecond -- i dont compare classes via who kills faster because that info counts [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], list up parsed DPS numbers of you and the necrosthird -- get to 60+, play beta for over 80 hours</span><div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><div>Rangers will see a new sponser on the eq splash screen when they login...</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://home.alltel.net/%20jason48/ASTROGLIDE.jpg"></div>

[Taubin]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div><div>Rangers will see a new sponser on the eq splash screen when they login...</div><div> </div><div><img src="http://home.alltel.net/%20jason48/ASTROGLIDE.jpg"></div><hr></blockquote>OMG that's freaking funny, I don't care who you are</span></div>

[BSbon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lexani- wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Kala Asuras wrote:It seems to be worse than what they stated in the update notes.  They may be counting the CA for their cast length instead of the delay on the bow.  I logged in last night after the patch but before they put up the notes and noticed something wrong right away.  I messed around and came up with these numbers, not enough to make a conclusion but it is a cause for worry.Culling the Weak23 shots4 poison procs5 quick shot procs2 gleaming strikesPrecise Shot10 shots2 poison procs4 quick shot procs0 gleamig strikesTripple Arrow26 shots1 poison proc!!2 quick shot procs1 gleaming strikesNow compair those to the regular ranged auto attack.Auto Attack39 shots27 poison procs32 quick shot procs7 gleaming strikes<div></div><hr></blockquote>those numbers are correct.and thats why we are about tier3 dps right now in KoS, our AAs dont work still, we only got 2 good ones that dont work atm, the rest is pretty lame. while other classes get tremendous aas we're even [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up by decreasing poisons and procs.my new dps line would be something like:conju > necro > wiz / war > bruiser > monk > brigand / assa / swashi / ranger > guardian</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I like that list of DPS by class you wrote up. too bad it's wrong. i have used poisons only 4 times in the past. i dont need them. sure it would be faster to kill stuff using poisons but i can already solo kill faster than 2 necros. last night in EF i was killing explorers and wolves faster than a team of 2 necros. one of them is 1 level higher than me and one was the same level as me. the only thing keeping me from going faster was CA refresh and lack of mobs. just be happy you can use poisons.</p><p>bongo</p><hr></blockquote><p>Bongo ask yourself something here.  There are 4 pages of rangers canceling there accounts.  There are 4 pages of rangers really really upset over this. </p><p>You dont think this effects you?</p><p> </p><p>YOUR A DUMB [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!!!!</p><hr></blockquote><p>oooh. name calling. that's mature.  yes i hate when things get totally revamped every 3 months. and if 4 pages of rangers wanna quit then go quit. then the server population lag will decrease. but if i dont use poisons then changing poisons doesn't affect me.</p><p>bongo</p>

[Bayler_x]

This is not a bug fix.  This is a radical change to several of the fundemental mechanics of the game - mechanics on which our class has been built *twice* (release, and LU#13).Yet another case of SOE not understanding the mechanics they create, and not understanding the impact of their changes to those mechanics.  I've said it before: SOE's designers are great at creating immersive worlds, but they don't have anyone who understands *systems*.Rijacki - this isn't about melee weapons procing from bows; that was nerfed a while back, and it was reasonable.  This is about eliminating procs.  But it's a combination of several changes whose amplify each other.In groups, this will pretty much look just like a reduction in damage output.  Solo, we'll go back to the old predator days where we open with a bow shot and then melee for most of the mob's life.  We'll no longer live by the bow.  Soloing white- mobs will likely be exceedingly dangerous now.This is a much, much bigger change than is appropriate.  My estimate is that we'll have 1/3 of the damage output we used to have.<div></div>

[KannaWhoopass]

<div></div><p>Ill wait for the happy go lucky rangers to hop on and tell me that its all good ..this is a positive change look on the bright side......</p><p> </p><p>As for me if this goes live i quit.</p><p>I will delete all of my chars in disgust ..then purge the game from my computer .</p><p>Let me guess how it will go down .... KOS will be released as is now ...</p><p>try to get as much cash as possible before the nerf goes in ... and peopel leave .... is that why the servers were merged ... so after the rangers leave the populations will be back to normal ....</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Fennir]

<div></div>Heh, the bright side is cheaper poison costs and easier agro management.I'm not saying its not a harsh nerf... it hurts...  but I personally enjoy playing my ranger a lot and enjoyed him still pre-LU#13 so I have no reason to quit.Not gonna try and stop anyone, though.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:40 PM</span></p>

[Daxtyr_AnnonTuri]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:Screw it, i love my ranger anyway he kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I dont care what any parser says.<hr></blockquote></span>well you are the one who started the thread <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=94709">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=94709</a>and you were sure as hell worried then.-Dax</span><div></div>

[smoody]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>.....</p><p>oooh. name calling. that's mature.  yes i hate when things get totally revamped every 3 months. and if 4 pages of rangers wanna quit then go quit. then the server population lag will decrease. but if i dont use poisons then changing poisons doesn't affect me.</p></blockquote><p>bongo</p><hr></blockquote><p>Bongo,</p><p>You have to be kidding! A ranger who doesn't use poisons? You are essentially stating that you don't understand your class. Poisons make up 40% of our damage output! The last time I checked, damage is the only thing we bring to groups. So why would you leave 40% of your DPS at home? If a conjuror was in a group and didn't summon his pet, he would/should be invited to leave the group. The same should apply to a ranger who isn't using poisons!</p><p>A change which decreases our DPS is and should be considered a major deal. Like many other people here, I don't care how SOE gets us to T1 DPS. As long as we can get there, I will adapt and continue. The day I am no longer T1 DPS is the day the ranger becomes useless. People will not have a reason to include the ranger in a group or raid. I remember well the days before LU13 when a raid invite was only available to a ranger if there wasn't someone else available. That has changed now, people want the ranger on the raid for the DPS!</p><p>My attitude is wait and see. The reason for beta is to test and adjust things before going live so that they work as intended. Hopefully, things will get ironed out and we will be in the appropriate damage tier once the expansion is released.</p><p>Fredethel</p>

[rolento]

<div></div><div>Ok, i have read 4 pages of complaints and i must step in since i have a 3rd party view of all this.  My brother is a Ranger, and he has the add on that shows his DPS vs every other class in the game on raids.  You know what the results are? His DPS is about 20% higher then the next person who is a Necro.  I have seen my brother raid and fight and kill, and frankly it had to be toned down.  Now i dont know if this is going to cripple you all, if it does, then yes maybe it should be looked at, BUT, you all have to be honest with yourselves.  You cant sit there and tell me that Rangers were NOT overpowered in PvE.   My brother has the DPS charts to back it up. </div><div> </div><div>Now, If this poison proc nerft knocks you guys completely out of the Top 5 DPS then it may be harsh, BUT its completely insane to say that the way it was before was legit and the way it was meant to be. Simply not True, Every class gets fixed at one time or another, Rangers were obviously to overpowered and needed to be toned down. Its a matter of how bad you were hit.  If its true that when this goes live as is, and you cant even compete with other top DPS classes that were MADE for DPS, then you have a right to complain, but right now the class was simply to powerful.</div><div> </div><div>My brother simply dominates in DPS and NEVER is not in the top spot.</div><p>Message Edited by rolento on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:01 PM</span></p>

[coltla]

The last round of changes had us on the level, now they're seeking to have us leveled.

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>rolento wrote:<div>Ok, i have read 4 pages of complaints and i must step in since i have a 3rd party view of all this.  My brother is a Ranger, and he has the add on that shows his DPS vs every other class in the game on raids.  You know what the results are? His DPS is about 20% higher then the next person who is a Necro.  I have seen my brother raid and fight and kill, and frankly it had to be toned down.  Now i dont know if this is going to cripple you all, if it does, then yes maybe it should be looked at, BUT, you all have to be honest with yourselves.  You cant sit there and tell me that Rangers were NOT overpowered in PvE.   My brother has the DPS charts to back it up. </div><div> </div><div>Now, If this poison proc nerft knocks you guys completely out of the Top 5 DPS then it may be harsh, BUT its completely insane to say that the way it was before was legit and the way it was meant to be. Simply not True, Every class gets fixed at one time or another, Rangers were obviously to overpowered and needed to be toned down. Its a matter of how bad you were hit.  If its true that when this goes live as is, and you cant even compete with other top DPS classes that were MADE for DPS, then you have a right to complain, but right now the class was simply to powerful</div><hr></blockquote>Most folks here would agree that we need to be toned down a bit in dps...  but not nutered.

[theorbell]

<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><hr></blockquote>Most folks here would agree that we need to be toned down a bit in dps...  but not nutered.<hr></blockquote>/agree

[rolento]

<div></div><div>They have been doing many many good things to improve this game, and im sure that if they see what they have done has crippled your class as you say, then they will do something to adjust it a bit to make it better.  All i can say is give it some time and a chance, test it all out yourselves when it goes live, then post your feedback.</div>

[Memory]

Theres just so much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] going on about rangers atm on the boards all over.So id suggest that we all post the crap out of the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to reach at least being seen as a lot of people [Removed for Content] off by those changes.the point most people miss is, that we dont care the nerf if we are Tier1 and balanced with wiz / warlocks, but being broken down to tier3 really just is too much.<div></div>

[Magus_Bl]

<div>Brigand here... and I don't want to speak for all other Brigands, but our DPS is not nearly as proc dependant as yours has been.</div><div>In general I use 1.2-1.4 second delay dual wields for my dps.  So yeah.. .5 sec combat arts will cause us to proc less than we have been, and our dps will take a hit, but it's not going to be that devastating imo.  Sometimes I'll go for a while (even soloing ^^^ blue mobs like I was last night) without even noticing my adeste's is down...</div><div> </div>

[Terdrigar]

<div></div><div>Yes it's bad news, I feel sorry for the guy who leveled a ranger because he was upset with the changes to his guardian.  With these changes combined with some of the abilities given when kos goes live you wonder whether anyone at SOE ever talks to each other=(.</div><p>Message Edited by Terdrigar on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:21 PM</span></p>

[Ranja]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>rolento wrote:<div></div><div>Ok, i have read 4 pages of complaints and i must step in since i have a 3rd party view of all this.  My brother is a Ranger, and he has the add on that shows his DPS vs every other class in the game on raids.  You know what the results are? His DPS is about 20% higher then the next person who is a Necro.  I have seen my brother raid and fight and kill, and frankly it had to be toned down.  Now i dont know if this is going to cripple you all, if it does, then yes maybe it should be looked at, BUT, you all have to be honest with yourselves.  You cant sit there and tell me that Rangers were NOT overpowered in PvE.   My brother has the DPS charts to back it up. </div><div> </div><div>Now, If this poison proc nerft knocks you guys completely out of the Top 5 DPS then it may be harsh, BUT its completely insane to say that the way it was before was legit and the way it was meant to be. Simply not True, Every class gets fixed at one time or another, Rangers were obviously to overpowered and needed to be toned down. Its a matter of how bad you were hit.  If its true that when this goes live as is, and you cant even compete with other top DPS classes that were MADE for DPS, then you have a right to complain, but right now the class was simply to powerful.</div><div> </div><div>My brother simply dominates in DPS and NEVER is not in the top spot.</div><p>Message Edited by rolento on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I dont think many rangers are arguing this. The main point is that these changes are so over the top that it will destroy our class. Minor tweaks here and there were needed but something as broad as no procs except on first attack will cripple the rangers. What is more aggravating is the way SOE makes these changes - with broad sweeping strokes without ever thinking them through.</p><p>What is worse is that this will go through and then in 6 months they will change it again, and then in 6 months it will be changed again. These changes make several of our skills completely useless - Stream of Celery Stalks anyone.</p><p>You are right now Ranger in their right mind can argue that we were not uber DPS. But, these are way over the top. Rangers are built on procs and it was the way everyone that was a Ranger designed and equipped their class.</p><p>Rangers will need a boost in CA damage if this goes live which I doubt will happen. That is why we are so upset.</p><p> </p><p>Elbryan60 Ranger</p><p></p>

[Carna]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>rolento wrote:<div></div><div>They have been doing many many good things to improve this game, and im sure that if they see what they have done has crippled your class as you say, then they will do something to adjust it a bit to make it better.  All i can say is give it some time and a chance, test it all out yourselves when it goes live, then post your feedback.</div><hr></blockquote><p>No.</p><p>They have a beta server and process to ensure that the product and service I pay for is fit for purpose at the point it's delivered. I've no idea why the notion that a paying customer to be paying for the period where something is tested and ironed out, or indeed pay for the period over which a breaking problem will be discovered is presented as a reasonable notion. It's not.</p><p>Test it on beta until you're sure it works. Then deliver it and we can decided if we want to pay for it.... the record of EQ2 on mechanic tweaking since launch is appauling. They had to overhaul the entire game once already.</p>

[Blackin_DeMast]

<div></div><div>THE END IS NEAR!!!  REPENT NOW!!!</div><div> </div><div>lol</div>

[Rahmn]

<div></div>In regards to Stream of Arrows, the way I read the update is that the proc has a chance to go off everytime a CA is cast, since Stream Shot casts every 1.5 secs, will we have a chance to proc at each casting? 

[Memory]

stream is broken aswell. if ya proc something the streams get interrupted and take a break for some secs<div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Daxtyr_AnnonTuri wrote:<span><span><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:Screw it, i love my ranger anyway he kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I dont care what any parser says.<hr></blockquote></span>well you are the one who started the thread <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=94709" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=94709</a>and you were sure as hell worried then.-Dax</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yep it sucks and i'm [Removed for Content], doesnt change the fact that I love the ranger class.I've played once since the game was released. The only way he'll not be my main is if I quit.

[mill94]

<div></div>Swashbuckler15,702Brigand7,700Troubador12,917Dirge 13,220Ranger33,421Assassin19,504From eq census.All the rangers are going to leave? Whoah, and here i thought that ranger was the only scout proffession!<div></div>

[Jayad]

<div></div><p>I'm cancelling my KOS order.  If this goes live, I am cancelling the eq2 subscription and am done with it. </p><p>The idea that this is a "bug" is a joke.  It has been this way for half a year.  Every high level ranger has known exactly how it has worked, so I can't imagine SOE suddenly "discovered" this bug and needed to fix it, like it was something new.</p><p>Sure, I could play my necro, but if this goes live there is no way I would trust SOE with any more of my game dollars or time.   It's funny that summoners do nearly as much DPS and they're not even tier 1, yet rangers who are T1 get the big nerf stick.</p><p> </p>

[Blackin_DeMast]

<div></div>Yeah.  If you want DPS <strong>do not</strong> go to a necro or conjuror.  I expect them to be the next targets of the Nerf bat.  Best bet for DPS is probably wizzy or warlock for now.  Or just stick witht he ranger and make the most of it.  I personally would never switch to a finger-wigler so I'll just stick with the Ranger.  Even if we are Tier 3 DPS afer LU #20.

[Deml]

<div></div><p>I read the first 2.5 pages of this thread and then started skimming because it was making my head hurt with some of the people coming in to celebrate about this.  For that reason, this may have already been stated, sorry if it has.</p><p>This is a 2 prong change.  The first part is what was stated, procs will only go off from the 1st attack of any CA.  That means it will only give us 1 chance at a proc on Triple arrow and precise shot, who knows how it will affect Stream.  It will be interesting to see how Natural Selection and Storm of Arrows are changed by this since they are 1 shot, ae skills.</p><p>The second change going in, which is giving Kala the low proc #'s she posted was that they are changing how procs work for CA's in that they use the casting time of the CA to determine your % chance to proc rather than the weapon used.  So a skill like Snaring shot with a 0.5-1 sec cast time uses that as the delay, rather than the 7 of the bow required to use it.  That's why you were seeing more procs from autoattack, it still uses the 7 sec delay of the bow.</p><p>The results of this are that high DoT poisons will be useful again and also, it means people might have a reason to choose short bows instead of long bows if they wish, for the faster autoattack.  It also means that haste will be more important to Rangers again.</p><p>Now, I realize all of this is still on the beta servers and not on live, but between the comments from the Dev's & the fact that there is 1 week till KoS release and LU20, you can bet money this will go live.</p><p>We (Rangers) needed as drop in dps to put us in line with everyone else, but this is an extreme drop in our dps.  Really need some feedback on how this is affecting Stream, Storm and Selection if Kala, Khalan or anyone else in Beta can let us know.</p>

[Vacan]

<div></div><p>mill9469</p><p>I also have a Swashbuckler and I'll tell you that I like him better for multi mob situations. He has good dps. Not as high as a ranger that is doing the bow damage but then lower level rangers suck compared to him soloing. I think he has more utility also.</p><p>I also have a Wizard and I think they need some work especially since the nerfed roots so they break to much. But he's fun to play and can do some great damage. I find I don't take any more damage with my Wiz than I do with my ranger when soloing. One thing is nice I don't have to buy anything to do damage.</p>

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>Demlar wrote:<div></div><p>I read the first 2.5 pages of this thread and then started skimming because it was making my head hurt with some of the people coming in to celebrate about this.  For that reason, this may have already been stated, sorry if it has.</p><p>This is a 2 prong change.  The first part is what was stated, procs will only go off from the 1st attack of any CA.  That means it will only give us 1 chance at a proc on Triple arrow and precise shot, who knows how it will affect Stream.  It will be interesting to see how Natural Selection and Storm of Arrows are changed by this since they are 1 shot, ae skills.</p><p>The second change going in, which is giving Kala the low proc #'s she posted was that they are changing how procs work for CA's in that they use the casting time of the CA to determine your % chance to proc rather than the weapon used.  So a skill like Snaring shot with a 0.5-1 sec cast time uses that as the delay, rather than the 7 of the bow required to use it.  That's why you were seeing more procs from autoattack, it still uses the 7 sec delay of the bow.</p><p>The results of this are that high DoT poisons will be useful again and also, it means people might have a reason to choose short bows instead of long bows if they wish, for the faster autoattack.  It also means that haste will be more important to Rangers again.</p><p>Now, I realize all of this is still on the beta servers and not on live, but between the comments from the Dev's & the fact that there is 1 week till KoS release and LU20, you can bet money this will go live.</p><p>We (Rangers) needed as drop in dps to put us in line with everyone else, but this is an extreme drop in our dps.  Really need some feedback on how this is affecting Stream, Storm and Selection if Kala, Khalan or anyone else in Beta can let us know.</p><hr></blockquote>you might want to scroll back and read my posts.im in beta, spent there dozens over dozens of hours.to answer your questions:-) stream currently appears a bit broken because the animation of a proc interupts following streamshots for about 2 sec-) storm and selection lines seem to be affected by the first hit proc change, but its hard to confirm since i only get 1-2 poison procs while doing 25k dmg.Summary: its [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bad situation we got on beta.</span><div></div>

[scivias]

Hello <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I won't pretend I'm not smiling at the moment and I don't care about the all so polite "I share your pain" correctness, but I'd like to repeat something I said many a times before.Rangers, ere this change, were not balanced to other Tier1 classes. Ranger relied on procs way too much to make the process of balancing supposed Tier1 classes with simple changes, since their damage came from a part that had no origin in anything like recast timer or actual damage of a CA.But there is good news behind this, this change brings rangers back in line with a predictable damage output to other scouts and mages, who are also pretty predictable in their damage output.I think it's only fair to assume that, after the rumble subsides, the much easier part of balancing through increased CA damage will take place, this change is more or less for the solemn reason of making balancing "possible".Patience <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Memory]

no patience for people that cant think ahead of their actionsno patience 5 days be4 release of an expansionsummary: no patience<div></div>

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>scivias wrote:But there is good news behind this, this change brings rangers back in line with a predictable damage output to other scouts and mages<div></div><hr></blockquote>No, we're not "back in line" this puts us <b>at the back of the line</b>.

[scivias]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>coltlane wrote:No, we're not "back in line" this puts us <b>at the back of the line</b>.<hr></blockquote>I said "</span>back in line with a predictable damage output". You are talking about line of the momentary damage, I am talking about the line of "predictable" and dependend damage. This nerf is not about "rangers should fall behind in damage output" but about "rangers should be balanced to the other tier1s. And in order to do this the weird effect of rangers damage, that they rely on procs way off the road, had to be adressed. In the aftermaths it will be about rearranging ca damage and cast/recast., likewise to all other classes now.</div>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>scivias wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>coltlane wrote:No, we're not "back in line" this puts us <b>at the back of the line</b>.<hr></blockquote>I said "</span>back in line with a predictable damage output". You are talking about line of the momentary damage, I am talking about the line of "predictable" and dependend damage. This nerf is not about "rangers should fall behind in damage output" but about "rangers should be balanced to the other tier1s. And in order to do this the weird effect of rangers damage, that they rely on procs way off the road, had to be adressed. In the aftermaths it will be about rearranging ca damage and cast/recast., likewise to all other classes now.</div><hr></blockquote>Yeah lets just wait another 6 months on that shall we. Maybe then almost 2 years after the game has been released SoE will stop making drastic changes to game mechanics.

[BSbon]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>smoody wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p>.....</p><p>oooh. name calling. that's mature.  yes i hate when things get totally revamped every 3 months. and if 4 pages of rangers wanna quit then go quit. then the server population lag will decrease. but if i dont use poisons then changing poisons doesn't affect me.</p></blockquote><p>bongo</p><hr></blockquote><p>Bongo,</p><p>You have to be kidding! A ranger who doesn't use poisons? You are essentially stating that you don't understand your class. Poisons make up 40% of our damage output! The last time I checked, damage is the only thing we bring to groups. So why would you leave 40% of your DPS at home? If a conjuror was in a group and didn't summon his pet, he would/should be invited to leave the group. The same should apply to a ranger who isn't using poisons!</p><p>A change which decreases our DPS is and should be considered a major deal. Like many other people here, I don't care how SOE gets us to T1 DPS. As long as we can get there, I will adapt and continue. The day I am no longer T1 DPS is the day the ranger becomes useless. People will not have a reason to include the ranger in a group or raid. I remember well the days before LU13 when a raid invite was only available to a ranger if there wasn't someone else available. That has changed now, people want the ranger on the raid for the DPS!</p><p>My attitude is wait and see. The reason for beta is to test and adjust things before going live so that they work as intended. Hopefully, things will get ironed out and we will be in the appropriate damage tier once the expansion is released.</p><p>Fredethel</p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, i never claimed to be a perfect ranger. none of us are. i've seen numerous posts of rangers not using melee attacks. as for why i dont use poisons. it's because i dont have to. blue to white con stuff dies before it gets to me about 50% of the time. yellow con stuff gets to me and gets stunned. i then cut it down from behind. i might get hit once or twice from the stuff that makes it to me. so why do i need poisons? it's money i'd rather use on masters. if i ever raid and the mob lasts more than 2 minutes i'll start thinking about using poisons.</p><p> </p><p>bongo</p>

[Force Weaver]

<div></div><p>There's still time for SOE to change their minds... <font color="#ff3399">Beta-Beta-Beta</font>...</p><p>Instead of Dropping Sorcerer Casting Times they're Nerfing Ranger Procs.... Easier EQ2 coding change = SOE's Initial Decision</p><p>Scout classes are fine as they are right now, <font color="#cccc66">nerfing us isn't the answer...</font> Power up the ones that are lagging a bit....</p><p><font color="#66ff33">SOE can always give mobs more HP's "behind the curtains" with server updates...</font></p><p>Making the Scouting community have to adapt new play styles in the upper levels will increase account cancellations...</p><p>Save the rangers, keep the procs as they are and instead drop the Sorc casting times...</p><p>Everyone goes home happy :smileyhappy:</p>

[TalenMorg]

I'm really tired of continuing to pay SOE for a clearly beta product. I love playing my ranger my main was an SK till I realized how gimped they were in eq2. SO now my lvl 60 ranger has to relearn play styles again and to be honest I'm sick of adapting...I want to log on and have some fun withought having my class changed every 5 minutes. I don't even care if this nerf goes live at this point I'm gonna quit and hope one of the new games coming out can get it right or even close.<div></div>

[DmZB]

<div></div><p></p><hr>Terdrigar wrote:<p>Yes it's bad news, I feel sorry for the guy who leveled a ranger because he was upset with the changes to his guardian.</p><p></p><hr><p>LoL, too funny...oh wait...Thats me! /cries</p>

[KdB]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Visay1 wrote:<span class="headline">Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006<i> 2/14/2005 8:15 pm</i></span>*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack.Not only does it mean that we will see alot of Triple Shots oder Double shots without a single proc but atm it seems that Quick shot does not proc poison anymore.My proc rate is way down now and so is my damage. If this goes live our damage will take a serious hit. I have not done any parse right now but it feels like my damage is down by atleast 30%.T1:Conjurer>NecroT2:Assassin>Brigand>Swashbuckler>RangerT3:Wizard-Warlock....This seems to be the way SOE is going with this expansion. Lets just hope the procs are somehow bugged on beta.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't think a lot of Rangers fully understand yet, the GIGANTIC nerf that the beta changes represent. This change, pls the change to proc rates for combat arts, will probably cut ranger dps in half. IN HALF. Poison damage cut by a factor of 3. Quick Shot cut by a factor of 3. Gleaming Strike cut by a factor of 3. Stream of Arrows a mere shadow of its former self.</p><p>Yes folks, this IS the end of the class as we knew it.</p><p> </p>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KdBoy wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't think a lot of Rangers fully understand yet, the GIGANTIC nerf that the beta changes represent. This change, pls the change to proc rates for combat arts, will probably cut ranger dps in half. IN HALF. Poison damage cut by a factor of 3. Quick Shot cut by a factor of 3. Gleaming Strike cut by a factor of 3. Stream of Arrows a mere shadow of its former self.</p><p>Yes folks, this IS the end of the class as we knew it.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Okay, I'm just going to throw this in: you can prove this how, exactly? And no, this isn't an attack...I'm just trying to understand...</span></div>

[Memory]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KnightOfTheWord wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>KdBoy wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't think a lot of Rangers fully understand yet, the GIGANTIC nerf that the beta changes represent. This change, pls the change to proc rates for combat arts, will probably cut ranger dps in half. IN HALF. Poison damage cut by a factor of 3. Quick Shot cut by a factor of 3. Gleaming Strike cut by a factor of 3. Stream of Arrows a mere shadow of its former self.</p><p>Yes folks, this IS the end of the class as we knew it.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Okay, I'm just going to throw this in: you can prove this how, exactly? And no, this isn't an attack...I'm just trying to understand...</span></div><hr></blockquote>create a ranger on beta and see for yourself.i can just say that its true. no poison, no procs, no stream.so yes, we are lower tier 3 now !</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Memory01 on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:49 PM</span></p>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KnightOfTheWord wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>KdBoy wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I don't think a lot of Rangers fully understand yet, the GIGANTIC nerf that the beta changes represent. This change, pls the change to proc rates for combat arts, will probably cut ranger dps in half. IN HALF. Poison damage cut by a factor of 3. Quick Shot cut by a factor of 3. Gleaming Strike cut by a factor of 3. Stream of Arrows a mere shadow of its former self.</p><p>Yes folks, this IS the end of the class as we knew it.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Okay, I'm just going to throw this in: you can prove this how, exactly? And no, this isn't an attack...I'm just trying to understand...</span></div><hr></blockquote>create a ranger on beta and see for yourself.i can just say that its true. no poison, no procs, no stream.so yes, we are lower tier 3 now !</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Memory01 on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:49 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I have a Ranger on beta. DPS is not "probably reduced by half." Not sure where else to go with this...</span></div>

[Memory]

you got a parser ?tell me if ya get over 500 dps with ya lil ranger (except for hitting sniper shot on solo mobs)i got a lv 70 ranger, fully aa, fully master1 t6+t7, fully legendary/fabled t7 and i cant break the 650 dps in any case.since thats unrealistic situation you can expect dmg to be below 500 with a casual amount of masters and aa.<div></div>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:you got a parser ?tell me if ya get over 500 dps with ya lil ranger (except for hitting sniper shot on solo mobs)i got a lv 70 ranger, fully aa, fully master1 t6+t7, fully legendary/fabled t7 and i cant break the 650 dps in any case.since thats unrealistic situation you can expect dmg to be below 500 with a casual amount of masters and aa.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Since when were parsers actually accurate and dependable, in any situation? (Not trying to get into some kind of flame thread here, just calling the shots as I see them.) Since anything can be changed, maybe if you /feeback that stuff to the devs they will have you replicate the numbers for them and adjust. Or if they don't do anything, fine...I don't have the full uber Ranger on beta and I'm not the devs. I just don't see the sky is falling I guess. My two coppers' worth. Best of luck to ya in there <span>:smileyhappy:</span></span></div><p>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:00 PM</span></p>

[Memory]

im using 2 different ones.and if you want to discredit parsers, visit their developers, i for myself found them true and working just fine.if you would play a ranger on beta actually you would notice by the first solo mob you try to kill what our dps is at, even when estimating you should clearly see it, but i guess some people just dont want so see.<div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

OK lets cut to the chase here exactly how bad is it in terms of gameplay.With my lvl 60 Ranger I can take down a white con ^^^ heroic (1 mob not grps). Wizards can do the same as well, we're both tier 1 so no complaining please forum trolls.So whats the situation on Beta atm? How is our solo ability? Are we getting destroyed in terms of DPS by other classes?

[Sirlutt]

parsers are useful in so much as car dynos are useful ... for comparisons only.. the actual numbers mean little.. but if you had 900 before and cant break 500 now.. then it can measure that.<div></div>

[Memory]

thats what im talking about actually.in terms of soloability:if you use everything you got like snipers, trap, triple, precise, etc... you wont take down an even con heroic +++ at all. you would need some minutes of kiting at least, mostly that doesnt work either since even crappy dmg also breaks our snares.the most impressive thing ive done is created a new ranger, buffed to 60, bought all adept1, bought all handcrafted. then engaged a lv 57 <b>solo</b> mob and had to start kiting (i didnt use snipers)<div></div>

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:parsers are useful in so much as car dynos are useful ... for comparisons only.. the actual numbers mean little.. but if you had 900 before and cant break 500 now.. then it can measure that.<div></div><hr></blockquote>alright then.<u>i was in a raid taking down a contested lv 74 before the critical prof nerf patch that hit us. i was doing around 2k dps for over 5 min.</u><font size="2">shortly after servers went down and got patched.</font><b><u>then i was in a raid going to vyemms and parsed 660 dps.</u></b></span><div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:parsers are useful in so much as car dynos are useful ... for comparisons only.. the actual numbers mean little.. but if you had 900 before and cant break 500 now.. then it can measure that.<div></div><hr></blockquote>alright then.<u>i was in a raid taking down a contested lv 74 before the critical prof nerf patch that hit us. i was doing around 2k dps for over 5 min.</u><font size="2">shortly after servers went down and got patched.</font><b><u>then i was in a raid going to vyemms and parsed 660 dps.</u></b></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>How did this compare to the other T1 classes?

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:<blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:parsers are useful in so much as car dynos are useful ... for comparisons only.. the actual numbers mean little.. but if you had 900 before and cant break 500 now.. then it can measure that.<div></div><hr></blockquote>alright then.<u>i was in a raid taking down a contested lv 74 before the critical prof nerf patch that hit us. i was doing around 2k dps for over 5 min.</u><font size="2">shortly after servers went down and got patched.</font><b><u>then i was in a raid going to vyemms and parsed 660 dps.</u></b></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Wow....that is a huge hit. Are Summoners and Assasins still doing amazing dmg or has that been reduced aswell?</blockquote>

[Memory]

the conju and necro pets just by themselves were parsed at about 1,1k at the vyemms raid<div></div>

[Dejah]

<div></div><div>At the risk of being hanged, I am posting here.  I play a Wizard.</div><div> </div><div>Recently, my brother came back to EQ2, and he rolled a Ranger.  He started a month or so ago and the race was on to get him to 60 before the expansion hit.  While getting him to 60 I've learned a lot about the ranger class.  While rangers are (were?) awesome DPS, they lost any advantage they had once the mob got on to them.  Rangers can't cast bow abilities at point blank like casters can cast spells point blank, and while chain armor helps a little, a ranger is always in offensive stance and thus their defensive abilities are always gimped.  Ranger's also have 0 group buffs, the only way they can increase a raid's DPS is by doing it themselves, or by debuffing the mob.  And off the top of my head I only remember a heat debuff and a defense debuff.  I'm basically reiterating what every ranger has said here, that Ranger's offer very little utility to the group other than their DPS.  I don't consider out of combat abilities as real utility, because it doesn't help you win a fight (ie, evac, pathfinding, tracking, etc).</div><div> </div><div>Personally, the change to proc's isn't an unexpected one to me.  As a wizard, I was actually hoping to take advantage of the way they worked in the near future.  DoF introduced 4 spell proc items that I know about (two of which are primary hand weapons).  So simply from 3 DoF items I could eventually get 3 spell proc items.  I would only imagine that more of these types of items would be added with KoS.  I was looking forward to the day when I had 5 or so spell procs from items, dynamism, and the troubadour buff all making my procs proc like crazy like a ranger.  It would have been a sight to see for sure!  Imagine a wizard proc'ing 3 or 4 proc's every time they cast a spell; it would do insane things to wizard dps.  I knew though that this mechanic was bound to be fixed, because there is no way that SOE would let a wizard do that kind of extra damage simply by getting 4-5 specific items. </div><div> </div><div>I discussed with my brother the other day about our comparative DPS.  I told him that I didn't think Rangers needed a nerf, but I told him about my spell proc plans for the future.  I told him what SOE would probably do.  I also told him that if SOE did indeed fix proc's (I swear SOE was ease dropping in on our TeamSpeak server, because they did the two exact fixes I said they would probably do eventually) then they would have to boost the Ranger combat art damage to keep them inline with the tiers.</div><div> </div><div>Now as far as tiers go, prior to this change I didn't understand them.  I didn't know if they were still the intention or what.  I didn't know who was doing the right amount of damage or who was doing the wrong amount of damage.  I also didn't know if indirect damage (like a Wizard's Icebound Gift group spell proc or a troubadour group spell proc) was factored into these tiers.  I still don't know these things, but I have some guesses now. </div><div> </div><div>I think SOE believes that Sorcerer's DPS is where it should be.  The changes to the proc's bring Rangers more inline with Sorcerer's.  However, Ranger's Combat Arts will probably need a little boost still (I say probably because I'm not in beta and thus haven't seen the parses yet).  Ranger's should still be able to parse #1.  If that is not happening ever, then they need a boost in their Combat Art damage.  The reason Rangers perceive this as being nerfed down several tiers is because they are comparing it to classes that are not at their correct position for their tier.  If you feel bitter, feel free to call for a nerf of those classes, as it will happen regardless of whether or not you cry for it.</div><div> </div><div>I've addressed everything about this change except the change itself.  A lot of people don't understand what this change does to poisons for all scouts classes.  By using the skill's cast time to determine the chance to proc, and by limiting the chance to proc to only 1 time for a Combat Art, they are making the proc rate for all rogue and predator classes equal (ie, after 10min of fighting, all of them should have proc'd their poisons roughly the same number of times).  You may or may not be aware that Ranger's went through poisons a great deal faster than any other scout class because they were proc'ing far more often.  SOE's vision of the Ranger class is a scout that uses bows and arrows;  it is not their vision that Rangers are the "poison class" of the four scout classes that can use poison.  Poisons should and will benefit all four of the poison using scout classes equally after this update.  This is balance.  If this change creates an over-all imbalance in the DPS tiers due to weak Combat Art damage, then the Combat Arts will need to be improved.  Yes it sucks that your class is being changed in such a dramatic way.  Yes it sucks that SOE didn't pick up on this problem a long time ago when every player learned how to take advantage of it, and every player had already accepted it as how the thing was supposed to work. </div><div> </div><div>Voice your concerns by all means.  Post constructive criticism and fight for your right to be equal in damage with Assassins, Warlocks, and Wizards.  Or just play the game and have fun.  But if you're like me, and I think you are, then you feel passionately about your class and enjoy playing this game.  So stick around, give feedback, and make sure your fellow Rangers don't get left out in the cold. </div><div> </div><div>Finally, if you need a bright side to look at, think of it this way.  You won't go through as many poisons, thus saving you money.  Your damage won't rely on poison use as much, so your damage won't go down as much if you don't use poisons.  You're combat arts will probably receive a boost in damage.  And finally, you still have the best hate-reduction skills in the entire game.</div><div> </div><div>You're friendly neighborhood wizard,</div><div> </div><div>Dehah</div><div>Club Fu</div>

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote:<div></div><div>At the risk of being hanged, I am posting here.  I play a Wizard.</div><div> </div><div>Recently, my brother came back to EQ2, and he rolled a Ranger.  He started a month or so ago and the race was on to get him to 60 before the expansion hit.  While getting him to 60 I've learned a lot about the ranger class.  While rangers are (were?) awesome DPS, they lost any advantage they had once the mob got on to them.  Rangers can't cast bow abilities at point blank like casters can cast spells point blank, and while chain armor helps a little, a ranger is always in offensive stance and thus their defensive abilities are always gimped.  Ranger's also have 0 group buffs, the only way they can increase a raid's DPS is by doing it themselves, or by debuffing the mob.  And off the top of my head I only remember a heat debuff and a defense debuff.  I'm basically reiterating what every ranger has said here, that Ranger's offer very little utility to the group other than their DPS.  I don't consider out of combat abilities as real utility, because it doesn't help you win a fight (ie, evac, pathfinding, tracking, etc).</div><div> </div><div>Personally, the change to proc's isn't an unexpected one to me.  As a wizard, I was actually hoping to take advantage of the way they worked in the near future.  DoF introduced 4 spell proc items that I know about (two of which are primary hand weapons).  So simply from 3 DoF items I could eventually get 3 spell proc items.  I would only imagine that more of these types of items would be added with KoS.  I was looking forward to the day when I had 5 or so spell procs from items, dynamism, and the troubadour buff all making my procs proc like crazy like a ranger.  It would have been a sight to see for sure!  Imagine a wizard proc'ing 3 or 4 proc's every time they cast a spell; it would do insane things to wizard dps.  I knew though that this mechanic was bound to be fixed, because there is no way that SOE would let a wizard do that kind of extra damage simply by getting 4-5 specific items. </div><div> </div><div>I discussed with my brother the other day about our comparative DPS.  I told him that I didn't think Rangers needed a nerf, but I told him about my spell proc plans for the future.  I told him what SOE would probably do.  I also told him that if SOE did indeed fix proc's (I swear SOE was ease dropping in on our TeamSpeak server, because they did the two exact fixes I said they would probably do eventually) then they would have to boost the Ranger combat art damage to keep them inline with the tiers.</div><div> </div><div>Now as far as tiers go, prior to this change I didn't understand them.  I didn't know if they were still the intention or what.  I didn't know who was doing the right amount of damage or who was doing the wrong amount of damage.  I also didn't know if indirect damage (like a Wizard's Icebound Gift group spell proc or a troubadour group spell proc) was factored into these tiers.  I still don't know these things, but I have some guesses now. </div><div> </div><div>I think SOE believes that Sorcerer's DPS is where it should be.  The changes to the proc's bring Rangers more inline with Sorcerer's.  However, Ranger's Combat Arts will probably need a little boost still (I say probably because I'm not in beta and thus haven't seen the parses yet).  Ranger's should still be able to parse #1.  If that is not happening ever, then they need a boost in their Combat Art damage.  The reason Rangers perceive this as being nerfed down several tiers is because they are comparing it to classes that are not at their correct position for their tier.  If you feel bitter, feel free to call for a nerf of those classes, as it will happen regardless of whether or not you cry for it.</div><div> </div><div>I've addressed everything about this change except the change itself.  A lot of people don't understand what this change does to poisons for all scouts classes.  By using the skill's cast time to determine the chance to proc, and by limiting the chance to proc to only 1 time for a Combat Art, they are making the proc rate for all rogue and predator classes equal (ie, after 10min of fighting, all of them should have proc'd their poisons roughly the same number of times).  You may or may not be aware that Ranger's went through poisons a great deal faster than any other scout class because they were proc'ing far more often.  SOE's vision of the Ranger class is a scout that uses bows and arrows;  it is not their vision that Rangers are the "poison class" of the four scout classes that can use poison.  Poisons should and will benefit all four of the poison using scout classes equally after this update.  This is balance.  If this change creates an over-all imbalance in the DPS tiers due to weak Combat Art damage, then the Combat Arts will need to be improved.  Yes it sucks that your class is being changed in such a dramatic way.  Yes it sucks that SOE didn't pick up on this problem a long time ago when every player learned how to take advantage of it, and every player had already accepted it as how the thing was supposed to work. </div><div> </div><div>Voice your concerns by all means.  Post constructive criticism and fight for your right to be equal in damage with Assassins, Warlocks, and Wizards.  Or just play the game and have fun.  But if you're like me, and I think you are, then you feel passionately about your class and enjoy playing this game.  So stick around, give feedback, and make sure your fellow Rangers don't get left out in the cold. </div><div> </div><div>Finally, if you need a bright side to look at, think of it this way.  You won't go through as many poisons, thus saving you money.  Your damage won't rely on poison use as much, so your damage won't go down as much if you don't use poisons.  You're combat arts will probably receive a boost in damage.  And finally, you still have the best hate-reduction skills in the entire game.</div><div> </div><div>You're friendly neighborhood wizard,</div><div> </div><div>Dehah</div><div>Club Fu</div><hr></blockquote>/speachlessFriendly Wizard indeed!If they boost our CAs, I could probably live with this change. Stun poisons will still take a hit, but I wouldn't feel the same dread I've had all day.

[Memory]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote:<div></div><div>At the risk of being hanged, I am posting here.  I play a Wizard.</div><div> </div><div>Recently, my brother came back to EQ2, and he rolled a Ranger.  He started a month or so ago and the race was on to get him to 60 before the expansion hit.  While getting him to 60 I've learned a lot about the ranger class.  While rangers are (were?) awesome DPS, they lost any advantage they had once the mob got on to them.  Rangers can't cast bow abilities at point blank like casters can cast spells point blank, and while chain armor helps a little, a ranger is always in offensive stance and thus their defensive abilities are always gimped.  Ranger's also have 0 group buffs, the only way they can increase a raid's DPS is by doing it themselves, or by debuffing the mob.  And off the top of my head I only remember a heat debuff and a defense debuff.  I'm basically reiterating what every ranger has said here, that Ranger's offer very little utility to the group other than their DPS.  I don't consider out of combat abilities as real utility, because it doesn't help you win a fight (ie, evac, pathfinding, tracking, etc).</div><div> </div><div>Personally, the change to proc's isn't an unexpected one to me.  As a wizard, I was actually hoping to take advantage of the way they worked in the near future.  DoF introduced 4 spell proc items that I know about (two of which are primary hand weapons).  So simply from 3 DoF items I could eventually get 3 spell proc items.  I would only imagine that more of these types of items would be added with KoS.  I was looking forward to the day when I had 5 or so spell procs from items, dynamism, and the troubadour buff all making my procs proc like crazy like a ranger.  It would have been a sight to see for sure!  Imagine a wizard proc'ing 3 or 4 proc's every time they cast a spell; it would do insane things to wizard dps.  I knew though that this mechanic was bound to be fixed, because there is no way that SOE would let a wizard do that kind of extra damage simply by getting 4-5 specific items. </div><div> </div><div>I discussed with my brother the other day about our comparative DPS.  I told him that I didn't think Rangers needed a nerf, but I told him about my spell proc plans for the future.  I told him what SOE would probably do.  I also told him that if SOE did indeed fix proc's (I swear SOE was ease dropping in on our TeamSpeak server, because they did the two exact fixes I said they would probably do eventually) then they would have to boost the Ranger combat art damage to keep them inline with the tiers.</div><div> </div><div>Now as far as tiers go, prior to this change I didn't understand them.  I didn't know if they were still the intention or what.  I didn't know who was doing the right amount of damage or who was doing the wrong amount of damage.  I also didn't know if indirect damage (like a Wizard's Icebound Gift group spell proc or a troubadour group spell proc) was factored into these tiers.  I still don't know these things, but I have some guesses now. </div><div> </div><div>I think SOE believes that Sorcerer's DPS is where it should be.  The changes to the proc's bring Rangers more inline with Sorcerer's.  However, Ranger's Combat Arts will probably need a little boost still (I say probably because I'm not in beta and thus haven't seen the parses yet).  Ranger's should still be able to parse #1.  If that is not happening ever, then they need a boost in their Combat Art damage.  The reason Rangers perceive this as being nerfed down several tiers is because they are comparing it to classes that are not at their correct position for their tier.  If you feel bitter, feel free to call for a nerf of those classes, as it will happen regardless of whether or not you cry for it.</div><div> </div><div>I've addressed everything about this change except the change itself.  A lot of people don't understand what this change does to poisons for all scouts classes.  By using the skill's cast time to determine the chance to proc, and by limiting the chance to proc to only 1 time for a Combat Art, they are making the proc rate for all rogue and predator classes equal (ie, after 10min of fighting, all of them should have proc'd their poisons roughly the same number of times).  You may or may not be aware that Ranger's went through poisons a great deal faster than any other scout class because they were proc'ing far more often.  SOE's vision of the Ranger class is a scout that uses bows and arrows;  it is not their vision that Rangers are the "poison class" of the four scout classes that can use poison.  Poisons should and will benefit all four of the poison using scout classes equally after this update.  This is balance.  If this change creates an over-all imbalance in the DPS tiers due to weak Combat Art damage, then the Combat Arts will need to be improved.  Yes it sucks that your class is being changed in such a dramatic way.  Yes it sucks that SOE didn't pick up on this problem a long time ago when every player learned how to take advantage of it, and every player had already accepted it as how the thing was supposed to work. </div><div> </div><div>Voice your concerns by all means.  Post constructive criticism and fight for your right to be equal in damage with Assassins, Warlocks, and Wizards.  Or just play the game and have fun.  But if you're like me, and I think you are, then you feel passionately about your class and enjoy playing this game.  So stick around, give feedback, and make sure your fellow Rangers don't get left out in the cold. </div><div> </div><div>Finally, if you need a bright side to look at, think of it this way.  You won't go through as many poisons, thus saving you money.  Your damage won't rely on poison use as much, so your damage won't go down as much if you don't use poisons.  You're combat arts will probably receive a boost in damage.  And finally, you still have the best hate-reduction skills in the entire game.</div><div> </div><div>You're friendly neighborhood wizard,</div><div> </div><div>Dehah</div><div>Club Fu</div><hr></blockquote>I fully agree and appreciate this post.It summarizes the differences between wiz/war and rangers and just reflects what has been posted in those ranger boards so far.</span><div></div>

[Ayo]

2 years after the release of a game and they decide to ruin a class.  This type of nerf should of been done in early debugging stages not after there are many people that are 60 and used to playing a class.   As I have said before rangers may cast major damage but they also cost more coin  to support and do have to be at a distance to cause this type of damage.  I have a feeling that if there is this big of a change to the ranger class they are going to have enough room to merge even more servers together.  This is not a situation where dedicated players need to feel punished for picking a powerful class.  Sony needs to be carefull!!!.... havent they been watching their competitors S"ig"il Games and P"la"y.net???<div></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><p>Let's see what happens, and if it as bad as this looks, we FIGHT. I don't need to be super-DPS, but dammit, we're not here for eye candy, WE ARE A DPS CLASS. I'm sure as HELL not going to take this lying down.</p><p>We know something really bad is going to happen, and our damage is going to take a huge hit. It's not like SOE is going to completely scrap this idea - it will make it to live, in some form, and our damage - the primary purpose behind our class - is going to suffer.</p><p>They say they want us to be Tier 1 DPS. I'm wondering how the hell they intend for us remain there.</p>

[Dejah]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>Let's see what happens, and if it as bad as this looks, we FIGHT. I don't need to be super-DPS, but dammit, we're not here for eye candy, WE ARE A DPS CLASS. I'm sure as HELL not going to take this lying down.</p><p>We know something really bad is going to happen, and our damage is going to take a huge hit. It's not like SOE is going to completely scrap this idea - it will make it to live, in some form, and our damage - the primary purpose behind our class - is going to suffer.</p><p>They say they want us to be Tier 1 DPS. I'm wondering how the hell they intend for us remain there.</p><hr></blockquote>Now that's the additude I like to see! 

[Lexan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>Let's see what happens, and if it as bad as this looks, we FIGHT. I don't need to be super-DPS, but dammit, we're not here for eye candy, WE ARE A DPS CLASS. I'm sure as HELL not going to take this lying down.</p><p>We know something really bad is going to happen, and our damage is going to take a huge hit. It's not like SOE is going to completely scrap this idea - it will make it to live, in some form, and our damage - the primary purpose behind our class - is going to suffer.</p><p>They say they want us to be Tier 1 DPS. I'm wondering how the hell they intend for us remain there.</p><hr></blockquote>Dude start swinging now!!!  Or your gonna get knocked the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out in the first round!

[coltla]

<blockquote><hr>Dejah wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>Let's see what happens, and if it as bad as this looks, we FIGHT. I don't need to be super-DPS, but dammit, we're not here for eye candy, WE ARE A DPS CLASS. I'm sure as HELL not going to take this lying down.</p><p>We know something really bad is going to happen, and our damage is going to take a huge hit. It's not like SOE is going to completely scrap this idea - it will make it to live, in some form, and our damage - the primary purpose behind our class - is going to suffer.</p><p>They say they want us to be Tier 1 DPS. I'm wondering how the hell they intend for us remain there.</p><hr></blockquote>Now that's the additude I like to see! <hr></blockquote>Yeah, Jay needs to add a line to his sig, it should say "Official Spokesmen of the Rangers"

[Daxtyr_AnnonTuri]

well i think ALL casters should have a minimium distance to spells ...... if Mob_001 is to close the caster takes half the spell damage no resist check just straight damage.i hate wizzies-Dax

[21_Blessin]

<div></div><div>Good.</div><div> </div><div>Now hopefully all you fairweather Rangers won't roll one on the peeveepee server.  70% of the Good population being Rangers would of been really bad.</div><div> </div><div>I can be an unique butterfly now.</div><p>Message Edited by 21_Blessings on <span class="date_text">02-15-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:32 PM</span></p>

[Ranja]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>Let's see what happens, and if it as bad as this looks, we FIGHT. I don't need to be super-DPS, but dammit, we're not here for eye candy, WE ARE A DPS CLASS. I'm sure as HELL not going to take this lying down.</p><p>We know something really bad is going to happen, and our damage is going to take a huge hit. It's not like SOE is going to completely scrap this idea - it will make it to live, in some form, and our damage - the primary purpose behind our class - is going to suffer.</p><p>They say they want us to be Tier 1 DPS. I'm wondering how the hell they intend for us remain there.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Great to see ya posting Jay! I was wondering when you were going to chime in with somethign to say.  I agree we cannot take this lying down and I want to know how they are going to compensate us. I am getting really sick of all the changes SOE is making all the time. Not jsut minor changes but broad sweeping changes. Every upate we are playing a new game. Was there even a plan for this game in place when they started?</p><p>This is just one giant beta testing playground. They will never get it right as all their tweaks show. I work in the software business and if there is one thing I know if you fix one thing and others things break you have a poorly coded product. This is what is happening with SOE. They tweak one thing and it breaks something else. They only have so many fingers to plug the dam, pretty soon they are going to have to just rebuild the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</p><p>I am going to keep playing but not for long. I am just biding my time for NWN2 and then buh-bye SOE. I will never purchase another SOE product again. Don't get me wrong it is not from these changes alone. It is from everything they do - the CU, the ring changes, the itemization, the bugs, the release of broken expansions, and now this. It just a complete lack of oversight and total neglect for their playerbase. These changes might be needed but if changes of this magnitude are needed why the hell was the game released 2 years ago.</p><p>Elbryan60 Ranger</p>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:thats what im talking about actually.the most impressive thing ive done is created a new ranger, buffed to 60, bought all adept1, bought all handcrafted. then engaged a lv 57 <b>solo</b> mob and had to start kiting (i didnt use snipers)<div></div><hr></blockquote>This makes me want to cry <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Impetus]

That was a good post, Dejah. Frankly, I think the easier adjustment would have been to make longbows a 3sec delay instead of 7sec, but this dev team seems to prefer large revamps to "get things perfect" rather than simpler fixes that might not be quite as good, theory/system-wise.

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"well i think ALL casters should have a minimium distance to spells ...... if Mob_001 is to close the caster takes half the spell damage no resist check just straight damage.i hate wizzies"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">And I hate your arguments.  </font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">You haven't done anything except make blatantly bad ideas into arguments since the change was announced.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">For example.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div>"well i dont mean to be an idiot or anything but why cant a ranger be top dps ... Who says a magic based attack is THE most powerful ..i mean the gods are dead or gone ... so magic is or should be limited in at least one respect. rangers do not use "magic" to do damage they use  there abilities and yes even poison.so my question is this  .... Why cant the ranger be top DPS? why does a wizzard or warlock have to?and i am  sure you will not have an answer so i say this ... if a ranger is not top DPS tell me why a magic caster should be or any class for all i care.i personally think an enchanter who can charm a NPC should be able to out DPS anyone for the duration of the charm if the NPC is able to do huge damage ... let it.my 2cp-Dax"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Why shouldn't Warlocks be top melee damage.  Magic is stronger than metal.  We could use magic as swords.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Seriously man, cut it out.</font></div>

[Cron]

Well, like I said with my tombstone, I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that Rangers are dead. I've played a Ranger long before LU 13 and I will continue to play one. I'm willing to wait to see what happens in the game through my own experimentation. I appreciate those on Beta giving us a heads-up to what can be expected so that I'm prepared for it. If we are gimped back to pre-LU 13, we will do what we always do. Fight for our rightful place in Tier 1.I do have to cry bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] on the ranger who thinks he's killing everything in sight without using poisons. And since I play a necro (and run with level 60 necro's) as well as a Ranger, I will tell you that I highly doubt that you were killing mobs faster than a pair of necro's without using your poison. Keep living in your dreamworld. The veterans here know what is what.What is really chapping my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] today is the fact that after we have commented for months that casters aren't doing the damage they should be, we have a huge amount of casters coming into our forums to wave a flag and say "ha ha". Really. How about growing up. There is nothing worse than someone wishing their own misery on a class that has always wished better things for you. Your problem is with the devs, not the rangers. Please stop trolling our forums and raise your voice in your own. Every time I see a post here like that, it makes it just a little bit harder for me to help one of you in-game when you run into trouble. We are quite possibly the most-friendly class you will see here and in-game. We have a strong sense of community and for the life of me, I can't figure out why you would wish to make enemies of the entire community here.Btil: If you don't wish to see people post statements like that, maybe you should avoid the one forum that you have seriously lost any credibility with. You have done more damage to your class, with your words, than any dev. Every nerf that hits your class will just make me think "couldn't have happened to a nicer guy".In summary, keep the faith guys. Let's see what happens with all this before we get bent out of shape. I trust Memory's research in this, but would still like to see it myself before I give feedback on it.

[TrigunVash]

<div>OMG SOON, they will say t3 dps is too much for rangers, pahtfinding wayyyy to godly.and then they will take our bows away give us rubber duckies and change our class name to Class Clownwe are close to it.we are most expensive class to maintain, and worst dps. GOOD GAME. /reroll conj ftw</div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"Btil: If you don't wish to see people post statements like that, maybe you should avoid the one forum that you have seriously lost any credibility with. You have done more damage to your class, with your words, than any dev. Every nerf that hits your class will just make me think "couldn't have happened to a nicer guy"."</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">I think you missed the post where I said that I think this nerf is too much.  Anyhow, this guy has been starting new threads in the spell/combat forums trying to flame Wizards.  Requesting for him to stop isn't a bad thing.  Hate me if you will, but at least I don't <em>open</em> new threads to argue. Everything I have posted is reactive, you can search if you want.</font></div>

[galobart]

<div></div>I 'm Wizzy - 60... and Ranger - 58.Dear +++ +++ +++,This is an email to verify that the recent pre-order you placed at the Station Store has been cancelled.  No charges have been billed to your credit card. If the cancellation of your order is in error, please visit the Station Store at ----and place your order again.Thank you, and do visit us again!Sony Online Entertainment Inc.SOE Europe Limited for customers in the EU------------------------------<div>-----------------------------------------------------------------PREORDER NUMBER: 804078PREORDER DATE:   January 17, 2006-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------BILLING INFO:Waiting to see the changes....</div><div></div>

[JoeMaxx]

<div></div>Hi Im a WIZ, lev 52 and a guardian lev 48, Im not going to flam or pour salt into your wounds. In truth i feel for you guys. I sort of liked that the Ranger class in EQ2 was so strong. In EQ1 the ranger was a joke. You know RANGER DOWN heh. So I was glad to see the Ranger doing so well. That being said I want you to know that your class will survive this nurf. It's not as bad as it could be. Remember I play a guardian so I know how bad it can be. The truth is as a Wiz I felt that my DPS was not up to the class description and that the ranger class was overpowering. I didn't want the Ranger nerfed I wanted some of what you had. But SOE has there own way of doing things. So I guess what I'm saying is hang in there and don't quite because of one nurf. Wait it out and see what happens. I think you'll find that the Ranger will still be in the top 2 or 3 in DPS. GOOD LUCK to you all and I'll see you in game. Oh and don't worry I'm sure my WIZ will be next on the nerf list.

[Craien]

<div></div><div>Well I can't say that I was surprised that Sony brought your damage down, but I was at the extent to which they did.  I sincerely hope that you get a bump back up to where you should be, and soon.  Best of luck, and know that Assassin's are behind you.</div>

[Bayler_x]

I created a spreadsheet with a mathematical model of ranger damage and how the proc change will affect us.  See <a target="_blank" href="message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=48150">my post here</a> for the discussion and a link from which you can download the spreadsheet and play with the numbers.<div></div>

[King Leor]

<div>Soooo, with what sounds like a very disappointing change to rangers coming in KoS, I may happen to have a lvl 60 ranger for sale.... :0) He comes equipped with 22, or maybe 23 fabled items all t5 or t6 with quite a few masters. Not that people will want to be playing him as he may be getting extremely nerfed. Thanks sony, I almost forgot what life was like befor LU13.</div><div>Yours truly, and loyal ranger since day one.</div><div> </div><div>LeoricLevel 60 ranger</div>

[Memory]

Newest impressions from Beta:they changed some of our AAs to lower reuse timers, they gave us a melee-hurricane-until-canceled-buff, they gave us a buff that would debuff the enemies casting and combat skills by 50 points FOR 10 SECONDS WHEN WE GET HIT.they didnt fix toxic expertise (still doesnt proc on our rarely procing intial poison hit)they didnt fix point blank shot (still 5-5m and not usable therefore)for ppl without AA: youre still [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]edSummary:<font size="4" face="Courier New"><b>We are not Tier1 DPS. With AAs we can tweak up a little, but still are pretty far away from the rest of the T1. We pay to be able to keep up with Tier1 ? shouldnt we be Number1 Tier1 because of having to pay and the least utility ? We are not Tier1, even if we pay.</b></font><div></div>

[Keredh]

<div></div><p>I've rangered since tabletop and rangered with SOE since EQ1. This is the first time I've thought about forgetting it. Until recently, these were polite and self-disciplined forums - the adolescent gloating of trollers and those who would rather see another class hit than improvements made to their own are too much to stomach.</p><p>I've no problem with a reduction in our DPS. I accept that we shouldn't be top of the DPS tree. To pull us down to the mid-table however, does fundamentally alter our role. Would one of the trolls, with their power-feeding, or their Call of the Hero or their group buffs explain exactly what utility rangers bring to the highe end game apart from damage? Pathfinding? Find me someone without a horse or a carpet. Tracking? Find me someone who doesn't navigate faster using EQMap. Evac? The last evac I got in group was from a wizard (who can also power-feed a power-bled tank or healer). Rangers had one utility: damage.</p><p>If the figures and descriptions are correct, the reason to play now is either attachment to the RP idea of a ranger - or because some of us who have levelled this far really haven't the time to level another class (not all of us can invest hours and hours and hours a day - took me well over a year to hit 60).</p><p>Before LU13 we were a class that were a labour of love to play. Many found it hard to get groups as we brought no utility and damage was low. LU13 changed that - and overpowered us. I have no problem with a downards adjustment in our damage to bring us into line. But the SOE solution? Take us back. How mad for poisons not to proc off each arrow? If you just think about it it makes no sense. Poison would be on the arrow, not on some mystical set of ideas that constitute a combat art. But... A proc "nerf" to rangers is the most cost-efficient (in terms of Dev time) way of balancing what they (and other vocal classes) regard as a problem.</p><p>As someone who has always been of the Jay school of thought on class and development, I can honestly say this is the first time I have seriously thought about retiring my main. I have no intention of being a burden on the group or the class brought along because guildmates/raidmates want me to feel included (heh, the latter will take a cooler, colder look at it anyway and organise their groups accordingly - when you die with a single hit as a ranger or a wizard, why bring the ranged damage class without utility and that parses at T3 [and every raid I have been on has had someone parsing the damage]?). I have no melee ability to speak of for the up-close and personal fights so soloing gets even harder. I am assuming that the SK taunt issue, which was raised so many months ago, will get an adjustment long before a "re-fix" of rangers... That has been months - I don't see SOE responding to us for a very long time.</p><p>I am trying - but it is hard to see this as anything other than a breaking "fix" rather than a reasonable adjustment. And live is only days away.</p><p>Ker</p>

[Memory]

<div></div><div></div>lol. my level 60 ranger is hitting the total of 300 dps solo vs lv 55 solo mobs. takes me 20 sec to kill one. (without snipers, but including triple precise etc. even storm of arrows)speechless <span>:smileymad:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Memory01 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:13 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Memory01 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:13 AM</span></p>

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:<div></div><div></div>lol. my level 60 ranger is hitting the total of 300 dps solo vs lv 55 solo mobs. takes me 20 sec to kill one. (without snipers, but including triple precise etc. even storm of arrows)speechless <span>:smileymad:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Memory01 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:13 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Memory01 on <span class="date_text">02-16-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:13 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If this is the state of rangers currently on beta than come Tuesday SoE are going to have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load of [Removed for Content] off rangers on their hands.

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div>"Btil: If you don't wish to see people post statements like that, maybe you should avoid the one forum that you have seriously lost any credibility with. You have done more damage to your class, with your words, than any dev. Every nerf that hits your class will just make me think "couldn't have happened to a nicer guy"."</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">I think you missed the post where I said that I think this nerf is too much.  Anyhow, this guy has been starting new threads in the spell/combat forums trying to flame Wizards.  Requesting for him to stop isn't a bad thing.  Hate me if you will, but at least I don't <em>open</em> new threads to argue. Everything I have posted is reactive, you can search if you want.</font></div><hr></blockquote>The 50 posts that you preceded that one with saying we needed nerfed because "blah blah blah" already did the damage. The fact that you NOW think this is to much does nothing to sway me. You helped get the ball rolling and anyone who has played this game long enough knows that the ball doesn't just stop rolling. SOE nerfs classes to oblivion. Anyone who calls for a nerf of another class can't be respected in my book. IMO, it's the community against SOE, not class against class. It's a disservice to those you play with to point at another class and scream about what they have. I have never done it and I won't do it. I don't hate you. I just have no respect for you (and I'm sure you are going to tell me you really don't care which is part of the problem).I don't visit the other forum and could really care less. This forum is my home and it just irks me that you come into it and crap all over my house.

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>JoeMaxx wrote:<div></div>Hi Im a WIZ, lev 52 and a guardian lev 48, Im not going to flam or pour salt into your wounds. In truth i feel for you guys. I sort of liked that the Ranger class in EQ2 was so strong. In EQ1 the ranger was a joke. You know RANGER DOWN heh. So I was glad to see the Ranger doing so well. That being said I want you to know that your class will survive this nurf. It's not as bad as it could be. Remember I play a guardian so I know how bad it can be. The truth is as a Wiz I felt that my DPS was not up to the class description and that the ranger class was overpowering. I didn't want the Ranger nerfed I wanted some of what you had. But SOE has there own way of doing things. So I guess what I'm saying is hang in there and don't quite because of one nurf. Wait it out and see what happens. I think you'll find that the Ranger will still be in the top 2 or 3 in DPS. GOOD LUCK to you all and I'll see you in game. Oh and don't worry I'm sure my WIZ will be next on the nerf list.<hr></blockquote>From what we are hearing from Rangers in Beta, we aren't 3rd or 4th but 3rd tier.I thank you for your words of condolences, but take this from our perspective. We have had nothing but a bunch of casters (not necessarily you) begging for the bat to be swung in our direction. Now that it has, all the wizzies are going to come here to save face and say "we feel for you". For me, it's empty words. We don't forget what came before.

[TwistedFaith]

<blockquote><hr>Cronon wrote:<blockquote><hr>JoeMaxx wrote:<div></div>Hi Im a WIZ, lev 52 and a guardian lev 48, Im not going to flam or pour salt into your wounds. In truth i feel for you guys. I sort of liked that the Ranger class in EQ2 was so strong. In EQ1 the ranger was a joke. You know RANGER DOWN heh. So I was glad to see the Ranger doing so well. That being said I want you to know that your class will survive this nurf. It's not as bad as it could be. Remember I play a guardian so I know how bad it can be. The truth is as a Wiz I felt that my DPS was not up to the class description and that the ranger class was overpowering. I didn't want the Ranger nerfed I wanted some of what you had. But SOE has there own way of doing things. So I guess what I'm saying is hang in there and don't quite because of one nurf. Wait it out and see what happens. I think you'll find that the Ranger will still be in the top 2 or 3 in DPS. GOOD LUCK to you all and I'll see you in game. Oh and don't worry I'm sure my WIZ will be next on the nerf list.<hr></blockquote>From what we are hearing from Rangers in Beta, we aren't 3rd or 4th but 3rd tier.I thank you for your words of condolences, but take this from our perspective. We have had nothing but a bunch of casters (not necessarily you) begging for the bat to be swung in our direction. Now that it has, all the wizzies are going to come here to save face and say "we feel for you". For me, it's empty words. We don't forget what came before.<hr></blockquote>I disagree here I personally think the change has a LOT more to do with PvP then people think.SoE see's the PVP aspect of this game as a way to claw customers back from Blizzard. If they can get this right then sales go up. Rangers on PvP were VERY popular and a awesome PvP class, which of course leads to multitudes of nerf rangers posts.If Wizzys get a DPS increase or at the top of the pile good luck to them. As long as the ranger class isnt destroyed by these changes I could care less.

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:I disagree here I personally think the change has a LOT more to do with PvP then people think.SoE see's the PVP aspect of this game as a way to claw customers back from Blizzard. If they can get this right then sales go up. Rangers on PvP were VERY popular and a awesome PvP class, which of course leads to multitudes of nerf rangers posts.If Wizzys get a DPS increase or at the top of the pile good luck to them. As long as the ranger class isnt destroyed by these changes I could care less.<hr></blockquote>Don't get my posts wrong. I agree completely with you and always have had the same notion. I don't care about any other class's benefits as long as mine isn't killed to get them there. We were overpowered for sure, but from the sounds of it, we are being pushed back to August of last year. As long as my class doesn't get pounded into oblivion, I could care less if Wizzie's are soloing Terrorantula.

[Mirdo]

<div>Like the last expansion, I was waiting to buy the digital download until release day or the day after (let the inevitable major bugs and server crashes settle down etc). With these changes I'll delay purchasing and just stick with an alt for now, maybe raid my Ranger at T6 because he's the only 60 char I have and see what happens.</div><div> </div><div>If he's gimped and looks likely to stay gimped I'll reconsider playing this game. Vanguard is drawing closer and while not the universal Panacea, a change will be as good as a rest. Hopefully there will be at least a year in that game before major game mechanics changes are necessary (and then again, oh and again later to fix what the last change broke - you get the idea).</div><div> </div><div>I expect constant tweaking and balancing - but they rarely are in this game - they are sweeping and changes, implemented too often. A lot of anti-SoE posters are always going on about 'lack of QA'. I used to put it down to dissatisfaction etc. Now I really do question the EQ2 team ability to actually dry run then analyse the effects of changes on test - particularly something as far ranging as the proc changes.</div><div> </div><div>And, although this clearly affects Rangers the most, I have sympathy for any other class these changes affect. It will reduce the DPS of classes that are currentyl balance, in itself creating an imbalance. </div><div> </div><div>Also, to me, it looks like this expansion is going the way of the DoF and the Combat revamp - massive changes going in just prior to release without adequate time to fully explore the direct and knock on effects of them.</div><div> </div><div>Mirdo.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Terdrigar]

<div></div>Where is the balancing? Do you know what balanced means? As far as I can see very little thought went into this change apart from someone read some posts about ranger's having to much dps and decided lower it without any thought to the extent or effect it would have. Yes Ranger dps was unfairly high, but this is by no means bringing it down to where it should be, it's lowering it too much. 300dps at lv 60 negates the point of the class even existing, rangers will not get groups will have the applications rejected to guilds and thrown on the scrapheap...lv 70 700dps with all abilities...what's the point in leveling, will take 2-3 times longer with the lower dps=p. There's an advantage in pvp with us being able to shoot and run at the same time, hmm oversight there couldn't see that coming doesn't effect the non pvp servers but i expect some thoughtless idiot will compensate by nerfing  us all by making us have to be stationary to fire....makes sense...no? Well neither do these changes!!!

[Bithnar]

<div>Ok to say that our procing poison was overpowered would have been an understatement.  However to make it so we almost never proc anymore is rediculas.  I have an idea why not fox the way procs go off period for all weapons.  In other words if its listed as a 5% chance to proc off an imbuded weapon then it should proc, on average, 1 in 20 for EVERY hit that the wielder performs whether its in auto attack or from a CA.  Same things for poisons, on average, 1 in 4 chance of procing of ANY attack made, whether auto attack or multiple attack CA'a.  It should also include the extra attacks that come from our offensive stances.</div><div> </div><div>Forget the whole weapons delay issue thats whats causing the problem.  How do you compensate for slower weapons? Easy you scale the proc damage based upon the weapons delay.  Slower weapon bigger damage from the proc.  They already do this with normal weapon damage, can anyone say "damage rating?"  They also do this somewhat with by scaling spell/proc damage based upon Intellegence</div><div> </div><div>Would this be harder to code? Possibly, but shouldn't be too hard they already have the code structure in place with the two afore mentioned examples.</div>

[Garlicyesterday]

<div>Guys the ranger is unplayable on the beta , they are putting us back pre-lu#13 is not worst ....</div><div> </div><div>Good job SoE on going to a direction where you gonna loose [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] loads of customers !!!!</div>