Rangers only offer dps to a group?

[Drah]

<div>I know I am stepping into dangerous waters.</div><div> </div><div>However, when I read post after post after post about rangers I keep hearing that all they offer a group is dps.</div><div> </div><div>What about our bow debuff?  What about tracking?  Disarming chests? </div><div> </div><div>Or in melee range our stun, bring mob to the knees CA.</div><div> </div><div>And although we do pay for it...what about stuns and debuffs?</div><div> </div><div>I realize I am only a young ranger and that stuns and debuffs are very expensive and lost for only a short while but in marginal groups when we come across a named the debufff and stun make a huge difference.</div><div> </div><div>I know there is alot of Ranger hate due to Rangers being very good at dps (if using a good bow and good poisons).</div><div> </div><div>However, I think it is a little mis-leading to say the only utility we give is DPS.</div><div> </div><div>Again, I am a young Ranger and I could be wrong but I feel I offer alot of utility when I join a group besides my killing power.</div><div> </div><div>Now, if this statement is supposed to mean we only bring dps to Raids its a whole other story.  I would agree the only thing we bring to a raid is DPS, but there are alot of "DPS" classes that brings 99 percent dps only to the Raid.</div><div> </div><div>If this is the case then the only DPS statement needs to be clarified to be only DPS to raids.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Gnome mercy]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Drah wrote:<div>I know I am stepping into dangerous waters.</div><div> </div><div>However, when I read post after post after post about rangers I keep hearing that all they offer a group is dps.</div><div> </div><div>What about our bow debuff?  What about tracking?  Disarming chests? </div><div> </div><div>Or in melee range our stun, bring mob to the knees CA.</div><div> </div><div>And although we do pay for it...what about stuns and debuffs?</div><div> </div><div>I realize I am only a young ranger and that stuns and debuffs are very expensive and lost for only a short while but in marginal groups when we come across a named the debufff and stun make a huge difference.</div><div> </div><div>I know there is alot of Ranger hate due to Rangers being very good at dps (if using a good bow and good poisons).</div><div> </div><div>However, I think it is a little mis-leading to say the only utility we give is DPS.</div><div> </div><div>Again, I am a young Ranger and I could be wrong but I feel I offer alot of utility when I join a group besides my killing power.</div><div> </div><div>Now, if this statement is supposed to mean we only bring dps to Raids its a whole other story.  I would agree the only thing we bring to a raid is DPS, but there are alot of "DPS" classes that brings 99 percent dps only to the Raid.</div><div> </div><div>If this is the case then the only DPS statement needs to be clarified to be only DPS to raids.</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote></div><div> </div><div>Well, let me say this, if you ever hear that again the "rangers only bring dps to the table" tell them to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and stop whining cause it sint true, along with dps we do give debuffs, the stun isnt all that well only hits any mob regular or lower for worthwhile time the ^'s ^^'s and ^^^'s get the 2 second stun just long enough for us to move ot side and stab into stealth then do the flame stab but its all still good, um, poisons are very nice thing as well since if you knew how to use em you'd be able to get a good slashing/piercing/crushing debuff on them which is really nice especially for epics (AKA Darathar is the most resistant sob ive come across) along with regular ca stuns we got the good poison stuns and as for you guys complainni about poison, i make my own and even buy the legendary loam to give it a boost and yet no difference in cash, ive never heard anyone complain this much about poisons, HATE is a big thing, every time we get a named mob first shot i use is trick shot line for the tank and let him go at his taunts before everyone starts in, believe it or not that line works wonders especially on epics, lets see, what else? we got the defense decreaser, really nice thing and then more and more dps lol, personally, dps is our main utility but we are more useful than most people think, OH and disarming traps is oh so handy, masters deal big damage and that stupid disease buff that lowers attributes by ALOT for 10 minutes, tracking is also useful but then again i can live without it</div><div> </div><div>Hm, it seems like ive gone through the list, so now anyone who says that all we offer is dps im gonig to say this to ya, shut up cause it isnt true, stop whining play the class, and if you dont like it, heres an idea, QUIT</div>

[Memory]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], what did this guy above me smoke ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />our debuffs = some heat, some defense -- all in all they suck and just keep you from dishing out dmgpoison = for all rogues and predators so that doesnt make us all so goodtrick shot = suck if ya proc quick shot right after it you can be sure you gain that hate buff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />groups buffs = non existantso what are we good for ? 99% dps, 1% utilitywizards, warlocks, conju, whatever .. they got group buffs, they can CoH / mana transfer / resi buff / miti buff / stat buff / proc buff / stun / pacify / stifle / ....so in my point of view its righteous we should be No1 DPS, bc we dont offer utility.and to tell you what . i dont want to offer any utility, i want to offer only dps in future aswell.<div></div>

[Tes Mar'a]

<div></div>I would say that we are DPSwe have Debilitating Arrow, that gives okey damage, and lower defece, so that is a debuff.we have our share, it lowers magic resisten or heat, dependig if you are using the one rangers gets, or the the one from splitpaw.we have snipe that are a ok debuff, but you have to be in close combat.Disarm trap, tja. it's not a must, the tank can take the hit from it, and the effect from the trap can be cured quick, it just saves the healer a little power.stun. I use is a lot when I solo, but in groups, I only use it for HO's. And when I'm on raids, I'm in range attack the most of the time, so I can't use it thereSo long stori short. We are DPS.We can lower some defence, and we will for it's a part of a range DD skill.Posion can debuff some more, but we are not the only one that can use that.The only group buf we have is pathfinding, and we are not the only one, and there are no real use for that in a group/raid By the way. I have noting again being a pure DPS, just as long other DPS classes remember it.I have seen the messege from some wizzards. "But rangers can do more DPS then we can, whit out pulling aggo." Yes that is true, but we can't buff the group you can.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Tes Mar'a on <span class="date_text">02-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:04 PM</span></p>

[MysticoN]

Disarm trap, tja. it's not a must, the tank can take the hit from it, and the effect from the trap can be cured quick, it just saves the healer a little power.wel.. MANY chest have AoE traps that dmg all members in the grp.

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], what did this guy above me smoke ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />our debuffs = some heat, some defense -- all in all they suck and just keep you from dishing out dmgpoison = for all rogues and predators so that doesnt make us all so goodtrick shot = suck if ya proc quick shot right after it you can be sure you gain that hate buff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />groups buffs = non existantso what are we good for ? 99% dps, 1% utilitywizards, warlocks, conju, whatever .. they got group buffs, they can CoH / mana transfer / resi buff / miti buff / stat buff / proc buff / stun / pacify / stifle / ....so in my point of view its righteous we should be No1 DPS, bc we dont offer utility.and to tell you what . i dont want to offer any utility, i want to offer only dps in future aswell.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wizards and Warlocks don't get that.</p><p>They get 2 stuns, 1 mez, 2 group buffs, 2 single target buffs, evac</p><p>Rangers get just as much</p><p>They get  1 group buff, evac, tracking, disarming chests, 1 hate reducer, 4 debuffs, 2 stuns</p><p> </p><p>Plus debuffs are way more poweful then buffs. Wizard buffs maybe increase a raids DPS by 1% or so. Ranger debuffs on the other hand increase the Raids DPS by 20-30%</p>

[Dojoc]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p schrieb:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], what did this guy above me smoke ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />our debuffs = some heat, some defense -- all in all they suck and just keep you from dishing out dmgpoison = for all rogues and predators so that doesnt make us all so goodtrick shot = suck if ya proc quick shot right after it you can be sure you gain that hate buff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />groups buffs = non existantso what are we good for ? 99% dps, 1% utilitywizards, warlocks, conju, whatever .. they got group buffs, they can CoH / mana transfer / resi buff / miti buff / stat buff / proc buff / stun / pacify / stifle / ....so in my point of view its righteous we should be No1 DPS, bc we dont offer utility.and to tell you what . i dont want to offer any utility, i want to offer only dps in future aswell.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wizards and Warlocks don't get that.</p><p>They get 2 stuns, 1 mez, 2 group buffs, 2 single target buffs, evac</p><p>Rangers get just as much</p><p>They get  1 group buff, evac, tracking, disarming chests, 1 hate reducer, 4 debuffs, 2 stuns</p><p> </p><p>Plus debuffs are way more poweful then buffs. Wizard buffs maybe increase a raids DPS by 1% or so. Ranger debuffs on the other hand increase the Raids DPS by 20-30%</p><hr></blockquote>sry , most of your complete post ist full of misinfomation, plz go and inspect the ranger skill tree or ask some ranger and if you understand these, then come back and discuess with us if you want ..but plz , [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if you dont know something  .... "ranger debuffs on the other hand increse the raids dps by 20-30%"  lol ... brig maybe, but a ranger can debuff this ? loliam so sorry for you , reallyto the OP:Yes we are DPS, either utility nor debuffer, we are DD and thats it!We bring dmg, dmg and more dmg to a raid, and no, i dont want more utility, because the little amount of utility i can use, i share with some others scout classes or with some others non-scout classes</span></div><p>Nachricht bearbeitet von Dojocan am <span class="date_text">02-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:03 AM</span></p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], what did this guy above me smoke ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />our debuffs = some heat, some defense -- all in all they suck and just keep you from dishing out dmgpoison = for all rogues and predators so that doesnt make us all so goodtrick shot = suck if ya proc quick shot right after it you can be sure you gain that hate buff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />groups buffs = non existantso what are we good for ? 99% dps, 1% utilitywizards, warlocks, conju, whatever .. they got group buffs, they can CoH / mana transfer / resi buff / miti buff / stat buff / proc buff / stun / pacify / stifle / ....so in my point of view its righteous we should be No1 DPS, bc we dont offer utility.and to tell you what . i dont want to offer any utility, i want to offer only dps in future aswell.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wizards and Warlocks don't get that.</p><p>They get 2 stuns, 1 mez, 2 group buffs, 2 single target buffs, evac</p><p>Rangers get just as much</p><p>They get <font color="#ff9900"> 1 group buff,</font> evac, tracking, disarming chests, 1 hate reducer, 4 debuffs, 2 stuns</p><p> </p><p>Plus debuffs are way more poweful then buffs. Wizard buffs maybe increase a raids DPS by 1% or so. Ranger debuffs on the other hand increase the Raids DPS by 20-30%</p><hr></blockquote><p>the fact that you consider pathfinding even remotely usefull just made you lose all credibility.</p><p> </p><p>Level 4 Buffs ftw!</p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], what did this guy above me smoke ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />our debuffs = some heat, some defense -- all in all they suck and just keep you from dishing out dmgpoison = for all rogues and predators so that doesnt make us all so goodtrick shot = suck if ya proc quick shot right after it you can be sure you gain that hate buff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />groups buffs = non existantso what are we good for ? 99% dps, 1% utilitywizards, warlocks, conju, whatever .. they got group buffs, they can CoH / mana transfer / resi buff / miti buff / stat buff / proc buff / stun / pacify / stifle / ....so in my point of view its righteous we should be No1 DPS, bc we dont offer utility.and to tell you what . i dont want to offer any utility, i want to offer only dps in future aswell.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wizards and Warlocks don't get that.</p><p>They get 2 stuns, 1 mez, 2 group buffs, 2 single target buffs, evac</p><p>Rangers get just as much</p><p>They get  1 group buff, evac, tracking, disarming chests, 1 hate reducer, 4 debuffs, 2 stuns</p><p> </p><p>Plus debuffs are way more poweful then buffs. Wizard buffs maybe increase a raids DPS by 1% or so. Ranger debuffs on the other hand increase the Raids DPS by 20-30%</p><hr></blockquote><p>Add to the list for wizards,</p><p>Power Feed, Single Target Root, Group Root. 1 Debuff that Does 2 Resists, Pbaoe Snare/Chance to Root, %chance to Stifle Spell, Spell Casting Proc (Icebound Gift)</p>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><p><YAWN></p><p>Not <strong>this</strong> thread again!  Wake me when it's over</p>

[Gareorn]

<div>Same old story, same old poochy troll.</div>

[The Ban]

<div></div><blockquote>Aye, rangers do have more utility than Wizards, but thats why we are in the bottom half of t1 DPS.</blockquote><p> </p>

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], what did this guy above me smoke ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />our debuffs = some heat, some defense -- all in all they suck and just keep you from dishing out dmgpoison = for all rogues and predators so that doesnt make us all so goodtrick shot = suck if ya proc quick shot right after it you can be sure you gain that hate buff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />groups buffs = non existantso what are we good for ? 99% dps, 1% utilitywizards, warlocks, conju, whatever .. they got group buffs, they can CoH / mana transfer / resi buff / miti buff / stat buff / proc buff / stun / pacify / stifle / ....so in my point of view its righteous we should be No1 DPS, bc we dont offer utility.and to tell you what . i dont want to offer any utility, i want to offer only dps in future aswell.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wizards and Warlocks don't get that.</p><p>They get 2 stuns, 1 mez, 2 group buffs, 2 single target buffs, evac</p><p>Rangers get just as much</p><p>They get  1 group buff, evac, tracking, disarming chests, 1 hate reducer, 4 debuffs, 2 stuns</p><p> </p><p>Plus debuffs are way more poweful then buffs. Wizard buffs maybe increase a raids DPS by 1% or so. Ranger debuffs on the other hand increase the Raids DPS by 20-30%</p><hr></blockquote><p>Add to the list for wizards,</p><p>Power Feed, Single Target Root, Group Root. 1 Debuff that Does 2 Resists, Pbaoe Snare/Chance to Root, %chance to Stifle Spell, Spell Casting Proc (Icebound Gift)</p><hr></blockquote><p>Sigh....why are you adding all the roots as utility?</p><p>If you do that then you have to add stun poison, Snaring shot, Culling of the Weak, Thorny Trap, but seriously if you raid you should know that roots are pretty darn useless utility for raids.</p><p>Why is it hard for Rangers to accept that they are meant to share the T1 DPS with Sorcerors.</p><p>I shouln't say Rangers in general, but rather a few Rangers as most Rangers accept the fact that Sorcerors need a DPS boost in order to be on par with them.</p><p>There are 4 classes in t1 not just Rangers/Assasins so why are you so againsted the other classes sharing t1 DPS with you even though they are mean't to.</p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Memory01 wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], what did this guy above me smoke ? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />our debuffs = some heat, some defense -- all in all they suck and just keep you from dishing out dmgpoison = for all rogues and predators so that doesnt make us all so goodtrick shot = suck if ya proc quick shot right after it you can be sure you gain that hate buff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />groups buffs = non existantso what are we good for ? 99% dps, 1% utilitywizards, warlocks, conju, whatever .. they got group buffs, they can CoH / mana transfer / resi buff / miti buff / stat buff / proc buff / stun / pacify / stifle / ....so in my point of view its righteous we should be No1 DPS, bc we dont offer utility.and to tell you what . i dont want to offer any utility, i want to offer only dps in future aswell.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Wizards and Warlocks don't get that.</p><p>They get 2 stuns, 1 mez, 2 group buffs, 2 single target buffs, evac</p><p>Rangers get just as much</p><p>They get  1 group buff, evac, tracking, disarming chests, 1 hate reducer, 4 debuffs, 2 stuns</p><p> </p><p>Plus debuffs are way more poweful then buffs. Wizard buffs maybe increase a raids DPS by 1% or so. Ranger debuffs on the other hand increase the Raids DPS by 20-30%</p><hr></blockquote><p>Add to the list for wizards,</p><p>Power Feed, Single Target Root, Group Root. 1 Debuff that Does 2 Resists, Pbaoe Snare/Chance to Root, %chance to Stifle Spell, Spell Casting Proc (Icebound Gift)</p><hr></blockquote><p>Sigh....why are you adding all the roots as utility?</p><p>If you do that then you have to add stun poison, Snaring shot, Culling of the Weak, Thorny Trap, but seriously if you raid you should know that roots are pretty darn useless utility for raids.</p><p>Why is it hard for Rangers to accept that they are meant to share the T1 DPS with Sorcerors.</p><p>I shouln't say Rangers in general, but rather a few Rangers as most Rangers accept the fact that Sorcerors need a DPS boost in order to be on par with them.</p><p>There are 4 classes in t1 not just Rangers/Assasins so why are you so againsted the other classes sharing t1 DPS with you even though they are mean't to.</p><hr></blockquote><p>When did raids come into this? The title is specifically titled Rangers in Groups.</p><p>And FYI I have stated numerous times here and in other posts that Wizards should be t1 DPS, and need a boost. Try and find a post where I stated the contrary. Infact I have no problem whatsoever for wizards to do top damage. I Just don't like how in order to reach there goal they would rather see other classes nerfed and use laugahble reasoning to get it accomplished.</p><p>Stop worrying about others and worry about yourselfs.</p><p> </p><p>Us rangers spent 13 LU's being crap dps, and I don't remember demanding to have wizard DPS or Utility at the time, (And Wizard DPS WAS greater Pre lu13, just not as high as warlocks/assasins)</p>

[KirikaNo]

<div></div><p>It's funny to read about how rangers have "no utility" and then watch one proceed to lay down a root trap and beat the living sheeyat out of a named heroic mob with two adds that I could barely kill as an Assassin.</p><p>Oh yeah, and they do a lot more damage too.</p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KirikaNoir wrote:<div></div><p>It's funny to read about how rangers have "no utility" and then watch one proceed to lay down a root trap and beat the living sheeyat out of a named heroic mob with two adds that I could barely kill as an Assassin.</p><p>Oh yeah, and they do a lot more damage too.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Rangers have utility, just not much group utility, Most of our utility is designed to further our own damage and to help with soloing.</p><p> </p>

[Dojoc]

<span><blockquote><hr>KirikaNoir schrieb:<div></div><p>It's funny to read about how rangers have "no utility" and then watch one proceed to lay down a root trap and beat the living sheeyat out of a named heroic mob with two adds that I could barely kill as an Assassin.</p><p>Oh yeah, and they do a lot more damage too.</p><hr></blockquote></span>If you read this threat and read the title "Rangers only offer dps to a group?" , you'll see that he is asking if Rangers have something else as pure dmg to offer a group ...Answer : noDo we have "utility" for solo? yesAnd sry that your dmg isnt high like our's , i hope SoE will fix you guys<div></div>

[Nimana]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p> </p><p>You're obviously right, Drah. Rangers DO bring some utility to a group/raid. However, I think it is fair to say that as far as utility goes (excluding dps) rangers probably is the class bringing the least utility to the table.</p><p>As you probably know, a vocal group of sorcerors have been campaining for a rise in their dps. Most rangers support this plea. Personally I think that sorceror and assasin dps should be on par with ranger dps. Things are not well balanced now. However, some sorcerors demand not only to be on par with rangers, but to surpass them with regard to dps. They are primarily arguing from a raid setting, basing their case on three arguments: That rangers have as much utility as sorcerors, that sorcerors have less survivability than predators and some statements from Moorgard indicating sorcerors should be on top dps-wise.</p><p>What these campaigners do, is comparing their own class specific (and thus exclusive) utility to abilities being shared by ALL scouts. Of course such a comparison is unfair. When it comes to raid demand any exclusive ability will be more valuable than shared abilities. There is no reason to bring an assasin or a ranger to a raid for their disarm skills or pathfinding. Poisons are being used by all scout classes. The debuffs being exclusive to rangers are Debilitating arrow (decreasing deflection/parry), Snipe (decreasing defence) and Forester's Noose (decreasing fire resistance). These are all useful! However, to fully utilize these, one have to get into meleee range.  Which brings us to the sorcerors second argument: Survivability.</p><p>Sorcerors like to point out that they wear inferior armor compared to scouts. When soloing, sorcerors get a mezz line that will mostly keep them at a distance when fighting mobs. Rangers get snares and a stun which normally means the ranger will get hit more often. In groups, the sorcerors may use their mezz line to deal with aggro while the ranger can take some heat. However, due to their positional attacks, predators will be more likely to draw adds than their sorceror counterparts! When it comes to raids, neither sorcerors nor predators is supposed to tank! Thus armor is mostly unimportant. IF you draw aggro on a raid, it is most likely because you've messed up! To fully utilize their abilities however, predators have to fight close up, thus being more exposed to AoEs, while sorcerors can sit back and deal damage from a safe spot. If anything, a skilled predator is MORE likely to take a hit than a skilled sorceror during a raid. Still, some sorcerors seem to think that the fact that they were robes should make them undisputed dps kings...</p><p>And that is why they repeatedly quote Moorgard...</p><p>I've read several posts from sorcerors calling for statements from the devs ensuring that their classes problems are being looked into. These posters seem to disregard the fact that when you scrutinize every dev statement as if it was some legally binding agreement, you're really not encouraging devs to post their views...</p><p>It is true that Moorgard has made a couple of statements indicating that both sorcerors and predators should be tier 1 dps, with sorcerors slightly above predators. It is also true that none of these statements have been made recently, that Moorgard have moderated his own statements and that Moorgard has stated that everything in this game can be changed. Alas, SoE employees have made several statements in the past that have been misleading at the best.  When I made my ranger I chose a wood elf due to high agility. The online manual clearly stated (and still does) that for scouts agi is their primary ability. Now I know that for a ranger agi is not that important and that I would have been better off rolling a berserker :smileysad:</p><p>Instead of quoting Moorgard, I'd like to hear more sorcerors talk about balance. I'd be interested to know why some of them seem to think that the classes with some of the best solo abilities in the game also should be the kings of dps? I would like to know why it is such a good idea to make sorcerors supreme, ensuring the envy of others. And I would like to know why the rather infrequent and rare occassion of a sorceror getting aggro on a raid (survivability) is an argument for the dps top spot, while the consistent and everpresent costs of poisons are being ignored (except when being factored into the dps comparisons sorcerors like to make).</p><p>As stated previously, I DO think sorcerors and assassins need a rise in their dps. (Warlocks probably need better deaggro abilities as well). I DO think they should be on par with rangers. This balancing may lead to rangers being nerfed some. That is fine! What I don't support are the biased arguments being presented to make sorcerors uber. Balance is about making every class wanted and fun. For now, rangers are too powerful compared to sorcerors and assassins. But I've yet to see good arguments being presented as to why further balancing should lead to any class in Tier 1 consistently outdamaging others...</p><p>So, the simple answer to your question Drah, is this: The reason some rangers are disregarding part of their utility when arguing with sorcerors, is because a lot of arguments being presented by sorcerors wanting to be Godlike are just as incomplete and biased. Unfortunately...</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:57 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nimanael on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:02 AM</span></p>

[Echothunder]

<div></div><div></div>Ok that being said, thank you Nimanael quite insightfull. All I personally have to say as a Ranger is Thank Norrath I dont wiggle my fingers, mutter incantations, and wear a skirt while i do damage! HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA. Let the Sorcy's utter what they will, until they play a ranger , pay to play as it were, and enjoy the awesome life of a RANGER.  It is just great being a Ranger in groups, come on wake up my spoiled spoiled let me say it again SPOILED brothers and sisters.  Try thinking about being a Ranger in the days of old....   uhhh what? ya.. exactly  WE GOT EVAC! HELLLO!!!!   THANK YOU to the people upstairs who did that.In answer to the point of question utility in group = YES! Do not in any way over look or underestimate the lovely gift of Evac we have been given.  Ya no big deal you can take 3 seconds and save every ones life cause of a roamer, or new puller, or healer afk this list goes on.  I cant even count how many times I have saved a group with evac.  Or even how bout travel, its nice to conveniently poof across a zone.  All to often after 50 or 60 levels of playing Rangers we get complacent and even spoiled with our unique combination of abilities.  Yeah other classes have it too but thats not the discussion, its about Rangers and what we can do.And believe it or not, regardless of how (this will probably get me flamed) clueless the rest of Norrath seems to be about Rangers and pulling. But it is still our job to pull, more ever now then before. Trick shot line placing aggro proves it! Use it, train the masses. A good puller can make or break a group. A great puller can chain pull and have the mobs incoming as the previous mob is dying until the cleric Cries STOP! to med up.. You feel great and the group loves the River of Xp.So utility? Ya if you want to get off your [Removed for Content] and educate and show the world what a great Ranger can do for a group. Get in tells with your tank and pull for em, show em.   Cherrish your Evac... its a fantastic gift well earned. And you can make of your stuns, your debuffs and your ability to track as you will.  Track as it is can lead you too fortune and fame, in fact many groups require Rangers cause track can some time be Essential.It is a good life as a Ranger, not easy to play but then if it was every one would want to be one. The fact we have to use strategy and tactics to get the most out of our profession draws out the Elite and Dedicated of players.  I am talking about you, all of you! Enjoy what we have, understand our weakness's and overcome them. Find your enemies weakness's and exploit them. PVP will show our unique abilities dramaticaly.... open war fare with our skills? OH yes.. we will be Feared and Respected you will all have your chance to show them and see for your self... If you dare..Crossbow Artillery'Cannon the Loyal49th LVL Ogre Ranger<div></div><p>Message Edited by Echothunder on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:20 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Echothunder on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:22 AM</span></p>

[Mirdo]

<div></div><p>Well, responding to the OP, my own experience has been that the Ranger 'utility' gets used less and less the higher the level of the Ranger when grouping.</p><p>When I was moving through 20's to 40's things like pathfinding, evac and my heat debuff for our group wizzy were very useful. Once my regular group started getting into the 50's I found that it was more efficient to just go full on DPS to kill the mobs (has to be matched to the tank ability to hold agro veruse your agro debuffs and damage).</p><p>If i go out to help guildmates finish their grind to 60 for the expansion or complete quests, I rarely need to use any of my utility directly. Stun posions are probably one of the most useful things I bring to our groups outside of DPS. Even then the stun poison is only used on the hardest of the single group mobs.</p><p>So overall, I think the the usefulness of the spells most class as our 'utility' changes as you level. But this has only been my experience - others may have different views.</p><p>Mirdo.</p><p> </p>

[Memory]

@Echothunder:youre talking about having a lame tank, but actually the type of utility you speak of can be achieved by any class, it just requires a good player.Im just kinda sick of hearing wizzies and warlocks cry about their aweful dps so much, and then they bring up us rangers as being by far too overpowered because we actually are in T1 dps.Rather have a look at the fact that conju and necro pets outdamage you straight and are on par with rangers. werent they supposed to be Tier 3 or Tier 2 with dmg pet ?As a ranger you have pretty high costs you pay everyday, a good ranger will certainly use legendary crafted poisons (at least the dmg poison to be legendary) and then go for handcrafted poison aswell (stun i.e.). Arrow cost can be neglected although it might sum up or be high if ya take crafted arrows instead of vendored ones.So if a wizzard calls to be on par with our dps i suggest they get to pay for using their icecomets or whatever, and if they want to be on par they should have to give up their mana feed, resi buff, proc buff. then it would be equal, but why make them different classes then when they do the same ?in my point of view sony obviously gave wizzards at least some minor utiliy to groups and raids and with KoS they get a nice boost in dps while rangers actually dont atm.i support the wiz and warlock plea that they need to be Tier1 dps, but they shouldnt be No1 in Tier1.my 2 cps<div></div>

[xandez]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<p>They get  1 group buff, evac, tracking, disarming chests, 1 hate reducer, 4 debuffs, 2 stuns</p><p><font color="#ff9900">- We get 0 group buffs (pathfinding can hardly be counted i think)- Evac, yes, its ok but its main use is in travelling.- Tracking, yes its ok too, helps to find quest monsters and such, hardly invaluable anyways.- Disarming chests, yes, but its a joke atm, who needs to disarm the chests nowadays?- we actually get 3 hate reducers, 2 CA:s: one pure hate reducer and one which puts as to stealth and one perma hate reducer- we get 3 debuffs, the 4th one is from poison             1) debuff to heat + snare (or magic, the splitpaw snare)              2) debuff to defense (this helps with CAs too?)              3) debuff to deflection/parry (bow CA)- 1 stun, which is a whopping 4s, 2s against any uparrow ones, the other you are referring to comes from poison</font></p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ff9900">++Xan</font></p>

[xandez]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KirikaNoir wrote:<div></div><p>It's funny to read about how rangers have "no utility" and then watch one proceed to lay down a root trap and beat the living sheeyat out of a named heroic mob with two adds that I could barely kill as an Assassin.</p><p>Oh yeah, and they do a lot more damage too.</p><hr></blockquote><p>So, whats your prob, go reroll a ranger then?</p><p>++Xan</p>

[DrifterOme]

<div></div><div>To answer the original question, Yes Rangers offer DPS to a group.  No, its not all we offer.</div><div>Aside with evac'ing, and some debuffs we can offer(at the cost of gold of course).  Traps are very nice for group mobs, but of course trap is not available until after 50.  There should really be a lesser version of it, would be very useful IMO.  With rangers now being able to go into a defensive stance, they make a very nice aggro net.  What I mean, group is working on this mob, new mob spawns behind healer and advances.  Ranger pulls with arrow, goes into defensive to dodge a good portion of the oncoming attacks, heads to the tank who in turn takes the mob off the ranger.  If you get your agi* high enough, can even be a decent off tank (I do it all the time for zones like poets and roost).</div><div> </div><div>Now, to answer the arguement that picked up in here regarding finger wagglers vs. arrow chuckers.  A finger waggler will out DPS an arrow chucker any day of the week.  Now, if the arrow chucker goes into his pocket and drops a fair amount of gold to add to his DPS, then yes, he will win the DPS war.</div><div>Simple solution, introduce reagnents to the game so finger wagglers can boost their dps.  This will also give casters a feel of what rangers had to do since launch just to compete.</div><p>Message Edited by DrifterOmega on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:02 PM</span></p>

[Jayad]

<div></div>:smileyvery-happy: @ rangers offering 'utility' to a group or raid.

[Poochymama]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>xandez wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<p>They get  1 group buff, evac, tracking, disarming chests, 1 hate reducer, 4 debuffs, 2 stuns</p><p><font color="#ff9900">- We get 0 group buffs (pathfinding can hardly be counted i think)- Evac, yes, its ok but its main use is in travelling.- Tracking, yes its ok too, helps to find quest monsters and such, hardly invaluable anyways.- Disarming chests, yes, but its a joke atm, who needs to disarm the chests nowadays?- we actually get 3 hate reducers, 2 CA:s: one pure hate reducer and one which puts as to stealth and one perma hate reducer- we get 3 debuffs, the 4th one is from poison             1) debuff to heat + snare (or magic, the splitpaw snare)              2) debuff to defense (this helps with CAs too?)              3) debuff to deflection/parry (bow CA)- 1 stun, which is a whopping 4s, 2s against any uparrow ones, the other you are referring to comes from poison</font></p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ff9900">++Xan</font></p><hr></blockquote>Yep

[leafnin]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>I'm reluctant personally to call anything you have to buy a Class's debuff/buff it's like saying a Wizard can buy a mana regen potion so he can count that as a buff.  That just makes no sense, but again that's my own opinion on that matter.</div><div> </div><div>Trick Arrow wont' really be that useful come LU20.</div><div> </div><div>Pathfinding cancels in combat, most people have carpets or horses so really not that useful.</div><div> </div><div>Tracking is OK if your looking for named.  Can't use in combat</div><div> </div><div>Snipe - Our only pure debuff (Def 36 - M1)</div><div> </div><div>Deb Arrow - Damage with a Decrease Parry/Deflection side effect.</div><div> </div><div>Snaring something isn't usefull in groups unless your ghetto CCing.</div><div> </div><div>Thorny Trap is useful for prefight CC or picking apart an encounter that would be too tough for a small group.  Not useful in combat.</div><div> </div><div>Evac -  All scouts, Wizards (Warlocks?), SK's, Wardens</div><div> </div><div>Disarm - Useful, but not necessary</div><div> </div><div>  </div><div>Falcon</div><div>60 Ranger</div><div>Kithicor  </div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:29 AM</span></p>

[Jay]

<div></div><div></div><p>I don't know why we keep repeating this discussion, or why it always (and so quickly) devolves into a competition about who has LESS utility, rangers or sorcs. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the two classes and an honest eye can see that sorcs get more, but...who cares? They're casters, they're SUPPOSED to get more utility. I'm glad they do, it helps my groups. Whether they want that utility or find it useful is not my concern - the utility is there, a part of those classes. What they do with it is between them and SOE, and it's irrelevent to this discussion.</p><p>Now, here's the thing: we're predators. We *are* DPS. Are we ONLY damage, absolutely nothing but? No, of course not, no class ONLY gets CAs that do damage and zero other skills. That'd be ridiculous. So we can all agree that rangers DO get some add'l utility outside of pure damage CAs.</p><p>The real question is the <em>depth of the utility</em>, not whether it exists in the first place. I've made the analogy of the scout types on a spectrum with DPS on one end and utility on the other. Predators are closest to DPS end, rogues in the middle with a balance of both, and bards on the utility end. Every class can bring something useful to a group or raid. Depth of utility is the difference here; yes, rangers get some but it's primarily self-help utility. Not to be compared with classes who do bring real support to their group members, either via debuffs on the mobs or beneficial abilities like power-feed, stat increases, haste, resistance bonuses, etc.</p><p>As an illustration, my guildie (a 60 swash) and I were discussing our CAs the other night. He commented that nearly every CA in his arsenal has some added effect - a debuff of some sort, usually - while he has maybe one CA that causes *only* damage. If you look at our CAs, you find that the majority of our attacks are purely damage, and the CAs with some utility effect are fewer overall. That's how these classes were designed; its no accident that predators do not provide a mess of group buffs AND a lot of DPS - that's not our job.</p><p>Am I complaining? Hell no, I like my job and I like my class. We don't bring *only* DPS to the table, but our DPS is our primary purpose and it's the usual reason we're included in groups. They don't invite a ranger to disarm traps. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:23 PM</span></p>

[lilmohi]

<div></div><div>I used to group with a wizard friend all the time but after LU13 they quit grouping with me because they were jelous of my dps numbers.  I could never convince my friend that a nice chunk of my dps was from the strength buff, and the proc buff they cast on me.  On top of that my wiz friend in a tough fight would cast at least one damage shield on the tank, which does very nice damage but it is reflected as the tank's dps (might be why the tank ocasionally out damaged me pre-LU13).  On top of that on any given fight my wizard friend transfers mana to the priest as soon as it refreshes, which i'm sure had a negative impact on dps, but made it possible for the group to keep fighting longer.</div>

[pharacyde]

<div></div><p>Since I play a warlock and a ranger, he come the buff/ debuffs both have. If they are usefull or not is another thing.</p><p>- Warlocks : Buffs : Seal of ebon thought -> buffs disruptoin, ministration, ordination ..</p><p>                                Aspect of Darkness -> buffs poison/desease resist and highers the power pool of the group</p><p>                                Nihilism -> single target buff, it's a damage shield, works raid wide (pretty nice one)</p><p>                                 Virulent Grasp -> damage proc, mini dot, pretty nice to cast on rangers since they proc crazy !</p><p>                                Vulian gift -> increase power of hte target when he gets hit and reduce the power of who hits him. Only</p><p>                                                        works in group. Nice in groups if you dont have an inquisitor, useless in raids.</p><p>                     Debuffs : Anarchic Maelstrop -> group poison and desease debuff.</p><p>                                     Curse of nohtingness -> decrease INT and STR of the target</p><p>                                    Curse of desolatoin -> reduce power and health of target (useless)</p><p>Warlocks get 3 debuffs, and 5buff/procs. 1debuff is totaly useless.</p><p> </p><p>- Rangers : Buffs : Pathfinding ... oh well ... not so very usefull</p><p>                              Evac well ok mostly it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s up raids when somebody evacs but it's still nice for transportation</p><p>                  Debuffs : Debilitation arrow : does damage and reduce deflection and parry by 40 at adept III.</p><p>                                  Snipe : reduce defence by 32 at adept III</p><p>                                   Forester's Noose : decrease mit vs heat by 1428 at adept III</p><p>                                 1 poison debuff : attack speed slow if you use atrophy, mana drain if you use mana burn poisoin, you can</p><p>                                                               debuff heat/cold or poison/desease or arcane by around 800. There also poisons that</p><p>                                                               decrease STR/STA/INT/WIS and AGI.</p><p>So rangers get 4debuffs and 2 buffs. 1 debuff requires are poison, it goes off pretty fast but can be usefull for harder mobs. There is also the stun poiosn, which I use quite often in instances like Cazel or hte final mobs in PP to make it easy.</p><p> </p><p>Rangers dont bring much to the group in combat situtations other then debuffs and dps.The debuffs are mainly reduceing the avoidance of hte mob so you would hit the mob easier ! So I would just conclude that the ranger is dps based. The rangers debuff don't only increase his dps but also the groups dps. The heat debuff is nice for wizards for example. The avoidance debuff is nice for other melee classes. Last comes the poison debuff which can go any way. You can debuff STR of hte mob and help healers with doing so, or debuff the attack speed ... You can also debuff poison/desease mit of the mob and help warlocks do more dps. This is more a raid thing on harer mobs. I just look what we have in the raid as classes and decide which poison to put up.</p><p> </p><p>Warlocks help healers by debuffing STR and INT. They help their own dps by debuffing poison desease mit. They have buffs that help the groups to do more dps: damage procs and damage shields and buffing up disruption. So the warlock is dps based also, just as the ranger. They bring debuffs that increase the dps of hte group mostly. And they also have one debuf that helps the healers. For the buffs, well they have a mit buff vs poison/desease that can help the healers.</p><p> </p><p>It's safe to say that rangers/warlocks are dps oriented. Altho they have ways to debuff the mob to reduce the damage output of the mob, it is not their speciality for sure. There are other classes like shamans who are way better at that job.</p><p>Rangers are more self dps based, they dont add procs to other classes but they help them undirectly by debuffing the avoidance/mit of the mob. Warlocks help the dps of the group more directly by giving the group members procs and damage shields. So again rangers are mainly dps as are warlocks too.     </p>

[tass]

<div></div>dam, and to think this thread originally started out as a question. to the original poster ya rangers got top dps and they got snares and whatever else. Ifya like dps and adding other stuff to ur grp go a ranger. only other class that does similar dmg is ur mage class. hope this post helps, have fun choosing<div></div><p>Message Edited by holystones on <span class="date_text">02-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:21 PM</span></p>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><p>I wouldn't include the poisons that debuff attributes.  They only decrease Str, Int, Wis ect by 19.6 which is nothing on a high level mob.  The only reason I ever had these poisons was an alchy friend made them for the bonus XP.</p><p> </p><p>And don't you dare put Virulent Grasp on my Ranger.  All it will do is inflate my DPS numbers and then I'll get screamed at for being overpowered and have to use all the Agi I have to avoid the nerf bat.  Buff proc damage should go to the caster.  That's my new stance and I'm sticking with it.</p><p> </p>

[Shinta]

I remember back in the day when Wizards were heavy hitters with high DPS, HOWEVER, they didn't really have any group buffs like they do now, and the main use for wizards, in my opinion (no offense) was traveling. Rangers don't have group buffs... what? pathfinding? oh you mean that buff that any other scout would have? Oh, that's it? can't think of anything else?Disarm traps? lol what a laugh. Unless the party is near death, I have yet to have an accidental trigger kill the party. Now if they made it so that EVERY chest was trapped and could potentially kill one or all people, THEN disarm traps may actually be useful and wanted.But let's face it, if comes down to it, who's going to want Rangers over wizards? *looks around* didn't think so. Unless they just want the merry amusement of our quarkiness.  please.I hope they do not nerf us, I put in so much time in EQ1, and I don't nearly have as much time for EQ2 anymore, and after playing a fun class such as the bard in eq1, I really wanted to be a hard hitting much wanted class. I wanted to be the highest DPS without having to wear a dress. I am not looking forward to sitting for a group for several hours when all I get to play is just a couple.<div></div>

[sAs-Bartleby]

<div></div>I don´t know why debuffs are adressed to be stuff for the group?IF you put a mage or a priest to a group the resists grow, somethimes defense or something else.The result is, that everyone benefits from their buffs.If you put a ranger to a group, the only thing which changes is the runspeed. But only if he/she is the only scout in the team and the groupmembers are not riding a horse.So you will never find a Ranger (corrected) in a maintank-group.The only situation in which a ranger could be put in maintank-group is, when a paladin is chosen as MT and he can´t hold aggro.So he can put amends on the ranger and the aggro stays to him.So why are Rangers chosen in Raid groups?It is only because of their good dps.And why are Mages chosen?Because of their DPS and their possebility to buff.Next question istWhen there is no difference in DPS between a Mage and a ranger/Assasin why should any raidleader choose a Ranger/Assasin to join a Raid?Exactly: there would be no reason.They would be left alone on the Docks and 24 other players go to a raid.So from my understanding Assasins and Rangers have to be the best DPS chars and the Difference to Warlocks, Wizards and Summoners have to be significant.<p>Message Edited by sAs-Bartleby on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:50 AM</span></p>

[klepp]

<div></div><p>grr how on earth do you quote stuff!!!</p><p> </p><p>and you forgot to add, they want to be better than us "while" we are buying legenddary poisons for ~20g a pop.   If they wanted to be beter than us w/out using poisons.. sure...but.. after poisons too?  OMG quit eq2 go play ultima online.</p>

[sAs-Bartleby]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>klepp wrote:<div></div><p><b>grr how on earth do you quote stuff!!!</b></p><p> </p><p>and you forgot to add, they want to be better than us "while" we are buying legenddary poisons for ~20g a pop.   If they wanted to be beter than us w/out using poisons.. sure...but.. after poisons too?  OMG quit eq2 go play ultima online.</p><hr></blockquote>you cannot talk to me or did you?</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by sAs-Bartleby on <span class="date_text">02-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:52 AM</span></p>

[Tokam]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nimanael wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>You're obviously right, Drah. Rangers DO bring some utility to a group/raid. However, I think it is fair to say that as far as utility goes (excluding dps) rangers probably is the class bringing the least utility to the table.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Nah Nima, priests are crap - they do sweet fanny adams for the group. Honestly the number of times I've been out xp harvesting in PoF and had to shout at a lazy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] temp to get off his / her (yes this isnt gender specific) apathetic [Removed for Content] and contribute some dps instead of standing there like a lemmon.</p><p>You cant win some days...</p>