Rangers Problems

[Reztarn]

<div>Rangers are getting screwed when is comes to Heroic Opportunities (HOs)Rangers are supposed to be ranged fighters but a few things are screwed up.If we want to use HOs then we have to close into melee range.  During this time we can't use most of our ranged Combat Arts (CAs) and we can't use our Melee CAs, since we are not with melee range yet.  Then when we do get a HO off we need to then dart back out of melee range to continue.</div><div>Another problem is that we seem to be loosing CAs we can use in HOs.  Many of our CAs have been changed to ranged, BOW CAs, from things like melee, SWORD CAs.  With LU19 we lost Pierce which was one of our SWORD CAs to complete a HO.  This reduces our completion set from 5 CAs to 4 CAs within the SWORD line.</div><div>It is bad enough we are the only class required to buy expensive ammo to be properly effective.  Every class needs to buy a weapon and most pick a player made legendary weapon.  Rangers have to not only buy these melee weapons, 2 to be accurate.  We also need to buy a Bow.  I can accept this because we are more flexible and all scouts are in a similar boat.  But on top of this we have to buy expensive arrows, I wont even get into poisons.  I'll focus on the arrows.  Let us take an exampleCobalt arrows go for an average of 20s per arrow on my server.  That is 1gp for 5 arrows or 2pp for a 1,000 arrows.  This might sound like a lot of arrows to some people but any person that knows rangers know that we can burn through 1k of arrows in less then 1 raid.  If i'm on a raid I often take 2k or more worth of arrows.  This means I would have to spend 4pp+ to go on a raid.  This is about 1.5x the amount a fighter class would spend on a legendary weapon that would last them 10 levels.  We do have an alternative.  We can either buy cheaper merchant arrows or use our skills to harvest them.  The problem with the latter is that while it supplies a ranger with a constant supply of arrows for free they are 1 Tier below what we should be using for 8 levels.  Even at the point where you can get the appropriate Tier arrow, for the whopping 2 levels it is still appropriate for, you only get 1 arrow for every 20 seconds you are actually in combat.  To make things worse you have to be in melee to get said arrows.</div><div>The Tear/Arrow Rip CAs need to be adjusted.  Tear should be level 40 and Arrow Rip should be level 50.Backup Quiver should be level 44-45ish and an equivalent should be given for indium arrows at level 54-55.</div><div>At the moment it’s like telling other classes that they must use weapons of 1 Tier lower then what they should be using.</div>

[Carna]

<div></div>I'm not a Ranger, can you outline the sort of impact sub-tier arrows have on your dps?.... Geniune question; not baiting you.

[Reztarn]

<div></div><p>To give you an idea it is roughly a 60% reduction in auto attack dmg when I use the arrows I can harvest compaired to the legendary arrows.  I can't even show you the normal T6 arrows because no one will even make them.  T5 legendary arrows are 22% better then normal T6 arrows.</p><p>So you can think about it this way i'm loosing about 32% of my autoattack dmg because I can't even get T6 normal arrows until level 58 and at that point I can only get 1 every 20 seconds of melee which means I can't be doing any significant dmg.  Remember Rangers are pretty bad at melee.</p><p>So at best case situation I'm only loosing 32% of my dmg output.  At worst I'm loosing over 60% but I'm saving 4pp-6pp a raid from having to buy arrows.  Oh if I do have to buy store bought arrows because I can't harvest enough I'm up for 71gp 60sp for every 2k of arrows I buy. </p><p>Remember I can run through 2k-3k of arrows in a raid.  That means for every 7 hours I spend just harvesting arrows I save ~35gp as long as I don't use any of the arrows i harvest.  So I can spend 21 hours harvesting 3k of arrows or spend 1pp to buy 3k of arrows or I can hope there are enough T6 cobalt arrows and spend 6pp on the arrows that I should be using.  After most people I know are using the legendary level T6 weapon of their class.</p><p>21 hours harvesting and 60% dmg reduction or 6pp and normal dmg just for 1 raid.</p><p>Do you see any of this as fair?  Other classes pay 2.5pp once off for a T6 weapon and that lasts them 10 levels.</p>

[King Leor]

<div>The tier of arrows we use (while raiding anyways) makes up for diddly so it doesn't matter at all. If you parse a full night of raiding and look at each encounter you will see our auto attack makes up for either 1% or 0% of our totalt dmg for the fight. So Using all legendary and paying out your butt for em to raid with is silly and wont make any noticable difference. Plus in beta the way it is no we do summon t7 artrows unlike now where we summon t5. :0)</div><div> </div><div>LeoricLevel 60 ranger</div>

[Carna]

<div></div>Thanks for the response.

[Reztarn]

<div>Arrows was only a secondary concern of mine.  My primary concern is rangers and HOs.  I'm concerned with poisons and arrows.  I have parsed out using T6 legendary compared to T5 summoned arrows.  autoattacks start to rack up a fair bit of dmg.  The T6 arrows hit alot harder agianst T6 mobs then T5 arrows.</div><div> </div><div>Talk about beta all you want but there is a problem with T6 level full stop.  Most of KoS is all going to be T7 changes which means squat to those of us still climbing through the 40s and 50s.  Nice for you at level 60 ready to run for level 70 but when I'm level 60 I I'll still be concerned with the rangers below me.</div><div> </div>

[Reztarn]

<div></div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=202596"><span>King Leoric</span></a> let me ask you .... how much of your damage comes from poisions?  Agian we are a class that pays for much of our Dmg output.  While other scouts wear the poisons cost too we just have the extra on arrows.  I can run through a plat  of poision easy on a raid. </div><div> </div><div>Basically saying autoattack doesn't matter is like saying to any other class that they might as well use weapons 1 tier lower because CAs are not effected by them. </div><div> </div><div>HOs can make a nice difference in a fight.  Hard to parse it out in the end sinse it not all dmg.  What I know is if I'm the only scout in the group I'm lucky to get 1/2 the amount of DPS in so I can finish the HOs.  Why should rangers get screwed over with HOs compaired to other scout classes.  This is my main point.</div>

[Hexus]

<div></div><p>As I've said before, and I'll say it again, the Whole HO system needs revamped, and they need to add the RANGED BOW icon to the HO instead of the sword, or make all the bow icons into sword icons so we can advance HO's at range.</p><p>As far as running HO's, I can see it in a single group, all of it being a problem.  Far as raids are concerned, I'm usually in a DPS group, and another scout class starts the HO, if required, I can use SNIPE (just slightly shorter range than RA's) to "flip" the HO, but don't really have to worry about starting or finishing them, as the melee scouts can handle it.</p><p>Arrows: Yeah, 65 arrows every 10 minutes in no way keeps up with output, I actually stock up on the summoned arrows when we're not raiding, so I have a supply, and buy the others.  Poison is the expensive part if you actually buy it, guild tradeskiller makes it and we supply combine mat's.  Especially with the poison revamp on amount of procs that each charge gives, and the amount we proc with the bow.</p><p>Hexus Lupis</p><p>60 Ranger - Valor - Kithicoriak</p>

[Reztarn]

<div>I was using a 200 charge T6 legendary poison.  Fights where not even lasting 2-3 seconds but I was using 2-3 charges of poison per mob.</div><div>What good is a 24 second DOT when only the initial hit counts?!?!? </div><div> </div><div>For arrows I'll sit while reading doing housework or something else and tap the hotbar every 10-15 minutes of arrows.  My complaint with arrows is more when we get both the tear/rip and quiver CAs.  We should get Tear/Rip at the 1st or 2nd level of a Tier and maybe the quiver at 5th level of a tier.</div>

[TaleraRis]

We didn't lose Pierce. At 40, I have that as my Lightning Strike, and then there's the Bleed line and the line with Lunging Thrust.  That's three melee attacks I regularly use to end my HOs. Besides stealth, those are all I remember ever having to complete HOs.<div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<div></div><div>Hi there Carnagh.  Leoric is correct that arrow tier means very little on Raids or in genereal group or solo play.  Don't get us wrong higher tier arrows do a significant amount more damage (100-200 at T2,  600-900 at T6) but arrow tier doesn't effect CA's at all.  Contrary to popular belief Ranger bow CA's have casting times of 1-5 sec plus some have added cast time do to having to stealth.  Because of that Rangers tend to continuously cycle through their CA's and spend little to no time using Auto Bow attack.  The only Auto Bow damage we do is the few arrows that go off between cycling CA's.</div><div> </div><div>That is why most Raid Ranger's don't worry about arrow tiers.  The Auto Bow damage is just to minimal to be worth the huge expense.  I know Leoric like myself carry around two quivers.  One filled with summoned T5 arrows for pierce and one filled with T2 hunting arrows for slashing damage.  Spending money on legendary or even T6 arrows is just a waste of cash.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>PS - Carnagh don't fall for everything Masseman says in that thread on your Swashy boards.  Him and his Wizard/Warlock buddies have been slamming on Rangers for months now.  I just decided to act like them for a little bit.  Didn't mean to highjack your guys thread.</div><div> </div>

[KdB]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Reztarn wrote:<div></div><p>To give you an idea it is roughly a 60% reduction in auto attack dmg when I use the arrows I can harvest compaired to the legendary arrows.  I can't even show you the normal T6 arrows because no one will even make them.  T5 legendary arrows are 22% better then normal T6 arrows.</p><hr></blockquote>T6 Indium arrows, 3g a stack from the archery shop in Eldarr Grove.

[Llaere]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KdBoy wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Reztarn wrote:<div></div><p>To give you an idea it is roughly a 60% reduction in auto attack dmg when I use the arrows I can harvest compaired to the legendary arrows.  I can't even show you the normal T6 arrows because no one will even make them.  T5 legendary arrows are 22% better then normal T6 arrows.</p><hr></blockquote>T6 Indium arrows, 3g a stack from the archery shop in Eldarr Grove.<hr></blockquote><p>Yay so I can spend 75g approx on a raid in arrows! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>So seriously...what is good to carry on raids for arrows, I just started raiding, and am the only high level ranger in my guild so no one to ask for advice, i'm kinda lost on the forums here too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I only have the summoned arrows but I noticed on certain mobs i have to melee cause they don't hit for crap, then my dps is baaaaad.</p><p>I'm using an imbued ironwood bow, 2 imbued cobalt weaps, have a few pieces of fabled armor and the rest cobalt (working on the armor as we raid) i have mostly vanadium jewelry with a few pieces of fabled mixed in, and 2 rare dollies.  All of my bow CA's are ad3 or masters (didn't bother upgrading the melee ones since i rarely solo)  Besides getting some better raid loot, the only thing i can see making me any better would be a different type of arrow...and i don't have the money to be spending that much on cobalt arrows tbh...i'm already pushing it with just keeping the legendary poisons in stock for raiding.</p><p>Any ideas would be awesome</p>

[King Leor]

<div></div><p>Your tier of arrow wont contribute towards your chance of hitting the mobs Llaereth, I use t2 slahing arrows on pierce immune mobs and still hit 99% of the time (unless it's a mob like the blackqueen who is a pain to hit). And as I posted above our auto attack dmg makes up for 1% and sometimes 0% of the dmg we do in a fight, so it's silly to spend a tonne of money on em. It makes perfect sense however to buy the best poisons you can because they make up for 30% - 40% of our total dmg while raiding. Also if you find your having a hard time hitting the mobs it may be becaus ethe rest of your guild isn't debuffing it so a good way to ensure your gonna hit the mob is to carry debuff poisons for pierce and slash.</p><p>LeoricLevel 60 ranger</p>

[Echothunder]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>As you may notice I am not one to post so often, how ever I am a daily follower on the forums.  This thread has two point that provoke my thoughts I would like to share.</p><p>First, HO's... Now maybe I suck cause I stopped caring about them but really. HO's are a joke compared to our CA's. And I personally see no point in even worrying about completing them unless I've already burned through my ranged and back attacks initially. Even then It is  if I happen to have any CA's up now and when it comes up the HO probably isnt hanging.  Now I get many requests for Scout HO's as starters and I am happily abliged to kick off the HO when ever its up. After that why? The damage we do is far more devastating then "most" of the HO's.   So please any one correct me on this if I am off base, flames not required but are HO's so magnificant I should hold back pumpin out max dps so I have CA's ready?</p><p>Second, Auto attack! You can't just read parse numbers and decide oh its percentage is nill. In reality with auto attack engaged every CA you let off has a 2nd arrow fired with it.. Thats basically double fire. And if you add the Dmg from an Iron wood that second shot with every CA matters considerably. Now add in the % of change to proc your 200-350pt+ proc and the Quick shot proc from our buff all off a sudden 2 shots going off with each CA is significant. Now add in the poison proc. Thats 3 procs with that much more of a chance to go off. Of course with our triple shot line or even Storm n stream that extra arrow seems less significant but its not. Right now I believe I have 6 or 8 active Bow CA's thats 6 or 8 extra shots fired, which is that much more chance of proc'n the bow,our buff, and poison. Imho that adds up considerably.</p><p>Now I am sure some of you can rip this to pieces with math and percentages to prove maybe that its not so significant how ever, doesn't every shot count? Thats why we chase down haste gear, and the best weaps, and pump are stats piece by piece, cause every little piece counts? That being said I am inclined to agree with the message I got out of this thread which is ... It is a very very expensive proposition to play a Ranger to its fullest potential.  Nope were not finger wigglers pushin a few max dmg buttons, and were not the ever beloved tanks keeping every one safe making the enemy hate us, nor are we the ever so precious priests that save every one's bacon from moment to moment.  Not at all, we are RANGERS! We are often respected, most often misunderstood, under appreciated and hardly glorified. But WE know, our idea of saving lives is kill that thing NOW!</p><p>Yes arrows cost cost cost.. poisons specially after L19 burn burn cost , the price we must be to be so Glorious. Life of a Ranger</p><p>ROAR!</p><p>Crossbow Artillery'Cannon the Loyal</p><p>49th Lvl Ogre Ranger Najena</p><p>Message Edited by Echothunder on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:34 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Echothunder on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:36 AM</span></p>

[kopingOwen]

oh well since i´m assassin i sorta have the same problem... in raids anyways since i have to joust alot.i think they fixed arrows not long ago.. copare a tier 1 arrow with a t6 and u see some difference in auto attack damagetier 1 autoattack = 100-150 damage for me (since i´m assassin and have +%dps rather then +%haste then u do this might differ)tier 6 autoattack = 600-1200 damageand i just use the merchant ones.. i´ve heard numbers in the 2k damage range on cobalt arrowsbut 60gp for a quiver of arrows is alittle too much imho expecially for rangers since you guys burn thru alot

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#99ff99">Not sure how helpful this will be, but goin back to the OPS concern with having to run in to complete an HO, and then run back out.....Learn to find the "sweet spot"   It is the position that allows you to use both melee and ranged (except Sniper's and possibly SoA)  Unless you are in a raid and worrying about max-ranging due to a nasty AoE hitting you, there is no reason you cant stand in the "sweet spot" and HO as well as range away.But man o man, watch how much faster you burn thru mana when you are there :smileywink: Here is a post pull system Ill occasionally use....After pull, run in until both your ranged AND melee icons show that u are in range (used to be harder before the range meter on icons, but sweet spot was bigger too)Flank the target ---> Trick of the Hunter/Snipe (I always start a fight with and cycle debuffs) ---> You or grp mate start HO --> Snipe/evade/cheap shot to roll HO ---> cycle all melee attacks (will finish HO) ---> cycle debuffs again ---> Flank attack into stealth ---> stealth attack ---> Evade/Surveil ---> cycle all ranged attacks --->Rinse and repeat if its a long fight!  OH, and if your tank isnt the best at aggro mngmt, might need to slow it down a bit LOL</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">But I also have to agree, since Snipe is a ranged attack and rolls the HO, it would be nice if we had a finishing move that was ranged also. Especially when you DO have to stay at max range and you have caster buddies throwin out HOs like crazy. :smileyvery-happy:</font></p><p><font color="#99ff99">Oh, also, in many raids I will even occasionally use tin arrows, just due to the fact that I VERY RARELY ever rest long enough to auto attack. My style is to cycle all ranged with deaggro thrown in, run in and joust with all my melee, debuffs, and evade, then run back out for all bow CAs again. And if you get good at AoE reads, or have a raid AoE caller, its hella fun to take on the challenge of getting it all timed right to stay alive and max out all your DPS with ALL your CAs. Just hope you are lucky enough to get a pumper in your group for the gruesome amounts of mana you will burn doin that. I guess I just  hate bein ragged on  by melee classes (/cough my assassin and brawler friends) because i have the ability to stand back and just shoot, so i joust...maybe to just prove a point :smileywink:</font></p><p>Message Edited by Dirtgirl on <span class="date_text">02-13-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:03 AM</span></p>

[Jeris Nefz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Reztarn wrote:<div></div><div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=202596"><span>King Leoric</span></a> let me ask you .... how much of your damage comes from poisions?  Agian we are a class that pays for much of our Dmg output.  While other scouts wear the poisons cost too we just have the extra on arrows. <strong><font color="#66ffcc"> I can run through a plat  of poision easy on a raid. </font></strong></div><div> </div><div>Basically saying autoattack doesn't matter is like saying to any other class that they might as well use weapons 1 tier lower because CAs are not effected by them. </div><div> </div><div>HOs can make a nice difference in a fight.  Hard to parse it out in the end sinse it not all dmg.  What I know is if I'm the only scout in the group I'm lucky to get 1/2 the amount of DPS in so I can finish the HOs.  Why should rangers get screwed over with HOs compaired to other scout classes.  This is my main point.</div><hr></blockquote><p>You said earlier that you go through roughly 2000 arrows in a raid (not an unreasonable amount), yet I find it hard to believe that you go through a plat of poison on one raid.  Given that on average you get a proc off of EVERY arrow you use, that means you are using 2000 procs.  Since each charge of damage poison has 200 procs, that means that you need 10 charges (roughly 1.5 vials) for those 2000 arrows.  Now assuming that you are using 3 different types of poison, correct my math if I am wrong.  If you are going through 1 plat a raid, does that mean that you are spending 25-30g per vial of poison?  If that is the case, find a alchy friend or make one yourself.  You will make that money back as you sell poisons for a fraction of that.  On my server, they sell for around 10-12g. </p><p>As far as for HOs, I agree.  there should be some ranged completion of HOs for scouts.  Personally though, while it would be nice, it is not necessary imho.  I do enough damage to not really worry about them.  I advance them as necessary, but usually things die quick enough that I don't have to worry about it.  If it is a raid situation, other scouts usually advance/complete HOs so I don't worry about them. </p>

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><p>Well, luckily Adeste's does have 200 charges, as well as Blizzard and other common debuffs, but not all do. Some higher damage rare DD, DoT, and debuffs only proc 4 times. (obviously I dont use these much)</p><p>But, on a raid against a caster mob...oh say Sunchild and his heat AoE, I can <u>easily</u> burn thru 4 or 5 vials of Kendricke's to try and keep the bastage stiffled. Luckily I am guilded with crafters who put all of their loams into the bank for our jeweler to make vials and our alchi to make poisons, so I dont personally spend alot. But I have regularly seen Kendricke's listed for 15gp and up per vial of 6 or 7 charges. But let me tell ya, the healers and tank love havin ANY AoE stifled, and our poison is the only stifle that works agains Epics.:smileytongue:</p><p>Also, if you are raiding t5 at level 60, I have personally seen myself go thru 2 to 3 vials of DoT and debuff each since it hits so much more often. So a plat just for poison could be a little exaggerated, but I know it could come close some days. I'm just glad for my guild crafters.</p>

[Deml]

<div></div>If a poison only has 4 procs on it, don't use it.  I have found very little use for any poison with 4 procs on it.  They are gone way too fast and are way too expensive for the small overall use you get from them.  Compare a vial of your extreme damage poison with 4 procs to a vial of Adeste.  More than likely you will pay the same for both poisons but you get 200 procs with Adeste, 4 with the extreme damage poison.  Is the extra 800 damage from 4 procs really worth it, when you would lose 8 seconds mid fight to reapply that poison for 4 more procs.  How many times in 8 seconds could you proc adeste, especially if you are using skills like triple arrow and precise shot?

[Dirtgirl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dirtgirl wrote:<div></div><p>Well, luckily Adeste's does have 200 charges, as well as Blizzard and other common debuffs, but not all do. <font color="#ffff00">Some higher damage rare DD, DoT, and <font color="#ffff00">debuffs</font> only proc 4 times. </font><font color="#ffccff">(obviously I dont use these much)</font></p><p>But, on a raid against a caster mob...oh say Sunchild and his heat AoE, I can <u>easily</u> burn thru <font color="#ffff00">4 or 5 vials of Kendricke's to try and keep the bastage <font color="#ffff00">stiffled</font>......</font></p><hr></blockquote>I dont use 4 proc-ers with the exception of the rare debuffs. We actually have a poison assignment for our scouts in the guild on raids. It helps minimize waste by not running 2 poisons that dont stack between scouts. Each of us is responsible for a <em>diffrent</em> damage, debuff, and rare debuff (stifle, stun, slow, wis/int, ect...) All the rare debuffs are 4 charges each, but are invaluable against certain nasty raid mobs. I personally probably go thru the most charges with the stifle compared to any of the other debuffs, because bein able to stifle a mob on a raid is priceless...

[DrifterOme]

<div></div><p>The only time I really use my HOs is for soloing.  And when I mean soloing, i mean the named mobs throughout lvl 2 and 3 of the clefts, and other named found through DoF.  Furthermore, I have no problem completing any of my HOs when I start them.  I do notice from time to time that I will get reposted, miss, or block, thus, my HO will not complete.  But to my knowledge, there is nothing broken in the scout HO wheel.</p><p>As for arrows and poisons.  Makeshift arrows for soloing, and indium stock piled while I solo.  Ill spend 30 gold and grab a few extra indium stacks before raiding, but normally have about a good 1500 to 2K amount of indium for raiding. </p><p>Poisons, well, thats actually simple.  Stockpile a few plat, find a decent alchemist and place a huge order with them.  I personally order 200 vials of poisons/potions at a time.  You will be surprised at the deals you get.  Also, if you have adept III's, or jewelry made, ask for the loams back.  Each loam has the option to make the special vile to hold the legendary poisons/potions.  If you produce the loam or vial, you will see a huge price difference when buying your poisons.</p><p>Lastly, Ranger melee is not all a waste as some people believe.  Run your ranged, go to your melee(with threat reducers), drop back and stream, and your ranged should be up again.  There is alot of different methods, but that's a very basic one that works, just make sure you cycle your threat reducers or you will become cannon fodder.</p>

[jrisley69]

<div></div>honestly, i don't care about HO's in a group situation, cuz that HO is negligible to the amount of damage i should be concentrating on doing to the mob.  When i'm in a group, my job is to kill the mob.  I'm not gonna get distracted cuz someone throws off an HO and i need to run in and do some melee attack.  i stand my ground and keep firing arrows.  Only time i HO is when i solo, and even then all i care about is Swindler's and Bravo HO's.