Full implications of LU#19 have yet to be felt due to excessive poison procs via arrows.

[Nulad]

<div></div>Procs... procs... procs...So we lost procs in ranged combat from melee weapons, I understand that, I also understand why people are up in arms about the apparent removal of procs from other items such as helms, bp's etc, etc.  Most of us are just getting on with life as we always do by adapting and overcoming and at the end of the day we have not been hit too hard as our DPS is still up there, but ask yourself why it's still up there?Poison, next time you're in game count how many arrows you use in a fight and count the procs from your poison at the same time, 99% of my arrows were proccing poison so it's no wonder my DPS is still up there.  This was from a 25% chance poison so how does the maths work on that?  Is it intentional or not?My concerns:1) Cost, there has been a noticeable increase in my poison useage since LU#19 due to the above noted effect.2) DPS, <b><i>IF</i></b> poison is not meant to be proccing this much (and I'm guessing it isn't, just count how much you use while in melee...) if and when it gets '<b><i>fixed</i></b>' we will see the true effect of the original proc changes from LU#19 which will leave us at a large DPS deficit to what we are now.As it stands a low initial, high dot damage poison is utterly pointless for ranged combat (we all knew that right?) but would be the best choice for current melee combat from what I have observed,On the other hand I could be totally wrong <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Comments?Nul.<div></div>

[GrayStorm]

<div></div><p>I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this coming. </p><p>I can't wait until KoS when things get 'fixed' and all the FANBOI's in here are being asked to sit out on raids b/c their dps is in the crapper. </p>

[Fennir]

Right now this is what's keeping us as T1 DPS.  If they modify poison procs and we're no longer T1 DPS like we're supposed to be, then I'm sure I'll ask to be fixed.My relationship with my class may not have as much to do with the numbers flying over a mobs head as some, which makes changes to my class easier to handle.  Be aware this does not mean I won't report problems with the game or ask for changes, I just won't do it by acting like a child.  I hope. =)<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I agree.... if poison stops proccing as much we will be hurt bad.  Here is a pie graph of my damage to get an ideah of % of poison damage.</p><p> </p><p>one typical fight grouping my level 40</p><img src="http://www.imahosting.com/sigs/p01son.jpg"><p>Message Edited by Niuan on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:48 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Niuan on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:53 AM</span></p>

[Marcuzs]

<div></div>From your pick I don't see much of an increase in proc rate. Normally on long fights poison takes up 40% of my damage long before LU19 came out (maybe even LU 1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. What I did find surprising was Glimmering Strike actually acounted for 12% of your damage. Typically Gilmmering Strike only accounts for 1 to 3% of my damage. Purhaps that just means the proc is only broken on the Ironwood bow and not the rest.

[Fennir]

He posted a parse of a 15 second fight where he fired 3 bow shots.  That's why the percentages are funky.<div></div>

[AfflictedOne]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nuladen wrote:<div></div>1) Cost, there has been a noticeable increase in my poison useage since LU#19 due to the above noted effect.2) DPS, <b><i>IF</i></b> poison is not meant to be proccing this much (and I'm guessing it isn't, just count how much you use while in melee...) if and when it gets '<b><i>fixed</i></b>' we will see the true effect of the original proc changes from LU#19 which will leave us at a large DPS deficit to what we are now.<hr></blockquote></span>1) Your cost should show no increase.  Poison has proced like this for almost a year and a half since the game was in beta.  Any change is just your own perception.2) Procs were designed for slow weapons to proc more often.  It's been doing this since the game was in beta.  It's there to try to give the slower weapons the same chance at procing as the faster ones.  Not to mention if you haven't noticed the longbow does way less autoattack damage than 2 dw weapons.  The damage from 1 bow attack can be about the same as one swing from a nice dw sword.  When you take into consideration that the dw is swinging twice a round and 3-4 more rounds in the same time a bow fires once, the extra procs are intended to even out the damage imo.  Also ranged combat arts have from 2 to 10 times as long cast timers as melee attacks ( all non ae melee combat arts have .5 sec cast ).  So if they don't do 2-10 times the damage as the melee combat arts then they have to proc more.<div></div>

[Nulad]

<div></div>1) It's also your perception.  My poison cost has gone up and I am directly attributing it to the amount of procs I get from my bow.  As for your comments about it proccing like this since beta, which beta and eq2 was that, because it certainly hasn't been the one that I have been playing.2) While I understand that fact that the proc rate vs actual figures is a complex thing I still feel (operative word here, I'm not saying I'm right, it's just a gut feeling) that we are going to get clobbered when it's looked at.Nul.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Nuladen on <span class="date_text">02-09-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:28 PM</span></p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:He posted a parse of a 15 second fight where he fired 3 bow shots.  That's why the percentages are funky.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>when grouping not raiding... Do many fights last longer than 15 secs?  Depends on play style... But typical fights I just lay back with the healers and kill when tank has sufficient agro.</p><p>Poison procs make up alot of times half our damage.</p><p>I did however go back to some of my mid december parses and verified that with this play style...  results were the same.  I think there may have been some bugs were proc count was not working right... I.E.  it seems it was proccing just as much, but not taking some off the 200 count on most poison dosages.</p><p>whatever it is... I have to buy poison twice as much.... dosages go twice as fast... not complaining because the proc count the poison buff shows seems accurate after looking at parses closely.</p>

[Fennir]

It's not about the playstyle.When you are grouping, a fight may last 15 seconds, but then there is often cooldown time before pulls where your skills have time to refresh a bit.  The only way to figure out exactly what percentage of our DPS (damage over time) a skill or proc is, is on a raid, because thats the only time a fight lasts long enough to show a true picture of our sustained DPS.  On a sustained fight, poison is never half of my damage; usually closer to 1/3 or so.And I am 100% positive that poisons have not changed.  Before the update, I was still burning through poisons like crazy and am still applying them at the exact same rate as before.  We have always been proc heavy and expensive to play.<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:It's not about the playstyle.When you are grouping, a fight may last 15 seconds, but then there is often cooldown time before pulls where your skills have time to refresh a bit.  The only way to figure out exactly what percentage of our DPS (damage over time) a skill or proc is, is on a raid, because thats the only time a fight lasts long enough to show a true picture of our sustained DPS.  On a sustained fight, poison is never half of my damage; usually closer to 1/3 or so.And I am 100% positive that poisons have not changed.  Before the update, I was still burning through poisons like crazy and am still applying them at the exact same rate as before.  We have always been proc heavy and expensive to play.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>There was something going on with poisons for sure before LU19 I think it was bugged before.  For example my last ranger I had in his 30's I bought one legendary poison vile.... and that sucker kept recharging...  I'm sure of it because at that time the 5 gold really hurt my poor ranger and I was careful not to use too much.  That one vial lasted for ever!  I don't know if it was a zone recharge bug or what...</p><p>Raid damage parsing may not be that accurate either as typically you are buffed to god status.  the parse was just one fight, but typical numbers.  Some fights had slightly more proccs, some slightly less.  But the median seems to fall at approximately 50% of bow damage comes from poisons if you have good poisons.</p><p> </p><p>another note... parse was not outlining DPS as argued does not show sustained dps.  It was outling proc % of arrow hits.</p><p>Message Edited by Niuan on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:30 AM</span></p>

[Cael]

<div></div>Im with Niuan on this one. I think before LU19, poisons were lasting well over 200 procs. And they fixed it. Unfortunate for our wallets, but IMO, nothing actually changed

[Fennir]

There used to be a recharge bug with potions/poisons, but they fixed that before LU19.  Probably closer to LU14 or 15.  Since then, poisons have been working exactly the same.  Pre-LU19 I'd had poisons fall off very fast depending on how hard I was playing.  I've been buying poisons in bulk for a long time and would notice if I was actually spending any more or less since the recharge bug was fixed.And raid-buffed means 2 things: someone added procs to your damage or someone buffed your STR or INT.  My INT is rarely buffed on raids and the most STR I can gain is about 140 to hit the cap.  All this does is boost my damage a bit across the board, not change proc percentages.  It's also quite easy to see which procs are from where, and only count the ones you gave yourself (poison, ancient venom, gleaming strike, etc.) when trying to get a full picture.We also often 1-group T5 raids, where I have very little in the way of buffs.  Either way, the point stands.  It's impossible to get a clear picture of ranger DPS from a short XP fight.<div></div>

[AratornCalahn]

Hope you dont get nerfed, the meele thing was needed cos it was a little stupid, but your DPS is your DPS and should be high, hope you dont get nerfed (like Brigands did).<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:There used to be a recharge bug with potions/poisons, but they fixed that before LU19.  Probably closer to LU14 or 15.  Since then, poisons have been working exactly the same.  Pre-LU19 I'd had poisons fall off very fast depending on how hard I was playing.  I've been buying poisons in bulk for a long time and would notice if I was actually spending any more or less since the recharge bug was fixed.And raid-buffed means 2 things: someone added procs to your damage or someone buffed your STR or INT.  My INT is rarely buffed on raids and the most STR I can gain is about 140 to hit the cap.  All this does is boost my damage a bit across the board, not change proc percentages.  It's also quite easy to see which procs are from where, and only count the ones you gave yourself (poison, ancient venom, gleaming strike, etc.) when trying to get a full picture.We also often 1-group T5 raids, where I have very little in the way of buffs.  Either way, the point stands.  It's impossible to get a clear picture of ranger DPS from a short XP fight.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't want to argue this one, no point.  You have your oppinion I have mine.  Wether the fight lasts 5 seconds, or the fight lasts 10 hours  the percentange of procs per arrow should be the same.   If I was argueing sustained dps numbers I would agree with you.  But proc percentage whould be steady across the board.  Dps and proc percentage are two different numbers.

[illum]

<div></div><p>There was a point where poisons were proc'ing off poisons right after the first LU19 patch, but one of the post LU19 patch patches seems to have fixed that.  Not sure if the proc count is fixed or bugged though...one of these days when I'm not feeling lazy I'll have to do some logging and fight till my poison wears out, then count all the poison procs.</p><p>yeah...I'll let someone else do it :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[Fennir]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div>I don't want to argue this one, no point.  You have your oppinion I have mine.  Wether the fight lasts 5 seconds, or the fight lasts 10 hours  the percentange of procs per arrow should be the same.   If I was argueing sustained dps numbers I would agree with you.  But proc percentage whould be steady across the board.  Dps and proc percentage are two different numbers.<hr></blockquote>It's not an opinion.  Procs are based on percentages checked by a random number generator.  Anyone who knows anything about random generators understands you need a large sample for data to be close to correct.</span></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I agree.... if poison stops proccing as much we will be hurt bad.  Here is a pie graph of my damage to get an ideah of % of poison damage.</p><p> </p><p>one typical fight grouping my level 40</p><p></p><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote><p>May I remind you my exact words when posting the image...  "typical" fight....  to get an idea...  none of these were exact words.  I mentioned that some fights procced slightly more, some slightly less.  This example was a "typical" fight.</p><p>if your going to disect posts then at least read the thread.</p>

[Fennir]

My first post in the thread was agreeing with you.The first post of mine about your posted parse was directed to someone wondering about the funky proc percentages in your parse.Sooo as far as reading the thread goes, take your own advice, thanks.<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:My first post in the thread was agreeing with you.The first post of mine about your posted parse was directed to someone wondering about the funky proc percentages in your parse.Sooo as far as reading the thread goes, take your own advice, thanks.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>ok ok ok < takes deep breath></p><p>I think we are losing sight of the original line of thinking of the post.  I don't think that anyone would disagree that poison procs make a significant percentage of damage from rangers.   <the reason I posted that image is so folks who have no clue can see a "typical fight>  The image was not an icon of accuracy but rather a general idea.</p><p>Now with that said and hopefully everyone is onboard with that...  If poisons take a change in such a way that rare poisons are no longer as potent... or even exist in the new alchemy changes....  Or if devs tweak proc rate we may see a huge impact on damage potential to the class as a whole.</p>

[Nulad]

Hmmm, thats a very good point that the actual poison proc count was messed up and I was proccing this much previously without it registering as a useage.  Either way I'm still not convinced it's working as intended and am fully prepared for further dps nerfage.<div></div>Nul.

[KdB]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Poison proccing has not changed. A 25% listed proc rate on Adeste's or other poison turns into 100% actual proc rate as follows:</p><p>1) Sony balances ALL proc rates assuming you are doing only auto-attack damage. ALL procs, including Quick Shot from the offensive stance, Gleaming Strike from your bow, and the poison itself, are increased in percentage according to the delay of the longbow. The examine info refers to a 3-sec delay weapon. The longbow is 7 sec, so the actual proc rates are:</p><p>Poison: 25% x 7/3 = 58%</p><p>Quick Shot: 30% x 7/3 = 70%</p><p>Gleaming Strike: 5% x 7/3 = 12%</p><p>2) The procs can proc each other. Most important, Quick Shot can proc poison. So we have the following probabilties:</p><p>Combat Art or Autoattack => Poison: 58%</p><p>Combat Art or Autoattack => Quick Shot => Poison: 58% x 70% = 41%</p><p>Adding those up, we get a 99% chance that poison wil proc on any autoattack or art, including every arrow in Stream of Arrows. In addition to the damage that Quick Shot itself does.</p><p>My opinion is that (1) and (2) were both mistakes by Lockeye in LU13, and Rangers are very lucky that they have been so god-like in DPS because of them.</p><p>Message Edited by KdBoy on <span class="date_text">02-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:50 PM</span></p>

[King Leor]

<div>There is nothign wrong or different with the amount poisons are proccing after lu19. They have always made up for between 30 and 40% of our dmg (in long fights as short fights dont count). Nothing has changed. People may be noticing it more because we have no other procs (which im still [Removed for Content] about my shield and robe) to look at. But after parsing evry raid the poisons aren't doing anything more than what they were befor.</div><div> </div><div>LeoricLevel 60 ranger</div>

[klepp]

<div>to the OP.... so are you.. begging for a further nerfing or?</div>

[Azzazal]

MM i noticed that i can proc my RGF with my monk with me ranged attack, I also tested it on my bruiser again with 12 percent proc 2hb and again procced on ranged attacks.Is this intended to ?><font color="#cc0033">Devs should stop bowing to whinging pressure from other classes.</font>YoursFed up RangerAzzazal of eq1/2 beta till well whenever you put me to t2 dps.<div></div>

[Nulad]

I just hate being right sometimes <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Nul.<div></div>