Pulling Aggro with high damage

[Gallendo]

<div>I'm primarily a solo ranger  (35) but I've noticed when I group I'm pulling a lot of aggro and the tanks can't seem to keep them off me. Is it the group I'm with?  I see this happening when there is no guardian or shadowknight, the last tank was a Paladin. I'm not bashing any class just wondering if anybody has a suggestion on tactics in this type of group. I find myself 'dancing' alot in these situations, kiting per say, back peddling circles around the group just to stay alive.</div><div> </div><div>For the record... I love the ranger class, the damage I deliver with a bow is addictive!!!   </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Quillian Feetfa]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gallendorf wrote:<div>I'm primarily a solo ranger  (35) but I've noticed when I group I'm pulling a lot of aggro and the tanks can't seem to keep them off me. Is it the group I'm with?  I see this happening when there is no guardian or shadowknight, the last tank was a Paladin. I'm not bashing any class just wondering if anybody has a suggestion on tactics in this type of group. I find myself 'dancing' alot in these situations, kiting per say, back peddling circles around the group just to stay alive.</div><div> </div><div>For the record... I love the ranger class, the damage I deliver with a bow is addictive!!!   </div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote><p>There could be several reasons. </p><p>1) Are you using your deaggro skills?  You really need to be using them every time they refresh.  You also need to hold back some of your high damage attacks so they aren't so close together.  I know it's tough as a Ranger to hold back, but sometimes you have to.</p><p>2) Paladins get a spell called Amends.  If they put this spell on you, the hate you generate gets put onto the Paladin.  This helps the Paladin hold the the aggro better.  SK's have more of a Taunt over Time.  They take longer to really build up the aggro.  You may want to open up with some melee skills and then drop back after he gets the hate going.  You still need to use your deaggro's during the time cause you can still pull aggro.</p><p>3) It could be a bad tank.  I've never played a tank myself, but I have had great tanks that I could NOT pull aggro even when I went full out!  Those are few and far between.  I figure if one tank can do it, why can't the rest of them?  I usually go full out when I first group with a tank that I've never grouped with before.  If you get the "Wait until I build my aggro!" message from the tank, you'll have to lighten up on the damage some. (I've pulled aggro on the first bowshot of a low damage CA before!)</p><p> </p>

[Bayler_x]

I don't know how different various classes are, but some players definitely hold agro better than others.However, keep in mind that agro control is as much your responsibility as the tank's.  If you can't get away with high damage output, hold back.  And don't forget to work your anti-agro combat arts often.When you do get agro, don't dance around.  That makes it hard for group members to help you.  Instead, turn off your attacks, use your anti-agro arts if available, switch to defensive stance, and take your lumps.  The tank will be able to grab agro much more easily that way than if you're running all over the place, and the healers will be more able to throw spells at you. Probably the trickiest part about playing a group ranger is to maximize damage without taking agro.  If you're really good at it, usually nobody else in the group will even realize it.  Consider it a secret mark of pride when you can work with a poor tank and never take agro.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Resolv]

I don't know about anyone else but your title should tell you exactly what you should be doing. I get a little irritated by people that think the Tank is the ONE and ONLY one responsible for aggro management. It really is a group responsibility. That means for rangers they can't start out with their highest damage ability and they are suppose to use their deaggro spells. I know there are bad tanks out there. But if you're pulling you should be saying what am I doing wrong first. Then if you find that your easing into the damage starting off slow and then hitting them big at the end, using your deaggro spells and still pull aggro then you can START thinking its the tank. But to first start thinking its the tanks fault is rediculous. Back to your title of course you're gonna pull aggro with high damage its a no brainer, especially if you do it all at once and at the beggining of the fight.BTW I play both a tank and a ranger. So yes I know what I'm talking about.

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Resolver wrote:I don't know about anyone else but your title should tell you exactly what you should be doing. I get a little irritated by people that think the Tank is the ONE and ONLY one responsible for aggro management. It really is a group responsibility. That means for rangers they can't start out with their highest damage ability and they are suppose to use their deaggro spells. I know there are bad tanks out there. But if you're pulling you should be saying what am I doing wrong first. Then if you find that your easing into the damage starting off slow and then hitting them big at the end, using your deaggro spells and still pull aggro then you can START thinking its the tank. But to first start thinking its the tanks fault is rediculous. Back to your title of course you're gonna pull aggro with high damage its a no brainer, especially if you do it all at once and at the beggining of the fight.BTW I play both a tank and a ranger. So yes I know what I'm talking about.<hr></blockquote>I agree with Resolver on this one.  It will help you controll agro better if get master agro control spells.  They are often overlooked by rangers because they want dps dps dps.  The master spells in agro management will allow you to do more damage without making the tank chase the mob all over norrath <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Teksun]

PATIENCE is the key. Don't start off with your high damage CA's. Don't SPAM CA's. Use your Agro losing CA's. If you aren't sure about how much you can do, GO SLOW unless you could SOLO the mob, then try to find your DPS max...<div></div>

[Ranja]

<div></div><p>I agree with all that is posed. One of the main points that I think needs to get stressed is that if you do pull aggro don't dance around the place trying to lose it. And for heaven's sake do not run away!!. Dancing around and running do not de-aggro you, your de-aggro skills do. Shoud you pull aggro go stand next to the tank, turn off auto-attack, and spam your de-aggro skills. If you have to die then die :smileyvery-happy:  and wait for the rez. If you are running around healers cant heal you, and you will probably draw aggro from somewhere else and that leads to a group wipe.</p><p>#1 rule go slow and test your threshold with each tank Usually when I draw aggro I am just over the threshold so a simple click of Improved Surveil and the tank will get it right back. Practice makes perfect</p><p>Elbryan60 Ranger</p>

[Jayad]

<div></div><div>Rangers can do more damage than tanks can keep aggro.  You have to learn to pace yourself.  SOE doesn't consider this a problem.  Different tanks provide a different amount of dps cushion.  One technique you can use is to give the tank time for 2 taunts before hitting it big.  In most cases this will work okay. </div><div> </div><div>If you peel, there's two choices.  You can use your stun, back up a few steps, and blast it with a big CA if it's almost dead.  Or, you use your de-aggro techniques and try to get it back on the tank.  (This means stop doing damage)  It goes without saying that you want to be using your de-aggro techniques.</div><div> </div><div>The only "safe" tank is a Pally with adept3 or master1 amends cast on you.</div><div> </div>

[Gallendo]

<div></div><div>Thank you all for the input.</div><div> </div><div>Yes I have been using the same tactics in a group that I am soloing ie; hit them hard and fast before they get to me. I don't de-aggro when soloing..why, they know who hit them.:smileyvery-happy:</div><div> </div><div>I'll take the patience and de-aggro tactic to heart and try it in my next group.</div><div> </div><div>The back peddling I use is a last ditch effort still getting in auto-range attacks, but I never run in a group, I'd rather die at the tanks feet.</div><div> </div><div>Thank again.</div><div> </div><div>Resolver..I was in no means suggesting that the tank was the fault. In fact, my 1st assumption was that I was using the wrong tactics (as was pointed out) in the group enviroment.</div><p>Message Edited by Gallendorf on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:42 AM</span></p>

[Terq]

<div>You stated that you primarily solo.  When soloing, you don't really care about agro, you just kill everything as fast as possible.  However, in a group, the dynamic changes.  You might have picked up some habits that aren't group friendly. </div><div> </div><div>Any decent DPS player going all out can pull agro off a tank.  The trick is to learn how much damage you can put out without pulling agro.  There is no hard and fast rule, you just develop a feel for it. </div>

[Qwexer]

Just got to say...Wow thank you for this whole post it is mucho help.  I admit I have been that ADHD Ranger chasing his tail when aggroed and never thought or changing stances.  Thanks guys.<span></span><span>Woodfire and his trusty sidekick Splinters31 Ranger 75th RegimentHighkeep (soon to be crashing butcherblocks party)Servants of ElizurTrader of collectibles pst me anytime</span><div></div>

[xandez]

Well, IF your tank knows what he/she is doing AND you give him just some time after the initial pull before you start shooting... You really shouldnt get any aggro. Of course you could/should use evasion line de-aggro and stalk line de-aggro while shooting.So, with a good tank the aggro shouldnt be an issue. Just dont start too early, the initial aggro is the most important for the tank and also the most easiest way for you to grab aggro is to start shooting right after the pull <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />++Xan<div></div>

[Cael]

<div></div><p>It always makes me chuckle when I pull aggro with leg shot. It does what, like 100 dmg, and the tank gets all [Removed for Content], yeah, I chuckle</p><p>But other than that, what I do, depending on the mob, is I wont do anything for a few seconds. Maybe just one or 2, let the wizzies hit it some, let the healers heal one time, and in that time, they should have thrown up several taunts and you should be good. Thats just me though</p>

[Jayad]

<div></div><p>Many tanks don't know what they're doing.  They'll pull with some 25 damage distance spell and not taunt.  It's easy to peel when they have no hate built up.  Good tanks either pull with taunts (solo + group) or do one as soon as they come in range.  You have to learn to wait for at least that first taunt. </p><p>Yes, lots of tanks, especially 'dps' tanks will do their 150 dd attack instead of a taunt which builds up 1000 hate.  Ow.  Just goes to show you there's people in every class that don't know what they're doing.</p><p>I was playing with a T6 fabled tank a week and a half ago who kept pulling mobs through other groups of mobs when they're social.  And he kept acting like it was Sony's fault we'd get 2x or 3x pulls.  Ayeiii.  (There are a lot of pathing problems on pulls but this wasn't the case)</p>

[Saracyn]

<div></div><p>Dealing high damage while not pulling aggro really is an art.  It is one of the things I pride myself being able to do.  Just think of the poor casters that don't have all our hate reducing CAs.  I do get a bit spoiled because my typical group consists of a Pally with Adept 3 amends on me and a Inquisitor with whatever that spell is that gives him power every time I hit.  Let me tell you this is a rangers dream team!  Nothing better than your tank AND your healer WANTING you to unleash!  :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>WIth that said, you do have to play with your aggro control.  I call it the aggro dance...start out with improved surveil, hit with a sneak attack (lowest damage one), run into evade range and evade, back out for some small ranged hits...</p>

[Berek_IronAxe]

<div></div><div>Having my main as a Tank I can field this, but all the posts here are right on the money:</div><div> </div><div>Sounds Like a Tank issue.  Unless of course you are hitting with your highest damage at the same time as the pull but the Tank (Pallie or Guardian) should be able to yank it back quickly.  The Tank should be pulling with his biggest taunt in the HOTL stance, followed by a good attack.  For a social aggro situation you will have to be a little more careful since the tank will have to aggro the mob with proximity instead of Taunt or bowshot.  Hold your attack until you see that Red flare on the mob - you know at that point he has fired his taunt.</div><div>Once a Guardian sets himself it should be Rare that pull aggro off of him/her unless you are not using any of your Aggro reducers.  My Ranger has run with every tank Class and the only time I have had problems is if the Tank is having problems with his/her class - the only one I have had aggro issues with is the Brawler Class ( I have to hold back)  since they are limited on Taunts compared to Warriors they rely on Damage mostly to hold and a Ranger can out DPS them any day of the week.</div><div>I hope this helps.</div>

[TimUK]

<div></div>In reality if the tank knows what theyre doing, then when they pull initially they will taunt, then he will straight away start the first HO and taunt again, i would wait until he does the next HO and taunts then start banging away with the moves, as for the post above of course rangers out dps brawlers, but thats why they have a move that ups the hate gain each hit, i think dragon advance does something like +125 hate each hit

[mengal]

<div>being new to the game, i totally understand where your comming from.</div><div> </div><div>so what I have done, is all my melee are on my main toolbar.  all my ranged are on the bar above that.</div><div> </div><div>I have maped my F1 - F12 to the second row, and put all  buff's and utility spells on a third bar on the right side.</div><div> </div><div>F1 - F4 are DE Agro functions.</div><div> </div><div>everything else is personal options.</div><div> </div><div>Basicallly, in a group,  if I pull agro, I have a few known buttons I can mash on to defuse the situation.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>But, dont always assume its your fault,  I once saw a Berzerker yell at a wizard and tell him to not use so many offensive spells.  and after a good laugh , the rest of the group asked the wizard to slow down on the opening nukes and  use some counter hate spells (still not sure if he had any)</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Being a ranger is a interesting Dance,  if you pull to soon you pull agro,  and if you open too late you get yelled at for not doing enough DPS.</div><div> </div><div>my advise with each group, open late,  experiment a bit with your tanks holding capability, if you notice he holds very well, then increase your DPS.  but try to keep the agro pulling down to 1 in 10 pulls.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div>unless you can pull agro and kill it before it gets to ya <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>nothing like pulling agro and owning the mob too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div> </div>

[roblinb]

<div></div><p>A tank needs time to develop a lot of hate, that's the key to being a good group member and not making the healer's life hell.  Don't even start auto fire until the tank has ran back to the group and turned the mob so that the rest of the group is facing it's back.  (If the tank is not turning the mob, they are not correctly tanking).  Auto fire for a bit, then try a CA like your Flaming Shot line.  Slow it with Leg Shot.  Let auto fire continue, and be patient.  Once the mob is getting close to orange health, you can start blasting your high damage fun stuff.  NEVER use Stream Of Arrows until the mob is almost dead once you get that spell.  You can evade/surviel all you want and you will still get beat down because that spell draws a lot of hate.  If at anytime you draw aggro, immediately switch to melee and initiate an HO.  If nobody immediately advances the HO, go ahead and finish your scout one.  Once a tough mob is on top of you, you need all the help you can get.</p><p>From my experiences, the above is your best bet to be successful in a group and manage your aggro.</p>