Culling *our* Herd :)

[Jay]

<div>I just had a thought. These changes are hitting everyone pretty hard, we're at each other's throats, etc. I've let the antagonism get to me, too. But what I realized is this: whining and going into a rage about the changes hurts nobody but yourself. You undermine your own good time by flipping out over everything. This is what culls the herd, IMO - not whether you're a 'true' ranger, or play the class for the 'right' reasons, but whether you can continue to enjoy it and keep your head on your shoulders in the face of adversity like this. This shouldn't be confused with pacifism, as those people can and will still agitate for change - but my bet is that they'll continue to play the game and have fun being rangers while doing so.</div><div> </div><div>The others will scream and rave and it won't change anything but their own experience. They'll log in and hate it; they can't wear the daddy pants anymore and thus they have no real reason to play. I guess the biggest thing that just struck me is that those who are so full of anger over this aren't really doing anyone any favors, they aren't really helping the cause, but they're not really hurting the rest of us, either. They're just hurting themselves. Yeah, the whining and melodrama gets old, but it'll go away eventually. It's tedious to hear people cry about being nerfed, but <em>you're only a "nerfed ranger" if you let yourself be.</em></div><div> </div><div>Personally, I haven't been nerfed. Sorry if you feel you have been. These changes weren't so significant as to cripple the class, but they may have crippled some of its players.</div>

[Jayad]

<div></div><p>If you had invested hundreds of hours equipping your ranger a certain way because it worked the best, and suddenly somebody changed the rules, I think being upset is a very reasonable reaction.  The fact is, SOE does a terrible job telling players how stuff should work so they can try to follow a path of their choosing to match it.  When they do say something, it rarely actually works that way.  And when it does work for a while, they change it. </p><p>Take wizards for example.  Wizards are supposed to be one of the top damage dealers - they have said this, plus it is obvious they don't have anything else to offer.  People play wizards for this reason.  There are at least 4 classes which out-damage wizards all the time, both in group and raid situations.  It has been well documented for months.  It's not difficult to figure out why this is, as many people smarter than me have explained in detail.  Instead of fixing them, they instead take away something from rangers, so we are worse off than before. </p><p>I still like my ranger, but if SOE keeps doing stuff like this I may just quit.  It's one thing to like or dislike a class - we all have our preferences - but it is unfair for SOE to change the rules from under us.  And I especially dislike the way everybody triviliazes the changes, when stuff like changing how procs work is a *big deal* to a class so dependent on them.</p>

[Nak]

if your gonna complain about not having a weapon proc off your bow quit now, it seriously isn't that big of a deal if you know what your doing extremely well. Soe didn't change the rules, they simply enforced the rules ( made me think too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] since when does soe enforce rules! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>)As for wizards dps, the problem isn't wizards dmg its the fact they don't have deaggro spells, or any of them from what i've heard of which is why they have to hold back so they don't peel and wipe raids (maybe soe should give wizzies a 50% aggro reduce buff or a mem blur spell that only wipes their aggro with a 1 min recast or something *hint hint*<div></div>

[xandez]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div><p>If you had invested hundreds of hours equipping your ranger a certain way because it worked the best, and suddenly somebody changed the rules, I think being upset is a very reasonable reaction. The fact is, SOE does a terrible job telling players how stuff should work so they can try to follow a path of their choosing to match it. When they do say something, it rarely actually works that way. And when it does work for a while, they change it.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">Yeah, thats called BALANCING <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><font color="#ff9900"></font><font color="#ff9900">(or the excuse is called that... haha)</font></p><p>Take wizards for example. Wizards are supposed to be one of the top damage dealers - they have said this, plus it is obvious they don't have anything else to offer. People play wizards for this reason.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">They do offer a lot more than just pure dmg which WE only do.</font></p><p>There are at least 4 classes which out-damage wizards all the time, both in group and raid situations. It has been well documented for months. It's not difficult to figure out why this is, as many people smarter than me have explained in detail. Instead of fixing them, they instead take away something from rangers, so we are worse off than before.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">Yep, thats what always happens...</font></p><p>I still like my ranger, but if SOE keeps doing stuff like this I may just quit. It's one thing to like or dislike a class - we all have our preferences - but it is unfair for SOE to change the rules from under us. And I especially dislike the way everybody triviliazes the changes, when stuff like changing how procs work is a *big deal* to a class so dependent on them.</p><font color="#ff9900">Its their game, we just pay rent to play it. If you dont like it, well... you dont have to pay the rent do ya? Anyway, i like my ranger too, always has, and this is just some MINOR thing we'll have to get used to. Poisons still proc out of the bow, which is the MAJOR thing to us imo.</font><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900">++Xan</font>

[Stigch]

<div></div><p>You know what I don't like? I don't like that everything that made eq2 new and innovative (class progression and the likes) is now gone from the game. What we have now is an extremely nice and shiny version of good ole eq1. From the roleplaying extravaganza to the hack and slash xping bonanza. Fine if that is your thing, but I'm not jumping with joy.</p><p>That being said. The game didn't change much. A few things were tweaked sure, but nothing major. If you are below 20 you might aswell start over, get the new starter content down. I did the mentor quests in Willowwood. It was no challenge at all at my level, but it was a very very nice hour to spend. If you're over twenty, nothing changed that you can't just adapt to. Couple of skills changed name or became something else entirely. There's more fire based stuff instead of direct melee stuff. Can't say I'm to partial to casting lightning bolts and such, but there ya go.</p><p>The problem starts with people squeezing there characters into a certain mold. You have to have this this and that and do such and such in this order to play your class right. Rubbish. You play it right when you enjoy playing. So the way we do things changed a bit. So what. The most valuable skill an eq2 player can develop is the art of adaptation. Break the mold, do things the way you think you should. Don't like the way poisons work now? Don't use those expensive posions. Make do with the cheap storebought ones (for now, they're bound to change the consumption rate because at this rate it's just impractical, you need a poison quiver).</p><p>If you feel you are nerfed in your dps, ask yourself what you were doing with that dps anyway. Were you perhaps taking on ^^^ mobs? You're not supposed to take on a dragon on your own you know. So now you can't diss it out the way you used to. Fortunately your friends just got a little extra so there's really no problem. That dragon will come down regardless. And if you solo, you really have nothing to complain. Ive never been stuck for a good fight solo. Skills or no, poisons or no, there's always a valley full of bears or dear to cull.</p>

[RedArcher]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div>I just had a thought. These changes are hitting everyone pretty hard, we're at each other's throats, etc. I've let the antagonism get to me, too. But what I realized is this: whining and going into a rage about the changes hurts nobody but yourself. You undermine your own good time by flipping out over everything. This is what culls the herd, IMO - not whether you're a 'true' ranger, or play the class for the 'right' reasons, but whether you can continue to enjoy it and keep your head on your shoulders in the face of adversity like this. This shouldn't be confused with pacifism, as those people can and will still agitate for change - but my bet is that they'll continue to play the game and have fun being rangers while doing so.</div><div> </div><div>The others will scream and rave and it won't change anything but their own experience. They'll log in and hate it; they can't wear the daddy pants anymore and thus they have no real reason to play. I guess the biggest thing that just struck me is that those who are so full of anger over this aren't really doing anyone any favors, they aren't really helping the cause, but they're not really hurting the rest of us, either. They're just hurting themselves. Yeah, the whining and melodrama gets old, but it'll go away eventually. It's tedious to hear people cry about being nerfed, but <em>you're only a "nerfed ranger" if you let yourself be.</em></div><div> </div><div>Personally, I haven't been nerfed. Sorry if you feel you have been. These changes weren't so significant as to cripple the class, but they may have crippled some of its players.</div><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ff0000">Regardless of the changes that are made to the game or how things are "nerfed" it all boils down to this is a GAME, its supposed to be fun. Everyone here pays a monthly fee for enjoyment of that game. If anyone is not happy then they can seek out SOE and let them know of their pain or leave the game for something else... but do it in a way not to disrupt those that are here to ENJOY the game. Jay42 CONSTANTLY puts a bright side to things and stands up for the profession he enjoys playing. Its too bad more people dont take the attitude he has. </font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Constructive criticism = good.</font><font color="#ff0000">Blatent [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and whining = 13 year old fit.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">Thanks Jay!</font></p>

[jarlaxle8]

<div></div><div>so i decided to pop in to the forums after LU19 and see if there are any 'nerf' screams around. and there really are! we've been nerfed? well heck, glad i checked it out here, else i wouldn't have known :smileytongue:</div><div> </div><div>ok, perhaps i'm a bit at the advantage of not having experienced Stream of Arrows yet :smileyvery-happy: but anyway, by what i have heard of it and what could be done with it + Thorny Trap i was always thinking 'will i get to experience it like that, or will it get nerfed before i hit 55'. so i expected it, and i bet deep down inside most (if not all) Rangers knew it would come.</div><div> </div><div>as for procs off mellee weapons... well, some lost dps; probably not a big deal. and it makes sense. and to be honest, if i havn't come here, i would have forgotten that it's really time now to hang the old PGT on the wall :smileyhappy: but i'll sure miss it... /sob *hugs his PGT one last time*</div><div> </div><div>---------------------------<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=383113204" target="_self">Ryilan Nightbreeze </a>---------------------------</div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div><font color="#ff9900">"They do offer a lot more than just pure dmg which WE only do."</font></div><p><font color="#cc0033">Wizards/Warlocks offer no more to a group than Rangers do outside of damage.  Even if they do, they're meant to do damage, not to be your buffbots.  Sorcerers are supposed to be above everyone else damage wise and I support any means SOE takes to make this true.</font></p><div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div>I disagree with Jay 10000%.  Passive go lucky posting when we take it in the shorts are probably the reason this happened to begin with.  The devs are tired of hearing mages complain...  vast majority of ranger remind me of flanders from the simpsons.  Path of least resistance.  Nerf flanders so homer will shut up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Teksun]

<span><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div>I disagree with Jay 10000%.  Passive go lucky posting when we take it in the shorts are probably the reason this happened to begin with.  The devs are tired of hearing mages complain...  vast majority of ranger remind me of flanders from the simpsons.  Path of least resistance.  Nerf flanders so homer will shut up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>/LOLthis is funny on just SO many levels I wouldn't know where to begin...I have noticed almost NO changes in my playability. Maybe I'm just not as l33t as some of ya'll out there. I just love it when we only here from 90% of these people when there has been a change and they log in to complain.</span><div></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div><font color="#cc0033">Wizards/Warlocks offer no more to a group than Rangers do outside of damage.</font><hr></div></blockquote><p>i take a quick glance at the wizard/warlock spell lists and in 10 levels i can count the terms 'group' or 'ally' more then in 60 levels of ranger spells. well, no surprise, there are NO such spells which are specific for ranger. just evac and pathfinding, which are scout spells. so i wonder: how do you guys come up with such statements?</p><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div><font color="#cc0033">Even if they do, they're meant to do damage, not to be your buffbots.  Sorcerers are supposed to be above everyone else damage wise and I support any means SOE takes to make this true.</font><hr></div></blockquote><p>not happy with your class? well, surprise, SOE doesn't care about what you think is 'supposed' to be.</p><p>why are you here anyway? just trolling a bit around and enjoying the outrage of rangers to the changes or what? well, guess what, we've been nerfed a bit but we will adapt and overcome as always and we will still kick butt. and i don't think the nerf happened because you guys like to scream 'nerf rangers' on your boards.</p><p>---------------------------<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=383113204" target="_self">Ryilan Nightbreeze </a>---------------------------</p>

[Keredh]

<div></div><p>Like Jay and Teksun, I can't say I feel I have been nerfed. So I am in Legendary and not Fabled and I'm not one for soloing Roost or anything else. Do I like rangers? Yep. Played them on tabletop, in EQ1 and in EQ2. Do I like the changes? I can't say I am a fan of all of them... But I don't feel nerfed.</p><p>I still have no trouble finding a group and I still get invited to raid (I'm in family guild, not a hardcore raider, so perhaps that's why I don't notice the difference?).</p><p>Do I enjoy my character? Plenty still - and as long as that is the case I will keep playing him.</p><p>Ker</p>

[illum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Naku9 wrote:As for wizards dps, the problem isn't wizards dmg its the fact they don't have deaggro spells, or any of them from what i've heard of which is why they have to hold back so they don't peel and wipe raids (maybe soe should give wizzies a 50% aggro reduce buff or a mem blur spell that only wipes their aggro with a 1 min recast or something *hint hint*<div></div><hr></blockquote>They have the one deaggro spell, and several buffs that they can put on the tank to increase someone <em>elses </em>aggro...probably is most wizards forget to spam the ice shield every 5 seconds because they're too busy trying to max out their dps to soothe some inner conflict they're having :smileyvery-happy:

[illum]

<div></div><p>If you're not out dps'ing a ranger in longer fights (or shorter fights if you're a warlock and fighting group mobs), you need to learn how to play your class, and yes, wizards do have more to offer to a group than rangers.  They have group buffs, they have a buff that increases aggro to the MT if maintained, and they have some crowd control.</p><p>what do rangers have to offer the group?</p><ul><li>evac</li><ul><li>wizard has this (not sure about warlock)</li></ul><li>dps</li><ul><li>sorcerers have this (if you know what you're doing, you dish out more than a ranger)</li></ul></ul><p>so a wizard has everything a ranger has plus more...if you dont like buffing and utilizing all your other spells to be on top of the heap, that's your issue, not rangers, so stop crying wolf.</p>

[brandi7920]

<div></div><p>All of this crying and whining about nerfs and whatnot makes me really uninterested in browsing the Ranger forums. I thought I'd poke my head in and see if things had calmed down...guess not.</p><p>Guess I'll give it a bit longer. the game is meant for fun, and I don't know about you guys..but b*tching isn't fun.</p><p>See ya.</p>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div>I disagree with Jay 10000%.  Passive go lucky posting when we take it in the shorts are probably the reason this happened to begin with.  The devs are tired of hearing mages complain...  vast majority of ranger remind me of flanders from the simpsons.  Path of least resistance.  Nerf flanders so homer will shut up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>His point was:1) That you can scream like a banshee like the mages did or you can post constructive criticism.2) Your Ranger is still playable. But even if you feel that he/she isn't, you can go back and /feedback or complain. In either case, the choice you have is not to control the actions of the devs, but your own attitude.Disagreement is fine. Constructive criticism is fine. But there have been some posters here who have virtually self destructed over some things that don't ruin our gameplay experience. My point for them has been to encourage thinking before posting. My first reaction to the changes to SoA (main example) was irritation. That went away after about 15 minutes of questing when I quite honestly forgot about it. I was enjoying the quest.Not that Jay needs defending. But if you look at his post history he is ANYTHING but the "happy go lucky" poster. Some of the other boards are basically unreadable, not because of legitimate complaints but because of the "SOE is the DEVIL!" posts.That was his point.</span></div>

[illum]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<span>I have noticed almost NO changes in my playability. Maybe I'm just not as l33t as some of ya'll out there. I just love it when we only here from 90% of these people when there has been a change and they log in to complain.</span><hr></blockquote><p>It's not about playability...if that's what you're thinking, you are on the wrong track.  It's the fact that RANGERS continue to get smacked down (because most rangers know how to play their class...let's face it, it's a simple class), instead of the devs FIXING the other class's issues to shut the holes of the actual source of the problems.  A simple fix that the devs TOTALLY missed would have been to reduce the timer (both casting and recovery) by 30%-40%...sheesh, give them a 70% reduction, I could care less...but THAT is the fix that should have been put in (though sorcerers already do way more dps than they realized...the problem is they want to be rangers and dish out all their damage in one load instead of the way the class was designed to be used).</p><p> </p><p>and if you consider this whining, think about what you would do if there was a kid who continued to kick you in the nuts no matter where you went...legally you cant smack the kid, what are you going to do?</p><ol><li>curl on the ground and keep taking a beating to your nuts</li><li>voice your complaint loud enough in the hopes the beating stops</li></ol><p>hopefully this will clarify your understanding.:smileyhappy:</p><p> </p><p>grammar fixes...will probably need more :smileytongue:</p><p>Message Edited by illumin on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:44 AM</span></p>

[Saihung23]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<div></div>I disagree with Jay 10000%.  Passive go lucky posting when we take it in the shorts are probably the reason this happened to begin with.  The devs are tired of hearing mages complain...  vast majority of ranger remind me of flanders from the simpsons.  Path of least resistance.  Nerf flanders so homer will shut up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>/LOLthis is funny on just SO many levels I wouldn't know where to begin...I have noticed almost NO changes in my playability. Maybe I'm just not as l33t as some of ya'll out there. I just love it when we only here from 90% of these people when there has been a change and they log in to complain.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>He made a Simpsons analogy....while that may win some boobtoobers respect (I love the simpsons heh) it is a pretty poor analogy.</p><p>I for one am not telling you to roll over and be good, I am telling you to not plaster our forums with threads entitled Dark Days or any of the other doom and gloom posts you folks write.  Mainly I want this because the inane babbling that folks tend toward in those posts.   It is never I think we could have fixed it this way, here is an alternate solution to what is happening....those folks tend to never give ideas of how to improve our class. </p><p>Why anyone would want the fighting and flaming of other forums is beyond me...how many threads detailing how the sky is falling in on our characters. </p><p>You dont have to be sheep but at the same time you dont have to be a lion...I am asking that you be a person, and adult in some ways...regarding our class.  Notice I dont say MY class....it is all of ours, when doomsday threads permeate a class forum it becomes less and less friendly.  If you havent seen that in the other threads I suggest going to the coercer threads, or the Wizard threads...</p><p>I for one am going to be here longer than some of the folks who want to <quote> Fight <unquote> for changes.  I would like some sort of peace here after some of the l33t players leave.  Like Teksun I would rather be nerfed to oblivion than have that sort of community...nerf me back to EQ1 if you must, but I will still be a Ranger in this game and I will still try to be the best I can in the game and in the forums.</p><p>I dont feel this change has hindered my abilities.</p><p>Peace Health and Happiness</p><p>Saihung Talechaser</p>

[Saihung23]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>illumin wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<span>I have noticed almost NO changes in my playability. Maybe I'm just not as l33t as some of ya'll out there. I just love it when we only here from 90% of these people when there has been a change and they log in to complain.</span><hr></blockquote><p>It's not about playability...if that's what you're thinking, you are on the wrong track.  It's the fact that RANGERS continue to get smacked down (because most rangers know how to play their class...let's face it, it's a simple class), instead of the devs FIXING the other class's issues to shut the holes of the actual source of the problems.  A simple fix that the devs TOTALLY missed would have been to reduce the timer (both casting and recovery) by 30%-40%...sheesh, give them a 70% reduction, I could care less...but THAT is the fix that should have been put in (though sorcerers already do way more dps than they realized...the problem is they want to be rangers and dish out all their damage in one load instead of the way the class was designed to be used).</p><p> </p><p><font color="#ff0066">and if you consider this whining, think about what you would do if there was a kid who continued to kick you in the nuts no matter where you went...legally you cant smack the kid, what are you going to do?</font></p><ol><li><font color="#ff0066">curl on the ground and keep taking a beating to your nuts</font></li><li><font color="#ff0066">voice your complaint loud enough in the hopes the beating stops</font></li></ol><p><font color="#ff0066">hopefully this will clarify your understanding.:smileyhappy:</font></p><p> </p><p>grammar fixes...will probably need more :smileytongue:</p><p>Message Edited by illumin on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:44 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I would beat the hell out of the kid....I dont care who is the parent or what is legal.  Bad analogy.  If you are just going to do this</p><p>Subject:  SOE UNFAIR TO RANGERS</p><p>Body:     I HAVE HAD IT, RANGERS GET NO LOVE FROM THE DEV'S!!!   YOU KEEP NERFING US TO BALANCE THE CLASSES!! WHY!! DEV'S FAVOR WIZARDS!! IT MUST BE BECAUSE THEY ARE WHINY PUNKS!  THATS HOW WE DO IT RANGERS LETS WHINE AND RANT AND RAVE UNTIL THE DEVS THINK WE ARE AS BIG A BABY AS THE OTHER CLASSES!! THEN THEY WILL MAKE US BETTER THAN EVERYONE! LETS FLAME AND ATTACK OUR OWN UNTIL THEY BOW DOWN TO OUR WAY OF FORUM LIFE!!!  FLAMES AND TROLLS FOR EVERYONE!!!</p><p>If that is what you see as encouraging Dev's to fix our class I say leave.  Go post that inane garbage in the combat forums.</p><p>Why should I put up with your loud and abrasive manners if it wasnt loud and abrasive manners that got us where we are today?</p><p>Ranting is the first sign of an inferior mind...unable to accept the existence of differing opinions the inferior intellect goes on rants and raves hoping to drown out opposing opinions.</p><p>Oh, and if you think that rangers are <quote> simple to play <unquote>...why is it that more people have trouble playing a Ranger solo than any other non healing class.  Rangers are easy only after becoming acquainted with how to play one.  A person playing a level 50 wizard (who never played a ranger) would have a much harder time playing a 50 level ranger with no experience then say vice versus.</p><p>Rangers have a method to them unlike most other classes.</p><p>Sai</p><p> </p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div></div><div>"<font color="#ff00ff">not happy with your class? well, surprise, SOE doesn't care about what you think is 'supposed' to be</font>."</div><div> </div><div>"Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from <font color="#cc3333">highest amount of damage output to the lowest.</font><p>First group:<font color="#cc3366"><font color="#cc3333">Wizard/Warlock</font> </font><font color="#ff00ff">Assassin/Ranger</font></p><p>Second group:Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet)Brigand/Swashbuckler</p><p>Third group:Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet)Troubador/DirgeBruiser/Monk</p><p>Fourth group:Berserker/ShadowknightPaladin/Guardian</p><p>Fifth group:Fury/WardenDefiler/MysticInquisitor/Templar"</p><p><font color="#cc3333">They cared enough to put us at the top in theory.  Problem is they overpowered certain classes(Summoners and Rangers)</font></p><p>"Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another. If wizards and warlocks are not achieving that level of damage output now (and we agree there are cases that they are not), we will be adjusting class balance accordingly. In some situations this means other classes will be reduced in the amount of damage they do, while in other cases wizard and warlock damage may be upgraded. There is no one simple fix that will properly balance all classes, but rather it is an intricate system of weights and measures that takes time to adjust."</p><p><font color="#cc3333">Again, looks like they agree with me.</font></p><p><font color="#cc3333">And why am I here?  Because I'm tired of people trying to spew worthless excuses like buffs, which aren't even that great/the purpose of the class, to justify the sad state the Sorcerer class is in.  In the case of Warlocks you actually have MORE utility to contribute to a group/raid. I'm pretty sure there are not only going to be more "nerfs", but possibly some actual fixes for the mage classes as a whole(Summoners will get a different kind of fix though).  Sorcerers are going to be at the top of the damge tree where they belong, whether it is with nerfs, fixes, or a more likely combination of both.</font></p><p>" take a quick glance at the wizard/warlock spell lists and in 10 levels i can count the terms 'group' or 'ally' more then in 60 levels of ranger spells. well, no surprise, there are NO such spells which are specific for ranger. just evac and pathfinding, which are scout spells. so i wonder: how do you guys come up with such statements?"</p><p><font color="#cc3333"></font></p><font color="#cc3333"><p><strong><u>Ranger Utility = 16 Total</u></strong></p><p>Shroud of the Forest</p><p>Pathfinding</p><p>Safe Fall</p><p>Evac</p><p>Snaring Shot</p><p>Culling the Weak</p><p>Primal Agility</p><p>Thorny Trap</p><p>Confusion Arrow</p><p>Foresters Noose</p><p>Snipe</p><p>Debilitating Arrow</p><p>Stun Poison</p><p>Debuff Poison</p><p>Cheap Shot</p><p>Improved Surveil</p><p> </p><p><strong><u>Wizard Utility = 16 Total</u></strong></p><p>Incapacitate</p><p>Vitalic Reaping</p><p>Vital Flood</p><p>Artic Icicles</p><p>Ring of Ice</p><p>Fist of the Tyrant</p><p>Nimbus Aura</p><p>Blazing Grandeur</p><p>Numbing Cold</p><p>Lapse</p><p>Frostshield</p><p>Icebound Gift</p><p>Augmentation</p><p>Concussive</p><p>Evac</p><p>Firy Convulsions</p><p> </p><p>Ok now for raid Utility</p><p> </p><p><strong><u>Ranger Raid Utility = 8 Total</u></strong></p><p>Improved Surveil</p><p>Primal Agility</p><p>Confusion Arrow</p><p>Foresters Noose</p><p>Snipe</p><p>Debilitating Arrow</p><p>Debuff Poison</p><p>Shroud of the Forest</p><p> </p><p><strong><u>Wizard Raid Utility = 8 Total</u></strong></p><p>Aritic Icicles</p><p>Fist of the Tyrant</p><p>Blazing Grandeur</p><p>Icebound Gift</p><p>Augmentation</p><p>Singularity</p><p>Vitalic Reaping</p><p>Frostshield</p></font><p><font color="#cc3333"><u>Warlocks</u> have some of the wizards utility(minus evac, some power gains/transfers, and useful buffs) with an emphasis on stuns and procs, their utility is also broken and unreliable in some cases.  Over all they have the least utility of the three.</font></p><p><font color="#cc3333">Some of the Sorcerer "utility" spells don't even work, keep that in mind.</font></p><p><font color="#cc3333"></font> </p></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:39 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:44 AM</span></p>

[Mentla]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div> </div><div>Personally, I haven't been nerfed. Sorry if you feel you have been. These changes weren't so significant as to cripple the class, but they may have crippled some of its players.</div><hr></blockquote>How do you spend most of your online time?  Grouped or Raiding?  Just curious.  Mostly been grouped since the change clearing some older stuff in TCT and such.  Really noticing the loss of power from my PGT.  I still have way more power left than the swashy and monk in the group after a good scrap, but nowhere near as much as I used to.  Using whole bottles of poisen in minutes is hitting hard though as we not only have no alchys in guild but none who will make me poisens on whole of server!As to LU19 there is a post running on one of the gameplay board (iirc) about how good it is.  A lot of people really loving this upate.  Must say I've been on a few griffs since update, but haven't been on one when it lands yet  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Anyone got any love for latest LU?</span><div></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"Rangers have a method to them unlike most other classes"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc3333">They play like a Scout just like Guardians play like a Tank, Wizards play like a mage, and Templars play like a priest.</font></div>

[Mentla]

Darn, responded to Jay's post before I read the rest of the thread.  I've had it with Ranger forums for now.  I haven't seen this much rudeness and lack of support on here in the several months since I found these boards.  "I don't feel I've been nerfed so screw you"?  What on earth is wrong with you people?!  Used to be one could pop into the Ranger forum for some help advice / give help advice and have some general chats.  Was nice, was even a world ranger channel with said nice people on it.I guess good things never last.<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>He made a Simpsons analogy....while that may win some boobtoobers respect (I love the simpsons heh) it is a pretty poor analogy.</p><p>I for one am not telling you to roll over and be good, I am telling you to not plaster our forums with threads entitled Dark Days or any of the other doom and gloom posts you folks write.  Mainly I want this because the inane babbling that folks tend toward in those posts.   It is never I think we could have fixed it this way, here is an alternate solution to what is happening....those folks tend to never give ideas of how to improve our class. </p><p>Why anyone would want the fighting and flaming of other forums is beyond me...how many threads detailing how the sky is falling in on our characters. </p><p>You dont have to be sheep but at the same time you dont have to be a lion...I am asking that you be a person, and adult in some ways...regarding our class.  Notice I dont say MY class....it is all of ours, when doomsday threads permeate a class forum it becomes less and less friendly.  If you havent seen that in the other threads I suggest going to the coercer threads, or the Wizard threads...</p><p>I for one am going to be here longer than some of the folks who want to Fight for changes.  I would like some sort of peace here after some of the l33t players leave.  Like Teksun I would rather be nerfed to oblivion than have that sort of community...nerf me back to EQ1 if you must, but I will still be a Ranger in this game and I will still try to be the best I can in the game and in the forums.</p><p>I dont feel this change has hindered my abilities.</p><p>Peace Health and Happiness</p><p>Saihung Talechaser</p><p></p><p></p><hr><p>The Simpsons Anolgy may not be as far off as you think...  Note that anolgy was not aimed at jay direclty.  Infact it was aimed at the "Adapt and Overcome" click of posters that feel since they played thier ranger prior to LU 13 that they have walked to school uphill both ways barefoot... blah blah blah. </p><p>I am not a uber ranger by anymeans, I do roleplay to a certain extent.  I do not think holding judgement on players that do/don't roleplay.  To the roleplayer that has been playing a ranger since tolkien finished writing his books, Folks that play a ranger because "they rock" is a sin.   There are far more players that play EQ for action than those that play to roleplay.</p><p>I speak up when things effect myself, as do others.  I may not post to chit chat, but do find information reguarding the class invaluable.  With all the new rangers that came... We are large group of players that do have a voice.  Wether you agree or disagree to not give your opinion is far worse than not.</p><p> </p><p></p></blockquote>

[illum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Saihung23 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>illumin wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<span>I have noticed almost NO changes in my playability. Maybe I'm just not as l33t as some of ya'll out there. I just love it when we only here from 90% of these people when there has been a change and they log in to complain.</span><hr></blockquote><p>It's not about playability...if that's what you're thinking, you are on the wrong track.  It's the fact that RANGERS continue to get smacked down (because most rangers know how to play their class...let's face it, it's a simple class), instead of the devs FIXING the other class's issues to shut the holes of the actual source of the problems.  A simple fix that the devs TOTALLY missed would have been to reduce the timer (both casting and recovery) by 30%-40%...sheesh, give them a 70% reduction, I could care less...but THAT is the fix that should have been put in (though sorcerers already do way more dps than they realized...the problem is they want to be rangers and dish out all their damage in one load instead of the way the class was designed to be used).</p><p> </p><p><font color="#ff0066">and if you consider this whining, think about what you would do if there was a kid who continued to kick you in the nuts no matter where you went...legally you cant smack the kid, what are you going to do?</font></p><ol><li><font color="#ff0066">curl on the ground and keep taking a beating to your nuts</font></li><li><font color="#ff0066">voice your complaint loud enough in the hopes the beating stops</font></li></ol><p><font color="#ff0066">hopefully this will clarify your understanding.:smileyhappy:</font></p><p> </p><p>grammar fixes...will probably need more :smileytongue:</p><p>Message Edited by illumin on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:44 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>I would beat the hell out of the kid....I dont care who is the parent or what is legal.  Bad analogy.  If you are just going to do this</p><p>Subject:  SOE UNFAIR TO RANGERS</p><p>Body:     I HAVE HAD IT, RANGERS GET NO LOVE FROM THE DEV'S!!!   YOU KEEP NERFING US TO BALANCE THE CLASSES!! WHY!! DEV'S FAVOR WIZARDS!! IT MUST BE BECAUSE THEY ARE WHINY PUNKS!  THATS HOW WE DO IT RANGERS LETS WHINE AND RANT AND RAVE UNTIL THE DEVS THINK WE ARE AS BIG A BABY AS THE OTHER CLASSES!! THEN THEY WILL MAKE US BETTER THAN EVERYONE! LETS FLAME AND ATTACK OUR OWN UNTIL THEY BOW DOWN TO OUR WAY OF FORUM LIFE!!!  FLAMES AND TROLLS FOR EVERYONE!!!</p><p>If that is what you see as encouraging Dev's to fix our class I say leave.  Go post that inane garbage in the combat forums.</p><p>Why should I put up with your loud and abrasive manners if it wasnt loud and abrasive manners that got us where we are today?</p><p>Ranting is the first sign of an inferior mind...unable to accept the existence of differing opinions the inferior intellect goes on rants and raves hoping to drown out opposing opinions.</p><p>Oh, and if you think that rangers are simple to play ...why is it that more people have trouble playing a Ranger solo than any other non healing class.  Rangers are easy only after becoming acquainted with how to play one.  A person playing a level 50 wizard (who never played a ranger) would have a much harder time playing a 50 level ranger with no experience then say vice versus.</p><p>Rangers have a method to them unlike most other classes.</p><p>Sai</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>sounds like you're ranting about my opinions.  I post up my opinions, yes I'm loud, but unfortunately, that's the only way to get a dev's attention nowadays.  while I put smilies onto my post and try to keep arguements general AND on topic, you attack me personally.  That being said, my rebuttal.</p><p> </p><p>Rangers NOT simple?</p><ol><li>apply poison, debuffs</li><li>use CA's (set up thorny trap if soloing)</li><li>use aggro managment (unless soloing, in which case you can skip this step)</li><li>rinse repeat.</li></ol><p>Mages</p><ol><li>when soloing, similar</li><ol><li>buffs (including proc'ing buffs)</li><li>root</li><li>dd till root breaks</li><li>stun / root</li><li>move, repeat</li></ol><li>when grouping</li><ol><li>buffs group</li><li>proc'ing buffs on MT to help them keep aggro (need to watch and keep applying)</li><li>secondary (sometimes primary...in bad situations) crowd control</li><li>DD / DoT's</li><li>use aggro management</li></ol></ol><p>On top of all that, they HAVE to keep an eye on power...as a ranger I've rarely had issues...so yes, rangers are simple in comparison.  I'm not sure about other classes, but out of the ones I play (ranger, wizard, zerker, guardian, monk), the ranger is by far the simplest....it's very possible I find it simple because of my mindset, but I dont have to pay attention to as many details when I'm playing my ranger.</p><p> </p><p>If you still think rangers are not simple to play, then that's cool...maybe they are complex and I'm just one with my ranger and that's why i think they're simple...but once again that's my opinion.  If you feel the need to criticize this, please do...try to keep on topic because once again, attacking me personally really doesn't make much of a point...debunk my points, not me :smileywink:</p>

[DeusMachina]

<div><font color="#cc3333"> </font><p><strong><u><font color="#99ccff">Ranger Utility = 16 Total</font></u></strong></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Shroud of the Forest</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Pathfinding</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Safe Fall</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Evac</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Snaring Shot</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Culling the Weak</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Primal Agility</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Thorny Trap</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Confusion Arrow</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Foresters Noose</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Snipe</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Debilitating Arrow</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Stun Poison</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Debuff Poison</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Cheap Shot</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Improved Surveil</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff"></font> </p><p><strong><u><font color="#99ccff">Wizard Utility = 16 Total</font></u></strong></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Incapacitate</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Vitalic Reaping</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Vital Flood</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Artic Icicles</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Ring of Ice</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Fist of the Tyrant</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Nimbus Aura</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Blazing Grandeur</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Numbing Cold</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Lapse</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Frostshield</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Icebound Gift</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Augmentation</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Concussive</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Evac</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Firy Convulsions</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff"></font> </p><p><font color="#99ccff">Ok now for raid Utility</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff"></font> </p><p><strong><u><font color="#99ccff">Ranger Raid Utility = 8 Total</font></u></strong></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Improved Surveil</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Primal Agility</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Confusion Arrow</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Foresters Noose</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Snipe</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Debilitating Arrow</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Debuff Poison</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Shroud of the Forest</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff"></font> </p><p><strong><u><font color="#99ccff">Wizard Raid Utility = 8 Total</font></u></strong></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Aritic Icicles</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Fist of the Tyrant</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Blazing Grandeur</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Icebound Gift</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Augmentation</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Singularity</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Vitalic Reaping</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff">Frostshield</font></p><p><font color="#99ccff"></font> </p><p>Wow, this guy has it all figured out. I wonder if he is available for parties.</p></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div><p>"Wow, this guy has it all figured out. I wonder if he is available for parties."</p><p><font color="#cc0033">You're better of with a Ranger for parties, Sorcerers are just supposed to stand around apparently.</font></p></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:21 AM</span></p>

[Grign]

<div></div>[Removed for Content], i think he is referring to your Ranger Raid Utility List... OMG lol priceless...  it's a good thing that I read this thread so that I can now start using all of my "Raid Buffs and Enhancements" that I wasn't using before.  Silly old me just thought they were self buffs and aggro losers...  I guess the AC debuffs could be counted as a utility spell as could wounding arrow, as for the rest, lol well, I can't exactly remember the last time I was able to cast any of those spells you listed on someone else, which I think was what was being referred to as group/raid utility spells.  Self buffs don't typically tend to fall into that category.

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"[Removed for Content], i think he is referring to your Ranger Raid Utility List... OMG lol priceless...  it's a good thing that I read this thread so that I can now start using all of my "Raid Buffs and Enhancements" that I wasn't using before.  Silly old me just thought they were self buffs and aggro losers...  I guess the AC debuffs could be counted as a utility spell as could wounding arrow, as for the rest, lol well, I can't exactly remember the last time I was able to cast any of those spells you listed on someone else, which I think was what was being referred to as group/raid utility spells.  Self buffs don't typically tend to fall into that category. "</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Utility is utility.  I put everything I could on the list for both classes.  Some of the things listed under Wizards are completely broken and disfunctional.</font></div>

[illum]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Utility is utility.  I put everything I could on the list for both classes.  Some of the things listed under Wizards are completely broken and disfunctional.</font></div><hr></blockquote><p>Now that's something I can agree with...wizard spells are broken...roots :smileysad: the timer should be reduced...ice spells gimped in lots of raids...and from the look of it, being slowly removed *sigh*</p><p>love...not nerfs...that's all I ask</p>

[Jayad]

<div></div><div>Well, I have always tried to be constructive.  Whether other people are or not, I can't control. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>I have a T6 wizard in addition to a ranger, so I know both classes pretty well.  I am not a ranger who was outfitted to do melee procs on the bow and thus was really hurt by the change, but they are out there.  Many high end rangers put a lot of resources into that configuration which is now useless.  Will they adjust?  Sure, but it still sucks for them and coming months later I think it was unfair when there was no real need to make the change.</div><div> </div><div>I posted in another thread about how Stream is broken and why.  Is it being constructive?  I think so.  Will SOE care?  I doubt it.  But I think there's a better chance of them looking at something if people speak up, and not just act like a change which affected our class in a negative way is fine.  We can certainly do it in a respectful manner, though.</div><div> </div>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Utility is utility.  I put everything I could on the list for both classes.  Some of the things listed under Wizards are completely broken and disfunctional.</font></div><hr></blockquote><strong>u·til·i·ty</strong>  <i>n.</i> <i>pl.</i> <b>u·til·i·ties </b><ol><li>The quality or condition of being useful; usefulness.</li><li>A useful article or device.</li></ol><ol>I also couldn't help notice that you listed poisons as a Ranger specific utility.  A poison is a utility much the same way an axe or a breast plate is an utility.  FYI, you are posting on a Ranger forum.  Sell your list of so called Ranger "utilities" to some other class.  The people here know better.</ol><p>Message Edited by Gareorn on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:29 PM</span></p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"Now that's something I can agree with...wizard spells are broken...roots <img border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" height="16" width="16">the timer should be reduced...ice spells gimped in lots of raids...and from the look of it, being slowly removed *sigh*<p>love...not nerfs...that's all I ask"</p><p><font color="#cc0033">Whatever it take for both Sorcerer classes to be fixed.  SOE isn't known for its subtlety sadly.</font></p></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div><strong>"u·til·i·ty</strong>  <i>n.</i> <i>pl.</i> <b>u·til·i·ties </b><ol><li>The quality or condition of being useful; usefulness.</li><li>A useful article or device.</li></ol><ol>I also couldn't help notice that you listed poisons as a Ranger specific utility.  A poison is a utility much the same way an axe or a breast plate is an utility.  FYI, you are posting on a Ranger forum.  Sell your list of so called Ranger "utilities" to some other class.  The people here know better."</ol><ol><font color="#cc0033">The abilities <em>are</em> useful.  Poisons can provide utlity such as stuns.  The abilities I listed <em>are</em> utilities, Rangers <em>do</em> have abilities with functions other than damage.  I'll voice my argument so long as there is something I do not agree with. I do not agree with Sorcerers being cheated out of their role because someone refuses to let go of something they shouldn't have had in the first place.</font></ol></div>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><p>Like I said...  Sell to someone else.  Here, we know better.</p><p> </p><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div><ol><font color="#cc0033">Sorcerers being cheated out of their role...</font></ol></div><hr></blockquote><p>Bla, bla, bla...  This isn't a Sorcerer forum.</p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div><strong>"u·til·i·ty</strong>  <i>n.</i> <i>pl.</i> <b>u·til·i·ties </b><ol><li>The quality or condition of being useful; usefulness.</li><li>A useful article or device.</li></ol><ol>I also couldn't help notice that you listed poisons as a Ranger specific utility.  A poison is a utility much the same way an axe or a breast plate is an utility.  FYI, you are posting on a Ranger forum.  Sell your list of so called Ranger "utilities" to some other class.  The people here know better."</ol><ol><font color="#cc0033">The abilities <em>are</em> useful.  Poisons can provide utlity such as stuns.  The abilities I listed <em>are</em> utilities, Rangers <em>do</em> have abilities with functions other than damage.  I'll voice my argument so long as there is something I do not agree with. I do not agree with Sorcerers being cheated out of their role because someone refuses to let go of something they shouldn't have had in the first place.</font></ol></div><hr></blockquote><p>In my opinion poisons are Utility as they can benifit other members in the group relating to thier damageout put or success of landing spell.  I.E.  Debuff poisons.</p><p>I also feel that poisons that are considered good utility are hard to come by and cost dinero.  While other classes enjoy free inate utility.</p><p>I look at ranger utility as having a Leatherman multi tool.  Sure it has a screw driver on it, but do you really want to unscrew a big job with it?</p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"Bla, bla, bla...  This isn't a Sorcerer forum."</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">And Rangers aren't supposed to be #1 undisputed damage.  There are alot of things wrong aren't there?</font></div>

[EverMan]

<div></div><p>Don't feed the troll he will never go away.</p><p>Track  BtilTheMage post record for a laugh.</p><p> </p>

[Gareorn]

<div>ROFLMAO!</div><div> </div><div>That's some funny stuff.</div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div><p>"Don't feed the troll he will never go away.</p><p>Track  BtilTheMage post record for a laugh."</p><p><font color="#cc3333">Yep; starts at right about the same time Rangers started whining about the "nerf"</font></p><p> </p></div>

[Saihung23]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>EverMania wrote:<div></div><p>Don't feed the troll he will never go away.</p><p>Track  BtilTheMage post record for a laugh.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>So he just started posting...so what?  So all of his posts are on this one subject, sorcerers being broken, so what?  So he could not possibly understand what a forum community is by only posting in the gameplay discussion and another classes forum?  So what if the only post other than that was spells combat arts and abilities...</p><p>BtilTheMage  I reiterate, if you had posted as much as you have on our forum in the wizard forum you might actually be fixed by now.  But you dont know where that forum is apparently so let me help you out...when you went into class discussion you scrolled to far down friend.   It is understandably hard to find, it is between the fighters arena and the priests sanctum.</p><p>I will say one thing though bro, you get your point across pretty darn quickly lol.  No wasted words with you. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div><p>"So he just started posting...so what?  So all of his posts are on this one subject, sorcerers being broken, so what?  So he could not possibly understand what a forum community is by only posting in the gameplay discussion and another classes forum?  So what if the only post other than that was spells combat arts and abilities...</p><p>BtilTheMage  I reiterate, if you had posted as much as you have on our forum in the wizard forum you might actually be fixed by now.  But you dont know where that forum is apparently so let me help you out...when you went into class discussion you scrolled to far down friend.   It is understandably hard to find, it is between the fighters arena and the priests sanctum.</p><p>I will say one thing though bro, you get your point across pretty darn quickly lol.  No wasted words with you. <img border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" height="16" width="16">"</p><p><font color="#cc0033">The Sorcerer forums are dead, both to SOE and in terms of post numbers.  This is a very active forum and Rangers <em>are</em> related to the problem.  I'll try to be less responsive if you'd like though.  Besides, someone needs to provide a counter-argument :smileyhappy:</font></p></div>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><font color="#cc0033">Besides, someone needs to provide a counter-argument </font><img border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" height="16" width="16"></div><div> </div></blockquote></blockquote><div>Btil, it ceases to be a counter arguement when you go into someone else's house and insist that they are overpowered.  We see the situation differently, so therefore we must agree to disagree.  What I have seen from these ranger forum invasions is generaly: <strong>You rangers have something I want, so I want the developers to take it away from you and give it to me.</strong> </div><div>Is it any wonder that we would become defensive?  MMO damage socialism is what you are expounding.</div><div>I recommend that you take your well versed arguements and solutions and post them in the sorcerers forums or general combat forums.  this is not the time or place for them. </div><div>And no matter what, the mages and rangers got screwed less the the Seahawks</div><div> </div>

[TalenMorg]

As a lvl 60 Ranger I Don't think weapons should have ever procced of our bows...but I enjoyed it while it lasted. As for stream that was a total nerf intended to appease the dress wearers in game.I am a soloer been one since level one ( only grouped a few times throughout game play and that was to help others with quests )I'm not uber but I am well outfitted and know my class well and payed dearly for master 1 of stream which is now completely useless to me as a soloer. As the rest of the community I will adapt and find new strategies but it ticks me off that I pay the same amount of money as anyone else that plays this game and I am continually being nerfed out of content.I shouldn't be able to solo epic X4 or serious raid instances but I should still be able to enjoy places like the roost solo...I earned it. The roost isn't an easy solo exp with stream it takes skill and strategy and that made it fun....also had the opportunity for some decent loot like the necklace and cuffs ( even though they never dropped for me ).As for the so called utilitys posted earlier by some dress wearing mage class....get a clue...you are no ranger and obviously not much of a finger wagler either.<div></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div><strong>"You rangers have something I want, so I want the developers to take it away from you and give it to me.</strong> "</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">You were never supposed to be outdamaging everyone to begin with is the thing.  You were intentionally placed below the Sorcerer classes.  A more accurate analogy is you stole the package I ordered off of my front porch and I'd like it back.  Sorcerers are supposed to outdamage Rangers.  I want to be the man to go to for damage like I was supposed to be all along, not a buffbot with mediocre damage.  Besides, it's not only Rangers that are causing problems.  Many other classes are outdamaging Sorcerers when they clearly shouldn't be.  The Ranger class is just the most obvious example.</font></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"As for the so called utilitys posted earlier by some dress wearing mage class....get a clue...you are no ranger and obviously not much of a finger wagler either."</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Yeah, I know.  Sorcerers aren't doing what they are supposed to right now, so we really aren't much of a "finger wagler".</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033">We're supposed to be top damage and I have hope that we will eventually be back where SOE intended us to be.</font></div>

[TalenMorg]

<div><span>We don't outdamage everyone to begin with  and secondly sorcerers won't outdamge in every instance just as we won't outdamge other classes in every instance. We weren't intentionally placed below the sorceror class...as I see it we were put in the same tier of damage....By the way exactly how much money a week goes towards your damage output? I can tell you as a lvl 60 ranger I spend anywhere between 2-4 platinum a week on poisons depending on where and what I'm fighting.<blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div><strong>"You rangers have something I want, so I want the developers to take it away from you and give it to me.</strong> "</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">You were never supposed to be outdamaging everyone to begin with is the thing.  You were intentionally placed below the Sorcerer classes.  A more accurate analogy is you stole the package I ordered off of my front porch and I'd like it back.  Sorcerers are supposed to outdamage Rangers.  I want to be the man to go to for damage like I was supposed to be all along, not a buffbot with mediocre damage.  Besides, it's not only Rangers that are causing problems.  Many other classes are outdamaging Sorcerers when they clearly shouldn't be.  The Ranger class is just the most obvious example.</font></div><hr></blockquote></span></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div><span>"We don't outdamage everyone to begin with  and secondly sorcerers won't outdamge in every instance just as we won't outdamge other classes in every instance. We weren't intentionally placed below the sorceror class...as I see it we were put in the same tier of damage....By the way exactly how much money a week goes towards your damage output? I can tell you as a lvl 60 ranger I spend anywhere between 2-4 platinum a week on poisons depending on where and what I'm fighting."</span></div><p><span><font color="#cc0033">This has been discussed to death.  The damage tiers were from top to bottom. If money is an issue, add spell components.  I'll pay for them even though we're supposed to outdamage you anyways.  Besides, if you can afford to use it all the time then it isn't near expensive enough to justify your damage.  Sorcerers are supposed to be at the top.  This argument has been over for some time.  The new argument is how to get them to the top if you'd like to contribute to it.</font></span></p><p><span>"Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from <font color="#cc3333">highest amount of damage output to the lowest.</font></p><div><p>First group:<font color="#cc3366"><font color="#cc3333">Wizard/Warlock</font> </font><font color="#ff00ff">Assassin/Ranger</font></p></div></span>

[Grign]

<div></div><p>An easy solution is to give sorcerers a potion that they can buy that does extra dmg, but also let them enjoy the 2 plat a week costs of enjoying their newfound dps.  Also, is it just me, or is the real issue here about Sorcerer supremecy?  Lol he just wants to be #1, everyone else be fubared!  Somewhere he must have received some literature from Sony that Sorcerors are supposed to be #1 and the rest of us "servant" classes need to accept our lot in life lol.  Bro, if you spent half as much time playing your toon, getting gear, and learning your class as you did posting on our forums, you would probably be out-dpsing rangers left and right.  Best of luck to you.  Now to my fellow rangers, let's let this thread die pls.</p><p>As for the Seahawks getting screwed, amen to that.  When the game was over I was wondering to myself "Man, I wonder what official they are going to name for MVP, since no one on the Steelers team did much of anything the entire game..." lol.</p>

[EverMan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div><span>"We don't outdamage everyone to begin with  and secondly sorcerers won't outdamge in every instance just as we won't outdamge other classes in every instance. We weren't intentionally placed below the sorceror class...as I see it we were put in the same tier of damage....By the way exactly how much money a week goes towards your damage output? I can tell you as a lvl 60 ranger I spend anywhere between 2-4 platinum a week on poisons depending on where and what I'm fighting."</span></div><p><span><font color="#cc0033">This has been discussed to death.  The damage tiers were from top to bottom. If money is an issue, add spell components.  I'll pay for them even though we're supposed to outdamage you anyways.  Besides, if you can afford to use it all the time then it isn't near expensive enough to justify your damage.  Sorcerers are supposed to be at the top.  This argument has been over for some time.  The new argument is how to get them to the top if you'd like to contribute to it.</font></span></p><p><span>"Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from <font color="#cc3333">highest amount of damage output to the lowest.</font></p><div><p>First group:<font color="#cc3366"><font color="#cc3333">Wizard/Warlock</font> </font><font color="#ff00ff">Assassin/Ranger</font></p></div></span><hr></blockquote>Yep Moorgard did post that meaning GROUPS from higest to lowest, Wizard/Warlock and Assassin/Ranger are in the same group.

[TalenMorg]

<div><span><blockquote><hr><p><span>"Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from <font color="#cc3333">highest amount of damage output to the lowest.</font></span></p><div><p>First group:<font color="#cc3366"><font color="#cc3333">Wizard/Warlock</font> </font><font color="#ff00ff">Assassin/Ranger</font></p></div><hr></blockquote>Exactly...5 groupings...and those 5 groupings are known as tiers....Tier one damage class should do more damage than tiers 2-5Rangers are in tier one....so whats your problem?  No one has ever said specifically that sorcerors will outdamage anyone else in tier one damage....Moorgard even stated in your quote that he wasnt giving precise numbers intended for each class....so how are you sure you're even supposed to be outdamaging a Ranger who has to pay a significant amount jut to do the damage they do?</span></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div>"Exactly...5 groupings...and those 5 groupings are known as tiers....Tier one damage class should do more damage than tiers 2-5Rangers are in tier one....so whats your problem?  No one has ever said specifically that sorcerors will outdamage anyone else in tier one damage....Moorgard even stated in your quote that he wasnt giving precise numbers intended for each class....so how are you sure you're even supposed to be outdamaging a Ranger who has to pay a significant amount jut to do the damage they do?"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">OK, then please explain this.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Fourth group:Berserker/ShadowknightPaladin/Guardian</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Berserker and Shadowknight are placed above Paladin and Guardian because they are offensive tanks.  The listing was not done by subclasses, it was done in terms of intended damage rankings.  This has already been proven to be the case.  The tiers were intended to rank from top to bottom.  It's been a pleasure explaining this to you.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">As for the costs that people love to rant about.  They're meaningless.  It's the only real drawback to the Ranger class currently.  You're disadvantage is payed in cash instead of in lack of versatility like some other classes.  Why am I so sure I'm supposed to be outdamaging you?  Because the developers have said Sorcerers are supposed to be the big damage dealers.  Here, I'll show you.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div>"Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from <font color="#cc3333">highest amount of damage output to the lowest.</font><p>First group:<font color="#cc3366"><font color="#cc3333">Wizard/Warlock</font> </font><font color="#ff00ff">Assassin/Ranger</font></p><p>Second group:Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet)Brigand/Swashbuckler</p><p>Third group:Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet)Troubador/DirgeBruiser/Monk</p><p>Fourth group:Berserker/ShadowknightPaladin/Guardian</p><p>Fifth group:Fury/WardenDefiler/MysticInquisitor/Templar"</p><p><font color="#cc0033">From another thread regarding the current mix up in damage ratings:</font></p><p>"Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another. If wizards and warlocks are not achieving that level of damage output now (and we agree there are cases that they are not), we will be adjusting class balance accordingly. In some situations this means other classes will be reduced in the amount of damage they do, while in other cases wizard and warlock damage may be upgraded. There is no one simple fix that will properly balance all classes, but rather it is an intricate system of weights and measures that takes time to adjust."</p><p><font color="#cc0033">Hope that cleared some things up for you.</font></p><p> </p></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:15 PM</span></p>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><font color="#cc0033">You were intentionally placed below the Sorcerer classes.  A more accurate analogy is you stole the package I ordered off of my front porch and I'd like it back. </font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div></blockquote></blockquote><div>I beg your pardon? Rangers stole Sorcerer's DPS?  Ah yes, I have it in my quiver next to the Lindburg baby.</div><div>I find it offensive that you would even put such a ludicrous analogy in this forum. </div><div> </div><div>here,  take some of your dps back</div><div>/duel      </div><div> </div>

[TalenMorg]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div>"Exactly...5 groupings...and those 5 groupings are known as tiers....Tier one damage class should do more damage than tiers 2-5Rangers are in tier one....so whats your problem?  No one has ever said specifically that sorcerors will outdamage anyone else in tier one damage....Moorgard even stated in your quote that he wasnt giving precise numbers intended for each class....so how are you sure you're even supposed to be outdamaging a Ranger who has to pay a significant amount jut to do the damage they do?"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">OK, then please explain this.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Fourth group:Berserker/ShadowknightPaladin/Guardian</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Berserker and Shadowknight are placed above Paladin and Guardian because they are offensive tanks.  The listing was not done by subclasses, it was done in terms of intended damage rankings.  This has already been proven to be the case.  The tiers were intended to rank from top to bottom.  It's been a pleasure explaining this to you.</font></div><hr></blockquote>Nice try but you'd better try again.Show me where it was stated specifically that classes were rated top of tier to bottom of tier because it has never been done and as moorgard stated he declined to give precise damage and your theory has never been proven to be the case.And again show me once where you have had to pay a significant price to maintain your damage as we do.And lastly Take a cue from Rangers....when we have a percieved problem with our class we discuss it and try to get devs involved....instead of crying for another class to be nerfed.</span></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div><div>"I beg your pardon? Rangers stole Sorcerer's DPS?  Ah yes, I have it in my quiver next to the Lindburg baby.</div><div>I find it offensive that you would even put such a ludicrous analogy in this forum. </div><div> </div><div>here,  take some of your dps back</div><div>/duel"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Calm down.  The original statement I responded with that to was saying Sorcerers were trying to get the developers to take something away from you.  I used that analogy to show that what you think we're trying to take from you was never actually supposed to be yours in the first place.  It's not stealing if we're simply taking back something you took or received by mistake.  And yes I would like my DPS to be at the top were I was told it would be, thank you.</font></div><div> </div></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:41 PM</span></p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>"Nice try but you'd better try again.Show me where it was stated specifically that classes were rated top of tier to bottom of tier because it has never been done and as moorgard stated he declined to give precise damage and your theory has never been proven to be the case.And again show me once where you have had to pay a significant price to maintain your damage as we do.And lastly Take a cue from Rangers....when we have a percieved problem with our class we discuss it and try to get devs involved....instead of crying for another class to be nerfed."</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Discussion can take on many forms.  We do not pay for damage because that is not the drawback of our class.  Low survivability is.  We pay in ability rather than money.  I highlighted the line in which the top to bottom theory was explained.  I'll show it to you again.  </font></div><p>There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from <strong><font color="#cc0033">highest amount of damage output to the lowest.</font></strong></p><p><font color="#cc0033">That coupled with the tank groupings is evidence enough to any person not trying purposefully to ignore it that the top to bottom theory is correct.  If you choose to ignore that then I can not help you.  Trying to ignore the facts presented to you isn't going to convince anyone other than yourself.  You are not a dev so I would try to convince more people than that.  Lastly, I am not trying to get you nerfed.  I am trying to get Sorcerers put at the top, where we were told we would be.  I do, however, know enough to take whatever balancing SOE is willing to provide for me.  Be it nerf, buff, or both.  Whatever gets me to where I was told I would be.</font></p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-08-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:53 AM</span></p>

[TalenMorg]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div></div><div>"Exactly...5 groupings...and those 5 groupings are known as tiers....Tier one damage class should do more damage than tiers 2-5Rangers are in tier one....so whats your problem?  No one has ever said specifically that sorcerors will outdamage anyone else in tier one damage....Moorgard even stated in your quote that he wasnt giving precise numbers intended for each class....so how are you sure you're even supposed to be outdamaging a Ranger who has to pay a significant amount jut to do the damage they do?"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">OK, then please explain this.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Fourth group:Berserker/ShadowknightPaladin/Guardian</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Berserker and Shadowknight are placed above Paladin and Guardian because they are offensive tanks.  The listing was not done by subclasses, it was done in terms of intended damage rankings.  This has already been proven to be the case.  The tiers were intended to rank from top to bottom.  It's been a pleasure explaining this to you.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">As for the costs that people love to rant about.  They're meaningless.  It's the only real drawback to the Ranger class currently.  You're disadvantage is payed in cash instead of in lack of versatility like some other classes.  Why am I so sure I'm supposed to be outdamaging you?  Because the developers have said Sorcerers are supposed to be the big damage dealers.  Here, I'll show you.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div>"Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from <font color="#cc3333">highest amount of damage output to the lowest.</font><p>First group:<font color="#cc3366"><font color="#cc3333">Wizard/Warlock</font> </font><font color="#ff00ff">Assassin/Ranger</font></p><p>Second group:Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet)Brigand/Swashbuckler</p><p>Third group:Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet)Troubador/DirgeBruiser/Monk</p><p>Fourth group:Berserker/ShadowknightPaladin/Guardian</p><p>Fifth group:Fury/WardenDefiler/MysticInquisitor/Templar"</p><p><font color="#cc0033">From another thread regarding the current mix up in damage ratings:</font></p><p>"Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another. If wizards and warlocks are not achieving that level of damage output now (and we agree there are cases that they are not), we will be adjusting class balance accordingly. In some situations this means other classes will be reduced in the amount of damage they do, while in other cases wizard and warlock damage may be upgraded. There is no one simple fix that will properly balance all classes, but rather it is an intricate system of weights and measures that takes time to adjust."</p><p><font color="#cc0033">Hope that cleared some things up for you.</font></p><p> </p></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Generally speaking where did he say that there was a top of tier and bottom of tier damage? Generally speaking Moorgard said depending on how a class is played it is more than possible for certain classes to outdamage other classes....generally speaking.Instead of generalities show me conclusive proof of the top of tier and bottom of tier damage .....while your at it show me why we should be nerfed and why you shouldnt have to pay for your extra damage.As it stands now I know wizards that solo Cazels...and Poets...and Ancients...perhaps not killing the end mobs but everything else.....seems odd this is even possible as underpowered as you all claim to be.</span></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>"Generally speaking where did he say that there was a top of tier and bottom of tier damage? Generally speaking Moorgard said depending on how a class is played it is more than possible for certain classes to outdamage other classes....generally speaking.Instead of generalities show me conclusive proof of the top of tier and bottom of tier damage .....while your at it show me why we should be nerfed and why you shouldnt have to pay for your extra damage.As it stands now I know wizards that solo Cazels...and Poets...and Ancients...perhaps not killing the end mobs but everything else.....seems odd this is even possible as underpowered as you all claim to be"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">The thing is, Rangers are outdamaging everyone all of the time unless they are not even trying.  I've stated countless times that the cost of your damage is negligible for the returns and comes with the territory of the class.  It is your only real drawback.  I have also stated that I am willing to pay for spell components if it means I am going to be put where I am supposed to be in terms of damage.  As to the proof, I've shown it to you.  You're simply ignoring it in an attempt to cause a stalemate rather than actually argue.  Lastly, how did soloability come into this? The game is balanced mostly for groups.  We're talking about damage, friend.  And for future reference, it's not soloing an encounter unless you kill the boss.  The evidence is there, refuse to ignore it if you want.</font></div><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:42 PM</span></p>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>BtilTheMage wrote:</p><p>"Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another. If wizards and warlocks are not achieving that level of damage output now (and we agree there are cases that they are not), we will be adjusting class balance accordingly. In some situations this means other classes will be reduced in the amount of damage they do, while in other cases wizard and warlock damage may be upgraded. There is no one simple fix that will properly balance all classes, but rather it is an intricate system of weights and measures that takes time to adjust."</p><div><p><font color="#cc0033">Hope that cleared some things up for you.</font></p><p> </p></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Anyone can take a statement out of context and post it as an authoritative quote to suport their ridiculous argument.  However, lets look at it in it's full context..,</p><p> </p><p><font color="#ccffff">"There have been questions recently about where wizards and warlocks are intended to fit in terms of damage output, as some players are concerned that these classes aren't fulfilling their role in this regard. I thought I'd address some of these questions in a general way, with the understanding that specific answers will have to wait until we have evaluated the damage output of all classes. This post does not promise any timeframe for when changes may occur.Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another. If wizards and warlocks are not achieving that level of damage output now (and we agree there are cases that they are not), we will be adjusting class balance accordingly. In some situations this means other classes will be reduced in the amount of damage they do, while in other cases wizard and warlock damage may be upgraded. There is no one simple fix that will properly balance all classes, but rather it is an intricate system of weights and measures that takes time to adjust.<font color="#66ffff"><strong>Having said the above, players need to realize that there may be instances where wizards and warlocks are not doing the highest damage.</strong></font> At certain levels another class may get a new ability that surpasses wizards and warlocks, because all classes don't get the same kinds of abilities at the same level (i.e. a scout may get a new high-damage art at a given level while a mage gets a new utility spell). <font color="#66ffff"><strong>In general, wizard/warlock damage will be highest, though there is no iron-clad guarantee that this will be the case in every possible situation.</strong></font>Another factor is the quality of abilities being compared. <strong><font color="#66ffff">A wizard/warlock should not assume that they can outdamage everyone based on the Apprentice I versions of their spells.</font> </strong>For instance, if an assassin has a Master I level ability, a wizard/warlock may do less damage if using an Apprentice III version of a similar-level spell. Please remember that spell/art upgrades are a crucial part of every class' ultimate potential. <font color="#66ffff"><strong>No class should assume that with no effort or work on their part that they can be the "master" of anything, including damage output.</strong></font><font color="#ffff99"><strong>Also keep in mind that no matter how much work is put into class balance, it is likely that some people will never be satisfied with the results. This is partly because players often view their class with a combination of personal preference and emotional bias that causes them to say things like "this is what a wizard should be" when in fact a wizard is what each particular game makes of it.</strong></font><font color="#66ffff"><strong>Our goal is that all classes have fun and powerful abilities that make every class enjoyable to play. This is perhaps the most crucial aspect of game balance, far more important than parsing numbers or comparing stats.</strong></font>===========================MoorgardEverQuest II Community Guy" </font></p><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ffffff">Yes, you cleared that up just fine thank you.  I told you twice before.  This is the Ranger forum.  Tell to someone who doesn't know better.</font></p>

[TalenMorg]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr></blockquote><p></p><hr><p><font color="#ffffff">Yes, you cleared that up just fine thank you.  I told you twice before.  This is the Ranger forum.  Tell to someone who doesn't know better.</font></p><hr></blockquote>Priceless<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#cc0033">You missed the part about highest over all damage output.  Last time I checked that was Rangers.  The Apprentice 1 remark is also kind of funny since even master level Sorcerers are admitting there is a problem.  A Sorcerer putting forth all their effort will never be able to match a Ranger putting forth all their effort.  Stop trying to justify the state of Sorcerers.  We have always been told we would be at the top, this isn't true at the moment. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">"Yes, you cleared that up just fine thank you.  I told you twice before.  This is the Ranger forum.  Tell to someone who doesn't know better."</font></p><p><font color="#cc0033">I'm not leaving until people stop trying to shrug off everything I say with the same two irrelevant excuses.  People using these excuse is what started this whole argument.</font></p><p><font color="#cc0033">I'll argue for Sorcerers to be put where they belong as long as it takes, wherever it takes.</font></p><p><font color="#cc0033">The message in that entire post is so blatant it's sad to see you ignoring.  If you really don't see it, that's even worse.  The enrie post is getting at Sorcerers being the best damage in most situations.  The parts you highlighted are only explainations as to why we may not be doing this in some situations.  The rest is talking about improvements to get us to the point of being at the top the majority of the time. At the moment, we aren't.  Can you honestly tell me you think  the current situation is fair to Sorcerers after we were told we would be able to outdamage Rangers and Summoners outside of special cases?  </font></p><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:01 PM</span></p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div>"Priceless<span><img border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" height="16" width="16">"</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span><font color="#cc0033">Like your damage?</font></span></div>

[TalenMorg]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div>"Priceless<span><img border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" height="16" width="16">"</span></div><div><span></span> </div><div><span><font color="#cc0033">Like your damage?</font></span></div><hr></blockquote>No, like the fact that you as a Sorceror come to a Ranger forum to complain about your class problems instead of doing it in a mage forum...and if your forum is dead I can see why. And as stated earlier...our damage is far from priceless....in fact its quite costly.</span></div><p>Message Edited by TalenMorgan on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:58 PM</span></p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#cc0033">This entire argument started from someone trying to justify the Sorcerers situation by stating they made up for it in utility.  They don't.  Sorcerers were not brough into it by me.  I simply chose to defend my class from being written off by Rangers who were bitter from a miniscule change.</font></p><p><strong>"Take wizards for example. Wizards are supposed to be one of the top damage dealers - they have said this, plus it is obvious they don't have anything else to offer. People play wizards for this reason."-Statement on Wizards</strong></p><p><font color="#ff9900"><strong>"They do offer a lot more than just pure dmg which WE only do."-Ranger trying to keep us from doing our job</strong></font></p><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:05 PM</span></p>

[AfflictedOne]

<span><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div></div><p><font color="#cc0033">You missed the part about highest over all damage output.  Last time I checked that was Rangers.  The Apprentice 1 remark is also kind of funny since even master level Sorcerers are admitting there is a problem.  A Sorcerer putting forth all their effort will never be able to match a Ranger putting forth all their effort.  Stop trying to justify the state of Sorcerers.  We have always been told we would be at the top, this isn't true at the moment. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffff">"Yes, you cleared that up just fine thank you.  I told you twice before.  This is the Ranger forum.  Tell to someone who doesn't know better."</font></p><p><font color="#cc0033">I'm not leaving until people stop trying to shrug off everything I say with the same two irrelevant excuses.  People using these excuse is what started this whole argument.</font></p><p><font color="#cc0033">I'll argue for Sorcerers to be put where they belong as long as it takes, wherever it takes.</font></p><hr></blockquote>The reason why sorcerer damage is lacking is pretty simple.  There's 2 main reasons.  1. They have really bad deaggro.  This is easy enough to fix.  2.  They only have 1 stat to worry about.  On top of that int gear is really easy to get ahold of and they have some really nice int buffs.  So to make a long story short they get much closer to capping their main damage attribute while solo.   So when grouping or raiding they gain little benefit from other players buffs.  This is also the reason that their spells cost so much power.  Things look to have been balanced based mostly on solo play.  So in reality mages having only 1 stat to worry about and having it so easy to raise actually hurts more than it helps.  This however is a bit trickier to fix since if you just increase the damage or lower the cast/recast times you make them supreme characters in solo play.  You could set the caps to be different for each class but that'll prolly take more time than SOE wants to put into it, not to mention people would complain one way or the other on this also.  But yes sorcerers do need some lovin' since in most parses I've seen they sit pretty well in the T3 slot and there'd have to be a lot of classes nerfed to put them in T1 damage for raids.  And yes this is from someone that's main is a ranger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Basically there are 4 classes that are supposed to be T1 dps and they should swap positions depending on the type of fight.</span><div></div>

[EverMan]

<div>For the sake of the arguement Sorcerers damage is fine the problems lies in they can't hit the mob.  Mobs being Fire and Posion immune mess you up but maybe if u played the game instead of being on the fourms 24/7 you would realize that and that coming from a ranger.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div>"For the sake of the arguement Sorcerers damage is fine the problems lies in they can't hit the mob.  Mobs being Fire and Posion immune mess you up but maybe if u played the game instead of being on the fourms 24/7 you would realize that and that coming from a ranger."</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Immunities were removed last patch.  Ranger/Summoner damage is still better than we can offer.  There really is no reason to bring a Sorcerer at this point. Oh hey, a Sorcerer LFG get him.  Nah let's wait for a Ranger.  I dunno Sorcerers have some pretty mean buffs since that's the point of their class!!!</font></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:29 PM</span></p>

[Jiinx]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font></div><div>"Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from <font color="#cc3333">highest amount of damage output to the lowest.</font><p>First group:<font color="#cc3366"><font color="#cc3333">Wizard/Warlock</font> </font><font color="#ff00ff">Assassin/Ranger</font></p><p>Second group:Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet)Brigand/Swashbuckler</p><p>Third group:Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet)Troubador/DirgeBruiser/Monk</p><p>Fourth group:Berserker/ShadowknightPaladin/Guardian</p><p>Fifth group:Fury/WardenDefiler/MysticInquisitor/Templar"</p><p><font color="#cc0033">From another thread regarding the current mix up in damage ratings:</font></p><p>"Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another. If wizards and warlocks are not achieving that level of damage output now (and we agree there are cases that they are not), we will be adjusting class balance accordingly. In some situations this means other classes will be reduced in the amount of damage they do, while in other cases wizard and warlock damage may be upgraded. There is no one simple fix that will properly balance all classes, but rather it is an intricate system of weights and measures that takes time to adjust."</p><p><font color="#cc0033">Hope that cleared some things up for you.</font></p><p></p></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The "Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output" quote is from January 2005.  It is speaking to how the rules went BEFORE the re-vamp.  At that time, the damage tiers were mage -> scout -> priest -> tank.  The re-vamp re-wrote the damage tier rules (much like it re-wrote many of the game's rules).Quotes prior to the re-vamp are now irrelevant.  SOE changed their minds.  They implemented something new.When Moorguard said about the re-vamp: "There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest", he was talking about groupings.  Nowhere in that post does he talk about relative positioning WITHIN the same tier.  Maybe the listing order inside a tier was intentional, and maybe not.  He doesn't explicitly talk about anything except the tiers themselves and how the tiers relate to each other.If you picked a Sorcerer because you thought it was cool to deal the most damage, and now you have to unexpectedly share the one thing you prize overall with Rangers, then hey, I understand how that can be disappointing.  But realize that it was SOE who re-wrote the rules, not us.  And while we're enjoying playing our Rangers even more post-revamp (we were VERY broken before it), coming into our forums and "arguing" for your view of the world is not appropriate.And yes, it is YOUR view you are arguing for, not SOE's.  SOE states we are in the SAME TIER as you.  We are supposed to do the most damage, along with the Sorcerers.  Continuing to complain that we do lots of damage won't get you anywhere.  Rangers are supposed to be in the top damage tier.Peace,Jiinx

[TaleraRis]

I'm reading it the same way Jiinx is.<div></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#cc3333">I'm not complaining about your damage, I'm complaining that my damage doesn't compare damnit.  This whole argument started from someone stating Sorcerer buffs made up for our lack of damage.  This is not true, and even if it is Sorcerers are supposed to be a damage class, not buffbots.  Sorcerers shouldn't be parsing so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] low, it needs to be fixed so that we have an actual chance of outdamaging you when you are playing at your best.  I won't lie though, I don't CARE how SOE fixes it as long as they do.  Sorcerers need to be where we were told we would be.</font></p><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:38 PM</span></p>

[Qwexer]

<div></div>Everyone just nod your head so he will go away.  He doesnt seem to want to leave until everyone agrees so I am agreeing. Done, move on and let's get back to what this community is good at, helping eachother.Edit: duh the whole reason I was going to post was to say I agree with Jay, you catch more bee's with honey than vinegar (why, I dont know but maybe the bee's are allergic to vinegar but I will run trials and post my results), oh and sorry about feeding the troll./bangs head "stupid, stupid"<span>Woodfire and his trusty sidekick Splinters31 Ranger 75th RegimentHighkeep (soon to be crashing butcherblocks party)Servants of ElizurTrader of collectibles pst me anytime</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Qwexer on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:03 PM</span></p>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><div>"Everyone just nod your head so he will go away.  He doesnt seem to want to leave until everyone agrees so I am agreeing. Done, move on and let's get back to what this community is good at, helping eachother."</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Not so much as everyone agreeing as I'm willing to respond to every post addressed toward me or meant to participate in my argument.  I promise to stop posting in the argument if you guys do.  It's getting boring and there are other threads to attend to!</font></div><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:12 PM</span></p>

[Prandtl]

<div></div><p>It is like teaching a pig to sing.      Wastes our time and annoys the pig</p><p>DPS Socialism: From those who have, to those who don't realize that they have</p><p> </p>

[KannaWhoopass]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Btil Go away</p><p>seriously yer aguments suck.</p><p>poisons as utilty danm man you are reaching yeah man 1G per use utility.</p><p>making a comparison of utility from wiz to ranger yikes man ..what class are you playing.</p><p>You would say providing evac which mages have ..or snare which is only  solo benefit to get 1 extra attack in.</p><p>or the debuffs we have which is magic mitigation reduction and fire mitigation reduction  (which doesnt benefit us ..cough mages) our 1 true debuff is defence reduction.</p><p>or pathfinding ... but the best is listing safefall ... a generic scout .. and monk ability .. yeah man i use safe fall all the time in combat ..all the time.</p><p>I have a level 50 Wizard im well aware of the buffs a Wizard and mage have.</p><p> </p><p>These are Wizard spells which have a utility finction built in to the DPS or are power feeds or buffs or enhance group members.</p><p> </p><p></p>Wizard 50 Frostshield Places an icy barrier surrounding target ally. Whenever that ally is struck by an enemy in combat, that enemy receives instant cold damage. This effect can trigger up to 3 times<p></p>Wizard 50 Ice Comet Deal significant Cold damage and stuns the target briefly. If a player is the target of this spell, it will also knockback and blur the vision of the player<p></p>Wizard 52 Lapse Instantly interrupts and stifles the wizard's target for a brief duration with a small amount of magic damage. This spell has no cast time and a very small power cost.<p></p>Wizard 52 Numbing Cold Reduces movement speed of up to six targets around the Wizard. Also a chance of immobilizing the target when they attempt a melee attack.<p></p>Wizard 53 Blazing Grandeur Places an augmentation that engulfs an ally's weapon in flames, that grants the chance to strike for additional heat damage with each successful attack<p></p>Wizard 53 Nimbus Aurora An emergency spell that mesmerizes the target and removes them from being affected by area of effect spells for a short duration. While this spell is maintained, the wizard is stunned, but the wizard can choose to not maintain the spell before the full duration expires. Mesmerization breaks if the target receives any damage. Upgrades to this spell reduce the target's resistance to the full duration of the effect<p></p>Wizard 54 Fist of the Tyrant A group augmentation that increases the strength and intelligence of the wizard's group.<p></p>Wizard 54 Ring of Ice Freezes movement on the target and the surrounding encounter members. When the freeze effect wears off, it slows their movement for a short duration. Every hostile spell or damage received by the target has a chance at breaking the effect. Upgrades to this spell reduce the target's resistance to the full duration of the effect <p></p>Wizard 55 Arctic Icicles Deals cold damage over time and decreases target's elemental resistance.<p></p>Wizard 56 Vitalic Reaping Allows the wizard to harvest health over time into power, stunning the wizard during the conversion process. It lasts for up to 15 seconds, and the wizard can terminate the harvest conversion early<p></p>Wizard 58 Incapacitate Stuns the wizard's target briefly and deals instant heat damage.<p></p>Wizard 59 Fiery Convulsions Deals instant Heat damage to an enemy. Also does additional Heat over-time damage with a chance to stifle the enemy.<p></p>Mage 7 Gift of the Magi An augmentation that increases the power pool and magic resistance for the mage's group.<p></p>Wizard 47 Essential Intromission Replenishes power to target ally, at the cost of the wizard's health<p></p>Wizard 47 Singularity An augmentation cast on the wizard's ally that grants a chance to instantly increase their power when they are hit in melee combat. This spell does not require any concentration, but can only be maintained on a single ally<p>Example of Ranger "Utility if you will "</p><p>Notice some require you to be behind the target</p><p>all just slow movement of target ..who cares the tank doesnt move ..doesnt do squat un less you are solo and pulling the mob</p><p>notice none help the group .</p><p> </p><p></p>Ranger 50 Snipe Decreases target's defense. This has an extended range.<p></p>Ranger 51 Forester's Noose Severely decreases target's resistance to heat and slows target's movement speed for a short time. The slow effect has a chance to break each time the target is attacked.<p></p>Ranger 52 Confusion Arrow Ranged attack that enrages the target, causing the next person it attacks to generate much more hate for a short duration<p></p>Ranger 55 Shroud of the Forest Increases agility, attack speed, and the in-combat movement speed of the ranger<p></p>Ranger 57 Culling the Weak A ranged attack that deals very high damage from behind. If it lands, the target's movement speed is slower. It requires a bow<p></p>Ranger 58 Snaring Shot A ranged attack that slows target's movement on a successful hit. A bow is required.<p></p>Scout 6 Cheap Shot Briefly stuns the target on a successful hit. Hitting the target again will break the stun on more challenging targets.<p><strong>OPPPPs forgot Pathfinding  ...heck ill throw in tracking too</strong></p><p>I will trade all of these to you if you you will give the mage ones to me </p><p>In addition you will loose 20% of your dps and gain the ability to buy and use poison which will increas yer overall dps by 10-15%.</p><p>I will wear robes you can wear chain .</p><p>I will get a 20% increase to my base DPS and loose ability to use poison.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>If you take into accout the added DPS you give to the group for the STR and INT increase and what you warding spells do when mobs hit yer targets. You ARE doing more DPS .. you are just upset cause others are getting DPS credit for your buffs. Yer class was working fine , My class was working fine</p><p> </p><p>If you cant agree to this proposal .... Go away .. you have no argument</p><p>If you agree to this ..Go away you have no common sence .</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by KannaWhoopass on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:52 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by KannaWhoopass on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:59 PM</span></p>

[Althkael]

Being from Washington and moving to North Carolina (with only broadcast stations) I'm just happy to have seen a couple of Seahawks games regardless of winning or losing.There's an underlying message in that which we should keep in mind here on the ranger forums.BTW I put the bottle of chill pills over there - feel free to have some too.<div></div>

[jarlaxle8]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div></div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Not so much as everyone agreeing as I'm willing to respond to every post addressed toward me or meant to participate in my argument.  I promise to stop posting in the argument if you guys do.  It's getting boring and there are other threads to attend to!</font></div><hr></blockquote><p>chill out. you are on the ranger forums, so people will disagree with you, no matter what. and some statements we give are true. you don't know our class. even some people who play both a wizard and ranger disagree with you.</p><p>but what's most important: it's no use if we agree with you or just plain don't disagree with you anymore. we are not SOE. and this argument is not constructive. even if you would have constructive suggestions, it's the wrong forum. you say the sorcerer forums are dead. well, put in a post there like the 'issues and solutions from the ranger community' thread on this forum. that's the way to go. no screaming, no arguments with other classes, just plain and simple 'what's wrong, and what we think would be a good solution'. perhaps it will reach SOE. but remember, in the end, SOE makes the classes. and they have the numbers.</p><p>and hey, remember: this is a game. lot's of us where able to enjoy it at the time we where a gimped class. why not try to enjoy it as well? you never know when you'll get a push to your class. or when the nerf bat will swing your way again... :smileytongue:</p><p>---------------------------<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=383113204" target="_self">Ryilan Nightbreeze </a>---------------------------</p>

[GoNom]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div></div><div></div><p><font color="#cc3333"></font></p><div><font color="#cc3333"><strong><u></u></strong></font> </div><div><font color="#ff00cc">*Editted to remove all the clutter at the top and botom, the point of this post is to counter the Rangers have mroe utility then Wizzy's point</font></div><div><font color="#ff00cc"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc3333"><strong><u>Ranger Utility = 16 Total</u></strong></font></div><div><p>Shroud of the Forest <font color="#ff0099">(Self Buff, no group use at all, and it buffs attack speed and Agility 2 useless atributes to a Ranger, although the plus 6% in combat Run speed is helpfull)</font></p><p>Pathfinding <font color="#ff0099">(All scouts have)</font></p><p>Safe Fall <font color="#ff0099">(All scouts and Monk have, and while its fun to take my AF'ing group over a cliff not sure how your considering this "Utility" for grouping.)</font></p><p>Evac <font color="#ff0099">(all scouts, and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near every class has a version of Evac now)</font></p><p>Snaring Shot <font color="#ff00cc">(Yah Snares are a real boost to a Group......It's not EQ1 where mobs run at 10%)</font></p><p>Culling the Weak <font color="#ff0099">(Same as above, the only Utility this offers to Rangers is while solo'ing, the snare does nothign for Groups)</font></p><p>Primal Agility <font color="#ff0099">(Self Aggro Debuff, Only thing it prevents, is Ranger Downs)</font></p><p>Thorny Trap <font color="#ff0099">(No Group Use)</font></p><p>Confusion Arrow <font color="#ff0099">(This causes more problems in groups then anything, since its broken, if poison or Arrow Frenzy proc after it, we generate the extra hate, and how many times have you seen a Ranger pull in a group?)</font></p><p>Foresters Noose <font color="#ff0099">(Snare, small Fire Debuff, I'll give you this one because of the debuff only, snares in EQ2 grouping are useless)</font></p><p>Snipe <font color="#ff0099">(Debuff vs Slash/pierce, some group frendliness)</font></p><p>Debilitating Arrow <font color="#ff0099">(Debuff, give you this one as well)</font></p><p>Stun Poison <font color="#ff0099">(We have to pay a Ton of coin to maintain this, so I'm glad my bank account should be used to validate your point, hey you can by HP Poition, so that means Wizzy's can buff the tank!!  Not including poisons in this discussion, why?  To make my point of course!  No seriously Poisons are a beech to maintain, those stun poisons and debuff poisons you mention?  They have 30 uses per charge and we have no controll over when they proc, so conceivably, and routienly, they can proc on consecutive shots.  In a normal day fighting I burrn through a 200 use poison every hour, at least.  That means that a 30 use poison lasts about 15-20 minutes depending on how fast the Tank is pulling.  They cost about 10-12g per 7charge poison.  So what you are implying, deliberately or not, is that I am expected to spend 6g-7g per hour to offer debuff and stun poison as group utility.  If thats the case, I should be doubling your damage.  Hom much coin are you spending to maximize your effectiveness?)</font></p><p>Debuff Poison <font color="#ff0099">(See above)</font></p><p>Cheap Shot <font color="#ff0099">(Don't even try to compare our stun capabilies with any Mage's)</font></p><p>Improved Surveil <font color="#ff0099">(Aggro Debuff and self invis, yah know groups are begging for me because of surviel!!!  I can see why you waited till last to mention it)</font></p><p><font color="#ff00cc">So after someone who actually plays the class takes a Retally of the Ranger utility spells you mentioned</font></p><p> </p><p><font color="#ff0099">Ranger Uility = 5 total!!!   2 of Which all scouts are capable of doing the same or much better (group invis ala Rogues)  1 about 10 classes total can do!!</font></p><p><strong><u></u></strong> </p><p><strong><u><font color="#ff00cc">Now, since I have never played a mage class, let alone a Wizzy I am going to do my best to base my comparison of Wozzy uility, and hold it to the same standards as above.  Your experience with the class may negate any points I make.  I opennly admit that ahead of time.</font></u></strong></p><p><strong><u>Wizard Utility = 16 Total</u></strong></p><p>Incapacitate - <font color="#ff0099">Stun + Heat damage, Sony page does not mention how long this lasts, if its like cheap shot, its not very usefull to a group, but if its like one of those 25 second "stuns"  thats a mezz IMO</font></p><p>Vitalic Reaping - <font color="#ff00cc">Self Buff to Regen mana quickly, turns said Wizzy into a drooling fool untill cancelled - not very group usefull</font></p><p>Vital Flood - <font color="#ff0099">Same as above, but more like the old Shammy Cannibalize line</font></p><p>Artic Icicles - <font color="#ff0099">Debuff Vs. Cold plus  DoT -</font></p><p>Ring of Ice - <font color="#ff0099">AoE Stunn and Snare, this has a good use for groups, its called Ghetto Mezzing adds</font></p><p>Fist of the Tyrant - <font color="#ff00cc">Group Buff...why...oh...why....do Wizzy's increase Str?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is with that!!!</font></p><p>Nimbus Aura - <font color="#ff0099">Mezz this one stays</font></p><p>Blazing Grandeur - <font color="#ff0099">Heat Proc applied to a group member.  Thus increasing said group members damage.  Question, if you have a Ranger in the group and someone is parsing, you throw this on the MT don't you?  Buffs someone else this one stays.</font></p><p>Numbing Cold - <font color="#ff00cc">AE snare, but has a chance to root if they attempt a melle, snares = useless.  Root = Utility</font></p><p>Lapse - <font color="#ff0099">Stifle and interupt - its a winner</font></p><p>Frostshield - <font color="#ff00cc">Cold based Damage sheild - Buffs someone else, its a winner</font></p><p>Icebound Gift - <font color="#ff0099">Group buff that adds a cold based Proc - Winner</font></p><p>Augmentation - <font color="#ff0099">Increases power and Heat/Cold resists - Group buff</font></p><p>Concussive - <font color="#ff0099">Is this Concurrence?  Chance to replenish an ally's everytime they are hit?  This is HUGE utility!!  Who is always the first out of powe, the MT, who is the one taking all the hits, the MT.</font></p><p>Evac - <font color="#ff0099">This is obviously a wash between us</font></p><p>Firy Convulsions - <font color="#ff0099">A chance to stifle - not very usefull I'll drop this one</font></p><p>Snow-Filled steps - <font color="#ff0099">another one you failed to mention, underwater Vision and see invis to all group members</font></p><p><font color="#ff0099">Essential Intromission - You left this one out, grants power to an ally at the cost of Wizzy's health, practical  Not very but usefull if healer is LoM</font></p><p><font color="#ff0099">Okay trying to be as objective as I can, considering there are a lot of roots and stuns you neglected to mention</font></p><p><font color="#ff0099">Rangers - 1 group buff (pathfinding)Wizzy's - 7 buffs for group or Ally</font></p><p><font color="#ff0099">Do you want to continue this conversation on utility?  Not even worth my time getting into Raid utility.....So you can buff Resists and 2 stat lines.   Mezz, Power feed.  We both do a little debuffing.  Frankly I would kill to offer the Utility you have.</font></p><p><font color="#ff0099">Sorry bro, your arguments hold absolutely no merit, considering you included all our self buffs in your argument, I'm not even sure if you get any, but you didn't mention them.  looks like you went fishing to make a point.  But it holds no water freind.   Even if you throw in stun and debuff poisons, you still own us in the Utility department.  As you should, because we own you in the damage department, get over it.  I have never seen a Wizzy passed up for a raid/group because a Ranger might become available, the differences in a long fight are minor.  Even before recent changes</font></p><p> </p><p><strong><u>Ranger Raid Utility = 8 Total</u></strong></p><p>Improved Surveil <font color="#ff00cc">(Have never used this in a raid, not once and I have never pulled aggro from our Raid MT, not once so obviously not very usefull)</font></p><p>Primal Agility <font color="#ff0099">(Usefull only to the Ranger, to debuff our own hate consider that on top of the normal hate that high DPS generates  Stream of Arrows has a +12% hate modifier that goes with it, this isn't usefull this is a nessesity)</font></p><p>Confusion Arrow  <font color="#ff0099">( How in bloody hell is this RAID USEFULL  ARE YOU INSANE!!!!!)   You realize that, unless you want the Ranger to pull, this is absolutely the worst CA in EQ2 to use durring a raid?   When one uses this, whomever, including the Ranger, hits the mob, east 25% more hate?  Now with poison and Arrow frenzy, I proc about 35-40% of the time  those procs count as a hit after Confusion arrow</font>)</p><p>Foresters Noose <font color="#ff0099">(Small Debuff I give you this)</font></p><p>Snipe <font color="#ff0099">(See above)</font></p><p>Debilitating Arrow <font color="#ff0099">(see above)</font></p><p>Debuff Poison <font color="#ff0099">(see above post on debuff poisons and why I am leaving them out of this conversation because we could call any class a healer for giving the MT a heal potion and any class a buffer for giving the MT a HP buff potion, heck I'm now a chanter cause I gave the MT some drink and now his/her Power regen is over 70+!!!!)</font></p><p>Shroud of the Forest <font color="#ff0099">(Self buff how is this a Raid utility?  Mind answering that?  Did you read the ability?  Have you ever while grouped with a Ranger seen this buff on you?  And if so what would +30 Agi do for anyone but the MT?)</font></p><p> </p></div><hr></blockquote><p>So in closing, if you want to come over here trolling for an argument, please at least make an attempt at basing it on facts.  I have never, and will never post in the Wizzy forums looking to pick a fight, I think its Juvenile and tacky.  How about you scrutinize your own spell line instead of worrying about every other class out there. WAHHH  Rangers do to much damage.......booohoooo.......get over it, play your class and have fun.  Don't start flame wars based on fiction dude.</p><p>Message Edited by GoNomar on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:45 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by GoNomar on <span class="date_text">02-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:45 AM</span></p>

[GoNom]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div>"Bla, bla, bla...  This isn't a Sorcerer forum."</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">And Rangers aren't supposed to be #1 undisputed damage.  There are alot of things wrong aren't there?</font></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Please provide a link, and my counter argument to your DPS listing earlier is that Preds are listed at the bottom of every list in this game, from the forums to the class guides to the brokers.  So you being on the "top" of that list is just a continuation of the norm.  My interpretation of that statement was that Group 1 DPS includes in no specific order:</p><p>Wizzy/WarlockRanger/Assasin</p><p>And depending on the environment 1 class is capable of out performing the other, which is the case.....you would go balasitc if you did the damage we did solo, actually you would probably post something on the Necro board to protest it.</p><p>Since we pay coin out of our pockets, and don't think it doesn't cost much.  T6 Poisons at 12g a pop add up quick....I have easily spent 2-3plat on poisons.....thats a very conservative # BTW.   Without poison, which is a volountary cost, you would desrtoy me in damage.....complete ownage........so why does it erk you so much that a Ranger out damages you?   Ego problems?  Afraid of competition?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is the matter with you guys, take it to the Devs....we don't care about the plights of your class!! </p><p>So I pay 3plat+ for my damage, how much out of pocket does your damage cost you? hmmm?  waiting....Nope Nice try we have to upgrade our spells just like you so you can't use that argument, oh BTW did I mention alot of us have to buy arrows for raids?  Cause alot of Raid mobs are Pierce/Slash resist/immune?  Did you know that?  Apparently not, come trolling in here looking to pick a fight with Rangers, and frankly you don't have a fricken clue about us.  Not even the slightest, you see the numbers in a parse, and the spell lines and go crying to the Devs to whip out the nerf bat.</p><p>Get a life dude</p><p> </p>

[GoNom]

<div></div><blockquote><hr><p><font color="#cc3333">Again, looks like they agree with me.</font></p><p><font color="#cc3333">And why am I here?  Because I'm tired of people trying to spew worthless excuses like buffs, which aren't even that great/the purpose of the class, to justify the sad state the Sorcerer class is in.  In the case of Warlocks you actually have MORE utility to contribute to a group/raid. I'm pretty sure there are not only going to be more "nerfs", but possibly some actual fixes for the mage classes as a whole(Summoners will get a different kind of fix though).  Sorcerers are going to be at the top of the damge tree where they belong, whether it is with nerfs, fixes, or a more likely combination of both.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>You do of course realize you sound like a 4 year old?  You took my ball away and I'm gonna get the principal to get it back, whether he has to buy me a new one, spank everyone or shoot everyone in my class!!</p><p> </p><p>WAHHHHHHHH  I WANT MY BALLLY!!!!!!!!!!</p><p> </p><p>I repeat, get a life.  Go bark up a tree that gives a rats [Removed for Content]</p>

[Qwexer]

<span><blockquote><hr>GoNomar wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr><p><font color="#cc3333">Again, looks like they agree with me.</font></p><p><font color="#cc3333">And why am I here?  Because I'm tired of people trying to spew worthless excuses like buffs, which aren't even that great/the purpose of the class, to justify the sad state the Sorcerer class is in.  In the case of Warlocks you actually have MORE utility to contribute to a group/raid. I'm pretty sure there are not only going to be more "nerfs", but possibly some actual fixes for the mage classes as a whole(Summoners will get a different kind of fix though).  Sorcerers are going to be at the top of the damge tree where they belong, whether it is with nerfs, fixes, or a more likely combination of both.</font></p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">You do of course realize you sound like a 4 year old?  You took my ball away and I'm gonna get the principal to get it back, whether he has to buy me a new one, spank everyone or shoot everyone in my class!!</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"> </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">WAHHHHHHHH  I WANT MY BALLLY!!!!!!!!!!</font></p><p> </p><p>I repeat, get a life.  Go bark up a tree that gives a rats [Removed for Content]</p><hr></blockquote>Rofl....but remember kids...Dont feed the troll....jk<img src="http://i47.imagethrust.com/i/252533/cavetroll.jpg"><span>Woodfire and his trusty sidekick Splinters31 Ranger 75th RegimentHighkeep (soon to be crashing butcherblocks party)Servants of ElizurTrader of collectibles pst me anytime</span></span><div></div>

[BtilTheMage]

<div></div><font color="#cc0033">Seems like you guys would have stopped bumping the thread by now if you really wanted me to be gone.  I''ve moved to the combat forum, feel free to stop by.  Oh yeah, let the thread die.</font>

[Radgen]

<div></div><span>Game DesignerPosts: 1351Registered: 11-07-2004 </span><img border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" alt="" height="8" width="150"><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=103"><img border="0" src="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/images/eq2_moorgard.jpg" alt="Moorgard" height="70" width="70"></a><p><span>Reply <a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=68617#M68617"><font color="#c8c1b5">19</font></a> of 39 </span><img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" height="6" width="1"><span>Viewed 2108 times</span></p><img border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" alt="" height="1" width="1"><div></div><blockquote><hr>Radgen wrote:<div></div><p>What is confuseing you is that a ranger/assasin can outdamage a caster for a single encounter IF all our CA's are ready to go, but it is spike DPS, not constant.   But you can't go by a single encounter where everyone has everything ready, you have to go by extended periods of near constant fighting.  The different re-use rates have a big effect.</p><hr><p></p></blockquote><div>Correct.</div><div> </div><div>The relative damage rankings posted a while back were clearly stated not to be absolutes. They aren't true at all level ranges and in all circumstances or against every kind of opponent. They were posted as a general guideline only.</div><div> </div><div>To parse a certain fight or two and say "Look, this other class that is supposed to do less damage than mine outdamaged me" is not indicative of a problem in and of itself. There are a lot of factors to take into account. The rankings were meant to indicate relative positions over the long haul, not in every single encounter.</div><div> </div><div>We have access to combat data across all servers, levels, and group sizes, and we use it to look for cases where classes are performing as a whole either noticeably above or below expectations and will continue to make adjustments as necessary.</div><p>===========================Steve Danuser, a.k.a. MoorgardGame Designer, EverQuest II</p><p> </p><p>Bit this is Moongard explaining the damage teirs.  So unless you want to say that HE didn;t know what he was talking about, go back to the drawingboard.  This is form this thread.</p><p><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=68156#M68156">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=68156#M68156</a></p>

[Jay]

<div></div><p>Wow! How sad, hilarious, and ironic that the post I made in a moment of clarity got turned into such a maelstrom of infighting, bickery, and pointless colorful formatted lists. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyway, it's nice to see that a few people got what I was trying to say, and realize that being [Removed for Content] and idiotic about these changes or class balance or wizards or Stream or poisons or that crap just hurts you, nobody else.</p><p>Do I like these changes. HELL NO. I don't like having my bow damage cut in half overnight, at all.</p><p>I absolutely do not believe that screaming at SOE and telling them they all suck and that their Devs are crack-babies is going to make THOSE VERY SAME DEVS want to help us. We pay for their game, it's in their best interests to listen to us, but you know what? Very little that we post here makes ANY difference to them. What little DOES make a difference is probably going to be informative, concise, and clear. Not cluttered up by hatred and impotent teenage angst.</p><p>Would you want to help someone if they walked up to you, called you a fat slimy disgusting SOB and slapped you across the face before kicking you in the shins and dumping untreated sewage over your head?</p><p>RE: the rangers versus sorcers dead horse... why, oh why, do you continue this? Sorcs DO outdamage us now - not ALL the time, but more of it. You got what ya wanted, and congrats! Yes, rangers may still outdamage sorcs some of the time, and if you can't handle that, cancel your subscription. Sorcerors should never be undisputed top DPS in every single situation. If that's what you want, enjoy the frustration you're bound to endure.</p><p>I'm not going anywhere.  </p>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>Would you want to help someone if they walked up to you, called you a fat slimy disgusting SOB and slapped you across the face before kicking you in the shins and dumping untreated sewage over your head?</p><hr></blockquote>You're not married are you?:smileyvery-happy:

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>BtilTheMage wrote:<div></div><div>"Exactly...5 groupings...and those 5 groupings are known as tiers....Tier one damage class should do more damage than tiers 2-5Rangers are in tier one....so whats your problem?  No one has ever said specifically that sorcerors will outdamage anyone else in tier one damage....Moorgard even stated in your quote that he wasnt giving precise numbers intended for each class....so how are you sure you're even supposed to be outdamaging a Ranger who has to pay a significant amount jut to do the damage they do?"</div><div> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">OK, then please explain this.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Fourth group:Berserker/ShadowknightPaladin/Guardian</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">Berserker and Shadowknight are placed above Paladin and Guardian because they are offensive tanks.  The listing was not done by subclasses, it was done in terms of intended damage rankings.  This has already been proven to be the case.  The tiers were intended to rank from top to bottom.  It's been a pleasure explaining this to you.</font></div><div><font color="#cc0033"></font> </div><div><font color="#cc0033">As for the costs that people love to rant about.  They're meaningless.  It's the only real drawback to the Ranger class currently.  You're disadvantage is payed in cash instead of in lack of versatility like some other classes.  Why am I so sure I'm supposed to be outdamaging you?  Because the developers have said Sorcerers are supposed to be the big damage dealers.  Here, I'll show you.</font></div>SNIP<p> </p><p>Message Edited by BtilTheMage on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:15 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I notice you miss the post where he said no one class would always be the bigger damager. That it was situational. To tired to link it, but I'm sure someone remembers that.I also note that my brothers now complain that they can't even solo high level mobs anymore yet casters have been rooting and nuking mobs way higher than their level even before they whined about ranger DPS.If you want changes to happen to your class, stop trying to screw other classes. Work on your class like we did prior to CU. Prior to that we were outright screwed in terms of damage.You think poisons aren't expensive enough if I use them all the time? That's all I really spend my money on anymore as it's 30-50% of my damage. I would love for them to add components to your spells. You say you'd take it, but once it happened, the casters would whine even louder.

[Saihung23]

<div></div><p>Cronon! Glad to see you again, I always dig seeing that yellow name and Desert Riddler rank <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p>

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>KannaWhoopass wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>You ARE doing more DPS .. you are just upset cause others are getting DPS credit for your buffs. Yer class was working fine , My class was working fine<p> </p><p>If you cant agree to this proposal .... Go away .. you have no argument</p><p>If you agree to this ..Go away you have no common sence .</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by KannaWhoopass on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:52 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by KannaWhoopass on <span class="date_text">02-06-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:59 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>And that's a big point that I can't understand why other people can't get. My str is like 250 but in a normal group goes up to 400+. Those buffs aren't mine. Those are another member buffing my str which increases my damage. I may get higher damage but it's only with the buffs of others. My highest hit at 60 so far is 7000 plus change (can't remember. See signature). That was not done solo. That was someone's buffs hitting me. Was it a mystic, dirge, sorcerer? I don't know. I don't look at those kinds of things. I play. Why is it though that classes are unwilling to take credit for the role they DO take in a group. Someone's in denial and it's not me. At a raid, when they tell us to buff up, I've got three I cast on myself and myself only. An agro debuff, the other one (god I always forget) and my offensive stance.

[Cron]

<blockquote><hr>Saihung23 wrote:<div></div><p>Cronon! Glad to see you again, I always dig seeing that yellow name and Desert Riddler rank <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>Hey Bud... Long time no talk. I'm still around. Busy at work and to tired of seeing all the complaining. I'm still jumping in now an then to offer my thoughts (even though they may not be wanted). I'm stunned I still go the Desert Riddler title. Is it a life thing? LOL (got it for answering a question correctly waiting for servers to come up from DOF launch.)

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>Would you want to help someone if they walked up to you, called you a fat slimy disgusting SOB and slapped you across the face before kicking you in the shins and dumping untreated sewage over your head?</p><hr></blockquote>You're not married are you?:smileyvery-happy:<hr></blockquote>I used to be - where do you think I got that example?? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Corwinus]

<div></div><p>Come on guys, lets go back to the original post and stop that bickering that does not look like us Rangers.</p><p>I agree with Jay and the best way to cull our herd is to do what we always do, be optimistic and look forward, not backward.</p><p>I always enjoyed that forum, even if i dont participate too much because its alive, full of funny people and interesting informations.</p><p>Now that this is stated dont you think we have some more fun things to look after,  like what AE path is best for us or our new spells 60 to 70 and the best way to compensate for an eventual nerfing (personnaly i did not feel it that much - and its just perception - but the truth is i rely a lot on my friends pallys and templars).</p><p>Come on cheer up and leave the gloating and the arguing to the petty.</p><p>Corwin Silverclaw</p><p>Ranger 60, Carpenter 43 - The Awakening - Oasis</p>

[Niuan]

<div></div><p>I hate to be the naysayer here...   If you read any of my previous posts on this thread disposition of your post will not keep the nerf bat away, nor will it help overturn a nerf.   A good rant every once in while is great.  A good flame here and there better!  That's what is wrong with this "Prazac" generation... Can't stand any hint of even the slightest shade of a negative opinion or there must be something wrong with you... here take some Prozac. </p><p>At the very least a blatant flame is good for laughs! :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[xandez]

<div></div><p>go home ya wannabe wizzies, and remember to dodge the arrow! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>++Xan</p><p> </p>

[Corwinus]

<div></div><p>If you like dialectic for the only pleasure of discussing,  fine, but then go to an other forum we are not interested in your little game and can be more productive and positive than that.</p><p>Corwin Silverclaw</p><p>Ranger 60, Carpenter 43 - The Awakening - Oasis -</p><p>Prozac and Catnip addict <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>