The end of rare poisons

[Rijacki]

I thought you should know.  Because there isn't a scout forum any more, I will be posting this to the 4 relevant forums.  This is not intended as spam.<a target="_blank" href="message?board.id=a13&message.id=8643">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a13&message.id=8643</a><span><blockquote><hr>Beghn wrote:<p><font color="#ffff00">There have been some posts in the General Tradeskill forums with the effects on no sub-combines and the effect on Potions/Poisons crafting.  As by products are going away with the change I thought I'd detail more what we are going to be doing for alchemists and there potions/poisons.1. There will no longer be Rare potions/poisons.2. Potions/Poisons will be changing to single charge items but they will be stackable.3. The names of potions/poisons will become more streamline and understandable to the alchemist's customers.4. There will be a shorter list of effects that potions/poisons can do but they will all be useful to the right customer.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Poison Effects:</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Caustic Poison: Poison based health DD.Hemotoxin: Poison based health DoT.Vitality Breach: Poison based life-tap.Mental Breach: Poison based power tap.Essence of Turgur: Poison based slow.Fettering Poison: Poison based snare.Ignorant Bliss: Poison based agro-reduction.Stupefying Poison: Poison based short stun.Enfeebling Poison: Strength and offensive melee technique reduction.Cerebral Ebb: Int and casting technique reduction.Gracelessness: Agility and defensive technique reduction.Warding Ebb: Wisdom and spell resist reduction.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Potion Effects:</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Noxious Remedy: Cures noxious effects.Elemental Remedy: Cures elemental effects.Arcane Remedy: Cures arcane effects.Trauma Remedy: Cures trauma effects.Essence of Health: Health HealEssence of Power: Power HealEssence of Regeneration: Health heal over time.Essence of Clarity: Power heal over time.Freedom of Mind: Stun/Stifle break free.Elixir of Thorns: Damage shield.Elixir of Constitution: Health Pool increase.Elixir of Transcendence: Power pool increase.Elixir of Fortitude: Strength stat increase.Elixir of Deftness: Agility stat increase.Elixir of Piety: Wisdom stat increase.Elixir of Intellect: Intelligence stat increase.Elemental Reprieve: Elemental WardNoxious Reprieve: Noxious WardArcane Reprieve: Arcane Ward</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">Please feel free to express your questions/concerns and I'll try my best to address them as they come up.</font></p><p>Message Edited by Beghn on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:29 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Fennir]

sucks, but this is again gonna hit the other scouts a lot harder than us.<div></div>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div>Hmmm.....  I'll hold off til we see the final details.  While the damage hit is gonna suck, I wonder what we are gonna see on the debuff poisons.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:46 PM</span></p>

[snack-machine]

<div></div>I was wondering Fennir....why would this hit other scouts harder than us? I use rare poisons constantly and it appears as if they contribute singnificantly to my DPS.

[Fennir]

<div></div>i use them constantly too, but we still proc a ton more cuz we dont melee, they are forced to...our damage will definitely take a hit, but we can handle it...<div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:19 AM</span></p>

[snack-machine]

<div></div>Some of us solo, so we do melee. I count on the rare poison procs to lower the health of the mob before it reaches me as well as once engaged in melee. I don't see this as anything but a nerf for us. Depending upon your style of play and how much you enjoy the game.....many can handle it, I just don't like it at all because it will effect my DPS which will effect my ability to accomplish the things I need to (especially when solo).

[Fennir]

shrug.read the list of poisons.  we may be losing a little damage, but we are gaining other things... lifetap poison? hate reduction poison?   sounds awesome to me, i'm honestly looking forward to this change.<div></div>

[snack-machine]

<div></div><p>Hate reduction poison! That is good news! I can save money by not buying it since I won't be as concerned about hate reduction when they remove rare poisons from the game  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Not trying to start any flaming here at all...just a little humor.</p><p>PLEASE - I need my rare poison (sorry, I'm addicted).</p>

[Siphar]

<div></div><div>stealth scout nerf yet again....</div><div> </div><div>1st: Stream of arrows nerf'd to require distance - but maybe this was a little over powered.</div><div>2nd: Damage from Ranger offensive lowered, % remains constant.</div><div>3rd: No more proc on off hand procs form poison</div><div>4th: Now.... Lowered damage on poisons- no more Rare (perhaps off set by more debuff, but going to require more resources to achieve same effect)</div><div>5th: What next?  Probably remove our bows.... well they have only added one T6 fabled bow in DoF which is inferior anyway.</div><div> </div><div>/sigh</div><p>Message Edited by Siphar on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:55 PM</span></p>

[Nulad]

<span><blockquote><hr>Siphar wrote:<div></div><div>stealth scout nerf yet again....</div><div> </div><div>1st: Stream of arrows nerf'd to require distance - but maybe this was a little over powered.</div><div>2nd: Damage from Ranger offensive lowered, % remains constant.</div><div>3rd: No more proc on off hand procs form poison</div><div>4th: Now.... Lowered damage on poisons- no more Rare (perhaps off set by more debuff, but going to require more resources to achieve same effect)</div><div>5th: What next?  Probably remove our bows.... well they have only added one T6 fabled bow in DoF which is inferior anyway.</div><div> </div><div>/sigh</div><p>Message Edited by Siphar on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:55 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You forgot the mob run speed increase <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I don't see the problem with this, the only time I tend to use Legendary poisons is when trying to solo things that I probably shouldn't be soloing in the first place, granted they can be a big help in a tough fight when grouped too but I generally use normal stuff otherwise I find all I'm doing is making it that much easier to grab agro.  Legendary high damage poisons are just a power useage reducer in a group and with my power pool I don't need them.Maybe I need to find a better tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />RE your comment on Stream of Arrows.  So it requires a little distance, if you haven't worked out how to use it when soloing yet send me a pm.Nul.</span><div></div>

[GoNom]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Nuladen wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Siphar wrote:<div></div><div>stealth scout nerf yet again....</div><div> </div><div>1st: Stream of arrows nerf'd to require distance - but maybe this was a little over powered.</div><div>2nd: Damage from Ranger offensive lowered, % remains constant.</div><div>3rd: No more proc on off hand procs form poison</div><div>4th: Now.... Lowered damage on poisons- no more Rare (perhaps off set by more debuff, but going to require more resources to achieve same effect)</div><div>5th: What next?  Probably remove our bows.... well they have only added one T6 fabled bow in DoF which is inferior anyway.</div><div> </div><div>/sigh</div><p>Message Edited by Siphar on <span class="date_text">01-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:55 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You forgot the mob run speed increase <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I don't see the problem with this, the only time I tend to use Legendary poisons is when trying to solo things that I probably shouldn't be soloing in the first place, granted they can be a big help in a tough fight when grouped too but I generally use normal stuff otherwise I find all I'm doing is making it that much easier to grab agro.  Legendary high damage poisons are just a power useage reducer in a group and with my power pool I don't need them.Maybe I need to find a better tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />RE your comment on Stream of Arrows.  So it requires a little distance, if you haven't worked out how to use it when soloing yet send me a pm.Nul.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Why PM?  Just explain so all Ranja's can benfit from it

[Nulad]

Why? because it was early and I didn't have time to post it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Anyway...All you need to do is cheap shot mob and move away immediately, as soon as your Stream of Arrows button lights up hit it, you'll know if it's taken as you get rooted.  Job done, it's not rocket science and doesn't require a lot of space although there are some places that make it hard to do.  If you're having problems then make a macro to turn off autoattack after cheap shot and snare the mob before hitting it too.The two second stun is more than enough time to get far enough away to use Stream of Arrows.Nul.<div></div>

[King Leor]

<div></div>Well,,,,, For one, if we take a dmg hit on poions it's a huge [Removed for Content] deal. Poisons make up for 30 - 40 % of our dmg. I alwasy use adestes, and if I cant happen to get any I use ravaging disruption and that makes a huge difference while raiding. Lowers DPS by a couple hundred if not more. Hopefully they will up the dmg on the non rare poisons than.LeoricLevel 60 ranger

[Lysanthir Ahmquissar]

<div></div><p>As a soloer poison makes up a massive proportion of my DPS as I eventually hit melee unlike most grouped rangers (unless they get stupid and get aggro). I run a trio of scholars and discount significantly on Ad3's to keep the loam so I have a ready supply of poisons. In fact I actually use Adeste Disruption and Bite of the Shissar all the time I hunt because it gets critical to do as much damage as possible before whatever I am targetting reaches me. If I am over-reaching myself - say on a quest - the Cajoling Whispers gets tossed in as my "Effect" poison. A lot of the replacement poisons seem to have minimal use to the soloer - hate reduction??? Mmmh. Beghn hasn't so far replied to any post that asked about the stacking either.</p><p>That said Beghn has already said he has adjusted/re-written the proposed change and will announce more details today so things may have improved.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Te]

<div></div>I surely wont scream and jump untill I see the specific stats on each poison, maybe it aint all bad.

[Sollum]

<div></div>Might look good, but what will stack with what - if at all.  Using High DD against a mob, you get clobbered - "Oh ang on monster, just gonna switch over to Life tap. Give me a sec! "

[Niuan]

<div></div><div>granted numbers have not been shared... I would imagine that this would slash DPS potential of our class.  Speak up voice an opinion, or we may be gimped back to second or even third tier dps.</div><div> </div>

[Sirlutt]

I want to see the stats on the too, I think I'll survive with a little less damage, hell i solo with non legendary all the time, so I think we will be ok.What I want them to not do, is start adding a bunch of poisons/potions that duplicate the abilities of other classes.  Image a group of 6, tank, healer and 4 scouts, all with a DD poison and a different "utility" poison (stun, mezz, fear, lifetap say) .. why would you put in a caster?.. got all your utility covered.  Need to change utility?.. NP put up a new poison.  I think that would be bad for us, and other classes.I'm open minded, sort of.  I'm apprehensive that it will result in a huge DPS nerf for us.  I like being able to do some nice damage.  I hope they deont nerf rangers, but instead upgrade the other classes.<div></div>

[nimbus2kgold]

<div>Ok.. deep breath... I havent seen any specific numbers on what these "new" poisions will do so im not going to panic... yet.</div><div> </div><div>I always have Shissar and Adestes up... always.  If it is a slight nerf, im ok, like if a poision that did 300 pnts now does 285... i can live with that.  But if what did 300 now does 100... well, i have issues. </div><div> </div><div>Im also wondering what "single charge items" means.  Is it you only get one poison charge per vial rather than 7? And if so is the timeline ( proc/hours )  going to change to reflect that?  Its going to get very very expensive if i have a poision vial that still costs 7g that only lasts for 200 procs instead of 1400 ( 200 proc x 7 charges). </div><div> </div><div>I do like that they will be stackable now though.  Thats going to clear up alot of bank and bag space <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Please Dev's... i beg you.. dont nerf it too bad. </div>

[Marcuzs]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fennir wrote:sucks, but this is again gonna hit the other scouts a lot harder than us.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually you have it backwards. We will get hit alot harder than any other class. The percentage of our damage from poisons is alot higher than any other class. So any decrease in damage to poisons will hit us the hardest. But no point in getting worked up over something we don't have all the info for. Just might want to stock up on Adeste's before the change to be safe, since current poisons already made will not change.

[Fennir]

No, I don't mean that mathematically, they are going to be hit harder than us.  Obviously we proc more.I mean, rangers can handle this nerf.  Some may not like it, but we have room for some damage reduction.  The other scouts have already been nerfed much worse than this.  They have less room to deal with this, imo.Also, I don't come from the school of thought that any 'nerf' is the end of the world.  This is minor at best, and reading the list of new poisons make me not even care.<div></div>

[Gailstryd]

<div></div>I'm very excited about the new poison life/mana taps those could be really useful, will also be interesting to see what they do with stun poisons.  The agro reducer poison may come in handy for some who like to burn hard, but in general with master 1 primal agility 55% hate reduction, I burn hard and never have agro anyways.  Should be interesting see what slot the agro reducer falls under for stackability and if any of that will change for the other poisons.  In all I like this change, yeah I'll miss my adeste's but it should only be a small cut back in dps for most Rangers and we haven't seen how hard the new poisons will hit yet so who knows.  I hope they stream line some of the other crafting proffessions now hehe maybe I will actually make one and get it to max lvl, tired of being one of a handful of peeps bored out of their mind by crafting, while the rest that have the most drab boring attention spans ever or can find the macro programs get to charge me out my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for stuff.

[Fennir]

<div></div>Yea, that's another reason why this is a good change.It's hard finding an alchemist willing to make me 50-75 vials of poisons at once.  They are a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to make, and I hate having to find a new guy every few weeks to send a lot of plat to.  Now poisons may be a lot easier to stock up on, and cheaper too.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:16 PM</span></p>

[Bayler_x]

This change has a lot of potential.  If done right, it'll open up all sorts of potion use that never really has existed before.We'll have to wait and see how it affects rangers compared to other scouts.  If the devs wanted to, they could lower the damage on DD poisons, and increase it on DoT poisons.  That would benefit our melee bretheren *far* more than us; effectively, they'd be creating ranger-poison and other-poison.  (But then, the lifetap, hate-reduction, and other poisons would be tricky for them to balance in a similar fasion.)<div></div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><p>I don't see anything good coming from these changes.</p><p>Nothing more than a dps nerf to all poison wielding classes.  Some of which are clawing and scratching for thier dps.</p><p>This is a not just a class defining change... It is a whole tree of classes that will greatly reduce the DPS potential.</p><p> </p><p><thumbs down></p>

[Deml]

<div></div><p>I agree with Leoric, not having Adeste's anymore is really going to suck, especially since I just ordered like 20 vials of it. lol I'm going to hold off any real reaction though till we can see some numbers, like what the DD poisons do, can we stack a dd poison, agro debuff poison and stun still?  are snare/slow/stun poisons in the same category now?  Is the Agro debuff and Str/offensive skill debuff in the same line so those won't stack, etc.  This will definitely be an interesting change for us, we'll have to wait till we can get word from someone testing things to find out what stacks with what and how much things go for now.</p><p>On the up side, having a DD poison now will be awesome, and if the damage is a drop from Adeste, while that will totally blow, it should shut the other classes up that keep screaming that we are over powered and do too much DPS since that will seriously nerf the damage we do.</p>

[illum]

<div></div>one point that was brought up that i didnt see a response to (i may have missed it...lots of posts on this topic), is how are poisons going to stack now?  can you still use a poison debuff with the DD?  THAT has me worried more than anything.

[Spectralmist]

<div>From what I've read in the Alchemist forum (and if you think Rangers are unhappy with this, check the Alche reaction out!  Don't forget to pack a lunch though, you'll be reading for a LONG time!), while the rare poisons are going away (mainly because since they are getting rid of subcombines in crafting, there won't be any rare LOAM to make the vials, since there won't be any rare INK), Beghn is planning on bumping the damage, etc on his new poisons, so that they will be better than the Common stuff we have now.</div><div> </div><div>Somewhere in between the current common and rare stuff.</div><div> </div><div>That said, I'll hold off on any judgements.</div><div> </div><div>I'm more concerned with the changes to tradeskilling.</div>

[Sulas]

I've been reading all day (barely getting any work done <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) and I still don't see any mention of stacking/ non-stacking.  Has anyone else seen anything?<div></div>

[Spectralmist]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sulas wrote:I've been reading all day (barely getting any work done <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) and I still don't see any mention of stacking/ non-stacking.  Has anyone else seen anything?<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Regarding Poisons?  According to one of Beghn's posts, poisons will no longer have multiple charges (1 shot and done, instead of having 7 charges), but they will stack.  He hasn't determined the max number per stack yet though.</p><p>I think I read somewhere that he also mentioned batch combines for poisons.  He wasn't sure about that either, but gave the following example - 3 at crude, 5 at shaped, 7, and then 10 at pristine.  Again, I'm going on memory on this, and he said he hadn't worked it out for sure.  If you want to see exactly what he said for yourself, Calthine has a stickied thread in the Tradeskill Forum that tracks Beghn's posts on the subject.</p>

[Gasisna]

I am not too worried about this change. I know poisons account for a decent chunk of damage, I just havent become dependant on them to do my job. They are a great enhancement but I have gone weeks after I have run out of poisons and have done just fine. I do however need to make the aquiantance of an alchemist on my server so I can get a more reliable supply going.

[King Leor]

<div></div>Well, some people may like the "variety" of the poisons they are making. Perosnally I do not. All i like to use is adestes and shissar, and phantasmic visions if soloing. SO if they drop the dmg on these just to add other useless effects than thats just stupid. I really dont need mana tap, power just isn't an issue, In raids I sure dont need life tap.. I can avoid every AE, and if I pull aggro im dead anyways and no amount of life tap will save me. I just wont some good DD ones to stick around.LeoricLevel 60 ranger

[Stormhawk]

<div></div>Well the good news is the Alchemists are fighting it.  Maybe they can solve the issue before a backlash from the pred / rogue community really has to happen.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Stormhawk on <span class="date_text">01-18-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:22 PM</span></p>

[Marcuzs]

<div></div><div>One thing to consider, while losing Adeste isn't good and the new poison will probably be somewhat less, the new teir 7 poisons will likely be higher than what Adeste currently is.</div>

[Wuyley]

Not true anymore. Beghn just posted this a bit ago<font color="#ffff00">Ok I have some updated news on what's going to be going on with potions/poisons.  Rare potion/poisons will be going in again.How this will function:When any class crafts a rare (Adept III) Combat Art/Spell scroll they will get a bi-product of a magic dust.  This dust will then be used in the crafting process for the rare potion/poison.  The current loams in the game will be the equivalent of that magic dust for the new recipes.  So a rare potion/poison might require something like this to craft. 1x Magic Dust1x Roots2x Loam8x Flamewrought Candles I'll be updating my first post as well with this new information.</font><div></div>

[Gareorn]

<div>Maybe we'll have a poison/potion that provides group strength, agility, etc. buffs.  Wouldn't it be ironic if this ended up being the DPS nerf to scouts that some wizards been screaming for and simultaniously provide scouts with the very utilities provided by those same wizards making them totally irrelevant. :smileytongue:</div>

[May Ham]

<div></div><div>Could someone please show me in the OP where they said the damage of the new poisons weren't going to equal the old Legendary ones? Just cause they got rid of the name "rare", or whatever, dosn't mean they aren't going to be powerful. Where did everyone get the idea that our dps is going to suffer? All I am reading is they are changing the way some of them will work and/or are going to be crafted.</div>

[GrayStorm]

<div>/sigh</div><div> </div><div>knew this day would come.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Sulas]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>May Ham wrote:<div></div><div>Could someone please show me in the OP where they said the damage of the new poisons weren't going to equal the old Legendary ones? Just cause they got rid of the name "rare", or whatever, dosn't mean they aren't going to be powerful. Where did everyone get the idea that our dps is going to suffer? All I am reading is they are changing the way some of them will work and/or are going to be crafted.</div><hr></blockquote>I can't cite a specific post, but Beghn did say that 'Legendary poisons weren't intended to be used all the time'.  This alone is a pretty good indicator that the damage the new poisons will decrease.  But I also got the impression they might be slightly higher than current regular poisons, but *that* could be wishful thinking.However, a recent development is just in.  They are going to add a 'Magic dust' as a by-product of making an Adept III, that will be used for rare poisons.So, bottom line... they're back in.</span></div>

[Jay]

<div></div><div>I've said it before, I'll say it again: Are they taking away our bows?</div><div> </div><div>No? Then we'll survive. Those of you crying 'stealth nerf' any time something *might* lower our DPS are being kinda weak, IMO. As long as you're paying for an EQ2 subscription, you're signing up to accept what comes our way. You have every right to be [Removed for Content] about something you don't like, but I'd expect a bit more resilience from a class that fought an ongoing uphill battle for the first 8 months of the game.</div><div> </div><div>Hey, I'll miss Adeste's if it disappears, but "nerf??" Grow a spine and grab your bow! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Sulas]

<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a13&message.id=8837#M8837">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a13&message.id=8837#M8837</a><div></div>A little more info.

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><div>I've said it before, I'll say it again: Are they taking away our bows?</div><div> </div><div>No? Then we'll survive. Those of you crying 'stealth nerf' any time something *might* lower our DPS are being kinda weak, IMO. As long as you're paying for an EQ2 subscription, you're signing up to accept what comes our way. You have every right to be [Removed for Content] about something you don't like, but I'd expect a bit more resilience from a class that fought an ongoing uphill battle for the first 8 months of the game.</div><div> </div><div>Hey, I'll miss Adeste's if it disappears, but "nerf??" Grow a spine and grab your bow! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>i'm not as worried about the damage as I am the cost.  If it costs the same in fuel to make the new stuff as the old, but its only 1 charge then our poisons just got 7x more expensive.  I am also worried about the ballance of other classes if we start getting all kinds of poisons to do the same as some of their class defining abilities.  Thats not right.</span></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div>What worried me the most wasn't the Damage or Cost. But rather the Class Distinction and Diversity lost. If all the Poisons are the same that is one less thing that seperates an OK ranger from a GREAT ranger. I think if everyone is using Generic_DDPoison01 it gets a bit boring and I like having the option to pay extra for my legendary stuff.</div><div> </div><div>I didn't see Attack Speed Slow on Beghns list, so I guess I will horde 100 Bottles of Horrendous Atrophy before this goes live.</div>

[Stormhawk]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div> </div><div>I didn't see Attack Speed Slow on Beghns list, so I guess I will horde 100 Bottles of Horrendous Atrophy before this goes live.</div><hr></blockquote></span><span><i>Essence of Turgur: Poison based slow.</i>There you go <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Stormhawk wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div> </div><div>I didn't see Attack Speed Slow on Beghns list, so I guess I will horde 100 Bottles of Horrendous Atrophy before this goes live.</div><hr></blockquote></span><span><i>Essence of Turgur: Poison based slow.</i>There you go <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah I am unsure wether this was an Attack Speed or Run Speed slow. Could be either.

[Niuan]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><div>I've said it before, I'll say it again: Are they taking away our bows?</div><div> </div><div>No? Then we'll survive. Those of you crying 'stealth nerf' any time something *might* lower our DPS are being kinda weak, IMO. As long as you're paying for an EQ2 subscription, you're signing up to accept what comes our way. You have every right to be [Removed for Content] about something you don't like, but I'd expect a bit more resilience from a class that fought an ongoing uphill battle for the first 8 months of the game.</div><div> </div><div>Hey, I'll miss Adeste's if it disappears, but "nerf??" Grow a spine and grab your bow! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote><p>There is great envy in alot of classes because of what we can do.... To have a passive outlook that sony will take care of us is silly.  I say be proud of your class, fight nails and teeth for how you feel your class should go.  Your opinion and views is all you have to preserve the forward progress this class has taken.</p><p>So if our damage is reduced indirectly in something that is advertised as purely a tradeskilling "upgrade"...  Kick it, Scream it from a mountain that we pay the bills in this game.  Don't just roll with the punches...</p><p> </p><p>my 2 cents</p>

[Teksun]

OK, so now I'll be able to carry 20 doses in one backpack slot instead of 7. That sounds good, other than that i'll have to wait and see what the stats are...<div></div>

[Bayler_x]

<span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Stormhawk wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div> </div><div>I didn't see Attack Speed Slow on Beghns list, so I guess I will horde 100 Bottles of Horrendous Atrophy before this goes live.</div><hr></blockquote></span><span><i>Essence of Turgur: Poison based slow.</i>There you go <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah I am unsure wether this was an Attack Speed or Run Speed slow. Could be either.<hr></blockquote>Attack speed.  In EQ1, Turgur's Insects was an important shaman spell that slowed mobs' attack speeds.</span><div></div>

[Deml]

<div>Look through the list.  There is one new poison that is a Poison based SNARE and one that is a Poison based Slow.  Turgor's, the slow one, will be attack speed over movement.</div>

[Jay]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Niuan wrote:<p>There is great envy in alot of classes because of what we can do.... To have a passive outlook that sony will take care of us is silly.  I say be proud of your class, fight nails and teeth for how you feel your class should go.  Your opinion and views is all you have to preserve the forward progress this class has taken.</p><p>So if our damage is reduced indirectly in something that is advertised as purely a tradeskilling "upgrade"...  Kick it, Scream it from a mountain that we pay the bills in this game.  Don't just roll with the punches...</p><p>my 2 cents</p><hr></blockquote><p>I didn't express myself clearly - I never said "Sony will take care of us" or "don't express your concerns." If you seriously think I'm not proud of my class, read the archives in the forum over the past year or so.</p><p>By all means, make your wishes known and provide information to SOE as necessary. Expressing concern is one thing, whining and crying out about stealth nerfs every time there's a change that affects rangers is another. Paying for a subscription only means that you get to play Sony's game on their terms - it doesn't mean that they're in any way obligated to do what we want just b/c we scream about it in a forum.</p><p>Basically, show some pride in our class by displaying a bit of resilience and stoicism. The Chicken Little posts serve absolutely no purpose on this forum.</p>

[Marcuzs]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><div>I've said it before, I'll say it again: Are they taking away our bows?</div><div> </div><div>No? Then we'll survive. Those of you crying 'stealth nerf' any time something *might* lower our DPS are being kinda weak, IMO. As long as you're paying for an EQ2 subscription, you're signing up to accept what comes our way. You have every right to be [Removed for Content] about something you don't like, but I'd expect a bit more resilience from a class that fought an ongoing uphill battle for the first 8 months of the game.</div><div> </div><div>Hey, I'll miss Adeste's if it disappears, but "nerf??" Grow a spine and grab your bow! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>i'm not as worried about the damage as I am the cost.  If it costs the same in fuel to make the new stuff as the old, but its only 1 charge then our poisons just got 7x more expensive.  I am also worried about the ballance of other classes if we start getting all kinds of poisons to do the same as some of their class defining abilities.  Thats not right.</span></div><hr></blockquote>The combine wont make 1 charge at a time. Beghn said each combine would produce 3 to 10 based on if the combine was crude or pristine.

[Gailstryd]

<div></div><div>Kaeros you forget that there is only so many of us that actually weathered the whole last year and so many months.  Most of the new rangers have no idea what it was like before LU13 and imho that's where we'll see the most whiners.  I'm not worried about the alchy/poison change, I look forward to it.  And was that Khalan I saw back there somewhere hehe woot whats up!</div>

[Jay]

<div></div><p>Hehe aye Khalan's back, woot! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But yeah, I hear ya Rhanin... thought that after I posted, it's clear that so many people now *expect* to be as powerful as LU13 made us, when I'm still in the mindset of the 8 months previous to that, so I'm just thankful for what we have. This change to poisons isn't even in the game yet, the TS Dev is changing his mind from one day to the next, and it just saddens me to see people (admittedly a small minority, praise be) getting so dramatic over something that isn't even close to implementation. (IMO Beghn is kinda creating the problem by posting his ideas and potential changes before they've been fully developed.)</p>

[brandi7920]

<div></div><p>I'm going to have to agree with you, Jay. While I love my Adeste and Phantasmic (never leave home without them), it was not all that long ago that we were low-man on the totem pole(and I never even knew - I was too busy having a ton of fun with my Ranger!). The thing is, I love my Ranger - I don't care about the numbers. I love the play style. While it's fun to take on the harder stuff that I would have run screaming_like_a_little_girl from pre-LU13, my Ranger is still going to be a blast...regardless of my DPS. (why the HECK do I have Diana Ross' 'I will Survive' in my head /runs_screaming)</p><p>One thing I've learned from the only rpg I've ever played (EQ2) is that things change.</p><p>I accept.</p>

[4lta]

<div>All i can say is why the heck dont they fix any of the many bugs instead of nerfing the scouts all the dang time... like the prismatic 2.0 dosent proc off bows and rathers sucks compaired to the 1.0 [Removed for Content]  why cant u do something helpful this poison nerf is gonna suck besides the stackablilty thats all u needed to do in the first place not revamp our allready exspensive DMG and costs of arrows for less dmg and take us off the top tier of dps I hate u soe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</div>

[Niuan]

<div></div><div>While the EULA deems that we can expect changes in classes and we should.  We don't have to agree with those changes.  A more powerful factor even more powerful than the EULA is the bottom line a game makes.  Early EQ1 days I believe the Devs had a dream and a purpose and sometimes did things that hurt the bottom line for ideals...  This is not MMORG gaming as we see today.   All game descisions are made with bottom line in mind.  If enough people show a dislike for a change we cannot directly make them change it... but we can indirectly by showing enough people consider this a high importance to thier game enjoyment wether they outright quite or not may effect the bottom line on how many subscriptions eq2 has.  While a good number or *old school* rangers have an idealistic attitude that I admire, I believe Sony does not hold these same ideals in kind.  In the end someone has to write the report every month to show the bossman how many subscriptions was made and lost and why.  I do not think it is right, I do not scream or whine for every peddly change.  But I have a voice and will continue to bring it peoples attention when something effects my ingame enjoyment.  Because if enough people feel the same way...  right or wrong...  you will alter the coarse of the development process because bottom line is in jeopardy.</div><div> </div><div>Folks may not have the best means of expressing thier feelings, some may not show constructive critisism on where the game is going.  But every poster is expressing thier feelings in some form or another.  Power of community and numbers can and will alter where eq2 goes... not that I agree... Its just a fact.</div>

[Gareorn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>Hehe aye Khalan's back, woot! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But yeah, I hear ya Rhanin... thought that after I posted, it's clear that so many people now *expect* to be as powerful as LU13 made us, when I'm still in the mindset of the 8 months previous to that, so I'm just thankful for what we have. This change to poisons isn't even in the game yet, the TS Dev is changing his mind from one day to the next, and it just saddens me to see people (admittedly a small minority, praise be) getting so dramatic over something that isn't even close to implementation. (IMO Beghn is kinda creating the problem by posting his ideas and potential changes before they've been fully developed.)</p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually Jay, weird as this feels, my opinion is different.  I'm glad Beghn posted his thoughts, I just think he did it in the wrong forum.  Alchies aren't the ones using the potions/poisons, adventurers are and they are the ones most affect by the proposed changes.  And before anyone jumps on me, yes I know that alchies adventure too, but I digress...</p><p>I had only one concern and Beghn gave me some Ranger lovin.  My post is on page 8 if I remember correctly.  I can see that he is responding to genuine concerns is making adjustments accordingly to his porposed changes.</p><p>I kind of like the proposed changes so far.  It'll make me feel more like the Ranger I play in EQ1 with all the possible utilities, and I like that.  I mean, face it, right now we have diddley for utility and I don't really care about a slight reduction in DPS.  I realize that many of us measure our usefulness only by the amount of DPS we put out, but I've measured my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and I'm quite happy with how it serves me.:smileyhappy:</p><p>Uhhh...  That last paragraph isn't directed at you Jay or to anyone else specifically.  I'm generalizing and trying to be somewhat humorous.  I agree with you that the drama is a little premature.  Look at how many people cancelled their accounts after LU13 becuase they couldn't kite anymore.   I sometimes wonder how many realized their mistake after reading the forums and quietly came crawling back.</p>

[ChaosUndivided]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div><p>Hehe aye Khalan's back, woot! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But yeah, I hear ya Rhanin... thought that after I posted, it's clear that so many people now *expect* to be as powerful as LU13 made us, when I'm still in the mindset of the 8 months previous to that, so I'm just thankful for what we have. This change to poisons isn't even in the game yet, the TS Dev is changing his mind from one day to the next, and it just saddens me to see people (admittedly a small minority, praise be) getting so dramatic over something that isn't even close to implementation. (IMO Beghn is kinda creating the problem by posting his ideas and potential changes before they've been fully developed.)</p><hr></blockquote><p>I was never gone :smileywink:</p><p>But on topic, Yes I think the removal of Rare Poisons/Potions was a bad idea, no it wasn't the end of the world, Yes I'm exstatic they are staying in game.</p><p>Too many people forget how far we have come as a class and only think about the now.</p><p>Will there be Nerfs in the Future? You can count on it.</p><p>Will we loose DPS, Yup.</p><p>Will we move on and keep rallying for game balance for all classes, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] right.</p><p>People need to understand that no ONE thing makes rangers such an awesome class, it is a Combination of things and as will all things sometimes balance is required.</p><p>I won't lie, I have used common T6 once ever, and otherwise I only use legendary, diversity is good and looks like what we will be getting is just that, I can't wait. Thankfully Beghn listened to his playerbase and has seen some sense.</p><p> </p>

[Sulas]

<div></div>edit:  nevermind<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sulas on <span class="date_text">01-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:14 PM</span></p>

[Deml]

<div></div>You weren't gone?  Then where did you get to?  I haven't seen you in game in awhile.  Miss bsing with you and having you in that chat channel.  Need someone else to pick on Sab with me.

[Voelfg]

<div></div><p>my biggest concern is the lack of different type of DoT/DD poisons, under the new system we get 1 DD and 1 DoT, while under the old system, we had a choice of 4 poisons with varying amounts of DD and DOT and that doesn't even include the rares which would double the number to 8 per tier.</p><p>Personally, I like having the flexibility of chosing the amount of DD and DOT based on the situation. Granted I usually went with the very large DD, cuz if the poison proced again it wiped the previous one away.</p><p> </p>

[Bayler_x]

<span><blockquote><hr>Voelfgar wrote:<div></div><p>my biggest concern is the lack of different type of DoT/DD poisons, under the new system we get 1 DD and 1 DoT, while under the old system, we had a choice of 4 poisons with varying amounts of DD and DOT and that doesn't even include the rares which would double the number to 8 per tier.</p><p>Personally, I like having the flexibility of chosing the amount of DD and DOT based on the situation. <b>Granted I usually went with the very large DD, cuz if the poison proced again it wiped the previous one away.</b></p><hr></blockquote>So did everyone else.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Really, there's no need for all those different types - you're best off always using a very large DD or a very large DoT, depending on whether your poisons last (on average) shorter than or longer than one tick.  The inbetween poisons aren't as efficient. But by getting rid of those, things are less cluttered.  It's easier for consumers to find what they need.  The names will make sense.  And the addition of other poison types, like lifetap and deagro, should prove quite useful.</span><div></div>

[Cron]

Hey guys.... This is like everything else.  We have seen changes before and we have weathered them.  At this point, we don't even know that there is anything to weather.  Take it easy, wait a few weeks to see what happens.  If it hurts us, we will work to get it changed like we always have.  Together. Always Adapt and Overcome.<div></div>

[Zholain]

<font size="2">Well said, Narsan.</font><div></div>